What makes JIA international?

[DetroitInJAX]

Really it's pretty damn sad that we don't even rate a single COPA, or TRANS BRASIL, flight in and out daily. These two airlines, especially COPA, hubed in the "REAL" Panama City, Panama, is like the Latin American version of Southwest. Their hub is simply huge, they fly mostly 737's which are smaller jet airliners of around 120 passengers, depending on configuration. They must have 10,000 flights, hell I think you can get to almost anywhere on COPA, with a change in Panama. EASY and CHEAP... and they STILL FEED YOU! Canada would be... uh... "Cool". Okay, bad joke!

Colombia, and some EU countrys have OPEN SKYS with the USA, so the door is there, we just have to push through it.

OCKLAWAHA

Sorry to burst your bubble but TransBrasil ceased operations in 2001 and COPA is nothing like Southwest.  Via direct foreign investment in the airline by Continental they are a mirror image of said airline.  Continental has since sold its stake in the carrier but COPA still paints their aircraft very similarly and the service as well as aircraft interiors are identical to their ex-full service mother.  The facility that COPA operates out of at PTY is brand new and has roughly 25 gates, they arent nearly as large as you make them out to be.

There is not enough demand between JAX and any particular international city.  Quite a few Caribbean destinations get plenty of passengers per day (Nassau, Montego Bay/Kingston, St. Kitts, Santo Domingo, and the US territories (USVI, Puerto Rico), but not one single place gets enough flights to warrant a nonstop aircraft.  American, for example, can just as efficiently route passengers though their superhub at Miami and onwards to points south.  Jacksonville on its own simply does not have a sufficient O&D market for these flights, and we definitely dont have the connecting traffic.  This city is not considered a hub, but rather a spoke, connected to some very large hubs in the immediate area (Miami, Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, Dallas/Ft. Worth)...

[stjr]

If I had to bet on JIA's first scheduled international flight, I would pick Nassau, Bahamas (beaches, fishing, and, most importantly, casino's including sports betting).  Runner-ups would be Toronto (lots of Canadians visit Jax-Daytona in the winter!) or London (a Jax European fave - they speak English there! - and gateway to Europe).  One day, Havanna might be in the running as Jax could be the biggest port shipping there, as in the 1950's, when it reopens.  Also, like Nassau, beaches, outdoors, and, maybe casinos again.

[Ocklawaha]

Sorry to burst your bubble but TransBrasil ceased operations in 2001 and COPA is nothing like Southwest.  Via direct foreign investment in the airline by Continental they are a mirror image of said airline.  Continental has since sold its stake in the carrier but COPA still paints their aircraft very similarly and the service as well as aircraft interiors are identical to their ex-full service mother.  The facility that COPA operates out of at PTY is brand new and has roughly 25 gates, they arent nearly as large as you make them out to be.

My bad, TransBrasil merged into TAM, as usual with government help. Still a splended airline, regardless of what ever they call it this week, and probably still "TransBrasil," as far as my friends across the border from Colombia, and I are concerned. Trust me folks, NOBODY could forget those paint jobs.

As for COPA, they may have 25 or 105 gates at PTY, but the airport is a shopping mall quite unlike any I have seen between North and South America. With carry on luggage, and the fact that it's laid out in a LONG concourse, also packed with international shoppers... Well it's a hell of a place to have to run through on a tight connection. They remind me very much like Piedmont, in its hub and spokes prime, with equipment rather Southwest like.
http://www.tam.com.br/b2c/jsp/ListaPaisesB2CInternacional.jhtml?vgnextoid=2e4fbde8a803a110VgnVCM1000005f05a8c0RCRD&sessionExpired=true

There is not enough demand between JAX and any particular international city.  Quite a few Caribbean destinations get plenty of passengers per day (Nassau, Montego Bay/Kingston, St. Kitts, Santo Domingo, and the US territories (USVI, Puerto Rico), but not one single place gets enough flights to warrant a nonstop aircraft.  American, for example, can just as efficiently route passengers though their superhub at Miami and onwards to points south.  Jacksonville on its own simply does not have a sufficient O&D market for these flights, and we definitely dont have the connecting traffic.  This city is not considered a hub, but rather a spoke, connected to some very large hubs in the immediate area (Miami, Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, Dallas/Ft. Worth)...

