Metro Jacksonville

QuoteThe digging, engineering and site work near the Jacksonville Equestrian Center is what the city is banking on as the first phase of moving the Greater Jacksonville Agricultural Fair away from downtown.

But first the city and fair â€" who are working against a 2014 deadline â€" need to make sure the move will work. That’s what a city-funded $400,000 engineering study that should be started in coming weeks will eventually determine.

A company managed by former city chief administrative officer Sam Mousa, JBC Planning and Engineering, will provide the city with estimates of how much it would cost to install utilities and prepare the land, as well as which parts of the 195-acre parcel would be best for the fair.

If it can be a go, the two sides will try to hammer out the final business details, including a land swap, figuring out who would pay for the cost of developing of the land and whether the fair board would take over operations of the equestrian center.

full story: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-09-15/story/jacksonville-pays-400000-study-relocating-fair

I'm not a fan.  Imo, moving a major player out of downtown and the urban core because we can't find a solution to a once a decade parking congestion problem is weak and does a disservice to downtown and the surrounding community.

Maybe it's just me but I'd leave the fair right where it is and invest money on extending fixed mass transit (streetcar, skyway, whatever) to the Sports District.  Kill two birds with one stone by providing an alternative option to driving/parking a car in the Sports District and encourage TOD at the same time.

It is amazing how many times this city will make you bang your head against the wall.

I don't have any problem with this. IMO the fair isn't that much of a big deal anymore. They took away the best ride years ago (Extasy). Hell, atleast the Equestrian Center will have something there for a change. I'm quite sure that many urban-holics will disagree with me; This is like the apocalypse for them.

It is now the Callahan fair. I hope it is a disaster and fails miserably. I usually do not wish for our city to fail even in matters where I would have chosen something different.  I just want my fair downtown.

I know I might be in the minority here... but Im inclined to be in favor of moving the Fairgrounds out to the Equestrian Center.  Certain (non-fair)events that run at the Fairgrounds would match up well with the facilities at the Equestrian Center, and events that wouldn't could be held at MetroPark.  Lord knows that venue needs more events.  Heck, the Equestrian Center needs more events too!

Most fairs around the state are not held in the urban core.  Downtown business really don't see increased business during the Fair's two weeks.  It's not like existing DT businesses will be losing money if the relocation happens.

BTW, the timing of the Fair was a CLEAR issue in the last Fla/Ga contract negotiations.

Pure unadulterated Bullshit! How many ways can the city screw the tax payers, downtown, and the city as a whole over? Please name one city that thrives on their urban neighborhoods alone?

It is now the Clay county fair.

Quote from: fieldafm on September 15, 2010, 08:21:11 PM
I know I might be in the minority here... but Im inclined to be in favor of moving the Fairgrounds out to the Equestrian Center.  Certain (non-fair)events that run at the Fairgrounds would match up well with the facilities at the Equestrian Center, and events that wouldn't could be held at MetroPark.  Lord knows that venue needs more events.  Heck, the Equestrian Center needs more events too!

Most fairs around the state are not held in the urban core.  Downtown business really don't see increased business during the Fair's two weeks.  It's not like existing DT businesses will be losing money if the relocation happens.

BTW, the timing of the Fair was a CLEAR issue in the last Fla/Ga contract negotiations.

I thought the Equestrian Center was a bad idea when it was originally built so I'm not suprised about a concept that tries to save this sinking ship at the potential expense of struggling inner city neighborhood.  The planner in me desires to look for a solution that leaves the facility in its current location and solves the occassional Sports District parking situation while utilizing the fairgrounds property to help anchor the Eastside, Sports District and Philip Randolph Blvd.  Does anyone know of successful urban fairgrounds remaining in the United States?  I'm interested to see their layout and location compared to our facility.

Quote from: uptowngirl on September 15, 2010, 08:22:19 PM
Pure unadulterated Bullshit!

Yup, that's what the fair is.....No name country bands, boring dog shows, smelly livestock, run of the mill rides, the same old cheesy "dunk the clown" type games, outrageous prices, typical overpriced food, never adding any new rides, what's there to miss? The fair's attendance continued to spiral downward from the glory 'Midnight Madness' days. I agree with everything what Field said. People are saying the typical "Anything that move outta DT is bad crap" Big deal!

I'm more Eastside focused than downtown. I wonder what happens once the fairgrounds move? Permanent suface parking?

The equestrian center is functioning well. I have been to several horse related events there and the venue is great. I just do not want our fair to be the same rural event as the Palatka fair.

The fair may be boring to grown adults, but I go with children in the neighborhood and it is still a wonderful event for them. move that out to clay county and there are a LOT of children that are not going to be able to partake of the fun. DT should not just be about bars and adult fun.

QuoteI'm more Eastside focused than downtown.

How exactly is the fairgrounds helping the neighborhood North of the Matthews Bridge ramp now?

Quotemove that out to clay county and there are a LOT of children that are not going to be able to partake of the fun.

The Equestrian Center is not in Clay County.

How is it hurting the neighborhood, which is an underpass walk away?  Can such an asset be better utilized to improve the environment around it? That's where my mind is at.

I went to the baker county fair one time so I guess I will know what to expect from this.

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 15, 2010, 08:29:25 PM
It is now the Clay county fair.

I would call it Clay County Fair Dos, since there already is a Clay County Fair.

I know that if they move the fair out there, I for one will stop going. I like having the fair at a close proximity to me, out all the way over there. no thanks

Quote from: thelakelander on September 15, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
How is it hurting the neighborhood, which is an underpass walk away?  Can such an asset be better utilized to improve the environment around it? That's where my mind is at.

