City spends $400,000 on study to move fair from downtown

[Bativac]

I don't want them to move the Fair for purely selfish reasons - I like that it's downtown, and I like roaming around that area. I will say that it is pure Jacksonville to want to get rid of something because "too many people are there for one weekend." The fact that they basically evacuate the city after Jags games goes along that same line of thinking.

Really, I take issue with the $400K they are paying for the study. That seems a little extreme.

It seems like the city is treating downtown like a musty old formal living room. Don't go in there unless you "need to use it" for something. Occasionally they think about changing out the drapes, but they tear 'em down and decide "let's just leave it like it is. Maybe throw up some cheap blinds."

[JeffreyS]

Welcome to the Hilliard fair yall.

[fsujax]

I do not want to see the fair leave Downtown. Once it does, I probably will not attend. If I wanted a country experience fair, I can go to the Clay County, Baker County, etc. fair. to me the Jacksonville fair is about the urban experience.

[finehoe]

$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

I would love to know the grand total Jacksonville has spent on all these go-nowhere "studies" over the last decade.  I'm sure it runs into the tens of millions.

[stjr]

$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

I would agree, especially since it is being done by Sam Mousa and JB Coxwell, who you can bet will have the inside track on getting the site work contract if the Fair moves.  Wonder if the contract went through the bid process.  With Coxwell doing this study, the City is essentially helping them to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of the taxpayers. This study amounts to the first steps in preparing a sales pitch/bid proposal.  Even if the study is shared with other bidders, you can bet Coxwell will have superior knowledge of the site by doing the study.

[adamh0903]

Welcome to the Hilliard fair yall.

Fair is in Callahan....

[JeffreyS]

Welcome to the Hilliard fair yall.

Fair is in Callahan....

Bright Lights Big City Baby

[fieldafm]

I'd probably look and create some sort of vision for that entire area before making any major financial or logistical decisions.  That means no move to Cecil, no metropolitan park upgrades or significant investment in the Shipyards until we have a better grasp on developing that area as a whole.

Succesful sports districts around the country rely on density and the district being a destination.  Scott James would probably have some good insight into that, b/c City Hall Pub realized early on that existing just to piggyback off of surrounding events is not a long term plan.  He would be a GREAT resource in this discussion.

In the same token, wouldn't having the Fairgrounds property vacant and available to be integrated into a wider plan for the district be more beneficial than trying to convince a private entity to conform to something they don't specialize in?  The Fair seems quite content actually operating the Fair and the other events they hold throughout the year.  

Can the fairgrounds be utilized to accommodate a year round use?  Are there successful examples of urban fairgrounds in the US?  Are they used year round for multiple things?  These are questions I'd try and get a grasp on first.  For all we know, maybe Metropolitan Park should not be the central focus of park space in the Sports District.  Instead, it could be the fairgrounds and the stadium's asphalt parking lots (as flex space).  I don't think I could really give you an answer one way or the other without looking at all of these issues in depth.

Well, Im 100% against the city spending any of that ~$3mm on 'upgrading' Metro Park.  I agree that money should be used as part of a bigger focus on that area(which includes the Shipyards) and integrating it with the DT core.  Metro Park is a 2nd rate citizen to St Augustine Ampitheatre... and honestly, that's disgraceful given the competing facilities' amenities.  And now, two of the Park's biggest events(Jazz Fest and Planet Fest) are gone.  

But, the Fair is a private entity.  MetroPark is COJ.  You can't really force a private organization into some master plan.  Like it or not, Metro Park is here to stay... so how is turning our back to MetroPark any more of wasting an asset then relocating the Agricultural Fair to a rural area that has natural cross-selling abilities with a complementing facility?

It seems then, in keeping with your goal of creating a master vision for the entire area, that the City would be better off with a blank slate on that site?  At the same time, another City asset(EC) gets a complementary partner more willing and able to market the facility?

For example, does moving a major event almost to Baldwin promote sprawl and further spreading out thin public resources to facilitate the things necessary to make a fairgrounds work at that particular site?

So, how did the Convention Center promote a more vibrant LaVilla neighborhood?  It didn't.  Residential isn't going to follow these types of establishments.  

There's also no transit to the EC. Does a location in a rural area of the county limit the fairground's accessibility?  

