Basic political economic theories and comparisons.

[stephendare]

Here we go notnow.

A topic all our own.

Lets start with the following list.  You are free to provide me with a similar list and I will do my best to answer it.

Which of the following do you think is a good idea or a bad idea on a scale of 1 - 10 , with 10 being the best possible idea, and 1 being the worst possible idea.

____A progressive or graduated income tax.

____Confiscation of the property of criminals, terrorists and non enemy combatants to be auctioned off and the proceeds donated to law enforcement or social work.

____The Banking system should be centralized, and the government should work with its own money and have the exclusive power to regulate all banks through the Fed.

____All transportation Issues are best handled by the government, either local or federal

____The United States should have the power to control the Airwaves and Communication infrastructure, especially as concerns terrorism, security and offending the public decency.

____Perhaps the governments should have to operate their own enterprises.   Maybe Roads should be built in house, and the government be responsible for the entire process from mixing the concrete to laying the cement.

____We should work to create farmlands and usable acreage out of wastelands and unexploited property as necessary, and our local authorities should work for the soil improvements and water management

____Everyone has an equal obligation to work for their own living. And this should be the law.  If people don't work, they shouldn't be entitled to any government help.

____We should work to modernize our agriculture along modern industrial lines, maybe even merge the ideas of industry and create an industrial fom of agriculture to mazimize our food supply.

____We should work to ease the differences between country and city by bringing the best of both forward.  People in small towns should have the same level of services and education as people in the cities, and City people should know where their foods and products actually come from.

____Free education for all children in public schools.

____Not only in the current crisis, but in all circumstances, children as young as 12 should not be forced to work in Industrial factories or dangerous circumstances.

____For kids who are not going to go on to college, we should have trade schools to teach them a way to make a living.

[NotNow]

Here we go notnow.

A topic all our own.

Lets start with the following list.  You are free to provide me with a similar list and I will do my best to answer it.

Which of the following do you think is a good idea or a bad idea on a scale of 1 - 10 , with 10 being the best possible idea, and 1 being the worst possible idea.

__2__A progressive or graduated income tax.

__2__Confiscation of the property of criminals, terrorists and non enemy combatants to be auctioned off and the proceeds donated to law enforcement or social work.

__3__The Banking system should be centralized, and the government should work with its own money and have the exclusive power to regulate all banks through the Fed.

__2__All transportation Issues are best handled by the government, either local or federal

__8__The United States should have the power to control the Airwaves and Communication infrastructure, especially as concerns terrorism, security and offending the public decency.

_2___Perhaps the governments should have to operate their own enterprises.   Maybe Roads should be built in house, and the government be responsible for the entire process from mixing the concrete to laying the cement.

__7__We should work to create farmlands and usable acreage out of wastelands and unexploited property as necessary, and our local authorities should work for the soil improvements and water management

__2__Everyone has an equal obligation to work for their own living. And this should be the law.  If people don't work, they shouldn't be entitled to any government help.

__8__We should work to modernize our agriculture along modern industrial lines, maybe even merge the ideas of industry and create an industrial fom of agriculture to mazimize our food supply.

__8__We should work to ease the differences between country and city by bringing the best of both forward.  People in small towns should have the same level of services and education as people in the cities, and City people should know where their foods and products actually come from.

__8__Free education for all children in public schools.

__10__Not only in the current crisis, but in all circumstances, children as young as 12 should not be forced to work in Industrial factories or dangerous circumstances.

__8__For kids who are not going to go on to college, we should have trade schools to teach them a way to make a living.

Geez, relax.  I have honey do's and a football game going on as well.

[NotNow]

_2__The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

__8_The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

_10__The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

__10_The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

__10__The right of every family to a decent home;

__10__The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

__10__The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

__10__The right to a good education.

Should these be legislated, and if so, how would you pay for it?

[NotNow]

By legislated, a guarantee by law.  Like the healthcare option.  If you feel that we should provide every citizen ( or everyone) with "medicare" like health insurance, then we write a law and we pay for it.  How?  Do you want ot legislate (or guarantee) all of these things?  Then the next logical question is hwo do we pay?  

I am firmly in fear of "unintended consequences".  The current attempts at public housing have certainly not decreased crime.  What do we do about those that refuse to participate in healthcare or housing programs?

[NotNow]

As I have stated before, I would support a catastrophic national health care system.  I think that the current SSI is the right vehicle for it.  If someone cannot work due to illness or disability (not alcoholism or drug addiction, not self induced disability, like suicide.  But I would include those that get hurt in accidents, even such things as skydiving or surfing.)  I think medicare is a good vehicle for the medical side of this.  I am thinking of citizens such as Faye' son, who I think that we as a society have an obligation to help.  I am not including those here illegally, but would include legal workers and immigrants.  I would include the costs as part of a national consumption tax.   I would not have a problem if states wanted to "opt out", or alternatively, if each state wanted to assert its own plan, along with its own financing.

I don't see how we can guarantee a home, or farm prices.

