Bus Shelter Advertising Debate headed to City Council

[tufsu1]

Maybe JTA should contract w/ this guy

http://www.thedesignblog.org/entry/decomposed-school-buses-resurrected-for-bus-shelter/

[JeffreyS]

I like it.

[CS Foltz]

I don't believe that JTA has ever requested bids .......atleast not from an advertisement in the TU! Infact City Hall likes that tactic.....they don't use the TU all the time, they have a habit of using the Legal Gazette or whatever the hell the Lawyers Weekly is called!

[Charles Hunter]

Requested bids for what?  I would imagine the TU has a set ad rate, and if JTA wants to reach those readers, the get to pay the TU rate.  I also imagine that if they (or any advertiser) buys a lot of space, they get a discount.

Oh, wait, are you saying JTA does not bid out the things they buy?  I think, as a condition of the Federal funds they get, they have to bid.  You are probably right, that most of the ads aren't in the TU - not a whole lot of bus builders who read the TU.

[stjr]

Well, we can rehash this whole debate again or people can go back and read this and the other 2 or 3 threads already existing on this subject.

JTA has the money, they just chose to spend it otherwise.  Look at their benefits/pensions of 50% of payroll and the subsidy of $20,000 per rider per year (total of about $14 million) they waste on the $ky-high-way.  They manage to find all the money they need for these things without yelling and screaming.

And, if they can get Fed funds for buses and roads, they probably could scrounge some up for shelters. After all, that's part of running a viable bus system.  I bet the Feds paid for the $ky-high-way stations, not just the track, because one is needed to support the other.  Likewise, with shelters.  But, you know, you don't get if you don't ask.

As to advertising dollars being predictable revenue streams, go ask newspapers, TV, radio, and sport promoters how reliable advertising dollars are today.  Sorry, there are no guarantees in life.

By the way, I have yet to see an article quoting JTA about exactly what kind of revenue bus shelter ads will provide to accomplish their goals.  It would appear it would take at least $150 to $200 or more dollars per MONTH per SHELTER to cover maintenance, depreciation, financing, and administration using $1,200 maintenance per year per shelter and $4,000+ per new shelter.  And, that's an "el cheapo" shelter.  (JTA has said better ones can cost north of $12,000.  What are we looking for?).  So, as an advertiser, are you willing to pay that rate or better for a shelter on the corner of Moncrief that mainly is seen by the same few dozen bus riders at a given stop all year long?  Or, likely, even less riders at a stop on San Jose in Mandarin? What's the ad market like for that?

[CS Foltz]

stjr you have stumbled on something that I have asked about several times! tufsu1 seems to have all of the answers but he has yet to come out with that one.......what I had asked was simple - How much revenue does the advertising generate from the bus emblazoned ads and the shelters? How much of the public responds to both advertising venues, I mean who has called on a business due to the add they saw on a bus? Somehow both ,from what I see, only generate income for the "Advertising Company" who charge more for the service than what that form of advertising brings in customerwise! The only person making out in that situation is Clear Channel or Lamar or whoever is in the Advertising game.......and it is just one more shell game for sure! JTA could and should come up with the money for more shelters, it should not be "Riders taking up a collection" in order to have some protection from the elements............no shelters equals no riders.....which is better?

[tufsu1]

CS....ad companies don't charge JTA to put stuff on buses....they pay JTA...So, regardless of whether anyone looks at the ads or not, it is a pretty good deal for JTA

And this is a perfect example of a public/private partnership, which people seem to be clamoring for.....if you don't like it, please offer another revenue stream...and if its taking money from somewhere else (like new buses), explain how that effort would be funded.

[stjr]

..So, regardless of whether anyone looks at the ads or not, it is a pretty good deal for JTA

Tufsu, you must not have run a business.  Businesses want results for their money.  They aren't going to buy these ads if they can spend the money elsewhere with far better results.  You and JTA are not answering the questions asked.  How does the revenue brought in from ads match up with the expenses of building and maintaining the shelters?  For all we know, this could just be a JTA pipe dream.  "Show us the money!"

And this is a perfect example of a public/private partnership, which people seem to be clamoring for.....if you don't like it, please offer another revenue stream...and if its taking money from somewhere else (like new buses), explain how that effort would be funded.

If it was a perfect example of public/private, we wouldn't have the level of opposition we are seeing.  It's only "perfect" in the minds of certain beholders such as yourself.

As to alternative funding, again you and others are dancing around the obvious sources I highlighted above.

Further, all the funding sources available for mass transit system  should also cover bus shelters.  Why?  Because bus shelters should be viewed as an integral component of a bus transit system, just like railroad stations, terminals, the $ky-high-way stations, etc.  It's just plain stupid, a red herring, and maybe discriminatory, that bus shelters are treated differently than other transit infrastructure.

JTA isn't shooting straight with us.  Starting with the fallacious bus stop and maintenance numbers and relying on an attorney with a conflict of interest to disregard outside experts about billboard issues.  And, continuing on with the above.  The number of gullible and unquestioning public officials we have is why Jax can't ever dig out of some of these holes.