I don't buy the lack of demand argument anymore, at one time, yes, but today, no. I do agree with you that any such flight should go directly to a major hub, Tocumen International, PTY, is one of the best. The other way it would be successful here is to have a terminator at JAX. Fly out in the AM, into ATL, or MIA, then non-stop for where ever. In the late PM as the last flights come into JIA, the plane and crew tie up here. A basic one stop service, which would allow any company to play with city pairs and monitor boardings.

In any case avoiding Latin America would be a HUGE mistake, it is the fastest growing segment of the US population and rapidly overtaking our Northern European populus. The African American population often figures into the Latin numbers as Centurys of intermariage is slowly blending the people. In 1985, one would occasionally hear Spanish spoken in stores in Deltona, and west Volusia. South in Kissimmee there was a small Latin Community. Today the languages have reversed and one will find as many Spanish speakers as English in either location. So what is Jacksonville going to do? Shall we dust off the Axe Handles, build a wall, or join the rest of the America's. It's our move.
OCKLAWAHA
(Boy, wonder who I pissed off...now?)

[Dog Walker]

I have always wondered why Tampa wasn't a departure point for Monterrey or DF, Mexico.  Jax/Tampa to Dallas to either is two sides of a square.

Having Miami as a jumping off point for all of Central America and most of L.A. is a PAIN!

[Ocklawaha]

As for us "Never being a hub..." BULL SHIT! National was OUR airline.


Little COPA mentioned earlier in the thread.


Stephendare, hey old friend, sure wish I understood this damn transportation industry!

You might have hit on something Dog Walker, bigger then any of us realize. When Tampa and Jacksonville were the only big dogs outside of South Florida, Tampa, beat the hell out of us with their new Super Airport. Orlando at that time was COMPLETELY within a block long all metal round roof building and still using "air stairs". Then of course Disney not only opened but sought and obtained Incorporated City Status, so what happens in Disney, STAYS IN DISNEY! Orlando, got grants and mouse money to build their huge terminal and Tampa, lost it's shine.

WHAT IF? What if JAX and TPA were on the same team for international flights? JAX-TPA-PTY (Panama), or TPA-JAX-LHR (London), we could be instrumental in setting up an air corridor, if the two cities worked together to get everything in place, infrastructure, staff, etc... Then go on a World Marketing Tour.

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Not a bad idea there Ock!

[DetroitInJAX]

Sorry to burst your bubble but TransBrasil ceased operations in 2001 and COPA is nothing like Southwest.  Via direct foreign investment in the airline by Continental they are a mirror image of said airline.  Continental has since sold its stake in the carrier but COPA still paints their aircraft very similarly and the service as well as aircraft interiors are identical to their ex-full service mother.  The facility that COPA operates out of at PTY is brand new and has roughly 25 gates, they arent nearly as large as you make them out to be.

My bad, TransBrasil merged into TAM, as usual with government help. Still a splended airline, regardless of what ever they call it this week, and probably still "TransBrasil," as far as my friends across the border from Colombia, and I are concerned. Trust me folks, NOBODY could forget those paint jobs.

As for COPA, they may have 25 or 105 gates at PTY, but the airport is a shopping mall quite unlike any I have seen between North and South America. With carry on luggage, and the fact that it's laid out in a LONG concourse, also packed with international shoppers... Well it's a hell of a place to have to run through on a tight connection. They remind me very much like Piedmont, in its hub and spokes prime, with equipment rather Southwest like.
http://www.tam.com.br/b2c/jsp/ListaPaisesB2CInternacional.jhtml?vgnextoid=2e4fbde8a803a110VgnVCM1000005f05a8c0RCRD&sessionExpired=true

There is not enough demand between JAX and any particular international city.  Quite a few Caribbean destinations get plenty of passengers per day (Nassau, Montego Bay/Kingston, St. Kitts, Santo Domingo, and the US territories (USVI, Puerto Rico), but not one single place gets enough flights to warrant a nonstop aircraft.  American, for example, can just as efficiently route passengers though their superhub at Miami and onwards to points south.  Jacksonville on its own simply does not have a sufficient O&D market for these flights, and we definitely dont have the connecting traffic.  This city is not considered a hub, but rather a spoke, connected to some very large hubs in the immediate area (Miami, Atlanta, Charlotte, Houston, Dallas/Ft. Worth)...

