John Mica Calls Florida's High Speed Rail Application a "Dog"

[FayeforCure]

John Mica is the Real Dog

Though I would never say that,.......... Mica's own word choice does have a real history of occasionally colorful language use, dispersed in his otherwise boring and monotonous statements.

At one point he crudely called welfare recipients aligators 

Must have a thing for or against animals 

I wonder how he feels now with our 11% unemployment rate.

[CS Foltz]

Gentlemen & Lady..........I keep coming back to using what we have in place now as in right this very minute! I don't have a problem adding something that enhances what is already there but gosh darn it........We got track right now and it is not used to the fullest by any account!Got no problem with Orlando getting something that is not there right now.......but I keep coming back to "what could $2.5 billion dollars do to enhance what is here now"? I believe it is called prioritizing and I don't see that taking place much at all!

[thelakelander]

With rail we have been the biggest collection of dumb asses ever to approach a track. See I can be a spokesman for HSR! IDIOTS! Our track record is horrible, take a look:

Miami Tri-Rail, 5 million riders a year, one of the lowest figures in the nation, in one of the hottest markets. The reason is pretty obvious, you can't serve the West Palm - Miami, market by skirting the Everglades. That track is former Seaboard which didn't arrive in Miami until Jan. 8, 1927. By that time the roaring twenty's and the Great Florida Boom had shut them out of anything like a urban core route. Meanwhile the Florida East Coast RY had been doing business and building cities along that corridor since April 1896. So in today's urban setting, guess which route FDOT chose to build upon?

I hate to bother you with figures, but at 5 million riders a year, that's almost 14,000 riders per day and is considered a huge success, look at this headline:

Posted January 5, 2009

TRI-RAIL SETS NEW RIDERSHIP RECORDS IN 2008

Ironically, you and the other MJ folks are fans of the Central Florida Commuter Rail that is projected to have minimal ridership,........... an embarrassingly low ridership of just 3,500 daily riders.

But to be totally fair we also need to compare the miles on each: 61 miles for the Central Florida Commuter Rail vs 75 miles for the Tri-Rail line, so the Tri-Rail isn't significantly longer to capture more riders that way.

Hmmmm, as Ock would say: "I smell a rat"

Being front of the line is a good thing for Florida, especially since we are in dire need of jobs, although I whole-heartedly agree with tufsu1's condensed summary:

Let me help you all with this....intercity rail of any form will do just fine in Florida if we don't widen the interstates between our cities beyond six lanes!

I think most here are in favor of an Amtrak corridor service over HSR and Sunrail (I know I am), but I'll bite.  Did Tri-Rail start of at this number in 1987?  Or is this after over 20 years of operation, a connection with other local rail systems and a region twice the size of Orlando and a couple times denser?  Just trying to put things in the proper perspective.

Anyway, I think South Florida has finally embraced mass transit now that they are at buildout stage and Tri-Rail, Metrorail and the Metromover are all benefitting from that (all struggled in their early years).  Hopefully, if the Amtrak/FEC thing works out, they can find a way to provide service along the denser FEC corridor.

[Ocklawaha]

With rail we have been the biggest collection of dumb asses ever to approach a track. See I can be a spokesman for HSR! IDIOTS! Our track record is horrible, take a look:

Miami Tri-Rail, 5 million riders a year, one of the lowest figures in the nation, in one of the hottest markets. The reason is pretty obvious, you can't serve the West Palm - Miami, market by skirting the Everglades. That track is former Seaboard which didn't arrive in Miami until Jan. 8, 1927. By that time the roaring twenty's and the Great Florida Boom had shut them out of anything like a urban core route. Meanwhile the Florida East Coast RY had been doing business and building cities along that corridor since April 1896. So in today's urban setting, guess which route FDOT chose to build upon?

I hate to bother you with figures, but at 5 million riders a year, that's almost 14,000 riders per day and is considered a huge success, look at this headline:

Posted January 5, 2009

TRI-RAIL SETS NEW RIDERSHIP RECORDS IN 2008

Does this mean you didn't think all of the other systems reached ridership peaks during the most recent gasoline price hikes? Even our humble JTA set new records, but apples to apples, or to Oranges,  Miami's Tri-Rail is a non-performer. The fact is it was built on the WRONG RAILROAD LINE, had they built it on the FEC, in the first place, which is the newly hatched corridor Jeffery, is so correct about, we might be leading the national numbers. 

