High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer

[CS Foltz]

Well the general concensus appears to be " We need rail for masstransit"......that part is pretty  much of a gimme! Beyond that everyone has their own interpretation of just what that means! Most of us appear to question just whether or not that the Orlando/St Pete region is the one to showpiece just what rail can do. I keep coming back to making use of what we have in place right this moment, not building a new system in the middle of I4,even though it was set up that way for either rail or auto lanes, but using what is in place now. Amtrak probably has a shot at getting something up and running in a relatively short period, St Augustine and station, so why are we not pushing for an East Coast revival of not so long past Passanger Rail. Rails are already in place, matter of scheduling. I don't have a problem with HSR if its used as intended which is High Speed Rail, but a lousy 73 mile stretch is not a viable example nor is it a great showpiece for tourist attraction. This is basically a standalone system which may be connected to Miami and then maybe connected to elsewhere. I think we need to take a breath and really look at what we want, what is needed ,what can we afford, form a concensus and take it from there!

[tufsu1]

So.  Faye. 

Do you think that the airports are industry centers?

actually yes....OIA and downtown Tampa would qualify under the statement of "encouraging business connections between centers of industry"

For example, the OIA area is the hopsitality and transportation industry....downtown Tampa is home to the corporate banking industry...and obviously I-Drive and Disney would also be the convention and hospitality industry

[Ocklawaha]

Be careful what you suggest here Stephen, next thing you know, Tallahassee will be extolling the virtues of Baptist fishermen and their need for HSR, over those of Jacksonville.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

So.  Faye. 

Do you think that the airports are industry centers?

actually yes....OIA and downtown Tampa would qualify under the statement of "encouraging business connections between centers of industry"

For example, the OIA area is the hopsitality and transportation industry....downtown Tampa is home to the corporate banking industry...and obviously I-Drive and Disney would also be the convention and hospitality industry

tufsu1, that is a strong existing economic justification to the current HSR plans. Thanks for making that point. I read the Science Progress article to mean that additional innovative business clusters would emerge from HSR availability.

But you are absolutely right that there is already ample economic activity that would be connected by HSR, whereas Sunrail would just connect bedroom communities to limited DT workplaces. It's in response to sprawl, rather than an effort to reduce sprawl as the HSR would do.

[JeffreyS]

Interesting take Faye. I do think Sunrail is a reaction to sprawl but I also think it would help build up areas developed as sprawl into more sustainable models.

Have we seen prospective Transit Oriented Developments targeted for this possible HSR?

Is the new ROW the main reason HSR is so much more costly or the technology?

[Ocklawaha]

Be careful what you suggest here Stephen, next thing you know, Tallahassee will be extolling the virtues of Baptist fishermen and their need for HSR, over those of Jacksonville.

OCKLAWAHA

ock are you acquainted with the acronym "LMAO"?

Oh yeah! HA!

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

Interesting take Faye. I do think Sunrail is a reaction to sprawl but I also think it would help build up areas developed as sprawl into more sustainable models.

Have we seen prospective Transit Oriented Developments targeted for this possible HSR?

JeffreyS, you are right,........I have not seen any studies outlining prospective Transit Oriented Developments targeted for Florida HSR. That's why I was pleased to see the ScienceProgress article linking one type of innovation with the emergence of other types of innovation.

Maybe the federal government ought to capitalize on the HSR linked emerging opportunities to spur innovation clusters:

As nations around the world race to copy U.S. economic success, it is a startling fact that the United States has never devoted even a single penny to direct national support for regional innovation clusters -- perhaps the key critical component of our future national economic competitiveness. Yet we know that regional clusters work when competitive community strengths are improved through the existence of local, shared advantages that continually spill over as specialists in the same and different high-tech fields look for the next generation of innovation, pushed by competitors, pulled by customers and prodded by suppliers.