[NotNow]

I like to think of myself as a libertarian.  So I am about as anti communist as they come.  But I do appreciate some socialist ideas, such as the catastrophic medical help that I described.  I also believe in other non-libertarian ideas, such as mandatory military or government service.  I think that our Federal system of fifty States gives us a unique ability to allow the States to adjust the laws and regulation in their States to serve the citizens of that State.  As we have discussed many times, the US Constitution does a pretty good job of separating power.

[NotNow]

Well guided by your responses, you are probably a communist sympathiser.  The questions above were taken directly from the Communist Manifesto

(I left out two, in red)  But it seems like you don't have too much of a problem with the rest of the revolutionary demands you were declaiming as WRONG! in other posts.

You agree more with Communists than you would like to think.

And when you chunk in your line of work (sponsored by The State,) your retirement pension (not even included in the communist manifesto but included in Roosevelts second bill of rights) and your fraternal police order with its Labor Union Method of collective bargaining, you really are redder than most.   And I don't mean that as a slur or something to irritate you.

Well, I do work for the Government.  But I believe that Police will be needed in any economic system.  The Police & Fire Pension is a private pension and is not "government" funded.  The City contribution is simply the contribution of the employer, negotiated by contract and not legislated.  There is a difference.  As for collective bargaining, I can't argue that, it is a "labor" right that is widely used by public employees and I am the better for it personally.  Can it be misused?  Ask the UAW.

And best not mention your professed christianity, with its demands for charity and sacrifice for others.  Check out the Sermon on the Mount.  Pure Socialism.

The Christian act of charity is not required by the State.  It is an act of love and faith.  Socialism gives the State the power to take it.  That is not charity, it is taxation.  There is a difference.


The fact is that weve already adopted so much of the socialist and communist ideas into our way of life, that its very difficult to have a serious discussion.  The Mises institute is propbably the most anti communist organization out there, as JaxNative could probably tell you.

I can't argue with this, but we don't have to accept it as unchangeable.

The Ten Demands of the Communist Manifesto

Let me remind you of my scoring:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

You didn't include this, good idea because this is obviously a bad idea.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

I gave this a 2.  I like the Fair Tax.  Not so red.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

You left this one out too.  It's a 1.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Although you included criminals for obvious reasons, I gave this a 2 as well.  I believe in private property rights.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

I gave this a 3.  Still not looking too red here.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

You separated transportation (Igave it a 2) and communications ( I gave it an .  I went with the government on the airwaves because of the limited bandwidth and the resulting regulatory need.  I still think pretty non-red.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Again, you separated production ( I gave it a 2.) and cultivation of waste land ( I gave it a 7).  I support the cultivation of wasteland so that we can continue to feed the world.  I believe that this should be done through private enterprise, without government intervention.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

I gave this a 2 as well.  Still not a commie.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

The Communist Manifesto advocates relocating people.  You put:
__8__We should work to ease the differences between country and city by bringing the best of both forward.  People in small towns should have the same level of services and education as people in the cities, and City people should know where their foods and products actually come from. 

And I put an 8 to your statement, which is a lot different.  Same level of services and education is a looonnnggg way from "RELOCATION",  so still not a commie.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc.

I gave these an 8 and 10 respectively and I don't believe that this is so much a political value as much as it is a moral one.

So your wrong again StephenDare!.  I disagreed with almost every point.  I am not even remotely red!  And neither is the majority of the people in this country.

[NotNow]

_2__The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

__8_The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

_10__The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

__10_The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

__10__The right of every family to a decent home;

__10__The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

__10__The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

__10__The right to a good education.

Should these be legislated, and if so, how would you pay for it?

Now you, StephenDare! look as red as a Moscow sunset!  Just come on out of the closet, Comrade! 

[NotNow]

I agree with one thing you said StephenDare!, our answers speak for themselves.  I think your references to a 90% tax bracket and the advantages of unions are at least partially not valid because you are just looking at a snapshot in time, and no cause-effect relationship was established between those things and a successful economy. 

As I have stated before, no State practices pure capitalism and it is a sliding scale of regulation.  I think that I am on the lower end and that you are on the upper end, but that's OK, that is what America is all about.  I don't think FDR was right and I don't think Greenspan was completely right.I also agree that we are responsible to care for those less fortunate than us, but it is a Christian obligation and I do not support the government forcing us to do it.  What do you make of that study a few years ago that showed that conservatives as a group were more generous to charities than liberals?  Do you think it is due to religion?

[FayeforCure]

I also agree that we are responsible to care for those less fortunate than us, but it is a Christian obligation and I do not support the government forcing us to do it.  What do you make of that study a few years ago that showed that conservatives as a group were more generous to charities than liberals?  Do you think it is due to religion?

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but often times I see "charity giving" as a way to throw a bone. You won't belive how many "charity" orgs want Jason's name on their list, just to present it to government for grants, without providing any meaningful service.

It's a hit and miss business if one wants help from a "charity" org.

At least if government handles it, the rules and application are relatively consitent, and those in need wouldn't have to be relegated to becoming beggars,............those who receive most help are those who are best connected. Doesn't everyone need to recieve help on an equal basis?

