Attorney sues JTA over public records request

[stjr]

Total system could be built for slightly more than $100 million.

The Florida Department of Transportation added extra right-hand turn lanes from I-295 onto Blanding a few years ago. That made it a little bit better, but not enough, Corrigan said.

The councilman hopes two projects on Collins Road will get traffic off of Blanding. The city is now widening Collins from two to four lanes from Rampart Road to Blanding for $25.2 million, and the project includes an overpass over I-295.

That project will conclude late next year.

Also in 2010, the Florida Department of Transportation plans to begin construction on a new interchange at Collins Road that will connect to I-295. The $136 million project is scheduled to begin in June and will connect to the overpass now being built by the city, sometime in late 2014.

James Bennett,  an FDOT development engineer, said the Collins Road improvements should help.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-19/story/blanding_boulevard_at_interstate_295_voted_worst_jacksonville_intersecti

$100 million for a Downtown street car system or $161 million spent by our cash strapped state to MAYBE "help" a single intersection in Orange Park?

And, our very own JACKSONVILLE Transportation Authority promotes the Outer Beltway and 9B to further remove people from the urban core with the support of the very same "leaders" who champion Downtown and wonder aloud why it doesn't thrive.

What a silly value system we have for transportation prioritization!  No wonder urban sprawl thrives while Downtown wanders aimlessly below the radar screen.  This madness needs to stop.  

[JeffreyS]

stjr what a great post but depressing .  Where is our BJP money.  We need a MetroJacksonville.com public records request.

Streetcar Now!

[tufsu1]

stjr...I personally would agree that funding transit is a much more sustainable long-term solution.

but honestly over 200,000 cars a day pass through the I-295/Blanding/Collins area...which probably translates to about 225,000 people....I would be thrilled if a fully-built streetcar system attracted 25,000 riders a day.

So our region's priorities don't look so maddening to many people.

[JeffreyS]

As one of the 200,000 I vote for the streetcar and all that will come with it.

[stjr]

stjr...I personally would agree that funding transit is a much more sustainable long-term solution.

but honestly over 200,000 cars a day pass through the I-295/Blanding/Collins area...which probably translates to about 225,000 people....I would be thrilled if a fully-built streetcar system attracted 25,000 riders a day.

So our region's priorities don't look so maddening to many people.

Tufsu, there aren't 200,000 cars traveling on the Outer Beltway or 9B.  Yet, we are investing millions to billions to build those.  We spent hundreds of millions (or billions in today's dollars) to build I-295 when there were no cars before it.  The fact is much of transit is built in ANTICIPATION of demand, not after it.  Building street cars is such a project.  If every road built was in proportion to the traffic using it when it first opened, we wouldn't have much of a road system.  The same rule should apply to mass transit projects.

What we should be doing is relieving traffic in places like Orange Park with mass transit solutions, not $161 million in "maybe" road fixes that really just perpetuate, extend, and/or further enable the existing congestion.

[fsujax]

^^You should go to a JTA Board meeting and tell them how you feel. If more people would, then maybe things would change. I really do not think any JTA Board members are sitting around reading these posts.

[tufsu1]

Tufsu, there aren't 200,000 cars traveling on the Outer Beltway or 9B.  Yet, we are investing millions to billions to build those.  We spent hundreds of millions (or billions in today's dollars) to build I-295 when there were no cars before it.  The fact is much of transit is built in ANTICIPATION of demand, not after it.  Building street cars is such a project.  If every road built was in proportion to the traffic using it when it first opened, we wouldn't have much of a road system.  The same rule should apply to mass transit projects.

All transportation projects are built to deal with existing AND future demand....my hopeful projection of 25,000 streetcar riders wouldn't be seen for at least 20 years.

As for 9B and the Outer Beltway....2035 projections show as much as 100,000 vehicles on 9B and 85,000 on the Outer Beltway....also keep in mind that the if the Outer Beltway is built (and that's a big if right now), it will be built with private money....which will be repaid through user fees.

Perhaps some private entity will propose to do the same thing for transit...although that may take some time, especially with the recent resounding failure of the Las Vegas monorail.

[stjr]

....especially with the recent resounding failure of the Las Vegas monorail.

A monorail failure?  Will our $ky-high-way be following one day?

[thelakelander]

Speaking of public/private failures, how will the failure of Greenville's Southern Connector impact projects like the Outer Beltway?

[spuwho]

Skyway cars will need to be replaced with a redesign if is extended a significant distance.

They are designed for 90% standing, 10% sitting when full. Not practical for distance of over 5 miles.

If the Skyway is to become a true fixed, above the road transit system, then the cars will have to accommodate the expectations of sitting.

[stjr]

Skyway cars will need to be replaced with a redesign if is extended a significant distance.

