Skyway Merits Debated

Charles Hunter · January 31, 2008, 06:05:07 AM

"Chuck" - I guess you mean me?
IF cost were not an object - yes yes yes, extend it to PS4, Shands (along Jefferson St. to avoid Historic Bethel Church), the Sports Complex, and San Marco Square.

Coolyfett · February 05, 2008, 06:15:53 PM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 31, 2008, 06:05:07 AM
"Chuck" - I guess you mean me?
IF cost were not an object - yes yes yes, extend it to PS4, Shands (along Jefferson St. to avoid Historic Bethel Church), the Sports Complex, and San Marco Square.

Historic Bethel is on Pearl Street??

Charles Hunter · February 05, 2008, 10:15:14 PM

I'm suggesting that if the existing line along Hogan were to be extended to Shands, it would need to turn west on State Street, immediately after leaving the Rosa Parks station, then go north along Jefferson or Broad. The original plan (Ock, check me here, the synapses don't always remember correctly) was to continue north thru the FCCJ campus, then follow the creek up to the hospital complex. This would put the elevated track really close to the historic Bethel building. Blocking the view from downtown. This is a no-no with historic structures. And it would be ugly as heck.

Ocklawaha · February 05, 2008, 10:59:25 PM

Charles, you are correct about the original route, due North. Myself, I would also go with streetcar, and THAT is what would really serve the neighborhood of San Marco, Riverside-Avondale, and Springfield. The Skyway and the Streetcar as well as TRUE electric shuttle buses, would tie the system together.

The Skyway, wouldn't get past the North Fence of FCCJ. But I WOULD take it that far, maybe a bit to the left or right but just to the Northside of the campus. Keep the students off the highway, AND arrange the gates so on school days the school side would be open as well as the streetside of the station, on closed dates, the school side would close up. If they used TRUE SINGLE BEAM MONORAIL, they should get away with the whole thing for about what another dumb foot bridge system would cost.

Ocklawaha

Coolyfett · February 12, 2008, 10:44:29 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 05, 2008, 10:59:25 PM
Charles, you are correct about the original route, due North. Myself, I would also go with streetcar, and THAT is what would really serve the neighborhood of San Marco, Riverside-Avondale, and Springfield. The Skyway and the Streetcar as well as TRUE electric shuttle buses, would tie the system together.

The Skyway, wouldn't get past the North Fence of FCCJ. But I WOULD take it that far, maybe a bit to the left or right but just to the Northside of the campus. Keep the students off the highway, AND arrange the gates so on school days the school side would be open as well as the streetside of the station, on closed dates, the school side would close up. If they used TRUE SINGLE BEAM MONORAIL, they should get away with the whole thing for about what another dumb foot bridge system would cost.

Ocklawaha

Hey Ock do you have an ORIGINAL PLAN layout you can post here??

thelakelander · February 12, 2008, 10:55:23 AM

Here's the original Skyway route map.

Here is what was built

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/232/114/

Steve · February 12, 2008, 01:56:44 PM

Actually, the 1970's era plan makes much more sense, save for the pie in the sky river crossing.

Coolyfett · February 26, 2008, 08:54:16 PM

My questions.....

The East line??? Why was that part not finished? Seems to me that line would generate the most money!!!But thats the one they choose not to build??? BACKWARDS!!! There is way more going on in the Sport Complex then the Convention Center Eerrrrr Union Terminal!!! JTA would make the money back. All the parking at the stadium, the ballpark, the arena & Metropark/Kids. All the Southside & Arlington workers could use this parking easily. The East line Stations would also generate the most money on nights and weekends during events. And this is the one they choose not to build?? BACKWARDS!!!! FL-GA weekend!!! Jag games!!! Concerts/events!!! why would JTA leave all that annual money on the table??? Lake help me out!!! Whats the secret?

