Peytons Pocket Park Disaster

[Lunican]

So is the park up for sale to the highest bidder? Does the city normally sell off park land to developers? I would think it would be harder to build something on a park than a parking lot.

City Hall stated that their goal was to get buildings on these blocks, but then they went ahead and spent money to get them further from their goal. Kind of weird.

[thelakelander]

We didn't NEED to spend $700k on sod.  If we really wanted to green the lot, you can get a 500sf pallet of St. Augustine Sod for about $100 bucks.  The site is 33,075sf, which means it would have taken 66 pallets of sod to fill it and create a passive greenspace (if desired).  At $100/pallet that comes out to $6,615.00.  Assume the same amount for labor and that puts you at $13,230.  Even if you wanted improved lighting and a few perimeter trees (the Federal grant would have funded them along Main) it could still be done for well less than $100k.

So with that said, the better choice should have been to leave the vacant lot and apply to $700k to improving a permanent public space.  Lets get real, this site is across the street from the butt of the Library.  The community would have been better served taking that money and spending it in Hemming (or some other park) to make them more of an inviting place and allow the free market to take control of the Main Street lot.

[big ben]

i'm thinking this park needs more attention from the tax payers.  since nobody is using this lot, we could also try to change that.  if people actually use the park, it's not  a complete disaster and developers might be more likely to want to use downtown.

i'm thinking if there is a group of people in this parket during rush hour, people will notice.  since these parkets are too small for most park activities except sitting activities, i'm thinking we could play croquet.  then again, i don't know enough about that to know if it would fit on one of these parkets.

regardless, i think it would draw attention, because how often do you actually see a group of people playing croquet.  we could set up a large sign or signs saying something like "the cost of this croquet field was $700,000" and large enough for people to easily read it while driving.  i also think this is better than just trying to draw attention to the cost, because people from the suburbs would see that people actually do things downtown when there isn't an event drawing them there.

does anyone else think this is a good idea?  if it does nothing else, i will at least have learned how to play croquet...maybe.

[Jason]

I find it hard to believe that this park will ever be sold off to developers.  10 to 20 years from now this park my be a welcomed addition in what could be a very active, urban, and dense downtown environment, however, the cost of the park could/should have been the responsibility of a developer versus the city.  There are too many other parks out there (as many have mentioned) that are being neglected and ignored that could have used the money and attention.

I guess these arguments are pointless though because it is built and isn't going anywhere and as Big Ben has suggested, we should try to make something of it so that it doesn't fall off of the charts like so many others around town.  This should be a "lesson learned" by the city though.

[JWW]

They did not spend 700K on just sod. I'm all about the free market, but the free market gave us all those surface parking lots.  Free market can still give you the computer graphic middle class housing that is in such high demand, but for some reason  the Mayor kept it off the property tax rolls. Metrojacksonville has complained about surface parking lots and tearing down buildings, and the blight it has caused downtown. Now, the city turns one backwards and still can't win. "Is this park for sale to the highest bidder?","can you build on a park"? Yes - in a free market everything is for sale.

[thelakelander]

They did not spend 700K on just sod.

I agree.  If it is a temporary fix, it was flushed down the toilet on permanent elements like retaining walls.

I'm all about the free market, but the free market gave us all those surface parking lots.

Actually the free market didn't.  The creation of many of downtown's surface parking lots are heavily influenced by public policy.

Metrojacksonville has complained about surface parking lots and tearing down buildings, and the blight it has caused downtown. Now, the city turns one backwards and still can't win.

Its not a game.  The winners and losers are me, you and Duval County taxpayers.  The idea of a public park next to a Salvation Army, a one way freeway, the butt of the library and asphalt lots is a bad one, plain and simple.  It was bad a year ago and you're seeing the results off little usage today.

"Is this park for sale to the highest bidder?","can you build on a park"? Yes - in a free market everything is for sale.

I think you're missing the point, unless you have no problem lighting money on fire.   The $700k could have been spent somewhere else and had a greater impact on more of the existing population.

Because that block is green, it won't bring people to the core and it won't get much usage, due to the location.  It may look nice driving by, but downtown should be designed to be a fish bowl or a tour ride.  In Baymeadows this type of designing may work, but in urban areas the success of public spaces are contingent on what takes place around them and how well they integrates with them.   

