High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer

[Ocklawaha]

LRT would fit, but it would have to return to it's Interurban railroad roots. Larger cars, lounge with lite meals, and station stops, in the heart of each town. Most LRT today is simply large versions of "streetcar" in both design and function. It doesn't have to be that way, and it sure as heck doesn't have to stop every 3 - 5 miles. Working with companies such as ABB or Bombardier, traditional interurban (what they now call LRT).

Traditional Interurban's, had coach and first class seating, restrooms, express and baggage, and many offered lounge or lite meal services. They could sprint from a town or city on their own private right-of-way, reaching speeds in excess of 90 mph. On encountering the next town, the tracks would often merge with a main street and go right down the median to the station somewhere in the core. After the quick stop they'd roll on to the edge of town, regain private trackage and run like hell to the next town.

So the interurban's of old, might be said to have been the first High Speed Rail/Streetcar hybrids, something it seems that we have forgot. Perhaps grandpa wasn't as crazy as we think he was? To pull this off Florida would have to think out of the box... when it's painfully apparent we can't even think within the box!

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Do you think it would be financially feasible to convert CSX's line to an electrified interurban route?  It would seem for a start up you could get just about the same service by upgrading Amtrak instead of immediately bearing the cost and process of electrifying the rail line.

[Ocklawaha]

Lake, it really would take a complete economic study. While it would run a couple of million a mile to string catenary (wires), the O&M costs drop through the floor. We would also have to know if the revamped Amtrak system from ORL to TPA, is carrying enough traffic to warrant 1 car trains, or 14 car trains. There is something to be said for the old interurbans running past every 40 minutes, with full services, on many of their trains, so what I'm suggesting is looking backward for a possible answer or maybe just a part of the answer. If Amtrak were to go to a system of SFT Short-Fast-Trains, (what the FEC used for years in freight), and if those trains were well patronized, then electric would be the next logical step. Since with electric you need NO SPACE for an engine within a carbody, (everything is under the floor), you get much better equipment utilization. Thoughts?

OCKLAWAHA

[CS Foltz]

Ock..........makes sense to me! Using existing tracks to me is the key.......no additional tracks unless ridership indicates the need for the expansion. So the cost of something would be greatly reduced, just the cars and the scheduling to enable the passenger side to exist. To me that makes more sense than an abbreviated system of HSR that is proposed for the Orlando region. State should be helping on the cost of the Sunrail system and expand as needed.........but that just me!

[FayeforCure]

According to the City of Orlando:

260,000 jobs statewide and $9 billion in economic benefit

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:VtGax5KJUUoJ:www.righttrackflorida.org/_resources/browse/file/Dyer%2520Support%2520Letter%2520to%2520external%2520audiences%2520FINAL.pdf+sunrail+job+creation&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNHny6_sA7G9VdWuFZlpIHSAV_nnYw

Hmmm, a letter by Buddy Dyer, the mayor of Orlando that doesn't even state a reputable source for such far-out numbers.....

Don't forget you are talking to an economist here,......no pulling wool over my eyes. I asked you for the direct jobs created, no future spin-off jobs that are highly dependent on economic acitivity. If those numbers did come out of a study done in 2005, it was based on continued boom conditions in Florida. May I remind you that there has been a down turn in economic activity, which means investors are reluctant to invest,......therefor the direct jobs for construction are the only ones we can count on at this point.

As for the economic impact of the DIRECT jobs created by HSR:

$11.7 billion in wages and salaries and $34.1
billion in additional economic activity and a $5.7 billion of other
benefits."

http://www.cefa.fsu.edu/news_rail.html

Note the reputable source, and the total of about $50 billion. These are 2002 numbers, so they ought to be adjusted for inflation.

Wow, more than a five-fold advantage of HSR DIRECT economic impact over "wishful-thinking" future economic impact of Sunrail, aka developer's bonanza.

[thelakelander]

According to the City of Orlando:

260,000 jobs statewide and $9 billion in economic benefit

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:VtGax5KJUUoJ:www.righttrackflorida.org/_resources/browse/file/Dyer%2520Support%2520Letter%2520to%2520external%2520audiences%2520FINAL.pdf+sunrail+job+creation&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNHny6_sA7G9VdWuFZlpIHSAV_nnYw

Hmmm, a letter by Buddy Dyer, the mayor of Orlando that doesn't even state a reputable source for such far-out numbers.....

