JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

[thelakelander]

Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

How does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.

You obviously haven't taken the bus through DT in a while.  What I just mentioned was better utilizing what we already have in place, not expansion.  Eliminating the DT loop would save everyone a ton of time and JTA O&M money.  The skyway is already in operation, so that cost won't increase.  However, bus times will be reduced for those who travel into DT and those who are just passing through on their way to other destinations. 

Lastly, regardless of one's feelings for the $ky-high-way, there is so much more and better low hanging mass transit "fruit" to pick, that the $ky-high-way should be way down the list for any future investment.  IMHO, I would pursue a streetcar or commuter system that has a realistic chance to prove to the jaded citizenry at large here the true potential of a rail system, not pour money into an existing system that has repeatedly demonstrated its potential to greatly disappoint again and again.

I agree that implementing streetcars and commuter rail would be more beneficial to the city than expanding the skyway.  However, I do believe that Jax would be better off better utilizing and integrating it with other modes than ignoring it.

[Captain Zissou]

Captain, even with the proposed extensions by Ock, it won't go to where people currently live (the stadium, Brooklyn, most of the distance to Shands, down Kings Road in San Marco).  And, I think Ock would agree, those are the outer limits of the system, even for its most ardent supporters.  So, how do you think expanding it will address your point?

I get what you're saying, but you contradict your own argument (IMO).  The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..). If we expanded to the stadium, san marco, and shands (as you propose), we would reach where thousands of people live and work and play.  Tell me you don't believe the shipyards wouldn't take off if the skyway ran past it.  

I agree that a streetcar would be more feasible for a from scratch system, but we already have a skyway.  Lake and Ock have put up the numbers for a no frill expansion line and it's not too bad.  

[Coolyfett]

*smiles*

[Ocklawaha]

Captain, even with the proposed extensions by Ock, it won't go to where people currently live (the stadium, Brooklyn, most of the distance to Shand's, down Kings Road in San Marco).  And, I think Ock would agree, those are the outer limits of the system, even for its most ardent supporters.  So, how do you think expanding it will address your point?

I get what you're saying, but you contradict your own argument (IMO).  The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..). If we expanded to the stadium, san marco, and shands (as you propose), we would reach where thousands of people live and work and play.  Tell me you don't believe the shipyards wouldn't take off if the skyway ran past it.  

I agree that a streetcar would be more feasible for a from scratch system, but we already have a skyway.  Lake and Ock have put up the numbers for a no frill expansion line and it's not too bad.  

Interesting guys, if money were no object these would be the expansions, connections, and routes:

BAY STREET WEST:

Central Station, (Add Skywalks with Kiosk space to Omni and ATT).
Jefferson Street Station, Install demand service only using a common elevator touch pad on each car and platform.
Jacksonville Terminal, Raised and protected cross walk + a moving inclined walk that would run from Tunnel Level to Skyway Platform Level.  Tunnels would be extended (simple cut and cover construction) from the railroad Concourse to the North Side of Bay Street.  The area under Bay and under the current Convention Center Parking lot would be enlarged for retail, food and vendors.
Farmers Market at Beaver Street, (multi-modal) new station with ground level terminal tracks, divided from busway by single sheltered platforms.

STADIUM:

Central Station (see above improvements)
Commerce Station, (at Modis, BOA etc...) Less needless sprawling of the facility and more emphasis on connectivity, passenger comfort, connection's, foul weather protection, building connections and vendor space.
Newnan Station, (multi-modal) A simple affair, over the intersection of Bay, with an interesting link to the streetcar and bus interchange below.
East Bay Street Station, Convention Center or Shipyards or both, with a fixed link to the Police Station.
Fairfield Station, (multi-modal) garage connected, streetcar, BRT, bus, interchange. If built on the riverfront, I'd add River Taxi Connection's with a boarding area just steps from the monorail, buses or streetcars. This station would contain ground level cross-platform transfers, mall, food court, security, retail, services, protected walks and architecture to compliment the historic street.