For a neighborhood that has a now defunct commercial district, a park(with a public pool no less) and kids center built with city funds that is pretty underutilized... and is literally boxed in by heavy industrial on two sides, a railroad track siphoning it from Springfield on another side, and an elevated highway literally walling off the other side... how exactly would the fairgrounds staying or moving have any impact on these existing, more impactful problems?  

Besides the Agricultural Fair, there are only about 12 or so events held at the fairgrounds that don't do anything for the neighborhood now.  What negative effect would the Fair leaving have on the neighborhood?

LaVilla didn't exactly experience a rejuvination when the Conventer Center was built... and keep in mind the Jack Diamond-inspired massive destruction/land banking of the neighborhood didnt start until well after the CC was built.  

Quote from: hanjin1 on September 15, 2010, 09:35:37 PM
I know that if they move the fair out there, I for one will stop going. I like having the fair at a close proximity to me, out all the way over there. no thanks

Well, to play devil's advocate... about triple the amount of people surround the Equestrian Center than that of the current Fairgrounds.

Where is Stjr?????

$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

Quote from: fieldafm on September 15, 2010, 09:41:06 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 15, 2010, 09:13:41 PM
How is it hurting the neighborhood, which is an underpass walk away?  Can such an asset be better utilized to improve the environment around it? That's where my mind is at.

For a neighborhood that has a now defunct commercial district, a park(with a public pool no less) and kids center built with city funds that is pretty underutilized... and is literally boxed in by heavy industrial on two sides, a railroad track siphoning it from Springfield on another side, and an elevated highway literally walling off the other side... how exactly would the fairgrounds staying or moving have any impact on these existing, more impactful problems?  

Besides the Agricultural Fair, there are only about 12 or so events held at the fairgrounds that don't do anything for the neighborhood now.  What negative effect would the Fair leaving have on the neighborhood?

LaVilla didn't exactly experience a rejuvination when the Conventer Center was built... and keep in mind the Jack Diamond-inspired massive destruction/land banking of the neighborhood didnt start until well after the CC was built.  

The Jags don't do much for downtown or the surrounding neighborhoods but I would not advocate moving them out to Cecil Field either.  The urban core has steadily declined for well over 50 years now.  This is a time where we should be focusing on trying to preserve the assets that are left (despite the barriers we've constructed over the years to isolate certain areas) and find ways to better utilize and integrate them with their surroundings.  This is an easier method to vibrancy than attempting to attract and subsidize stuff not currently present.  Due to poor planning and land use practices, the fair goes not impact its surroundings the way it possibly could.  Outside of exposure to hundreds of thousands of people who otherwise would not step foot in the area, there would probably be limited negative impact if it left.  Nevertheless, the focus should not be on negative impact.  It should be on creating positive impact out of assets we fail to utilize properly.

Make no doubt about it, the fair remains one of the largest annual events in this city and despite declining attendance, still pulls in +450,000 people annually into the central city.  That's an existing asset.  We just need to focus on taking advantage of it.  With that said, we know the problems and we know one solution, which is to move it to the boonies.  Are there any other solutions worth exploring that leaves it right where it is while maximizing its potential?

QuoteAre there any other solutions worth exploring that leaves it right where it is while maximizing its potential?

You're much more intelligent on the subject than I, so what would you do differently?

Normally I would agree that we should use our existing assets, but the Fair has no discernable impact on the surrounding neighborhoods or DT businesses as it is.

The Fairgrounds has about 10-12 events a year.  The JVA and Baseball Grounds has about 20 times the number of events held at the Fairgounds.  Metro Park has slightly less events than the Fairgounds.  In keeping pace with your point, wouldn't a bigger impact be felt by trying to integrate these events with their surroundings?  These events have a slightly more measurable impact on downtown businesses than does the Fair.

Wouldn't pairing up two non-contributing facilities(Fairgrounds and EC) that would have natural cross-selling abilities have more of an impact on each other's success, while also solving a longstanding conflict with both the Jaguars and FLA/GA weekend.... than trying to integrate 10-12 events into a neighborhood that has had no measurable effect from these events for 20+ years, while still having a negative impact on say FLA/GA which has more of an economic impact on this city than the Fair?  Keep in mind, that the Fair staff would probably do a better job than SMG in marketing the EC b/c it will be their sole focus... not a small also ran in a large city contract like the EC currently is to SMG.

If MetroPark, an asset that sorely needs more events, could siphon off 2-3 events from the current Fairgrounds rotation while EC and the Fairgounds gain say maybe 5 more events in their new location b/c of better utilizing their similar assets... wouldn't that be a desirable effect?  All the while, no positive or negative impact will be felt by the Eastside neighborhood that hasn't had a positive or negative effect from the Fairgrounds in years.

You could give residents of the neighborhood free tickets to the Whale of a Sale, car shows, gun shows, and agricultural shows at the Fairgrounds and it still wouldn't solve the more pressing issues that effect the neighborhood now.

Thoughts?

QuoteYou're much more intelligent on the subject than I, so what would you do differently?

I'd probably look and create some sort of vision for that entire area before making any major financial or logistical decisions.  That means no move to Cecil, no metropolitan park upgrades or significant investment in the Shipyards until we have a better grasp on developing that area as a whole.

QuoteNormally I would agree that we should use our existing assets, but the Fair has no discernable impact on the surrounding neighborhoods or DT businesses as it is.

The Fairgrounds has about 10-12 events a year.  The JVM and Baseball Grounds has about 20 times the number of events held at the Fairgounds.  Metro Park has slightly less events than the Fairgounds.  In keeping pace with your point, wouldn't a bigger impact be felt by trying to integrate these events with their surroundings?  These events have a slightly more measurable impact on downtown businesses than does the Fair.

