Metro Jacksonville

Of all interested property owners, residential and commerical, in the neighborhood?

Not hosted by any particular neighborhood organization?

Just a general meeting, sans organization/business titles and labels?

At a "neutral" site?

A time to speak face to face and have honest discussions. Leave your baggage at the door?

With an unaffiliated moderator, to ensure appropriateness and disuade bias?



In the 2 years I've lived here, of which I've been really paying attention the last year or so.....there has been  more miscommunication, misunderstanding, intentional dishonesty, hurt feelings, over sensitivity, negative gossip, rumor spreading, and distrust between neighbors than I ever, EVER, could have expected.

This is counterproductive at best and, in my view, is an unnecessary counter-weight to all the good things here.

Speaking of of good things......the hardwork, time spent, money spent, energy spent, enthusiasm, vision, kindness, camaraderie, volunteerism, community involvement, attention to detail, and sense of togetherness by the neighborhood has far exceeded my expectations as well.

We are all adults here.

We all want a better Springfield.

The details may be different, but the general goal is the same. At least i'd like to think so.

I have no idea whatsoever if anyone would be interested, but i'm more than willing to find a location, time, and date, and moderator for such a meeting.

Heck, i'll provide refreshments too (as i'm sure it would be lengthy).



If anyone is interested, sincerely interested, please say so, either publically or in PM.

If enough are interested then I'll be more than happy to set it all up.



Thanks.

You know whats funny. I see a large number of the Springfield posters on here at almost every event. First Fridays, or community clean ups, no matter what organization they like to participate in.

Oddly, I almost never see the people who are stirring up all the drama.

community meetings scare me...remember the last time?

That being said, I'm up for it.

Quote from: Dan B on January 13, 2010, 05:34:48 PM
You know whats funny. I see a large number of the Springfield posters on here at almost every event. First Fridays, or community clean ups, no matter what organization they like to participate in.

Oddly, I almost never see the people who are stirring up all the drama.

Those in question would probably be a little more likely to attend community meetings, if certain people didn't make up bogus assault charges and trespass complaints against whoever disagrees with them.

I mean, you know, just a thought here...but if you want to encourage participation, then the threat of arrest normally isn't the most effective method. LOL

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 13, 2010, 06:10:47 PM

Quote from: Dan B on January 13, 2010, 05:34:48 PM
You know whats funny. I see a large number of the Springfield posters on here at almost every event. First Fridays, or community clean ups, no matter what organization they like to participate in.

Oddly, I almost never see the people who are stirring up all the drama.

Those in question would probably be a little more likely to attend community meetings, if certain people didn't make up bogus assault charges and trespass complaints against whoever disagrees with them.

I mean, you know, just a thought here...but if you want to encourage participation, then the threat of arrest normally isn't the most effective method. LOL

You'll find me and Joe at the Community Garden, helping out (unless they are pressured to keep us away), at the Women's Club helping with their project (unless they are pressured to keep us away), at 3 Layers having coffee, at the Thrift store on Main Street, building a boat on Walnut, going to a SAMBA meeting,

...and working for a living building a beautiful staircase downtown...

what's the point here?  & btw, we have participated in a community clean up.

Oh, and helping out at St. Mary's on Laura.

Bring a keyboard so everyone can talk normaly behind it.

Quote from: Sportmotor on January 13, 2010, 06:33:11 PM
Bring a keyboard so everyone can talk normaly behind it.

may the quickest typist win!

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2010, 06:37:19 PM
Seriously?  FSU813?  A meeting hosted by yourself would be like Golda Meir accepting an invitation hosted by uncle adolph.

Still, he is tryin to do something as insane as it might be, have to give him an honest effort star.
Attend Stephen, cant hurt and no since on passing on an oppratunity to discuss things in an adult manner

FSU813
Sounds like a great idea.

fsu813,

Bless you for saying what I have been thinking for so long, through many months of these threads, that I long ago got tired of reading.  

While I have never lived in Springfield, I do have a boatload of my emotions and money invested there.  I long ago accepted that many outsiders will miss the potential of Springfield, and take every opportunity to disparge it.  It has been FAR MORE disappointing, that those INSIDE Springfield cannot seem to stop from doing significantly more damage INTERNALLY.

If those with a vested interest in Springfield cannot get on the same page, specifically, trying to build consensus and pull in the SAME direction, then Springfield's potential will be held back more than ever.  A true shame if it continues in that path.  

yeah not interested, got tivo to keep me occupied, the neighborhood is a lost cause anyway, sounds like a waste of time.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 13, 2010, 06:10:47 PM

Quote from: Dan B on January 13, 2010, 05:34:48 PM
You know whats funny. I see a large number of the Springfield posters on here at almost every event. First Fridays, or community clean ups, no matter what organization they like to participate in.

Oddly, I almost never see the people who are stirring up all the drama.

Those in question would probably be a little more likely to attend community meetings, if certain people didn't make up bogus assault charges and trespass complaints against whoever disagrees with them.

I mean, you know, just a thought here...but if you want to encourage participation, then the threat of arrest normally isn't the most effective method. LOL

Good point.

QuoteYou know whats funny. I see a large number of the Springfield posters on here at almost every event. First Fridays, or community clean ups, no matter what organization they like to participate in.

Oddly, I almost never see the people who are stirring up all the drama.

And even more oddly, I have attended such events.  However, I have attended such events and talked about kids and, in my case, grandkids and somehow later got accused of going just to further my cause.  I go to meetings and Louise and Company seems to like to send over little old ladies to tell me to leave rather than do it themselves. While there are a few worth talking to at these events and some I miss talking too, I rarely see the point of going anymore.

Joe, since when you do you give a crap what people think?

Quote from: Dan B on January 13, 2010, 08:26:21 PM
Joe, since when you do you give a crap what people think?

good one.  he really doesn't.  it is a great strength of his.

Quote from: sheclown on January 13, 2010, 08:31:36 PM

Quote from: Dan B on January 13, 2010, 08:26:21 PM
Joe, since when you do you give a crap what people think?

good one.  he really doesn't.  it is a great strength of his.

I agree, and thats really my point.

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2010, 08:36:37 PM
its a pretty weak point.  One that people use most often to justify bullying others.

I will take your word on that, you know far more about bullying than I do.

Quote from: Dan B on January 13, 2010, 08:26:21 PM
Joe, since when you do you give a crap what people think?

I don't think you have a whole lotta choice when people are coming up and saying "You have to leave now".

we still haven't heard any new dates or times for SHARP.

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2010, 06:53:15 PM

Quote from: Sportmotor on January 13, 2010, 06:45:16 PM

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2010, 06:37:19 PM
Seriously?  FSU813?  A meeting hosted by yourself would be like Golda Meir accepting an invitation hosted by uncle adolph.

Still, he is tryin to do something as insane as it might be, have to give him an honest effort star.
Attend Stephen, cant hurt and no since on passing on an oppratunity to discuss things in an adult manner

1.  there isnt a meeting planned.
2.  There will eventually be a board that reflects community consensus, and I will no doubt attend those meetings.  There is only one group of people that cannot get along with anyone else in the neighborhood or the city and that is the leadership group of SPAR.  All the rest of us get along and generally share a common vision.  It is inevitable that that sore will come to a head and burst.  In my opinion better sooner than later.  One thing is for sure:  As an organization, SPAR will not last very long being at war with everyone around it.

As a matter of fact, SPAR has already imploded and failed a couple of times over its history because of this very tendency.  While the name 'SPAR' continues to be used, this is actually the third organization to use it.

Jason, I know you don't really understand whats at stake for business people, or how much money and sorrow these terrible people have cost the community around them, but this isnt simply a matter of well lets kiss and make up.

The neighborhood is going to have to find a new balance.  And it wont find that balance by utilizing the worst examples of what went wrong with it in the first place.

So you aren't coming?  Is that what you are saying?  You wouldn't rather talk to people in person and see if you can make a change?  Oh, nevermind, you are saying would rather do it from behind a computer and just keep st iring things up instead of using every avenue you can to help the neighborhood, even if some think you are wrong.  Seems pretty immature to me.

Stephendare, after reading a lot of your posts, I'm just not sure how old you are...your grammar and vocabulary are amazing (I will give you some credit there) but when it comes to your posts, they start out with some point of views and then deteriorate into childish babbling and attacks.  It's this stuff that makes new people to the board (like myself) shy away from even reading/listening to anything you have to say because you do it in such a way that it destroys any credibility you are trying to gain.  It's almost a self-destructive trait. 

I have always prided myself on gathering as much information before making a decision, so, I get a lot of each side on this forum.  But honestly, you are slowing making it over to the column of someone that I don't even bother reading anymore because it is so hard to read between all the B.S.  I don't mind reading negative views along with the positive and give them a fair shot of convincing me of their points but you are just overboard.  You seem to have great investigative skills, please use them for good and just put out the information and your views and stop the name calling if you really want to make a difference.

stevendare...............have you noticed just how many newbies have come on board since Springfield threads started up? I for one am really glad MJ has really galvinized that part of the world no matter which side or opinion is presented..........to me that is the whole point of a "Discussion Blog" and I am glad of it!

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2010, 10:19:37 PM
Well Stenodave.  Considering that your first four posts consist of you calling me names, Im sure you can understand how the urge to express yourself can occasionally leave you looking a bit like a jerk.

Im actually pretty active in the community around me, I would dare say more active than most.

Hopefully as you read more of the site, and look a little bit further back into the posts, you will yourself become a little more informed.

Thanks for coming to metrojacksonville.com however: new voices----especially the coherent kind are always welcome here.

You are free to interpret my post however you wish, but if you reread it, you will find that I state very positively that I intend on attending the consensus based meetings of the future.

For 8 years, I hoped that SPAR would become that group, however, in the past 4 months, I have been convinced by empirical evidence that it will never be able to do that under the current (apparently permanent) leadership.

I remain unoffended by your very aggressive posts, and hope that you find the time (not to mention the energy) to look a bit deeper before you rush to print with your own opinions.

Because of the wide diversity of opinions and personalities on this site, and the long term nature of some of those conversations, sometimes there are other elements to the responses within threads that are not obvious to the casual reader.  I assume that you have stumbled across a few of these threads.

