No end to debate over Downtown’s bus shelters

[thelakelander]

by Max Marbut
Staff Writer


The latest chapter in the debate over whether advertising should be allowed on bus shelters Downtown was written Thursday at the monthly meeting of the Downtown Development Review Board of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission.

Mike Miller, Jacksonville Transportation Authority director of external communications, said JTA has been looking into upgrading bus shelters for three years as an element of the Bus Rapid Transit program. He reminded board members of the February 2008 DDRB meeting, which marked the first time JTA presented examples of bus shelters used in other markets.

Since then, said Miller, there have been several workshops and meetings with JEDC staff to develop the criteria for the design of shelters that would be installed Downtown.

Miller also pointed out that last October, the City Council enacted legislation authorizing advertising to be placed on bus shelters in Jacksonville. The legislation was supported by JTA so that the costs involved with installing and maintaining the structures can be borne by a third party rather than the taxpayers of Duval County.

Miller said after a Request for Proposals was issued in February, four vendors submitted responses and that list was reduced to three possible providers. The submittals were sent to JEDC staff for their review based on criteria established related to the appearance of the shelters.

Joanne Diz, JTA’s project manager for the shelter design, presented a set of renderings to the board members of three basics designs and the many variations possible on each. Options include glass shelters and shelters constructed with perforated metal and roof design options.

“I love Downtown and we want it to be beautiful, too,” said Diz.

After board members reviewed the many options presented former DDRB chair and landscape architect Chris Flagg commented, “I’d be in favor of any opportunity to improve what we have.”

The purpose of the presentation was not to accept or reject any particular design, as it was listed on the DDRB’s agenda as an “information/discussion item.”

Assistant General Counsel Jason Teal told board members the ordinance requires JTA to eventually make a formal presentation to DDRB concerning the design of the new shelters. He also sad JTA is required by the legislation to submit three designs, one of which the board must approve. The City will also approve the locations for the street furniture and how that are installed â€" the distance from the curb and proximity to fire hydrants, for example.

After the discussion, the meeting was opened to public comment. Rachel Cocciolo, assistant to attorney and longtime opponent of outdoor advertising Bill Brinton, read a statement from Brinton, who she explained was out of town.

The statement read in part: “Since the late 1950s, the Downtown area has been free of commercial ads along the city sidewalks. Even when the County and the pre-consolidation City entered into ill-advised bus bench advertising contracts, the Downtown area was kept from having advertising on city streets.

“It is a simple matter to advise the JTA Board that the preference of the DDRB is to keep our Downtown street furniture free of commercial ads.”

Cocciolo added, “You’re basically choosing the backdrop for advertising,” and “We have the mast arms and those stickers â€" we’re really starting to clutter up Downtown.”

When asked after the meeting if she uses JTA, Cocciolo replied she didn’t. When asked if Brinton ever uses JTA, she said, “No. We’re lucky enough to have cars.”

The board also gave final approval for the 200-foot floating dock on the Northbank Riverwalk near the Fuller Warren Bridge, approved parking and landscaping zoning variances for a residence converted into an office at 432 E. Monroe St. and approved the conceptual plan for a combination gas station, convenience store and cafe on Main Street between State and Union streets.

The next meeting of the DDRB is May 27 at 2 p.m. in the JEDC board room at 1 W. Adams St.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2010-04-30

[simms3]

They want downtown to have a sterile feel...void of any street life except for the homeless?  I hope nobody listens to Mr. Brinton, who probably keeps his walking downtown to a minimum from the parking garage to Riverplace Tower, in an area which would be largely unaffected by any change in bus shelters.  This guy really bugs me.

From the people in Mayport opposed to any sort of progress that would actually dramatically help them to the people at the beaches who do not want anything new to come to their neck of the woods to the people scattered around the westside and clay county who oppose any sort of culture outside of the confederacy to smart business leaders such as this guy who are so misguided, Jax probably has the most obstacles of any major metro in America (barring Detroit or Buffalo) to becoming great and yet we probably have some of the most potential.  It is too depressing sometimes.  How can anyone logically be opposed to this and at the same time say we already have too much clutter on downtown streets?

[Doctor_K]

Who the **** are these people and why the **** are they in charge of anything with having to do with downtown?  Please make these imbiciles go away.

[tufsu1]

it might be useful top point out that downtown started to decline in the 1950s...I doubt there's much correlation between that and advertising, but it is still a good sound bite

[thelakelander]

Downtown is the area of town where shelters with advertising make the most sense.  



I'll take one of these any day over what we have now.  If we really want to improve our mass transit system, we're going to have to learn to take advantages of opportunities like this or vote to raise our taxes to fund all the improvements needed.  

[stjr]

...I hope nobody listens to Mr. Brinton, who probably keeps his walking downtown to a minimum from the parking garage to Riverplace Tower, in an area which would be largely unaffected by any change in bus shelters.  This guy really bugs me.

Simms, everyone is entitled to their opinion, of course, but the bus shelter advertising issue isn't so much about ads, per se, on bus shelters if you have followed this from the beginning.

There are several MJ threads that more fully explore both sides of this issue but the biggest concern has to do with opening the door up for the return of currently banned billboards (other than the ones you currently see which are grandfathered in) and other intrusive signs (such as large plastic portable signs with garish multicolored flashing lights that cropped up by the thousands before they were banned).  The law allowing bus shelter ads could motivate billboard and other companies to use it as a legal wedge to get their bans thrown out due to inconsistent legal policy.

Mr. Brinton knows of what he speaks as he is a national expert on the legal ramifications involved here and was instrumental in getting the law passed originally that banned billboards and limited intrusive signs.  JTA ignored him and, instead, relied on its attorneys who are not experts on this area of the law and that also happen to have a conflict of interest on this issue.  Of course, JTA didn't care to here about that.  Mr. Brinton and other opponents maintain that these shelters could have been funded in other ways without the need for advertising.  You will see this also debated on the MJ threads addressing this issue.