Can the fairgrounds be utilized to accommodate a year round use?  Are there successful examples of urban fairgrounds in the US?  Are they used year round for multiple things?  These are questions I'd try and get a grasp on first.  For all we know, maybe Metropolitan Park should not be the central focus of park space in the Sports District.  Instead, it could be the fairgrounds and the stadium's asphalt parking lots (as flex space).  I don't think I could really give you an answer one way or the other without looking at all of these issues in depth.

QuoteWouldn't pairing up two non-contributing facilities(Fairgrounds and EC) that would have natural cross-selling abilities have more of an impact on each other's success, while also solving a longstanding conflict with both the Jaguars and FLA/GA weekend.... than trying to integrate 10-12 events into a neighborhood that has had no measurable effect from these events for 20+ years, while still having a negative impact on say FLA/GA which has more of an economic impact on this city than the Fair?  Keep in mind, that the Fair staff would probably do a better job than SMG in marketing the EC b/c it will be their sole focus... not a small also ran in a large city contract like the EC currently is to SMG.

Looking at things from a holistic perspective, the EC, fairgrounds and an annual football game are only part of the issue. Community building and investment in existing and financial resources are another. For example, does moving a major event almost to Baldwin promote sprawl and further spreading out thin public resources to facilitate the things necessary to make a fairgrounds work at that particular site? There's also no transit to the EC. Does a location in a rural area of the county limit the fairground's accessibility?  In the 1990s, the Florida Citrus Festival moved from their historic Winter Haven grounds (boxed in by development but centralized and accessible to a larger population) to a larger rural site at the Auburndale Speedway. Attendance took a hit, it never recovered and the historic festival closed for good (after an 84-year run) a couple of years ago.  

As for the Florida/Georgia game situation, could fixed mass transit to the sports district be a viable solution? You could fund a line for the about the same amount of money it will take to relocate the fair alone.

QuoteIf MetroPark, an asset that sorely needs more events, could siphon off 2-3 events from the current Fairgrounds rotation while EC and the Fairgrounds gain say maybe 5 more events in their new location b/c of better utilizing their similar assets... wouldn't that be a desirable effect? All the while, no positive or negative impact will be felt by the Eastside neighborhood that hasn't had a positive or negative effect from the Fairgrounds in years.

I'm not even sure the events in Metropolitan Park should be held at that location. Like the Jazz Festival, most would probably be better off moving closer to the central Northbank, where there is more opportunity for long term commercial opportunities created by heavier pedestrian traffic flow within a compact area.

QuoteYou could give residents of the neighborhood free tickets to the Whale of a Sale, car shows, gun shows, and agricultural shows at the Fairgrounds and it still wouldn't solve the more pressing issues that effect the neighborhood now.

Thoughts?

Like downtown, there is no one trick pony solution for revitalization. However, continuing removing the few remaining economic assets from the general area does not help things. Instead it makes coming back more difficult.

Looking at things from the perspective of someone planning to move to the beach this sucks.

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 15, 2010, 09:52:41 PM
Where is Stjr?????

Well, since you asked....

Seems the Fair Association is an independent organization and its board/leaders are charged with doing what they think is best for the Fair Association.  As such, our opinions will not influence this decision unless such opinions succeed in badgering the City to tip the scales in favor of downtown with incentives for the FA to stay and/or disincentives to move.  Since the City wants them to move, don't count on that.

That leaves the FA to decide if it is in THEIR best strategic interests to stay downtown versus moving to the EC.  If their attendance has declined, as indicated in other posts, then they may be very much tempted to start fresh with a site that may be superior in their eyes:  New facilities, closer to their core audience,  a larger site, more parking, access to the EC's outstanding facilities to accommodate animal-related events and large seating shows, etc.

After years of refusing to consider moving, I think it is telling that the FA is now engaged in this process.  I would expect to see them moving if they City makes any half decent offer.

The silver lining is that, if the FA moves, the City will have more flexibility, derived from having that much more property downtown, to "master develop" it along the lines of Lake's suggestion.  Unfortunately, the City has proven to be lousy at developing downtown or any other area.

dingdingding. I'm a tadweebit soooprised that no one has lauded the (possible) decision from on high with cheers of (finally) an "amusement" park on the grounds of Cecil. LOL.
Lookout downtown. you're about to be emptier.
bang your head here.
$400,000.00 and still no rail to the sports complex!
O
M
Gawd

Nice to see that the current administration still has not changed their tune! When in doubt, do another study! More money wasted and people wonder why we are in the hole to the tune of $58 Million Dollars?

And property taxes are being raised.....

I can see this decision in a number of ways.  First, the fair is a unique and positive asset for downtown.  If only 1% of the annual visitors go to another downtown business for a bite to eat before or after the fair, that is a huge amount of money in the pockets of downtown business owners.  Moving the fair will take away one more thing the core has to offer our city.  The fact that our fair is urban distinguishes it from the thousands of other local fairs across the country.

Moving the fair does open up a lot of space for the city to develop a commercial area in the sports district.  Since the fairgrounds abuts a raised thoroughfare anyway, maybe a parking garage for the stadium could be built.  Then some of the stadium surface lots could be either turned to park space, grass flex space, or complementary commercial uses.  City Hall Pub is the only non city owned entertainment venue in the area.  If we could put another restaurant, bar, or anything around there, we could start to really build a Sports District, rather than our current collection of mostly empty buildings.  

A fairground may not be the highest and best use for the site, or it may need to be used as a support to another site that could serve a higher function.  In order for the area to have a regional appeal, we need to build up the sports district with complementary commercial uses that are busy 365 days a year.

Mass transit would solve many of the ills of our current situation, but I'm not holding my breath for it.  I think if the fair moves it will suffer, but they will be closer to their target market.  I'm not sure how many people commute in from the beach to go to the fair anyway.  

I don't want them to move the Fair for purely selfish reasons - I like that it's downtown, and I like roaming around that area. I will say that it is pure Jacksonville to want to get rid of something because "too many people are there for one weekend." The fact that they basically evacuate the city after Jags games goes along that same line of thinking.