There are also no busses that run to the current Fairgrounds site after what, 9pm?  And yet, Midnight Madness is one of the more popular nights on the Fair's schedule.

In the 1990s, the Florida Citrus Festival moved from their historic Winter Haven grounds (boxed in by development but centralized and accessible to a larger population) to a larger rural site at the Auburndale Speedway. Attendance took a hit, it never recovered and the historic festival closed for good (after an 84-year run) a couple of years ago.  

Well, that area is rural and the surrounding cities are really a part of one big regional draw along SR27 and I4.  That region seems to still support the Polk County, Highland County, and Hardee County Fairs.  The Florida Citrus Festival became irrelevant and had financial difficulties, totally unrelated to their site choices.  Tampa and Tallahassee seem to have very successful agricultural fairs outside of their urban core.

As for the Florida/Georgia game situation, could fixed mass transit to the sports district be a viable solution?

Im certainly not against extending fixed mass transit to the stadium in any way, shape, or form... but FL/GA is a destination draw.  The majority of people aren't coming in from the surrounding urban neighborhoods to attend the game.  Instead they're coming en masse from outside the city.  That's like saying the way to relieve congestion along SR27 for the 24 Hour of Sebring race is to run more busses to the speedway.  BTW, I don't mean that in a condescending way.  I just don't see fixed mass transit being a root cause or solution to UF and UGA's(along with the Jaguars, remember they are forced to vacate three home dates centered around FL/GA weekend) specific concerns.

I'm not even sure the events in Metropolitan Park should be held at that location. Like the Jazz Festival, most would probably be better off moving closer to the central Northbank, where there is more opportunity for long term commercial opportunities created by heavier pedestrian traffic flow within a compact area.

Again, you can't promote not turning our back on one asset and subsequently turn your back on another... especially one where COJ has control over.

Like downtown, there is no one trick pony solution for revitalization.

That, there can be no disagreement with.  

[vicupstate]

First, $400k for a study of this nature (in a down economy) seems about 200-300k too high. 


I have mixed feelings about this idea.  Ordinarily, it would be good that the city would control the last big chunk of land in that district, but it has not done well with large parcels in DT already (LaVilla, Brooklyn).  Plus there is already 42 prime acres sitting empty on the Southbank (JEA) and soon a similiar sized parcel on the Northbank (Shipyards).  Taken together, the city has a huge percentage of DT under it's own ownership, yet all we ever see are sh*t projects like the Main St. Pocket Park. 

I agree that the Sports District would ideally be made into a year-round destination in it's own right, which would probably involve a higher and better use of the Fair site.  But, I have no confidence that the city can pull that off. 

And NO more Garages until the current ones are filled.   

[thelakelander]

Successful sports districts around the country rely on density and the district being a destination.  Scott James would probably have some good insight into that, b/c City Hall Pub realized early on that existing just to piggyback off of surrounding events is not a long term plan.  He would be a GREAT resource in this discussion.

In the same token, wouldn't having the Fairgrounds property vacant and available to be integrated into a wider plan for the district be more beneficial than trying to convince a private entity to conform to something they don't specialize in?  The Fair seems quite content actually operating the Fair and the other events they hold throughout the year.

Keep in mind, if you want your urban core to become a successful vibrant one, you're going to have to work and partner with the private sector.  Whether it's commuter rail, bringing in retail or whatever, you're going to have to have private buy in.  The way you get that is to make them a part of the process to help develop an end product that benefits all parties.  

Also, I don't see why you can't have density if the fairgrounds remained in the current location.  Its only 17 acres.  Major cities have much larger open spaces in dense compact areas.  The issue is year-round utilization.

But, the Fair is a private entity.  MetroPark is COJ.  You can't really force a private organization into some master plan.

No need to force anyone.  They should be a player in the development of that area just like Maxwell House, the North Florida Shipyards and other invested entities.  Again, a master plan or vision is worthless without private sector participation or buy in.

Like it or not, Metro Park is here to stay... so how is turning our back to MetroPark any more of wasting an asset then relocating the Agricultural Fair to a rural area that has natural cross-selling abilities with a complementing facility?

The park can stay but that doesn't mean its the best location for many of the special events that take place there.  A good example of this is the jazz festival's shift from Metropark to downtown.  Also, why must an agricultural fair be shifted to a place destined to become an industrial park and tract home community?

