Wafflegate on CSX Sweetheart Deal

[Lunican]

So what exactly is "the going rate for track"?

Also, I think Dockery has this backwards.

I assumed the state would be a tough negotiator when a Fortune 500 company approached with an offer to sell 61.5 miles of track through Central Florida.

The track wasn't for sale. The state approached CSX. Not exactly the strongest position for negotiations.

[thelakelander]

Florida will pay seven times the going rate for track.

As you know, I'm going to give you flack on this one.  The overall deal's cost is being taken completely out of context by rail novices that continue to compare apples with oranges.  

Btw, I'm still waiting to see just one of these people mention the "correct" going rate for such a deal and an example of similar deal that would suggest this one was overpriced.  Until we can start tossing some real life comparables out there to show that the deal is overpriced, this stuff is nothing more than bad hot air.

[FayeforCure]

Florida will pay seven times the going rate for track.

As you know, I'm going to give you flack on this one.  The overall deal's cost is being taken completely out of context by rail novices that continue to compare apples with oranges.  

Btw, I'm still waiting to see just one of these people mention the "correct" going rate for such a deal and an example of similar deal that would suggest this one was overpriced.  Until we can start tossing some real life comparables out there to show that the deal is overpriced, this stuff is nothing more than bad hot air.

I'm not getting back into this. The Boston folks got a MUCH better deal. Floridians are push-overs for large Florida corporations.

[thelakelander]

Please provide some Boston numbers and describe the project and existing environment a little more.  For example:

1. What was the acquistion price of the rail line?

2. Was the line purchased a main line that requires the shifting of significant freight traffic?

3. If the answer to question 2 is yes, does an alternative route for freight traffic already exist with enough capacity to handle relocated trains along with the trains already running on it?

I think we can all agree that depending on how the questions are answered a price could go up or down.  Let's find out once and for all if we are comparing apples to apples.

[Midway ®]

If the price was too high they should have gone to Wal-Mart and just picked another 63 mile rail right of way off the shelf that cost less.

Perhaps one that was made in China would have been less costly.

[FayeforCure]

If the price was too high they should have gone to Wal-Mart and just picked another 63 mile rail right of way off the shelf that cost less.

Perhaps one that was made in China would have been less costly.

Well yeah, why even question the price demanded by a monopoly? We could have even added another $100 million for good measure. It's not like Florida has ANY budget woes, now do we 

So much for those fiscal conservatives.

Sqeezing single moms is ok,........but whoa if we question monopolies!

[Lunican]

FDOT's annual budget is $7 Billion. What else did they buy this year?

[reednavy]

Please provide some Boston numbers and describe the project and existing environment a little more.  For example:

1. What was the acquistion price of the rail line?

2. Was the line purchased a main line that requires the shifting of significant freight traffic?

3. If the answer to question 2 is yes, does an alternative route for freight traffic already exist with enough capacity to handle relocated trains along with the trains already running on it?

I think we can all agree that depending on how the questions are answered a price could go up or down.  Let's find out once and for all if we are comparing apples to apples.

Faye, this question is directed towards you. You have yet to provide anything outside of news articles. You can't dodge it by saying "you all know the price", well you're the one saying there could've been a better deal and tossed Boston under the bus w/o providing evidence to back it up. I'm not being hostile, I just like facts with any talk.

[tufsu1]

Those who opposed the Sunrail deal were not against rail, they just wanted to get a fair shake.

Bull...everyone knows that the legislative process almost always involves taking the good with the bad....if these folks were truly fans of rail, they would have seen the big picture

[thelakelander]

Faye, are you sure the Boston deal is apples to apples when compared to Sunrail's?  Why didn't you mention the line they are purchasing from CSX already has commuter rail service?

“What distinguishes the Framingham/Worcester Line is that it’s controlled by CSX, which can be a problem,’’ said Peisch, since the freight company can give its trains priority over the commuter service. The MBTA owns the tracks used by its other commuter lines.

The state reached a tentative $100 million deal in October to buy the Framingham/Worcester Line’s tracks from CSX in hopes of improving commuter service between Boston and Central Massachusetts.

When the deal was reached, it was reported that it could take until 2012 to complete.

