Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[thelakelander]

For those who don't believe we have a large enough population to justify commuter rail, Salt Lake City and Albuquerque are two smaller communities with viable commuter rail systems in place.

Salt Lake City: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FrontRunner

Albuquerque: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_Rail_Runner_Express

We must keep in mind that rail builds density, not the other way around.  In addition, instead of worrying about reaching certain density levels, all forms of rail should be designed to efficiently connect actual key attractions, destinations, employers and neighborhoods.  If that can be done, you'll find success even in a city like Jacksonville.  If you don't, your project will fail even in a city like NYC.

[hillary supporter]

Your two examples do give credence to mass transit based around commuter rail corridors. All in metropolitan areas significantly smaller than Jacksonville. I must have a prejudice against our citizens using it.based around the lack of utilization of Skyway.
I mean, with implication of such within 5 years, it does seem a constructive and wise move forward. I just believe local powers that be will base their conclusions on past experience and not future challenges (such as inevitable auto commuter congestion)

[thelakelander]

The key is to look at specific corridors and the environment around them instead of overall community population size and density.  In Jacksonville, you have existing rail corridors that will result in different ridership numbers.

If you put commuter rail on the CSX line running to Callahan, it would fail due to a lack of viable destinations and population north of DT, lining that rail corridor.  On the other hand, a line from DT to Fleming Island would result in higher ridership because that route ties in Fleming Island, Orange Park and NAS Jax with Roosevelt Square, FSCJ Kent, Murray Hill, Riverside/Avondale and DT.  It also directly parallels US 17 and Blanding, two of our metro area's most congested roads.  

When you look at Salt Lake City, there numbers are higher because they have a integrated transit system that connects residents with a number of attractions and destinations within walking distance of rail corridors.  Despite being a larger overall community, Nashville's MCS line struggles because it does not.  Trains in these two cities also run at completely different frequencies.  You can catch a FrontRunner train every day of the week.

http://www.rideuta.com/ridingUTA/viewSchedule.aspx?abbreviation=701&dir=1&service=4&signup=101&pdaView=False

On the other hand, Nashville's Music City Star's service is severely limited.

http://www.rta-ride.org/ticketsschedules.html#schedules

This results in one system being reliable for multiple groups of people (tourist, commuters, joyriders, shoppers, sporting event spectators, airport travelers, etc.), while the other is strictly limited to commuters who live and work along that line with a schedule that works with the time MSC trains run.

However, despite it's struggles the Nashville system is a great example of constructing an affordable "no-frills" commuter rail system.  32 miles of commuter rail for $40 million.  In Jacksonville, we struggle to get single highway overpasses built at that cost.

Nashville's Music City Star


Salt Lake City's FrontRunner

[Keith-N-Jax]

IT seems like more discussion is done on this MB than in COJ and JTA put together. I am not saying everything said on here the city/jta should implement, but you cant deny there's some pretty good ideas on here and there free.

[tufsu1]

I dont believe we have a large enough population to justify commuter rail corridors ( as in Washington DC).

DC's primary system is Metro, which is considered heavy rail (not really commuter rail)...VRE and MARC are the commuter rail lines in the area.

One of the biggest misunderstandings in the transit world is the difference between streetcars, light rail, heavy rail, commuter rail, and high speed rail.

For example, Tampa is trying to get folks to approve a 1 cent sales tax to fund light rail (among other things)...yet I constantly see newspaper articles calling it commuter rail.

[SightseerLounge]

Why build a streetcar in Jacksonville? A Streetcar should be built in Jacksonville because it is a good idea... That is exactly why a streetcar won't be built in Jacksonville for the next hundred years. People in Jacksonville are just too comfortable with sticking to the highways! That's the way some interests like people to think!

It is funny that streetcars were the norm about one hundred years ago. Now, they are only found in pictures. The pictures are even scattered! The only time that people see the history is when the old tracks are accidentally dug up from some type of construction! It's like finding a dinosaur skeleton!

Even if the streetcars were returned downtown, people would start to notice! (Florida-Georgia game just to get everyone's minds wondering. I would go to a Jaguars game, if there were a decent Commuter/Streetcar/Light Rail option, just because I could. Who am I kidding? I would go to freeload off all of the tailgate food!)