One of the successful hijack strategies employed by a group of posters on the site involves bogging down a thread which discusses an issue they would rather not have publicized by bogging it down with personal invective.

One poster (who happens to be from Springfield in fact) in particular is notorious for doing this.  It is intentional on his part, and designed to subvert the discussion into a clash of personalities and deflect it away from the original issue.

To be honest, considering the attacking tone of your own posts, I assumed that you were engaging in the same thing.

I hope to discover otherwise.

Truly
Stephen.

Stephen, let me appologize for the personal attack and name calling.  I admit I was wrong.  I was just getting overwhelmed with the school yard antics that so many people on here seem to resort to using, and I could only take so much.  You had posted the most recent one and I may have directed it all at you unfairly.  

I have recently made an offer on a SRG home to be built and hopefully will become a resident if we can meet on a price.  I plan on starting a small buisness within the next year or so in Springfield as well.  I'm looking to open a court reporting firm in the area (on a side note, I would be willing to attend any meeting at no cost and do the transcription of the meeting and post them online of ANY meeting and make that available to the public) so it really concerns me to see that every side is so far apart on their views.

Stephen, once again I apologize about the personal name calling and attacks and promise to keep an open mind when reading your further posts.

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2010, 10:39:29 PM
StenoDave

Welcome to the neighborhood!

I hope for you and your family that you come to terms with the house!  Mack Bissette is a hell of a builder, from all that Ive seen of his firm's work.  Solid quality material and good worksmanship---certainly better craftwork than most of the horrible floridian standards of building.

As I stated in the post just above, the neighborhood is really really wonderful and its a magical place to live in most respects!  And I certainly accept your apology, even though I really wasnt offended.....

Anything I can do to help out, consider me at your service!

Stephen

Hey Stephen, not to stir the pot again, but I was going to follow you on twitter and I was reading some of your posts and was wondering what the reason behind the tweet on  3:29 PM Nov 20th, 2008 ?

Quote from: stephendare on January 13, 2010, 11:07:22 PM
They are great builders.

Not so great at social policy.  But that isnt the business they are in, so it works out.

Ok, just wondering.  Kind of caught me off guard.

Quote from: fsu813
Of all interested property owners, residential and commerical, in the neighborhood?

Not hosted by any particular neighborhood organization?

Just a general meeting, sans organization/business titles and labels?

At a "neutral" site?

A time to speak face to face and have honest discussions. Leave your baggage at the door?

With an unaffiliated moderator, to ensure appropriateness and disuade bias?

In the 2 years I've lived here, of which I've been really paying attention the last year or so.....there has been  more miscommunication, misunderstanding, intentional dishonesty, hurt feelings, over sensitivity, negative gossip, rumor spreading, and distrust between neighbors than I ever, EVER, could have expected.

This is counterproductive at best and, in my view, is an unnecessary counter-weight to all the good things here.

Speaking of of good things......the hardwork, time spent, money spent, energy spent, enthusiasm, vision, kindness, camaraderie, volunteerism, community involvement, attention to detail, and sense of togetherness by the neighborhood has far exceeded my expectations as well.

We are all adults here.

We all want a better Springfield.

The details may be different, but the general goal is the same. At least i'd like to think so.

I have no idea whatsoever if anyone would be interested, but i'm more than willing to find a location, time, and date, and moderator for such a meeting.

Heck, i'll provide refreshments too (as i'm sure it would be lengthy).

If anyone is interested, sincerely interested, please say so, either publically or in PM.

If enough are interested then I'll be more than happy to set it all up.

Thanks.

Just to add my two cents about a meeting to cure what you feel ails our hood...no, absolutely not, especially if it's hosted by you...someone who doesn't seem to be able to move beyond your own infatuation with spar to see that the only divide is one that spar has caused. I know that I don't need to sit at some meeting and listen to how wonderful spar is. There have been face to face meetings before, and the issues and concerns remain unresolved.

I totally agree with you on one thing "This is counterproductive at best and, in my view, is an unnecessary counter-weight to all the good things here."

"especially if it's hosted by you..."

- exactly the attitude that needs to be addressed. good grief.

"the only divide is one that spar has caused"

- i can think of others, can't you?

"and listen to how wonderful"

- that's not what i described at all

"the issues and concerns remain unresolved"

- exactly. but giving up on it, i hope, wouldn't be an option.


*there has been enough interest to take this a little further. i'll look into some things far enough ahead of time to accomodate everyone. thanks *

The past history of "community meetings" here (in Springfield) of late, meaning, the last few years, has not been a great one.  The meetings, while they can be advertised as "not a  SPAR Council meeting", are indeed orchestrated and set-up by SPAR Council and to their agenda.  What I believe Springfielder means by some of her statements, and I am stating only my opinion here,  is that another community meeting set up by a person who has been known to defend SPAR Council no matter what and has basically said it's OK if they (Louise and Company) do not to follow their own by-laws does not bode well for producing a true, all inclusive, non-biased community meeting.

While I understand how many newer residents can come to believe that Louise and Company does so much good for Springfield, many of us who have been around have seen the other side of things.  The by-laws issues are simply one indication of what has been going on.  There are a few of us who are very vocal on the forums but the majority are most likely just “over it” and like Springfielder, pretty much does their own thing and ignores the rest as much as possible.

But rather than just ignore this idea, try this:  Go to Louise and Company and see if you can get a list of things that would allow the likes of me, for instance, back into the fold.  What it would take to get all of the businesses around to be accepted by them and what compromises they would be willing to make.  I will be happy to do the same.  Want to bet the lists are so far apart they make the Grand Canyon seem tiny?  And that is knowing that the odds of getting a real list from Louise and Company that illustrates what they really want is very slim.

The real issue is the chasm is too big until major changes are made in how Louise and Company does their business.  A community meeting without those changes being made first will do nothing but illustrate how wide the chasm is and make it even wider.

Quote from: strider on January 14, 2010, 08:34:26 AM



The real issue is the chasm is too big  

Strider, I actually agree with this. The thing is you will never get everyone in any neighborhood to agree on everything. You guys have taken it upon yourselves to start a media campaign against SPAR saying they do not support businesses ie, Pawn shops and thrift stores. You guys are very vocal in saying that the org. does not support halfway houses. I talk to so many people on a daily basis and since the news stories the residents I have talked to all said well yeah, we don't shop at pawn shops or thrift stores. I have been on the SPAR board for 2 years and never has anything been said about trying to shut down the pawn shops or thrift store, that's not what we do. People forget though that SPAR is not some unknown they. We are residents of Springfield. None of us get to decide what the neighborhood wants or does not want. That includes me and you. Now as individuals we all have ideas about how we would like to see the neighborhood grow. Some in the neighborhood may want businesses like thrift stores and pawn shops and some many prefer businesses like Uptown Market and Three Layers. The only thing that decides what existing businesses will stand and which will fall is the market. No one can keep others from supporting or not supporting any business. I choose the businesses where I want to shop no matter what part of town I'm in and so do others. It's not conspiracy, just individual choice.

Quote from: stephendare on January 14, 2010, 09:15:26 AM
SPAR is the only group that has problems with the rest of the neighborhood.

I think once the City realizes how few people the little group has for membership, their power to work ill will be over.

Of course the good projects that they do will have to be taken over by someone else, either that or SPAR will simply have to learn how to do those projects well and let go of the attempt to control the historic district.

Stephen...prophesying earlier today.

Quote from: fsu813
"especially if it's hosted by you..."

- exactly the attitude that needs to be addressed. good grief.

"the only divide is one that spar has caused"

- i can think of others, can't you?

"and listen to how wonderful"

- that's not what i described at all

"the issues and concerns remain unresolved"

- exactly. but giving up on it, i hope, wouldn't be an option.


*there has been enough interest to take this a little further. i'll look into some things far enough ahead of time to accomodate everyone. thanks *

So you're going to have SPAR attend this meeting and we're all going to walk away happy. Well, thank God, we have you to come save the neighborhood, we've been roaming aimlessly in the dark and so unable to get anything accomplished. I just don't know how we've survived at all. I'm sure this meeting will be the cure all to end all, now that you're here to make everything all rosy and lovely.

Sorry, but the only divide that I know of revolves around SPAR, which is why membership has dwindled down. As long as certain people remain involved with that organization, things will never be fixed. Although I'm sure with your assistance, they'll be more than happy to sit in this meeting and admit what they've done wrong.

Sheclown,

you do relilze that they are the largest and most effective organization in the neighborhood, right? that much is indisputable. And btw, i've heard that though membership is down from previous years (before all this in-fighting), it's up of late. So if they don't represent, then who does?


Springfielder,

keep up the good work.

What if it were hosted by an elected official or neighborhood pastor?

QuoteSpringfield Girl: You guys have taken it upon yourselves to start a media campaign against SPAR saying they do not support businesses ie, Pawn shops and thrift stores. You guys are very vocal in saying that the org. does not support halfway houses. I talk to so many people on a daily basis and since the news stories the residents I have talked to all said well yeah, we don't shop at pawn shops or thrift stores. I have been on the SPAR board for 2 years and never has anything been said about trying to shut down the pawn shops or thrift store, that's not what we do. People forget though that SPAR is not some unknown they. We are residents of Springfield. None of us get to decide what the neighborhood wants or does not want. That includes me and you. Now as individuals we all have ideas about how we would like to see the neighborhood grow. Some in the neighborhood may want businesses like thrift stores and pawn shops and some many prefer businesses like Uptown Market and Three Layers. The only thing that decides what existing businesses will stand and which will fall is the market. No one can keep others from supporting or not supporting any business. I choose the businesses where I want to shop no matter what part of town I'm in and so do others. It's not conspiracy, just individual choice.

Thanks for giving us that credit, but the truth is, they came to us.  They asked questions and we simply answered.  Then they went to Louise and asked questions.  No, any media campaign going on here is not our making, it is all of Louise and Company’s doing.  And, yes, I do not think it sheds a very good light on SPAR Council and their take on business on Main Street, or all of Springfield for that matter. But that is as much your doing as anyone’s.