The Worcester/Framingham Line is among the MBTA’s busiest commuter services, carrying 4,000 to 5,000 passengers roundtrip every weekday, but it has also long been plagued by delays.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2009/08/02/framingham_worcester_commuter_rail_operator_pledges_changes_to_avert_delays/

So, we're not even talking about shifting freight traffic or constructing a new commuter rail service, its already in operation and has been since 1996.

The line in question


Its obviously pretty foolish to use this as a comparable to the Sunrail deal.  Any other examples out there worth comparing to show Florida paid CSX too much?

[CS Foltz]

Fella's...........I did not see anything regarding "Length" of the CSX controlled tracks and still have to agree with the general concensus .....MBTA situation is not comparable to SunRail! They already have a commuter service going unlike SunRail .....their issue appears to be a "Switching" issue (according to the Boston Globe article) but at only a cost of $500K they can fix that! Sounds like poor planning to me maintenance wise, you plan ahead to keep service up and running (Aircraft used to be on a schedule like that) but what do I know!

[thelakelander]

The MBTA line to Worcester is 24 miles.  The track being purchased in Central Florida is 61.5 miles.

There is a unique challenge to adding more trains between Worcester and Framingham. The 24 miles of track between the two communities is the only stretch of the commuter rail system serving Boston and its suburbs that is not owned by the MBTA. It is owned by CSX Corp., the huge railroad company that runs a lot of freight along that stretch. Officials note that the Worcester-Framingham line has suffered from the worst on-time performance in the MBTA commuter rail system.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/12/rail_riding_commuters_want_more_service_soon/

[FayeforCure]

Faye, are you sure the Boston deal is apples to apples when compared to Sunrail's? 

Hey, you know, if your position is that Florida should get Sunrail at ANY cost, as it seems to have been this past year while I've been visiting Metrojacksonville, then so be it. I'm sure that not even the most well-researched information is going to have you concede that we over-paid.

Since Dockery has been researching this issue with her staff, something I do not have the luxury of, I am satisfied that the following is true or someone such as her opponent in her race for governor would have eagerly pointed her errors out. So here is what I know,.................if you want more information ( which I doubt ) I will need to direct you to Ms Dockery:

Those who support the growth of mass transportation projects should passionately demand that Tri-Rail no longer be “held hostage” to the passage of a very costly freight subsidy/land development project disguised as commuter rail (with a projected ridership of only 3,500 passengers), and for Florida to support its existing commuter rail system before committing billions of taxpayer dollars to another system. 

They should  strongly insist to FDOT that they renegotiate the SunRail corridor purchase to be more in line with the very similar rail purchase in Massachusetts, which is $1.5 million per mile for 60 miles of track.  In fact, the national average cost per mile rail purchase is around $700,000.  The SunRail deal amounts to $10 million per mile for 61 miles of track.

Much has been said about Florida emulating the proposed liability agreement between CSX and Massachusetts, including FDOT’s Secretary’s comments to the Cabinet this morning.  Don’t you think that Florida’s taxpayers deserve the price per mile that Massachusetts is paying?

Grossly overpaying for a single proposed system jeopardizes the future of a comprehensive, integrated rail transit system throughout our state.  Especially when that proposed system was never voted on in a referendum by the local residents who will be required to assume the cost of its operations and maintenance from FDOT after seven years.

Transit-oriented development is meritorious in economic benefit, but not if it comes at a secretly and poorly negotiated “at any price” rail purchase cost to the taxpayers of Florida and the unwise transfer of liability for rail corridor accidents to the taxpayers of Florida (even if the accident is the result of CSX negligence).

http://blogs.creativeloafing.com/dailyloaf/2009/11/18/paula-dockery-not-backing-down-on-sunrail-csx-deal/

Hey, in Florida price gouging by a rail monopoly is ok with the MJ boys.

[reednavy]

How about you stop with these little attacks at the Admin and such of the website. That said, she supports HSR, but is bitching over the cost of tracks that were never for sale to begin with, sounds like she is flip-flopping on the whole subject. As has been said, the MA tracks were not a major freight line and were for sale, so you're not giving a fair comparison and not really fully answering the question.

[Lunican]

Again, Dockery's $10 million per mile includes the cost of highway overpasses, some which are already built and were already planned. She's being disingenuous because those are FDOT's responsibility anyway.

Cost based on dollars going to CSX: $7.5 million / mile
Cost based on the actual sale of the land: $2.5 million / mile