Florida, Michigan seek exit from Democratic penalty box

[Steve]

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- Will the recount state become the re-primary state? And will voters in Michigan have their say in picking a Democratic candidate for president?


Michigan's Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm, shown in 2006, called for her state's delegates to be seated.

1 of 2 Political leaders from Florida and Michigan were busy Wednesday talking about plans to make sure that voters in their states are heard in picking a Democratic nominee.

The discussions unfolded amid a grueling, delegate-by-delegate fight between Sen. Hillary Clinton of New York and Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois.

The national Democratic Party stripped Florida and Michigan of their delegates to the national convention after the states moved up the dates of their primary elections.

That means votes that were cast in primaries in those states will not translate into delegates awarded to one candidate or the other in the contest for the Democratic nomination for president.  Watch Florida's mounting frustration »

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean said the states can either come up with a new plan to choose a slate of delegates or appeal to the party's credentials committee when the convention opens in August.

"Out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game," Dean said in a written statement Wednesday.

The national Democratic Party stripped Florida -- epicenter of the 2000 election debacle -- of its 210 national convention delegates as punishment for the state's decision to move its party primaries to January 29.

Michigan received the same treatment after moving its primary date to January as well, losing its 156 convention delegates.

On Wednesday, Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, a Republican, and Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, called on the Democratic National Committee to seat their states' delegations. They accused the party in a statement of silencing "the voices of 5,163,271 Americans" who voted in their primaries.

"It is intolerable that the national political parties have denied the citizens of Michigan and Florida their votes and voices at their respective national conventions," they wrote.

And at a news conference in Tallahassee, Crist -- who signed the bill that changed Florida's primary date -- pointed fingers outside the state.

"It's unconscionable to me that some party boss in Washington is not going to permit the people to be heard," he said. "That's not what America is all about, and it's wrong."

Wednesday night in Washington, Democratic House members from Florida and Michigan met for about an hour to talk about possibilities that would lead to delegations from those states influencing the outcome of the Democratic nominating contest.

"Both delegations feel very, very strongly -- adamantly -- that our delegations be seated at the national conventions," said Rep. Debbie Wasserman Shultz of Florida.

Rep. Sander Levin of Michigan said he's not sure of the best way to resolve the dispute but that voters from Florida and Michigan should have their voters counted.

"I think the key is the voice of Michigan and Florida is heard and there's a procedure that is fair to the residents and fair to the two candidates," he said.

Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan suggested Wednesday that his state could hold caucuses to select its delegates.

Participants declined to say whether there is general agreement on a way forward -- for example, whether the two states should redo the votes there or use results from the previous primaries. They pledged to continue discussions, though no formal meeting has been scheduled.

Clinton, the New York senator and former first lady, was the only leading Democrat to appear on ballots in Michigan and made a handful of allowed fund-raising appearances in Florida in the last days before the vote, while other candidates skipped the state. She won both contests.

Now, as she trails Obama by 100-plus delegates, Clinton has called for the Michigan and Florida delegations to be seated at the party's convention in Denver, Colorado.

The Democrats' next big primary is seven weeks away in Pennsylvania, where 158 delegates are at stake. Adding new contests to the mix could prolong the Democrats' heated battle for the nomination while giving McCain more freedom to focus on November's general election.

Crist told CNN's "Late Edition" on Sunday that he supported holding another primary to resolve the dispute. But Wednesday, he said the state would not pay for a second contest.

The Florida Democratic Party estimates that a new primary could cost as much as $18 million -- and Sen. Bill Nelson said the DNC should pick up the tab.

"There's no way the state legislature is going to fund another election when they are in economic cardiac arrest right now," said Nelson, a Florida Democrat. "They are cutting payments to health care, education, social services and payments to the cities and counties.

"There's no way that they're going find an additional $18 million to fund another election, nor should they. This shouldn't be the burden of the taxpayers of Florida -- this should be the burden of the Democratic National Committee."

Party officials have said they will not pay for Florida to hold a new primary because they warned the state not to move up its primary.

"The Democratic nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules," Dean said. But he emphasized that his goal was to maintain party unity, and called the statement by Crist and Granholm "good news."

"We look forward to receiving their proposals, should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans, and will review those plans at that time," he said.

But Nelson said the party's stance was unfair, since it was Republican lawmakers in Tallahassee and a Republican governor, Crist, who decided to move up the state's primary over the opposition of Democrats.

