Cuban embargo: makes no sense

[Ocklawaha]

Ben... your outrage is misplaced.  The proper entities you should be angry with are... Castro, Saddam, Taliban/alqaida et al... Without those folks... there would not have been any "economic terrorism".

Quite the opposite.

The Taliban/Al Qaeda were "blowback" groups created by the United States because of our policies from 1979 onward. These groups/tyrants didn't just "pop up" out of nowhere--they were responses to our policies.

Looks like you've been reading too much one-sided history.

The lack of historical knowledge is frightening almost as bad as the made up knowledge of the revisionist historians.

The Godfather of the mid eastern terrorist community is just 90 miles off the Florida coast.  Including a good deal of evidence that leads a 911 researcher straight back to Cuba. In his tirade during the so called Tri Continental conference" Fidel and Che, promised to destroy all of their imperialist enemy's, to never give them a moments peace or tranquility, bringing death at his work, home and places of recreation. Who is this imperialist enemy they asked? The great enemy of all of mankind, The United States of America!  Who was at the long ago seminar on hate? Yasir Arafat, and Ilich Sanchez, aka: Carlos the Jackal, most wanted terrorist in the world for decades. Sanchez enrolled in Che's school of terror in Havana in 1959, and at the Conference they had a hug fest with dozens of other infamous names. The conference ended in April of 1967. No doubt the discussion included such subjects as their two failed attempts to deliver on their promises, as the FBI uncovered two separate plots, ending one just an hour before execution and the other thanks to Canadian Mounted Police following the poor girl that was being used to transport the explosives. The Black Panthers were recruited to blow up most of the major monuments in Washington DC. The next outrage was a plot to blow up Grand Central Terminal, Bloomingdale's, Macy's and Gimble's department stores in New york City (I think this was the 1962 plot?) it was set to roll on the day after Thanksgiving, for maximum effect with women and children. 500 Kilo's of TNT were moved back out of the city.

In 2002, Al-Hayat the French Arabic newspaper interview the Jackal in prison, he told them "I'm proud of the path Bin Laden chose, he chose a trail that I myself had blazed... In March 2004, 10 locations in the Madrid Metro were blow up, killing or wounding 2,000 innocent people and who took credit for the event? The Spanish Al-Qaeda coalition... The weapon, 100 pounds of TNT, meaning the New York bombings were to be 5 times stronger... Take that 911 plane right back to 1959 if you wish, because the dots are easy to connect if you have just a modicum of historical sensitivity. Who would have thunk Che, Fidel, Bin Laden, Arafat and the Jackal all from the same kindergarten. The freedoms they have brought Cuba is something to behold, as long as your not one of the 77,000 blacks, homosexuals and hippies rounded up by the secret police and executed.

Yes, cut the embargo, because perhaps we can slip someone in there that will take out these criminals. We hunted down various gangsters, Nazi's and Fascist's, and presented them with death penalties, but we have grown into such a watered down "correct" society that we don't want to read the historical facts, so we just rewrite them! We want to buy sugar and socks from these hyena's.

America (or Colombia for me) aren't perfect, but as democratic, representative republics they are a damn sight better then the alternative.


OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

Thanks, Ock.  If it wasn't for the better (slightly) sentence structure, it was beginning to look as if Bos had created a sock puppet.

[Cricket]

I read the headline of Ock's piece and saw the author was Abbie Hoffman and I read no further. Plus the bold type was blinding.

Forget all this historical mumbo jumbo. Even forget the moral reasons for closing the embargo. Just think of it in pragmatic terms. The embargo is not serving its intended purpose. Castro has defeated (survived) every US president since JFK. We are losing an export potential for hard goods, however meagre. We could benefit from Cuba's tremendous doctors and medical resources.

I have respect for Ock's "Ferroequinology", as he calls it. On this subject, however, I think he ran off the rails.

[ben says]

Meh.

Middle Eastern Terrorism is basically a kind of pentecostal Muslim fanaticalism.  Cuba doesnt have a damn thing to do with it.

Castro is apparently an asshole, but werent we supposed to be against Castro because he was allied with the soviets?