[thelakelander]

What were some of the other funding options that would come from sources other than JTA, taxpayers or another governmental entity?  If they are out there, they should be definitely heavily promoted by Mr. Brinton and Co.

[stjr]

What were some of the other funding options that would come from sources other than JTA, taxpayers or another governmental entity?  If they are out there, they should be definitely heavily promoted by Mr. Brinton and Co.

Lake, you know the answer to this question as you have participated on other MJ boards where this was discussed.  Here is a quote I posted on one of them before to answer your question - again:

(From http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5738.75.html , post #78):

I will remind you that JTA may be able to fund the shelters in other ways, not the least of which is taking the funds used to operate the useless $ky-high-way and apply them toward assisting thousands more bus riders and maybe even adding a few with the added amenities.  Now, that would be a major win-win for everyone!

Failing that, I have already pointed out ways other communities have found to fund shelters.  Stimulus dollars, corporate underwriting, downtown development agencies, community groups, redirected funds from lesser priorities, etc.  Being creative, I am sure we can do the same.

Further, JTA has not given opponents the financial information they requested regarding revenues and costs associated with the bus shelter advertising program making it difficult for anyone to respond intelligently.  You even started that thread:

By Larry Hannan

A former attorney with the Jacksonville General Counsel’s Office is suing the Jacksonville Transportation Authority because he says it has not complied with his public records request.

Tracey Arpen  filed suit this week in Circuit Court over a request he filed in October. Arpen is a longtime advocate of the city’s sign law, and JTA successfully lobbied the City Council last year to amend that law so it could build bus shelters with advertisements.

Arpen and others opposed that amendment. The JTA board is expected to approve a request for proposal today  that will invite sign companies to bid for a contract to build and maintain shelters with ads.

The public records request asks for all documents identifying lobbyists, expenses, and communication regarding the sign law. It also asks for documentation that backs up an assertion JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock made in a video on JTA’s Web site that said it was responding to thousands of people who’d called for more bus shelters.

JTA is a state agency and must comply with the state public records law, the lawsuit said. Arpen said there was no reason JTA couldn’t provide the documents. He expects a hearing to occur on the matter next week.

Arpen and other argue that amending the sign law will put the law banning billboards at risk via a legal challenge from a sign company that doesn’t get the contract. JTA and lawyers for the city’s General Counsel Office dispute that.

JTA had no comment, spokesman Mike Miller said.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-27/story/attorney_sues_jta_over_public_records_request

[thelakelander]

You know I'm not a fan of our sign ordinance but I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss something from past conversations on this issue.  Anyway, unless some private group steps up to donate some shelters (which has not happened in all the years of this debate) the rest of those options are robbing Peter to pay Paul with taxpayer dollars.  I'm still of the opinion, if you can get the private sector to fund and maintain shelters, if you find other funds to use, they should go to resolving other issues that plague our mass transit system.

[JeffreyS]

Up in Chicago this week and the bus shelters all have advertising.  Amazingly they still do the tours sightseeing groups. No one has said boy that down town would be nice if it didn't have those bus shelter signs.  Wicker park the same story.  Also the back of much of the advertising has directional maps on the back.

[JC]

Up in Chicago this week and the bus shelters all have advertising.  Amazingly they still do the tours sightseeing groups. No one has said boy that down town would be nice if it didn't have those bus shelter signs.  Wicker park the same story.  Also the back of much of the advertising has directional maps on the back.

Same in NY. 

[stjr]

Up in Chicago this week and the bus shelters all have advertising.  Amazingly they still do the tours sightseeing groups. No one has said boy that down town would be nice if it didn't have those bus shelter signs.  Wicker park the same story.  Also the back of much of the advertising has directional maps on the back.

Jeffrey, reread my post above.  My issue is opening the door again for billboards and other intrusive signs, not so much bus shelter ads.  I don't know why everyone wants to skirt the elephant in the room on this one.  Address my issue and I'll concede you some shetlers with ads.  Fair enough?

[CS Foltz]

I wonder if Mr Arpen got his information from JTA? I have not seen anything that would suggest otherwise! I still say that "Advertising"  should not be a requirement for Bus Shelters to be built! I also agree, if the $kyway were terminated.............plenty of money for shelters then but that won't happen! How about JTA takes a pay cut, upper management and up, that should generate some money! They can say what they want, the advertising does not generate enough income to substantiate either bus's or shelters be emblazoned with someone trying to sell me something I don't need or want! All that does is produce income for advertising company's.........still no shelters!

[JeffreyS]

Up in Chicago this week and the bus shelters all have advertising.  Amazingly they still do the tours sightseeing groups. No one has said boy that down town would be nice if it didn't have those bus shelter signs.  Wicker park the same story.  Also the back of much of the advertising has directional maps on the back.

Jeffrey, reread my post above.  My issue is opening the door again for billboards and other intrusive signs, not so much bus shelter ads.  I don't know why everyone wants to skirt the elephant in the room on this one.  Address my issue and I'll concede you some shetlers with ads.  Fair enough?

I think we can find common ground it should be a narrow law that is only about this specific signage and limits the size and neighborhoods of the ads.

[Charles Hunter]

The law has already been passed - JTA says it does what you say, Brinton says it does not, and he makes his career defending cities with anti-sign laws by challenges from billboard companies.  There is a provision that if he law allows a successful challenge to the billboard ban, the shelter law becomes void.  Not sure how that will work.  And, if the sign contractor has put up advertising shelters, then the law is repealed, I would guess JTA would owe the sign contractor money?