NORTH LINE:

Central Station:
Hemming Plaza Station: Rebuilt with City Ticket Office, Rest Rooms, food court.
Rosa Parks Station: Add lots on east and west, landscape seating, cooling off area, vendors.
Bethel Station: nested between church, FCJ, County Health Department, a simple on demand station.
Boulevard Station: (multi-modal), a simple station located over the road next to the residential towers and apartments, station would feature two easy access busway lanes (north and southbound) simplest form of interchange station.
Veterans Station, New VA Clinic, nested into facility with food court Incorporated.

RIVERSIDE LINE:

Central Station:
Skyway Station: Retro look full service station located between Skyway shops and Riverside Avenue. Space open for vendors, retail, food, as well as bus lanes, station might be low level, if not ground level from certain elevations.
Forest Street: (multi-modal) Restrooms, retail, food, vendors, with easy access for bus, streetcar and Skyway patrons. Focus on seamless interchange, landscape shade, ease of movement, connectivity, urban lifestyle, protection from elements (heat - sun - rain - cold) in this particularly exposed area.
Art Market Station (Roselle at Park M/L): A simple virtual copy of the Commerce Station, with A emphasis on the "Art's Market theme".
Annie Lytle/Riverside Park Station, (multi-modal) station built from converted historic school, a unique stop and destination, all in one. Skyway would enter from Roselle Street and end against the building. station would include FULL FEATURE mall, security - City Ticket Office - Information, community or cinematic theater, retail, food, vendors, upscale restaurant-grill-bar-club. Broad busway lanes running east-west under the north-south Skyway tracks. Space on College Street for future streetcar at curbside.

SOUTHSIDE LINE:

Central Station:
San Marco Station, (immediate name change "Friendship Park") skywalks into Prudential, Aetna, Baptist, Baptist Medical Arts, Wolfson, Nemours. Station rebuild would include vendor space, security, micro-stores.
River Place: On demand station, Improve streetlevel access with all weather canopy's, allow vendors, reconfigure per plan.
Kings Avenue Station: (multi-modal) Rebuild with purpose, add or open up the restrooms, food vendors, Information - security, City Ticket Window. Remove the sky walk to garage. Use ramps and inclines to make the station experience child friendly.
Hilton Station: On demand station, opens left or right for garage or hotels, only on demand. Station elevated and positioned between the buildings.
SAN MARCO STATION, (multi-modal) The "new" San Marco Station, located on the west side of the Florida East Coast Railway tracks, just north of Atlantic Avenue in San Marco. Features an overpass over the railroad for pedestrians. (Child Friendly), FULL SERVICE STATION, vendors, food, retail, kiosk's, security, information, City Ticket Office.


POTENTIAL "NEXT" PHASE/S:

Saint Nicholas Station: in the St. Nicholas Business District.
Memorial Station, Memorial Hospital
Arlington Station:
JU Station:

Please note these are NOT lines and stations I would build tomorrow, but certainly would study adding them to the mix for our downtown transportation. Likewise, it is easy to see which stations would be effected if we had funding and approval to FIX THE CURRENT SYSTEM.  Please no posts about how "Skyway Bob has gone over the Cuckoo's nest." The STREETCAR is a much better vehicle for our longer term needs, however it would be just plain irresponsible to build streetcar without strengthening  the Skyway as a compliment to feed eachother.  NETWORK!! MATRIX!! Swamp-Creek-River-Sea-Ocean = They all have their place in the system.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Ock:

The STREETCAR is a much better vehicle for our longer term needs

Lake:

I agree that implementing streetcars and commuter rail would be more beneficial to the city than expanding the skyway.

Captain:

I agree that a streetcar would be more feasible for a from scratch system

Gentlemen, I am easy to please tonight.  This will do just fine.  Thank you for the candor.

[Coolyfett]

It would great riding the Skyway from Riverside to the Sports Complex....sounds like  a good thing.

[stjr]

The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..).

Captain, this was the argument, in part, used by supporters to build the existing system.  Do you see one residential structure that the $ky-high-way inspired on its route?  Do you see one employer that developed around it?*  Nope, another failed promise.  Why do you think it will be better in Brooklyn or the Shipyards if doesn't work downtown where the most convenience could be derived?

Heck, even in San Marco, three high rise condos were built, and not one of them appears to take direct aim at leveraging the nearby $ky-high-way.  And, as I suggested before, one might think the over-the-river route would be the number one use for the $ky-high-way.  Even Ock or Lake implied this as I recall.  Guess those developers didn't see much advantage to it and they put their money where their mouth is.