I don't buy the lack of demand argument anymore, at one time, yes, but today, no. I do agree with you that any such flight should go directly to a major hub, Tocumen International, PTY, is one of the best. The other way it would be successful here is to have a terminator at JAX. Fly out in the AM, into ATL, or MIA, then non-stop for where ever. In the late PM as the last flights come into JIA, the plane and crew tie up here. A basic one stop service, which would allow any company to play with city pairs and monitor boardings.

In any case avoiding Latin America would be a HUGE mistake, it is the fastest growing segment of the US population and rapidly overtaking our Northern European populus. The African American population often figures into the Latin numbers as Centurys of intermariage is slowly blending the people. In 1985, one would occasionally hear Spanish spoken in stores in Deltona, and west Volusia. South in Kissimmee there was a small Latin Community. Today the languages have reversed and one will find as many Spanish speakers as English in either location. So what is Jacksonville going to do? Shall we dust off the Axe Handles, build a wall, or join the rest of the America's. It's our move.
OCKLAWAHA
(Boy, wonder who I pissed off...now?)

Allow me to address a few points... 1) There wont be a JAX-MIA-PTY operated by COPA or anything like that, ever, because you seem to be forgetting about these things called alliances.  COPA would rather fly to Houston where Continental can easily and reliably feed its southbound flights.  Now that COPA and Continental are part of the Star Alliance, COPA would rather leave the bulk of the US flying to US Airways, Continental, and United then take the risk themselves.. After all, just codeshare it and the passenger can seamlessly fly JAX-IAH-PTY, through checking baggage, getting boarding passes, and even accruing frequent flyer miles in one account.  Why would COPA take the risk to throw an airplane into an unproven underdeveloped market like JAX?  I work for a carrier at JAX, and the amount of southbound flow we push into Latin America is NOT enough to fill planes to specific destinations.  3x 64 seater ATRs plus 1x 44 seater ERJ-145 to Miami and probably half of that traffic goes southbound from there, but to 25 different destinations from MIA.  Just because PTY is a nice airport and COPA will put 150 seats a day in the market doesnt mean they will sell... Empty airplane spells disaster.

National may have started here way back when you were a young whipper snapper (great nostalgia), but they hubbed at Miami, not JAX, for a reason.

[jsjax37]

Actually, JAX briefly had scheduled service to Toronto via Air Canada for a very short while earlier in the decade.  The demand just wasn't there.  IIRC, they started out with a MD-80 aircraft and eventually worked their way down to a 50 seat regional jet, but the demand just wasn't there.

[civil42806]

As for us "Never being a hub..." BULL SHIT! National was OUR airline.


Little COPA mentioned earlier in the thread.


Stephendare, hey old friend, sure wish I understood this damn transportation industry!

You might have hit on something Dog Walker, bigger then any of us realize. When Tampa and Jacksonville were the only big dogs outside of South Florida, Tampa, beat the hell out of us with their new Super Airport. Orlando at that time was COMPLETELY within a block long all metal round roof building and still using "air stairs". Then of course Disney not only opened but sought and obtained Incorporated City Status, so what happens in Disney, STAYS IN DISNEY! Orlando, got grants and mouse money to build their huge terminal and Tampa, lost it's shine.

WHAT IF? What if JAX and TPA were on the same team for international flights? JAX-TPA-PTY (Panama), or TPA-JAX-LHR (London), we could be instrumental in setting up an air corridor, if the two cities worked together to get everything in place, infrastructure, staff, etc... Then go on a World Marketing Tour.

