City spends $400,000 on study to move fair from downtown

[JeffreyS]

I went to the baker county fair one time so I guess I will know what to expect from this.

[hanjin1]

It is now the Clay county fair.

I would call it Clay County Fair Dos, since there already is a Clay County Fair.

I know that if they move the fair out there, I for one will stop going. I like having the fair at a close proximity to me, out all the way over there. no thanks

[fieldafm]

How is it hurting the neighborhood, which is an underpass walk away?  Can such an asset be better utilized to improve the environment around it? That's where my mind is at.

For a neighborhood that has a now defunct commercial district, a park(with a public pool no less) and kids center built with city funds that is pretty underutilized... and is literally boxed in by heavy industrial on two sides, a railroad track siphoning it from Springfield on another side, and an elevated highway literally walling off the other side... how exactly would the fairgrounds staying or moving have any impact on these existing, more impactful problems?  

Besides the Agricultural Fair, there are only about 12 or so events held at the fairgrounds that don't do anything for the neighborhood now.  What negative effect would the Fair leaving have on the neighborhood?

LaVilla didn't exactly experience a rejuvination when the Conventer Center was built... and keep in mind the Jack Diamond-inspired massive destruction/land banking of the neighborhood didnt start until well after the CC was built.  

[fieldafm]

I know that if they move the fair out there, I for one will stop going. I like having the fair at a close proximity to me, out all the way over there. no thanks

Well, to play devil's advocate... about triple the amount of people surround the Equestrian Center than that of the current Fairgrounds.

[Coolyfett]

Where is Stjr??

[Miss Fixit]

$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

[thelakelander]

How is it hurting the neighborhood, which is an underpass walk away?  Can such an asset be better utilized to improve the environment around it? That's where my mind is at.

For a neighborhood that has a now defunct commercial district, a park(with a public pool no less) and kids center built with city funds that is pretty underutilized... and is literally boxed in by heavy industrial on two sides, a railroad track siphoning it from Springfield on another side, and an elevated highway literally walling off the other side... how exactly would the fairgrounds staying or moving have any impact on these existing, more impactful problems?  

Besides the Agricultural Fair, there are only about 12 or so events held at the fairgrounds that don't do anything for the neighborhood now.  What negative effect would the Fair leaving have on the neighborhood?

LaVilla didn't exactly experience a rejuvination when the Conventer Center was built... and keep in mind the Jack Diamond-inspired massive destruction/land banking of the neighborhood didnt start until well after the CC was built.  

The Jags don't do much for downtown or the surrounding neighborhoods but I would not advocate moving them out to Cecil Field either.  The urban core has steadily declined for well over 50 years now.  This is a time where we should be focusing on trying to preserve the assets that are left (despite the barriers we've constructed over the years to isolate certain areas) and find ways to better utilize and integrate them with their surroundings.  This is an easier method to vibrancy than attempting to attract and subsidize stuff not currently present.  Due to poor planning and land use practices, the fair goes not impact its surroundings the way it possibly could.  Outside of exposure to hundreds of thousands of people who otherwise would not step foot in the area, there would probably be limited negative impact if it left.  Nevertheless, the focus should not be on negative impact.  It should be on creating positive impact out of assets we fail to utilize properly.

Make no doubt about it, the fair remains one of the largest annual events in this city and despite declining attendance, still pulls in +450,000 people annually into the central city.  That's an existing asset.  We just need to focus on taking advantage of it.  With that said, we know the problems and we know one solution, which is to move it to the boonies.  Are there any other solutions worth exploring that leaves it right where it is while maximizing its potential?

[fieldafm]

Are there any other solutions worth exploring that leaves it right where it is while maximizing its potential?

You're much more intelligent on the subject than I, so what would you do differently?

Normally I would agree that we should use our existing assets, but the Fair has no discernable impact on the surrounding neighborhoods or DT businesses as it is.