What are the kinds of advantages shared by the participants in clusters? They could be a set of workers who boast particular skills, such as building boats in Maine with the latest new materials. Or community colleges that offer training to manufacturing workers in places where advanced manufacturers locate. Or research centers that conduct basic research into biotechnology close to start-up biotechnology companies. Or major industries such as aerospace that spin off new technologies that become new innovations peddled by new companies worldwide.

State governments are the primary funders of programs to help federally funded basic research make its way into job-creating innovation-led companies, yet today 47 out of 50 states face serious budget shortfalls. That's why local leadership needs federal support. The federal government can frame critical national challenges, such as clean energy and advanced manufacturing, and can facilitate the flow of information and expertise to and between regions. Washington can help finance, in a competitive and leveraged fashion, valuable activities that clusters would otherwise be unable to undertake -- and do it with relatively little money. Indeed, the requested $100 million pales alongside that $150 billion spent on R&D annually and the roughly $650 million spent on programs that indirectly (and historically often incoherently) work with regional clusters.

A modest federal investment in a national cluster development program to focus federal spending on what community innovation leaders on the ground know could work better and would multiply the benefits of our existing federal innovation programs. Coordinating these efforts around cluster strengths would help make other federal innovation efforts infinitely more effective. An valuable regional innovation clusters program should support local leadership with a three-part approach:

- Competitive grants that clusters can use to bolster their stressed resources

- Information networks to help clusters gather the data they need to create their own strategies

- Coordination of diverse federal programs to align federal resources more tightly with cluster priorities.

This is good public policy -- and good political leadership that marries the strength of our nation's many competitive community clusters to our famed research prowess and dynamic entrepreneurial culture.


Jonathan Sallet and Ed Paisley are co-authors of the recent paper published by the Center for American Progress titled "The Geography of Innovation: The Federal Government and the Growth of Regional Innovation Clusters."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-sallet/innovation-clusters-creat_b_293603.html

[FayeforCure]

This is really a great idea, Faye.

Which innovation cluster would you have in mind?

This would be another long range/medium range program?

Sorry to disappoint you,.......I'm not an expert of innovation clusters. One cluster type does come to mind for Florida though,.......did you know that Florida is fourth in the nation for the bio-medical industry?

That's why it was so appalling that there is a state "ban" on embryonic stem cell research,......making the bio-medical climate in Florida less state of the art for new investors than some of the other bio-medical intense states..

BTW your tone seems rather mocking,.......is that how you mean it to be?

I like Big Picture thinking that is in line with a sustainable economic future. That's my philosophy, take it or leave it.

[Ocklawaha]

On days like this I sure wish I was back in the 3Rd World... oh wait, I am! Florida!

tufsu1, that is a strong existing economic justification to the current HSR plans. Thanks for making that point. I read the Science Progress article to mean that additional innovative business clusters would emerge from HSR availability.

But you are absolutely right that there is already ample economic activity that would be connected by HSR, whereas Sunrail would just connect bedroom communities to limited DT workplaces. It's in response to sprawl, rather than an effort to reduce sprawl as the HSR would do.

A sustainable economic future? Faye, sorry girl but you are absolutely deluded on this issue. The number of flight crews running turnaround's to Orlando, with a plan to see Disney by train must be staggering. Meanwhile you have left the 1.5 Million folks in Orlando to fend for themselves on the only through route in Central Florida, is it because Mica supports the commuter rail plan? This sounds like pure partisan politics at it's worst, or your whole platform is emotion based at best.

How would a train, or highway, or canal for that matter, that completely misses the population centers between point A and B, help curb sprawl? It's the railroad equivalent to I-295, built to go around the city, today it's part of the city. Why? Because the City will always expand to reach the newest transportation arterial. In this case, you want to build a "national showcase," but look at the miles from I-4 to Kissimmee, Haines City, Auburndale, Lakeland, Plant City, and tell me with a straight face that developers won't dive in to be the first planned community with a HSR core. Crazy thing is, even when they fill in every acre, it will still be stumbling financially, because how many people in Auburndale, work at OIA? Disney? or the middle of a highway interchange in Tampa?