And if the state's decision to move the primary remains controversial, it pales in comparison to a bill two Florida state senators are discussing. Sen. Nan Rich, a Clinton backer, is proposing that the state remove the party's eventual presidential nominee from the state's ballot unless it seats Florida's delegates.

"That's one option," Rich said.

Legal scholars say they doubt removing the Democratic or Republican nominee's name from the ballot would be constitutional. But state Senate Democratic leader Steve Geller said he been approached by Republicans promoting the bill.


Geller said it is a sign of how bitter the fight over the delegates has become and how deep the self-inflicted wounds are among Democrats, calling it "a typical Democratic firing squad."

"We're lining up in a circle," he said. "Maybe we're aiming low and shooting ourselves in the feet instead, but this makes no sense to me." E-mail to a friend


http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/06/florida.michigan/index.html

[Steve]

What a disaster this is turning into...

[second_pancake]

Ridiculous.  You either play by the rules or you don't.  If you don't, you don't get to play anymore.  Didn't we all learn this in kindergarten?

Each party thinks they can do whatever they please as long as it benefits them, and when it comes back to bite them in the ass then want to take it all back and start over.  In keeping with the juvenile theme, my stance is, NO TAKEY BACKIES!!!!

[thelakelander]

"Out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game," Dean said in a written statement Wednesday.

Both knew the rules going into it and neither followed them, so neither should allowed to be seated.  What's so hard about this?

[Steve]

Well it's a close race, so it's different now.

[thelakelander]

whatever happened to rules are rules...

[RiversideGator]

whatever happened to rules are rules...

Ask Al Gore about that...

Jokes aside, I dont see why the voters in the 3d most populous state, Florida, and the 8th most populous state, Michigan, should get no say in who becomes the Dem nominee.  Dont you think this will be used against the Dems in the fall?  I can tell you it will.  The US Constitution doesnt say that certain states have to vote in a certain order either.  This is something that the Dems made up very recently - to their eternal shame.

And all this trouble for a 46 year old state senator from Illinois with no track record of accomplishments of any kind.   

[thelakelander]

Looking at the world through rose colored glasses, I'd agree.  However, this is something that should have been fought out and decided beforehand, which would then have then given all candidates an equal playing field down the stretch.  You can't change the rules in the middle of the game because you don't like the score.  Once again a big mess is on the way.  Will someone take their ball and go home?   

[Steve]

Looking at the world through rose colored glasses, I'd agree.  However, this is something that should have been fought out and decided beforehand, which would then have then given all candidates an equal playing field down the stretch.  You can't change the rules in the middle of the game because you don't like the score.  Once again a big mess is on the way.  Will someone take their ball and go home?  

For McCain's camp, this couldn't have worked out any better.  While he is out discussing the issues, he can watch Clinton and Obama play rochambo with each other, and argue this delegate mess out over the next couple of months.

You know, considering Bush's approval rating, this was a perfect time for the Democrats to come out fighting, and have a truly engaging battle between Clinton and Obama, and get somebody battle ready for November.  Instead, they've managed to create a sideshow that really has nothing to do with the candidates themselves.

Howard Dean is running a hell of an organization over there.

[thelakelander]

I think Dean comes out better if he sticks to his guns and enforces the rules and punishment they have in place.  If they pick up and move the endzone to the 50 yard line with five minutes to go in the 3rd quarter, then the circus really begins.

[JeffreyS]

Everyone is just posturing like they care how the voters feel.  Hillary cares, but no one else wants to spend 25 mil on a redo.

[thelakelander]

Hillary didn't care a few months back, when this punishment was originally announced.  She only cares now because she needs those delegates.  Imo, Florida and Michigan put themselves in the position they are in today.  If anyone has a problem with it, they should take it out on their State governments for knowing the rules and disobeying them anyway.

[JeffreyS]

I hate to just repeat what Andy Johnson says on his radio show but seven months ago the Florida Republicans and Democrats were on the same page that maybe a large state should way in early in the primary process.  If you didn't want to take the chance that was the time to make a fuss.  The Democrats eased off that position when the national party said it wouldn't count.
The plan by both Florida parties has always been take it to court so do it.

[thelakelander]

The problem is the Florida Republicans and Democrats were not in a position to set the rules for the National Parties.  Allowing Florida to do whatever it wants only sets the precedent for other states to do as they please, making a total mockery out of the system.  Now its still being made into a big mess because of the National Democratic Party's lack of balls to stick with their original punishment.

[gatorback]

Bazaaro given ever since I can remember Florida had a voice in the dem primary race.