Why Build A Streetcar in Jacksonville?

[tufsu1]

When I questioned JTA's bill of goods sold to the City Council on bus shelters, where were you, Tufsu?  Looks like you have the unique self-proclaimed ability to be a JTA "truth meter"  [/b]

Here's the difference....while I don't blindly trust what JTA says, I also don't automatically discount something just because they said it.

[fsujax]

56,000 riders a day was with an estimation over 100,000 people working Downtonwn! and a thriving convention center with the Jefferson St station built directly connected to a convention center hotel. Quit overlooking all the facts in the case. There is much more of a story to be told here. The JTA was sold a bill of goods by the City promising all of this great growth Downtown, when just the opposite has happend.  Yes, blame can be passed around to everyone ever involved with the Skyway. Fact of the matter is, it doesnt connect people to neighborhoods and we have no covention center to speak of, much less a hotel and less than half of the estimated 100,000 employees projected for the urban core. Yes, tear it down and pay the FTA back over $140 million.

[stjr]

I say the JTA and City knew what they were doing:  Grabbing "free" Federal money.  Nothing else really mattered.

[CS Foltz]

stjr.....I concur!! They both know what they were doing and wanted some of that so-called FREE money from the Feds! It's too bad we can't get free money from the Feds to run the damn thing! $7 Million Dollars a year to operate something that really does not go where it needs to go and with an average of 1,700 per day, I would question that there that many a day riders anyway! Either get more Fed money and expand or extend and if that is not an option.............pull its plug and be done with it!

[Ocklawaha]

Thank you boys and girls to those who actually have spent the time and done the research in the archives at the library.  Right now, even if JTA, FDOT or the FTA stated the "system is complete", it would be a baldfaced lie. They all know what those drawings indicated and as FSUJAX, TUFSU1 or Lakelander pointed out no amount of talk will change the black and white.  Don't pee on our legs and tell us it's raining!

Streetcars are not as fast or efficient as a monorail system. However they are better then nothing, because currently all our city has for mass transit is. Bus and that wonderful Skyway system that no-one uses. We could abandon the Skyway like you want, and build a streetcar system, OR we could build onto our EXISTING infastructure.

Part of the reason we don't have the streetcar system today is that JCCI and a citizen panel all believed the highway lobby's "streetcar facts".

Fact:

There is a difference in speed between the modes, old school streetcars have operated much faster then the typical monorail. Today they are both held to about the same speeds with regulations on streetcar speed and galloping tendency's on monorails serving as a governor.  Monorails do have an advantage of being above traffic, but depending on what you want to spend, streetcars can operate the same way. Streetcars are more efficient then monorails in their cost economy, and can be near equal's in trip economics.  Far from "better then nothing" streetcars are the NUMBER ONE producer of transit oriented development resulting in economic resurgence.  

OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

stjr.....I concur!! They both know what they were doing and wanted some of that so-called FREE money from the Feds! It's too bad we can't get free money from the Feds to run the damn thing! $7 Million Dollars a year to operate something that really does not go where it needs to go and with an average of 1,700 per day, I would question that there that many a day riders anyway! Either get more Fed money and expand or extend and if that is not an option.............pull its plug and be done with it!

actually the Feds provide "free money" to almost every transit system for operations....sorry, try again!

[stjr]

Fact:

There is a difference in speed between the modes, old school streetcars have operated much faster then the typical monorail. Today they are both held to about the same speeds with regulations on streetcar speed and galloping tendency's on monorails serving as a governor.  Monorails do have an advantage of being above traffic, but depending on what you want to spend, streetcars can operate the same way. Streetcars are more efficient then monorails in their cost economy, and can be near equal's in trip economics.  Far from "better then nothing" streetcars are the NUMBER ONE producer of transit oriented development resulting in economic resurgence. [/b]  

Ock, I like it.  SOLD!  Let's get streetcars!  (I won't state the rejoinder, I think you can read my mine on that.)

[stjr]

Thank you boys and girls to those who actually have spent the time and done the research in the archives at the library.

Ock, did a little "library" style research as you suggested.