By and by, I never said anything about residents as a whole wanting to get  rid of us.  I do know for a fact that there are some within SPAR Council that would prefer to see the pawn shops, the convenience stores, the thrift stores and pretty much anything they do not like or wish to see in this false vision they have of Springfield just gone.  From some of your posts, you could easily be included in that group.

As we saw at this afternoon’s Planning Commission meeting, there is support for businesses that SPAR Council does not like. And it seems like there is a beginning of a recognition that perhaps SPAR Council does not truly represent the interests of Springfield anymore.  And perhaps even that there is truth in the notion that SPAR Council has and does make some businesses not welcomed.

"...they came to us"

- so they just happened to be in the neighborhood, poking around for a story?


" As we saw at this afternoon’s Planning Commission meeting, there is support for businesses that SPAR Council does not like."

-  102 sigs against, 98 in the 'hood. 59 for. 13 speakers against. 7 for.

(i think)

If the commuity got it's way, it wouldn't have passed.

Yes, some businesses aren't welcomed.

If done right, i think the car wash will be.

QuoteFSU813: you do relilze that they are the largest and most effective organization in the neighborhood, right? that much is indisputable. And btw, i've heard that though membership is down from previous years (before all this in-fighting), it's up of late. So if they don't represent, then who does?

I would say that your statement is really not very accurate.  Perhaps they are still the largest as far as basic membership, though, without an accurate number, they could be down below other groups in size.   The real issue is that I think SPAR Council has steadily been dropping in stature these last couple of years. Louise did not do herself any favors when she failed to really answer the question of how many members SPAR Council had.  To start with, it is not, or at least should not be confidential information. And two, by simply referring to the 100 ish names on the petition, she pretty much said that there were less than 100 ish members as she chose to use the petition rather than a real number. So, even if the membership is "up", it is a far cry from what it once was and it is low enough to pretty much guarantee that SPAR Council can not be considered to represent the entire community of Springfield anymore.

As far as being the most effective?  Far from it and always has been.  Look to the Woman’s Club/ SIA to fit that bill.  HSCC was far more effective in it’s day and much of the hard work was done not by the current crop of SPAR Council board members, rather it was done by their predecessors.  So, no, I do not think it is “indisputable”.  Even if it were somehow true three years ago, it is far from true today. 

Today’s meeting showed us that SPAR Councils influence is waning and  the influence of MetroJacksonville is climbing.  Look for one of the other groups to soon step up to the plate and take over  the vacuum SPAR Council is leaving behind.

Quote"...they came to us"

- so they just happened to be in the neighborhood, poking around for a story?

Yep.  Or rather they poked around various sites and places, saw a potential story and then came to see us. Louise had her chance to convince them of her side and perhaps did in one of three stories.

Quote" As we saw at this afternoon’s Planning Commission meeting, there is support for businesses that SPAR Council does not like."

-  102 sigs against, 98 in the 'hood. 59 for. 13 speakers against. 7 for.

(i think)

If the commuity got it's way, it wouldn't have passed.

Yes, some businesses aren't welcomed.

If done right, i think the car wash will be.

Neither of us can truly say that the community did or did not get it’s way.  The community as represented by one group lead by SPAR Council and another group “lead” by the owner of the potential car wash got to present their opinions on a business that requires an exception to open and after the evidence was weighed, it was decided that there were fewer valid reasons against than for and so the exception was granted.  Seems like the system worked.  I would have had to have said pretty much the same thing if it had gone the other way.  In fact, I thought it was going too, but I was pleasantly surprised that we got the result we did.   The BS was ignored for the most part and the real issue dealt with.

As to those names on the petition, I guess I would have to see the petition and see what and how the info had been presented before I said that 98 residents didn’t get what they wanted today.  Sorry, but SPAR Council’s past history with  petitions and giving correct information is not very good.

The bottom line is that SPAR Council made a well organized attempt at blocking a business they do not like and failed. And the Main Street corridor got another new business that it needs so badly. A valid and positive business that can do nothing but enhance the commercial area.  This ruling and hopefully the ones to follow will go a long way to reduce the current issues, whether you feel they are real or just perceived, that make Main Street seem undesirable to many. 

Quote from: fsu813 on January 14, 2010, 10:01:25 PM


-  102 sigs against, 98 in the 'hood. 59 for. 13 speakers against. 7 for.

(i think)

If the commuity got it's way, it wouldn't have passed.

so there are only 157 people in springfield?

Or only 157 interested enough to give an opinion! SPAR represents it vast numbers of members huh?

Quote from: fsu813 on January 14, 2010, 08:57:00 PM
Sheclown,

you do relilze that they are the largest and most effective organization in the neighborhood, right? that much is indisputable.

I was going to stay out of this one- but this is just wrong, anyone who has been around the neighborhood long enough, and has seen what has been accomplished in the last five years would know this is just wrong. The statement above is justification to NOT entertain this meeting. It is so very biased.  I could give you a list of items SPAR has effectively done to HURT our neighborhood some of which has been effectively swept under the carpet (perhaps that is the effectiveness to which you speak?), but I gave up on them over a year ago and happily work with and/or cheer on truly effective groups in our neighborhood. Sorry, but I have to call BS on that statement.

"Neither of us can truly say that the community did or did not get it’s way."

- those that cared enough to sign thier name or show up did not. what other way would you measured it?

"past history with petitions and giving correct information is not very good"

- i've stated before that i have a copy of that petition in question in my email and i'd be happy to share it with anyone that's interetsed. BUT......that would dispell your conspiracy theory, so naturally noone asked to see it. Like always, as long as it sounds damning it doesn't have to be accurate.

"I have to call BS on that statement."

- anyone who cared to show up to the last Board meeting would know how members there are. Yes, they are the largest, and have well over 100. That's not BS. Clearly shown by the signatures as well.

I suppose "effective" is up to the eye of the beholder. I know other orgs are/have done great things too. This isn't a competition. For example, 3 projects in the works now: Main St improvements, major Park renovations, Main St Business enhancements wouldn't be happening or wouldn't be in the stage that they are now without thier them.

Arguing about this is not appealing. But....yet again I am (ha).

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 08:31:00 AM
- anyone who cared to show up to the last Board meeting would know how members there are. Yes, they are the largest, and have well over 100. That's not BS. Clearly shown by the signatures as well.

The signatures on the petition have no correlation to SPAR membership. I had a neighbor (an active supporter and member of SPAR) stop by my house with said petition one evening this past week, asking me to sign. He was going door to door, not necessarily seeking out SPAR members (as I am not.) At the beginning of the conversation I was told we needed to sign the petition to stop yet another convenience store coming into the neighborhood. I thought that clearly misleading - I already knew the exception was for the car wash, not the convenience store - and made that clear.  So - I question how many people who signed that petition actually knew what they were signing for. And clearly, signatures weren't limited to SPAR members.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 14, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
"...they came to us"

- so they just happened to be in the neighborhood, poking around for a story?


" As we saw at this afternoon’s Planning Commission meeting, there is support for businesses that SPAR Council does not like."

-  102 sigs against, 98 in the 'hood. 59 for. 13 speakers against. 7 for.

(i think)

If the commuity got it's way, it wouldn't have passed.

Yes, some businesses aren't welcomed.

If done right, i think the car wash will be.

This logic is freaking ridiculous. So because you guys ran around scaring people into signing a petition to keep away the big bad boogie man, and failed, you are insulted that they didnt abide by your opinion.

Lets clear this up, once and for all. First, SPAR was wrong. A Car wash IS a permissible use under the overlay, if the owner applies for an exception. ITS SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED! There is a whole list of uses under the overlay that are expressly prohibited. Car wash is not one of them.

Second, its bullshit that you guys went running around scaring people about another "convenience store". The guy never even wanted a freaking store. He only decided to put one in, because he thought it would make the use more permissible. He never had any interest in selling booze, or cigs. He just wants to open.

The irony being, if he wanted to give up on his car wash, he could open a convenience store, without even applying for an exception. Did any one of the brain trust at SPAR even realize that?

SPAR screwed the pooch on this by not stepping up, and trying to push for site improvements. Now, Silas KNOWS that SPAR has it out for him, and could give a crap less what the organization wants. SPAR has neutralized itself in EVER asking Silas to support a neighborhood event, or make any changes that MIGHT actually improve the area around it. Silas can slam the door right in your faces. Did you ever think about that?

How about a little freaking diplomacy.

I am NOT a fan of the tactics used by SPARs detractors, but your guys have proven that your more interested in power plays, than improving the community. I always suspected it, but I thought (perhaps hoped) that it was simple dysfunction, rather than diplomatic incompetence.

But hey, at least you have 2 "AA"s on the board. Congrats on that. That should exonerate you from ANY claims of racism in the future.

All in all, nice work, and way to cry over your spilled milk (But, but, but, but we had more signatures!) Amazing.

I personally obtained all but 13 of the signatures. I did it in 2 days so it was limited to how many people I could find at home. I have no idea how many were SPAR members and how many were not, it didn't matter. We are a neighborhood of individuals and this had nothing to do with any organization. I find it insulting when anyone claims that any person is a mouthpiece for an organization rather than a concerned resident of the neighborhood. I took the copy of the planning departments report and the letter from the chairman of HPC with me when I was collecting signatures. I let people know that there were supporters on both sides and that there were petitions circling both pro and con. Out of my 105 signatures, 98 were homeowners in Springfield and 28 of those homeowners live within two blocks of the carwash. I had everyone sign their names and include their address and phone number or email so everyone I talked to could see who was supporting this. 13 residents of Springfield took 5 hours out of their day to attend the hearing and speak in opposition to the exception.
The supporting side had a petition with 59 signatures collected over the internet since November.
The speakers who spoke in support included the manager of the Alcoholic Center on 4th St., both owners of the Thrift Store and Home away from Home on Pearl St., Stephen Dare, The Paster of a church near the carwash that I have never seen at a neighborhood event in the 9 years I lived here (all non residents BTW) and the grand total of three residents, so I think the argument about a few speaking for many is a moot point right now.

Quote from: Dan B on January 15, 2010, 09:15:40 AM

Quote from: fsu813 on January 14, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
"...they came to us"

- so they just happened to be in the neighborhood, poking around for a story?


" As we saw at this afternoon’s Planning Commission meeting, there is support for businesses that SPAR Council does not like."