Really, I take issue with the $400K they are paying for the study. That seems a little extreme.

It seems like the city is treating downtown like a musty old formal living room. Don't go in there unless you "need to use it" for something. Occasionally they think about changing out the drapes, but they tear 'em down and decide "let's just leave it like it is. Maybe throw up some cheap blinds."

Welcome to the Hilliard fair yall.

I do not want to see the fair leave Downtown. Once it does, I probably will not attend. If I wanted a country experience fair, I can go to the Clay County, Baker County, etc. fair. to me the Jacksonville fair is about the urban experience.

Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 15, 2010, 10:06:59 PM
$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

I would love to know the grand total Jacksonville has spent on all these go-nowhere "studies" over the last decade.  I'm sure it runs into the tens of millions.

Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 15, 2010, 10:06:59 PM
$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

I would agree, especially since it is being done by Sam Mousa and JB Coxwell, who you can bet will have the inside track on getting the site work contract if the Fair moves.  Wonder if the contract went through the bid process.  With Coxwell doing this study, the City is essentially helping them to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of the taxpayers. This study amounts to the first steps in preparing a sales pitch/bid proposal.  Even if the study is shared with other bidders, you can bet Coxwell will have superior knowledge of the site by doing the study.

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 16, 2010, 09:48:16 AM
Welcome to the Hilliard fair yall.

Fair is in Callahan....

Quote from: adamh0903 on September 16, 2010, 11:07:09 AM

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 16, 2010, 09:48:16 AM
Welcome to the Hilliard fair yall.

Fair is in Callahan....

Bright Lights Big City Baby

QuoteI'd probably look and create some sort of vision for that entire area before making any major financial or logistical decisions.  That means no move to Cecil, no metropolitan park upgrades or significant investment in the Shipyards until we have a better grasp on developing that area as a whole.

Succesful sports districts around the country rely on density and the district being a destination.  Scott James would probably have some good insight into that, b/c City Hall Pub realized early on that existing just to piggyback off of surrounding events is not a long term plan.  He would be a GREAT resource in this discussion.

In the same token, wouldn't having the Fairgrounds property vacant and available to be integrated into a wider plan for the district be more beneficial than trying to convince a private entity to conform to something they don't specialize in?  The Fair seems quite content actually operating the Fair and the other events they hold throughout the year.  

Quote
Can the fairgrounds be utilized to accommodate a year round use?  Are there successful examples of urban fairgrounds in the US?  Are they used year round for multiple things?  These are questions I'd try and get a grasp on first.  For all we know, maybe Metropolitan Park should not be the central focus of park space in the Sports District.  Instead, it could be the fairgrounds and the stadium's asphalt parking lots (as flex space).  I don't think I could really give you an answer one way or the other without looking at all of these issues in depth.

Well, Im 100% against the city spending any of that ~$3mm on 'upgrading' Metro Park.  I agree that money should be used as part of a bigger focus on that area(which includes the Shipyards) and integrating it with the DT core.  Metro Park is a 2nd rate citizen to St Augustine Ampitheatre... and honestly, that's disgraceful given the competing facilities' amenities.  And now, two of the Park's biggest events(Jazz Fest and Planet Fest) are gone.  

But, the Fair is a private entity.  MetroPark is COJ.  You can't really force a private organization into some master plan.  Like it or not, Metro Park is here to stay... so how is turning our back to MetroPark any more of wasting an asset then relocating the Agricultural Fair to a rural area that has natural cross-selling abilities with a complementing facility?

It seems then, in keeping with your goal of creating a master vision for the entire area, that the City would be better off with a blank slate on that site?  At the same time, another City asset(EC) gets a complementary partner more willing and able to market the facility?

QuoteFor example, does moving a major event almost to Baldwin promote sprawl and further spreading out thin public resources to facilitate the things necessary to make a fairgrounds work at that particular site?

So, how did the Convention Center promote a more vibrant LaVilla neighborhood?  It didn't.  Residential isn't going to follow these types of establishments.  

QuoteThere's also no transit to the EC. Does a location in a rural area of the county limit the fairground's accessibility?  

There are also no busses that run to the current Fairgrounds site after what, 9pm?  And yet, Midnight Madness is one of the more popular nights on the Fair's schedule.

QuoteIn the 1990s, the Florida Citrus Festival moved from their historic Winter Haven grounds (boxed in by development but centralized and accessible to a larger population) to a larger rural site at the Auburndale Speedway. Attendance took a hit, it never recovered and the historic festival closed for good (after an 84-year run) a couple of years ago.  

Well, that area is rural and the surrounding cities are really a part of one big regional draw along SR27 and I4.  That region seems to still support the Polk County, Highland County, and Hardee County Fairs.  The Florida Citrus Festival became irrelevant and had financial difficulties, totally unrelated to their site choices.  Tampa and Tallahassee seem to have very successful agricultural fairs outside of their urban core.

QuoteAs for the Florida/Georgia game situation, could fixed mass transit to the sports district be a viable solution?

Im certainly not against extending fixed mass transit to the stadium in any way, shape, or form... but FL/GA is a destination draw.  The majority of people aren't coming in from the surrounding urban neighborhoods to attend the game.  Instead they're coming en masse from outside the city.  That's like saying the way to relieve congestion along SR27 for the 24 Hour of Sebring race is to run more busses to the speedway.  BTW, I don't mean that in a condescending way.  I just don't see fixed mass transit being a root cause or solution to UF and UGA's(along with the Jaguars, remember they are forced to vacate three home dates centered around FL/GA weekend) specific concerns.

QuoteI'm not even sure the events in Metropolitan Park should be held at that location. Like the Jazz Festival, most would probably be better off moving closer to the central Northbank, where there is more opportunity for long term commercial opportunities created by heavier pedestrian traffic flow within a compact area.

