TPO plan includes $777M in bus, commuter rail and more

[Ocklawaha]

This JTA "Trolley" is not a TROLLEY a STREETCAR a TROLLEY BUS or even a very good BUS! In fact IMO it looks more like the baby died and the afterbirth lived... Meet the abomination we call the JTA PCT (Potato Chip Truck) Trolley.

The LRTP project refers to an actual streetcar project not the PCT or an extension of the PCT.

Right you are Cline, it's a REAL streetcar... hopefully the same heritage system I first proposed to JCCI and DDA back in 1980. Streetcar? Jacksonville? "I'm your huckleberry..."

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

I am all for the "commuter rain" but have no idea what the hell "more" is?  Bus's should be feeder for the rail system but what do I know!

[stjr]

This is, however, we have seen a significant shift in investment from highways to transit.

OK, Wakeup, I'll give some credit for what you call "progress".  However, it's also "progress" when the first fire truck shows for a 4-alarm fire.  But, it isn't gonna help much until the rest of the fire department shows up.  When are we going to get a fully prioritized and funded mass transit program for Northeast Florida?  As you say, yourself, lip service has been given for a long time.  Meanwhile, we work AGAINST OURSELVES by creating new urban sprawl through over funding road expansions that (1) divert resources from mass transit and (2) cause even greater need for the mass transit we aren't adequately funding putting us further and further behind the 8-ball.

.... It is also supported by TPO policies discouraging widening of arterials beyond 3 lanes in each direction, promoting the use of technology to improve the efficiency of the road system we have on the ground today, promoting alternative fuels and vehicles and other measures to reduce transportation-related greenhouse gas emissions.

I didn't see any of these policies elaborated on in the articles but will take your point at face value.  I seem to remember (Tufsu, I believe) saying there are already plans to 8 lane I-295 in places.  Are you saying this isn't going to happen?  And, what are the specifics that TPO is putting in place to encourage alternative fuels and vehicles?  It seems most of that is coming at the Federal level.  Just how effective is TPO in seeing these policies through or is this mostly "mom and apple pie" rhetoric for an unknowing public?

These funding decisions are made in Tallahassee and the TPO, as well as the 25 other metropolitan planning organizations have no choice but to drop these projects into their plans.  These account for 75% of the highway funds. The TPO programs only 25% of the remaining "other arterial funds."  Other "regionally significant" projects like the First Coast Outer Beltway" must also be included because of the air quality impact they will have on our region.

If Tallahassee decides 75% of the funded uses, what's the point in the TPO speaking on those items for which they have no say over?  Why not let Tallahassee speak for itself and defend its own point of view?

I don't understand the comment you make on the First Coast Outer Beltway.  Are you implying that it may deprive investment in other area road projects by utilizing "air quality credits" that may be available to support other road projects?  If this is the case, then the community should be made aware that, aside from funding, the FCOB will effect our community by preventing road improvement elsewhere in the TPO region.  Is this correct?

LRTPs are not cast in stone.  They are revisited every 5 years.  If conditions change, if a funding source is no longer available, if new funding sources are identified, if population declines or grows, and/or if federal regulations change, these changes can be taken into consideration.

Aside from the change in the timing of projects, can you reveal the recommendations from 5,10,15, and 20 years ago for the equivalent agency and tell us which recommendations did not get built and are no longer being considered?  Which projects on this list do you think are likely to fade away forever?  9B?  Outer Beltway?  Something else?

[stjr]

On one hand, I think it's a really dumb plan. It will only bring more sprawl to Clay County and has dubious merit as an economic development tool. It's also INSANE that they want to replace the Shands Bridge, rather than build a new bridge in between Shands and Buckman.

On the other hand, I don't really have a problem with this as long as it's a privately funded toll road. If private citizens want to pay to build it, and pay to drive on it, that's fine by me.

To clarify, do the private funders of a FCOB pay for the acquisition of the land as well as the construction of the road?  Who does the eminent domain takings?  If the State does, does it get compensated?  Can they still do this for a private project after the Supreme Court ruling a few years ago putting constraints on eminent domain takings for private projects?

Also, even if the road is privately funded to your satisfaction Joe, who do you think pays for all the other infrastructure needed to support the urban sprawl it creates?  Who pays for all the new roads built or expanded to connect to the FCOB?  Don't these costs amount to a "hidden" taxypayer subsidy of the FCOB?  Are you willing to pay for that?

[CS Foltz]

I think that $11 to $14 Million per mile price tage is a bit too much.................how about it Ock? Last that I remember figure wise we were talking about 6 to 7 million per mile or am I mis-remembering? We have had so many figures being spouted about that I am having a hard time trying to remember them all! I also have to question the "more" part too!

[north miami]

THE GENERAL "PUBLIC",AND REGIONAL CONSERVATION/ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY HAS BEEN ABSENT FROM CORE MPO DECISION MAKING PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN EXTENDED TO THEM.

[tufsu1]

Folks,

Good thread discussion...sorry I've been absent as I was travelling today.