Don't forget you are talking to an economist here,......no pulling wool over my eyes. I asked you for the direct jobs created, no future spin-off jobs that are highly dependent on economic acitivity. If those numbers did come out of a study done in 2005, it was based on continued boom conditions in Florida. May I remind you that there has been a down turn in economic activity, which means investors are reluctant to invest,......therefor the direct jobs for construction are the only ones we can count on at this point.

You're an economist so don't let the kool aid bubbling as a HSR train cloud your vision.  Since you're not going to believe anything the Sunrail backers claim any way, why bother on my part?  Nevertheless, what do you think SUnrail's "direct" job creation numbers will be?  Keep in mind this should include all of the projects financed by the deal (ex. JaxPort intermodal railyard, Jax's Springfield bypass, the Winter Haven railyard, the CSX S line track capacity upgrades and Sunrail's construction).

As for the economic impact of the DIRECT jobs created by HSR:

$11.7 billion in wages and salaries and $34.1
billion in additional economic activity and a $5.7 billion of other
benefits."

http://www.cefa.fsu.edu/news_rail.html

Note the reputable source, and the total of about $50 billion. These are 2002 numbers, so they ought to be adjusted for inflation.

Wow, more than a five-fold advantage of HSR DIRECT economic impact over "wishful-thinking" future economic impact of Sunrail, aka developer's bonanza.

Lol, they ought to be adjusted for reality.  Anyway, perhaps Florida will get both, since they are tied together in the eyes of the feds.

[FayeforCure]

thelakelander, I am a past contributing writer for Science Progress, and I just found this interesting article by another contributing writer, that should give you some food for thought:

High Speed Rail for High-Tech Economic Development
Multiple studies have advocated for improving and modernizing the U.S. rail network as a way to spur economic growth, rein in sprawl, and make a strong commitment to sustainability. One such report, focusing on Boston, found that quality regional transportation played a significant role in fueling life sciences research.

For decades, Japan and Europe have deployed high-speed rail systems, which consist of trains that average over 125 mph. The closest we come to such a network in the United States is Amtrak’s Acela Express service, a train with an average speed, 86 mph, that is dwarfed by that of many international competitors, like France’s TGV trains, which average 173 mph.

Several states have recently announced, or are in the process of building, high speed rail lines. The federal government should embrace these projects and support them financially, recognizing that they can play an important role in sustaining the innovation and business networks that serve as the bedrock of the 21st century American economy. Here are a few proposed around the country:

An $18 billion to $20 billion project envisions 200-mph trains running throughout the “Texas T-Bone,” from Dallas/Fort Worth to Austin, San Antonio, and Houston. According to the Secretary of the Texas High Speed Rail and Transportation Corporation, “this system will create thousands of permanent jobs and attract a significant amount of investment, helping to ensure the continued growth of Texas’ economy.”

On election day this past November 4th, California voters approved a ballot proposition that authorized $9 billion in bond funding for an 800-mile intercity high speed rail network that will carry passengers from San Francisco to Los Angeles in 2 hours and 38 minutes. A report released in 2008 by the Bay Area Council Economic Institute found that “the high-speed train service can help Bay Area businesses expand their markets within California by providing more efficient access throughout the state.”

In the research and development phase, the Ohio Hub is a proposed 860-mile high speed rail network that will connect the major Ohio commercial centers of Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland with southern Ontario, Detroit, and other smaller cities. A report evaluating the economic impact of the proposed network found that “in the communities linked by the system, the project will create a new business environment that will be attractive to ‘New Economy’ (high tech mobile industry, frequently related to computer, telecommunications, and professional services businesses).”

A 2000 Florida referendum authorized funding for the phased development of a statewide HSR network, although a later referendum repealed that funding. A 2007 Florida State University study estimated that the “benefits of a statewide high speed rail program could range from $39 to $51 billion,” primarily by encouraging business connections between centers of industry.

For more on innovation clusters and tech-based economic development, see our “Regional Centers of Innovation 101.”

Posted by Justin R. Masterman | January 30, 2009 |

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/01/high-speed-rail/


Note the rein in sprawl vs promote or buy into sprawl

[thelakelander]

Faye, as mentioned before, I'm not against HSR.  I'm actually a fan.  I just view the current Tampa/Orlando plan as a poor one that's expensive enough to kill all of Florida's other rail plans if it fails (which it has a pretty good chance to do).

[FayeforCure]

Faye, as mentioned before, I'm not against HSR.  I'm actually a fan.  I just view the current Tampa/Orlando plan as a poor one that's expensive enough to kill all of Florida's other rail plans if it fails (which it has a pretty good chance to do).

