Skyway Merits Debated

[Lunican]

It should have been built like this:



But instead they built this:

[thelakelander]

I know this is a getting a bit off topic, but speaking of rail lines, when the state widened Riverside Ave a few years ago, they pulled up a bunch of railroad ties that were paved over.  It took a while to do it too.  They were hefty and looked to be built to last.  I'm not sure if they were trolly ties or regular freight railroad ties.

They were trolley ties from the Riverside line.

As far as the skyway goes, it always seemed over-engineered to me.  I don't know anything about engineering, but it seems to me a system like that could be build using much less material, perhaps an exposed steel frame.  Exposed steel structures can be made to look appealing.  If they had chosen to use rubber wheeled trains instead of a monorail, couldn't they have brought it down to the street level in spots, with barriers to keep the regular street vehicles out of the way?

Its definately over-engineered.  The skyway's capital costs per mile are on par with the capital costs of building underground subway systems.  This recently built peoplemover system in Indianapolis illustrates how much we wasted on the skyway.








This privately financed system was completed in 2003 for $42 million.  At 1.5 miles in length, that comes out to around $28 million per mile or roughly the same price tag as building JTA's dedicated busway plan.  The 2.5 mile skyway cost local taxpayers $184 million or $73.6 million per mile.

[Coolyfett]

I know this is a getting a bit off topic, but speaking of rail lines, when the state widened Riverside Ave a few years ago, they pulled up a bunch of railroad ties that were paved over.  It took a while to do it too.  They were hefty and looked to be built to last.  I'm not sure if they were trolly ties or regular freight railroad ties.

As far as the skyway goes, it always seemed over-engineered to me.  I don't know anything about engineering, but it seems to me a system like that could be build using much less material, perhaps an exposed steel frame.  Exposed steel structures can be made to look appealing.  If they had chosen to use rubber wheeled trains instead of a monorail, couldn't they have brought it down to the street level in spots, with barriers to keep the regular street vehicles out of the way?

As dumb as I may sound man I never knew they just paved over the tracks!!! I thought all that stuff was dug up and removed before new streets were laid. 9 times out of 10 whatever you saw on Riverside Ave was trolley tracks. Seems to me like most of the route is the old trolley route. I'm hoping the Skyway is ran to the Metro Park, Arena & etc. I was shocked to read that in 2005 book.

[Coolyfett]

This is a monorail technology.  Well, when the tracks were expanded, it appears that they just took the Matra design, and added a concrete beam in the middle, when they could have just gone with something like the Disney Monorail:
Why did JTA do this.  I have no idea.

So the concrete beam is basically "the Track". Would it be safe to have just the beam and not the supporting part underneath Steve?

[Steve]

So the concrete beam is basically "the Track". Would it be safe to have just the beam and not the supporting part underneath Steve?

I don't see any reason why not - every other monorail I've seen is just a beam:

Seattle Monorail


Disney Monorail

[Ocklawaha]

Okay, yes, most of the worlds monorails operate on single beam, concrete track. Some are metal beam track systems, some ride above and others hang below the rail. Either way the principal is the same. ONE BEAM and get the darn thing up and above the traffic and people.

Monorails are NOT NEW, having been around since about 1830... While railways themselves date to about 600 BCE. Modern Railway trams date (as far as we know) from about 1600. The fact is we haven't found any rails on top of ties that date any older then that but have written accounts going back long before Christ. When they decided to build rails as opposed to groved cut stone guideways is anyones guess. Even more fun, go to church Sunday, and tell your pastor that you've heard that the Apostle Paul was probably a railroad passenger! Watch his face give you the "you have issues..." stare. Fact is Paul went to Rome and crossed the Greece at Corinth, home of the first sea to sea railroad! If he booked passage on a ship of the time, and records say he did, then his passage included rail fare! BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

Back to Monorails, they are great at slower speeds. My own experience with several older systems says 45 or 50 is about the best that long term use can expect. Passenger loadings are also rather small on most systems. This is not DEMAND, it is CAPACITY, a system with less then crush hour capacitys of 30,000 Passengers per hour per direction is fairly useless for a large metro area or theme park. Ours has 3,000 PPHPD.  But again, keep in mind it's just another type of train on another type of track, change the equipment running on the track and we could WAY up those numbers.