-  102 sigs against, 98 in the 'hood. 59 for. 13 speakers against. 7 for.

(i think)

If the commuity got it's way, it wouldn't have passed.

Yes, some businesses aren't welcomed.

If done right, i think the car wash will be.

This logic is freaking ridiculous. So because you guys ran around scaring people into signing a petition to keep away the big bad boogie man, and failed, you are insulted that they didnt abide by your opinion.

Lets clear this up, once and for all. First, SPAR was wrong. A Car wash IS a permissible use under the overlay, if the owner applies for an exception. ITS SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED! There is a whole list of uses under the overlay that are expressly prohibited. Car wash is not one of them.

Second, its bullshit that you guys went running around scaring people about another "convenience store". The guy never even wanted a freaking store. He only decided to put one in, because he thought it would make the use more permissible. He never had any interest in selling booze, or cigs. He just wants to open.

The irony being, if he wanted to give up on his car wash, he could open a convenience store, without even applying for an exception. Did any one of the brain trust at SPAR even realize that?

SPAR screwed the pooch on this by not stepping up, and trying to push for site improvements. Now, Silas KNOWS that SPAR has it out for him, and could give a crap less what the organization wants. SPAR has neutralized itself in EVER asking Silas to support a neighborhood event, or make any changes that MIGHT actually improve the area around it. Silas can slam the door right in your faces. Did you ever think about that?

How about a little freaking diplomacy.

I am NOT a fan of the tactics used by SPARs detractors, but your guys have proven that your more interested in power plays, than improving the community. I always suspected it, but I thought (perhaps hoped) that it was simple dysfunction, rather than diplomatic incompetence.

But hey, at least you have 2 "AA"s on the board. Congrats on that. That should exonerate you from ANY claims of racism in the future.

All in all, nice work, and way to cry over your spilled milk (But, but, but, but we had more signatures!) Amazing.

Dan, this was no SPAR conspiracy. It's as simple as some people thinking a carwash is a good thing for the historic district and others who think it isn't. Time will be the judge.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 09:25:37 AM

Quote from: Dan B on January 15, 2010, 09:15:40 AM

Quote from: fsu813 on January 14, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
"...they came to us"

- so they just happened to be in the neighborhood, poking around for a story?


" As we saw at this afternoon’s Planning Commission meeting, there is support for businesses that SPAR Council does not like."

-  102 sigs against, 98 in the 'hood. 59 for. 13 speakers against. 7 for.

(i think)

If the commuity got it's way, it wouldn't have passed.

Yes, some businesses aren't welcomed.

If done right, i think the car wash will be.

This logic is freaking ridiculous. So because you guys ran around scaring people into signing a petition to keep away the big bad boogie man, and failed, you are insulted that they didnt abide by your opinion.

Lets clear this up, once and for all. First, SPAR was wrong. A Car wash IS a permissible use under the overlay, if the owner applies for an exception. ITS SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED! There is a whole list of uses under the overlay that are expressly prohibited. Car wash is not one of them.

Second, its bullshit that you guys went running around scaring people about another "convenience store". The guy never even wanted a freaking store. He only decided to put one in, because he thought it would make the use more permissible. He never had any interest in selling booze, or cigs. He just wants to open.

The irony being, if he wanted to give up on his car wash, he could open a convenience store, without even applying for an exception. Did any one of the brain trust at SPAR even realize that?

SPAR screwed the pooch on this by not stepping up, and trying to push for site improvements. Now, Silas KNOWS that SPAR has it out for him, and could give a crap less what the organization wants. SPAR has neutralized itself in EVER asking Silas to support a neighborhood event, or make any changes that MIGHT actually improve the area around it. Silas can slam the door right in your faces. Did you ever think about that?

How about a little freaking diplomacy.

I am NOT a fan of the tactics used by SPARs detractors, but your guys have proven that your more interested in power plays, than improving the community. I always suspected it, but I thought (perhaps hoped) that it was simple dysfunction, rather than diplomatic incompetence.

But hey, at least you have 2 "AA"s on the board. Congrats on that. That should exonerate you from ANY claims of racism in the future.

All in all, nice work, and way to cry over your spilled milk (But, but, but, but we had more signatures!) Amazing.

Dan, this was no SPAR conspiracy. It's as simple as some people thinking a carwash is a good thing for the historic district and others who think it isn't. Time will be the judge.

I never said conspiracy, I think its more along the lines of complete and udder lack of diplomacy, and willingness to work with anything that isn't a quaint little coffee shop/wine bar.

Guys, Main Street is dead, and without prospect for commercial construction, why not help make this type of business better? While your at it, go ask Rich Trendel what the prospects of the property owner getting money from the banks for a commercial project are, if your so worried about a business owners fiscal viability on a Main St project...

My point it, why not put yourselves in a position of power, buy helping Silas, and guiding him to doing something good?

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 09:21:29 AM
I personally obtained all but 13 of the signatures. I did it in 2 days so it was limited to how many people I could find at home. I have no idea how many were SPAR members and how many were not, it didn't matter. We are a neighborhood of individuals and this had nothing to do with any organization. I find it insulting when anyone claims that any person is a mouthpiece for an organization rather than a concerned resident of the neighborhood. I took the copy of the planning departments report and the letter from the chairman of HPC with me when I was collecting signatures. I let people know that there were supporters on both sides and that were petitions circling both pro and con. Out of my 105 signatures, 98 were homeowners in Springfield and 28 of those homeowners live within two blocks of the carwash. I had everyone sign their names and include their address and phone number or email so everyone I talked to could see who was supporting this. 13 residents of Springfield took 5 hours out of their day to attend the hearing and speak in opposition to the exception.
The supporting side had a petition with 59 signatures collected over the internet since November.
The speakers who spoke in support included the manager of the Alcoholic Center on 4th St., both owners of the Thrift Store and Home away from Home on Pearl St., Stephen Dare, The Paster of a church near the carwash that I have never seen at a neighborhood event in the 9 years I lived here (all non residents BTW) and the grand total of three residents, so I think the argument about a few speaking for many is a moot point right now.

Unfortunately, planning staff, and this is because the information didn't get to them on time, made all of its recommendations based off of an old site plan that didn't address any of their concerns like the images we presented to them yesterday did.  Would that have changed staff's report, maybe or maybe not.  

Also, the fact that the "convenience store" has played such a huge part to everyone (judging by many of the concerns), except to the people that actually were close to the situation, and those that saw the Metro Jacksonville article stating what Silas wanted to sell at the store, may have influenced some of those signatures.

One thing's for sure, there were passionate people on both sides, and shows that people do care about the future of Springfield.  I'm just hoping for the future that people have time to hear factual evidence about proposed projects...be it evidence for or against.

"And every single speaker against was a SPAR member."

- not true.



Dan B,

all petitions were submitted to the commission. i assume they are public record now.

why don't you see exactly what the wording on the petition is yourself, before you allege a dishonest petition. Also, before the condition was put in place by the comission, he could have sold whatever he wanted out of his convenience store. So that was 100% accurate.

BTW -still no takers to dispell the previous "petition conspiracy". some people aren't intersted in facts, just propaganda.
     t-y-p-i-c-a-l


"why not put yourselves in a position of power, buy helping Silas, and guiding him to doing something good?"

- for the various reasons they stated at the hearing yesterday. all had good reasons. the supporters had good reasons too. so, ya know, who's to say which is MORE right? time will tell i guess.


Now that it's over, for all intensive purposes, i'm excited to see how it will look. Wonder if they will have to repave the lot?

fsu, you're right...he could have sold anything he wanted, but he wanted to sell the items that he listed.  This was always going to be on the table as a condition that he was ready to provide, however and could have been discussed with the community if given a chance beforehand.

The lot for the car wash will certainly be repaved, or at the very least resurfaced.

Time wont tell. SPAR has already shot itself in the foot.

Silas may be the bigger man and let you guys back in the door. However, If I were him, I am not sure I would.

As it sits, he got support from other community business owners and local residents who did what SPAR should have, and helped guide him to making some crucial changes to help him get his business open.

Against him every step of the way, and not even so much as willing to hear his plan, and offer some suggestions that might make it more community friendly?. SPAR.

There may have been other names on your list, but the only people who showed up to speak against him (which takes a special kind of motivation) was SPAR.

Congrats on neutralizing yourselves so completely.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 09:21:29 AM
I personally obtained all but 13 of the signatures. I did it in 2 days so it was limited to how many people I could find at home. I have no idea how many were SPAR members and how many were not, it didn't matter. We are a neighborhood of individuals and this had nothing to do with any organization. I find it insulting when anyone claims that any person is a mouthpiece for an organization rather than a concerned resident of the neighborhood. I took the copy of the planning departments report and the letter from the chairman of HPC with me when I was collecting signatures. I let people know that there were supporters on both sides and that there were petitions circling both pro and con. Out of my 105 signatures, 98 were homeowners in Springfield and 28 of those homeowners live within two blocks of the carwash. I had everyone sign their names and include their address and phone number or email so everyone I talked to could see who was supporting this. 13 residents of Springfield took 5 hours out of their day to attend the hearing and speak in opposition to the exception.
The supporting side had a petition with 59 signatures collected over the internet since November.
The speakers who spoke in support included the manager of the Alcoholic Center on 4th St., both owners of the Thrift Store and Home away from Home on Pearl St., Stephen Dare, The Paster of a church near the carwash that I have never seen at a neighborhood event in the 9 years I lived here (all non residents BTW) and the grand total of three residents, so I think the argument about a few speaking for many is a moot point right now.

Springfield Girl - today's post aside, you know I am not anti-SPAR - and I applaud you when you stand up to what is a very concerted and mean-spirited anti-SPAR smear campaign on this board. But you were not the SPAR member that stopped by my house.  The SPAR member who stopped by my house is, yes, a very concerned neighborhood resident - and - just as clearly - was representing SPAR and SPAR's position on this. Because the initial presentation of the petition was misleading, we debated for a good 30 - 40 minutes after the initial assertion about stopping the convenience store.