They are designed for 90% standing, 10% sitting when full. Not practical for distance of over 5 miles.

If the Skyway is to become a true fixed, above the road transit system, then the cars will have to accommodate the expectations of sitting.

Interesting point, spuwho.  I haven't seen this addressed by pro-extension $ky-high-way fans, but if true, and it makes sense, it could certainly increase substantially the costs of an extension making it even more questionable than it already is.

Just another reason we need to forget the $ky-high-way and work on getting street cars that will do a much better job for less money and damage to the aesthetics of the areas it runs through.

Welcome and thanks for posting.

[Ocklawaha]

....especially with the recent resounding failure of the Las Vegas monorail.

A monorail failure?  Will our $ky-high-way be following one day?

SPUWHO/STJR: The skyway is not and never has been planned as a system of 5 mile long transit legs. NEVER! It is a downtown, urban shuttle, more akin to a horizontal elevator then to a train. Though it is now a true monorail, even the biggest optimist could see it costs almost the same per mile to expand as it does to build LIGHT RAIL, and Light Rail has larger and more comfortable, faster, vehicles.  Light Rail does not do so good in the urban core unless it is elevated, grade separated or in a subway, all out of reach of Jacksonville financially. BUT! We have the Skyway already in position to pick up that downtown operation, and we have JTA listening to the logic of a grade level transfer at the end points. I want it expanded to the minimum or closest actual destination that is a proved generator or receiver of traffic and not an inch more.

"The Skyway Loses Money!" Give it a rest stjr... This is typical of any passenger transit system, the amazing thing is that they managed to find investor's dumb enough to think "this time" the transit would make money! NOT!  Here is part of a new article that really shows what a "failure" the system is - since it actually has destinations at each end point:

The monorail opened in July 2004 and has never made enough money to fully pay its debts.

Still, a case can be made that the resort corridor benefits from a mass transit line, even if it’s only 3.9 miles long with seven stations.

During the four-day Consumer Electronics Show at the Las Vegas Convention Center, the system carried nearly 135,000 passengers â€" the equivalent of 45,000 three-passenger taxi trips or more than 2,450 55-passenger bus trips.

The monorail recently carried its 40 millionth rider.

But it has seen business decline during the recession. Ridership fell to 6 million in 2009 from 7.9 million in 2007. The system, which charges $5 for a one-way ride, collected $27 million in fare revenue in 2009, down from $29.7 million in 2008 and $30.3 million in 2007. Advertising revenue has also declined.

Last year, the system generated less than $5 million in net cash flow, woefully short of $34 million needed to service its debt.

Projections by the monorail company and analysts show revenue could grow to about $47 million by 2019. But after operating expenses, the company would be left with $19 million â€" far short of the $52 million in bond payments due that year.

It is going to get very interesting when the Monorail goes SUBWAY (yep that IS the plan) out to Mc Ferrin International Airport  . Ridership will spike at near capacity overnight. We only dream that our Skyway could be such a failure! In fact IT CAN! We just have to get it to Shand's, A.P. Randolph, San Marco/Atlantic, Riverside/Annie Lytle, and MAYBE Durkeeville. At that point it is done FOREVER and we can work on serious complimentary systems and connections... rather like it was promised in the first place. Now that MJ has the records, it's very interesting to learn that not only did JTA NOT BUILD IT WHERE THE CONSULTANTS RECOMMENDED TWICE, they never finished a single leg, or phase of it, never instituted the transfer system, never built the TOD's, Never opened the daycare center, never did the co-op businesses in the stations, never built the connecting sky walks... The whole thing was one giant FUBAR from 1978 on...

OCKLAWAHA

[Charles Hunter]

Wow! If the continents drifted as much as these topics, California would be bumping into Japan!  Aren't there already eleventy-seven other discussions on the ridership/extension/technology/cost of the Skyway?

Did anybody attend the JTA meeting where opponents of advertising shelters were supposed to show up?  What happened?

[stjr]

"The Skyway Loses Money!" Give it a rest stjr... This is typical of any passenger transit system...

Ock, I never said a word about losses in this thread but thanks for reminding us.  AS I HAVE SAID PREVIOUSLY countless times on our many other $ky-high-way threads, as pointed out by Charles, it isn't that it loses money, but how much it loses for what we get and versus other alternatives.  Ock, you are too smart to stoop to this sideshow.  Let's take the high road.  Well, not as high as the $ky-high-way  .

Charles, you are right.  Back to bus shelters.... maybe. 

[tufsu1]

Speaking of public/private failures, how will the failure of Greenville's Southern Connector impact projects like the Outer Beltway?

well the RFP hasn't even been advertised yet...so maybe we have the answer.