Safety, Monorails are very safe, they don't crash into cars, trucks, trains, or anything else we are told. However they do have exposed electric rails which in our case are reachable by someone stepping out onto the beam, with no restraining devices or doors. This is dangerous stuff, with the ability to quick fry anyone to a crackly crunch in about a mili-second. Monorail folks also never mention where the lines are not high enough, they are sometimes knocked out by large trucks that didn't clear the beams. Similar to the idiot driver that tried to move the new Fuller Warren Bridge on Riverside a few months ago in his big rig. The OKC monorail was completely taken down by such an accident. Safety requires a way to remove passengers from the trains in the event of a failure. This doesn't mean we have to build sidewalks and can be done several ways. A simple metal cat walk between the tracks will do, so will trains that allow passage from car to car with doors on the ends. A simple gas mechanical rescue vehicle can run out and pull off anything stalled. Lastly, to my knowledge, there have been two major incidents in recent history with monorail safety. Both from the fact that most systems use many rubber tires on the beams. Both involved tire shreding and in one case the falling drive tire struck and nearly killed someone under the vehicle. But building like we built for these rare cases is like flying a jumbo jet with a net under it in case an engine falls off... DUMB!

I am not and never have been a big fan of rubber tired monorails or people movers. I fought it back in the 1980's and labeled it a horizontal elevator that would become the "Turkey project of Jacksonville". I wish I had been wrong. Now that we have the huge investment, it does make sense to complete the downtown distributer network and change the trains to higher capacity units.

I suggest the following:

Extend East to the Stadium District via BAY STREET - hence North on RANDOLPH to Arlington Expy. Where a large multi-modal garage/bus/train/streetcar station could be built.

Extend North to First Street, FCCJ or just South and East of Bethel Church. This would allow Springfielders to enjoy the park or downtown, and FCCJ students to avoid STATE and UNION.

Extend West to curve South and fish-hook around the Prime Osbourne Center, hence dropping down to ground level and comming in at a platform across from rail and bus.

Extend Southwest down Riverside Avenue to Blue Cross, if nothing happens to PS-4 then turn west and head down Rosell to Annie Lytle and create a multi-transit 5 points terminal out of the old school.

Extend Southeast OVER I-95 to the new Hilton, hence over the FEC railroad and down the west side of the railroad to Atlantic Avenue in San Marco. Over the RR wipes out a 100 year old probblem in San Marco of being cut off from the City by trains. The Atlantic Station would have BUS/SKYWAY/COMMUTER RAIL.

STUDY MATERIAL ONLY...

Look at replacing the BRT on I-95 North with Skyway from Rosa Parks to 95, hence North to Shands and behind Shands, a transit center on the old "S" line where Skyway/BUS/TRAIN/STREETCAR all meet.

Look at possible extensions from Randolph and Arlington Expressway over the new Matthews Bridge, along with LRT. YES HIGHWAY-SKYWAY-RAIL on one bridge. Hence move the Skyway up University to JU

Look at possible extensions from South of the new San Marco Hilton, Eastward to Memorial Hospital or University and Beach Blvd, again a SKYWAY-BUS interchange

Any thoughts? BTW, some systems are coming in for as little as $10-20 million a mile, with stuff that would meet all of the above demands...

Ocklawaha

[gatorback]

But how does the cost compare to a cable car, like the ones that ski lifts use.

[thelakelander]

Any idea on what happened to the cable car plan that was to extend from Kings Avenue Station to Jax Municipal Stadium and then down Bay, to reconnect with the skyway?

Friday, March 16, 2007

Ride in the sky

Jacksonville Business Journal - by Christian Conte Staff Writer

Public transportation in Downtown Jacksonville could be up in the air -- literally.