Again, you can't promote not turning our back on one asset and subsequently turn your back on another... especially one where COJ has control over.

QuoteLike downtown, there is no one trick pony solution for revitalization.

That, there can be no disagreement with.  :)

First, $400k for a study of this nature (in a down economy) seems about 200-300k too high. 


I have mixed feelings about this idea.  Ordinarily, it would be good that the city would control the last big chunk of land in that district, but it has not done well with large parcels in DT already (LaVilla, Brooklyn).  Plus there is already 42 prime acres sitting empty on the Southbank (JEA) and soon a similiar sized parcel on the Northbank (Shipyards).  Taken together, the city has a huge percentage of DT under it's own ownership, yet all we ever see are sh*t projects like the Main St. Pocket Park. 

I agree that the Sports District would ideally be made into a year-round destination in it's own right, which would probably involve a higher and better use of the Fair site.  But, I have no confidence that the city can pull that off. 

And NO more Garages until the current ones are filled.   

Quote from: fieldafm on September 16, 2010, 01:00:33 PM
Successful sports districts around the country rely on density and the district being a destination.  Scott James would probably have some good insight into that, b/c City Hall Pub realized early on that existing just to piggyback off of surrounding events is not a long term plan.  He would be a GREAT resource in this discussion.

In the same token, wouldn't having the Fairgrounds property vacant and available to be integrated into a wider plan for the district be more beneficial than trying to convince a private entity to conform to something they don't specialize in?  The Fair seems quite content actually operating the Fair and the other events they hold throughout the year.

Keep in mind, if you want your urban core to become a successful vibrant one, you're going to have to work and partner with the private sector.  Whether it's commuter rail, bringing in retail or whatever, you're going to have to have private buy in.  The way you get that is to make them a part of the process to help develop an end product that benefits all parties.  

Also, I don't see why you can't have density if the fairgrounds remained in the current location.  Its only 17 acres.  Major cities have much larger open spaces in dense compact areas.  The issue is year-round utilization.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/859431000_eZk6W-M.jpg)

QuoteBut, the Fair is a private entity.  MetroPark is COJ.  You can't really force a private organization into some master plan.

No need to force anyone.  They should be a player in the development of that area just like Maxwell House, the North Florida Shipyards and other invested entities.  Again, a master plan or vision is worthless without private sector participation or buy in.

QuoteLike it or not, Metro Park is here to stay... so how is turning our back to MetroPark any more of wasting an asset then relocating the Agricultural Fair to a rural area that has natural cross-selling abilities with a complementing facility?

The park can stay but that doesn't mean its the best location for many of the special events that take place there.  A good example of this is the jazz festival's shift from Metropark to downtown.  Also, why must an agricultural fair be shifted to a place destined to become an industrial park and tract home community?

QuoteIt seems then, in keeping with your goal of creating a master vision for the entire area, that the City would be better off with a blank slate on that site?  At the same time, another City asset(EC) gets a complementary partner more willing and able to market the facility?

You're never off better with COJ having a blank slate at things in an urban area.  One of the special qualities of urbanism is that there is no blank slate or uniformity.  Diversity is what makes these places unique.

QuoteSo, how did the Convention Center promote a more vibrant LaVilla neighborhood?  It didn't.  Residential isn't going to follow these types of establishments.

I don't understand your point.  Nevertheless, I can easily show you that area's commercial component could benefit from the traffic that heads in and out of the sports district.  This, in turn can enhance the area's quality of life, which can attract residential infill throughout the neighborhood.  

Quote

QuoteIn the 1990s, the Florida Citrus Festival moved from their historic Winter Haven grounds (boxed in by development but centralized and accessible to a larger population) to a larger rural site at the Auburndale Speedway. Attendance took a hit, it never recovered and the historic festival closed for good (after an 84-year run) a couple of years ago.  

Well, that area is rural and the surrounding cities are really a part of one big regional draw along SR27 and I4.  That region seems to still support the Polk County, Highland County, and Hardee County Fairs.  The Florida Citrus Festival became irrelevant and had financial difficulties, totally unrelated to their site choices.  Tampa and Tallahassee seem to have very successful agricultural fairs outside of their urban core.

That particular area is more developed than Cecil.  The cities just aren't consolidated with the county.  Nevertheless, why not have a successful "urban" agricultural fair within the city?  I think that it is telling that the current location was fine until the city proposed heavily subsidizing their move to Cecil.  Throw me $8 million and I'll move out there two.  ;D

QuoteIm certainly not against extending fixed mass transit to the stadium in any way, shape, or form... but FL/GA is a destination draw.  The majority of people aren't coming in from the surrounding urban neighborhoods to attend the game.  Instead they're coming en masse from outside the city.

You can drive right into town to the JTC and catch the skyway or streetcar over to the Sports District.  I would assume this is what people do who attend major venues in cities like Chicago, DC and San Francisco.  In fact, this is what people are now doing in Uptown Charlotte.

Quote

QuoteI'm not even sure the events in Metropolitan Park should be held at that location. Like the Jazz Festival, most would probably be better off moving closer to the central Northbank, where there is more opportunity for long term commercial opportunities created by heavier pedestrian traffic flow within a compact area.

Again, you can't promote not turning our back on one asset and subsequently turn your back on another... especially one where COJ has control over.

Forcing events that complement pedestrian connectivity into an isolated space because that space is there is a liability, not an asset.  Metropolitan Park is a bad location for events that should be stimulating synergy within an urban setting.  Nevertheless, this does not mean turning your back to Metro Park.  It would probably be a great site for urban recreational fields.  Remember connectivity is the key.  The more you strip these things away, the faster the free fall to blighted hell will be.  

