Incremental Upgrades to Existing Amtrak Passenger Rail Service

[FayeforCure]

The $8 billion High Speed Rail Stimulus of which $1.25 billion went to Florida, also included $2 billion for incremental upgrades to existing Amtrak passenger rail service:

The bulk of the stimulus cash went to a trio of major projects: a high-speed rail line linking Tampa and Orlando, Fla.; a high-speed line linking Southern and Northern California; and incremental upgrades to three existing lines radiating out from Chicago to St. Louis, Milwaukee and Detroit.

The administration also sprinkled more than $2 billion around to more than 20 other states for incremental upgrades to existing Amtrak passenger rail service or for very preliminary work on future high-speed rail lines that could take years to construct.

While a number of smaller projects got only relatively tiny pieces of the funding pie, the administration has suggested that more could be on the way.

Obama has called the stimulus grants a "first step" in a robust plan similar to President Eisenhower's launching the Interstate Highway System in the 1950s, and has admitted billions of dollars more will be needed to complete the passenger rail network.

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2010/02/12/12greenwire-high-speed-rail-cash-lays-congressional-track-11511.html

[JeffreyS]

Encouraging.

[Ocklawaha]

Here is my warning. This is a photo of the ENTIRE DIXIE FLYER, taken in it's last year of operation. Sure it had express cars, even piggyback cars, but the fastest train from Chicago to Miami, was down to a lone Chicago and Eastern Illinois RR coach, a tiny piece of what was once a proud pool. Piece by piece, the trains came off and the national network ceased to function. Had Faye, or Mica, or Obama, been attuned to rail service, they might have seen it coming, and likely they could predict the costs of spending Billions on train sets, and leaving the ends untied. One more glance at that photo please, on her last day in service, in 1966, the Dixie Flyer boarded 1 passenger. If we don't wise up, what goes around comes around.

So all these dollars from Washington?

In other words, The City Of New Orleans will get an extra sleeper for the Chicago-New Orleans trade, The two surviving Florida trains will get free OJ again, and the Texas Eagle, MIGHT, MIGHT, go daily. Whoopie freaking do!
These idiots are spending a kings ransom on a fools errand. Until we have fast, frequent, networked, passenger trains, all across the land, I will not support these dream chasers.

I've said it before and will continue to say it, not Faye, not Mica, not anyone else is going to make this succeed until we have NETWORK!  The NEC is wrong, the Orlando-Tampa HSR is wrong, somebody come to their senses.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock........don't hold your breath for it to happen! Rat Rail is coming and as you say WTF! Dollars down the tubes again and we will have nothing to show for it.........but hay....we will have HSR in Florida right?

[tufsu1]

Rat Rail is coming and as you say WTF! Dollars down the tubes again and we will have nothing to show for it.

let's play this out...say we built "higher speed rail" from Jacksonville to Miami (which I am in favor of).....wouldn't the 5 million folks in the Orlando and Tampa Bay areas have the same "I paid taxes and got nothing" argument?

[Ocklawaha]

Sure TUFSU, it would be the same, but we (or at least I'm) not talking about an US or THEM scenerio. Certainly a Orlando - Tampa line should be part of High Speed Rail, as well as Jacksonville - Miami, and Tampa - Miami. 3 Routes, not one circuitous Disney train.

As Orlando isn't much bigger then Jacksonville, the need for a direct Orlando - Miami link pales in comparison to Tampa - Miami.  The Tampa - Miami segment should slice directly across the state, and not get tied up with Fort Myers, Naples, Venice and such. Moore Haven makes more sense then does Ft. Myers, and again, Ft. Myers, should be linked to the network with conventional trains.

Logically the cross state line should run from Daytona Beach - Orlando - Tampa - St Petersburg.

The north / south line should run from Miami to Jacksonville, not because I'm from Jacksonville, but because we are the tap root to the rest of the national system. 

It should go THROUGH not around the towns it serves, to prevent sprawl development. It should not curve off to serve any Airports, or Sea Terminals that can't be picked up along the regular direct route. The Airports and Sea Terminals can be tied in with mass transit.

So what is this? It's a hell of a lot more then Florida has planned, and frankly, will cost a hell of a lot more, however, it would send trains from city center to city center throughout the peninsular.

When (someday) the Gulf Coast and South East Atlanta and New York routes meet in Jacksonville, you could see how this would become key. It is however the opposite of the "Orlando Hub Plan" which is going to give us an expensive bus.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

I agree with Ock plus - OIA to Tampa is not much of anything other than " A stand alone system" that bypasses the very things it should be going through! This system is designed the wrong way...............you don't start in the middle of anything and then go to the end...........I mean what or whom designed this in this manner? You either start at the beginning or start at the end but not the middle! Sure........eventually this is supposed to go to Miami, once again wrong direction, but sooner or later it has to head north to hook into the rest, what little there is, of the national railsystem................what we don't have one? HSR will take care of that right? Hell we can't even run 90 mph on standard stuff no matter where except for short sections! Ratville has a people moving system in place..........what about their jobs? Or is the HSR system going to be manned by them, if that is the case then the original name fits........Rat Rail!

[tufsu1]

CS...your regular statements don't seem to agree with Ock...they seem to imply that if Jax. doesn't get something (and it better be something you like), then your tax dollars are being wasted.

And as far as starting at an endpoint vs. the middle....are you saying that Tampa isn't an endpoint?