The Fairgrounds has about 10-12 events a year.  The JVA and Baseball Grounds has about 20 times the number of events held at the Fairgounds.  Metro Park has slightly less events than the Fairgounds.  In keeping pace with your point, wouldn't a bigger impact be felt by trying to integrate these events with their surroundings?  These events have a slightly more measurable impact on downtown businesses than does the Fair.

Wouldn't pairing up two non-contributing facilities(Fairgrounds and EC) that would have natural cross-selling abilities have more of an impact on each other's success, while also solving a longstanding conflict with both the Jaguars and FLA/GA weekend.... than trying to integrate 10-12 events into a neighborhood that has had no measurable effect from these events for 20+ years, while still having a negative impact on say FLA/GA which has more of an economic impact on this city than the Fair?  Keep in mind, that the Fair staff would probably do a better job than SMG in marketing the EC b/c it will be their sole focus... not a small also ran in a large city contract like the EC currently is to SMG.

If MetroPark, an asset that sorely needs more events, could siphon off 2-3 events from the current Fairgrounds rotation while EC and the Fairgounds gain say maybe 5 more events in their new location b/c of better utilizing their similar assets... wouldn't that be a desirable effect?  All the while, no positive or negative impact will be felt by the Eastside neighborhood that hasn't had a positive or negative effect from the Fairgrounds in years.

You could give residents of the neighborhood free tickets to the Whale of a Sale, car shows, gun shows, and agricultural shows at the Fairgrounds and it still wouldn't solve the more pressing issues that effect the neighborhood now.

Thoughts?

[thelakelander]

You're much more intelligent on the subject than I, so what would you do differently?

I'd probably look and create some sort of vision for that entire area before making any major financial or logistical decisions.  That means no move to Cecil, no metropolitan park upgrades or significant investment in the Shipyards until we have a better grasp on developing that area as a whole.

Normally I would agree that we should use our existing assets, but the Fair has no discernable impact on the surrounding neighborhoods or DT businesses as it is.

The Fairgrounds has about 10-12 events a year.  The JVM and Baseball Grounds has about 20 times the number of events held at the Fairgounds.  Metro Park has slightly less events than the Fairgounds.  In keeping pace with your point, wouldn't a bigger impact be felt by trying to integrate these events with their surroundings?  These events have a slightly more measurable impact on downtown businesses than does the Fair.

Can the fairgrounds be utilized to accommodate a year round use?  Are there successful examples of urban fairgrounds in the US?  Are they used year round for multiple things?  These are questions I'd try and get a grasp on first.  For all we know, maybe Metropolitan Park should not be the central focus of park space in the Sports District.  Instead, it could be the fairgrounds and the stadium's asphalt parking lots (as flex space).  I don't think I could really give you an answer one way or the other without looking at all of these issues in depth.

Wouldn't pairing up two non-contributing facilities(Fairgrounds and EC) that would have natural cross-selling abilities have more of an impact on each other's success, while also solving a longstanding conflict with both the Jaguars and FLA/GA weekend.... than trying to integrate 10-12 events into a neighborhood that has had no measurable effect from these events for 20+ years, while still having a negative impact on say FLA/GA which has more of an economic impact on this city than the Fair?  Keep in mind, that the Fair staff would probably do a better job than SMG in marketing the EC b/c it will be their sole focus... not a small also ran in a large city contract like the EC currently is to SMG.

Looking at things from a holistic perspective, the EC, fairgrounds and an annual football game are only part of the issue. Community building and investment in existing and financial resources are another. For example, does moving a major event almost to Baldwin promote sprawl and further spreading out thin public resources to facilitate the things necessary to make a fairgrounds work at that particular site? There's also no transit to the EC. Does a location in a rural area of the county limit the fairground's accessibility?  In the 1990s, the Florida Citrus Festival moved from their historic Winter Haven grounds (boxed in by development but centralized and accessible to a larger population) to a larger rural site at the Auburndale Speedway. Attendance took a hit, it never recovered and the historic festival closed for good (after an 84-year run) a couple of years ago.  

As for the Florida/Georgia game situation, could fixed mass transit to the sports district be a viable solution? You could fund a line for the about the same amount of money it will take to relocate the fair alone.