QuoteI don't understand your point.  Nevertheless, I can easily show you that area's commercial component could benefit from the traffic that heads in and out of the sports district.  This, in turn can enhance the area's quality of life, which can attract residential infill throughout the neighborhood.  

You asked the question as to whether or not relocating the Fairgounds to the Equestrian Center would further promote sprawl in that area... I was simply saying that it would do no more to promote sprawl on the Westside than the Convention Center promotes dense development in LaVilla.  

QuoteForcing events that complement pedestrian connectivity into an isolated space because that space is there is a liability, not an asset.  Metropolitan Park is a bad location for events that should be stimulating synergy within an urban setting.  Nevertheless, this does not mean turning your back to Metro Park.  It would probably be a great site for urban recreational fields.  Remember connectivity is the key.  The more you strip these things away, the faster the free fall to blighted hell will be.  

Metro Park used to have much more events than it currently holds.  Metro Park was at first applauded for its use(remember it was Metro Park that made the Jazz Festival what it is today... it used to be held out in Mayport), now there just aren't events being held there.  Perhaps getting SMG out of the EC and into promoting MP would be a good idea.  The St Augustine Ampitheatre(or 1800AskGary Ampitheatre) sure aren't hurting.

Quote from: fieldafm on September 16, 2010, 02:28:56 PM

QuoteI don't understand your point.  Nevertheless, I can easily show you that area's commercial component could benefit from the traffic that heads in and out of the sports district.  This, in turn can enhance the area's quality of life, which can attract residential infill throughout the neighborhood.  

You asked the question as to whether or not relocating the Fairgounds to the Equestrian Center would further promote sprawl in that area... I was simply saying that it would do no more to promote sprawl on the Westside than the Convention Center promotes dense development in LaVilla.

Although I don't consider this to be the major issue, you do have the finanical impact of extending and upgrading public infrastructure and roads around the site to accommodate the fair's needs.    

Quote

QuoteForcing events that complement pedestrian connectivity into an isolated space because that space is there is a liability, not an asset.  Metropolitan Park is a bad location for events that should be stimulating synergy within an urban setting.  Nevertheless, this does not mean turning your back to Metro Park.  It would probably be a great site for urban recreational fields.  Remember connectivity is the key.  The more you strip these things away, the faster the free fall to blighted hell will be.  

Metro Park used to have much more events than it currently holds.  Metro Park was at first applauded for its use(remember it was Metro Park that made the Jazz Festival what it is today... it used to be held out in Mayport), now there just aren't events being held there.  Perhaps getting SMG out of the EC and into promoting MP would be a good idea.  The St Augustine Ampitheatre(or 1800AskGary Ampitheatre) sure aren't hurting.

It may have been applauded for its use but DT continued to decline due to a lack of focus on connectivity and clustering complementing uses, which is the point I was trying to make regarding the nature of events in it.

Quote from: stjr on September 16, 2010, 10:52:25 AM

Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 15, 2010, 10:06:59 PM
$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

I would agree, especially since it is being done by Sam Mousa and JB Coxwell, who you can bet will have the inside track on getting the site work contract if the Fair moves.  Wonder if the contract went through the bid process.  With Coxwell doing this study, the City is essentially helping them to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of the taxpayers. This study amounts to the first steps in preparing a sales pitch/bid proposal.  Even if the study is shared with other bidders, you can bet Coxwell will have superior knowledge of the site by doing the study.

Mmmhmmm.  Exactly what I was thinking. 

QuoteDT continued to decline due to a lack of focus on connectivity and clustering complementing uses, which is the point I was trying to make regarding the nature of events in it.

On that we agree 100%.  If you're goal is to have a more vibrant sports district(the now defunct commercial corridor along A Phillip Randolph is begging for less vacancy) then you're going to have to attract more events to Metro Park.  MP has its own set of problems as far as isolation and connectivity, but ultimately you're still going to have to attract more events to it.  And that doesn't require $3 million worth of city-funded 'improvements' to accomplish.

Although I think we ultimately share valid concerns about connectivity and isolation issues regarding the Sports District and DT in general, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Fair being moved to the EC.  According to one of your earlier posts you said yourself you wouldn't surmise a negative impact from the Fairgrounds being moved, and I think that if you move a non-contributing entity adjacent to an entity that has complementing uses then its a win for the city in general.  The Fair organization runs the EC, which is an area they specialize in, and thereby two underutilized assets can create a synergy that doesn't exist independent of each other.  Sometimes its easy to forget on this site that the city is bigger than just DT.  While the decline of DT is one of the BIGGEST issues facing this city today, us Westsiders need some attention too :)

It's always a pleasure discussing these issues with you.  You're intelligent, see the big picture, you don't complain but never offer solutions like many people in this city do, and you don't take my disagreements personally.... or at least you've never called me a moron to my face, lol.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 16, 2010, 09:44:09 AM
I can see this decision in a number of ways.  First, the fair is a unique and positive asset for downtown.  If only 1% of the annual visitors go to another downtown business for a bite to eat before or after the fair, that is a huge amount of money in the pockets of downtown business owners.    

In order for the area to have a regional appeal, we need to build up the sports district with complementary commercial uses that are busy 365 days a year.

I think if the fair moves it will suffer, but they will be closer to their target market.  I'm not sure how many people commute in from the beach to go to the fair anyway.  

DT businesses don't see an uptick of business b/c of the Fair, but they sure as hell do for FL/GA weekend.

I think you're dead on about 'complementary commercial uses that are busy 365 days a year'.  Im still pretty convinced the Shipyards site is a major component of that.. the site is indeed technically outside of DVI's boundaries, so it along with the Sports District has no dedicated advocate group.

And, about the beach... I would say the number of people that commute from the beach to the Fair, are about the same number of people across the ditch that go to the beach for the St Paul's Fair... which is to say very little.