You want to be one of our public servants, but like much of the rest of Florida, you'll support any project that brings in "free money," (please recall that much of that is out of our pockets) and gives us another flashy new rail system built on the WRONG SPOT. I realize with so much promo going on anybody could get on here and post endless copy's of glowing articles, but that doesn't make them right. We already have a rail system, and we don't need to reinvent the wheel until we prove that we can move people from Tampa to Brooksville, Orlando to Tavares, Jacksonville to St. Augustine, but we haven't paid any attention to this. We have years of rail neglect, and frankly if Obama, you or anyone else pushes this train through because "It's cool, just like Denmark...etc..." We'll be wishing we had never seen a train.

I know you hate the details, but in a scattered review of national numbers, rate TRI-RAIL. Here are a few facts for you to consider:

CRT= Commuter Rail, LRT= Light Rail Transit, HRT= Heavy Rail Transit (some mile figures are track miles)

Tri-Rail South Florida, CRT: 144 miles, 4.3 million 2008 (official count)

Caltrain, CRT: 79 miles, 12.7 million FY2009

Valley Metro, LRT: 19.6 miles, 33,480 daily riders, won't be fully open until 2010

BART, HRT: 104 miles, 103.3 million

Los Angeles County MTA: 55.7 LRT/17.4 HRT, 40 million LRT/38 million HRT

Sacramento Regional Transit District, LRT: 37.4 miles, 14.5 million

Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority, LRT: 81 miles, 10.8 million

Regional Transportation District Denver, LRT, 35 miles, 21 million

Chicago Transit Authority, HRT: 224.1 miles, 198.2 million

Twin Cities Metro Transit, LRT: 12 miles, 10.2 million, still incomplete Under Construction plus CRT

St. Louis Metro, LRT: 46 miles, 53 million

New Jersey Transit, CRT/LRT: 500 miles CRT/ 60.7 LRT 81.6 million CRT/22.3 million LRT

NYC Transit, HRT: 233 miles, 1.6 Billion

Charlotte Area Transit System, LRT: 9.6 miles, 5 million (new system FY 2009 numbers)

Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority, 26.2 LRT/38.6 HRT, 3.3 million LRT/6.4 million HRT

TriMet, LRT: no miles given (constant additions), CRT new start, 35.2 million

SEPTA, LRT, HRT, CRT: LRT 56.1 miles, HRT 24.1 miles, CRT 292 miles, 29.9 million LRT, 93.3 million HRT, 35.5 CRT

Dallas Area Rapid Transit, LRT/Streetcar: 45 miles, 19.4 million, incomplete under construction

UTA UT, LRT, CRT: 20 miles LRT/45 miles CRT, 13.9 million LRT, 1.4 million May-Dec 2008 CRT just opened FrontRunner, 70 miles under construction including both CRT/LRT

SOURCE: Passenger Rail at a Glance, pp I-18, OCT 2009, Progressive Railroading Magazine

Ironically, you and the other MJ folks are fans of the Central Florida Commuter Rail that is projected to have minimal ridership,........... an embarrassingly low ridership of just 3,500 daily riders.

But to be totally fair we also need to compare the miles on each: 61 miles for the Central Florida Commuter Rail vs 75 miles for the Tri-Rail line, so the Tri-Rail isn't significantly longer to capture more riders that way.

Being front of the line is a good thing for Florida, especially since we are in dire need of jobs, although I whole-heartedly agree with tufsu1's condensed summary:

Let me help you all with this....intercity rail of any form will do just fine in Florida if we don't widen the interstates between our cities beyond six lanes!

Gee Whiz Faye, think of all the poor highway worker jobs you'll be terminating, that's a shell game your playing with the job sob story, I don't buy it.  As for commuter rail, here, Tampa or Orlando, trying to stack projections against hard numbers, such as the above examples, is like trying to grab onto air.

