Baptist Medical Center plans $200 million tower

[CS Foltz]

stjr...........have heard stories saying both were going to be running it and this was from persons who should know, but to be honest ....I do not know for sure which one. It would make sense to keep it in house but I can't say one way or the other! It would make sense to extend Skyway in that direction to handle Hostpital employee's and office workers on that side of the River, but Stadium could use the boost and if property is used at the river for a new Convention Center, now we are really talking!

[thelakelander]

From the article:

The improvements include providing a shuttle so employees can park at the Kings Avenue Parking Garage and ensuring workers have shifts that avoid them being on the road during the usual rush-hour traffic times.

So there is no way to get these employees to use the skyway?

Lake, how would you do that?  Have them drive to the garage, get on the Skyway, go a few blocks to Prudential, then get on a shuttle for the last leg under the Acosta bridge?  I suspect Baptist is thinking like so many others, myself included:  That is just too much
trouble.  Easier to board the shuttle at the garage and head straight to
work.  Another example of why the Skyway has so few riders.

I was thinking if i'm JTA or the city i'd look into constructing a ped walkway from San Marco station over the Acosta and FEC RR. That would make my transit investment accessible to two of the Southbank's largest employers.

[CS Foltz]

lake...........didn't Tampa/St Pete have a pedestrian walkway that was discontinued? Walkway does make sense if cost viable and can be fitted into existing footprint for both of them. Not just sure how that could be designed but covered all weather system would be nice. Robert A. Heinlein( I think I spelt it correctly!) wrote about moving cities a few years back and if Jacksonville is looking to become famous for something besides______________ (fill in the blank!) this might be something! One more slice of intermodal transit system maybe!

[thelakelander]

No. Tampa had a peoplemover that connected a parking garage with a closed shopping center removed.

[stjr]

I was thinking if i'm JTA or the city i'd look into constructing a ped walkway from San Marco station over the Acosta and FEC RR. That would make my transit investment accessible to two of the Southbank's largest employers.

Lake, I see.  Well, the walkway "investment" (likely, millions), especially to get permits, meet stringent FDOT and FEC specs, buy liability insurance to cover FDOT, FEC, and Baptist, etc., may pay for years worth of shuttle rides.

It seems to me that the all-weather Nemours/Baptist walkway, while no doubt more elaborate (or is it?  Would Baptist want the same here?) cost north of $4 million (if memory serves me right) and that was years ago (1996 or so).  And, your proposed "connection" would still be 1 to 2 blocks walking distance to most Baptist buildings.  So, now you would have: Drive, Park, Skyway, Crosswalk, Walk to get to work.  I don't see it

But thanks for working so hard to help JTA find Skyway riders.  I'll see if I can get them to send you a "thank you" note  

[thelakelander]

In most cases, if you use transit you're going to have to walk a block or two or more. While a walkway could cost upwards of $3 to $4 million, in the long run it makes everything west of the FEC tracks accessible.  As the medical center and Aetna properties build out, that add thousands of riders to the system in the future. Anyway, i'm just looking at the larger picture of eliminating public transit and private shuttle service duplication.

[CS Foltz]

thanks lake..........I knew there was something down there, just not sure what! Not sure if a pedestrian walkway would be the answer or not but it is something to think about! Medical Center and Aetna will probably build out long before the downtown area will because of access via roads on that side of the river and the proximity to I95! Downtown does not have that which makes a rail system of some sort even more needed!

[tufsu1]

I am really glad to see someone is building something without resorting to JEDC or City tax incentives.............now this is private enterprise at its best! How about that situation tufsu..............no tax dollars at work!

I guess Baptist makes no money off of Medicare...you know that thing we all pay taxes for?

btw...I was at a forum w/ Hugh Greene and his wife this evening...Hugh will be chair of the Jax. Chamber next year....we spoke about the need for Jax. to begin investing in transit mobility and how the Chamber can support the issue...he agreed.

[stjr]

In most cases, if you use transit you're going to have to walk a block or two or more.

True, Lake.  But... here, as in with other concepts I have seen connected with using the Skyway, you are asking someone to drive into town, park in a large garage, walk across said garage AND an extended connector to the Kings Road Skyway station, wait for and ride the Skyway, most likely  standing up and packed like a sardine, exit the Skyway at Prudential and then take stairs/escalator up to an elevated walkway, cross over multiple lanes and on/off ramps of the Acosta, cross FEC, and then take stairs/escalator down (I would guess some three stories at least) to grade and then walk, exposed to the elements, several blocks across the Baptist Campus and through its mazes of hallways, etc.