So a few quick comments on the article and the LRTP (apologize if these have already been answered)

1. Streetcar
These are real and almost the entire system was funded

2. Outer Beltway
Not included in federal, state, or local funds, only built if private entity does so...and tolls are a user fee....most who scream about taxes talk about government waste....tolls only get paid by those who use the road.

3. Mathews Bridge
Seriously misquoted cost in the article - the LRTP estimates $215 Million....the $45 Million figure probably is the next project down on the table (MLK interchange @ 21st St)

4. Needs Plan vs. Cost Feasible Plan
Total needs were around $12 Billion ($9.3 in roads, $2.5 in transit)...Cost feasible Plan includes $4.4 Billion in roads (Outer Beltway = $1.8B), $721 Million in transit, and $56 Million for bicycle/pedestrian projects.

5. Roads vs. Transit
Generally, the Federal government funds transportation at an 82/18 split (roads to transit)...most communities follow this but are not much more aggressive....in the case of this LRTP, the public funds being expended are around $3.3 Billion...and the roads to transit ratio is 78/22....while the 4% increase in transit seems small, it is in fact exactly what the transit advocacy group, T4America, is recommending for the new federal transportation authorization bill.

6. Public Involvement
There were many chances for folks to comment on both the needs plan and the cost feasible plan...this site even ran articles and publicized the meeting dates....it is because of the diligence of the TPO, JTA, FDOT, consultants, and the public that the final plan includes a robust transit system.  

[tufsu1]

I think that $11 to $14 Million per mile price tage is a bit too much.................how about it Ock? Last that I remember figure wise we were talking about 6 to 7 million per mile or am I mis-remembering? We have had so many figures being spouted about that I am having a hard time trying to remember them all! I also have to question the "more" part too!

The LRTP estimate is based on a figure of $9 Million per mile for construction (similar to # Ock has given)....but there also must be environmental studies, design, and even some minimal ROW....those things increased the overall project costs.

[tufsu1]

THE GENERAL "PUBLIC",AND REGIONAL CONSERVATION/ENVIRONMENTAL COMMUNITY HAS BEEN ABSENT FROM CORE MPO DECISION MAKING PROCESS THAT HAS BEEN EXTENDED TO THEM.

Not at all true...in fact, members of the environmental community were included on the LRTP Steering/Stakeholers commitee....and every project was analyzed using the state's environmental screening tool.

[north miami]

NO-The enviro community has not been involved in key historical events.
The soon to emerge "Nocatee" was eviaps but 'missdent in obscure MPO future roadway maps but 'missed'.
The Northeast office of the Florida Wildlife Federation was created in attempy to become proactive-I know of what I speak- I was Vice Chair/FWF during the northeast office initiative.
The local enviros have been largely unaware and clue-les of beltway and related narrative.
Further,let's not grant the public and enviro community much credit-the

[north miami]

EXCUSE ME......SOMEONE HIT THE 'delete' BUTTON,MUMBLING SOMETHING ABOUT WASTED ENERGY

[tufsu1]

historical events, maybe...this LRTP (topic of the thread), not true

[Ocklawaha]

I think that $11 to $14 Million per mile price tage is a bit too much.................how about it Ock? Last that I remember figure wise we were talking about 6 to 7 million per mile or am I mis-remembering? We have had so many figures being spouted about that I am having a hard time trying to remember them all! I also have to question the "more" part too!

I would challenge JTA or the CITY to farm out the construction and operations to a non-profit "Traction Company." Allow volunteerism to slash the budget. Before somebody goes off about not getting any help in Jacksonville, let's remember that as the nations 5Th largest railroad center, we have THOUSANDS of guys retired, or not old enough to hold down a run, that would just LOVE to play trains. Dallas runs it's entire McKinney Avenue streetcar line with only one paid employee, and we could probably best them by several techie types and operators.

The greatest economy in going with all local dollars, is we can thumb our noses at many of the FTA regulations for new starts. For example, Tampa, Little Rock, Dallas, etc... all have chair lifts or small ramps with elevated platforms for wheelchair or handicapped passengers. But along comes the FTA with GW's anti-rail bias, and now we'd have to build European style high platforms at every station if we use their funds. So much for anything authentic or "New Orleans" cool.

So if we want an AUTHENTIC, REAL, revival of OUR OWN unique "Jacksonville Traction Company," then we self fund and build. Two years to operation is VERY MUCH a possible goal, even in Jacksonville. World Cup Games anyone? FIFA? Streetcars? Finished Skyway? Stadium Access via multimodal? BRT? Community circulators? You better believe if we land this fish we'll get the FTA and everybody Else's attention... BTW JACKSONVILLE, the WORLDS FAIR is also up for grabs in 10 years or so, and it's been everywhere but the USA for the last dozen or more.


A JAXSON IN DALLAS? MAYBE SO!

------------------------
TUSFU1, Thanks for the back up my friend, I've been drowned in the "liar pool" ever since I walked the system with a car load of contractors. You are of course right, RofW cost money and streetcars ALWAYS do better on their own RofW. Again it is something, thanks to our railroad heritage, that our city is blessed with. I have a car builder that is a friend and has told me he will build our heritage cars - the first two AT COST. Stone and Webster Turtlebacks Anyone? Dallas has 5 and in rebuilding a second one, they are willing to horse trade for $ or services. We have FEC, CSX, NS, WATCO SHOPS, and TTX... I'm sure we could find something they need... Also some of the Dallas Turtlebacks CAME FROM JACKSONVILLE! (More views? look em up in photo search).

OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

1. Streetcar
These are real and almost the entire system was funded

Tufsu, if this is "funded", is there a timetable for actual construction?  Is it phased or does it all get built at once?  Please elaborate.

2. Outer Beltway
Not included in federal, state, or local funds, only built if private entity does so...and tolls are a user fee....most who scream about taxes talk about government waste....tolls only get paid by those who use the road.

See my questions in various posts #19,34,and 35.  Do you have answers to any of these?  Anyone else?

3. Mathews Bridge
Seriously misquoted cost in the article - the LRTP estimates $215 Million....the $45 Million figure probably is the next project down on the table (MLK interchange @ 21st St)

Tufsu, thanks for the clarification.  As I noted, this didn't make any sense.  I wish reporters would be more careful with their numbers and double checking them.   Maybe they learned how to crunch numbers from JTA  .  No excuse for such a glaring error to get by.  Still unanswered, how do  the six lanes come to fruition?  Another span next to the existing?  Added to existing span?  New bridge altogether?  From the price, it would appear they just add on to the existing span.  Is that correct?

4. Needs Plan vs. Cost Feasible Plan
Total needs were around $12 Billion ($9.3 in roads, $2.5 in transit)...Cost feasible Plan includes $4.4 Billion in roads (Outer Beltway = $1.8B), $721 Million in transit, and $56 Million for bicycle/pedestrian projects.

So we go with almost 50% of the road projects and abut 30% of the transit projects (that's if I include the bike/pedestrian numbers)?  This is my point.  Even with "progress", we fall further behind while we build more roads to add to urban sprawl to put us even more behind.  Ugggghhh!

5. Roads vs. Transit
Generally, the Federal government funds transportation at an 82/18 split (roads to transit)...most communities follow this but are not much more aggressive....in the case of this LRTP, the public funds being expended are around $3.3 Billion...and the roads to transit ratio is 78/22....while the 4% increase in transit seems small, it is in fact exactly what the transit advocacy group, T4America, is recommending for the new federal transportation authorization bill.

Given our history, we need BIG steps, not small steps.  If we were "below average" before, at some point we need to make it up with being "above average".  This is progress, but at this rate, we won't "catch up" until the year  3000.  I was hoping more would happen during my lifetime and I don't think I will make it until then.  Can we get a bigger push?

6. Public Involvement
There were many chances for folks to comment on both the needs plan and the cost feasible plan...this site even ran articles and publicized the meeting dates....it is because of the diligence of the TPO, JTA, FDOT, consultants, and the public that the final plan includes a robust transit system.

I did go to their web site and "play" the transit decision making "game".  Funny, but my finalists came out different than the TPO's.  I was 100% mass transit and 0% Outer Beltway.  Where did I go wrong? 

Tufsu, out of curiosity, can you name names and tell us who within the TPO and outside the TPO pushed for the Outer Beltway? Who spoke up and said it was a bad project?  Did 9B get any further discussion regarding NOT building it?

[tufsu1]

ok...I'll try to answer these

1. Streetcar - timetable is not set in stone, but without significant local funds, construction probably could not commence before 2020....that said, there is potential that the City/JTA may be able to use other funding sources (like concurrency fees) to get it started sooner.

2. Outer Beltway - this of course is a multi-layer project....I'm not sure that a private entity is going to step up to do this, but I also doubt that the project will ever truly die if one doesn't come forward....land acquisition would be done by FDOT with the costs being passed on to the private entity....eminenet domain shouldn't be an issue given that the road will in fact be a lease w/ FDOT getting the facility after some time (I think its 75 years)....that said, the Supreme Court case (Kelo vs. New London) in fact held up the use of eminent domain for primarily private interests as long as the economic development "good" case can be proven.

3. The Mathews bridge is a tough nut to crack....the LRTP revenues are only for new capital projects...$215 million may not be enough....but bridge replacement funds (same ones being used for I-95 Overland Bridge) might be able to supplement. 

4. Math is misleading...take the Outer Beltway out of the equation and roads were funded at 35% of needs...plus one of the problems with the transit needs is it included commuter rail to Palatka, Palm Coast, and Maccleny....since these are outside the TPO area, they would never have been funded with our area's funds anyway...perhaps they shouldn't have been listd in the Needs Plan to start with.

As for naming names on the Outer Beltway or 9B, I can not....what I can tell you is that both project were discussed at some length...in the end, a decision was made to try and fund all of the TPO priority projects (which have remained constant for several years)....both projects are on this list.

Also note, as Wakeup said in an earlier post, that many of the road projects are on FDOT's Strategic Intermodal System (SIS)....these projects and costs came from Tallahassee and were considered a given....9B and the Outer beltway were on this list...bottom line, of the $4.4 Billion in roads, the TPO only really got to allocate about $1 Billion.