Bay Street Station and Streetcars coming downtown?

[raheem942]

wow cool it wont be done funding will fall juss like everyother project in this city   and recession wont help either.

[Nebular]

I hope the final design honors the fact that Water St is the approach to the Terminal, Jax's grandest facade. The visuals along Water must be preserved and the development's southwestern corner must interact appropriately with the Terminal.

[Coolyfett]

This looks great.  I do wonder whether the proposed streetcar will compete with rather than complement the skyway.  If it does compete, who would choose to ride the skyway over a streetcar? 

I would!........it rains a lot in Jax

[Coolyfett]

This Bay Street Station looks and sounds good  . On top of that it will be right next to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center. Man....what would Jax be like when all these projects get finished?? 






coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.

[Ocklawaha]

The shape of things to come!


Streetcar planning by these Jefferson Street Station developers is foward thinking and VERY tourist oriented. As a tourism attraction it can NOT fail.

The scoop on the plan is in the words "Narrow Gauge" meaning any railroad track with the running rails spaced closer then 4' 8 1/2" or Standard Gauge. Narrow gauge was very popular after the American Civil War, in fact Florida once had over 1,000 miles of 3' gauge and about 15 miles of 2' gauge common carriers. We also had our share of "Wide Gauge" which at one time included most of our own streetcar companies, until they were consolidated. The reasons for railroads going with narrow gauge was logic and economics, in states with high mountains, swamps, remote sparse populations it just made sense. A 3' gauge railroad could be built in 1890 for about 50% of the cost of standard gauge, but the load factors were about 75% or better. Rail was smaller, ties were shorter, right of way could be narrower... A regular 3' gauge car is about 8' wide, 30-40' long. A regular 2' gauge car is 6' wide, 20-35' long. Standard gauge cars are usually 10' wide, and 40-85' long.
One of the largest barriers to invasion of the South by rail that faced the Union in the War of Yankee Aggression was that most Southern Railroads used a wide gauge. 

Now that you understand the economics, a little history. Most of the small hotel type trams that ran in Florida were probably 3' gauge. Many mainline railroads were too. The Florida Southern, The South Florida, The Sanford and St. Petersburg (Orange Belt Ry), all became part of the Atlantic Coast Line...SCL...CSX! The new Orlando Commuter Rail is over the line built by the South Florida RR.. Most of the lumber lines in the Okefenokee were narrow gauge, go figure, low costs, lots of bridges, similar tonnage. Yet the Jacksonville Southwestern (Baldwin Rail Trail) which became ACL...SCL...CSX was standard gauge. So was the Ocklawaha Valley, my favorite hard luck railroad. Traction companies were a bit tougher since the economics of buying off the shelf made standard gauge, or wide gauge, the choice. Denver and Los Angeles were exceptions to the rule as both had narrow gauge streetcars.

By 1900-1920 the handwriting was on the wall. 2' gauge retreated to a few spots in Maine, then vanished before WWII. 3' gauge was found in PA, NC, CO, NM, CA, NV, HI and each year found less and less miles. Today if you want to ride a REAL 2' gauge railroad you travel to India or Brazil... Where each country was smart enough to save one isolated line. If you want a 3' experience you can ride in Western PA, CO, NM or HI, otherwise, you can view them in various locations as displays. With 5 million+ railfans in the world, it's little wonder that the few narrow gauge lines do quite well today.

Back about 1970 some folks imported a batch of tiny 2' and 3' trams from Europe. Detroit built it's downtown streetcar project with the "cheap" narrow gauge cars. Parts couldn't be found, and repairs became a major headache. Everything under the floor was just about a custom job. The system was very popular and today they are planning to rebuild it, even larger, but this time it will be standard gauge. On the other hand those Detroit cars went to Memphis, Dallas and other Cities which sent them to rebuilders that converted them from the floor down to standard gauge trolleys.

So what does this mean to us? Well, if the Jefferson Street Station can pull this off with a REAL narrow gauge streetcar. Overhead wire, 600 volt DC, steel wheel on steel rail! REAL would be the trip word here. A fake will only get them local pull, and quickly gain them a "joke nickname" in the railroad world. Gas engines, or other fake junk will do even more damage... Don't pee on our legs and tell us its raining. This is Damage that would be hard to repair. However if they bring in something from the European low lands or Australia and it's REAL? I'll be first in line.