I think getting people that are commuting to work by car to do all that is far beyond what Jax will accept anytime soon.  My experience is employees will fight to the death to have the closest parking space to the front door of their employer.  Your proposition is a sea change in that behavior.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the behavior you propose, but, I think a scaled down version is what will work in Jax for the foreseeable future.  This is where I differ regarding the multi-mode transit you and Ock envision.  I think there is a very low limit to how many mode changes (maybe only one and I'll consider walking more than 1 or 2 blocks a mode change for this purpose) Jax commuters (especially ones using cars most of the way) will accept and most Skyway scenarios (with its infrequent stations and limited range in an urban setting) I envision put you over this limit.

[thelakelander]

In most cases, if you use transit you're going to have to walk a block or two or more.

True, Lake.  But... here, as in with other concepts I have seen connected with using the Skyway, you are asking someone to drive into town, park in a large garage, walk across said garage AND an extended connector to the Kings Road Skyway station, wait for and ride the Skyway, most likely  standing up and packed like a sardine, exit the Skyway at Prudential and then take stairs/escalator up to an elevated walkway, cross over multiple lanes and on/off ramps of the Acosta, cross FEC, and then take stairs/escalator down (I would guess some three stories at least) to grade and then walk, exposed to the elements, several blocks across the Baptist Campus and through its mazes of hallways, etc.

With most major systems you end up going floors up and down or walking over a block underground to get to a train platform.  For example, this is true with many transit stations in established cities like NYC, DC, Chicago and even Atlanta.  

In the short term, a ped walkway makes Baptist and Aetna accessible to the skyway, meaning a private duplicate shuttle system could be bypassed.  In the long run, I'm assuming as a part of a master plan that commuter rail and streetcars will end up carrying most transit users into downtown and onto the skyway to access destinations near its stations.  With this in mind, if the skyway is to serve anything west of the Acosta you're going to need a pedestrian overpass to get across the Acosta and FEC tracks anyway.  If a Southbank commuter rail station is constructed, this same overpass could connect with such a facility.  Being south of the FEC tracks, it also makes it feasible to extend reliable transit into San Marco without the worry of getting across the FEC.  

By the way, this image contains stations in three random cities and the Kings Avenue station at the same scale for comparison's sake.  I've sketched a potential route for a ped overpass that ties in the Aetna garage and Baptist Medical Center to the skyway and potentially a Southbank commuter rail station.  



Blue = potential ped overpass (which could be designed to protect from the elements like the Chicago El's Blue Line example shown above.)  

Solid Red = potential Southbank commuter rail platform

Light Red = potential infill development sites

I think getting people that are commuting to work by car to do all that is far beyond what Jax will accept anytime soon.  My experience is employees will fight to the death to have the closest parking space to the front door of their employer.  Your proposition is a sea change in that behavior.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the behavior you propose, but, I think a scaled down version is what will work in Jax for the foreseeable future.  This is where I differ regarding the multi-mode transit you and Ock envision.  I think there is a very low limit to how many mode changes (maybe only one and I'll consider walking more than 1 or 2 blocks a mode change for this purpose) Jax commuters (especially ones using cars most of the way) will accept and most Skyway scenarios (with its infrequent stations and limited range in an urban setting) I envision put you over this limit.[/b]

I like to look at the bigger picture.  Whatever goes on with the skyway should be done in coordination with a larger overall vision of what we want our transit system to be.  If we're not going to remove the skyway, we need to better integrate it with it's surroundings because it will become the final conduit to those locations for other proposed modes.  

Anyway, I don't think Jacksonville residents are any different from residents in places like Salt Lake City and Charlotte.  If you design a reliable mass transit system that take people in the areas where it serves to a variety of destinations it will get decent ridership and encourage additional adjacent development.  Based on several examples across the country, I also believe mode is not a significant factor as long as its reliable, efficient and connectivity with other modes is seamless.  

[fieldafm]

In the short term, a ped walkway makes Baptist and Aetna accessible to the skyway, meaning a private duplicate shuttle system could be bypassed

Interesting idea... however, to compare apples to apples Baptist is open 24 hours a day 7 seven days a week.  The skyway is not.  Would this proposed shuttle service mirror the skyway's hours(which would most certainly be an unnecessary duplication of services), or would the shuttle service also be available extended hours?

[thelakelander]

^Excellent question.  While the skyway's hours certainly need to be extended to become a reliable system, I'm not sure of what the shuttle's hours will be or what the peak employment hours of the hospital actually are.

[Overstreet]

BMC runs their own shuttle(s) to their remote parking lots.  JTA is not envolved.

[Seraphs]

To me the walkway deal seams feasible.  This would benefit Baptist workers and  visitors as well.

[thelakelander]

Maybe its just me but we constructed a $184 million transit line to transport people throughout the Southbank and downtown. The lack of connectivity, reliability and mass transit route duplication are major reasons why it has and continues to struggle to attract riders. Whether we believe Jax residents will use mass transit is moot when real options for usage have not been on the table since 1936 (the year the streetcar system stopped running).  It's insane to not connect and make that investment accessible to places that employ thousands of workers and guests and then call it a failure when no one goes out of their way to use it.