Here is another article.  Again, it says the system has attained "full completion" (and uses a 37,000 rider/day projection for it) and there is NO reference by JTA or City officials to any plan or need to expand the system.  Just what I said the public has been sold from the beginning.  And, all those hopes of things getting better.... remain hopes today just as they were some 30 years ago when this thing was hatched.  Note the rising and relative costs of operations and the 86% taxpayer subsidy and the Kings Road being built specifically (at $12 million) to support the Skyway (another failure and waste to prop the system up).

Florida Times Union, October 20, 2002, 8 Years Ago:

Skyway costs mount, but riders still won't
By David Bauerlein
Times-Union staff writer,

The Skyway glides sleekly through downtown Jacksonville like a vision of the future -- a $184 million network of computerized trains that run on high-voltage, elevated tracks.

The Trolley rolls through downtown in a nostalgic nod to the past -- the Trolley is a bus, but it's dressed up to resemble the streetcars that traversed Jacksonville a century ago.

In today's downtown, the Trolley's "back to the future" approach is taking the lead.

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority opened the 2.5-mile Skyway in sections from 1989 to November 2000, forging ahead in the face of mounting criticism about the cost of building and running the system. The full completion of the Skyway has boosted ridership somewhat in the past two years.

But the multimillion-dollar annual cost of operating the Skyway has risen at an even faster rate, draining money the JTA could otherwise spend on enhancing bus service.

The upstart Trolley also rolled out in 2000, gaining favor from city leaders because they can change the Trolley route if needed and it's far cheaper to run. The operating expense for a Trolley bus is about $60 an hour, whereas the cost of a Skyway vehicle is $163 an hour.

JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock said he remains confident the Skyway will turn the corner. He said within five years, he thinks ticket fares and parking fees will cover the operating costs, eliminating taxpayer subsidies.

"The Skyway is simply ahead of its time -- no bones about it," Blaylock said. "Downtown is going to develop. There's no question in my mind of that. The more downtown develops, the more attractive the Skyway becomes because it's part of the parking solution."

Skyway cars travel along high-voltage, elevated tracks throughout downtown Jacksonville. Currently, about 2,300 passengers a day ride the Skyway, far fewer than the 37,000 a day that JTA officials predicted when they were designing the system.[/color]

....The JTA has no intention of pulling the plug. But in the next few years, City Hall will move forward with a plan to build garages containing thousands of new spaces in downtown's core. In the past, downtown workers have preferred those close-in garages, weakening the appeal of the park-and-ride lots for the Skyway and Trolley.

The concept of park-and-ride from downtown's edge "is not working at all," said Clerk of Courts Jim Fuller, who studied downtown transportation issues when he served in the state Legislature. "If you want to do that, the only way to accomplish it is to have no parking garages in the downtown. We're building more garages."

The JTA's biggest attempt to drum up Skyway ridership was the construction of the $12 million Kings Avenue parking garage, which was built at the same time the JTA finished the last piece of the Skyway on downtown's Southbank.

Two years later, the Kings Avenue garage has shed some of its ghostly image, but remains mostly empty. The JTA has leased 17 percent of the 1,921 spaces.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/102002/met_10741073.shtml

...It's a growing cost:

In the 2001 fiscal year, the JTA's operating expense for the Skyway was more than $3.2 million. For each passenger, the JTA spent $4.59.

In the 2002 fiscal year, the JTA is on track to spend almost $3.7 million on the Skyway. The cost per passenger has increased to $5. In comparison, Miami-Dade Transit spends $3.37 per passenger for its Metromover, which is the same kind of service as the Skyway.

The JTA's budget for the current 2003 fiscal year earmarks $4.5 million for the Skyway's operation. The JTA has spent several hundred thousand dollars less than budgeted for the Skyway in past years, but the budget increase shows JTA officials expect the Skyway's cost to keep climbing.

Taxpayers subsidize 86 percent of the Skyway's operating cost. Blaylock wants to wipe out that cost to taxpayers, but it would require a quantum jump in ticket sales and parking fees.