It seems then, in keeping with your goal of creating a master vision for the entire area, that the City would be better off with a blank slate on that site?  At the same time, another City asset(EC) gets a complementary partner more willing and able to market the facility?

You're never off better with COJ having a blank slate at things in an urban area.  One of the special qualities of urbanism is that there is no blank slate or uniformity.  Diversity is what makes these places unique.

So, how did the Convention Center promote a more vibrant LaVilla neighborhood?  It didn't.  Residential isn't going to follow these types of establishments.

I don't understand your point.  Nevertheless, I can easily show you that area's commercial component could benefit from the traffic that heads in and out of the sports district.  This, in turn can enhance the area's quality of life, which can attract residential infill throughout the neighborhood.  

In the 1990s, the Florida Citrus Festival moved from their historic Winter Haven grounds (boxed in by development but centralized and accessible to a larger population) to a larger rural site at the Auburndale Speedway. Attendance took a hit, it never recovered and the historic festival closed for good (after an 84-year run) a couple of years ago.  

Well, that area is rural and the surrounding cities are really a part of one big regional draw along SR27 and I4.  That region seems to still support the Polk County, Highland County, and Hardee County Fairs.  The Florida Citrus Festival became irrelevant and had financial difficulties, totally unrelated to their site choices.  Tampa and Tallahassee seem to have very successful agricultural fairs outside of their urban core.

That particular area is more developed than Cecil.  The cities just aren't consolidated with the county.  Nevertheless, why not have a successful "urban" agricultural fair within the city?  I think that it is telling that the current location was fine until the city proposed heavily subsidizing their move to Cecil.  Throw me $8 million and I'll move out there two.  

Im certainly not against extending fixed mass transit to the stadium in any way, shape, or form... but FL/GA is a destination draw.  The majority of people aren't coming in from the surrounding urban neighborhoods to attend the game.  Instead they're coming en masse from outside the city.

You can drive right into town to the JTC and catch the skyway or streetcar over to the Sports District.  I would assume this is what people do who attend major venues in cities like Chicago, DC and San Francisco.  In fact, this is what people are now doing in Uptown Charlotte.

I'm not even sure the events in Metropolitan Park should be held at that location. Like the Jazz Festival, most would probably be better off moving closer to the central Northbank, where there is more opportunity for long term commercial opportunities created by heavier pedestrian traffic flow within a compact area.

Again, you can't promote not turning our back on one asset and subsequently turn your back on another... especially one where COJ has control over.

Forcing events that complement pedestrian connectivity into an isolated space because that space is there is a liability, not an asset.  Metropolitan Park is a bad location for events that should be stimulating synergy within an urban setting.  Nevertheless, this does not mean turning your back to Metro Park.  It would probably be a great site for urban recreational fields.  Remember connectivity is the key.  The more you strip these things away, the faster the free fall to blighted hell will be.  

[fieldafm]

I don't understand your point.  Nevertheless, I can easily show you that area's commercial component could benefit from the traffic that heads in and out of the sports district.  This, in turn can enhance the area's quality of life, which can attract residential infill throughout the neighborhood.  

You asked the question as to whether or not relocating the Fairgounds to the Equestrian Center would further promote sprawl in that area... I was simply saying that it would do no more to promote sprawl on the Westside than the Convention Center promotes dense development in LaVilla.  

Forcing events that complement pedestrian connectivity into an isolated space because that space is there is a liability, not an asset.  Metropolitan Park is a bad location for events that should be stimulating synergy within an urban setting.  Nevertheless, this does not mean turning your back to Metro Park.  It would probably be a great site for urban recreational fields.  Remember connectivity is the key.  The more you strip these things away, the faster the free fall to blighted hell will be.  

Metro Park used to have much more events than it currently holds.  Metro Park was at first applauded for its use(remember it was Metro Park that made the Jazz Festival what it is today... it used to be held out in Mayport), now there just aren't events being held there.  Perhaps getting SMG out of the EC and into promoting MP would be a good idea.  The St Augustine Ampitheatre(or 1800AskGary Ampitheatre) sure aren't hurting.

[thelakelander]

I don't understand your point.  Nevertheless, I can easily show you that area's commercial component could benefit from the traffic that heads in and out of the sports district.  This, in turn can enhance the area's quality of life, which can attract residential infill throughout the neighborhood.  