The same rationale applies to Sunrail. In fact it's killed the appetite of ardent rail supporters because of it's secretive, corporate welfare kinda dealings, low ridership, and it's only objective seemingly the creation of ridership through added developers' bonanza.

But it's good to hear you are a fan of HSR.

[thelakelander]

Faye, as mentioned before, I'm not against HSR.  I'm actually a fan.  I just view the current Tampa/Orlando plan as a poor one that's expensive enough to kill all of Florida's other rail plans if it fails (which it has a pretty good chance to do).

The same rationale applies to Sunrail. In fact it's killed the appetite of ardent rail supporters because of it's secretive, corporate welfare kinda dealings, low ridership, and it's only objective seemingly the creation of ridership through added developers' bonanza.

But it's good to hear you are a fan of HSR.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with well planned HSR.  Especially, when you have local rail connections to feed it with riders or its built in areas with transit supportive land uses and densities.

As for Sunrail, do you not believe the deal will lead to thousands of new industrial, port and distribution jobs across the state?  Personally, I think the positives on this side of the deal are worth more than Orlando getting a commuter rail train.

However, if I had my choice, from a passenger rail standpoint, I'd kill both Sunrail and HSR and substitute them with a statewide Amtrak Florida corridor service.

[FayeforCure]

Faye.  you must not have seen my question.  Do you think that airports are industrial centers?

Stephen. though I haven't immersed myself in airports much, my own environmental concerns force me to say we need to reduce air travel, as it's THE most carbon emission intensive travel mode.

[FayeforCure]

well your colleague mentioned that one of the benefits of high speed rail was to connect industrial centers.

Doesnt the HSR route connect airports instead?

Ah, the initial route will be from DT Tampa to ORL airport. I am sure other connections will emerge.

[thelakelander]

Its very interesting because it (the Tampa/Orlando link, not HSR in general) will have nothing to do with industrial centers.  Sunrail does because the money CSX gets will be invested in upgrading freight rail capacity throughout the state and enhancing JaxPort.  Is there anyone here who will claim that better rail capacity will not stimulate more private sector industrial investment, which in turn typically creates well paying jobs.  However, HSR will be built down the middle of I-4.  That's a corridor more known for service jobs (hotels, theme parks, restaurants, retail, gas, etc.).  Unless DT Tampa, Disney or Orlando's airport plan on building industrial parks around their stations and letting freight trains use HSR infrastructure, it won't have the type of impact your asking about Stephen.

[FayeforCure]

Stephen, that's not what I am saying.

the article talks about HSR playing a role in innovation clusters and tech-based economic development. It shows that in Boston, we have a life sciences research cluster that presumably was furthered by the Acela availability.

What clusters might emerge in Tampa or Orlando remains to be seen, but it is intriguing to see how one type of innovation spurs other clustered innovation.

[Ocklawaha]

Well stated Stephen, I think we, You, Lake and I, all agree, that we'd cash in both the HSR and Sunrail for a comprehensive Amtrak Corridor System linking all of Florida's major cities with 5 - 10 round trips daily.

Faye, as an economist, I can't believe you would be led down this rosy path to HSR hell, without kicking in a few doors, and checking out the contents. Science Progress, not withstanding, I have yet to see you quote from: Progressive Railroading, Railway Age, Trains, International Railway Journal, Passenger Train Journal or Railway Magazines. This is the authoritative source on the industry, and they are not looking very favorably at the Orlando-Tampa HSR project. In fact, I have read over and over things like, "Florida has got to get it's act together," or "For a State that won't support rail to expect...etc..." Got to say, the Neanderthals in Tallahassee have asked for it.

The magazine you quote and the articles about Boston, are sort of like standing Orlando and Tampa next to Sao Paulo, Tokyo or Mexico City. Hardly the same thing. Boston has an entrenched culture of Mass Transit. Streetcars, subways, trolley bus, bus, BRT, water taxis, commuter rail, corridor rail, Amtrak long distance, and I have probably still left out a few. NOTHING like anything in Florida, not apples to oranges, more like watermelons, to grapes.

Lake, one thing Sunrail would do even in these depressed market times. Commuter rail, done well, (and for that price it better be done well), will enjoy much of the same TOD benefits that Light Rail attracts. Not as much as LRT maybe, but more then Amtrak, Skyways, or BRT will ever bring in. As you know, right in the middle of this huge economic dip, cities with new LRT lines are experiencing building booms. I don't think Orlando would be any different. Perhaps we should suggest a HSR network AL la MJ? Sounds like a story to me, since we'd actually include JACKSONVILLE!

OCKLAWAHA