I don't believe for a minute that tufsu1 really thinks this is the "national showcase" HSR either. He knows how the game is played and hopes for a continued paycheck.

A strong existing economic justification to the current HSR plans.

What economic justification, outside of raiding the US treasury of $2.5 Billion dollars so a few dozen tourists will get a different view of Green Swamp. Those numbers are so cooked as to fade off the pages of the reports.

I read the Science Progress article to mean that additional innovative business clusters would emerge from HSR availability.

...and if they do, since the whole thing is in the middle of nowhere, it will become the largest engine for sprawl that Central Florida has seen since Disney announced his "Magic Kingdom." Anything that develops along the high speed/I-4 route will be Sprawl, because unlike Sunrail, it's not designed to carry the demand that is already in place, it seeks to create it's own new age demands.

But you are absolutely right that there is already ample economic activity that would be connected by HSR,

We must be missing something, I see an Airport, a Convention Center (a place where LRT would be far superior to HSR as the damn train will hardly get up to 50 mph from one to the other), an amusement park, some stations way north of the little towns where the roads pass over or under the expressway (the pine lumber industry), and a jail in Tampa, but not the transportation center. WTF?

whereas Sunrail would just connect bedroom communities to limited DT workplaces.

This is where I think your emotional war path has led you astray. "just connect bedroom communities to limited downtown workplaces..." Holy crap, THATS WHAT TRANSIT IS SUSPOSED TO DO! Yes! Connect those in bedroom communities to LIMITED DOWNTOWN work space. From your own words, it is anti-sprawl. If your thinking the only riders are those that live or work along the route, then you are discounting the dozens of bus routes, that will feed into the system. Buses that today are making the long bumper to bumper trek into downtown Orlando for the Lynx center, will no longer have to do that. Building Sunrail would be like getting a whole new fleet of buses that can be redeployed to make commutes more resident friendly. Somehow I don't see the same thing happening 8 miles north of Poinciana on I-4.

It's in response to sprawl, rather than an effort to reduce sprawl as the HSR would do.

So the migration of the downtowns of every community from Orlando to Tampa, from their current core's to I-4 is an effort to reduce sprawl? Service to those already living in built up area's, to carry them into limited downtown workplaces, is just a reaction to Sprawl?

Me thinkith you have this backwards.



OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Ock, it sounds like you're becoming an urban planner.

[Ocklawaha]

Gonna be damn funny when you and I switch chairs! I'm not sure this town is ready for us. LOL

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

well its not really mocking.

Its more leading.

Im hoping that you become a rail advocate.  And not just a rail enthusiast, but smart about it, and able to discriminate between good, bad, and mediocre projects.

Its so important to the future of this country that we get it right.

Good, bad, and mediocre projects depend on vantage point and objectives, as well as getting good value for our tax payer dollars.

I am already a Rail advocate. Have been showing my passion ever since I spoke at a local meeting with Senator Jim King, Rep. Procter and other legislators.

My citizen activism has long been proven on stem cell research and healthcare for all, and is in full swing for rail as well.

[tufsu1]

Well under those definitions of industry, we could connect the fishing industry of pottsburg creek to the spiritual industry of Callahan First Baptist couldnt we?

actually Stephen...both commercial fishing and religious institutions are defined industries according to the Federal government 

Now to be fair, there is a burgeoning health/biotech district being built in Orlando...called Lake Nona...and it is pretty much in the middle of nowhere (suburbia)....is this something that should be served by local, regional, and/or intercity rail?

[FayeforCure]

...., is it because Mica supports the commuter rail plan? This sounds like pure partisan politics at it's worst,.....