You asked the question as to whether or not relocating the Fairgounds to the Equestrian Center would further promote sprawl in that area... I was simply saying that it would do no more to promote sprawl on the Westside than the Convention Center promotes dense development in LaVilla.

Although I don't consider this to be the major issue, you do have the finanical impact of extending and upgrading public infrastructure and roads around the site to accommodate the fair's needs.    

Forcing events that complement pedestrian connectivity into an isolated space because that space is there is a liability, not an asset.  Metropolitan Park is a bad location for events that should be stimulating synergy within an urban setting.  Nevertheless, this does not mean turning your back to Metro Park.  It would probably be a great site for urban recreational fields.  Remember connectivity is the key.  The more you strip these things away, the faster the free fall to blighted hell will be.  

Metro Park used to have much more events than it currently holds.  Metro Park was at first applauded for its use(remember it was Metro Park that made the Jazz Festival what it is today... it used to be held out in Mayport), now there just aren't events being held there.  Perhaps getting SMG out of the EC and into promoting MP would be a good idea.  The St Augustine Ampitheatre(or 1800AskGary Ampitheatre) sure aren't hurting.

It may have been applauded for its use but DT continued to decline due to a lack of focus on connectivity and clustering complementing uses, which is the point I was trying to make regarding the nature of events in it.

[Miss Fixit]

$400,000 is a bit much to pay for an engineering "study" for a project of this nature.

I would agree, especially since it is being done by Sam Mousa and JB Coxwell, who you can bet will have the inside track on getting the site work contract if the Fair moves.  Wonder if the contract went through the bid process.  With Coxwell doing this study, the City is essentially helping them to gain a competitive advantage at the expense of the taxpayers. This study amounts to the first steps in preparing a sales pitch/bid proposal.  Even if the study is shared with other bidders, you can bet Coxwell will have superior knowledge of the site by doing the study.

Mmmhmmm.  Exactly what I was thinking. 

[fieldafm]

DT continued to decline due to a lack of focus on connectivity and clustering complementing uses, which is the point I was trying to make regarding the nature of events in it.

On that we agree 100%.  If you're goal is to have a more vibrant sports district(the now defunct commercial corridor along A Phillip Randolph is begging for less vacancy) then you're going to have to attract more events to Metro Park.  MP has its own set of problems as far as isolation and connectivity, but ultimately you're still going to have to attract more events to it.  And that doesn't require $3 million worth of city-funded 'improvements' to accomplish.

Although I think we ultimately share valid concerns about connectivity and isolation issues regarding the Sports District and DT in general, we'll just have to agree to disagree about the Fair being moved to the EC.  According to one of your earlier posts you said yourself you wouldn't surmise a negative impact from the Fairgrounds being moved, and I think that if you move a non-contributing entity adjacent to an entity that has complementing uses then its a win for the city in general.  The Fair organization runs the EC, which is an area they specialize in, and thereby two underutilized assets can create a synergy that doesn't exist independent of each other.  Sometimes its easy to forget on this site that the city is bigger than just DT.  While the decline of DT is one of the BIGGEST issues facing this city today, us Westsiders need some attention too

It's always a pleasure discussing these issues with you.  You're intelligent, see the big picture, you don't complain but never offer solutions like many people in this city do, and you don't take my disagreements personally.... or at least you've never called me a moron to my face, lol.

[fieldafm]

I can see this decision in a number of ways.  First, the fair is a unique and positive asset for downtown.  If only 1% of the annual visitors go to another downtown business for a bite to eat before or after the fair, that is a huge amount of money in the pockets of downtown business owners.    

In order for the area to have a regional appeal, we need to build up the sports district with complementary commercial uses that are busy 365 days a year.

I think if the fair moves it will suffer, but they will be closer to their target market.  I'm not sure how many people commute in from the beach to go to the fair anyway.  

DT businesses don't see an uptick of business b/c of the Fair, but they sure as hell do for FL/GA weekend.

I think you're dead on about 'complementary commercial uses that are busy 365 days a year'.  Im still pretty convinced the Shipyards site is a major component of that.. the site is indeed technically outside of DVI's boundaries, so it along with the Sports District has no dedicated advocate group.

And, about the beach... I would say the number of people that commute from the beach to the Fair, are about the same number of people across the ditch that go to the beach for the St Paul's Fair... which is to say very little.