Lastly, "BUT WHAT ABOUT EXPANSION?" "WHAT ABOUT OUR OWN TROLLEY SYSTEM?" Having two streetcar companies might be so cool... Only Jacksonville and San Francisco could make such a claim! We both need Water Street... No problem. Simply have the ties made to hold rail of both size traction companies. In short, you build 3 rail - dual gauge track. The narrow gauge shuttles back and forth and the standard gauge heads on to the Hyatt, Stadiums etc... The state, indeed the nation were once full of dual gauge track... Denver Union Station, Sanford Union Station, Gainesville, Waycross...etc. This is a CAN DO project.

Skyway competition? Not a chance. Until JTA and the City decides to build the Skyway to proper Terminals such as the new San Marco Project, Stadium (via Bay and Randolph), Riverside (via Riverside Drive), the Skyway will compete with NOTHING! As it is, the two should work to feed eachother. If the Skyway is ever completed, add in commuter rail and completed Traction System and we have MASS TRANSIT. Your bus, feeds the Skyway, feeds the Traction Company, feeds the water taxi, feeds the narrow gauge, feeds etc...

Anyone involved in this project is invited to give me a call, send me a message on this forum.

Ocklawaha

[jeh1980]

Building  Uses:

Lobby/Vertical Circulation - 60,518 square feet

Full Service Hotel - 233,168 square feet (15 story/180' tower)

Limited Service Hotel - 92,910 square feet (16 story/190' tower)

Health Club - 86,648 square feet

Parking - 181,819 square feet

Retail - 115,200 square feet

Office - 229,130 square feet (11 story/170' tower)

Theatres / Gaming - 134,970 square feet

The proposed building uses are awesome.  The only thing I'm curious about is the missing residential component.  I suppose that is due to the poor market conditions.

Once the market pickes back up, the parking lots on the north side of Bay Street are ideal for new highrise residential towers with ground level mixed uses similar to the ones being built in Charlotte and Nashville.

That's a good thought. I like to see more high rises built in downtown myself. Especially on LaVilla!

[Ocklawaha]

Here is a view of what they might have in mind. This classic little tranvia runs to Santa Theresa, Brazil. Like here,  most of the systems in South America were trashed for buses. They too realize thier mistakes, some cities have kept a tiny historic segment running. Others just ghosts that haunt the streets at night. One late night in Bogota, we came across miles and miles of narrow gauge tram lines...The wire dead since 1950. But the track looked like it was good yesterday.


My greatest fear is this is something like what we'll end up with... You could see the damage this would do to our railroad or trolley history image.

Ocklawaha

[jeh1980]

This Bay Street Station looks and sounds good  . On top of that it will be right next to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center. Man....what would Jax be like when all these projects get finished?? 






coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.

I can see it right now. Downtown can really expand with that whole entire project. By the way, any news on when it will start construction?

[Coolyfett]

This Bay Street Station looks and sounds good  . On top of that it will be right next to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center. Man....what would Jax be like when all these projects get finished?? 






coolyfett looks up, tilting his head northeast & says to himself....hmmm I wonder.

I can see it right now. Downtown can really expand with that whole entire project. By the way, any news on when it will start construction?

I was wondering that same thing. So this project is OFFICIAL??

[Jason]

I don't think its official yet.  Seems pretty much conceptual or maybe a step up to "proposed".

[Steve]

Over the last three years or so, about 15% of the projects that reached the stage of Bay St Station actually broke ground.

I'd love to see this thing happen, but let's not hold our breaths.

[fsujax]

I certainly wouldn't get too excited. Look at the Brooklyn/Hallmark Project....still no dirt turning.

[Coolyfett]

Over the last three years or so, about 15% of the projects that reached the stage of Bay St Station actually broke ground.

I'd love to see this thing happen, but let's not hold our breaths.

"the stage"? What exactly do you mean? What other projects have reached the stage?

[Steve]

Conceptual Renderings and an initial pass through the Downtown Design Review Board.  Remember St Johns Point, the St James Hotel, or the Related Group Development on the Southbank?

If not, then my point exactly.

[Coolyfett]

Conceptual Renderings and an initial pass through the Downtown Design Review Board.  Remember St Johns Point, the St James Hotel, or the Related Group Development on the Southbank?

If not, then my point exactly.

Sounds familiar but I'm not exactly sure. Those places were built correct??