It is my opinion that this neighborhood would not be what it is without SPAR, good and bad but always generally upward. However, since we moved here, SPAR has grown a bit hard of hearing and continues to shoot itself in the foot now and again.  It's time to step back and really listen to the entire neighborhood - which is much, much larger than the SPAR membership represents.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 08:31:00 AM
Yes, they are the largest, and have well over 100.

"Well over 100" could mean 100,000,000 or 101. You're talking without saying anything. What's the actual number?

Quote from: Dan B on January 15, 2010, 09:53:49 AM
Time wont tell. SPAR has already shot itself in the foot.

Silas may be the bigger man and let you guys back in the door. However, If I were him, I am not sure I would.

As it sits, he got support from other community business owners and local residents who did what SPAR should have, and helped guide him to making some crucial changes to help him get his business open.

Against him every step of the way, and not even so much as willing to hear his plan, and offer some suggestions that might make it more community friendly?. SPAR.

There may have been other names on your list, but the only people who showed up to speak against him (which takes a special kind of motivation) was SPAR.

Congrats on neutralizing yourselves so completely.

+1,000,000

No possible way to say that any better than you did.

Porch Cats, I agree and was worried that you would think my post was directed at you and it wasn't. You have always been very open minded and fair, besides being a good friend. It was posted towards someone who after being unfairly, mercillessly bashed in the past, I would have thought would have not been such a jerk to those neighbors with differing opinions.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 15, 2010, 11:03:25 AM

Quote from: Dan B on January 15, 2010, 09:53:49 AM
Time wont tell. SPAR has already shot itself in the foot.

Silas may be the bigger man and let you guys back in the door. However, If I were him, I am not sure I would.

As it sits, he got support from other community business owners and local residents who did what SPAR should have, and helped guide him to making some crucial changes to help him get his business open.

Against him every step of the way, and not even so much as willing to hear his plan, and offer some suggestions that might make it more community friendly?. SPAR.

There may have been other names on your list, but the only people who showed up to speak against him (which takes a special kind of motivation) was SPAR.

Congrats on neutralizing yourselves so completely.

+1,000,000

No possible way to say that any better than you did.

At my table last night - the gentleman stated " but the car wash designed is not historically appropriate!!"

My response, "Well that's where SPAR can help him and Content Design with the proposed improvements.  Why hasn't SPAR worked with Silas?" 

I got no answer.

"Who do you think wasnt a member?"

- the guy that said his family has lioved in the 'hood since 1904 (i think) and that he wasn't a Spar member.

"and not even so much as willing to hear his plan"

- again, not true, he was given time at a public meeting to announce his plans.

"Why hasn't SPAR worked with Silas?" 

- b/c they were in support of the overlay and Zoning's recommendation. No sense is working on something that you don't support. Now that it's over, I hope they do. I told him I didn't support it, but now that's it done I hope it does well. He wasn't upset. I don't think he will harbor a grudge.

Well, let's see if SPAR offers their support or advice for Silas then.   I would hope so.

"- b/c they were in support of the overlay and Zoning's recommendation. No sense is working on something that you don't support."

And that didn't seem to stop SPAR from supporting 3rd and Main and 3 Layers, who also needed an exception to the overlay.  SPAR bent over backwards to work with these owners. Why not at least try to work with Silas before opposing? 

QuoteWhy hasn't SPAR worked with Silas?

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 11:26:37 AM
- b/c they were in support of the overlay

If SPAR is just 'supporting the overlay,' then why did SPAR back multiple exceptions and variances that are contradictory to the overlay, including VanHorn's well-publicized flops? Come on, you guys are just picking and choosing who is on your shitlist, and then hiding behind the overlay to try and kill whatever you don't like. SPAR never seems to have a problem supporting nonconforming uses whenever it feels like it.

Seems like some highly selective enforcement there...

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 11:26:37 AM
"and not even so much as willing to hear his plan"

- again, not true, he was given time at a public meeting to announce his plans.

I was at the meeting when he announced his plans. What followed was just shy of pulling out the tar & feathers. Lots of people talking over him, not letting him finish, loud conversations amongst themselves as to why they don't want that without even listening to him. Personally I was horribly embarrassed at the treatment he received with not much attempt (or was it ability?) by the President to control the meeting. I told Doug V after the meeting that there was no way in hell I'd want to stand up in front of that group. These are all nice enough people in normal situations but it is truly incredible and mortifying that of which the crowd mentality is capable.

Sorry, FSU, I was not aware that it was in the bylaws/Mission Statement to Kowtow to various city agencies. I was under the belief that SPARS stated mission was to improve Springfield, protect its history, and encourage economic growth. My bad.

Explains all of the demolitions though, after all code enforcement wanted them right?

Anyone been to Moon River Pizza Lately?

Seriously - how long is this going to go on?  Let the man wash some cars.  Heck, if he does good work, I'll come over from Riverside (all of four miles).

"...was to improve Springfield, protect its history, and encourage economic growth."

- people have different ideas on how to best accomplish this.

people can have different opinions without all the drama, ya know. jeepers.

"I was at the meeting when he announced his plans..."

- i agree. just trying to be accurate. FYI - he's been coming to SAMBA meetings for the past few months. Those that have attended knew MANY more details far ahead of time than others.

"...then why did SPAR back multiple exceptions and variances ..."

- as discussed many times before: SPR isn't lacking auto-related services. SPR was, and still is, lacking mixed-use, condos, restauarnts, etc.

That's pretty much why, i'd guess.

Quote from: Sigma on January 15, 2010, 11:17:51 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 15, 2010, 11:03:25 AM

Quote from: Dan B on January 15, 2010, 09:53:49 AM
Time wont tell. SPAR has already shot itself in the foot.

Silas may be the bigger man and let you guys back in the door. However, If I were him, I am not sure I would.

As it sits, he got support from other community business owners and local residents who did what SPAR should have, and helped guide him to making some crucial changes to help him get his business open.

Against him every step of the way, and not even so much as willing to hear his plan, and offer some suggestions that might make it more community friendly?. SPAR.

There may have been other names on your list, but the only people who showed up to speak against him (which takes a special kind of motivation) was SPAR.

Congrats on neutralizing yourselves so completely.

+1,000,000

No possible way to say that any better than you did.

At my table last night - the gentleman stated " but the car wash designed is not historically appropriate!!"

My response, "Well that's where SPAR can help him and Content Design with the proposed improvements.  Why hasn't SPAR worked with Silas?"  

I got no answer.

You will never make a carwash that was built in the 50's and has suffered through many bad additions look historic and I think it would be ridiculous to try. I Think Jason did a great job on the design and his vision is the most appropriate for the site in my opinion. Next step is HPC so they will be the ones with the imput. There are several architects on the commission and they are more qualified than we are.

Quote from: Steve on January 15, 2010, 12:16:49 PM
Seriously - how long is this going to go on?  Let the man wash some cars.  Heck, if he does good work, I'll come over from Riverside (all of four miles).

Yeah me too.

I'm getting sick of Charles & George's, it's like $30 to get a mediocre carwash.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 12:40:03 PM
You will never make a carwash that was built in the 50's and has suffered through many bad additions look historic and I think it would be ridiculous to try. I Think Jason did a great job on the design and his vision is the most appropriate for the site in my opinion. Next step is HPC so they will be the ones with the imput.

So just for the record...

Since SPAR did a 180 after being defeated, and is now trying to claim they support the project, then nobody is going to try and stall or meddle with the HPC process, right? That wouldn't be very supportive, now would it?

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 15, 2010, 12:54:17 PM

Quote from: Steve on January 15, 2010, 12:16:49 PM
Seriously - how long is this going to go on?  Let the man wash some cars.  Heck, if he does good work, I'll come over from Riverside (all of four miles).

Yeah me too.

I'm getting sick of Charles & George's, it's like $30 to get a mediocre carwash.

According to a CPA who took the time to do an analysis, it will only cost you $8.00 bucks. I was glad to see the chairman call him out on that.

"Since SPAR did a 180 after being defeated, and is now trying to claim they support the project, then nobody is going to try and stall or meddle with the HPC process, right?"

- have you always purposely made stuff up, or is this just a recent thing? "Spar" hasn't commented at all, how could they do a "180". Goodness. You don't have to out & out lie about things, ya know. Take a cue from your forum friends and at least have a shred of truth in your comments.

"According to a CPA who took the time to do an analysis, it will only cost you $8.00 bucks. I was glad to see the chairman call him out on that. "

- this may have been difficult to understand for those who weren't there. The CPA just guessed as to what a typical carwash would cost. He used the $8 amount. An obscene number of cars would have to go through to break even in 15 years, with that math. Then some on the commission and supporters discussed how a carwash costs more like $20-25 these days, so the CPA's projections were way off. Finally, the chairman looked inside the materials and found that Mr. Jones was planning on only charging $6 per wash. He joked that he guessed he needed to find a new carwash to use then, as he's been getting ripped off. So that would make he CPA's projection quite generous. Of course, it didn't include upgrades and items sold in the store, which will have some affect i'm sure.

No, Mr. Jones stated the car wash is going to cost about 5.95. I still don't support the carwash as an individual living two blocks from it. No one can "stall" the HPC process. The staff will look at the drawings, make reccomendations to the commission and it will go from there. We all defer to the architects on the board for projects like this. Don't worry, I won't be be touching this one with a 10 ft pole. It's done now and we'll get to see if the decision was good or bad soon enough.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 01:17:42 PM
"Since SPAR did a 180 after being defeated, and is now trying to claim they support the project, then nobody is going to try and stall or meddle with the HPC process, right?"

- have you always purposely made stuff up, or is this just a recent thing? "Spar" hasn't commented at all, how could they do a "180". Goodness. You don't have to out & out lie about things, ya know. Take a cue from your forum friends and at least have a shred of truth in your comments.

This isn't a SPAR member?

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 14, 2010, 08:15:54 PM
Congrats to Mr. Jones on the approval of the carwash exception.

Since SPAR is a corporation, not a person, I kinda logically figured that it spoke through its members and leadership. Obviously I was mistaken. My sincere apologies.

I guess we can no longer say "SPAR did..." anything, ever, then.

