Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[stjr]

This whole 'the sky way isnt being used' stuff is malarkey, incidentally.

...To be frank the whole lost cause of being against the skyway is a little tiring.  Really?  The suggestion has been heard and noted.  But until you guys can figure out something more complex than building bus shelters, I can't take your suggestions about dynamiting the only transit bridge that exists in the city seriously.  And I hope no one else does either.

Stephen, I am calling in Ock. He is an expert on posts beneath oneself.  I am nominating this one.

Nice respect for opinions different than yours.  If you can't take the heat, maybe you should leave the kitchen.

I thought this was an "open" forum by the way.

[thelakelander]

Lake, to your points about better alternatives, I have already agreed with you - let's build those alternatives first.  We will then collectively come to one of two conclusions:

(1) The alternatives are so far superior to the Skyway that it is totally obvious we should not run the Skyway as a parallel or overlapping system and/or that such alternatives fail to adequately feed riders to the existing Skyway system confirming its worthlessness beyond a question.  With either result, we abandon the Skyway for something far better.

(2) Those alternatives will fulfill Ock's and your dreams to the fullest and all that "connectivity" will boost the Skyway to convincing levels versus the costs to maintain it.  It lives to see another day.

I just don't want another dollar put in "growing" the Skyway until the above is accomplished.  And, we need to pursue those alternatives "yesterday" because we are flushing tens of millions in Skyway operating expenses down the drain every year it continues as it is.  As the T-U has stated, the Skyway's clock is ticking.  Some of us already think it's time has run out.  For those who think it deserves some more time, if streetcars don't come soon, it likely will run out of time sooner than later.

With this post, we are on the same page. However, I would like to maximize the existing skyway and help reduce the annual deficit.  I don't think you have to put money in it to generate additional income. These include:

1. Eliminate buses in DT, outside of the proposed BRT corridors. This will improve existing bus route frequencies and cut down bus O&M expenses.

2. Eliminate service duplication. All buses, including BRT vehicles should only make stops at the skyway's endpoints in DT. Transit riders heading DT should transfer to the skyway or free PCTs.  This saves O&M costs by reducing service duplication and feeds riders onto the skyway and PCTs.

3. Train Wrap Advertising. Like bus shelter advertising, I'm all in for selling out JTA's soul to the private sector to generate additional income.  Train wrap advertising and station naming rights are two ways to get additional access to private dollars.

4. Vendor Kiosks.  The skyway's station floor areas are huge and highly underutilized.  Station floor areas in central locations could be leased to retail vendors.  This would not only provide some additional revenue but additional ridership as stations become destinations themselves.

5. Public Art.  Stations are large and underused.  Why not incorporate public art and sculptures in and around them.  Again, the point would be to make stations worth visiting themselves, which allows the skyway to serve as a circulator between various unique destinations.

I believe a mix of creative solutions like this will benefit, JTA, the skyway and downtown.  These are also things that can be applied to streetcars and commuter rail as well.

[stjr]

If we listened seriously to this kind of stuff ...

Aaaah, Stephen, but... you aren't listening as proven by your gross misrepresentation of everything I have posted, asserted, and opined.  You don't have to listen... but don't attempt to speak for me, over me, etc. in an attempt to drown me out and/or to discourage others from reading my posts and/or making decisions on the issue for themselves.

I would suggest, by the way, that when you chose to, as in the present case, you are far more obstinate than most anyone posting on these boards.  How and when that switch gets flipped, I have no idea.  But you accusing others of this transgression is like the pot calling the kettle black.

I could rebut your post line by line but you have made it clear that it's not worth the effort.

[stjr]

With this post, we are on the same page. However, I would like to maximize the existing skyway and help reduce the annual deficit.  I don't think you have to put money in it to generate additional income.

Lake, who can argue with increasing revenue without increasing expenses.  Go for it.  Will it be enough?  Time would tell.