OCKLAWAHA

Not a lot of folks remember National airlines.  Check the wikipedia article about them pretty interesting.  Never can forget the National airlines plane that crashed in pensacola harbor.  First thing done the next day was a crew painting over the tail symbol.  Only thing above water

[CS Foltz]

Oh I remember that incident! I was one of the first responders in a 17ft Boston whaler, CG 41322 beat me there but that's because I was off duty and at home when I got the phone call! Good thing that 737 set down where it did because if it had been airborne another mile, it would have run right into the bluffs below Scenic Highway and no one would have survived. If I remember correctly, crew had low altitude warning system off and the ship basically flew into the water! One fatality on exiting aircraft..........balance of pob were removed by a coal barge heading for Crist Steam Plant who heard the aircraft hit the water. I picked up one survivor and several more were picked up by USCG boats on scene. Captain of barge had no way to communicate he had survivors onboard so all involved used worst case scenario, all were in the water. Took 10 hrs to confirm passangers were safe and dry. Aircraft was "railed" out once it was put on recovery barge and taken to old seaplane base at NAS Pensacola and disassembled for transport. Never heard just what happened to the bird after that but was likely decomm'd and scrapped!

[Dog Walker]

IMHO, and from my experience, the Tampa Airport is the best designed airport in the country and Dallas/Ft. Worth is the worst. 

Just for kicks at the Tampa airport, I once counted my steps from my car to my airplane seat and came up with less than two hundred.  Why more places haven't copied the design is a mystery.

[stjr]

IMHO, and from my experience, the Tampa Airport is the best designed airport in the country and Dallas/Ft. Worth is the worst. 

Just for kicks at the Tampa airport, I once counted my steps from my car to my airplane seat and came up with less than two hundred.  Why more places haven't copied the design is a mystery.

Here is an irony:  The Tampa airport was designed by the Jacksonville firm of Reynolds Smith & Hills (RS&H).  The same firm designed JIA.  The difference was the client.  Tampa asked for and paid for a world class, visionary product.  Jax, as usual, showed little vision and went on the cheap.  We didn't even pay for two way escalators!  The tale of two cities commenced.  You be the judge of who benefitted most from their airport.

RS&H has long been recognized as a strong aviation architectural and engineering firm.  The heritage of the firm dates back to the Tampa International Airport's revolutionary terminal, which continues to win top industry awards thereby demonstrating the test of time, and which is an airport RS&H continues to serve.

http://www.rsandh.com/aviation_sg_terminal.asp

[stjr]

If I had to bet on JIA's first scheduled international flight, I would pick Nassau, Bahamas (beaches, fishing, and, most importantly, casino's including sports betting).  Runner-ups would be Toronto (lots of Canadians visit Jax-Daytona in the winter!) or London (a Jax European fave - they speak English there! - and gateway to Europe).  One day, Havanna might be in the running as Jax could be the biggest port shipping there, as in the 1950's, when it reopens.  Also, like Nassau, beaches, outdoors, and, maybe casinos again.

By the way, another irony is that British Airways has their U.S. reservation center in Jax off JTB.  Yet, they have no flights here.  Maybe they would like to fix that but from what I have read, BA isn't doing too hot right now.

[Ocklawaha]

stjr, I couldn't agree more with your summations of JAX and TPA, as well as RS&H, which BTW has designed a bunch of nice airports. JAX isn't very expandable, and as built, it had very short runways. I was told at City Hall that BA was going to start a nonstop, London-Jax-Tpa flight, and somehow, JAA or COJ balked at the idea... Don't know if it's true, but it sucks. We will never grow beyond what we have, unless we take some risks, and that might involve promoting ourselves or offering some sweet deal to some growing carrier.


We WERE the hub... but it was before my time...


Miami wasn't our equal until 1947...

BTW DetroitinJax, I started this crazy transportation journey working at JIA, over the years at PI, UA, CO as well as some moonlighting for Dobbs and Emery. Dobbs never paid us much, but the kitchen ALWAYS served a fantastic breakfast, and I was in charge of stocking the booze on the planes... such a deal.

OCKLAWAHA

[mtraininjax]

No airline is doing too hot right now, with consolidation in the market, look for more companies to look to merge to survive. JAA is in hunker down mode, trying to cut costs and look for the business traveler to return. I think they are going to see further decrease of traffic in the holiday season.