Local developer Mike Balanky hopes to establish a committee of public officials and local business owners next month to consider the feasibility of and possible funding mechanisms for an aerial cable car system that could link the Southbank to the Northbank from the Kings Avenue parking garage to the Jacksonville Municipal Stadium.

"There's a possibility that we wouldn't proceed at all," said Balanky, president of Chase Properties Inc., who first proposed the idea a year ago. "But we think there's a really good chance that we will."

Several companies provide aerial cable car services, but Balanky has had preliminary discussions with Doppelmayr CTEC Inc., the American branch of an Austrian company that specializes in ropeway transportation systems.

Randy Woolwine, the vice president of sales at Doppelmayr's U.S. headquarters in Salt Lake City, said gondola systems can serve as a good supplement or alternative to an existing or stressed urban transportation system, but they are not ideal for every city.

"A gondola system is not the answer to all transportation problems, but it is the answer to some."

A gondola system can carry up to 2,400 passengers per hour, equivalent to 60, 40-passenger buses, Woolwine said. In urban settings, gondolas are best for transporting very large groups a short distance, such as from a parking garage on the outskirts of a downtown to the heart of the city or from a parking garage to a stadium.

However, they may not be useful in an area of a city that does not have full buses and a demand for more, Woolwine said.

Electric-powered gondolas pollute less than gasoline-powered vehicles, eliminate the need for roadway expansions and are a safer mode of travel than the alternative. Still, Woolwine said, they do have limitations. Gondolas should not be used in heavy winds and require regular maintenance that involve shutting down the system for several days during the first five years and more often for longer periods as the system ages.

A mile-long system with no stops in between would cost $8 million to $10 million, Woolwine said. Each additional stop along the way would add $2 million to the cost. That figure does not include the construction of terminals or infrastructure changes such as parking structures and the access needed to accommodate the system.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/03/19/story2.html?b=1174276800^1431855

[Jason]

Ock, your plans sound ideal to me.  Also, mix that up with some historic trolly lines in the old streetcar suburbs and tie it all together with aforementioned commuter rail system and a line to the beaches.  Lock it all together with some strict development guidlines along our current urban development boundaires and Jacksonville will likely explode from the inside out with people and skyscrapers. 

[thelakelander]

That's the easy part, now we just have to figure out how to fund it.  If we can come up with realistic funding solutions that don't require raising taxes in a time when people are losing jobs and getting their houses foreclosed, then we'll be on our way.

[Coolyfett]

So the concrete beam is basically "the Track". Would it be safe to have just the beam and not the supporting part underneath Steve?

I don't see any reason why not - every other monorail I've seen is just a beam:

Seattle Monorail


Disney Monorail

Yea....but in the pics your posting those monorails have I guess more mass below the trains that hug the beam. The Skyway trains have those lil wheels. What prevents those trains from falling over?

[Coolyfett]

I think Ock answered my question about those tires and the trains falling off the beams. The east track is a must!! Too many points of interest. And after reading a few post, I totally forgot about the City Hall Annex, The Berkmen 1 & 2, The Club/bar strip, The Florida Theater & The Police Headquarters. The Skyway going east would do more then just serve Metro Park & The Sports Complex. I still feel the east expansion would make JTA the most money. I know many people hate the Skyway system & I kinda understand. IMO there are only 2 strong stations. Hemming Plaza Station and San Marco Station. The other 6 need a lil help. With Ock's additions the system would be way better.

Ock, your plans sound ideal to me.  Also, mix that up with some historic trolley lines in the old streetcar suburbs and tie it all together with aforementioned commuter rail system and a line to the beaches.  Lock it all together with some strict development guidelines along our current urban development boundaires and Jacksonville will likely explode from the inside out with people and skyscrapers. 

Trolleys? Why? So cars & bikes can run into them? Trolleys don't move faster than Monorails. A passenger would have to get off a skyway train to hop on a trolley? Why not just run the skyway to the final destination Jason? (hey that rhymes!! )

[Coolyfett]

I suggest the following:

Extend North to First Street, FCCJ or just South and East of Bethel Church. This would allow Springfielders to enjoy the park or downtown, and FCCJ students to avoid STATE and UNION.