I'm not even saying we shouldn't be proud of Tri-Rail and be supporting it and pushing it's expansion. God knows South Florida needs all the help it can get, but Tallahassee is deaf, dumb and blind. The logic of taking the money from Tri-Rail to build Sunrail sounds more like a plot from "A Clockwork Orange." In the world of Commuter Rail ONLY, Tri-Rail is around number 11 of 21 systems, not bad, considering the route, but there are those damn details you love to hate. With the population, length, infrastructure, traffic counts, and density, of South Florida, had they built it right the first time, we'd probably be pushing into Chicago/New York type numbers today. But hey what do I know, I'm just an expatriot that is starting to feel like "HOME" is an hour southwest of Cuba.

Here's Jeffery's information from the industry:
In the 2025 and 2030 long range transportation plans, Tri-Rail has envisioned moving to or adding service on the Florida East Coast (FEC) rail corridor, which runs next to U.S. 1 (Biscayne Boulevard/Brickell Avenue in Miami-Dade County, and Federal Highway in Broward & Palm Beach Counties). This corridor will provide more opportunities for pedestrian travel from stations to end destinations than does the current South Florida Rail Corridor, which must rely almost exclusively on shuttle buses for passenger distribution

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

In the world of Commuter Rail ONLY, Tri-Rail is around number 11 of 21 systems, not bad, considering the route, but there are those damn details you love to hate. With the population, length, infrastructure, traffic counts, and density, of South Florida, had they built it right the first time, we'd probably be pushing into Chicago/New York type numbers today. But hey what do I know, I'm just an expatriot that is starting to feel like "HOME" is an hour southwest of Cuba. [/color] [/b]

Here's Jeffery's information from the industry:
In the 2025 and 2030 long range transportation plans, Tri-Rail has envisioned moving to or adding service on the Florida East Coast (FEC) rail corridor, which runs next to U.S. 1 (Biscayne Boulevard/Brickell Avenue in Miami-Dade County, and Federal Highway in Broward & Palm Beach Counties). This corridor will provide more opportunities for pedestrian travel from stations to end destinations than does the current South Florida Rail Corridor, which must rely almost exclusively on shuttle buses for passenger distribution

You know, criticizing our existing commuter rail, when it does quite well, even though it could have done better on another route, is fairly useless. It's making the good, the enemy of the perfect.

Truth is we should be happy to have at least one commuter rail line in Florida, and we better fully support it or we foolishly will lose out on federal monies, and I'm not just talking HSR monies:

Legislators have previously rejected a proposed $2 surcharge on car rentals to finance commuter-rail projects. That was despite the possibility that the state might have to give back some $256 million in federal aid if it does not provide a continuing funding source for Tri-Rail.

SunRail is even more problematic. The system would operate on CSX tracks in the Orlando area, and the most recent proposal called for holding the freight line harmless in any legal action resulting from the firm's negligence. CSX also wants $150 million for use of its tracks and another $500 million for improvements to CSX facilities. The Florida Senate rightly rejected that proposal.

Long-awaited commitment

Atwater, however, said federal officials might be flexible in how they view the state's commitment.

"This is about rail in Florida; it's not about SunRail specifically," Atwater said after the Washington meeting. "That's what their communication was to us today: 'Look, we need to see long-term commitment on rail activity in Florida if we're going to make this investment.'"

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20091025/OPINION/910251023/2198/OPINION?Title=Running-for-the-train

Funny how you keep criticizing the Tri-Rail Ridership, but have no problem with the Central Florida Commuter Rail only taking 3,500 riders off the I-4, which has 170,000 roders each day. Quite deceitful in my mind as it should be in everyone's mind.

[thelakelander]

Screw them both!  Give me an Amtrak corridor service.

[CS Foltz]

lake I gotta agree with you! FEC/Amtrak has a better shot at getting something going rather than what is trying to take place Orlando way! The hell with Mica and his posse.....If Amtrak is serious then we net to get it going!

[Ocklawaha]

For those just joining this long standing ramble: FayeforCure, in making a bid to support Central Florida HSR, has stated that we need to support all rail projects in Florida. She has used data showing that Tri-Rail in Miami, has broken ridership records in the recent fuel crunch, yet she is fighting Central Florida Commuter Rail/AKA: Sunrail.