The JTA is trying to market the Skyway to federal workers who might qualify for a federal program that pays their transit costs. Blaylock said he wants to see if any companies are interested in sponsoring Skyway stations, which would enable the companies to get their name on the station.

In the long run, other possibilities -- currently unfunded -- include building enclosed walkways from Skyway stations to neighboring buildings, and constructing more parking garages on the Skyway line.

The Downtown Development Authority has set a Dec. 11 deadline for developers to submit proposals for how they would finance, build and operate three parking garages with at least 2,600 spaces on city-owned land at the site of the new country courthouse.

Al Battle, director of the DDA, said the garage would expand parking choices downtown, but he said the Skyway and the Trolley park-and-ride spots would still have lower parking rates, making them a money-saving option.

The DDA also is seeking proposals from developers for a 550-space garage next to the new arena at the sports complex, and a 950-space garage next to the Trolley's park-and-ride lot in the sports complex. Battle said those garages could double as additional park-and-ride sites for the Trolley.

But the current Trolley park-and-ride lot is half-empty, and most of those who use it head to the county courthouse. It's not clear whether those workers would switch to the new courthouse garage when it's built. Fuller, whose Clerk of the Court office leases 125 spaces at the Trolley lot, said he's not sure if he'd keep that arrangement.

...Despite such uncertainty, City Councilman Lake Ray said he expects ridership on the Trolley will increase as people get more used to its schedule and route, which was expanded in July to run throughout downtown's Northbank.

Ray, who has been one of the council's toughest questioners regarding transit, said the Trolley is far more efficient than the Skyway. He said he's not sure the Skyway "will ever make financial sense," but he said the Skyway and the Kings Avenue garage deserve more time to prove themselves.

"We've got a big investment in it," he said. "Let's don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."

[stjr]

More "library" research, and more references to "final part", "last leg," and "completion".  This has one mention of a "previously considered" expansion to Alltel Stadium, but nothing more serious than that.  And, it was addressed by using the more "less costly and more adaptable" Trolley at that.

From 10 years ago, more promises, hopes and dreams unfulfilled today:

Published Friday, October 27, 2000

Final part of Skyway to open Wednesday

By David Bauerlein
Times-Union staff writer,

Twenty-seven years after city leaders first hatched the idea of the Skyway, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority next week will open the last leg of the 2.5-mile monorail through downtown.

Built for $184 million, the Skyway has fallen far short of ridership predictions. The JTA once estimated that 38,000 people would board the Skyway daily after the whole system is open. Currently, the Skyway provides about 2,300 rides a day.

But with completion of the route, the JTA also will open a large parking garage on the Southbank, hoping to entice commuters to park there and ride the Skyway to downtown jobs. An elevated walkway will link the $12 million garage, located on Kings Avenue, to a nearby Skyway station.

JTA officials say it takes several years to evaluate whether transportation projects justify their costs, so it's too soon to judge the Skyway.

"You've got to look ahead because you don't serve tomorrow's needs by looking back," said Steve Arrington, director of engineering for the JTA.

...Using the Skyway to connect downtown's core with outlying parking facilities has been part of the plan since the Skyway first took root in 1973, when the Florida Department of Transportation said the idea deserved consideration.

In 1976, Jacksonville City Hall formed a task force, and two years later the federal government, reacting to escalating gasoline prices, decided to test the so-called "people-mover" technology by choosing three cities for demonstration projects -- Jacksonville, Miami and Detroit.

The demonstration projects were aimed at determining whether building the fully automated systems, which are run by computers with no driver on board, would stimulate downtown development and cost less than running bus service throughout downtown.

Like Jacksonville, Miami and Detroit have found ridership lacking:

Miami's Metromover averages 13,700 daily boardings. The Miami-Dade Transit Agency opened a 1.9-mile section in 1986 and then added 2.5 miles of track in 1994. The total cost for the 4.4-mile system, which connects with the Metrorail light rail line, is $381 million.

Detroit's People Mover opened in 1987 at a cost of $200 million. It averaged 8,000 riders a day before the demolition of a building damaged the system in 1998 and prevented full use of it.