[vicupstate]

They did not spend 700K on just sod. I'm all about the free market, but the free market gave us all those surface parking lots.  Free market can still give you the computer graphic middle class housing that is in such high demand, but for some reason  the Mayor kept it off the property tax rolls. Metrojacksonville has complained about surface parking lots and tearing down buildings, and the blight it has caused downtown. Now, the city turns one backwards and still can't win. "Is this park for sale to the highest bidder?","can you build on a park"? Yes - in a free market everything is for sale.

There is quite often OPPOSITION to converting park land to something else.  There was a proposal to convert a SMALL PERCENTAGE of an existing pocket park at the corner of Broad and Bay into parking so that an adacent building could have residential units.  The city council turned it down, primarily because 'park space shouldn't be developed'.   

It's not like the city didn't already have several useless pocket parks.  The one across the Florida Theater and the aforementioned Bay and Broad one show that they don't generate activity in and of themselves. 

In fact that $700,000 could have implemented Tri VU's plan for the FL Theater pocket park that would have made it a viable space. 

JAX has enough 'lessons learned' on DT screw-ups, to bring Wikipedia to it's knees.  It needs to start getting it right for a change.   

[JWW]

Well, I agree the park isn't going to be used as a park (lounging, picnic, etc.) - I don't plan on going there. The streetscape improvements would have been enough to visually improve main street as you drive through without the grass area.  What type of space is needed for the residence of the Cathedrals, 11 E. Forsyth, the Carling, Berkmans, Churchill Lofts, etc. to go walk, relax, play with dogs and children?  Is that the focus, and what needs to be built to start Downtown Jax on the right path?

[downtownparks]

I think one of the things we suggested at the time was for the city to issue an RFP that included not only market rate housing, but also included green elements. I believe it was over on MetJax, but I am pretty sure several people posted examples of mid/high rise style buildings with green elements.

[downtownparks]

Yeah, here are some of the threads from back then... We have hashed this all out before.

We are making the same points now that we made then. This to me was an issue on two fronts. The waste of money that could have been used in other parks, and the fact that we are continuing to turn our downtowns back on Main St.

Here is where it all started, and the issue was jumped on immediately by many of us.
http://www.metjax.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2020&

Here is when we realized they were hammering it though regardless.
http://www.metjax.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3756&

[thelakelander]

Yes, some of us also met with Adam Hollingsworth and Paul Crawford and suggested that as well.  In that case, the site would have been developed into something that put it back on the tax rolls, but also included a linear greenspace element.....at the developer's expense.  By combining the two you would have then had a space with retail/housing opening up onto it, thus providing it with a continuous flow of traffic.

What type of space is needed for the residence of the Cathedrals, 11 E. Forsyth, the Carling, Berkmans, Churchill Lofts, etc. to go walk, relax, play with dogs and children?  Is that the focus, and what needs to be built to start Downtown Jax on the right path?

There's a quaint pocket park at Market and Church Streets.  We have the Riverwalk, Hemming Plaza and a few existing pocket parks scattered in between.  On top of that you then have Metropolitan Park and the chain of parks lining Hogans Creek.  It can be argued that there's already plenty of park space in core that we need to improve and build upon to help them recieve more usage.

As for getting downtown off to the right track, I think we have to look at the issue of connectivity.  Overall we've made significant progress from a few years ago, but we need that extra umph to push it to the next level.  

People attract people and the more you can pile into a compact area with a diverse amount of uses, the more successful downtown will be.  If we applied that concept to parks, then we'd take a space like Hemming Plaza, clean it up, add additional uses within it (like a tot lot) and fill its borders with a mix of uses that are alive around the clock on all four sides (including city hall).  Once the vibrant epicenter is formed, things spreadout from there and connect to other nearby popular nodes like the Landing and the waterfront, via redeveloping corridors like Laura Street.

[gatorback]

Drove by the park for the 1st time in a year and saw a few what I think homeless people hanging out in the park. As far as posts go, I think this thread has been one of the best threads on the site.

[ONESTOP THRIFTSHOP]

Parks are ok.  But we need jobs in this town.  We need businesses to stay open instead of closing. People needs  to work to support their families and pay bills.  Unemployment is not going to be there much longer for some of the people.

Here is an article that I found on the Daily Record under Financial News & Daily Record Chronicling Business and Law in Jacksonville.

