Jacksonville - Miami Rail Project Still Moving Forward

[reednavy]

holiday weekend

[Ocklawaha]

A little off topic, but what happened w/Amtrak's prices? I wanted to get a round trip from here to tampa this weekend, it's $120!!!
I can drive my V8 truck for cheaper than that!

It's all seasonal, same trick the airlines and bus companies use. Try Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Memorial Day or Labor Day, any winter month in South Florida, and summer months in Vermont, Maine and the Pacific Northwest and you'll pay the price. Simple Supply and Demand. This is the reason we should all be raising HELL about the loss of so many trains under "Amtrak's Rescue" banner. It was bad enough that they cut 3/4's of all passenger trains off the day they started, SINCE they started they have cut:

NY-FL    The Champion
NY-FL    The Miamian
NY-JAX  The Palmetto (First Operation)
NY-FL    The Palmetto (Second Operation)
NY-FL    The Florida Special  (Seasonal Train)
NY-FL    The Vacationer (Seasonal Train)
CHI-FL   The Floridian
NORL-FL The Sunset
TPA-MIA The Silver Palm

and most recently:

ALL TRAINS VIA Waldo (Gainesville), Ocala, Wildwood, Dade City

With the congressional delegation we have in power, and HAVE HAD for several years, there is simply no excuse for our part of the nation to have been so ravaged by Amtrak and GW's Budget Bandits.  Had the COJ stood up, and got loud, had we arranged a summit meeting or two, had the council and chamber and JTA passed resolutions of support... Well, it wouldn't have happened this way.

Now? Miami is getting the Terminal, and Orlando-Tampa is getting the Railroad, and Kissimmee-Deland is getting the Commuter Rail, and what do we have to show for it? "Monster Truck Show at The Prime Osbourne Next Week!"  More Jacksonville political Bull Shit!


Imagine Jacksonville? This is the growth chart for AMTRAK CALIFORNIA where the State and Cities have gotten behind Amtrak and created a diverse system that actually networks. If you turn these charts backward they are amazingly close to Florida's Amtrak Record.


OCKLAWAHA

[coredumped]

Good (and depressing for us) info Ock!

holiday weekend

Duh - I didn't even think about that!
While I much prefer the train it looks like I'll be taking my truck this weekend. Too bad, it's nice to stretch out and watch a movie for a few hours.

I'll need to plan ahead next year.

[tufsu1]

btw....$120 is still cheapert than the cost of driving....total cost of driving is $0.50 per mile...which would be about $100 each way

[coredumped]

$0.50 per mile? What vehicle is that? When I said truck I meant pickup truck, not a semi (perhaps I should have clarified)
My pickup gets abut 15MPG, so:

Roundtrip  JAX -> TPA - > JAX 400 miles

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400 / 15 = 27  (miles / mpg)
27 * 2.75  =  $75 (gals * cost of gallon)


And that's if I round everything up.

[Ocklawaha]

Humm? A 45' foot Eagle Model 15 Motor Coach get's 8 - 9 mpg highway...  Maybe I should bring one over and we'll all "Bus Pool" to Miami!

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Maybe a new business venture Ock...................BRT to Maimi? Dingle balls in the windows, blackout tint and one killer stero system?

[tufsu1]

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[quote author=coredumped link=topic=7984.msg141780#msg141780 date=1270071733]
$0.50 per mile???? What vehicle is that?
[/quote]

that is the IRS calculation for 2010...but don't think about just gas...it is gas, maintenance, repairs, and insurance.

[JeffreyS]

Cost of car in terms of depreciation is also included.

[stjr]

Cost of car in terms of depreciation is also included.

don't think about just gas...it is gas, maintenance, repairs, and insurance.

Add interest/financing costs and taxes.

Also, the rail fare probably covers some cost of building and maintaining the rails but you could also add a tiny portion of our taxes.  With the exception of toll roads, I don't see drivers factoring in the cost of the roadway in their mileage costs.  Add a much larger portion (compared to rail) of our general tax burden devoted to roads, and road travel skyrockets.

[coredumped]

Except, I already bought the car, insurance and drive it daily. (anyone want to make a poll of people who don't have a car & live in jax?)

If you want to get that detailed we must include the cost of travel, the train is an extra 2 hours each way, so 4 hours x $25/hr = $100, ($25/hr ~ wage for someone in my field) not including me having to get up early (which i hate:)

I'd prefer to take the train, but the price cannot be 2x my personal vehicle. I've taken it to Tampa before and would love to again, but in this case but it's just not cost effective.