They are gone, and now the Maximum Leader is about to finally drop dead in the most cunning Assassination Plot ever hatched by our clownish CIA:  The Plot to Kill Fidel Castro with extreme, morbid old age.

Im with Ben on this one.  And I think we would have done a lot better to leave international policy to the State Department instead of discovering the joys of unintended blowback that came out of skullduggery in the Century of Communication.

Perhaps this kind of stuff went over well before the advance of electronic surveillance and telephones, but this inept cloak and dagger dastardliness has come back to bite our government repeatedly.

We armed and trained Mr. Tim Osment (Usama Bin Laden's CIA code name during the Afghan Soviet Conflict, and we armed and trained Mr. Saddaam Hussein back when we were enemies with Iran.

That worked out well didnt it?

End the silly embargo, and this time I bet the international business of Cuba becomes Medicine, instead of the traditional gambling, prositution and slavery.

Not to patronize anyone in particular, but as a serious recommendation, I'd check out these three books by a former State Department member, Chalmers Johnson.

The Blowback Trilogy:

http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Consequences-American-Project/dp/0805075593/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231876&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Sorrows-Empire-Militarism-Republic-American/dp/0805077979/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231876&sr=8-3

http://www.amazon.com/Nemesis-American-Republic-Empire-Project/dp/0805087281/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231876&sr=8-1

AND, I can't help but throwing this in there...the history of the United States + it's foreign policy from the eyes of the people, i.e. not the elite:

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-United-States-Present/dp/0060838655/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267231942&sr=1-1

1492-Present (and yes, it covers Cuba...I think from 1800 onwards)

[Ocklawaha]

I read the headline of Ock's piece and saw the author was Abbie Hoffman and I read no further. Plus the bold type was blinding.

Forget all this historical mumbo jumbo. Even forget the moral reasons for closing the embargo. Just think of it in pragmatic terms. The embargo is not serving its intended purpose. Castro has defeated (survived) every US president since JFK. We are losing an export potential for hard goods, however meagre. We could benefit from Cuba's tremendous doctors and medical resources.

I have respect for Ock's "Ferroequinology", as he calls it. On this subject, however, I think he ran off the rails.

Sorry Cricket, but the bold print and purple name are unregistered trademarks of my Thermian Kingdom (just beyond the Klatu Nebula). Well that and the fact I'm half blind --- on a good day!

What part of the Castro story do you not agree with? Abbie only wrote the part about the Penis! All of the rest is simply recording of things as they happened... While I wasn't in Havana, I was in Jax at that time, and have lived most of my last 10 years or so in the Latin Speaking world, so Ben is right, they do have a different view of things then we do. Our flirtation with Castro, and thugs like him, Tatoo's of Che, Books, Movies, Hero Worship, is misguided at best, and a death wish at worst.


OCKLAWAHA

[urbanlibertarian]

Any reason we shouldn't trade with them or travel there?

[Cricket]

Ock, I meant no disrespect by not giving alot of weight to your historical perspectives.

All I am saying is that we sometimes forget that history is written by historians who are people like you and me with prejudices, political leanings and blind affinities to one country or another.

Che and Fidel are as much beloved in Cuba and in much of Latin America as Reagan and JFK are idolized here in the US.

The people we call thugs are heroes to them and our heroes are thugs to them.

For every one evil deed that we accuse them of committing, they can point out at least in their own minds a corresponding evil act that we committed somewhere in that long history between our two countries. 

So we get bogged down with historical tit for tat and nothing changes. That is the reason I say forget about all the mumbo jumbo about history. Let's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

[samiam]

I do think its time to normalize relationships with Cuba. We live in a different world than we did in the 60's. Russia is no longer a threat to north America via Cuba. The real reason the sanction where put in place to begin with.

[Bostech]

Ben you are talking to bunch of brainwashed "patriots" who don't see ANYTHING wrong with US does around world.
They are not that different from Nazis or Serbs,while their" government is killing other people and wage wars they simply stand at side,watch and cheer and even think they are right.

