Why Jacksonville Should Immediately Invest In Rail

[thelakelander]

Locally, the CSX bypass will reroute port traffic north of town instead of through it.  This should free up some rail capacity in the Northside, Jax's most transit dependent area and area most in need of economic redevelopment.  If we're smart, we'll take advantage of this port related project to jump start passenger rail service in some of the areas where existing rail traffic will relocate from.  Combine that with the city owned S-Line ROW and you could easily have a rail corridor running from downtown to Dunn Avenue/9A or even RCM.

[urbanlibertarian]

Pro rail folks tend to cite the benefits of rail as if it will be operating at full capacity as designed.  The "anti rail zealots" compare the costs, subsidies and pollution of automobile and air travel to rail in terms of X per passenger mile which seems more appropriate to me.  Cars are more flexible and convenient.  The vehicles are provided, maintained and fueled by the passengers for the most part which minimizes the government subsidies.

However, your points, Lake, about economic development are hard to argue with. 

[thelakelander]

The "anti rail zealots" compare the costs, subsidies and pollution of automobile and air travel to rail in terms of X per passenger mile which seems more appropriate to me.  Cars are more flexible and convenient.  The vehicles are provided, maintained and fueled by the passengers for the most part which minimizes the government subsidies.

Except the anti-rail zealots leave out several significant facts.  If you develop something that causes low density sprawl to grow, you ought to add the cost of its impact to the total.  Who pays for the fire stations, police stations, sewage plants, utility extensions, environmental impacts, etc. that always result from the continued development of new roads in virgin land?  Who pays for decline in the older areas abandoned because more public money flows to subsidize the outward growth?  This thing isn't as cut and draw or black and white as zealots believe.  For every cause, there is an effect, especially when talking about public infrastructure investments.  Point blank, when all the costs are added up, roads cost us more than rail.  Its not even close.

However, your points, Lake, about economic development are hard to argue with.  

They both spur development.  However, one tends to stimulate automobile oriented sprawl and the other encourages better utilization of land development patterns (because its pedestrian scale), which saves taxpayers a ton of money over the long run.

[9a is my backyard]

Well, how do we get the City Council to support this effort?

Easy.  We have to successfully make the economic development argument.  We also have to make this a key issue in the upcoming race for mayor.

Is it really going to be easy? While I would love to see downtown development (with streetcar or other fixed transit as a component) as a major part of the mayor's race, I fear the 'jobs jobs jobs' need will take it off the table. I think most on MJ would agree downtown development would create needed 'jobs jobs jobs' but I'm not sure this arguement can sustain the appeal to abandon it for something more short-term.  Outside of talking to candidates and neighbors, is there anything else we can do?  Has this issue been taken up with the TPO? Or perhaps more accurately, does the TPO have any role in the process? I meant to go to their meeting this evening but I couldn't make it.

[tufsu1]

The "powers that be" follow the site as well.  So we have to drill these points home from time to time. 

well one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!

[JeffreyS]

^So I guess you agree the education of the powers that be must continue.

[tufsu1]

Is it really going to be easy? While I would love to see downtown development (with streetcar or other fixed transit as a component) as a major part of the mayor's race, I fear the 'jobs jobs jobs' need will take it off the table. I think most on MJ would agree downtown development would create needed 'jobs jobs jobs' but I'm not sure this arguement can sustain the appeal to abandon it for something more short-term.  Outside of talking to candidates and neighbors, is there anything else we can do?  Has this issue been taken up with the TPO? Or perhaps more accurately, does the TPO have any role in the process? I meant to go to their meeting this evening but I couldn't make it.

The TPO recently adopted their 2035 Long Range Transportation Plan....the plan includes commuter rail, BRT, and streetcar.

The next step is to get some more detailed feasibility and environmental studies underway for streetcar and commuter rail (already underway for BRT)....even so, it will be at least 5 years before we see any rail here.

[thelakelander]

tufsu1, four years ago with Bush in Washington, HSR was not on the horizon.  Just last week, $8 billion in federal funds was announced to help get a series of HSR projects off the ground.  If Washington can change overnight, so can Jacksonville with a mayoral race on the horizon.  My advice to you is to just do your job by continuing to hit them over the head with why they are wrong.  You'll find that if you don't get discouraged and continue the discussion, ignorance can be ripped to shreads.

