Commuter rail bill criticized as CSX 'sweetheart deal'

[thelakelander]

How much should the line have cost and what price range would you consider as an acceptable deal to the taxpayers?

[Lunican]

Ok, so since a railroad would be much more interested in lobbying DC than a state capital, we can deduce that there were definitely not 200 CSX lobbyists in Tallahassee.

[FayeforCure]

How much should the line have cost and what price range would you consider as an acceptable deal to the taxpayers?

Well, since I'm no expert myself, but others have been following this drama for almost a decade, I will refer you to what I found:

Thanks to Paula Dockery for doing her homework. What seems to be forgotten in this debate when politicos say "we will get Fed, State, County or municiple $'s to pay for this, they forget that I pay all of those taxes. I support rail, but not at any cost. Renegotiate the deal with CSX! $10 million per mile compared to Boston's $1.5 per mile is corporate gouging. This would be the highest priced cost per mile ever, anywhere. What happened to walkable communities, this seems to fly in the face of that model.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/11/sparks-fly-at-dockerys-winter-park-appearance.html

[FayeforCure]

Ok, so since a railroad would be much more interested in lobbying DC than a state capital, we can deduce that there were definitely not 200 CSX lobbyists in Tallahassee.

Sure Lunican, CSX lobbyist wouldn't want to lobby in Tallahassee now would they?

It's because we have so few lobbyists interested in lobbying in Tallahassee   :

Despite Times, Lobbyists Retain Plenty of Work

By Joe Follick
TALLAHASSEE BUREAU


Published: Saturday, March 7, 2009 at 11:24 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, March 7, 2009 at 11:24 p.m.


TALLAHASSEE | As anxious lawmakers fret over every dollar during an unprecedented economic slide, one industry defying the downturn is on display every day with a legion of lobbyists outnumbering legislators, 11-1, in the Capitol.


"Our business is one of those where people sometimes feel like they need more representation in this kind of environment," said John Thrasher, one of the Capitol's top lobbyists and a former House speaker. "There has been some drop-off (in clients), but there have been some commensurate gains." ( READ REVOLVING DOOR)

As of Friday, there were 1,889 lobbyists registered to make their case to 160 lawmakers in the House and Senate. That number fluctuates and may pick up toward the end of this year's 60-day session on May 1. In 2003, when the state was flush with cash, there were 2,029 registered legislative lobbyists.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20090307/NEWS/903075032?Title=Despite-Times-Lobbyists-Retain-Plenty-of-Work

And you don't think CSX would deploy 200 of them for this once in a life-time deal in Florida?

[thelakelander]

Paula Dockery is no expert either

CSX cost breakdown

$198 million - improvements to S-Line to mitigate impact on surrounding communities associated with CSX train rerouting.

$52 million - for increased freight capacity improvements throughout the state

$9 million - for road improvements to access new CSX Integrated Logistics Center (new Winter Haven railyard)

$150 million - to purchase 61.5 miles of track in Central Florida, a corridor valued at $420 million

$23 million -  to relocate Taft Yard (in Orlando) to a new yard CSX will construct in Winter Haven.

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

The 61.5 mile CSX ROW acquisition is $150 million.  That's roughly $2.4 million per mile.  

Can you tell us a little more about the Boston line?  For example....

1. Is it main line that was not for sale?

2. Does it involve the company relocating significant train traffic around a metro with 2 million people?

3. Does it involve having to move a railyard because Boston wants freight traffic shifted?

If we can access the answers to this information, we can figure out if the Boston example is an apples to apples comparison.  My guess is they aren't.

[FayeforCure]

CSX cost breakdown

$198 million - improvements to S-Line to mitigate impact on surrounding communities associated with CSX train rerouting.

$52 million - for increased freight capacity improvements throughout the state

$9 million - for road improvements to access new CSX Integrated Logistics Center (new Winter Haven railyard)

$150 million - to purchase 61.5 miles of track in Central Florida, a corridor valued at $420 million

$23 million -  to relocate Taft Yard (in Orlando) to a new yard CSX will construct in Winter Haven.

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

The 61.5 mile CSX ROW acquisition is $150 million.  That's roughly $2.4 million per mile.  

Can you tell us a little more about the Boston line?  For example....