You tell them about million people killed in Iraq and they say "Oh well" or try to come up with good excuse why that doesnt matter.
Just like Serbs under Milosevic who always blame everyone else and dont see anything wrong with them.even that they fought war with 5 different nations/entities in one decade they still dont see anything wrong.
They also call that "patriotism" just like righ-wing Americans here.
When Serbs get attacked,even if it is something small, they cry and whine but when they attack others and kill without mercy then "its ok and they deserved it".
Primitive human mentality of defending your "own kind" no matter what,wrong or right.
Unless you change their mentality not much will change,they wil keep coming up with new excuse for every new war and conflict.

[Ocklawaha]

Ock, I meant no disrespect by not giving alot of weight to your historical perspectives.

All I am saying is that we sometimes forget that history is written by historians who are people like you and me with prejudices, political leanings and blind affinities to one country or another.

Che and Fidel are as much beloved in Cuba and in much of Latin America as Reagan and JFK are idolized here in the US.

The people we call thugs are heroes to them and our heroes are thugs to them.

For every one evil deed that we accuse them of committing, they can point out at least in their own minds a corresponding evil act that we committed somewhere in that long history between our two countries.  

So we get bogged down with historical tit for tat and nothing changes. That is the reason I say forget about all the mumbo jumbo about history. Let's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

Believe me, I think the embargo has long outlived it's purpose, and think if it were lifted, perhaps exposure to a tiny glimpse of free enterprise, would bring the house down on the dark ages in Cuba.

Our belief that Che and Castro are worshiped in Latin America is largely false. American's like to make movies then believe that as fact... it's not. Living in Colombia, Brasil, Suriname, Panama and Mexico, gives one a whole different prospective. You might know for example that Bolivia is a very left of center, socialist country, the type our media would have us believe make hero's of Che's mug. Did you know it was the Bolivian Army (without ANY help from us) that put the boy on ice?  I had dinner in the Andes with one of the captains of the M-19 movement. I won't go into how I know them, but I do, in fact they have a presence in Springfield - Jacksonville - USA today as well, now called the F.A.R.C.. (Forces Armed Revolutionary Colombia).  The Latin people know the atrocities these people commit against a completely innocent (often ignorant of ANY political thought) body of civilians, for monetary gain in the name of revolution. My dinner was revealing, they know well how we buy into the hype, and frankly think we are the dumbest population on earth. As far as Marxism or Socialism? It's a scam in Latin America. From Fidel to Terra Del Fuego, it's about money and power for a select few. Che was a "good Communist" but he seized the largest house in Cuba... furnished... with yacht basin. When his military leadership turned out to be a sham too, (I don't care who told you otherwise, find me ONE example where he was present in leadership during the heat of victorious battle... there isn't one) after getting his men divided into two groups in the Andes, through some navigation error, he slipped out of camp and surrendered to the authorities after telling his men to fight to the last drop of blood! He begged for his life, telling the Bolivian military that he was worth far more to them alive then he was dead. When he realized he was a short timer, he ran to an injured Bolivian soldier and started to "mend him". He was asked if he was a doctor, and he told them no but he had vast battlefield medical experience... With that someone helped him along the trail with a rifle butt. The next morning he was dispatched over the River Styx.

Your right though about "them" being able to point-counter point any historical fact we toss out. Like royalty of a long lost medieval world, they have no scruples about ruling over the peasants. Che himself told the UN, "They say we murder... (long pause) Certainly we execute, we kill them, "Muerrrrrrrrrrte" (rolling the "R's" to emphasize the effect [translation DEAAAAAD!]) 77,000 enemy's of the state!" He got a standing ovation for that little performance and no one in our media at the time had balls enough to ask the great humanitarian why children had to be executed in front of their parents? Why children without parents were left to starve? Why did he put out an order to arrest ALL hippies and all homosexuals? anyone that listened to rock music was reeducated.

Che never had to hide how he really felt about us in this country. He publically stated that you and I and every other American Citizen, were "hyena's, worthy only of execution."  He could say that sort of insanely threatening thing because he could trust our Famous Elite, news media, and Hollywood, to spin it exactly the way he would want it, for the most part they all sleep together.