I have replied that the High Speed Rail, as it now appears, is a BAD PLAN. My contention, and that of most of MJ's staff, is that a train from Orlando Airport to Disney to Downtown Tampa, without passing through the center, or even close to a single intermediate town is poor planning. I recently was critical of Miami's Tri-Rail, in spite of the spike in ridership because it too was poorly planned by FDOT, my contention being while we should support and fix Tri-Rail, they should have built it through the intermediate towns directly on the FEC track and not "Way Out West", as they did.

Funny how you keep criticizing the Tri-Rail Ridership, but have no problem with the Central Florida Commuter Rail only taking 3,500 riders off the I-4, which has 170,000 roders each day. Quite deceitful in my mind as it should be in everyone's mind.

Could that be because I am the dark and evil Ocklawaha, or is it that Tri-Rail is dealing with real people on the worst possible route we could have built and Sun Rail's numbers are only "projections." Faye, transit projections have been so wildly off, usually far, under the real performance of different forms of commuter rail, that they're becoming laughable. Sunrail, would at least serve community centers, middle of town, all the way from start to finish. This tells me their numbers will quickly pull away from your Airport-Disney shuttle train. Man when this HSR thing stops north of Haines City, you better have your hiking shoes on... or another $30 to get you to Haines City from the middle of I-4 and nowhere in a 1979 model Chevy Taxi.

I'm certainly no enemy of rail in any form, but it must be done right, on budget and on time, after all are you willing to stake our States transportation future. You see Faye, it isn't just Lake, Stephendare or myself who are saying Tri-Rail is off track (even though the idea is RIGHT):

Miami Downtown Development Authority hashing out plans to bring Tri-Rail downtown.

By Catherine Lackner
   Commuters who travel by rail into downtown Miami from points north might have their journeys shortened considerably if a new plan to bring Tri-Rail into the central business district succeeds.
   The tri-county commuter train runs daily from Miami to West Palm Beach on tracks owned by CSX, which means riders must disembark at Northwest 79th Street in northwest Miami-Dade and board Metrorail to get downtown. But Florida East Coast Railway tracks just blocks from the transfer point head directly downtown, and switching Tri-Rail onto those tracks would give the train â€" and commuters â€" a straight shot.
   "If we could bring Tri-Rail downtown it would be a huge advantage," Vice Chair Neisen Kasdin told board members of Miami's Downtown Development Authority this month. It's been shown that the fewer transfers and accommodations riders are forced to make, the more likely they are to use trains, he said.
   "It's a priority to get Miami-Dade County behind it," he said, noting that there has been a perception that a re-routed Tri-Rail would compete with Metrorail.
   While long-range plans for South Florida include passenger rail transportation into downtown Miami eventually, "This would be quicker and much less expensive," Mr. Kasdin said.
   Board member Oscar Rodriguez asked how it could be done.
   "Tri-Rail will negotiate with FEC," Mr. Kasdin said. "In fact, they're having discussions now."
   "We are looking at that option," confirmed Bonnie Arnold, Tri-Rail spokeswoman. "FEC comes across our corridor just south of Northwest 79th Street." The potential downtown Miami link and a planned extension to Jupiter are already part of presentations that have been shown would-be investors, she said.
   The Florida Department of Transportation is also studying the issue as part of its long-term agenda, she added.
   "We have to provide advocacy and leadership if we want this done," Mr. Kasdin told the downtown authority's board. "I think we really ought to move on it as soon as possible."

(Source: Miami Today News, Oct 29, 2009)

HEY Y'ALL? DOES THIS ARTICLE/PLAN MAKE ME 6 FOR 6?


OCKLAWAHA    
     

[FayeforCure]

Excellent! Now we would have an east line and a west line, once the FEC line is used by Tri-Rail.

None of this is a reason to let the existing Tri-Rail (east line) languish without dedicated state funding. End of story.