When I go past Terry Parker, I see all of those kids waiting on the city bus to come and pick them up! That is in Arlington! I can imagine if a train came every hour, even 30 min! Trains connected to downtown and all of the kids will be skipping. (If there were stores to go to shop! Okay, maybe Regency! No, that would be to obvious!)

[AaroniusLives]

Wow, this was a crazy thread to read. I vanish for a bit and this is what y'all do? 

From tufsu1:

DC's primary system is Metro, which is considered heavy rail (not really commuter rail)...VRE and MARC are the commuter rail lines in the area.

That's not entirely accurate. DC's heavy rail system was designed, much like San Fran's BART, to be a hybrid of a subway-style heavy rail system and a commuter rail system. You can see that reality along the edges of Metro, where the character of the system changes to serve automobile-centric communities.

What is instructive about the Washington Metro involves how critical it is in the reformation and transformation of inner ring suburbia. Many stations along the Metro have been used as the catalyst to create density, walkability, and the beginnings of true urban fabric. Some were planned that way from the get-go (like the Orange Line/Blue Line inner stops in Arlington,) and some are recreating suburbia into something else (like Silver Spring and Rockville.) Hence, the Metro serves both factions (areas already dense needing transit, and areas that become more dense with transit.)

hillary supporter wrote:

The city seems so spread out that rapid fixed mass transit appears a challenging task. mass transit needs a strong residential presence to be successful , in our case. DC metro system works as mass commute corridors in an area of several million, not dependent on a residential population .  Jax population is not there,though foresight should  be used.

Correct. DC has critical mass regarding population and density. Moreover, the central core of DC wasn't ever truly hollowed out and remained viable and integral, so there was a need for transit to the core. Metropolitan Washington also has the benefit of having a comprehensive, 1st-rate, integrated transportation system that people of all classes willingly use. They're currently building streetcars up here as well, to compliment what is already used, and already there. Finally, it totally sucks to drive in DC. It's much easier to convince people to get out of their cars when the experience inside of them frustrates and infuriates on a daily basis.

That doesn't mean that Jax shouldn't get streetcars...foresight indeed helped build the Metro and that foresight has created modern DC.

Regarding the conversion of the Skyway to a NYC Highline Park, I personally don't think that's feasible, specifically because of the density issues. However, a streetcar system integrated into the existing Skyway? Done. Sold. Why not use what you already have?

thelakelander said it best:

It makes no sense to fight 20 miles of traffic to then park in a garage to go the last 1/2 mile on the skyway.  If we can get commuter rail and streetcars off the ground and integrated with the skyway, we can have the option to leave our cars right in our driveways and garages.

The "options" part is really the key to selling mass transit, I think. And you hit it right on the nose that without transit-oriented development and a series of linked nodes of transit connecting it all, there's not really an option to leave your car behind.

I've said this on these boards many a time before, but there's also the idea of political will. Are there enough people who want mass transit and are over driving?

[hillary supporter]

I've said this on these boards many a time before, but there's also the idea of political will. Are there enough people who want mass transit and are over driving?

I dont think so.  Recent development of our road system aggravates our cause.  I mean, the jax road system is very competent compared to others here in the U.S.  I think continued operation of the Skyway is mandatory, to the objection of stjr, though he has a point. There are a (very small) number of daily users that are dependent on it, DT residents that work in the urban core.  Perhaps this is the issue that keeps it running today. As many have said here, its the principle at hand-as hard as thats for many to accept.

Insert Quote
Why build a streetcar in Jacksonville? A Streetcar should be built in Jacksonville because it is a good idea... That is exactly why a streetcar won't be built in Jacksonville for the next hundred years. People in Jacksonville are just too comfortable with sticking to the highways! That's the way some interests like people to think!

Oh yes  So true!

[thelakelander]

The will is not there with the current administration.  However, 2011 offers great political possibilities with the upcoming mayoral election.  In the meantime, planning continues as the JTA, North Florida TPO and the COJ PDD all are moving forward with laying the foundation to fund and implement rail locally.  At the rate things are going, I believe our initial rail line will be operational in five years.

[SightseerLounge]

That doesn't mean that Jax shouldn't get streetcars...foresight indeed helped build the Metro and that foresight has created modern DC.