Nope, I was a resident long before I was a board member and do have thoughts and opinions of my own. The only person who can speak for the organization is the pres. or ex. director. Everyone who knows me knows I am outspoken and I didn't give up my right to have an opinion as a resident when I became a board member. Same thing with HPC.
I congratulated Mr. Jones on his win. I still don't agree with the decision but he won and that's that. More than ever I wish him the best because like I said before his failure becomes the neighborhoods failure and there will be no reward in that.

"I guess we can no longer say "SPAR did..." anything, ever, then."

- perhaps there was a twinkle of realization in there somewhere.....but then it faded. Individuals can't speak for SPAR. They don't all have the same point of view, despite what your handler has been telling you. When a official action or opinion is had, it's discussed at one of the various public meetings or in it's newsletter.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 01:24:47 PM
I still don't support the carwash as an idividual living two blocks from it.

Well that certainly clears up what you meant by "congratulations to Mr. Jones" then doesn't it?

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 01:24:47 PM
No one can "stall" the HPC process.

Oh sure they can, if certain groups decided to pick up the phone and start cooking up a bunch of objections to everything in the proposal. SPAR has lost a lot of credibility lately, but I'm sure it still has enough of a shred left to at least get a return phone call from some Historic Preservation Commission members. I'd really hate to see that happen after all the backroom nonsense that has gone on already.

Quote from: Springfield Girl on January 15, 2010, 01:24:47 PM
The staff will look at the drawings, make reccomendations to the commission and it will go from there. We all defer to the architects on the board for projects like this. Don't worry, I won't be be touching this one with a 10 ft pole. It's done now and we'll get to see if the decision was good or bad soon enough.

Well good, that's great news. That's the way it's supposed to work; with things being evaluated on their merits instead of hysteria and bogus code complaints. If the place opens up and winds up being a flop, then it will close. Simple as that.

You certainly wouldn't be any worse off than you were before, it'll just go back to being the empty building it is now. The only one who stands to lose anything in all this is Mr. Jones, and he's willing to take the risk on the neighborhood. It will be interesting, and I hope he succeeds. We really could use a good carwash around here, all the other ones are way overpriced and don't do a great job.

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 01:43:25 PM
"I guess we can no longer say "SPAR did..." anything, ever, then."

- perhaps there was a twinkle of realization in there somewhere.....but then it faded. Individuals can't speak for SPAR. They don't all have the same point of view, despite what your handler has been telling you. When a official action or opinion is had, it's discussed at one of the various public meetings or in it's newsletter.

That's an awfully bifurcated and strict definition there.

So then what should I call it when an organization doesn't act "officially" but is nevertheless doing something? Or when a group of people takes action that isn't officially on behalf of the entity, but the only connection between that group of people and their actions is that same entity? And what should you call it when these actions coincide or follow the entity's positions on things? Seems like there's a lot of gray you're leaving out, no?

I guess we all need to get together and spring for a set of two hats for you guys, one "SPAR" and one "NON-SPAR", so we know which capacity you're acting in when you do something. This is like before Madoff pled guilty, they always had to be careful to say on the news "alleged swindler Bernard Madoff...".

So I guess from here on out, I will start saying "A group of SPAR members, SPAR directors, and/or SPAR officials, based on information obtained from other SPAR members, or obtained at a SPAR meeting at the SPAR building, but yet not acting officially on behalf of SPAR, did XYZ today...". LOL

As a side note, I just drove past there after eating lunch at 3rd and Main and noticed how all the palm trees were butchered and hacked to nothing, I guess so one can easily see the car wash from Main St.

QuoteSo I guess from here on out, I will start saying "A group of SPAR members, SPAR directors, and/or SPAR officials, based on information obtained from other SPAR members, or obtained at a SPAR meeting at the SPAR building, but yet not acting officially on behalf of SPAR, did XYZ today...".

Since you plan to be an attorney, you should consider it practice. :)

Being off of Main Street may be a blessing................I wonder what the variance is regarding signage to direct some? I know Historic Bill Boards would be out of the question & I hope Mr Jones took this into consideration!

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 01:43:25 PM
"I guess we can no longer say "SPAR did..." anything, ever, then."

- perhaps there was a twinkle of realization in there somewhere.....but then it faded. Individuals can't speak for SPAR. They don't all have the same point of view, despite what your handler has been telling you. When a official action or opinion is had, it's discussed at one of the various public meetings or in it's newsletter.

And the majority of the neighborhood's residents opinion is not even taken into consideration. That is THE issue

Quote from: fsu813 on January 15, 2010, 08:31:00 AM
"Neither of us can truly say that the community did or did not get it’s way."

- those that cared enough to sign thier name or show up did not. what other way would you measured it?

"past history with petitions and giving correct information is not very good"

- i've stated before that i have a copy of that petition in question in my email and i'd be happy to share it with anyone that's interetsed. BUT......that would dispell your conspiracy theory, so naturally noone asked to see it. Like always, as long as it sounds damning it doesn't have to be accurate.

"I have to call BS on that statement."

- anyone who cared to show up to the last Board meeting would know how members there are. Yes, they are the largest, and have well over 100. That's not BS. Clearly shown by the signatures as well.

I suppose "effective" is up to the eye of the beholder. I know other orgs are/have done great things too. This isn't a competition. For example, 3 projects in the works now: Main St improvements, major Park renovations, Main St Business enhancements wouldn't be happening or wouldn't be in the stage that they are now without thier them.

Arguing about this is not appealing. But....yet again I am (ha).

This is why I am calling BS- SPAR takes alot of credit for others work, and personally I am getting sick and tired of it. Normally I do not care (well at least I have learned to let it go since in the end all that is important is the betterment in the neighborhood) but for anyone to justify SPAR and the leadership by claiming other orgs works....well I am going to call BS. Did SPAR do the rose arbor? NOPE, they collected matching funds from neighbors but that is it, did they do the dog park, nope, did they do the restoration of the statues, create the fountain or bleachers in Klutho? Nope. SPAR should quit claiming others work as their own as a justification to bully the neighborhood.

I don't know why you feel the need to make a list....again, this isn't a competition. At least it shouldn't be. I haven't seen them take credit for anything they didn't do or assist in, including those things you mentioned.

Perhaps you can cite a recent example for me. I'd be curious.




Chrisufwgator,

"....so we know which capacity you're acting in when you do something"

- similar to what Lake, I, and others were commenting on yesterday with MetroJax, about how when a Board member takes a position on a ceratin issue or gives thier individual opinion...it's not an officially endoresed statement.

stephendare............to me this why MJ and similar sites have the power to invoke passion as well as discussion. Since we all live in JACKSONVILLE, what effects one neighborhood will, if not already, effect the others!

QuoteFSU813: I don't know why you feel the need to make a list....again, this isn't a competition. At least it shouldn't be. I haven't seen them take credit for anything they didn't do or assist in, including those things you mentioned.

Perhaps you can cite a recent example for me. I'd be curious.

SPAR Council has made many lists of their claimed many and varied accomplishments.  They also have references to various things "they" have accomplished in SPAR Speaks, the newsletter, and just letters to various people.  In a recent one, it was very much implied that SPAR Council had promoted the formation of various additional community groups.  At least one of those groups took exception as they were here first.  Not to mention that some of these new groups chose to be under a different non-profit rather than SPAR Council.

Many times, it is not a cut and dried statement that "we did this" but a very much implied "look at this great thing we have because of us" and SPAR Council has this bad habit of doing it without giving proper credit.  Even with large projects like Main Street, it can be easily seen that newer residents who have not followed events here for many years would easily be lead to believe it was all SPAR Council’s doing while in reality, their part was small, still important, but small.  And as you can see, it is not just me, but a number of others feel this way as well.

You often do not get told about this occurring because most do indeed realize it is not a competition.  Too bad Louise and Company often seems to think it is.

strider.............I got no problem with any horn honking.........but when you take credit for the music, you had better be the writer of the music!

Oh it's even better than that...

Louise's letter to President Obama, taking credit for anything and everything from the renovation of Main St. to the formation of the garden club (founded ca. 1922 vs. SPAR founded ca. 1974, LMFAO!), and so much more, just sums everything up.

But Strider, don't feel left out, she also took time to write a couple paragraphs on how your social services businesses are responsible for an influx of weirdos that has caused all the problems around here. ROFL

I mean...this thing just speaks for itself;

Quote
Dear President-Elect Obama,

What an exciting time we are in, and what an optimism you and your promises of urban renewal bring to the Springfield National Historic District in Jacksonville, Florida, and areas like ours nationwide.

My name is Louise DeSpain, and I am the Executive Director of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization (SPAR) Council (www.sparcouncil.org). As indicated, Springfield is a National Historic District, and is located on the northern edge of the City of Jacksonville’s downtown Central Business District.

Like many urban neighborhoods, Springfield began declining in the 1950’s, endured racial conflict in the 1960s, and continued into physical, economic and educational deterioration, with increases in crime, drug usage/addiction, and teen birth/infant mortality rates well into the 1990s.

I believe you have familiarity with our neighborhood, as your Jacksonville campaign headquarters were located in one of our Klutho-designed historic structures at 1830 N. Main Street. Our community may not have been pretty when you visited, but SPAR’s hope is that soon, it will be pretty (but we've done SUCH a good job!), safe and enriching for all its residents.

Through resident commitment, municipal, state and federal programs, and with recent support from our District 7 Councilmember, Dr. Johnny Gaffney, Springfield has made much progress doing all of the “right” things:  ::)  ::)  ::) (yeah, that's why you're apologizing to Obama for even having to look at the place, right?)