[thelakelander]

Well, how do we get the City Council to support this effort?

Easy.  We have to successfully make the economic development argument.  We also have to make this a key issue in the upcoming race for mayor.

Is it really going to be easy? While I would love to see downtown development (with streetcar or other fixed transit as a component) as a major part of the mayor's race, I fear the 'jobs jobs jobs' need will take it off the table.

It can be easy or difficult, depending on what type of argument is presented.  History has proven that investing in urban connectivity and streetcars spur economic development and jobs, jobs, jobs.  Why separate the two?

I think most on MJ would agree downtown development would create needed 'jobs jobs jobs' but I'm not sure this arguement can sustain the appeal to abandon it for something more short-term.

We have to get out of this downtown centric type of thinking.  The discussion should be about a better city as a whole and taking advantage of the power of mass transit to spur sustainable economic development, increase tax rolls and saving taxpayers money in the long run.  If we can do these things, not only will downtown improve but so will many of our neighborhoods. Our current pattern of development is unsustainable and way more expensive to maintain than the presented alternative.  This is the area where an argument centered around vision must be won.

Outside of talking to candidates and neighbors, is there anything else we can do?  Has this issue been taken up with the TPO? Or perhaps more accurately, does the TPO have any role in the process? I meant to go to their meeting this evening but I couldn't make it.

Education, education, education.  Jacksonville is a city that's ten years behind most of its American peers.  We must educate not only our politicians, but also our neighbors and everyone else who can actually vote.  Nothing happens overnight but you have to start the movement somewhere.  Imo, the movement has already been started, we just have to keep pushing.

[thelakelander]

The "powers that be" follow the site as well.  So we have to drill these points home from time to time. 

well one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!

Btw, if you need someone to flip this argument on the "powers that be", take me to your next meeting.  Like the verse in "SpottieOttieDopaliscious", the dialogue will be sweeter than a plate of yams with extra syrup.

[tufsu1]

The "powers that be" follow the site as well.  So we have to drill these points home from time to time. 

well one of those "powers that be" told me the other day that the light rail discussion in Jax. is overblown....that maybe there would be a need in 20 years...and that we shouldn't put anymore $ into the skyway!

Btw, if you need someone to flip this argument on the "powers that be", take me to your next meeting.  Like the verse in "SpottieOttieDopaliscious", the dialogue will be sweeter than a plate of yams with extra syrup.

you're starting to sound like some other frequesnt posters 

[9a is my backyard]

It can be easy or difficult, depending on what type of argument is presented.  History has proven that investing in urban connectivity and streetcars spur economic development and jobs, jobs, jobs.  Why separate the two?

That's the arguement I was trying (but failed) to make. I fear the doom and gloomers of downtown will point to the myriad of things they always do (falling commericial real estate & residential occupancy, failed investments, etc) to either derail any downtown/infill plans or try and get funding diverted to other projects. I agree wholeheartedly the streetcars spurt economic growth, but I don't know that everyone, particularly voters, buys that arguement yet.

We have to get out of this downtown centric type of thinking.  The discussion should be about a better city as a whole and taking advantage of the power of mass transit to spur sustainable economic development, increase tax rolls and saving taxpayers money in the long run.  If we can do these things, not only will downtown improve but so will many of our neighborhoods. Our current pattern of development is unsustainable and way more expensive to maintain than the presented alternative.  This is the area where an argument centered around vision must be won.

Very well put and very true. But to me this poses by far the largest challenge. Jax is such a big town and people are, understandably, concerned about their community. How do you get so many relatively isolated communities to buy into a larger vision? Yes, connectivity will benefit the city but not every neighborhood can be connected, certainly not right away. Too often money for a project to benefit a certain part of the city is portrayed as money that didn't go or could have gone somewhere else. All these plans require investment, which doesn't seem to be the easiest sell in the city. 

Education, education, education.  Jacksonville is a city that's ten years behind most of its American peers.  We must educate not only our politicians, but also our neighbors and everyone else who can actually vote.  Nothing happens overnight but you have to start the movement somewhere.  Imo, the movement has already been started, we just have to keep pushing.