* The developer of the Omni/Wachovia block actually sued to try and PREVENT a $ky-high-way station being built on their property!

[mtraininjax]

Thankfully the city has no money in the foreseeable future for pie in the sky dreams. Apparently none of you are part of the 12% unemployment of our area. Anyone care to tell those displaced that we need to build a light rail system with their unemployment benefits and that we cannot start the project until half of it is funded which means they will have to starve for months before they qualify for a job which by then will have been outsourced to cheap foreign labor? Who wants to be first?

[Ocklawaha]

The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..).

Captain, this was the argument, in part, used by supporters to build the existing system.  Do you see one residential structure that the $ky-high-way inspired on its route?  Do you see one employer that developed around it?*  Nope, another failed promise.  Why do you think it will be better in Brooklyn or the Shipyards if doesn't work downtown where the most convenience could be derived?

Heck, even in San Marco, three high rise condos were built, and not one of them appears to take direct aim at leveraging the nearby $ky-high-way.  And, as I suggested before, one might think the over-the-river route would be the number one use for the $ky-high-way.  Even Ock or Lake implied this as I recall.  Guess those developers didn't see much advantage to it and they put their money where their mouth is.

* The developer of the Omni/Wachovia block actually sued to try and PREVENT a $ky-high-way station being built on their property!

According to the October 1, 1994, issue of Railway Age Magazine, both the Omni and the Wachovia Bank are located downtown, because the Skyway attracted them. Moreover the 1994 report says that several other businesses are planning to move forward with the advancement of converting the APM to Monorail. Any property dispute was simple posturing for location.

Absolutely, a vintage streetcar system, as I proposed in a Jacksonville DDA presentation with the full backing of Jim Catlett, Jim Wells, and Eric Smith, would have been superior to the Skyway (as built).  The APM concept (automated people mover) is great for airports or department stores, but it is hardly "rapid" transit. One has to give credit to JTA for seeing this light, and dumping the APM before we built the Southside lines, creating one of the nations first (though thoroughly flawed) monorail systems. Any Amway dealer can tell you to succeed one needs to "Plan their Work AND Work their Plan..." JTA did neither with the original Skyway, as I have pointed out over and over, they not only didn't finish one single leg of the proposed system, the small portion they did finish went the opposite direction of 5 plans, 2 major national consulting firms, and 14 route proposals!!

Your statements such as "Why do you think it will be better in Brooklyn or the Shipyards if doesn't work downtown where the most convenience could be derived?" implies that the technology doesn't work. This would be wrong stjr.  It works fine in Disney, where a nearly identical technology (actually a little more primitive and manual) carries such loads as to make it one of the largest mass transit operations in the world. Seattle's has worked since 1964 without a hitch. Germany has one running since the mid-1800's.

Since there is nothing wrong with our citizens, IE: they don't have 5 legs, horns, headlights and wings, and their personalities and problems are pretty much a microcosm of Americanized urbanity nationwide. Since people live, work, and play in downtown... and since the Skyway is a proved successful technology in other cities, then our challenge is to find out what is wrong. Obviously it's not the citizen/passenger or the technology, so the trail leads right back to JTA's door, therein is the problem.

Ideally for both modes, we would have built BOTH systems in their entirety. Skyway sweeping down from Shand's to Riverside or San Marco, as well as from Jacksonville Terminal to the Stadium, and streetcars running every 10 minutes from deep inside Ortega/Fairfax/Avondale all the way up to Springfield/Durkeeville/Brentwood/Gateway.
The two complimentary systems would work together as an expansive originator and terminator network, feeding each other. Commuter Rail and Amtrak Regional would be the big dog, along with Commuter Air, all routes would go to or from their gateways. The Bus, BRT and River Taxi system would be the local forces, reaching every small pinprick on our map. I'd put money on it that we could do better, much, much, better... the above list of station's is just one example of the easy little things that would make huge friendly improvements.

You are increasingly reminding me of a guy President Kennedy once told us about. You seem to look at Jacksonville and our Skyway and say "WHY!"  In 30+ years of contact with it, I've learned to look at Jacksonville and the Skyway and say "WHY NOT?" ...and I'm very happy the professional's at Metro Jacksonville agree with me.