- In 1987, a one-mile square area founded in 1869 and containing a significant number of homes and commercial buildings constructed from the 1890s-1920s, was designated the Springfield National Historic District (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfield,_Jacksonville,_Florida);

- In 1994, the Springfield area and many of its surrounding neighborhoods were designated a Federal Empowerment Zone;

- In 1995, the State of Florida passed similar legislation designating the area a Florida Enterprise Zone. SPAR now fundraises in three key areas, Residential Safety & Maintenance, Commercial Corridor Revitalization, and Hogan’s Creek Parks Revitalization, through the Enterprise Zone’s Community Contribution Tax Credit program (§220.183 F.S.);

- In 2001, the Springfield Historic District Zoning Overlay was enacted, protecting the community from new infiltration of inappropriate land uses; (Insert Joe and Gloria's picture here)

- Since 2003, the City of Jacksonville has invested more than $20M on streetscape improvement, including new underground utility, sewer and stormwater infrastructure, on our two main commercial corridors, Main Street and 8th Street;

- Between the mid-1990s and the mid-2000s, SHARP grants and façade grants were available to support existing, and attract new, residents and businesses in the area;

- Springfield has been working closely with its primary “economic engines,” UF/Shands Jacksonville, Florida Community College at Jacksonville (FCCJ) and Bethel Baptist.

o UF/Shands is the Northeast Florida region’s indigent-care facility and Level 1 Trauma Center. The University of Florida has its Medical, Nursing, Pharmacy, and Dentistry schools at this location, and has constructed a $150M proton-therapy cancer treatment center on the Historic District’s border. In conjunction with the County and State Boards of Health, the new federal Veterans Administration facility, and our own Darnell Cookman Middle School of the Medical Arts, Springfield is becoming a regional health and wellness cluster; (Wait a second, wasn't she actually opposed to additional VA presence?)

o FCCJ is the region’s community college focused on transitional jobs and career pathways, and has recently been designated a State College that will offer four-year workforce training and bachelor’s degrees;

- The community has attracted a couple of private developers who are affecting positive change â€" SRG Homes & Neighborhoods (srghomes.com) builds historically-appropriate, single- and multi-family infill homes, and utilizes Empowerment and FLEnterprise Zone credits. (on lots that become vacant due to our code-enforcement call-ins, how convenient!) And Cesery Cos. is building the first new building on Main Street â€" a 47,000 square foot mixed-use project â€" in 40 years, that is expected to add 12 full-time jobs to the area;

- SPAR has been in close partnership with the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office (JSO) for the past three years. Springfield hosts a monthly Sheriff’s Advisory Committee (SHADCO) meeting, and SPAR, working with private partners, has funded in excess of $500,000 of community policing over that time period;

- Since 2006, SPAR has worked closely with the City of Jacksonville’s Code Compliance division to enforce municipal code violations in the community that continue to cause blight and deterioration. (Yeah I'll say so, they sure keep COJ's phones ringing off the hook with bogus complaints!) SPAR has a very successful Block Captains program and ,with the support of private partners, funded in excess of $500,000 of litter and trash removal;

- SPAR has expressed its interest in partnering with the City of Jacksonville’s Housing and Neighborhoods department to implement the Neighborhood Stabilization Program, and specifically HERA 2008 §2301(c)(3)(D) and 24 CFR 570.201(d), within the portion of the 32206 ZIP targeted area that is overlapped by the Historic District;  ::)  ::)  ::) Yes, I'd like more power please! Holy crap, if you think condo boards are bad, you better hope THIS doesn't happen...

- The Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) submitted an operational grant application to the Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) to provide a more reliable and frequent trolley service from the residential areas of the community to/from its nearby economic and employment centers;

- SPAR has recently partnered with the Local Initiatives Support Corporation (LISC) to receive board training and a grant to employ a Commercial Corridor coordinator and Americorps assistant. LISC and the International Council of Shopping Centers (ICSC) named Springfield one of the top five emerging urban markets nationwide along with Bedford-Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, and communities in Philadelphia, Detroit and Minneapolis (yes, we're getting compared to bed-stuy, brooklyn, and detroit, but naturally, we've still done SUCH a good job) ;

- Springfield has a 27-acre string of parks that adjoin the Historic District and Jacksonville’s central business district. The park system contains Hogan’s Creek, which flows into the St. Johns River, one of 14 American Heritage Rivers, and contains remnants of a stormwater management systems engineered in 1928. In 2006, Springfield hosted the Jacksonville Symphony Orchestra for an outdoor concert and holds 4th of July “throwback” baseball games and other events on an annual basis; (I never knew SPAR paid for the Symphony Orchestra! Man, who knew! Clearly credit where credit is due...)

- The City of Jacksonville has included a one-block area of this park system in its list of ash clean-up sites, as a result of an EPA lawsuit; (yes, because getting sued by the EPA is always something you want to brag about to the President...)

- SPAR has grown the organizational capacity of the neighborhood, which now has a merchants and business association (SAMBA), an animal rescue group (SACARC), a Mommies Group, a Garden Club, the first Girl Scouts of America troop in 50 years, and more; (WOW, talk about credit-taking! Who knew that SPAR started the Garden Club? Especially since the Garden Club was founded in 1922, and SPAR was founded in 1974. Time-travel is definitely one hell of an accomplishment!)

- Springfield is the home of four excellent youth programs/centers including The Bridge (modeling its programs on the Harlem Children’s Zone), The Sanctuary (the subject of NPR spoken-word-artist Al Letson’s “Summer at Sanctuary” â€" stateofthereunion.com), The Boys’ and Girls’ Club, and the Robert F. Kennedy Community Center (municipal);

- Springfield, and more specifically the Klutho Building at 1830 N. Main St., is the home of Operation New Hope, which created the nationally-recognized Ready4Work program for ex-offenders; and, (so wait a second...apparently we don't mind convicted felons running around, but those awful recovering alcoholics and community service orgs that I just don't like, are responsible for ALL the problems around here!)

- Is adjacent to, and has close relationships with, nearby successful urban Jacksonville CDCs, including Ron Pauline’s MetroNorth CDC (metronorthcdc.org) and Paul Tutwiler’s Northwest Jacksonville CDC (northwestjaxcdc.org). (I wonder if they would agree as to how close their relationship is?)

As you can see, SPAR, in partnership with the public and private organizations at the local, state and national levels, has taken a very comprehensive approach to revitalization, because we know we must provide an environment where pride and economic success can be achieved by all of our residents (Yup, that's why we call in bogus complaints and oppose zoning variances when new businesses want to open up in our neighborhood!). Despite our progress, we also face many hurdles ahead: (like we might finally be forced to hold elections!)

- Underfunded Community Development Block Grant (CDBG) needs in Springfield; our neighborhood’s “gateway” is blighted by a 1960s hotel that makes our community look more like Beirut than an urban National Historic District. This hotel at 901 N. Main St. is privately-owned, and is a Superfund site (FLSFN0407139) for which “an eligible response site (ERS) exclusion decision has been made;” (OK, I gotta agree with her there, the Park View is an eyesore and a half)

- Environmental contamination throughout the 27-acre park system that has been known about, but considered too large/costly a problem to fix, since 1993; Hogan’s Creek contamination flowing into the St. Johns River; un-maintained park infrastructure - deteriorated or destroyed stormwater system results in regular flooding and sewer overflows in the community;

- FDOT rejected Springfield’s trolley grant. The JTA has been exploring streetcar, a transit option that is proven to result in economic development, but anticipates transportation funding will be directed toward suburban road development;

- In today’s banking climate, the re-development of Springfield’s commercial corridors is more severely handicapped â€" by lack of available credit and developer incentives â€" than it would have otherwise been by what much of the retailing industry considers “undesirable demographics;”

- Lack of municipal funding for CPTED-based crime prevention measures, trash and litter control, public space maintenance and youth programming in the urban core neighborhoods â€" Jacksonville has been unable to identify adequate funding for programs mandated by ordinance (Zero Tolerance on Litter), nor can our private partners sustain their investment in municipal services in today’s economy; (how much trash could you pick up in all that time you spend feuding with your own neighbors)

- The high concentration of social service organizations in and near our District does not adequately serve a city of Jacksonville’s size, resulting in an overflow of under-served homeless and mentally-challenged persons into the community; and (yes, please refer to those photos of Joe and Gloria included for the CIA's convenience)

- Springfield’s greatest hurdle is the speed at which government, at any level, operates. (Yup, as stated in multiple e-mails to every city official imaginable, we just can't tear these damned historic houses down fast enough!)

Again, Mr. Obama, we are buoyed by your attention to the plight of the urban community and its residents and proponents. I am aware you recently held a “summit” in the capital with 2,000 community organizers â€" I look forward to hearing how their input, as well as that from Adolfo Carrion of the Office of Urban Policy and Melody Barnes of the Domestic Policy Council, will benefit communities nationwide like the Springfield Historic District. (wow, 2,000 different community orgs and SPAR wasn't even invited? But we're doing SUCH a good job...)

Springfield’s location makes it an optimal solution to Jacksonville’s economic and environmental sprawl, and the community supports the Obama-Biden Plan, and its focus on cities. We welcome you back to Springfield anytime you are in Northeast Florida. (nice to know SPAR declares the Springfield community are all Obama-Biden supporters)

Best regards,

Louise DeSpain, Executive Director
Springfield Preservation and Revitalization (SPAR) Council

Bwhaahahhaahhaahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..........

I would guess from the letter that Mr Oboma is on the approved list? Which brings me back to just how many people in the Springfield area are members of SPAR? If it is a one square mile of area and that is broken down into a grid I would have to guess there are about 800 persons who live in that square.............  could be more could be less......but somewhere around there. Anyone got a better number?

Quote from: fsu813I don't know why you feel the need to make a list....again, this isn't a competition. At least it shouldn't be. I haven't seen them take credit for anything they didn't do or assist in, including those things you mentioned.

Perhaps you can cite a recent example for me. I'd be curious.

This is the problem, you've asked for proof of this and that, and it's been given to you over and over. No matter what is presented, you always come back with how wonderful spar is, blowing off anything that others have stated. The Lord could come and present you with proof and you'd blow that off to.

This is exactly why, along with your blatantly obvious support of an organization that does not, and hasn't for years, represents the community of Historic Springfield; that this desire of yours to hold a community meeting to resolve the issues and concerns, is nothing but a pile of crap. You have proven over and over that no matter what is presented to you, which shows how spar has worked against not only the neighborhood as a whole, but even it's own membership, that you do not and refuse to see things for what they truly are. That's fine, you can stick with this mystical and oh so wonderful version you have of spar, but don't try and snow the rest of us into thinking that you want to see the fences mended, when you've clearly planted yourself on one side and blow off anyone from the other.

It's my opinion that this wanting to fix things, this desire to heal the neighborhood and bring all parties together and work things out, is a pile of crap. You've demonstrated over and over, that you have no sincere interest in what you claim to want...I, for one, have not seen where you have shown anything but contempt for anything that someone states, that differs with your unrealistic views of spar. That in of itself, shows how un-sincere your claim is to help resolve any uncomfortable issues.

oh gosh.