Extend West to curve South and fish-hook around the Prime Osbourne Center, hence dropping down to ground level and coming in at a platform across from rail and bus.

These are the 2 I'm not understanding

1. How about just going all the way to 8th Street near Shands? That would give the hospital and Springfield access. Does FCCJ need 2 stations?

2. The Terminal Station is close enough to the Convention Center Ock. Wouldn't it be cheaper to build one of those tunnel things like what what Baptist Hospital uses to connect to the Children's Hospital over the Fuller Warren. I think Shands has one as well. What are those walkways called? Im not sure the actual term, but one could be built to put a Skyway rider right inside the Convention Center.......hit me back Ock

[Ocklawaha]

Coolyfett: Hello, and thanks for the input.

The reasons we cannot advance the Skyway beyond FCCJ is the problem with BUCK ROGERS -V- HISTORIC DISTRICT. Monorails and Springfield unless we did a study of I-95 corridor really suck. They also do not do well at higher speed so once it left a future station, say about the Ritz Theater, and turned up 95 North, it wouldn't have another stop until Shands. Nobody lives on I-95... Same problem with the goofy BRT plan.

I'd go to the North side of FCCJ downtown as crossing State and Union Street is a hazard to anyone. College Students are our future, at least we could protect them. Perhaps take it to the lot East of Bethel Church and 1st street, but please only to get to bus or Trolley connections.

The Union Station or Terminal idea is to raze the current Bay Street station (they plan a parking garage there) and swing south and hook around the back side of the Convention Center. This would give us bus and track side, ground level Skyway interchanges. Bottom line, the Prime Osbourne, even expanded is VERY limited on time... I've seen bigger high school gyms. Once we build a REAL convention center, this place will be a natural terminal for all major transportation modes without the need to fill 1/2 of LaVilla with expensive new buildings. Let's save that money and build a REAL convention center downtown, then convert the terminal into a TRANSPORTATION TEMPLE circa 1919 as God intended it. I feel the Skyway should be a ground level, across the platform player in any such plan.


Skyway in BLUE, Streetcar (STARTER LINE) in thin green, BRT Bus in Red.

Now about the Trolleys...Here are a few positive facts for those who just don't get it:

History: We once had the States largest System, most advanced, best equiped. Our Main, Palmetto, Pearl and some other lines were known around the world as the most beautiful streetcar lines in the world. It's a bit of glory we could recapture.

Cost: In spite of JTA's Pie in the sky estimates, Historic Light Rail has been built for around 2-8 million dollars a mile in every city. That's about 20 million a mile LESS then JTA's super bus sytem.

TOD: Trolley rail has brought in BILLIONS of dollars in development wherever it has been tried. Even tiny lines like Tacoma, Tampa and tiny El Reno, Oklahoma have experienced huge booms on the Trolley lines.

JTA MYTHS: Streetcars are a form of "COMMUTER RAIL", even if JTA says it's not... It's a no brainer, RAIL THAT CARRIES COMMUTERS..." Duh. Because it IS a railroad first, it doesn't have to be in the street. It can be in a median, side of the road, elevated, subway, railroad track, abandoned railroad line, etc... anywhere we can put rails. The advantage is, they can roll down Water Street past the landing, Omni, and Hyatt like any city bus. Then within a few blocks be on their own track, horn blowing, and crossing gates going down as they fly toward the next station.


JTA says Trolleys are SLOW and MUST compete with Automobile traffic. I offer this actual photo of an
event that happened TWICE in this same location. In  the 1930's the Cincinnati and Lake Erie Railway (a trolley interurban line) was challenged to a race (TWICE) by early aircraft... First a bi-wing plane, then a ford tri-motor. Both times the Trolley left the plane in it's dust at something around 100 mph. BTW, they also accellerate much faster then buses or cars. The early airlines wanted to snuff out the faster and cleaner electric Railways. Neither in the street, competing with traffic or slow, a joke circulated around  the industry.

A farmer saw a plane crash and found the badly bruised pilot laying in a hay stack...