Quote from: fieldafm on September 16, 2010, 04:28:20 PM
Although I think we ultimately share valid concerns about connectivity and isolation issues regarding the Sports District and DT in general, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Fair being moved to the EC.  According to one of your earlier posts you said yourself you wouldn't surmise a negative impact from the Fairgrounds being moved, and I think that if you move a non-contributing entity adjacent to an entity that has complementing uses then its a win for the city in general.  The Fair organization runs the EC, which is an area they specialize in, and thereby two underutilized assets can create a synergy that doesn't exist independent of each other.  Sometimes its easy to forget on this site that the city is bigger than just DT.  While the decline of DT is one of the BIGGEST issues facing this city today, us Westsiders need some attention too :)

The only area where we don't see eye to eye on this particular issue is that I believe you can take a none contributing existing asset and transform it into a contributing one.  I've seen this done in many other places and believe it can happen in Jax too.  As for the Westside and Cecil, I'd like to see that area prosper as well.  Just not through cannibalizing another local neighborhood in the process.

QuoteIt's always a pleasure discussing these issues with you.  You're intelligent, see the big picture, you don't complain but never offer solutions like many people in this city do, and you don't take my disagreements personally.... or at least you've never called me a moron to my face, lol.

Ditto.  I don't take anything said on these debates personally.  I love to participate in them because it helps me see certain situations and topics through the eyes of others.

lake I concur! Whether or not you, or anyone else agree's, the differing viewpoints bring a context that would not be achievable without it! If I disagree with anything or anyone here, it matter not to me......just one more condiment in the overall flavor..........and when all agree about the same thing, we can build a concensus!

This is an old argument.  This is a no brain er.  Why would the city throw away money for such a ridiculous study.  It's only two weeks people.  What happend to the strive to become a world class city and we can't handle a little country fair without imploding?

400,000 huh,,and we need taxes raised right. I see why this city is in the shape its in.

Does anybody know where the Jacksonville fairgrounds were before the 1950s?

It just occurred to me why the name "Sam Mousa" was familiar. I believe he was involved with the early Ship Yards work and the current new Court House! Seems to me that he has been in the perimeter around alot of the City Projects that are high dollar and have taxpayer funds involved. I guess being a past City Administrator allows a person to be in the inner circle.........does anyone else know of projects he was involved in?

Quote from: stephendare on September 15, 2010, 08:25:17 PM
There arent any buses to the equestrian center.

No but rumor has it that there is one hell of a herd of deer in the neighborhood!

OCKLAWAHA

I know..........JTA will have an Equestian Trolley, designed to look like a horse or a deer for a few extra dollars!

Just b/c I always think something visual adds to the conversation:


(http://www.coj.net/NR/rdonlyres/ecclxam4qyj7u5ufwlqvltl6jtv4momkfbcmeb3mpen3kmwf5yczl2gpopzlrv253x3k6asmajychc36rk56yuvqiqh/SportsComplex3LR.jpg)


(http://www.onhdevelopment.com/images/east-jax-map-big.jpg)


(http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID31694/images/equestrian_center.gif)

TBH, even during the heydays of Midnight Madness at the fair, while living on the westside of Jacksonville, I rarely went to the fair.

A couple of thoughts here regarding this possible move:
The Greater Jacksonville Agricultural Fair is not an Urban Fair. The entertainment is usually 80% country acts, with 10% R&B/Soul and 10% old rock act.
There are livestock contests, arts&crafts and horticulture exhibits.
Oh, and rides.

People are focusing on the rides aspect, quick, raise your hand if you went to the fair to watch the bovine competition. How many did?

Keeping with the them of the Agricultural fair, it does fit better at the Equestrian Center.
That said, would I visit it being that I live in Clay now? Nope, if I want to see horses, I go out to my friends houses, or spend time at my mothers house out at Diamond D Ranch.

On the other hand, what people think of the most for the fair is the rides and games and food.
Why not start one that focuses only on those?

^^^Well said. I totally agree. I wonder how many kids are really gonna be yearning and reminiscing the fair if it moves (which is still in the city limits BTW) esp. the many kids who have been to places like Busch Gardens, Universal, WDW, Wild Adventures, etc. Suddenly people wanna act as if the GJAF is some world class event that will be a blackeye for the city if it goes to the Westside. I'm with Jandar, I think that the EC seems better equipped for this type of event. Besides you urban-holics can dream about some restaurant complex (or something) replacing the fairgrounds.

 Then let them move on their own dime. ;D

There's no denying that 400K seems like way too much for this study, but then again this city is known for wasting money, like the Shipyards, and the Coliseum renovation/demolition etc. I know that it sounds like I'm a walking contradiction. LOL. I guess I wasn't thinking about all of that money wasted on this thing; Although in the big picture, I would think that the operating costs of running the fair in the Westside would be cheaper than the current DT fairground location. The indoor seating would definitely be a plus at the EC.

The $400k is pennies compared to the $8 million taxpayers would have to pay to entice the fair to move to Cecil.

Quote from: jandar on September 17, 2010, 09:50:33 AM
TBH, even during the heydays of Midnight Madness at the fair, while living on the westside of Jacksonville, I rarely went to the fair.

A couple of thoughts here regarding this possible move:
The Greater Jacksonville Agricultural Fair is not an Urban Fair. The entertainment is usually 80% country acts, with 10% R&B/Soul and 10% old rock act.

"Old rock acts." Is Eddie Money going to be content with performing at the equestrian center? I think we really need to get his thoughts on the matter.

Quote from: Bativac on September 17, 2010, 11:35:51 AM

Quote from: jandar on September 17, 2010, 09:50:33 AM
TBH, even during the heydays of Midnight Madness at the fair, while living on the westside of Jacksonville, I rarely went to the fair.