Ocklawaha · February 26, 2008, 09:38:41 PM

We have built the Skyway 2 and 1/2 times over already. First as a rubber tire DPM on a elevated road with guide rails, then we scrapped that and laid a single beam monorail on top of the DPM road.... That was Number 2, then we went across the river and even though we were already into the monorail era with the thing, we went right ahead and built the original DPM road then laid the Monorail on top of that part too! The entire Southbank should be a set of single beam monorails, which they are certainly not. Someone in the big concrete business made a ton of money on that deal... Somebody who was maybe connected with JTA? Someone who could be in City Hall today? You check the dates, we've got the goods on him.

Point 2 is even after changing to Monorail, we went with a tiny distributer system. Little cars, no walk through, no train, no 4 or 6 car trains. All of the above were available. In fact there are at least two advanced systems that cost about 1/2 as much as we paid just for the trains. Now all you would-be transit guys brand this on the inside of your hands... THE FORMULA... 30,000 PPDPH "30,000 passengers per direction per hour". Remember JTA planned on 56,000 a day, then put on the monorail with a top capacity of about 3,000 per hour. Even if it went to the superbowl it would take 20 hours to get 60,000 people in the stands! Hardly the transit system JTA sold the City. It could be saved. We could bring in the new companies and have a look at a cheap and quick way to greatly increase load and route. I have numbers that say somewhere around 20-30 million a mile is realistic for a system that could fill the stadium in 2 - 2 1/2 hours. Add bus shuttles, autos, walk ups, streetcar's and we'd be in business.

Right now at City Hall or JTA the Skyway is a job killer. If the boss has concrete money in his pocket, no wonder why...

Ocklawaha

gatorback · February 27, 2008, 10:47:35 PM

Regarless of the cost, the Skyway really is a nice system. Unfortunately the city raped and sodomized us on the it.

Ocklawaha · February 28, 2008, 09:59:19 AM

Wow, well put Gatorback. It was JTA that did it... And let's not forget who was on the board of directors...

Gee, I thought something felt funny about that! Ouch!

But Pssssst.... I think it was Gomora that had the Monorail! It things like that that give those Sodomites a bad name.

Ocklawaha

Coolyfett · March 05, 2008, 09:52:51 PM

East Line coming?!?!?

"Last month when workers dug up Bay Street for the infrastructure for the Automated Skyway System, they uncovered the old trolley tracks which used to run down Bay. The new ultra modern transportation will be right on top of the 1890's transportation system."

I got this from a book call "Crackers & Carpetbaggers" Chapter: Bay Street History, pg 13. The book's copyright date is 2005. Written by John W. Cowart. Is anyone familiar with this book?? Is there really plans to run the Skyway down Bay Street? The old tracks are just paved over and never removed??

Steve · March 05, 2008, 10:16:07 PM

Well, the Bay St leg of the skyway (originally known as the Automated Skyway Express) was done in the 1980, so that's very possible. There were plans to extend it down to the stadium, bit that project was pulled.

As far as the trolley tracks, in most cases they are paved over. When Hendricks avenue was redone a couple of years ago, they pulled up trolley tracks.

scaleybark · March 06, 2008, 10:14:17 AM

I know this is a getting a bit off topic, but speaking of rail lines, when the state widened Riverside Ave a few years ago, they pulled up a bunch of railroad ties that were paved over. It took a while to do it too. They were hefty and looked to be built to last. I'm not sure if they were trolly ties or regular freight railroad ties.

As far as the skyway goes, it always seemed over-engineered to me. I don't know anything about engineering, but it seems to me a system like that could be build using much less material, perhaps an exposed steel frame. Exposed steel structures can be made to look appealing. If they had chosen to use rubber wheeled trains instead of a monorail, couldn't they have brought it down to the street level in spots, with barriers to keep the regular street vehicles out of the way?

Steve · March 06, 2008, 10:38:34 AM

when the original people mover was completed in teh 1980, it used technology from a company called Matra:

The image above is Miami's, but it's the same stuff. Notice the rubber tires. Our tracks had some guardrails that Miami's doesn't but it's essentially the same thing.

When they decided to expand it, apparently negotiations with Matra fell through, and Bombardier was brought in to build what we have today:

This is a monorail technology. Well, when the tracks were expanded, it appears that they just took the Matra design, and added a concrete beam in the middle, when they could have just gone with something like the Disney Monorail:

Why did JTA do this. I have no idea.