Excited about it the farmer asked quickly, "Hey were you the fella racing that Trolley Car?"

The pilot moaned and nodded a feable, "yes."

"Well what happened to ya?" the farmer inquired.

The pilot confessed, "That darn trolley ran out from under me so fast, I thought my airplane had stopped, so I got out to see what was the matter..."

SLOW: Streetcars have been held to 30 mph by choice in most systems because they are kept to downtown historic district streets and/or share a road with cars. You really wouldn't want them to go faster there. SO OF COURSE JTA has listed streetcars as slower then buses. UNTRUE! The motors in the streetcar are not unlike the toy slot cars many of us had as kids. A bit of tweeking and they are the same motors that the French Railroad just broke 300 MPH with. In other words, we can have our cake and eat it too.

TOURISM: Jacksonvile was once called the Queen of the Winter Resorts. There are 5 MILLION + rail fans in the World, most with above average income. We did a marketing study that showed 500,000 a year would visit our city just to ride our historic stretcars... that's more the 6 Super Bowls a year!

Finally, Real streetcars + Riverside + Avondale + Fairfax + Ortega + Springfield + LaVilla + Fairfield + San Marco + San Jose... Oh my God, they go together like Orange Juice and Sunrise.

MIX: Transit mix, now unlike a department store with choices will always out perform transit dictatorships. Hey! How about we ride that Jacksonville Monorail thing to the game and go back to the post game at the Landing on that cool old trolley? By the way, did you see they replaced those stupid shuttle bus "faux trolleys" with REAL VINTAGE BUSES TOO? Oh, our friends already left on the water taxi... Well except for the two new guys, they took the commuter rail North to Springfield, where they plan to ride about the "S" to Union Station and catch up with us at the landing.... WHAT? NOBODY CHOSE THE BRT? Not a chance JTA, Not a chance!

Ocklawaha

[Coolyfett]

The reasons we cannot advance the Skyway beyond FCCJ is the problem with BUCK ROGERS -V- HISTORIC DISTRICT. Monorails and Springfield unless we did a study of I-95 corridor really suck. They also do not do well at higher speed so once it left a future station, say about the Ritz Theater, and turned up 95 North, it wouldn't have another stop until Shands. Nobody lives on I-95... Same problem with the goofy BRT plan.

I'd go to the North side of FCCJ downtown as crossing State and Union Street is a hazard to anyone. College Students are our future, at least we could protect them. Perhaps take it to the lot East of Bethel Church and 1st street, but please only to get to bus or Trolley connections.

The Union Station or Terminal idea is to raze the current Bay Street station (they plan a parking garage there) and swing south and hook around the back side of the Convention Center. This would give us bus and track side, ground level Skyway interchanges. Bottom line, the Prime Osbourne, even expanded is VERY limited on time... I've seen bigger high school gyms. Once we build a REAL convention center, this place will be a natural terminal for all major transportation modes without the need to fill 1/2 of LaVilla with expensive new buildings. Let's save that money and build a REAL convention center downtown, then convert the terminal into a TRANSPORTATION TEMPLE circa 1919 as God intended it. I feel the Skyway should be a ground level, across the platform player in any such plan.
Ocklawaha

I sorta understand the buck rogers v. historic thing. It just sux to have to get off one vehicle to get on a different vehicle thats going the same direction.... NORTH. Guessing the Skyway going east is more important. The students only have to cross State Street Ock. Rosa Parks Station is between State and Union, but a Station beyond 1st Street would be great. All for preserving the historic areas, just hope Springfield and Riverside's riders could have skyway access without getting on a different vehicle.

I agree the Union Terminal/Convention Center should be a transportation hub.  Always thought that was a great idea. But Ock I still don't see the point in building another station on the southside of the Union Terminal/Convention Center. I'm thinking your talking about the place where you all discovered those tunnels right? The area between Brooklyn and the actually building?

That area seems like it will be getting a complete face lift by 2010. According to Steve's Bay Street Station post.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,1799.msg14851/topicseen.html#new

If this does happen the Skyway system would definitely have to be expanded. I doubt the city will leave it as is forever