Is Downtown Going Down the Tubes?

[jerry cornwell]

actually whats been described are some good points for dtown. there are 3 clubs downtown, clubs come, clubs go, thats how it is. at least we have 3 downtown- more will follow. boomtowns 8 blocks away. look at nyc manhattan, all those clibs are closing, that populations shifting (me!) the citys doin what it does, i think it could be sooo much worse (rudy guiliani (sic)) lets drop the defeatist attitude and develop some action.
the default of kuhn(laura trio) should be looked upon as positive.  im still trying to buy a 2 story in lavilla; i cant do that anywhere but jax--- and only jax will let me live/work.
we are gonna have to do this ourselves
the urbismus movement is great, we need to do subtle things like this, which the city actually agrees with. the recession can be a sign for downtown to come to the artists like nyc 1977 when they almost filed bankruptcy.
when we get to that stage dtown will appeal to the population, and theres a good chance for downtown prosperity.we cant be adversarial with 1st baptist, i think they agree with our long term goal.

[downtownparks]

Well said Jerry. Thanks for bringing some positivity to the discussion. I think we sometimes get a little sullen since we watch progress (or lack there of) so closely.

[thelakelander]

NYC in 1977?   If we go by the same timeline, Downtown Jax should be the place to be when I turn 60.  My kids will be 36 & 32.  So my grandkids will be able to enjoy the environment we're pushing for right now.  Hopefully, at some point in the future, we can revitalize warp speed.

[jerry cornwell]

no, nyc was best right after 77 when ed koch took over.the urban art movement, warhol, street art. the eighties was the best times for nyc, affordable, exciting. after koch was defeaated by dinkins then guiliani in early 90s the decline began for nyc (relatively speaking from my pov) there became an artistic exodus from nyc, to la, seattle ect. places affordable for artists and us of metrojax. when i see this vacant downtown, i just believe it just like then, but maybe better. i do recgnize
your anger, resentment. its just that we have to take a certain action ourselves to make it happen, the kuhn default, the death of the courthouse, the oppertunities are there, getting distressed props at great value--- i just see the mallable jacksonville falling in our hands. but we have to do it!

[jerry cornwell]

the music scene in jax is already underway, it aint southern rock.

[thelakelander]

I hear ya.  I'll try to do my part.

[Coolyfett]

Certain parts of DT Jax are looking ok to me. From Adams going toward the Landing has a few things going on. Also Jefferson going toward Liberty covers the same area. Thats the important perimeter IMO. That could be our party/event district. Still many unpaved lots in this perimeter though. There are MANY abandoned buildings in this section to, buildings that could actually become something but they are not. Just my thoughts.

[I-10east]

the eighties was the best times for nyc

I dunno Jerry. Some will argue that the eighties (particularly late 80's) in NY were the worst with the crack epidemic, low paying Mc jobs, high crime, poverty and all. I left NYC in 86' and it gotten worst through the rest of the eighties.

[jerry cornwell]

thats right, my arguments relative, by the late 80s it went bad in that respect, but artistically the peak was late 70s to mid 80s, when you left. the size of nyc,its internationalism defined those problems--- cities of the late 20th cent being of the very, very rich--- and prisons of the poor.
i feel these elements exclude jax, lump her along seattle(pre) just making it ripe for artistic development, a firm separation of urban suburban. theres an art movement underway visual musical, but its underground, its centered around downtown. ypu have to be in touch (easier with technology in 2008) just like punk (talking heads, blondie, voidiods ok ramones) nyc77ish seattle grunge, lower east village street art basquiat, haring, kostabi, ect. its fermenting, but steps have to be taken, and I-10s right many probably a majority arnt gonna support it, thats where rudy, bloomberg were elected ant took nyc away from historical paris rome, berlin, and towards like hong kong, a certain character of la,(place to make movies) tokyo.

[hank]

For my part, what makes JAX so exciting is this exact question of the incomplete revitalization of downtown and its undecided status - that it has the raw materials of a great city that has not yet re-emerged from a major downturn.  I could have moved to Seattle or San Diego or...  crap, Nocatee for that matter and move into a turnkey neighborhood - but I'd have wagered nothing, invested nothing in helping to make those communities something good.  Now there are only pockets of activity separated by tracts of disuse and I know that its been a long time coming, but those vacant buildings look to me like untapped potential that could, with a few proactive strokes and forward-thinking champions, turn into something like an art district.  How much does an art district really take other than cheap buildings and a not discouraging civic environment?  (OK not getting shot while developing your masterwork would be a plus but you get the idea).  The point is, downtown is relatively uncharted territory that, with a few great old buildings and space for some great new ones, could become anything we'd want it to  - perhaps that is why this site is getting so much attention.  Do you think people in Boston spend this much time griping about every stray plastic bag that blows through downtown!

Jerry brings up how completely relative this idea of "progress" can be - NY 1977 is hell to some people, but was in fact an amazingly fertile ground for art and culture.  JAX has plenty of space for a variety of districts and to have ONLY an art scene or ONLY a yuppie shopping district would be equally ill-conceived.  A healthy urban core should support every spectrum of culture.

I'd also point out that, while were thinking of NY's revitalization/gentrification, there are still a ton of homeless people everywhere you go in that city.  Maybe it is something that will always be with us.  15% of homeless people are mentally ill and a majority of the remainder are substance abusers.  Those are national problems that aren't necessarily unique to JAX.  OK, so Giuliani was basically a big broom that swept these people under the rug - it never went away.  Its unfortunate to see homeless people as a cue to throw in the towel on downtown development.

[thelakelander]

Jerry/Hank, Great points.

[jerry cornwell]

artwalks tonight

[collard]

Maybe someone should consult the Rudy Guiliani years in Manhattan.........the homeless situation is very well contained. NYC is much safer and cleaner than Jax......it's so sad as there is so much history here, yet revival never seems to happen.

[gatorback]

A lot of

Maybe someone should consult the Rudy Guiliani years in Manhattan.........the homeless situation is very well contained. NYC is much safer and cleaner than Jax......it's so sad as there is so much history here, yet revival never seems to happen.

The attitude toward the homeless is completely different in NYC then in Jacksonville.  Rudy had nothing to do with that; however, he did clean up the city I'll give him credit for.  He started by having the police issue tickets for people who discarded cigarette butts....the word got out he's cleaning up the city.  If you got a ticket for throwing out a cigarette imagine what would happen to you if you commit a crime.  It worked.

[second_pancake]

Maybe someone should consult the Rudy Guiliani years in Manhattan.........the homeless situation is very well contained. NYC is much safer and cleaner than Jax......it's so sad as there is so much history here, yet revival never seems to happen.

It's really difficult to "revive" downtown when everyone is "moving to Nocatee".