The JTA has taken years longer to complete the Skyway. Indeed, it almost didn't get built at all. After putting Jacksonville on the list in the 1970s, federal transit officials in the early 1980s raised numerous questions about the project, calling the ridership projections "speculative" and based on downtown projects that might not occur.

Congress overrode the objections and funded the Skyway, but it has been built in four phases. The federal government has paid 54 percent of the $184 million cost; 22 percent came from the state Department of Transportation; 13 percent from the JTA; and 11 percent from City Hall.

"We never dreamed that we would need this long to complete the system," said JTA board member Charles Sawyer, who lobbied hard for congressional support when he served as the board's president.

Sawyer said if the Skyway had fully opened in the 1980s, as Miami and Detroit's systems did, the construction of downtown parking facilities would have been tied to the Skyway, rather than adding to the parking garages in the downtown core.

"We were developing a project over a long period of time in relatively small pieces," Arrington said. "The problem for the public and the business community is they say, 'Yeah, I see you have the first phase of it under construction, but where's the rest of it that's going to affect me.' "

The passage of time also eroded political support. In the 1995 mayoral election, John Delaney called the Skyway a "turkey" and a "disaster" when he won election in a race with former mayor Jake Godbold, who had been one of the Skyway's most ardent supporters.

"We've spent $200 million on it [the Skyway] already and it has not proven itself to be worth even one-tenth of that money," said John Draper, a former city councilman and president of Concerned Taxpayers of Duval County.

That kind of skepticism has frozen plans to enlarge the Skyway. The JTA previously considered adding a 2.2-mile line to Alltel Stadium, but instead joined City Hall in starting The Trolley. That service, which began in March, uses buses that look like streetcars to ferry people between downtown and the stadium's parking lots. Officials say The Trolley is much less costly and more adaptable because they can change the route to match downtown's evolving development.

The newest segment of the Skyway will run through a Southbank area that includes a handful of hotels, but it won't have any "significant impact" on Jacksonville's ability to land convention business, said Kitty Ratcliffe, president of the Jacksonville & the Beaches Convention & Visitors Bureau.

Even though the Skyway runs to the Prime Osborn Convention Center, the Skyway's stations are too far from the hotels, Ratcliffe said.

"The Skyway was not designed for convention attendees," she said. ". . . It was designed for local commuter use."

To attract those commuters, the JTA is offering monthly parking rates that are half what garages charge in the center of downtown.

In the morning and afternoon rush hours, Skyway cars pull into stations every four minutes. JTA officials say the Skyway has proven to be safe and reliable. There have been no crashes or injuries.

"The system has gotten the city a lot of attention in terms of transit," said Chuck Pineda, the JTA engineer who has been the Skyway's project manager. "This is a very technically complex system, and Jacksonville should be proud of this system."

But it remains to be seen whether downtown commuters will make it part of their everyday lives. For the current fiscal year, the JTA has budgeted $3.5 million to operate the Skyway. Fares and parking fees will shoulder 11 percent of the cost, according to the JTA's budget. Taxpayers will foot the rest of the bill.

"We've got the river in the middle of the city, and the Skyway is going to make it one downtown," Sawyer said. "I think that people have got to learn how to use it and ridership will gradually increase."

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/102700/met_4450032.html

[Mattius92]

...Despite such uncertainty, City Councilman Lake Ray said he expects ridership on the Trolley will increase as people get more used to its schedule and route, which was expanded in July to run throughout downtown's Northbank.

Ray, who has been one of the council's toughest questioners regarding transit, said the Trolley is far more efficient than the Skyway. He said he's not sure the Skyway "will ever make financial sense," but he said the Skyway and the Kings Avenue garage deserve more time to prove themselves.

Lake Ray received a B.S. in Civil Engineering and was the president of Harbor Engineering Company, he served on the Jacksonville city council from 1999 to 2007 when he was elected to the Florida House of Representatives. He was a council member that knew a good amount on transit and engineering, yet he says that the trolley was better. Just imagine if he had streetcars.

