TPO plan includes $777M in bus, commuter rail and more

[Ocklawaha]

Take a CLOSE look, In Jacksonville, progress is not always forward.

TUSFU1
1. Streetcar - timetable is not set in stone, but without significant local funds, construction probably could not commence before 2020....that said, Lakelander tells me the City is moving towards funding streetcar w/ developer's concurrency payments.

There are several benefits here that can become funding for expansion or operations. The current parking requirements for new high rises downtown or within the "streetcar/skyway districts," should be eliminated providing out laying garages such as the Kings Avenue, and a factor from the park and ride lots. The sales pitch is simple, BUILD IN JAX = enjoy great downtown transit + no need to spend a huge chunk of change on parking up front. This is done because they located and/or BUILT within the district and agreed to a formula of transit tax + transit passes for employees. None of this is rocket science, but there are many ways to get this done.

What we don't need and CAN'T AFFORD, is to get all swishy - washy about completion of the streetcar as we have done with the Skyway segments. IE: Don't build the damn things if we are not going to address the parking and building requirements for the same. Don't half way build something on traffic that doesn't and may NEVER exist. Currently there IS a flow from Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Westside, Arlington, into downtown, every day. We can not afford to "Do the Skyway Dance" and shift our lines from a sound recommendation, such as Government Center - Landing - FCCJ, and end up with another Central Station - DEAD TINY Convention Center disaster.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

Tufsu, thanks for all the question answers!

I believe you have validated my perception that once a project gets "endorsed" onto the list, it's likely here to stay until it finally gets funded.  So, the here and now is important for the there and later.  9B, Outer Beltway, and projects like them that create urban sprawl are assured for the next 20 years.  We need to make sure we bring a stop to such nonsense.

The "funded" streetcars really aren't at this time.  And, the Matthews Bridge is just a shot in the dark until it moves up on the list.

I am befuddled by the idea of a TPO when Tallahassee decides 80% or so of the projects.  Looks like political smoke and mirrors to me.

....that said, the Supreme Court case (Kelo vs. New London) in fact held up the use of eminent domain for primarily private interests as long as the economic development "good" case can be proven.

Well, this is certainly a debatable point in some quarters.  Maybe someone could take FDOT to court over this and block the project.  A protester should buy a small parcel in the path of the road and make a case of it.

Tufsu, what about Wakeup's comment on air quality?  Does the Outer Beltway eat into certain allowances for this that might affect other road projects in the region?

[tufsu1]

I believe you have validated my perception that once a project gets "endorsed" onto the list, it's likely here to stay until it finally gets funded. 

This applies to the transit projects on the list too....that's why this is such a breakthrough!

As for the air quality comment, I'm not sure.

[Ocklawaha]

The trouble with the "Outer Beltway," (besides wrecking the former base and 800 ship port at Green Cove Springs) is that it continues the long-standing federal push toward far-flung McMansions and away from dense, urban living. In the 1950s, the Interstate Highway System encouraged Americans to flee older urban areas. Nathaniel Baum-Snow of Brown University found that each “new highway passing through a central city reduces its population by about 18 percent.’’

Carbon Neutrality in Clay, Duval and St. Johns? The Kyoto Accords established targets for the global reduction of harmful green house gasses. There are many ways to achieve this goal. One approach is to produce things using less energy,and the other is to re-form waste into new products to minimize new GHG creation. Companies, cities and transit agencies that do a particularly good job of reducing emissions can sell this value through Verified Emissions Reductions “VERs” and Reduced Emissions Credits “RECs”. A roadway manufactured from recycled and non-petroleum based materials and filled with solar powered automobiles would earn valuable credits from the UN. So outer beltway? Commuter Rail? Streetcar or LRT? Skyway? You tell me which ones will be worth MILLIONS and which one will cost us a "Carbon Tax!"

Not thinking long term out in the sticks here, there ARE BETTER WAYS even if we accept sprawl.

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

TUFSU, re: the Kelo case.  After Kelo a lot of states passed state laws limiting eminent domain for economic development purposes.  Was Florida one of those?  If so might make land acquisition for the outer beltway a problem.

[north miami]

On the sprawl note,a rambling observation:

Many in the past twenty years or so have been attracted to certain areas due to lack of "sprawl"...only to find that what they saw-and perhaps sold-was not what they got.

The emergence of Edge Cities is fascinating,there at least fifteen such in the Northeast US and we of course have our own versions in Northeast Florida.