Ock, I have given you my reasons, and they are sound. Let me repeat:

In fact it's ( Sunrail) killed the appetite of ardent rail supporters because of it's secretive, corporate welfare kinda dealings, low ridership, and it's only objective seemingly the creation of ridership through added developers' bonanza.

One could even say that it's Mica who wants this for political reasons,......after all the line runs right through his backyard and he's known to be a good corporate servant.

Left-leaning OrlandoWeekly, which would otherwise be supportive of public transportation and thus Sunrail has stated similar concerns, which I will repost below. My question is: why such a reluctance to rework the deal in all transparency to take care of the concerns that even pro-rail folks have with Sunrail?

Here is Orlando Weekly's take again:

6/25/2009          

News

Rail is dead. Long live rail
Why SunRail's demise isn't a bad thing    

By Jeffrey C. Billman

Barring an 11th-hour reprieve, on June 30 the state’s deal with CSX for a 61.5-mile, $600 million-plus commuter rail line between DeLand and Poinciana will officially go the way of the dinosaur. With it goes the aspirations and spent political capital of the legion of lawmakers who spent years pushing for SunRail â€" especially Orlando Mayor Buddy and U.S. Rep. John Mica, a Republican who has spent decades in Washington securing federal money for mass transit, only to watch the locals screw it up.

In the end, SunRail drowned in a toxic stew of Tallahassee political machinations, parochialism and a recession that sucked the life out of most big-ticket items (save Dyer’s venues, of course). After losing a climactic vote in the state Senate in May, dejected SunRail supporters threw a temper tantrum that any toddler would admire. Orlando city commissioner Patty Sheehan blamed the “knuckle-dragging Neanderthals” in the state Legislature.

“I think the forces of evil have won,” Dyer added. Perhaps there’s truth to the idea that conservatives’ knee-jerk opposition to spending on infrastructure improvements doomed SunRail. But if SunRail’s supporters want someone to blame, they should find a mirror.

SunRail’s many shortcomings are rooted in this simple fact: After the collapse of light rail almost a decade ago, our leaders were so desperate to get something done that they gave away the store (not unlike the new arena deal with the Orlando Magic, one could argue). The deal as presently conceived is a boondoggle, a corporate giveaway, an expensively ill-conceived effort that will subsidize exurban sprawl and do little to take cars off I-4.

We can do better. SunRail’s demise affords us that opportunity.

Back in 2006, the state’s Department of Transportation agreed to pay CSX $432 million for 61.5 miles of track. FDOT planned to invest another $173 million in improvement. According to critics, the cumulative capital investment of $615 million â€" $10 million per mile â€" makes this the most expensive rail purchase in U.S. history. Mica promised that the feds would pick up half, with the state and local governments splitting the rest. In turn, the state would lease the track back to CSX for off-hour freight runs at a fraction of the state’s maintenance costs.

To sweeten the deal â€" $10 million per mile isn’t sweet enough, apparently â€" the state also agreed to pay for any accidents associated with the rail line, even if CSX were at fault. If a CSX freight train crashed, Florida taxpayers would have been on the hook. State CFO Alex Sink said she wasn’t sure the state could find an insurer to underwrite that $200 million policy.

This deal, negotiated in secret, is the very definition of corporate welfare. And taxpayers wouldn’t get much in return. At best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus. As anyone who’s relied on LYNX can attest, that’s not a heart-warming prospect [see “Take the keys,” April 19, 2007].

SunRail supporters cast it as a down payment on what this region really needs: an intermodal network of light rail lines, buses and other mass transportation options that would efficiently link downtown, UCF, the airport, International Drive, Innovation Way and whatever other employment and entertainment hot spots emerge. Ideally, this network would hook up to federally funded high-speed rail lines that crisscross the state and render the car irrelevant â€" or at least, less necessary.

Commuter rail doesn’t do that. It subsidizes those who choose to live in the hinterlands. It papers over the poor growth-management decisions of yesteryear rather than encouraging smart growth. It’s not a cure; it’s a Band-Aid.