Think Cuba has changed? Think you REALLY saw the country the way it really is? think they have it going? Don't trust me for this Cricket, stephendare, don, etc... ask CHE'S grandson Caneck Sanchez Guevara, a heavy metal rocker, who was yanked out of a theater line, for a painful ripping open inspection of his rectum on a Havana Sidewalk by the secret police his grandfather had created. Caneck survived, and refused to surrender his music to such animals, he escaped to Miami!

See what a Latin education has done for me? Do you feel my inner Colombian? Hear my inner Brasilian?  Sure DROP the embargo, and offer $1 Million dollars to the person that dispatches the island beasts.

Oh and Ben, you'll find that Comrade Bostech hates everything American, all American's, American life, American styles, American aid, EVERYTHING except American Dollars.  He also will not quote a single source if asked, or answer a single question, but he is very good at calling us names... equally!

OCKLAWAHA
Just ask, I'll tell y'all how I REALLY feel!

[samiam]

I do know for a fact that the people of Cuba are repressed by there government. I have been to Cuba 7 times, twice to repatriate Cubans found at sea. One thing that sticks in my mind is they were forced to wash there feet prior to stepping on Cuban soil to remove the American soil from them. But its fine for Americans to visit there state built resort area and walk around in there duty American shoes

[BridgeTroll]

Let's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

I dont disagree... And thank you for calling it what it is... An embargo...

[Sigma]

Let's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

I dont disagree... And thank you for calling it what it is... An embargo...

x2

Why did he put out an order to arrest ALL hippies and all homosexuals? anyone that listened to rock music was reeducated.

Che never had to hide how he really felt about us in this country. He publically stated that you and I and every other American Citizen, were "hyena's, worthy only of execution."  He could say that sort of insanely threatening thing because he could trust our Famous Elite, news media, and Hollywood, to spin it exactly the way he would want it, for the most part they all sleep together.

Ock thanks for saying it like it is, I always like the way you describe the history.   I always have to shake my head and laugh every time I see someone like Carlos Santana or other musician (artist) wearing their famous Che t-shirt.

[ben says]

Ben you are talking to bunch of brainwashed "patriots" who don't see ANYTHING wrong with US does around world.
They are not that different from Nazis or Serbs,while their" government is killing other people and wage wars they simply stand at side,watch and cheer and even think they are right.

You tell them about million people killed in Iraq and they say "Oh well" or try to come up with good excuse why that doesnt matter.
Just like Serbs under Milosevic who always blame everyone else and dont see anything wrong with them.even that they fought war with 5 different nations/entities in one decade they still dont see anything wrong.
They also call that "patriotism" just like righ-wing Americans here.
When Serbs get attacked,even if it is something small, they cry and whine but when they attack others and kill without mercy then "its ok and they deserved it".
Primitive human mentality of defending your "own kind" no matter what,wrong or right.
Unless you change their mentality not much will change,they wil keep coming up with new excuse for every new war and conflict.

Couldn't agree more. There's two sides to every coin, and American's conveniently forget that they aren't the only people on this planet.

Americans have been taught that their nation is civilized and humane. But, too often, U.S. actions have been uncivilized and inhumane.

“(Nationalism is) a set of beliefs taught to each generation in which the Motherland or the Fatherland is an object of veneration and becomes a burning cause for which one becomes willing to kill the children of other Motherlands or Fatherlands” - Howard Zinn

I'm not "anti American" by the way...just not a blind follower to whatever I hear on the news. Remember the famous quote...dissent is the highest form of patriotism...

[ben says]

Ock, I meant no disrespect by not giving alot of weight to your historical perspectives.

All I am saying is that we sometimes forget that history is written by historians who are people like you and me with prejudices, political leanings and blind affinities to one country or another.

Che and Fidel are as much beloved in Cuba and in much of Latin America as Reagan and JFK are idolized here in the US.

The people we call thugs are heroes to them and our heroes are thugs to them.

For every one evil deed that we accuse them of committing, they can point out at least in their own minds a corresponding evil act that we committed somewhere in that long history between our two countries. 

So we get bogged down with historical tit for tat and nothing changes. That is the reason I say forget about all the mumbo jumbo about history. Let's move on. Scrap this dumb !@#$%^&* embargo.

Also very true!