I would agree with you here again. The tone of city hall and other officials has dramatically changed in the past 1.5-2 years (IMO at least). I'm hopefully pessimistic, if such a thing exists.  You're certainly much more involved with this than I am so your optimism gives me more hope. Does MJ have a listing of local public meetings where we could go to possibly move the discussion along?  He downtown vision meeting last week was a start but I would like to attend as many as possible to at least do my part. 

[JeffreyS]

We need new "powers". 

Streetcar now.

I know many of you here may not agree but put a Mayor and afew more on the council that will support it and the JTA wil deliver.

[thelakelander]

It can be easy or difficult, depending on what type of argument is presented.  History has proven that investing in urban connectivity and streetcars spur economic development and jobs, jobs, jobs.  Why separate the two?

That's the argument I was trying (but failed) to make. I fear the doom and gloomers of downtown will point to the myriad of things they always do (falling commercial real estate & residential occupancy, failed investments, etc) to either derail any downtown/infill plans or try and get funding diverted to other projects. I agree wholeheartedly the streetcars spurt economic growth, but I don't know that everyone, particularly voters, buys that argument yet.

We have to find away to sell it.  We know the same old thing we've been doing for the last few decades does not work.  For those that travel, they also know what does work and what we lack.  We'll have to continue to preach about the topic, while also finding and promoting the mayoral candidate that agrees with the issues.

We have to get out of this downtown centric type of thinking.  The discussion should be about a better city as a whole and taking advantage of the power of mass transit to spur sustainable economic development, increase tax rolls and saving taxpayers money in the long run.  If we can do these things, not only will downtown improve but so will many of our neighborhoods. Our current pattern of development is unsustainable and way more expensive to maintain than the presented alternative.  This is the area where an argument centered around vision must be won.

Very well put and very true. But to me this poses by far the largest challenge. Jax is such a big town and people are, understandably, concerned about their community. How do you get so many relatively isolated communities to buy into a larger vision? Yes, connectivity will benefit the city but not every neighborhood can be connected, certainly not right away. Too often money for a project to benefit a certain part of the city is portrayed as money that didn't go or could have gone somewhere else. All these plans require investment, which doesn't seem to be the easiest sell in the city.

Its funny how no one will question dropping $40 million on a single isolated Southside overpass but mention giving $40 million for a rail project that could connect multiple neighborhoods and all hell breaks loose.  Same goes for the struggling skyway.  People cry about it losing $4 million/year but there have been no complaints about spending $26 million to paint the Hart Bridge.  I think with any strong argument, facts like the things mentioned above, also have to become a part of the discussion.  When you can toss numbers around, it really puts things in perspective.

Anyway, similar to the BJP, I think the rail issue may need to be packaged with other visionary ideas and not become a stand alone issue.  Sort of like Denver's T-REX project.  To get a major LRT line constructed, it had to be packaged with a major highway expansion project.

I would agree with you here again. The tone of city hall and other officials has dramatically changed in the past 1.5-2 years (IMO at least). I'm hopefully pessimistic, if such a thing exists.  You're certainly much more involved with this than I am so your optimism gives me more hope.

I'm optimistic because I never thought we would get to where we are today, when we started MJ a few years back.  Its been an amazing ride so far.  We also have an administration in DC that agrees that we need to upgrade our mass transit options and a world that is pulling us in that particular direction.  I believe, either Jacksonville will come around or be pulled along, kicking and screaming.

Does MJ have a listing of local public meetings where we could go to possibly move the discussion along?  He downtown vision meeting last week was a start but I would like to attend as many as possible to at least do my part.

Not at this time. We'll have to do a better job of keeping people informed when public meetings and workshops come up so more can get involved.

[mtraininjax]

Its funny how no one will question dropping $40 million on a single isolated Southside overpass but mention giving $40 million for a rail project that could connect multiple neighborhoods and all hell breaks loose.  Same goes for the struggling skyway.  People cry about it losing $4 million/year but there have been no complaints about spending $26 million to paint the Hart Bridge.  I think with any strong argument, facts like the things mentioned above, also have to become a part of the discussion.  When you can toss numbers around, it really puts things in perspective.

Maybe you should run for city council and get people to care about rail as an issue. Its obvious that the 19 members do not care enough about it to get citizens to care about it. How many more posts about commuter rail are needed for someone on MJ to put up or shut up?

If there was more of a need for CR, I'd be on the bandwagon, but roads are plentiful and traffic is way down from a few years ago in Jax.