[stjr]

Except, I already bought the car, insurance and drive it daily. (anyone want to make a poll of people who don't have a car & live in jax?)

Fair enough to value your time.  But, then add your increased time to take the car to a shop for more frequent maintenance visits to keep up with the extra mileage.  And, the added costs of more oil changes, tire purchases,  tune ups, and accelerated manufacturer maintenance scheduling (usually every 15K miles), etc.  Not to mention the advancement toward that mileage that motivates you to replace the car altogether.

And, even though you already own the car, its depreciation is significantly impacted by the odometer reading.  Every mile you put on cost you in depreciation on the back end.  Insurance may be fixed but it can go up if you put on excess mileage over about 7,500 to 10,000 miles, as I recall, under many policies.  Another "hidden cost" is that, as a statistical fact, the more miles you drive, the greater the chance one is exposed to having an accident of some sort.  Spread the cost of that over your years of miles!

In the end, few people have really considered the true costs of miles driven.

I will concede that due to the distortions created by the super-heavily subsidized road network, we can all arrive at conclusions that are not reflective of the total costs of travel (our costs + the subsidies).  If roads were all tolled, the decision in favor of driving would be far more infrequent.

P.S. The decision, under our existing ways of the world, also leans more toward driving as the number of passengers increases since the mileage costs are relatively unchanged (may increase some for reduced gas mileage) regardless of the number of passengers.  Not so with seat tickets on rail.  So, for 1 or 2 passengers, rail may win, for 3, 4, or more, driving may be on top.  Again, if all true costs were computed, mass transit should almost always be cheaper than the auto.

[urbanlibertarian]

"Again, if all true costs were computed, mass transit should almost always be cheaper than the auto."

True, but the auto will almost always be more convenient and that's very valuable.

[thelakelander]

Fortunately, expanding passenger rail service is more about giving people actual cost effective travel options rather than trying to pry people from behind the wheels of their cars.

[Ocklawaha]

Except, I already bought the car, insurance and drive it daily. (anyone want to make a poll of people who don't have a car & live in jax?)

If you want to get that detailed we must include the cost of travel, the train is an extra 2 hours each way, so 4 hours x $25/hr = $100, ($25/hr ~ wage for someone in my field) not including me having to get up early (which i hate:)

I'd prefer to take the train, but the price cannot be 2x my personal vehicle. I've taken it to Tampa before and would love to again, but in this case but it's just not cost effective.

*{1} The Kitten known as Chessie, wandered into a Chesapeake and Ohio Railroad Roundhouse in the 1930's, only to be adopted by the railroaders and later the whole railroad as CHESSIE THE KITTEN. Chessie traveled the system and had his own sleeping car berth where the famous Kitten image came from. Even in modern times when the detailed or ornate logos of yesteryear had faded, Chessie still managed to have it's silhouette carved into the giant "C" of C&O, on every locomotive, car and caboose, until absorbed by CSX.



I have a question for you... IF the train ran several times a day, perhaps even a short overnight schedule say maybe 10pm out of Jax, and 7am arrival in Miami, would THAT make a difference? Consider you could sleep all the way to Miami, which you will have to do either here at home or in some hotel. I've been after not only added daylight service from Jax - Miami, and Jax - Tpa, but also OVERNIGHT service. If the track work speeds up the schedule to 6 hours, then a 12:00 Midnight - 6:00am time slot would work. Seems to me a moving bedroom is superior to having to either drive OR lose valuable daylight hours.

Does anyone else agree? I'd like to hear from all of you on this one as I'm soon meeting with AMTRAK.

Consider some possible items as you consider this imagined trip:

The train could arrive in Miami in the way early hours such as 4am-6am time frame, BUT use the old railroad practice of allowing sleeping passengers to remain in "bed" until 8am.

The trains would be carrying through cars to or from the Northeast, so the market is not just JAX-MIA/TPA, rather the market is NYC-EWR-PHL-BWI-DCA-JAX-MIA/TPA, and return.

Another old railroad practice, allowing the JAX-MIA sleeping car and coach to be pre-boarded and occupied as early as 9pm and it is switched into the train before it pulls out for points south.

Being able to take your auto along for a flat rate, perhaps another $100 dollars each way?


Would these or other idea's convince any of you that the train might indeed be the most convenient and economical (both in dollars and time) to Miami/Tampa? Train travel by night is one of the lost wonders of the modern world and next to a giant cradle there is NOTHING else like it anywhere, thus the old slogan, "Sleep Like a Kitten" which was written about the night trains of the Chessipeak and Ohio (or *{1}Chessie) that is now a component of our own CSX.


OCKLAWAHA