If MetroPark, an asset that sorely needs more events, could siphon off 2-3 events from the current Fairgrounds rotation while EC and the Fairgrounds gain say maybe 5 more events in their new location b/c of better utilizing their similar assets... wouldn't that be a desirable effect? All the while, no positive or negative impact will be felt by the Eastside neighborhood that hasn't had a positive or negative effect from the Fairgrounds in years.

I'm not even sure the events in Metropolitan Park should be held at that location. Like the Jazz Festival, most would probably be better off moving closer to the central Northbank, where there is more opportunity for long term commercial opportunities created by heavier pedestrian traffic flow within a compact area.

You could give residents of the neighborhood free tickets to the Whale of a Sale, car shows, gun shows, and agricultural shows at the Fairgrounds and it still wouldn't solve the more pressing issues that effect the neighborhood now.

Thoughts?

Like downtown, there is no one trick pony solution for revitalization. However, continuing removing the few remaining economic assets from the general area does not help things. Instead it makes coming back more difficult.

[JeffreyS]

Looking at things from the perspective of someone planning to move to the beach this sucks.

[stjr]

Where is Stjr??

Well, since you asked....

Seems the Fair Association is an independent organization and its board/leaders are charged with doing what they think is best for the Fair Association.  As such, our opinions will not influence this decision unless such opinions succeed in badgering the City to tip the scales in favor of downtown with incentives for the FA to stay and/or disincentives to move.  Since the City wants them to move, don't count on that.

That leaves the FA to decide if it is in THEIR best strategic interests to stay downtown versus moving to the EC.  If their attendance has declined, as indicated in other posts, then they may be very much tempted to start fresh with a site that may be superior in their eyes:  New facilities, closer to their core audience,  a larger site, more parking, access to the EC's outstanding facilities to accommodate animal-related events and large seating shows, etc.

After years of refusing to consider moving, I think it is telling that the FA is now engaged in this process.  I would expect to see them moving if they City makes any half decent offer.

The silver lining is that, if the FA moves, the City will have more flexibility, derived from having that much more property downtown, to "master develop" it along the lines of Lake's suggestion.  Unfortunately, the City has proven to be lousy at developing downtown or any other area.

[ricker]

dingdingding. I'm a tadweebit soooprised that no one has lauded the (possible) decision from on high with cheers of (finally) an "amusement" park on the grounds of Cecil. LOL.
Lookout downtown. you're about to be emptier.
bang your head here.
$400,000.00 and still no rail to the sports complex!
O
M
Gawd

[CS Foltz]

Nice to see that the current administration still has not changed their tune! When in doubt, do another study! More money wasted and people wonder why we are in the hole to the tune of $58 Million Dollars?

[uptowngirl]

And property taxes are being raised.....

[Captain Zissou]

I can see this decision in a number of ways.  First, the fair is a unique and positive asset for downtown.  If only 1% of the annual visitors go to another downtown business for a bite to eat before or after the fair, that is a huge amount of money in the pockets of downtown business owners.  Moving the fair will take away one more thing the core has to offer our city.  The fact that our fair is urban distinguishes it from the thousands of other local fairs across the country.

Moving the fair does open up a lot of space for the city to develop a commercial area in the sports district.  Since the fairgrounds abuts a raised thoroughfare anyway, maybe a parking garage for the stadium could be built.  Then some of the stadium surface lots could be either turned to park space, grass flex space, or complementary commercial uses.  City Hall Pub is the only non city owned entertainment venue in the area.  If we could put another restaurant, bar, or anything around there, we could start to really build a Sports District, rather than our current collection of mostly empty buildings.  

A fairground may not be the highest and best use for the site, or it may need to be used as a support to another site that could serve a higher function.  In order for the area to have a regional appeal, we need to build up the sports district with complementary commercial uses that are busy 365 days a year.

Mass transit would solve many of the ills of our current situation, but I'm not holding my breath for it.  I think if the fair moves it will suffer, but they will be closer to their target market.  I'm not sure how many people commute in from the beach to go to the fair anyway.