[CS Foltz]

tufsu1 .....whether or not someone pays JTA to put their ad's on any bus is immaterial! Of course JTA will take their money ....it's free money for JTA!! Which does not answer my question of "How much money does JTA receive for letting anyone place an Ad for anything on a bus that we own?" Also like stjr has stated, bus shelters should be an integral part of a bus transportation system.........so why must that be an additional charge or separate funding? Now you want a revenue source to pay for shelters and the maintenance there off.........how about charging the riders double what they are charged now.....One dollar to ride and One dollar to pay for a bus stop? I mean there is no such thing as a free ride for anyone even though COJ does subsidize JTA right? I mean I seem to remember something about the Budget for JTA being passed without review or discussion and that was the operating budget that they asked for right? How come there was no money for shelters in the Budget? New bus's yeah.......new roads oh yeah but shelters..............these people are professionals huh? Makes me wonder just how many AIMO's are running that organization.

[tufsu1]

1. JTA's budget does include money for shelters....but only enough for 10-20 per year

2. JTA, as currently constructed, primarily serves those people who have few other transprtation options...I'm thinking an increase to $2 per trip might put quite a burden for those on fixed incomes.

Maybe we should hire you to run JTA...it sounds like you'd be willing to do it for around $50,000....that would save some money for shelters.

[urbanlibertarian]

Bus shelters paid for by the advertising are a win-win-lose (win for bus riders, win for advertisers and lose for people offended by advertising). 2 outta 3 aint bad.

[CS Foltz]

You did ask for a revenue source right? Mayor Johnny has no qualm about "Feeing" the public  in an effort to balance the books.............why did you not question that? To me there is no difference between the two situations........JTA's Budget was passed without comment or discussion..........if there are, as you say, 10 to 20 shelters per year then they have the money for that many.......which by the way I have to ask......where are those shelters being built? I have never  seen any new ones going in any where and I used to travel quite abit all around town due to the work I did at that time. I was forcibly retired and would not consider running JTA since $50K a year is too much for an Agency which appears lost and has no plan. I mean bus's, with no shelters and having Ad's to pay for the shelters.......you still did not say anything about "How much money does the Advertising bring to JTA for free"? You sure your not a politician.....skirting around a direct question shows me you have talent.......planning on running for Mayor?

[civil42806]

16 year old girls

[fsu813]

Plan to build bus shelters with advertising in Jacksonville moves forward

Despite a previous pledge to consult with critics of their plan beforehand, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority is getting ready to move forward on its own with a plan to build bus shelters with commercial advertisements.

In October, the City Council amended its sign law to allow JTA to build bus shelters with advertisements. Several vocal opponents objected, worried that the legislation would allow sign companies to challenge the validity of the entire city sign law.

JTA and the city's general counsel's office said that wouldn't happen, and JTA agreed to meet with critics and hold off on hiring a sign company that would build and maintain shelters.

Now JTA's critics say it hasn't really engaged them and question how sincere it is about finding common ground.

City Councilman John Crescimbeni, who opposed amending the sign law, said he has not heard from JTA for months, even though he has tried to schedule meetings.

"I should have realized when JTA said they'd talk to us it was all just lip service," he said.

JTA says the discussion on advertising can continue but it must move forward.

"Every time I attend a public meeting people ask me when we're going to get more bus shelters in town," Executive Director Michael Blaylock said. "We can't wait any longer because the public really wants this to happen."

Blaylock said JTA's board will be asked to approve a request for proposal at its Jan. 28 meeting that will ask sign companies to submit bids to build and maintain the shelters. The first ones could be built by summer.

The only way he'll delay is if there's a definitive plan in place this month for how shelters will be built and maintained without ads, Blaylock said.

There are now shelters at about 350 of the 3,300 bus stops in Jacksonville. JTA builds about 20 a year but doesn't have the money to build and maintain more. With advertising, JTA says it could build about 80 a year.

JTA board member Cleve Warren, the point person on this issue, said he's been getting information from JTA staff before meeting with critics. He didn't view Jan. 28 as an end-of-discussion day.

"All we're doing on that day is approving a request for proposal," he said. "We can cancel it later."

Attorney William Brinton, who has advocated for the removal of billboards in Jacksonville for 20 years, expressed frustration at the pace of discussions. He met with JTA in November but has been waiting for it to provide information on the cost of maintaining shelters, and it hasn't come yet.

"I was expecting to be much further along in these discussions by now," Brinton said.

Warren believes JTA can build bus shelters on its own on major roadways like Beach, Atlantic and Normandy boulevards by getting grants and using JTA money. The cost of building a shelter is between $4,000 and $12,000, depending on the type and location.

The challenge is finding a way to maintain shelters after they're built. Warren estimates it will cost about $800 a year to maintain each shelter, including trash pickup, repairs to the structure, landscaping and repairs after vandalism occurs.

That means JTA pays about $280,000 now to maintain its existing shelters. Adding 80 new shelters per year would increase that cost by $64,000.

"One of the reasons hiring a sign company is attractive is that they would be committing to pay for the maintenance," Warren said. "The other side needs to come up with a way to do that if we're not going to have signs."

Tracey Arpen, a former city attorney who defended the sign law in court, said it's possible to designate some of the money collected from code enforcement violations like littering and illegal signs in the right-of-way to go toward shelter maintenance since those violations would impact the bus shelters.

But it's hard to make a specific proposal, Arpen said, until JTA shares the data on what the maintenance money is needed for maintaining the shelters.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-01-11/story/plan_to_build_bus_shelters_with_advertising_in_jacksonville_moves_forwar

[fsu813]

"Every time I attend a public meeting people ask me when we're going to get more bus shelters in town," Executive Director Michael Blaylock said. "We can't wait any longer because the public really wants this to happen."

- i'm sure he's bombarded with questions from the bus riding public at every meeting he attends.