[stjr]

Here is an editorial from 11 years ago.  Note its conclusion to shut it down, as Tampa did, given the only prediction about the Skyway that has come true: the "folly trolley".

Published Monday, September 27, 1999

MASS TRANSIT: Make use of Skyway

By The Times-Union

About 1,000 people ride the Skyway Express each day. That equates to 1,000 cars that are not clogging the center of the business district.

Skyway critics, of which there are many, will reflexively note that the projections were for 10,000 trips a day, which is 5,000 riders, or five times as many as there are.

However, the 1970s projections were based on optimistic forecasts of business at the convention center, the assumption of two new hotels along the route and other factors.[/color]

Also, the Skyway planners foresaw considerable expansion of the business district. There was talk of 100,000 workers downtown by 2000. Instead, other areas such as the Southpoint business district captured much of the growth and there are probably no more than 55,000 workers downtown.

So, the issue is not what might have been, but how the system can be made to work best and achieve as many of the goals as possible.

From the taxpayers' viewpoint, the worst is over. The $180 million capital cost is done. Unlike most bus operations, in which operating cost is higher than the capital cost, the operating cost of the Skyway is relatively small.

One thing that will make it difficult to be successful is the fragmented approach to parking.

In public parking, the city government, Jacksonville Transportation Authority and Downtown Development Authority all play a role.

Subsidized public parking in the center of town will make it tough for the Skyway to compete.

However, if commuters had a choice between market rates in the center of town and the Skyway's $30 park and ride alternative, the Skyway probably would get its share of business.

The debate over building the skyway is over. It will be completed within a year. What remains now is to make it useful, or shut it down, as Tampa did. Tampa's tiny line went from Harbour Island to a parking lot a few blocks away, far from the center of downtown, and served little purpose.

One thing is certain: Without some reasonably coordinated attempt to recoup its costs, the Skyway Express really will be a ''folly trolley,'' after nearly 30 years of effort.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092799/opi_Monedit2.html

[thelakelander]

Let us know when you read the actual archived skyway documents in the Special Collections Department (4th floor of the main library, check in and ask to go behind the information counter) and not random newspaper articles that were written 25 years later.  I promise your eyes will be opened to a new wealth of information regarding the Skyway system.

[thelakelander]

Regarding Tampa's, it was a short peoplemover than went from a parking garage to a failed Landing-style marketplace across the Garrison Channel.  Does anyone know if it was built with private or federal funds?  If built with federal dollars, did they have to pay the feds back after demolition?

[stjr]

More from Ock's library search suggestion:

Published Friday, February 5, 1999

JTA still 7,700 riders short on Skyway promise


By The Times-Union

You just wait, baby, until the ol' Skyway crosses the river from downtown to the Southbank.

People will flock to it then, baby, and it will be the Riderless Express no more.

Remember that argument?

Well, let's check and see what's happening now that the Skyway leg across the Acosta Bridge has been up and running for a while.

According to the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, the average weekday ridership on the Skyway in the months before the new extension was open was about 1,200.

Keep in mind that those are one-way trips, so the actual number of people using the Skyway could have been as few as 600.

When the extension across the river began operating, the JTA made the Skyway a freebie for the month of November, hoping to attract more people to the entire system.

The result was the average weekday ridership for November climbed to 3,677.

The JTA started charging again in December, and the ridership fell to 2,150. For the month just ended, January, the average weekday ridership stood at 2,300.

One could surmise from the figures that the riverfront crossing has added about 1,000 one-way trips each weekday, benefiting perhaps as few as 500 people.

Even though the original projections for just the first leg of the Skyway was 10,000 riders a day, the JTA describes the jump to 2,300 as ''dramatic.''

Hey, after all, the ridership has almost doubled. But, then again, doubling nothing isn't that hard to do.

Let's see: The cost of the system, under construction since 1987, is about $200 million. Perhaps as few as 1,000 people are riding it each day. Hmmmm, that seems a tad expensive, doesn't it?

I bring this up because - besides the fact I like poking fun at the Skyway - another downtown transportation system is on the drawing boards.

The JTA is planning a tramlike shuttle service between the Northbank's business districts and parking lots west of Alltel Stadium.