[CS Foltz]

Well, with the hours the silly thing operates, which is not 24/7 and should be in order to get maximum dollar return, $kyway is wasting money! We are talking about $7 Million Dollars a year to run something for how many riders.....1,200 perday? BRT(Whoppee......I did not ask for it and I still say routing for ridership convience will be a mother but this is the JTA way!) Lets not forget the "Tram"......egads......bus decked out to look like a trolly! We need to get rail, either LR or Trolly set up and going, so we can start getting downtown up to speed! I am not depending on JTA or City Hall  to do the job since they have their own agendas and that does not include the taxpaying public!

[fsujax]

well, 1200 riders a day is more than Nashvilles Music City Star (commuter rail) gets.

[thelakelander]

Tampa's TECO Streetcar line is down to 700 riders a day.  On the other hand the Memphis RTA Trolleys are averaging 4,100 riders a day.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_light_rail_systems_by_ridership

Although the Tampa streetcar has spurred billions in economic development, ridership will still suffer if your route does not serve the general populace.  Another funny thing about Tampa's streetcar, its ridership is lower than the peoplemover that was taken down.

[fsujax]

yep. Nashville's Commuter Rail could probably be doing a lot better, but they went with the path of least resistance. Serving the least commuter demand in the Nashville region.

[Ocklawaha]

Look, it's common sense, more stops and expansion will produce more riders.  I can't quibble with that.  But... will it produce anywhere near the riders to justify the money needed to make the expansion a reality?  I and others say the long track record gives us a pretty clear answer: "no."  Meanwhile, the track record for streetcars, buses, and even the lowly PCT Trolley is far better in carrying traffic per dollar spent to build and operate their systems.

This is where you confuse me with Ock and some others.  I'm not a fan of expanding the skyway.  I believe the best method is to establish streetcar and commuter rail corridors serve a much larger population base.  I believe that once these things are in place, like Miami's Metromover, you will see a significant increase in skyway ridership.  In the meantime, I'd rather explore ways to better utilize the existing system to reduce annual O&M loss.

Before we go off labeling me as a blind expansionist of the Skyway, consider that your position is pretty much the same as mine.  

We DO NEED to expand it Southward to reach destinations that would feed the transit network. Reason? Streetcars will not function too well in the squeeze that we have created with the crazy Acosta ramps with the outlaw 50 mph speeds on them.  So the short or quick link from Downtown-Brooklyn is right where the FDOT and JTA proposes it alongside Riverside Avenue.  Perhaps we differ in that I would like to kill two birds with one stone and use the Skyway to wrap Annie Lytle into a publicly owned TOD and food/retail/entertainment centers, but once the thing is at Forest and Riverside, (the likely streetcar-Bus interchange) Annie is just around the corner.

San Marco, I'm the original streetcar guy in Jacksonville, but unless we hang them in the air or in a subway there is NO WAY to defeat the Florida East Coast Railway crossings. The City of South Jacksonville even sued back in the 1920's to DEMAND an overpass or underpass on those tracks... never happened. So we either bust out San Marco Boulevard and widen this Avant-garde street to 4 lanes plus parking and turn lanes, costing us a great deal of historic and retail fabric, and toss in a couple of $60 Million dollar overpasses or we spend $25 Million and take the Skyway down to the San Marco Commuter Rail Station at Atlantic.

Oops, having tapped a commuter rail station and made a way for seamless transfers from Train/BRT to SKYWAY, we need to make sure another transfer isn't required.  EASTSIDE ... Duh!  Stadium? Maybe. Shipyards? Maybe. JSO/Berkman/future convention center? ABSOLUTELY.

Otherwise, moniter the new VA medical Clinic, which will be something greater then the mess we have today which takes up the old Methodist Hospital and three Southside office buildings.  Could the Skyway terminate there? Free money? Maybe.  Designed as a terminal. Could be. Then there is the Rosa Parks/FSC gap. Wouldn't VA set up a Northside connection point? The Skyway would come up along Boulevard and Jefferson, and the Streetcar from Main Street via 8Th, spread out they would not compete but compliment each other.