Light rail was a good idea torpedoed by special interests and political cowardice. Commuter rail was supposed to be the cheaper, more digestible alternative. Now that it too has imploded, maybe it’s time to step back and re-evaluate our options: If we’re going to spend the money, why not spend it on something that would actually work?

jbillman@orlandoweekly.com

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

None of what is said in this article can be denied. And I am disappointed at you all that you don't see that rail supporters would be against this particular deal for the above reasons. The fact that you all want Sunrail at all cost, regardless of the facts above is really weird.

And again, I lived in Poinciana, I know of which I speak. Terrible decision living way out there. Many people who live there eventually move into Orlando.

I'm done here, I've got better things to do with my time.

[Ocklawaha]

The Dixie Flyer, JAX-ATL, "in the hole" back in the days... (The hole, is railroad slang for taking the side track to meet another train). The Coast Line baked Chicken wasn't to be missed.


The Birmingham-Memphis-KCY, Kansas City-Florida Special, headed to Jacksonville in better days.


East Coast Champion, at Miami, THIS is what the FEC once had.

A system of conventional Amtrak trains, expandable to jet, turbo or electric would do more then the sum of all of these schemes:

Jacksonville-Daytona-Melbourne-Ft. Pierce-West Palm-Ft. Lauderdale-Miami
5 trains daily, two through to and from New York/Miami. Southbound departures from Jacksonville at:

6:00 am
9:00 am
1:00 pm
4:30 pm
11:59 pm

With similar departures Northbound out of Miami.

Jacksonville-Baldwin-Tallahassee-Pensacola-Mobile-Gulf Port-New Orleans, 5 trains daily each way. Two operate all the way through, one turns back at Pensacola and the other 2 turn at Tallahassee.

Leaving Jacksonville:

6:00 am
8:30 am
4:00 pm
6:00 pm
9:00 pm

With similar departures Eastbound from New Orleans, Pensacola and Tallahassee.


Jacksonville-Baldwin-Starke-Waldo-Ocala-Lakeland-Tampa/Orlando/Miami

7:00 am to Miami
9:30 am to Tampa
11:30 am to Miami
2:00 pm to Orlando
6:20 pm to Tampa

Jacksonville-Yukon-Green Cove Springs-Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa/Winter Haven-West Palm-Miami



8:45 am to Tampa (with through cars to Ft. Myers/Naples).
8:55 am to Miami
10:00 am to Tampa (and continues on to Sarasota/Venice).
4:30 pm to Miami
11:45 pm to Tampa

Jacksonville-Shand's-23Rd Street-Busch-JIA conector-Yulee (connecting bus to JIA, and at Yulee for Fernandina and Kingsland/St. Marys/Kings Bay NS)

Inbound in the AM, and outbound in the PM, with a few counter flow RDC trians.
Service every hour, about 5am - 1 am

Jacksonville-Baldwin-Starke-Alachua-Gainesville
Morning and evening trains, inbound to Jax in the am and outbound in the pm.

Tampa (Union Station)-Lakeland-Winter Haven-West Palm-Miami

6:00 am
8:00 am via Bartow
11:00 am
4:00 pm wia Bartow
7:00 pm


"Don't try this at home, we are, what you call professionals" (Jamie Hyneman-Adam Savage) But this little batch of five daily round trips, gives you a sneak peek at what Amtrak - JTA - MJ and I are pushing for. We/I/they, also have an extensive plan of connectivity which would expand the Florida corridors to reach out and touch the Southeastern USA, reviving many of the classic rail routes, including Jacksonville to:

Waycross-Brimingham-Memphis
Savannah-Charleston-Norfolk
Valdosta-Atlanta-Cincinnati-Chicago/Detroit/Cleveland-Buffalo
Valdosta-Atlanta-Nashville-Louisville-Indy-Chicago
Savannah-Columbia-Charlotte-NYC

OCKLAWAHA