New transportation center planned for downtown Jacksonville

[ralpho37]

I think we just need to flood the city with emails or start a petition or something.  Sitting here whining about will do absolutely nothing.

[JeffreyS]

[mtraininjax]

Maybe the rents from related activities could pay some bills.

STJR - Take a look at retail around town, the "retail" associated with the courthouse parking lot has been vacant, for the most part, since they built the thing. A shoe shop, a diner, what more could you really add to the building to help it pay for the light bill?

No word if the building will be green, with LEED credits? Scary...

We're all putting the cart before the horse, the feds have 1400 requests for the money totalling 57 Billion, and they are only prepared to dole out 1.5 billion. So there will be a LOT of unhappy campers around their christmas trees.

I agree Lake, keep it simple, scrap the buildings, fix the transportation issue FIRST. Add other needs as money is available, but this is a TRANSPORTATION Solution and it should immediately solve transportation issues, not provide a new downtown box with new furnishings. We have plenty of empty space in other "historical" downtown space, if any of these entities care to move. We don't need new digs right now!

[thelakelander]

I think we just need to flood the city with emails or start a petition or something.  Sitting here whining about will do absolutely nothing.

Believe me, I have not been just sitting here whining.  In the last few months, I've met with Adam Hollingsworth, Micheal Blaylock and the JTA crew and Bill Killingsworth about it on separate occasions.  I'm just going to keep talking about it in hopes of something positive finally happening before its too late.

[stjr]

The first thing that strikes me is the HUGE failure to have an all-weather airport-style concourse with moving sidewalks and handicapped car pathway connecting ALL modes of transit from Amtrak to Greyhound running down JOHNSON STREET to minimize connectivity times and travel distance.  Connecting to the office building is not why this project is on the boards and should not dictate the location of the connecting concourse.

Also, where is the master plan for streetcar connectivity?  Taxi cabs?  Bikes?  Rental cars? A hotel?  Visitors bureau? I could add lots more things to put here.  And, as noted, this could be made much more compact with better planning and maybe use of multilayering (e.g. bus terminal under the $ky-high-way or below the Greyhound facility) rather than building outward.

Has JTA/FDOT ever heard of "brain storming", talking with users or potential users, going to see other facilities to find what works well and what doesn't?  Or, are they too "smart" for that?  This looks like a product of the usual bureaucratic process mixed with incestuous thinking with the same worthless consultants and JTA/FDOT "experts".  This "proven" method of operation is guaranteed to produce a result lacking in creativity, vision, inspiration, or full functionality and fulfillment of purpose.

This isn't being approached as an intermodal facility, but rather as separate functions that happen to be side by side.  And, the real driver is getting nice, new offices for all the bureaucrats, not serving the travelling public.  The architects, consultants, JTA, COJ, and FDOT clearly aren't up to this task.  As a result, for now, I withhold my support based on the current plans.  I hope the Feds don't do us another $ky-high-way style "favor" and fund this as it is currently proposed.

[ralpho37]

Lake, I am really glad to hear that.  I apologize if my earlier remark seemed insulting, but I just wanted to point out that our vision will not become reality unless we push this thing hard to the city.  I've been in some email battles with several city councilmen, but I feel that it will take a lot more than a few emails to get our point across.

[tufsu1]

^^that is the thinking that drives me nuts.......we need CHANGE! Take a look at the transportation center proposed in Anaheim, CA.....just a little creativity is all we need folks!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/08/architecture-review-anaheims-proposed-artic-rail-hub.html

Nice find.  That's a pretty good looking and compact facility.

just don't ask what the pricetag is

[brainstormer]

tufsu, 180 million is nothing.  Just think, we could have built a vertical skyscraper courthouse with non-luxurious features for 200 million and used the extra 180 million to build an amazing, tourist attraction/transit station.  We could have had 2 for the price of one!  Instead we got Peyton/Moran crap and JTA crap that doesn't even exist yet, for the same price.

Brilliant City of Jacksonville, just brilliant.  

[JeffreyS]

PLAN DETAILS

Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center

Phase 1

-- Stations for bus rapid transit

-- Greyhound station

-- 200 parking spaces

-- 8,000 square-feet of retail space on Johnson and Forsyth streets.

-- Public plaza facing Johnson Street.

-- Four-story, 60,000 square-foot building housing most regional transportation officials.