A couple of thoughts here regarding this possible move:
The Greater Jacksonville Agricultural Fair is not an Urban Fair. The entertainment is usually 80% country acts, with 10% R&B/Soul and 10% old rock act.

"Old rock acts." Is Eddie Money going to be content with performing at the equestrian center? I think we really need to get his thoughts on the matter.

http://www.jacksonvillefair.com/fair/entertainment.php

Yeah, I don't think any of this year's entertainment would sell out even a small club tbh.
I mean Loving Spoonful had some great songs, back in the 60s.

Quote from: jandar on September 17, 2010, 02:25:59 PM
Yeah, I don't think any of this year's entertainment would sell out even a small club tbh.
I mean Loving Spoonful had some great songs, back in the 60s.

The club couldn't be too small.  You need room on the stage for their wheelchairs and walkers. ;D

Quote from: finehoe on September 18, 2010, 12:38:20 AM

Quote from: jandar on September 17, 2010, 02:25:59 PM
Yeah, I don't think any of this year's entertainment would sell out even a small club tbh.
I mean Loving Spoonful had some great songs, back in the 60s.

The club couldn't be too small.  You need room on the stage for their wheelchairs and walkers. ;D

Now that's ugly.

QuoteI thought the Equestrian Center was a bad idea when it was originally built so I'm not suprised about a concept that tries to save this sinking ship at the potential expense of struggling inner city neighborhood.  The planner in me desires to look for a solution that leaves the facility in its current location and solves the occassional Sports District parking situation while utilizing the fairgrounds property to help anchor the Eastside, Sports District and Philip Randolph Blvd.  Does anyone know of successful urban fairgrounds remaining in the United States?  I'm interested to see their layout and location compared to our facility.

Rather than comparing Jax's fair to other fairs in the area like Bradford or Clay Counties, I think it's better to compare them to state fairs. And when you see the successful state fairgrounds it's the same as with the successful convention centers it's about complementing uses and accessibility. Most are easily accessible to the interstate. Ours isn't really. Also, the fact that the equestrian center is far removed from the fairgrounds seems like it could set up a situation where they almost compete with each other for events. Given that we are pretty much equidistant from both ends of Florida it would seem that Jacksonville would be a good location for statewide livestock shows and that type of thing, but I didn't see anything like that at either venue. I think that syncing up could be a good thing because they could build to suit for that sort of gig and with that new road being built it would link right into I-10. However, it seems like the money could be better spent right now on other things and it would leave a big gap in the middle of a struggling area. Costs of moving outweigh the benefits.

Quote from: Jaxson on September 16, 2010, 07:43:48 PM
Does anybody know where the Jacksonville fairgrounds were before the 1950s?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/846641917_AMnC6-M.jpg)
We were "NASCAR" before there was a NASCAR but then we gave that away too because it was reported that some heathens were using the races for... OMG! G A M B L I N G !

Yes, from downtown take the Brentwood/Fairgrounds streetcar line to Andrew Jackson school on North Main, your trolley will turn left behind the school and continue west on Woodbine to the end of the road at Golfair. This is where the streetcar loops around, but the race track and fair grounds are right there where appropriately a funeral home stands today. From the end of the car line (west end of Woodbine) all the way to Moncrief Road and from Golfair all the way up to Gateway Mall. The stretch along Woodbine is easy to ID as it is much higher then the other streets and dotted with many period business buildings. The crown jewels of France from the revolution are buried somewhere in the west end of the property but thats another story.

OCKLAWAHA

Nice find Ock.  Btw, the original fairgrounds were located within walking distance of the current site.  Jacob S. Parker's 1876 site was off present day Talleyrand Avenue between Marshall and Jessie Streets.  That neighborhood was originally known as the City of Fairfield and Parker (the fair's founder) was its first mayor.

I wonder who, within the City, decided this was worth $400K to investigate? I would have looked into it for only $100K!

I've read this thread and hope I am not missing something.. .
I think I understand correctly what happened the other night at the city council meeting.
Was ALL funding stripped from the Equestrian Center for this next upcoming fiscal year?
If so, what could $400 large truly be covering?
money laundering?

No money was removed from the Equestrian Center.  It was one very late night last minute proposal that was quickly shot down.  As Ron Littlepage aptly noted there are dozens of events already scheduled there, the staff that takes care of it also runs the aquatic center and adjacent park and would still be needed and, most importantly, open or not, the taxpayers would still be paying the tens of millions in bonds issued to build it.  So, closing it would just mean the city spending much of the same money with no benefit for it.  Thus, they left it untouched.

ricker..............that thought did cross my mind but more than likely one final pay off to those connected to the inner circle! That Horse Joint costs us something like $641,000 a year to run. Ron Littlepaiges wife is connected with it and I have allways been confused about that place! If it can not stand on its own, without taxpayer money, why is it still running? Somehow I don't think the downtown core really gives a darn about  that place and I wonder why it has not been sold? City strapped for cash..........sell it! Enought acreage DR Horton, or someone like them, would love to put up some Condo's overlooking all of those tree's......then the taxpayers could pay for the roads and everything else that would have to go in! I wonder if Paul Harden was connected with this from the start?

I do not get this place either! At first I thought maybe you could rent trail horses or take riding lessons or something, but no....it seems to be a place for people who already own horses to bring their horses or watch horse shows or competitions?
Ot would be really cool if they HAD horses for rent or lessons out there, then more of the population could use it, otherwise it seems like a park made for a very small segment of the public to use.

I don't believe this very expensive center was ever intended to be utilized by the mainstream folks like us. I never really understood why the city paid (and continues) to pay for this, it seems to be it should be a privately owned center.

^That's probably one of the reasons the city wants to give the fairgrounds $8 million to move and take it over.  Although the fairgrounds is fine where its currently located, that's a tough offer to ignore.