When I look at the history of the Skyway, I focus on what was actually built and the specific promises and representations that went with it.  The academic and discarded visions and plans that were not incorporated in this process don't seem to have much relevancy as those visions and plans were never pursued and/or required as a prerequisite to justifying the system and its success.

So if you owned a huge public-private corporation, and the citizens were attacking your plans at every turn, you'd prefer us to consult the TU, or YOUR ACTUAL DOCUMENTS?

OCKLAWAHA

[fieldafm]

I think these examples(Tampa, Syracuse and Nashville)  are exactly the reason that public misconception about fixed mass transit is so crucial a roadblock that needs to be overcome in Jacksonville.  The Skyway was doomed by compromise.  Compromise has a special place in the follies of Jacksonville over the last 50 years.  If we also abide by a fixed mass transit plan that follows the path of least political resistance we will have yet another failure to hang our hats on.

[fsujax]

well, the Nashville example wasnt path of least political resistance, but least path of ownership existence. Publicaly ran RR vs private RR

[hillary supporter]

Perhaps we should consider a hard push for downtown residential presence. Geared, yes, towards low income. i am personally pessimistic at any commercial presence downtown as its seems to have decreased substantially over the recent years, with a full fury towards 95 south corridor, to be resumed in our economic recovery . Accordingly we could expect more use of the skyway, yes?
i witnessed the nyc high rail project and believe its success was based on such a strong residential presence in the immediate area. This is nonexistent in DT jax. Such a idea seems more a waste of time ( and money) stjr.
If you want to rid the skyway, then demolition seems enviable!

[thelakelander]

Look, it's common sense, more stops and expansion will produce more riders.  I can't quibble with that.  But... will it produce anywhere near the riders to justify the money needed to make the expansion a reality?  I and others say the long track record gives us a pretty clear answer: "no."  Meanwhile, the track record for streetcars, buses, and even the lowly PCT Trolley is far better in carrying traffic per dollar spent to build and operate their systems.

This is where you confuse me with Ock and some others.  I'm not a fan of expanding the skyway.  I believe the best method is to establish streetcar and commuter rail corridors serve a much larger population base.  I believe that once these things are in place, like Miami's Metromover, you will see a significant increase in skyway ridership.  In the meantime, I'd rather explore ways to better utilize the existing system to reduce annual O&M loss.

Before we go off labeling me as a blind expansionist of the Skyway, consider that your position is pretty much the same as mine.  

We DO NEED to expand it Southward to reach destinations that would feed the transit network. Reason? Streetcars will not function too well in the squeeze that we have created with the crazy Acosta ramps with the outlaw 50 mph speeds on them.  So the short or quick link from Downtown-Brooklyn is right where the FDOT and JTA proposes it alongside Riverside Avenue.  Perhaps we differ in that I would like to kill two birds with one stone and use the Skyway to wrap Annie Lytle into a publicly owned TOD and food/retail/entertainment centers, but once the thing is at Forest and Riverside, (the likely streetcar-Bus interchange) Annie is just around the corner.

San Marco, I'm the original streetcar guy in Jacksonville, but unless we hang them in the air or in a subway there is NO WAY to defeat the Florida East Coast Railway crossings. The City of South Jacksonville even brought sued back in the 1920's to DEMAND an overpass or underpass on those tracks... never happened. So we either bust out San Marco Boulevard and widen this Avant-garde street to 4 lanes plus parking and turn lanes, costing us a great deal of historic and retail fabric, and toss in a couple of $60 Million dollar overpasses or we spend $25 Million and take the Skyway down to the San Marco Commuter Rail Station at Atlantic.

Oops, having tapped a commuter rail station and made a way for seamless transfers from Train/BRT to SKYWAY, we need to make sure another transfer isn't required.  EASTSIDE ... Duh!  Stadium? Maybe. Shipyards? Maybe. JSO/Berkman/future convention center? ABSOLUTELY.