As I said: there is no reason to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

[CS Foltz]

Yeah Ock..........it does look like your 6 for 6, but that's just because your crystal ball is high end and evidently fresh out of overhaul! I really think there should be a dedicated funding source for all rail not just isolated pockets where counties are funding a system out of their own pockets. If that be the case then each county would need to step up and those counties with few residents would be more strapped than the more populated ones. Looked at from that point..........a simple $2 Dollar tax on rental vehicles would be the easiest to swallow,we charge bed tax's now as does most of the country.....any more on the hospitality industry and it will go further down then it already has. If the state of Florida can not fund out of state coffers, then we need to come up with an alternative or we will never have no mass transit system but isolated pockets!

[JeffreyS]

When you see the current Tri-Rail stations from I95 they do look isolated but it is probably also good advertising to people interested in Miami to see they have commuter rail.

[tufsu1]

sorry Ock...this doesn't make you 6 for 6.....Tri-Rail, as originally planneed, was to provide a relatively high speed route from West Palm while I-95 was under construction.....having the tracks adjcent to I-95 meant that it was accessible by car (most stations are park & ride) and in the center of the three counties.

While I like the idea of running transit on the FEC through the area, imagine how long it would take to travel from West Palm Beach to Miami through all those downtowns...I'm guessing almost 2 hours instead of the current 1 hour Tri-Rail ride...and do some research on what they now say LRT along this corridor would cost.

Now, as for Miami itself....the end of the Tri-Rail line was always poorly located....whichis why the second to last stop was the busiest, as it tied into MetroRail....the final stop is close to the Airport and will be tied into the new Miami Intermodal Center (MIC) that is under construction, providing a direct connection to the Airport.

And guess what else....there will be an east-west MetroRail line connecting the MIC with downtown....so at this point, I would not be in favor of a Tri-Rail extension into downtown.

[Ocklawaha]

Excellent! Now we would have an east line and a west line, once the FEC line is used by Tri-Rail.

None of this is a reason to let the existing Tri-Rail (east line) languish without dedicated state funding. End of story.

As I said: there is no reason to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Once again, we agree Faye. My point all along was the piss poor route they decided to use. Tusfu1, is simply lathing in a tub of old news. If Tri-Rail can't use the FEC due to congestion, thus making the FDOT "smart," in picking the worst, BFE route, between the end points, then I suppose (as you WELL KNOW FAYE) that Los Angeles will NEVER be able to have Commuter Rail. My God, railroads through downtowns? At grade crossings? Yeah, a real deal killer, tell that to METROLINK, SURFLINERS, AMTRAK CALIFORNIA, AMTRAK, etc...  Ah slow as hell? Really? Last ride on Metrolink from Agua Dulce (Palmdale) to Los Angeles Union Terminal, we were overtaking cars on I-5 like they were in reverse.

This is all I'm saying, not that I don't support Tri-Rail, Sunrail, Tampa, and the citizens dreams for JAX.. Nobody is holding Tri-Rail, MetroLink, FEC Corridor, etc... up to LRT transit, while they are from the same litter, your now talking about a different puppy, tu.. Faye, has brought up Orlando LRT several times, which is a project, not unlike Tampa. I support the idea, but how in hell did we come up with figures higher then most Subways, Heavy Rail, or elevated LRT? I would suggest the promoters and defenders of the BUS RAPID TRANSIT school of higher transportation living, have managed to convince themselves, reading their own propaganda.

"The people want buses, they hate rail." Mike Miller, JTA
"LRT is not a good fit for Jacksonville." Scott Clem, JTA
"Rail is just rail, the price of busways are getting cheaper every day." Ed Castinelli, JTA
"We'd like to do rail, SOMEDAY." Mike Blaylock, JTA

What does this tell you about JTA? Jacksonville? BRT?

OCKLAWAHA

[Dog Walker]

Steel on steel must be the deal!

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

[tufsu1]

Tusfu1, is simply lathing in a tub of old news. If Tri-Rail can't use the FEC due to congestion, thus making the FDOT "smart," in picking the worst, BFE route, between the end points,

since when is I-95 in Palm Beach, Broward, or Miami-Dade Counties in BFE?

btw, I rode the commuter rail in San Diego....it goes through a whole bunch of undeveloped land....and completely bypasses the developed areas surrounding La Jolla....not even remotely comparable with the FEC line in south Florida.