The shuttles would look like trolley cars and would run every five minutes during peak hours and every 10 minutes the rest of the time on weekdays from 6:30 a.m. to 7 p.m.

This is a system that could expand or contract to meet needs. In other words, it's flexible, which the Skyway is not.

The trams are expected to cost about $1 million and operating expenses are projected at about $300,000 a year.

That, my friends, is just a wee bit less than the Skyway's staggering price tag.

Oh, well, the Skyway, sadly, is ours, and there's not much good that comes with crying over spilled milk.

Let's just make sure we don't spill the milk again.

The trams should be the system of the future, not more of the Skyway.

[thelakelander]

Regarding Tampa's, it was a short peoplemover than went from a parking garage to a failed Landing-style marketplace across the Garrison Channel.  Does anyone know if it was built with private or federal funds?  If built with federal dollars, did they have to pay the feds back after demolition?

Nevermind, I may have found the answer to my own question.  It was privately owned.

The Harbour Island People Mover was an automated guideway transit people mover service used to carry visitors between Downtown Tampa and Harbour Island across the Garrison Channel in Tampa, Florida, United States. Privately owned but operated by the Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority (HART), service commenced on June 27, 1985. Due to low ridership and operating losses, the service was discontinued on January 16, 1999. The money given to the city for the closure of the system in a settlement with ownership served as the foundation of an endowment to cover the operating expenses of the TECO Line Streetcar System.

Description

Developed by the Beneficial Corporation and utilizing Otis Transportation Systems, the people mover was completed at a cost of $7 million. The 2,500-foot (760 m) concrete guideway was elevated and spanned the Garrison Channel. Operating between 7:00 a.m. and 2:00 a.m, the Harbour Island People Mover made approximately 620 trips per day with a maximum capacity of 100 passengers per trip.[1] The system ran in a northâ€"south direction between the downtown station located on the third level of the Old Fort Brooke parking garage and its southern terminus at the Shops of Harbour Island on Harbour Island.[1]

History

Ground was broken for the project on September 20, 1983, as a part of the greater Harbour Island redevelopment.[2] When the Harbour Island People Mover opened for service on June 27, 1985, it marked the return of rail transit to Tampa since the closure of its streetcar network in 1946.[3][4] Costing $7 million to complete, former President Gerald Ford took part in the inaugural ride.[4] Although it opened to much fanfare, ridership of the system remained relatively low.[1] By 1989, ridership averaged 1,200 riders on a weekday and 1,500 on the weekend or for an average of about 2 riders per trip.[1] The low ridership was attributed to the perceived difficulty in accessing the downtown station and the addition of a lunch-time shuttle bus service between downtown and Harbour Island by January 1989.[1]

By 1995, the Hillsborough County Metropolitan Planning Organization approved funding to initiate the preliminary engineering for the construction of a third station at the Tampa Convention Center.[5] With the system losing approximately $1 million between 1994â€"95 due to increasing operating costs and dwindling ridership due to the closure of the Shops of Harbour Island, Beneficial Corporation sought to sell the system to HART for only $1.[6] However, since the system was losing substantial amounts of money, HART declined to purchase the it from Beneficial.[6] By July, Beneficial announced the people mover may cease operations if the convention center station was not completed along the line.[7]

With the prospects of a convention center station stalling, by 1998 Beneficial was looking to shut down the people mover.[8] As a result of a contract with HART calling for the agency to be in charge of operating the system for thirty years, negotiations had to be undertaken with the city to dissolve the contract since it was good through 2015.[8] By May 1998, an agreement was reached calling for the dismantling of the people mover system and for Beneficial to pay the city $5 million to dissolve the contract.[9] Harbour Island would then be served by trolleybuses and the majority of the settlement money would go to an endowment to be used in the operating costs of the subsequently built TECO Line Streetcar System.[9][10] The line ceased operations on January 16, 1999.[4] After determining the Garrison Channel bridge was unsuitable for use as a pedestrian crossing,[4] demolition began in November 1999 and was completed by February 2000.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbour_Island_People_Mover