Future phases would include:

-- Amtrak station that could incorporate future commuter rail and high-speed rail.

-- Renovation of Prime Osborn Convention Center to make it part of the Amtrak station when conventions aren't occurring.

-- Elevated, 2,000-space parking garage.

Source: Jacksonville Transportation Authority

[stjr]

BRT and the $ky-high-way on the same block!  That says it all  Need I say more?

Separately, let's do a little virtualization of the future concept.  A commuter train arrives, deposits 300 (a low number for a train) downtown workers at Prime Osborn.  These 300 commuters then walk north the equivalent of a block and a half from the train and through the terminal.  Because JTA workers selfishly want to walk out their office door to play with their expensive toys, commuters must then walk west for another block down the side of the convention center to the "JTA office concourse".  From there, they must again walk north across the street for another half block to the $ky-high-way station.  I count that as a three block walk just to TRANSFER.

And, now for some more fun.  The 300 riders crowd the undersized $ky-high-way platform waiting for the under capacity $ky-high-way to show up every 15 minutes, if they are lucky.  Maybe, after 45 minutes, or more, all 300 have caught a ride "into town".  But wait!  During that 45 minutes or more, another commuter train arrived from the opposite side of town at the Amtrak station and dropped another 300 riders off.  Finally, by mid-afternoon, the $ky-high-way has caught up with the train loads of commuters. This was such a "success", we will repeat the process in reverse in the late afternoon.

Soooo...the question is, how many people are projected to arrive at various intervals on high-capacity commuter trains and how will the low capacity $ky-high-way ever be able to keep up?  And, who will walk three blocks just for an intermodal transfer?    And, we still haven't addressed the $ky-high-way's evil twin, the BRT, and it's added traffic load on the $ky-high-way.  Or is JTA figuring no one is going to ride any of this stuff anyway, so who cares about matching capacities.  The way JTA runs and designs things for failure, they may be right.

[JeffreyS]

Remember the skyway trams do not have to in the 2 car config they are now. You can link. More to handle big rushes.

[stjr]

Remember the skyway trams do not have to in the 2 car config they are now. You can link. More to handle big rushes.

I understand.  Even so, no $ky-high-way "train" is going to come anywhere close to matching the capacity of a commuter train.  And, don't forget the buses.  Problem still unsolved.  Try again.

[CS Foltz]

I am still confused as to how someone thinks the "Public Servants" will want to walk 3 blocks and transfer multiple times. Skyway on time and with more cars (Gee we thought $14 Million for something going nowhere with no one was expensive?)BRT in operation.......makes me wonder just where JTA is gonna get the money for those bus's (Oh I know......Mayor Johnny is going to initiate a new Transportation "FEE"!) Something is wrong here....supposedly we are trying to improve downtown......to attract homeowners, business's, make over the downtown to something that is user friendly and pretty to boot. Instead of going up, this proposal is going out by taking over about a three block area! I say we throw whoever's idea this was  out the window! Not efficient, not pretty and not cost effective! Real estate is too valuable to waste.....they should be considering up not out! I try to think outside of the box, but this is bureaucracy at its best .......Gate Precast will be working hard! If this is the best they can come up with, we need some more AIMO's cause the old ones are getting stale!

[thelakelander]

Remember the skyway trams do not have to in the 2 car config they are now. You can link. More to handle big rushes.

I understand.  Even so, no $ky-high-way "train" is going to come anywhere close to matching the capacity of a commuter train.  And, don't forget the buses.  Problem still unsolved.  Try again.

The way it looks, we'll have two transportation centers.  A bus/skyway/greyhound complex and an Amtrak/commuter rail/streetcar complex a three block walk away.   A good percentage of those commuter rail riders will probably hop on the adjacent streetcar line, running down Park and Water Streets instead of making the three block transfer.

[tufsu1]

To be fair Lake, its more like a 2 block walk.

An for those who think the Anaheim station is much more compact, take a look at the sketches....the entire complex from end to end looks to be over 1000' long (look at the baseball stadium in the background)....and the train station grand lobby looks larger than grand Central Station in NYC which is 2 blocks long!

Finally, not that I think the JRTC layout is great....but how far do most of us walk in a large airport.....I mean eah concourse in Atlanta is like 1/3 mile long end to end!