Otherwise, moniter the new VA medical Clinic, which will be something greater then the mess we have today which takes up the old Methodist Hospital and three Southside office buildings.  Could the Skyway terminate there? Free money? Maybe.  Designed as a terminal. Could be. Then there is the Rosa Parks/FSC gap. Wouldn't VA set up a Northside connection point? The Skyway would come up along Boulevard and Jefferson, and the Streetcar from Main Street via 8Th, spread out they would not compete but compliment each other. OCKLAWAHA

All your points have merit as potential extensions to the existing network.  Our only difference (a major one) is that I would not spend one red cent expanding the skyway in any direction before first establishing initial streetcar and commuter rail corridors to serve a greater population and to also feed the existing skyway with riders.  There's nothing wrong with planning long term but the reality is there is only so much money available for implementation of any of these options.  With that said, we'll get more bang for our buck and faster support to expand by first implementing "affordable" projects that stretch far outside of the DT core.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, I prefer the "sundew" method, the first bug that crawls onto the playing surface gets snapped up.




FSUJAX, Nashville and Eastern is a Corporation, but it is a shortline railroad. The entire 110 miles was ready for the scrap heap when it was discovered by the shortline industry. Formerly the railroad was part of the old Tennessee Central Railroad, (sort of Tennessee's hard luck version of Florida's successful Florida East Coast Ry). TC ran from the Kentucky Border at Clarksville, south to Nashville, and hence east across the center of the state. In it's bankruptcy sale, Louisville and Nashville (future CSX) and the Southern Railway (future Norfolk Southern) bought up the line and immediately severed the through route, leaving what became 3 isolated branchlines. From streamlined passenger trains in 1960, to weed choked dead end freight line under CSX, this was the WRECK OF THE TENNESSEE CENTRAL.

Many people laid out the case before the State of Tennessee that the railroad was useless, beyond saving, didn't work and needed to be abandoned and dismantled. Fresh prospective thought otherwise and the NASHVILLE EASTERN entered the stage. Since its initial start-up in the mid-1980’s, the NERR has worked collaboratively with the Tennessee Department of Transportation (TDOT) and the Nashville and Eastern Railroad Authority (NERA) to invest over $80 million into essential rail infrastructure improvements. Over the years, 110 miles of main line and 130 miles of active track have been reconstructed, 85 bridges upgraded or replaced, and 3 miles of new branch-line built.  140,000 passengers rode the NE aboard the Music City Star in 2007 on a route that was originally proposed as a east-west connector to a main north-south commuter line on the CSX.

To date the state hasn't been able to come to terms with the CSX and without the connections the Star has struggled.  As long as the citizens remember that this is NOT A COMPLETED SYSTEM, they should continue to push for expansion. Nashville, the NE, and the Star are all young, there is plenty of time to come up with a fix.
Meanwhile Nashville has shown Jacksonville and the nation how to create a first class commuter rail infrastructure on a shoestring budget... Folks the TC is back!

Witness that nobody is riding this train...  TEAR IT UP!
http://www.youtube.com/v/M1cL90yJ4sw&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca


OCKLAWAHA

[hillary supporter]

All your points have merit as potential extensions to the existing network.  Our only difference (a major one) is that I would not spend one red cent expanding the skyway in any direction before first establishing initial streetcar and commuter rail corridors to serve a greater population and to also feed the existing skyway with riders.  There's nothing wrong with planning long term but the reality is there is only so much money available for implementation of any of these options.  With that said, we'll get more bang for our buck and faster support to expand by first implementing "affordable" projects that stretch far outside of the DT core.
Posted on: Today at 10:27:00 PM

I dont believe we have a large enough population to justify commuter rail corridors ( as in Washington DC). I do agree with you to desist spending on any extention of the Skyway. Accordingly, i would suggest residential development  in Downtown as i posted above. such would, or should , increase skyway ridership, the only way to respond to stjr's (and many in the city) objections to the Skyway.