[NotNow]

No, I don't think they do.  And as I stated in another thread, someone who is in your son's situation should be eligible for SSI and medicare.  A "catastrophic" heathcare system if you like.  Limited to major illness or injury.  Tough times are a different matter.  I think that unemployment, divorce, crime victims, etc. fits under a different catagory and I believe existing systems are adequate.

The big difference is "volountary".  Christian charity is not forced.  The State forces people to give their taxes.

[buckethead]

Here we go notnow.

A topic all our own.

Lets start with the following list.  You are free to provide me with a similar list and I will do my best to answer it.

Which of the following do you think is a good idea or a bad idea on a scale of 1 - 10 , with 10 being the best possible idea, and 1 being the worst possible idea.

__0__A progressive or graduated income tax.

__0__Confiscation of the property of criminals, terrorists and non enemy combatants to be auctioned off and the proceeds donated to law enforcement or social work.

__0__The Banking system should be centralized, and the government should work with its own money and have the exclusive power to regulate all banks through the Fed. The banks are the fed is the banks

__3__All transportation Issues are best handled by the government, either local or federal

__2__The United States should have the power to control the Airwaves and Communication infrastructure, especially as concerns terrorism, security and offending the public decency.

__4__Perhaps the governments should have to operate their own enterprises.   Maybe Roads should be built in house, and the government be responsible for the entire process from mixing the concrete to laying the cement.

__2__We should work to create farmlands and usable acreage out of wastelands and unexploited property as necessary, and our local authorities should work for the soil improvements and water management

__0__Everyone has an equal obligation to work for their own living. And this should be the law.  If people don't work, they shouldn't be entitled to any government help.

____We should work to modernize our agriculture along modern industrial lines, maybe even merge the ideas of industry and create an industrial fom of agriculture to mazimize our food supply. This one is a bit to vague to give a real response

____We should work to ease the differences between country and city by bringing the best of both forward.  People in small towns should have the same level of services and education as people in the cities, and City people should know where their foods and products actually come from. Huh???

__5__Free education for all children in public schools. Hell no if public schools are the only option

__5__Not only in the current crisis, but in all circumstances, children as young as 12 should not be forced to work in Industrial factories or dangerous circumstances. Of course kids should not be forced to work in factories but when you say in all circumstances it doesn't allow for a situation where a vast majority of able bodied adults are killed.

__7__For kids who are not going to go on to college, we should have trade schools to teach them a way to make a living. Or drug dealing courses. Perhaps rock star 101 or even....... politics.

[Ocklawaha]

Interesting post Buckethead, Might take a stab at it myself... But note that SOME questions I find subjective. For example under Marshall Law, or World War, YOUR DAMN STRAIGHT THE GOVERNMENT BETTER CONTROL ALL MEDIA! ... and more!

Did you know our submarines in the Pacific Theater of WWII, operated with virtual impunity from Japanese destroyer depth charge attacks? For nearly two years, our Wolf Packs, mostly out of Australia, (yes we learned wolf pack warfare from the Germans in WWI but the Japanese never used it) sunk the Japanese merchant marine in record numbers, as well as many of her war ships. On a certain submarine, on a certain war patrol, was an embedded news man. They took out a Japanese ship, which thrilled the guy with a great story... Oh but it got greater! Immediately two Japanese destroyers jumped on top of the sub with a blistering depth charge attack. Our Submariners just sat quietly while the reporter was sick with terror. The thunder of the charges, and the guy literally was having a breakdown on board. Finally one of the officers tried to help him, and whispered, "Shhhh, they can't hit us, because all of their depth charges are set at least 100' to shallow..." GREAT STORY! Next day it was headlines in New York AND Chicago, by late afternoon it was in Argentina (where the Japanese had an intelligence office), and by the NEXT day, every depth charge was set to kill US Sailors. 

In these cases, DAMN STRAIGHT, IT MUST BE CONTROLED. Seriously even as an old hippie, but also a Vietnam Veteran, had this happened on my boat, I'd have tossed that bastard into the sea.

Any other time, I would support complete media freedom, with oversight for criminal/sexual content.

OCKLAWAHA

[buckethead]

So you're giving it a two as well!

The government should also have control of airspace as well as aeronautic communication.

[NotNow]

The use of force by government is an accepted doctrine.  Both in military and civilian law enforcement.  As an Officer, I long ago accepted that the job involves exercising force and I believe that that use was well tempered both in my military career and law enforcement experience.  But that is physical force and the laws are dictated by our legislature, the representatives of the people.  The people or their reps can change those laws if they want to. 

What we are discussing here is the use of "charity" or "giving" to those less fortunate than us.  I absolutely agree that we should do that, whether your giving is based on your religious beliefs or for other personal reasons.  But I disagree that the government should be given any authority to tax us for such purposes.  Taxation is "force" under threat of arrest or fine.  My belief that we should provide "catastrophic" medical coverage is not based on "charity", but on the national need to operate our medical system efficiently and get routine care out of emergency rooms.

So the use of force by the State is not evil.  In fact, if I had my way, I would allow a greater use of force in criminal apprehension.  My qualms on force are when the State uses its legislative authority to take wealth away from citizens for effort s that it is not authorized or best suited to do.