This Is Embarrassing

[I-10east]

^^^Right on. Jax is such a spread out city I think that light rail would be more beneficial than streetcar. Just my opinion.   

[Ocklawaha]

No your not wrong, however it should never be a one or the other choice. Remember OCK'S golden rule of Surface Passenger Transportation.

MIX = GOOD TRANSIT = MIX

Railroad passenger service is generally locomotive hauled trains similar to Amtrak, or large self propelled RDC or DMU type rail coaches on regular railroad track.

LIGHT RAIL is a decendent of Interurban Street Car Companies, known as LRT one would be technically correct in saying that streetcars, modern or vintage, are a type of Light Rail (light-rail-light).  Today we break the terms down as

"LRT", meaning grade exclusive right-of-way, little mixed traffic (Street) running, higher speeds, longer distances, likely uses a railroad station stop concept... (Otherwise a souped up streetcar), on par with the Skyway in construction cost per mile.

"STREETCAR", a similar vehicle, slightly smaller, slightly slower, able to run in mixed traffic or exclusive right of way, short distances, likely to use a "Bus Stop" type station, usually MUCH cheaper to build.

The catch is either LRT or Streetcar can and sometimes DOES break the rules, and usually both vehicles can operate on the same track downtown! Not only that but they are able to operate on regular railroad track as long as there is a physical or temporal separation of transit and freight rail.  So the lines can be blurred between the two. Want to REALLY mess with your brain? The high speed trains in France, Japan and other locations are nearly the same vehicle as the lowly streetcar under the hood! "OCK? DO YOU MEAN A STREETCAR COULD GO 100 MPH?"  Hell's bells boys and girls THAT was done in the 1930's!

READ IT AND WEEP:

The C&LE was formed in 1930 from the merger of the Cincinnati, Hamilton and Dayton Railway , the Indiana, Columbus and Eastern , and the Lima-Toledo Railroad . There also once existed a steam railroad called the Cincinnati, Hamilton and Dayton Railroad that became a part of the Baltimore and Ohio, but they were a different company operating a separate line. Each of these was a regional interurban teetering on bankruptcyBankruptcy is a legally declared inability or impairment of ability of an individual or organisation to pay their creditors. A declared state ofbankruptcy can be requested or initiated by the bankrupt individual or organisation, or it can be requested by  due to the onset of the Great DepressionThe Great Depression was a global economic slump that began in the United States following Black Thursday, the Wall Street panic of October 1929. On October 24, 1929, share prices on Wall Street collapsed catastrophically, setting off a chain of bankruptc. These lines were modernized, and under the direction of C&LE president Thomas Conway, Jr. they were transformed into an efficient regional carrier of freight and passengers. Shortly after formation, the C&LE ordered a fleet of 20 high speed, aluminum bodied trolley Trolley is: # the term used in non-American English to refer to what Americans know as a cart, especially a shopping cart # the term used in American English to refer to what is elsewhere known as a tram (also known as light rail) # the term also refers t cars, known as "Red Devils", from the Cincinnati Car Company . These cars embodied the latest in Art-deco styling and were equipped with numerous amenities. Half of the cars were built as lounges to provide first class comfort. In order to promote the cars, the C&LE staged a race between one of the Red Devil cars and an airplane. The car achieved a speed of 97 miles per hour and won the highly publicized race. Unfortunately, as much of the track was embedded into city streets, the cars had to contend with automobile traffic and would rarely achieve these speeds in day-to-day operation

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

Thanks for the info Lake. Yall sound very knowledgeable concerning transit, I'm just a guy posting a thread. LOL. My main concern is that hopefully when the novelty wears off, that we won't end up with another white elephant AKA Skyway Express. Hey Lake, I consider The Skyway a "bust" ridership-wise; Outta curiousity, any current streetcar "bust" in a particular city, or has ridership been successful in all of the streetcar cities?

We are both professionals in the industry I-10, LAKE is an urban planner currently working in transit consulting and I am a retired trouble maker railroad planner having left my train set in the Andes!

The Skyway is a bust because it was 1. never built to ANY of the 14 approved routes that were studied. 2. Never finished to a single destination, with a gross failure to connect with the buildings and infrastructure of the urban core. That said, it could be fixed, extended and FINISHED for about 1/2 of what we have already invested.

The only streetcar "failure" that I know of due to ridership, was in Dawson, Yukon Territory, where a small trolley ran as a summer attraction. Otherwise failures have been limited to technical, or political situations, such as the Mexican Government closing 1/2 of the giant circle that made up the El Paso system, or Detroits rebuilding of Woodward Avenue causing the abandonment of the narrow gauge streetcar.

OCKLAWAHA

[I-10east]

^^^Thanks for the info Ock.

[Dog Walker]

New Orleans may be a "tourist" city, but the main lines, Canal & St. Charles are heavily used by the residents more than by tourists.

[Ocklawaha]

The theme of this thread has been, would anyone from Jacksonville know the difference?  Streetcar for commuters or as an attraction? STEEL WHEEL, ON STEEL RAIL, WITH OVERHEAD CATENARY? Even our supporters lean towards "it's a tourist attraction".  THINK! What if we built a transit system and it was packed with tourists? Wow! What a desirable problem to have... The midday riverwalk, museum, and evening dinner crowd paying for mass transit for the 9-5 working stiffs... BRAVO!