LAST MINUTE UPDATE FOR MTRAIN: Oh yes it does...  Watch for the Skyway and Streetcars to be up and running within 5 years, with big announcements due this fall. Keep in mind this is NOT the same funding source as utilities, or schools, parks, law enforcement or libraries, but there ARE dedicated funds which we can either use, or they'll be used in Atlanta, Chicago, or Des Moines.


OCKLAWAHA

[tufsu1]

LAST MINUTE UPDATE FOR MTRAIN: [/color][/b][/i]Oh yes it does...  Watch for the Skyway and Streetcars to be up and running within 5 years, with big announcements due this fall. Keep in mind this is NOT the same funding source as utilities, or schools, parks, law enforcement or libraries, but there ARE dedicated funds which we can either use, or they'll be used in Atlanta, Chicago, or Des Moines.
OCKLAWAHA

I assume you're implying that there are Federal funds out there....maybe a special appropriation (earmark) in the new transportation authorization...otherwise, I don't see any Fed funs for construction coming here withjout having first completed the necessary environmental studies.

[Ocklawaha]

You'll be amazed! In fact there would be a hell of a lot more then "this" if the City Council would quit playing politics with mass transit. I'll talk to you in private if you wish, perhaps Monday?


OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

just dont hire the guy who did the disney monorail

Now that I am re reading this the Disney train seems better than the Skyway train lol

The Disney Monorail system is among the top transit systems in the world in numbers of riders daily. In size it is pretty compact compared to New York Subway, or Los Angeles which is again approaching 1,000 miles of fixed rail transit of various types*(1).

Disney being the $$ creature that it is has built a first class LOOKING monorail, and some of the mechanical components are used by suppliers for long endurance testing. Aside from the testing and looks, Disney's system is a Yugo, and ours is closer to a Cadillac.  Automation? We win that one by a mile.  Advanced signaling? Remember that Disney wreck last year? Yeah, we win that one too. Stations? Our's have a true transit comfortable ambiance, while Disney's are more like a cattle chute.  Manual control? Disney's require manual control of every train, Jax. has the option of automated or manual operation. The manual controls are located in the locked panel in the front of each car.  (...and yes Captain, "CAR" is the proper term in North and Central America, beyond that it's "WAGON" just like any other train). Disney uses "bouncers" to keep the herd off the tracks, Jacksonville has fully automated that. If you break free of the mouse bouncers and dive on the rail, you better pray the Disney operator see's you in time to stop. In Jacksonville the instant you broke the plane of the safety line, an alarm sounds and the power is cut to the rail.

A PHOTO TOUR OF LOS ANGELES RAIL TRANSIT CHOICES:[/b][/i][/color]

*(1) Los Angeles' current fixed rail operations include: APM/DPM, Commuter Rail, Regional Rail, Amtrak Corridor, Light Rail Transit, Heritage Interurban, Funicular (worlds shortest railway=Angels Flight Ry), Subway, BRT.

So like I have preached from day ONE, in Transit MIX IS GOOD! Think, mix, match, connect, seamless, transfer, choice, compliment, enhance... always choose the best mode for the job. What works in Riverside might not work in San Marco. The old slogan in Los Angeles said it all: "Comfort - Speed - Safety," Pacific Electric Railway.

Imagine! If Jacksonville's leadership was running Los Angeles, they would have built the Skyway 1/2 way up the Angels Flight, quit and walked away...  Amtrak? LRT? Etc? Did YOU see the bus? I didn't see the bus! What bus?


OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

I found this link

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/automated-monorails?docID=0901260d8000a7e4

People who say the Skyway is ugly should look at it. I think this is the company that built the monorails cars that Jax uses. Can the track that JTA uses upgrade to these more current cars?? Does anyone know?

[Ocklawaha]

Not only those but the cars and products of a dozen or more builders of off the shelf monorail trains.  Our beamway is a bit wider then most systems, but almost any order can be customized to fit. BTW, there is a model of the new Hitachi Monorail Trains, in the Skyway Offices.


OCKLAWAHA

[Mattius92]

We dont need to be worrying that much on a new monorail vehicle and more on the expansion. We all know new modern looking monorails are cool, but right now we need to worry about getting what we have useful.