Regarding the conversion of the Skyway to a NYC Highline Park, I personally don't think that's feasible, specifically because of the density issues. However, a streetcar system integrated into the existing Skyway? Done. Sold. Why not use what you already have?

The elevated parts of the the skyway that could be used would be the ones that could accomodate LRVs like many cities have...More lines could be made using what is left of those sections. Where the "Skyway" portion ends, the lines could go to grade level, and they could connect to the existing rails...

Aaronius, if you are thinking what I'm thinking, then we're on the same page. If you are just thinking that the skyway should be used in its current form with future streetcar/light rail at the ends, then I can agree with that as well!

Personally, I would want one type of rail on the system, but anything is better than nothing! I'll ride!

[hillary supporter]

The will is not there with the current administration.  However, 2011 offers great political possibilities with the upcoming mayoral election.

Agreed, this is a very important point for us to draw, and a point we of this blog can actually influence, directly. Also, in my opinion, stjr's point is right and must be addressed in order to move ahead on rapid fixed mass transit in Jacksonville. I think we all agree that at this time from just past 20 years experience, a residential presence is necessary to justify our only outlet of fixed mass transit, Skyway. Accordingly, establishment of downtown resident through lower income housing seems to me to be a first priority. I know many here will object to such through their own opinions and experiences, but in doing so, we could justify the use of Skyway as a sustainable commuting option, which could answer those objections raised by stjr (and a majority of our citizens)
Such  a first step can only be accomplished with a liberal administration, and here im gonna stop naming names as i realize many are becoming annoyed.

[thelakelander]

Personally, I would want one type of rail on the system, but anything is better than nothing! I'll ride!

An important thing to remember is that most cities with well used mass transit systems have more than one mode.  For example, DC not only has the Metro (heavy rail), that city is also served by MARC (commuter rail), VRE (commuter rail), Amtrak (regional) and Amtrak Acela (high speed).  Soon, streetcars will be added to the mix.  In Dallas you have DART (light rail), TRE (commuter rail) and the M-Line (streetcar).  In Miami you have Metrorail (heavy rail), Metromover (peoplemover) and Tri-Rail (commuter rail).  There is no such thing as "one size fits all" with mass transit.  Transit modes should be used that complement and integrate the best with whatever corridor or environment their designed to serve.  In Jax, this could mean that the skyway serves downtown while a streetcar is more suitable for Riverside/Avondale, commuter rail for Orange Park and BRT for Regency.  As long as the agency running the services can make seamless transferring a possibility, multiple modes aren't a problem.

[CS Foltz]

As long as the agency running the services can make seamless transferring a possibility, multiple modes aren't a problem.

lake I agree! Our biggest problem, along with a drastic lack of funds, is the City lacks the will to implement any system beyond $kyway and BRT! The powers that be lack the vision as well as means to go in the right direction, but that should change with the next administration! Atleast we can hope so!

[AaroniusLives]

The will is not there with the current administration.  However, 2011 offers great political possibilities with the upcoming mayoral election.  In the meantime, planning continues as the JTA, North Florida TPO and the COJ PDD all are moving forward with laying the foundation to fund and implement rail locally.  At the rate things are going, I believe our initial rail line will be operational in five years.

The will I was referring to here involves the people, the electorate. There needs to be a critical mass of people that want and need mass transit. Moreover, there needs to be a comprehensive plan to create a complete mass transit system (which, it seems, y'all are doing.) Finally, there needs to be the foresight to envision a more crowded, more resource-starved, and more pedestrian Jacksonville.

For Jacksonville, foresight is key, because at present, the metro area isn't in dire need of alternative ways to transport people. Foresight helped create Washington DC as it is today, and I highly recommend this http://www.amazon.com/Great-Society-Subway-Washington-Landscape/dp/080188246X bookto illustrate how foresight and planning created the Metro, and how the Metro transformed DC, the 'burbs and the idea of this city.

[tufsu1]

Our biggest problem, along with a drastic lack of funds, is the City lacks the will to implement any system beyond $kyway and BRT! The powers that be lack the vision as well as means to go in the right direction, but that should change with the next administration! Atleast we can hope so!

I am tiring of your constant complaints about what the City, JTA, FDOT, etc. can't do right and how much things cost....I thought you were a transit propoenent, but yet you rip apart the Skyway and BRT...so please provide us with some solid ideas that you would support and at what financial level they would be acceptable.