This guy is from Georgia taking away our jobs in construction here in Jacksonville.



Developer Ben Carter: Retail, movies, downtown and the farm
04/07/2010

Ben Carter, founder and chairman of Atlanta-based Ben Carter Properties, is best known in Jacksonville for developing St. Johns Town Center in Southside, opening the first phase in 2005 and the second in 2007. Carter has strong ties to Jacksonville and led a Downtown retail task force to help determine a City action plan for development. Carter met with the Daily Record editorial staff Monday.


How’s it going at St. Johns Town Center? What’s the occupancy rate?

It’s very successful and even in this recession, it’s fared very well. Occupancy is 98 percent.



Did you imagine this type of success?

Yes. The early criticism was Regency and the Avenues were too close. But, neither had that mix that attracts higher incomes. To make it different, we needed a lot of retail that was high-end and catered to ‘bridge and better.’ That was Phase One. Phase Two was a notch higher and more trendy and more upscale. We also got Target for the value-oriented side. That’s what makes Town Center unique. We have both value-oriented and high-end.

We are also 10 minutes from the Beach and we knew 9A was being expanded and JTB was being expanded.

There’s long been talk that St. Johns Town Center will land a Macy’s, Nordstrom or other new big-name retailer. Macy’s continues to advertise on television in this market. When can we expect one of these stores, and which one?

There’s really no update on that. We have the location that Macy’s or Nordstrom or Saks or Neiman Marcus would want. Dillard’s (already there) and Macy’s are very similar, so my real focus is Neiman or Saks or Nordstrom, but it is going to be when they are ready.



What is the top store and restaurant at Town Center?

I am not sure which is the top store, but all of the restaurants are doing approximately $1,000 a square foot, which is extraordinary.



Are you ever amazed by the number of people at Town Center no matter what day or time it is?

The daytime office population creates a lot of traffic between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m. The primary retail hours are 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. And, the restaurants at night are driving incredible traffic.

People don’t care if there’s a two-hour wait if they can have a cocktail and walk around for a while.

It’s very rewarding. The company is focused on creating places people enjoy. That’s our mantra.

Anything good for the city will continue to have variety. We are beyond the point of trying to induce retailers. It (Town Center) speaks for itself.



When you hear bad things about Town Center, such as a complaint about parking, what do you do?

We hear about the walking distance from the parking lots and the distance from one end to the other. People tend to shop in zones. We’ve experimented with train rides and golf carts. I think one day there will be some type of regular transportation on the main spine.



What retailers have you said ‘no’ to?

I said no to a martini bar. The primary reason was they weren’t going to open until 7 at night and they were going to draw a crowd that was not complementary to our family environment and retailers.

I said no to a number of retailers already operating in Regency and Orange Park Mall, not because they are not great retailers, but we are looking for unique retailers.



How’s the new entertainment area coming along?

Whisky River is getting ready to open with a grand opening April 14. There are going to be three restaurants there clustered together, which will create a nice entertainment venue. In fact, I just walked into Whisky River and it looks pretty interesting.



Any plans for a movie theater?

We’re a little too close to Tinseltown, which is large and successful. Theaters have to compete for movies and it’s hard for them to come in and compete, but we are starting to talk to some theaters that are small venues with a bar and restaurant. We are trying to do that and we have some land available for that. I went to my first one a couple months ago and it was pretty nice. I was watching “Avatar” (in 3-D), so it was hard to eat.



What about residential at St. Johns Town Center? Do you see a time when residential could be more closely integrated?

We tried to do residential over the retail and it ended up being next door. It’s a difficult prototype to do, because the resident wants parking near their unit and the retailer wants parking near their store. It’s also difficult in terms of operating hours. The resident doesn’t want trash pickup while they’re asleep and at most retail venues, that occurs before business and after business. There are some operational things you have to coordinate, but mainly I think it’s just an evolution of development prototypes and people are figuring out more and more. Yeah, I think residential could be on top of retail when the market comes back.



You keep in tune with commercial real estate. How is it doing here in Northeast Florida?