[Dog Walker]

Hopefully just having ANY rail development in Florida, high speed or not, will be a demonstration of what can be done and will generate public support for more rail development. (Optimist hat)

Or, it can be like the Skyway and be such a complete failure that it will sour public opinion for that sort of development for generations. (Pessimist hat)

[Ocklawaha]

Or, it can be like the Skyway and be such a complete failure that it will sour public opinion for that sort of development for generations. (Pessimist hat)

I'll just keep making noise, as I can't understand why we would even want to take that risk? The Skyway was also designed in little phases and started in the middle, and when things bellied up, they refused to build the remaining lines into the urban neighborhoods.

As rail supporters and supporters of High Speed Rail, we should push for common sense sustainable full system solutions, rather then an 86 MPH shortline.


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

tufsu.............you can not start in the middle of anything and hope to have a viable cost effective anything! Tampa is an end point based upon HSR starting in OIA.........is  this not what the initial proposal stated? The basic premise behind my stating Jacksonville needs to be the start is simple..............what routes are outbound from Jacksonville? Can we go north or west or south from Jacksonville? So a 86 mph system in the middle of nowhere to nowhere does not mean a "shining example of HSR capability's"! Especially since you can not go south or west or north to speak of from Tampa! You have to cross over to the east coast before you can go north or south so WTF? Miami leg from Tampa is still not set in stone, still not funded and what do we end up with......Rat Rail! So this is just what I am referring to! Nowhere to nowhere means Rat Rail.....period!

[tufsu1]

CS...let me try to explain the history one final time.

Florida's plans for high speed rail were first developed in the 1970s...way before there was serious talk of a natioal high speed system....the state's plans were refined through the 1990s.

In 2000, the voters autorized constrution of a system connecting the 5 largest metro areas of the state (determined then to be Tampa Bay, Orlando, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami) to start within 4 years....in order to comply with the "will of the people", environmental studies for the first leg (Tampa to Orlando) were completed in 2003, such that construction (using a design/build cokntract) could start the next year.

In 2004, Gov. Bush and the Legislature put a referndum on the ballot to kill the high speed rail plan and spread any remaining funds out to the regions for more local rail service....voters approved 3-to-1....So, money that had been set aside for high speed rail instead went to planning, design, land acquisition, and limited construction of intermodal centers in Miami, Orlando, Tampa Bay...and Jacksonville!

But the 180 degree shift in Washington in 2009 brought Florida's high speed rail plan back up...the reason the Feds chose to provide significant funding to the Tampa-Orlando route is that it is the only rail line in the nation that could safely exceed 150mph and is "shovel ready".

BTW....note that Florida was ready when others weren't to take advantage of the new funding...some might even say we had a vision and a plan!

[Ocklawaha]

I find that railroading and warfare are perhaps more similar then any other civilian - military combination. With railroads, we plan carefully, draw up our lines, pour in the resources and the man power and on occasion miscalculate so badly as to run from the battlefield in a full rout.

In 1945, The joint commend of the allied forces photographed, over flew, checked and rechecked every inch of the lower home island of Kyushu Japan. We really busted our internaitonal asses, to get this right, and the following is a sumation of the enemy situation (strength) that would be facing us.

"That approximately three (3) hostile divisions will be disposed in Southern KYUSHU and an additional three (3) in Northern KYUSHU at initiation of the OLYMPIC operation."

"That total hostile forces committed against KYUSHU operations will not exceed eight "8", to ten "10" divisions, and that this level will be speedily attained."

"That the enemy may withdraw his land-based air forces to the Asiatic Mainland for protection from our neutralizing attacks. That under such circumstances he can possibly amass from 2,000 to 2,500 planes in that area by exercise of rigid economy, and that this force can operate against KYUSHU landings by staging through homeland fields."

Well folks, to make for a happy ending, Japan knew they were beat, and considered the complete extinction of the Japanese race as an alternative. When the old enemy Russia, declared war, and the USA mentioned that the Japanese people could select their future government, they decided to surrender.

But had it gone differently? What if we would have followed through on this brilliant international military plan?

Japan had predicted exactly where we would land our troops, and they planned to be waiting. No 8 - 10 quickly assembled divisions awaited us, they in fact had SIXTY FIVE (65) DIVISIONS!  No cobbling together 2,000 aircraft to provide air support for their troops either, they had in fact held back and squirreled away 15,000 aircraft, many of which were jet's, something we didn't even have combat ready. They also had guided missles (which we didn't even know about) and over 1,500 special attack submarines. The other numbers are equally staggering, and they point out what might well have been an Allied "Waterloo In The Pacific," and I'd be writing in Japanese.

I see a very close parallel to this historic military tale, and what Florida is doing on our High Speed Rail Project. We have lived in a comfort zone of asphalt for so long in Florida that we somehow approach rail from a "Superior Position." Cutr, FDOT, JTA and countless other agencys have rubber stamped every highway toy known to man, and frankly, most of our planners see HSR as a panacea that just can't fail...

Well hang on to your helmet's Floridian's because I am seeing the broad beaches of Kyushu on our horizon. We better watch our step on this giddy sleigh ride because I have it on good information that psst. "Japan build's HSR trains too!"


OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Gee thanks tufsu...........no offense big boy but you have allready pointed out these facts before when we have had this discussion! Thanks but it does not change much of anything ....other than prove beyond doubt "Jeb" was an idiot with no vision or plan! What is done is done..............however when it falls through the cracks, I am going to say I told you so!