1. Is it main line that was not for sale?

2. Does it involve the company relocating significant train traffic around a metro with 2 million people?

3. Does it involve having to move a railyard because Boston wants freight traffic shifted?

If we can access the answers to this information, we can figure out if the Boston example is an apples to apples comparison.  My guess is they aren't.

Funny, how you can't see that $491 million went into the hands of CSX for the commuter rail deal.

CSX will actually get direct payments of $491 million according to page 4 of

http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site/upload/documents/CommuterRail_MythsFacts_June2008.pdf

Regardless of how CSX chooses to spend it. That's almost $10 per mile as Dockery states.

But using your accounting trick to reduce it by what CSX claims they are spending the money on, still leaves a far higher cost per mile than Boston.

BTW, I thought you were one of the people who claimed that opponents compared our purchase to CSX lines in rural areas,...........well apparently that was another lie by those who wanted Sunrail any cost. Boston is hardly considered rural, and probably more prime real estate than Orlando.

Sprawl Rail it is, and I'm not the only one who thinks so:

What happened to walkable communities, this seems to fly in the face of that model.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2009/11/sparks-fly-at-dockerys-winter-park-appearance.html

Still amazes me that we would want to support anything that's projected to only take 3500 riders off I-4 of the 270,000 daily riders on I-4,........go figure!!!

[Lunican]

That's politics I guess.

[thelakelander]

Funny, how you can't see that $491 million went into the hands of CSX for the commuter rail deal.

I can read it just fine.  By reading it fine I can also follow the money trail and see what certain things cost and why they are needed.  Since you are bringing the Boston line to the table as a comparison, I'm asking you to provide the money trail for it so we can see if they are apples to apples comparisons.

Regardless of how CSX chooses to spend it. That's almost $10 per mile as Dockery states.

But using your accounting trick to reduce it by what CSX claims they are spending the money on, still leaves a far higher cost per mile than Boston.

No accounting tricks, just pointing out where money is being spent and why.  You know...cause and effect.  Are you are under the assumption that CSX will pocket cash and not upgrade the S-Line, relocate the Taft Yard, shift existing freight traffic or build the Winter Haven ILC.  I don't see how that type of logic is realistic but if that's the case, I can see where you are coming from.  Again, I'd like to see some Boston info.

BTW, I thought you were one of the people who claimed that opponents compared our purchase to CSX lines in rural areas,...........well apparently that was another lie by those who wanted Sunrail any cost. Boston is hardly considered rural, and probably more prime real estate than Orlando.

I didn't say anything about rural areas.  I stated that compared lines most likely have different physical factors that lead to different prices.  I keep asking for more info on the Boston line you keep talking about but you won't provide it.  That info will confirm which one of us is right or wrong.

Sprawl Rail it is, and I'm not the only one who thinks so:

How is does Sunrail promote sprawl?  I see how it can encourage TOD in Central Florida community's downtown areas but I fail to see how it promotes the development of low density sprawl.

Still amazes me that we would want to support anything that's projected to only take 3500 riders off I-4 of the 270,000 daily riders on I-4,........go figure!!!

I'm still amazed people support our HSR plan in its current configuration.  Giving CSX money for a line they own and helping them mitigate the negative impact of the sale to their business is wrong but dropping $2.5 billion on a line that doesn't serve most of I-4 commuters or even go into Orlando is good use of tax money. Go figure!

[Lunican]

U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, likened the passage of SunRail to a kidney stone that had recently plagued him.

"They were equally painful," joked Mica, who has been pursuing a mass-transit plan in Central Florida since taking office in 1992 but had been stymied until Tuesday. "There is no question this is a milestone in the state's history."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-sunrail-senate-20091208,0,3304424.story

[BridgeTroll]

NOW you've done it!

[JeffreyS]

I love that we are arguing the pros and cons of the rail projects the state is moving forward with. So much better than cursing all the things that do not move forward.

[thelakelander]

You got that right!

[buckethead]

Earlier in this thread, Faye suggested that some of our resident experts may infact be lobbyists, employees and/or CSX stockholders.

I had never considered such, as I am fairly naive. It would be interesting to know any of this information, although clearly no one is obligated to disclose it.

Kudos to Faye however, for raising the possibility. Anyone?

[thelakelander]

I'm not.

[CS Foltz]

Neither am I............aircraft or cell systems towers and the like .....that I will take credit for.......along with tugboat operations and barges but CSX and its op's no sir!