The office vacancy rate is at an all-time high and retail vacancy is in the low teens. A lot of that is older product and more local merchants. I think the biggest issue business has out there is being able to rely on their banks. Banks are not lending anymore. Whether you own a company or are in the retail business, historically, you’ve relied on financing to help pay bills and grow. That’s virtually nonexistent and until that comes back, we’re not going to have a sustained recovery. The lenders, I think, are going to be more aggressive in taking things back vs. not being paid. I think there will be an increase in foreclosures, but not as dramatic as everyone thinks. Now that everybody feels we’re in a recovery, I think a lot of lenders think they can wait a little longer rather than take a loss on their balance sheet.



Do you think the enclosed shopping mall is a thing of the past?

The enclosed mall is the most dominant retail format in America. I don’t think it’s going away, but I think we will see more of a trend toward open-air, mixed-use development.

The most successful shopping areas in the world are streets. I think part of that is because of the experience. A big part of retail is entertainment. It’s watching people and interacting with people and doing something with your family that you can do together. That’s more of an experience in a open-air environment because it’s more than just shopping.



Where do you think the next big retail development will be in North Florida?

I looked in St. Augustine and had a site there down at World Golf Village, but it was growth-driven. When the residential growth stopped, it had to be put on the back burner. I think there will be something in that area because I think Jacksonville is growing south primarily and I think St. Augustine is growing north. It’s also perfect spacing from the Avenues mall and 20 miles from St. Johns Town Center. It will be a few years, but I think that area of St. Johns County will justify development.

You chaired the Retail Task Force that contributed to the City’s 2007 Downtown Action Plan. Retail development in the urban core remains a hot topic. What’s it going to take to get some momentum going?

I’ve spoken to the mayor on several occasions and one of the things I said to him was that St. Johns Town Center was an idea in 1999 that opened in 2005. It took six years. Just because you’re in a recession doesn’t mean you can’t start laying groundwork. It’s not going to happen overnight, but there are a lot of people talking about Downtown and a lot of people are interested in it. I think all the advocacy groups need to get on the same page.



Does the idea of downtown retail development have any strong points?

Jacksonville’s average age is 33 years old and that’s perfect for urban revival. We have to focus on getting that age group Downtown. Retail follows demographics. What you’ve got right now is a daytime population of 60,000 people, but there’s not enough to keep them there, so they are going home (after work). Interestingly enough, that’s about the same office population that’s around St. Johns Town Center.

Every successful downtown that has come back has come back because of young people. I don’t think the 18- to 25- year-olds today are interested in gated communities. They’re interested in a different kind of lifestyle.

One of the things I said to the mayor is he needs to be going after technical schools, cosmetology schools, computer skills training and arts and graphics. All of those people are urban-minded and they’re in the right age bracket. I would love to see a focus on taking advantage of the recession and lower office rents and the availability of space to bring two or three schools Downtown. We’re working with one in Atlanta that has 300 students. If there were three of those here, you’d have 900 young professionals who are spending all day Downtown and are more likely to stick around after work because they’re looking for entertainment.



What has been the reception from the mayor’s office?

It’s been terrific. Unfortunately, he’s running out of time (Mayor John Peyton’s second term ends June 30, 2011).

I think he’d like to see something in place before he goes, something that will go beyond his term. It’s (Downtown development) a building block and it goes block-by-block. I’d have a singular focus on the urban core and let the ripples in that water spread.



Can people who live in the suburbs support Downtown’s revitalization?

You’ve got some of the best demographics in Jacksonville a mile and a half from Downtown. San Marco, Riverside and Arlington need to start coming back Downtown. My focus would be on bringing young professionals and my second focus would be providing things that are family-oriented. Football games are one piece of that, but it doesn’t happen often enough.



What part of Downtown should be addressed first?

I think there has been too much focus on Brooklyn, Southbank and Northbank. We need to focus on the city’s center. Southbank is successful. Brooklyn on the riverfront is successful. I think what we need to focus on is the urban core. That’s Laura Street, Bay Street and the river.

For the life of me, I don’t understand why the Riverside Arts Market is not sitting right Downtown on the riverfront. That’s one of the successful new things that’s going on. Why is it located two miles from Downtown?



How often are you in Jacksonville?

I’m spending more time here; about half here and half in Atlanta.



What do you do when you’re not working?

I have a farm in Madison, Ga., and I love to travel. We have a house here and a house in Atlanta. We bounce around those three and keep up with the kids.

[buckethead]

He developed town center and took jobs away? Sounds like fuzzy math.