The uncanny resemblence of the Jacksonville area trend to Southeast Florida induced the creation of my user name.

We don't have the Everglades to the west- we're on our way to resembling Atlanta,which in fact is the realization of the dreams of many.

"Sprawl" is the result of unspoken assumptions,'projections' and the blind acceptance of the drumbeat of "inevitable growth".

Northest Denver has held back on a beltway proposal ...and such a 'public' process as the one that has delivered the First Coast beltway would never proceed in Alachua county for example.

[tufsu1]

TUFSU, re: the Kelo case.  After Kelo a lot of states passed state laws limiting eminent domain for economic development purposes.  Was Florida one of those?  If so might make land acquisition for the outer beltway a problem.

Florida didn't change their laws...felt they were strict enough anyway

[tufsu1]

On the sprawl note,a rambling observation:

Many in the past twenty years or so have been attracted to certain areas due to lack of "sprawl"...only to find that what they saw-and perhaps sold-was not what they got.

The emergence of Edge Cities is fascinating,there at least fifteen such in the Northeast US and we of course have our own versions in Northeast Florida.

The uncanny resemblence of the Jacksonville area trend to Southeast Florida induced the creation of my user name.

We don't have the Everglades to the west- we're on our way to resembling Atlanta,which in fact is the realization of the dreams of many.

"Sprawl" is the result of unspoken assumptions,'projections' and the blind acceptance of the drumbeat of "inevitable growth".

Northest Denver has held back on a beltway proposal ...and such a 'public' process as the one that has delivered the First Coast beltway would never proceed in Alachua county for example.

Some edge cities have developed quite nicely over time...Bethesda and Rockville outside D.C. for example.

Atlanta has also grown up quite a bit....still sprawling, but also a pretty cool urban vibe going on.

As for Alachua County...guess what, they've had a bypass/beltway proposal bantered about for over 10 years.

[north miami]

Alachua county is a whole different demographic,with much more spirited, knowledgeable citizen input and other initiatives.
The ill fated Jax/Tampa toll road during the Martinez administration is testimony to the Alachua outlook- Gainesville area intersts killed Jax/Tampa,which was to originate from Brannon/Chaffee,and has of course easily turned itself back in the form of the TPO plan and beltway.

There are in fact myriad 'plans'- MPO future roadways maps predict the future.

And the public response is typically:stunned incomprehension

[tufsu1]

Some would call folks in Alachua County visionary and progressive...others might be better suited for these
terms

BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything

CAVE - citizens against virtually everything

[north miami]

Some would call folks in Alachua County visionary and progressive...others might be better suited for these
terms

BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything

CAVE - citizens against virtually everything
[/quote]


It's all about a shrinking world in the face of 'growth'.
NIMBY is in fact an honorable,responsible position in many instances.......there are now enough new backyards to alter the issues and outlooks.

[tufsu1]

and where would you suggest the additional 10 million Floridians (and 100 million Americans) expected between now and 2030 live?

We can't all be NIMBYs

[Ocklawaha]

The fire has already been lit on the Jacksonville - Gainesville shuttle train, let's see if it picks up any steam...  HA! HA!

BTW, almost all of the interest is from Alachua and Baker Counties, LEAD ON lil' brothers and sisters.

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

and where would you suggest the additional 10 million Floridians (and 100 million Americans) expected between now and 2030 live?

We can't all be NIMBYs

Tufsu, if they really show up, they can live in close-in, high density housing.  Where do you think we will put people when we run out of buildable land?  Do we give up all our forests, agriculture, wetlands, and remaining natural areas for endless houses, stores, and roads?  At some point, it must come to an end as our current path of development is not sustainable from an ecosystem, infrastructure, economic, natural resource, or environmental standpoint.  The sooner we deal with these limitations and adjust for them the better.

Live right or die!

[CS Foltz]

stjr...........I agree! That is what  I refer to when I use the word "Vision".............not only now, as in right now, but tomorrow plus 20 yrs. Vision and a Plan is something that I keep harping about and rightfully so since the current Administration does not appear to have much of either. That is both Jacksonville and Tallahassee by the way.......at least Washington appears to be trying but time will tell! TPO is taking input from a lot of sources, including the public, and shows some imagination with a spectrum of transportation choices. I would like to see more rail or trolley systems since they can move people at a cheaper cost per rider.....but that just me! tufsu1 ....the label "NIMBY" could be used to start someone down a political path. I offer "Suzanne Jenkins" as an example.......if you know how she got started you will understand.