Louise DeSpain voiced it best after a recent City Planning meeting, in the presence of the Mayor... Responding to my showing a photo of the old Main Street with the palms and streetcar tracks and suggesting we restore "THE MOST BEAUTIFUL STREETCAR LINE IN THE WORLD," to it's rightful home.  "Mister Mann! We don't need your streetcars, we already HAVE TROLLEYS!

GONG! @#&*$&@#*!@

OCKLAWAHA

[urbanlibertarian]

From the Cincinnati Enquirer:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100510/NEWS0108/305100039/1055/NEWS/Council+OKs+streetcar+funding

Cincinnati streetcar plan moves forward
City council members approve $64 million in bonds

By Barry Horstman • bhorstman@enquirer.com • May 10, 2010

Sending a strong message that officials hope is heard from Cincinnati City Hall to Washington, a City Council committee Monday recommended approval of $64 million in bonds for the streetcar project, moving the long-debated plan a huge step closer to reality.

Although significant obstacles remain â€" among them, a possible lawsuit and the need for roughly $50 million more in state or federal grants â€" Monday’s decision demonstrated the firm local commitment to the project that a top Washington official said week would improve the city’s chances of securing the extra money needed.

“This is a major first step,” said Mayor Mark Mallory, who minutes before the meeting began was still meeting privately with council members to allay concerns that the bonds potentially could commit the city to a project it might not be able to complete or afford to operate.

In the end, several safeguards intended to ensure that the bonds will not be issued until City Hall has all the money in hand for the project’s $128 million first phase kept Councilmen Jeff Berding and Chris Bortz, both streetcar supporters, in the “yes” column for Monday’s 6-2 vote. Because all council members serve on the finance panel, the bonds measure is likely to pass by the same margin when it goes before the full council Wednesday.

Reinforcing Mallory’s pledge that the bonds would not be sold before the budget is fully funded, the changes included removal of an emergency clause that would have made it theoretically possible to immediately proceed with the sale. In addition, in the event other projected revenues fall short, money from the city’s sale of the Blue Ash Airport would be used as a reserve to pay off the bonds.

“I sought some backstop that would protect the general fund and this does that,” Berding said.

The decision came hours after Cincinnati lawyer Tim Mara threatened to file a lawsuit over Bortz’s continued involvement in the streetcar debate.

Citing Bortz’s potential conflict of interest stemming from property interests along the proposed streetcar route of Towne Properties, the family-owned firm Bortz works for, Mara said the councilman’s pro-streetcar votes could “cast a legal cloud over the entire process.”

Mara’s threat of a possible lawsuit, however, did not deter Bortz from voting. And after the meeting, Mallory, asked whether he had any concerns on that point, replied: “None whatsoever.”

Most public speakers encouraged the council members to, after several years of often contentious review, forcefully move ahead on the streetcar project, which has become a political flashpoint inside and outside City Hall alternately seen as a linchpin of the city’s future or a symbol of ill-conceived government spending.

“The question isn’t whether we can afford to build the streetcar,” said David Cole of Westwood. “The question is whether we can afford not to.”

Councilman Cecil Thomas echoed that sentiment, encouraging his colleagues to “stop tippy-toeing around.”

“Yes, there are some risks here,” Thomas said. “But we have to be bold enough to take those risks if we’re going to grow this city and region.”

Councilmen Chris Monzel and Charlie Winburn voted against the bonds, with Monzel stressing that even as city officials still are trying to identify construction dollars for a Downtown-to-Uptown streetcar line, “we’re not even talking about operating costs.” Maintenance and operation of the system, Monzel warned, likely will involve a public subsidy for years.

Winburn, meanwhile, cast the streetcar plan as another in a long history of projects that seem to favor Downtown over community needs elsewhere. “We always send Downtown to heaven,” Winburn said. “But for some reason we send our neighborhoods to hell. And we need to correct that.”

Councilwoman Leslie Ghiz, who also opposes the streetcar, was out of town on vacation and missed Monday’s vote.

Assuming Wednesday’s council vote mirrors Monday’s, the next major developments on the streetcar are likely to come from Washington. Next month, the city will learn whether it will receive a $25 million federal grant, and in mid-July City Hall plans to submit an application for additional dollars from Washington that are expected to be awarded by the end of this year.

Any federal grants would be added to the $15 million that a state transit board recommended for the streetcar in March. Overall, City Hall’s budget envisions state or federal dollars covering roughly half of the project’s initial $128 million cost.

[thelakelander]

Good for Cincinnati.  Btw, this is so true in today's economy.

“The question isn’t whether we can afford to build the streetcar,” said David Cole of Westwood. “The question is whether we can afford not to.”

[Ocklawaha]

NUFF SAID!

OCKLAWAHA

[ProjectMaximus]

No your not wrong, however it should never be a one or the other choice.

Yep...that's what I was getting at.

[I-10east]

I get that mostly everyone wants Jax to have streetcar, but IMO a streetcar system would be perfect for St Augustine; Everything there is bunched up in one lil' "critical mass", clear points of interest, tourists, I can't think of a more perfect situation. The streetcars could replace the trams there. I doubt if that would ever happen (St Auggie trolley) because of all of the historical mumbo jumbo.

[thelakelander]

Streetcars would be great for both, for different reasons.  In St. Augustine, there is a critical mass of tourist attractions and building fabric.  In Jacksonville, the city's urban core lacks connectivity, unreliable mass transit and has struggled with economic redevelopment.  Those are three things that streetcars have a great impact on improving.  While the urban environments in the city's are different, the general use of this mass transit mode works for both.  You'll just have to design systems that fits and meets the needs of the areas they are intended to serve.