Strider,

As you know, it's important for a non-profit to inform people what they are or have been involved in, so people can have an idea of what they do.

I think everyone would agree that they have indeed "promoted the formation of various additional groups". Very much so. This is a rather vague statement though, so "promoting" can be as simple as letting everyone know about the organization and what the latest is with them (ie, newsletter). Which would be true, would it not? Especially because thier newsletter reaches far more people than any other type of regular SPR correspsondance. That is promoting 101.

I see that as an example of how an opinion is formed and events (or words) are seen through pre-determined opinion. (ie, Spar is bad, so therefore everything is interpretted in a distrustful, negative way).

Your use of "implied" & "it is not a cut and dried statement" validate that they haven't exactly claimed specific credit for anything they haven't taken part in, but instead you have interpretted it that way.



Chrisufwgator,

Another great illustration of how something written in black & white can be seen different ways:

"SPAR has grown the organizational capacity of the neighborhood, which now has a merchants and business association (SAMBA), an animal rescue group (SACARC), a Mommies Group, a Garden Club, the first Girl Scouts of America troop in 50 years, and more"

I can see how someone could see it as them taking credit for the various groups, though I didn't take that way. It's a wording fopaw, trying to cram too much info into a bullit point. The difference is that you think it's a nefarious attempt, while someone without a vendetta would say "oh ok, that probably should have been clearer".


Springfielder,

I have to repsectfully disagree that "you've (I) asked for proof of this and that, and it's been given to you (me) over and over".

I'm not sure what proof you are referencing. Perhaps you could be more specific.


"....blowing off anything that others have stated" & "you have shown anything but contempt for anything that someone states, that differs with your unrealistic views"

Rather the contrary. I've agreed with many issues people have taken with the organization (ie, see above for an example), but instead of looking at them as sinister, deliberate, and evil, i've taken a more even-keeled perspective......mistakes happen, no organization is perfect, especially of this ilk, but they are not cruel intentions, rather they are grounded in the best interests of the 'hood. If you disagree with that basic premise (that they have the best interest of the 'hood in mind) then i understand how you would disagree with everything else too.

In fairness, the vast majority of the criticisms are given out by about 6 people, half of which let thier emotions get the best of logic & reason, the other half are too uninformed to know they are uniformed. Others have had critisicms too, of course. But the vast majority come from a a select few who you can count on being hyper-critical no matter what...which often results in questionable critisizisms.


"...that does not, and hasn't for years, represents the community"

- they are the largest organization in the community. if the largest organization doesn't represent the neighborhood, then who does?


"this desire to heal the neighborhood and bring all parties together and work things out, is a pile of crap" & "this desire of yours to hold a community meeting to resolve the issues and concerns, is nothing but a pile of crap"

- well hey. if it's pulled off, you certainly don't have to come. i guess if you have to be angry with & distrustful of someone, might as well be someone who you've never met, (myself) huh?

Trust me, I want no part of it.  As for what proof has been shown/stated...you're kidding.

Stephen,

"What group has SPAR encouraged or help to begin? What percentage is that number of the total number of groups in springfield?"

- any group that they publicized in the early months or years of that group. Or any group that was disbanded/non-functioning for a time, in which they publicized thier rivitalization efforts. Not sure what the % is. What would you guess?

"How many paid members does spar have at the present time?
How many of them are 'active members'."

- like i said before, well over 100 paid members. What's your defintion of 'active'?

"How many copies of the newsletter are sent out?
How does this compare with the traffic numbers for springfield news in metrojacksonville.com, urbanjacksonville.com and myspringfield.com/forums. "

- the email version of the newsletter is sent our to about 500 people. The hard copy version is sent out to members and distriubuted to some neighborood businesses to re-distriubute as well. So, an educated guess would be about 200 or so there. The newsletter is also posted regularly to the Myspringfield.org website, as well as thier own (which is under construction right now). I have no idea how many hits Myspringfield receives or thier own (when not under construction). MetroJax's mission, responsibilites, and role isn't similar with SPAR's or any other neighborhood organization's, so i don't think that's a legit comparison.




What date was Riverside Avondale Preservation formed? Good grief. I'm not interested your minutia quiz, especially about other areas. I'm also not interested in rehashing contraversial stuff that went on years ago. I've said that many a time. I wasn't here, so i can't speak authortatively about it.

I don't see how that benefits anything or anyone now, except score settling.

It's not forward thinking, which is where my state of mind is. 

 FSU813, you often promote and defend SPAR Council and their vision for Springfield.  You often give credit to them for all the positive things that they have done and will do.  You constantly insult and belittle those who speak against this "wonderful, all inclusive" organization.  Yet you often ignore presented facts, either disbelieve or discredit other's opinions and either have chosen to ignore or do not know the history behind it all.

You, and a few others, keep repeating, for instance, that the by-laws are being followed and reviewed  by LISC, yet a simple review of the by-laws and the various newsletters and SPAR Speaks shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the by-laws are indeed being ignored. 

Again, if SPAR Council has "well over 100 members" why did Louise not say that at the recent Planning Commission meeting? Why use a lower number of whom she represented?  Why is the membership number a secret?  I can guess, but shouldn’t have to.

Oh, and I made a quick check, you are part of the team that helps place Proton patients, correct?  Then why  are you still promoting an illegal rooming house in Springfield to potential proton patients on the website? Not just in one place, but two?  Not that you and SPAR Council board members can be hypocritical or anything, but isn’t there a big push against illegal rooming houses going on?

You and your fellow “support SPAR Council at any cost” posters are doing a great job at accomplishing what needs to happen here.  Proving that Springfield needs another organization to step up and take over for a SPAR Council that has lost it’s way and no longer can perform it’s mandated mission.

Looks to me like the current SPAR Organization was built on the bones of the original! I wonder if they took credit for that also!

I just thought SPAR was SPAR. Didn't realize they'd had so many implosions and rebirths, only to implode again.

I guess that whole "learning from your past mistakes" thing hasn't caught on over there yet.

Yea........gives one a distinct empression there is no sense of History with SPAR! Not good for a organization if they can not learn from their past mistakes is it?

Quote from: stephendare on January 17, 2010, 01:28:02 PM
There are two entities listed on the Sunbiz pages:  Springfield Preservation and Restoration and Springfield Preservation and Revitalization.  The second one was registered on April 19, 2004.

Interestingly enough the change occurred about the same time that one major developer starting having influence -- and not inconsequentially,  that's when the houses started getting torn down.

Perhaps changing "Restoration" to "Revitalization" wasn't a good move for a historic neighborhood.

We got our "Rs" all mixed up.

Everyone left the cities across the country in the 60s.  My mom worked in DC during the riots (1968).  At that time, she rode the bus from the suburbs (Fairfax) where we lived into DC.  During one bus ride, a man had a heart attack (presumably from the tension they felt as they were stuck on a bridge trying to get home).  The company she was working for quickly moved out of the city after that and no one went downtown for years.  This happened across the country.  White people (my family included) were afraid that "colored people" were going to take over the country and were pretty much scared into heart attacks all around.  I'm thinking a lot of that was fueled by guilt (they sort of knew their collective gooses were cooked). 

It was a very odd time.  Middle class white folks were scared of African Americans, scared of teenagers with long hair, scared of communist infiltration, scared of women who didn't wear bras.  No wonder they ran to the suburbs and planted hidey holes of houses in cul-de-sacs.

That War did suck! But it at least started out as a Police Action not War from the start! Classic example of warfare being conducted by political guidance...........not smart from a tactical view! Two going on now we should not have gotten involved in either.......but hay next generations turn! Allways did appreciate women wearing no support assembly..............lets hear it for mother natures natural engineering! Hurah! Hurah!

Quote from: fsu813 on January 17, 2010, 09:14:26 AM
In fairness, the vast majority of the criticisms are given out by about 6 people, half of which let thier emotions get the best of logic & reason, the other half are too uninformed to know they are uniformed. Others have had critisicms too, of course. But the vast majority come from a a select few who you can count on being hyper-critical no matter what...which often results in questionable critisizisms.

Wonder which category you would lump me in if I were to speak up. Where do you take all your inside knowledge about SPAR from anyways ?

Quote from: uptowngirl on January 15, 2010, 05:04:11 PM
This is why I am calling BS- SPAR takes alot of credit for others work, and personally I am getting sick and tired of it. Normally I do not care (well at least I have learned to let it go since in the end all that is important is the betterment in the neighborhood) but for anyone to justify SPAR and the leadership by claiming other orgs works....well I am going to call BS. Did SPAR do the rose arbor? NOPE, they collected matching funds from neighbors but that is it, did they do the dog park, nope, did they do the restoration of the statues, create the fountain or bleachers in Klutho? Nope. SPAR should quit claiming others work as their own as a justification to bully the neighborhood.

Yeah, that's been bothering me for a while too. SPAR is taking credit for things that SPAR may have only been remotely involved or for work of other organizations which SPAR "endorses".

Well, today I signed our contract with Lisa to have our house built on 4th street.  We also had the chance to meet some of our neighbors and are really looking forward to meeting more in Feb at first Fridays. 

I also wanted to thank Lisa for the "please boycott/do not shop at list" for the neighborhood.  The SPAR package included other things such as "the halfway houses are the devil" and "please give Silas the cold shoulder" flyers.  I promise to drink the "Kool-aid".  I'm also happy to hear that if me and my wife join SPAR during the month of Jan, it is triple membership month, that we will increase the membership by 6!


;)

Quote from: stephendare on January 17, 2010, 11:42:39 PM
lol.  you laugh now!

But who knows, maybe the tide has turned.

Welcome to the neighborhood StenoDave (and family)

LOL, thanks Stephen

Alex S,

You aren't one of the 6.  You don't produce enough negative threads to qualify, plus you are a little too reason-driven. Once you churn out 3-4 negative propaganda threads a month and selectively use information you can be part of thier club.



Strider,

"You, and a few others, keep repeating, for instance, that the by-laws are being followed and reviewed  by LISC, yet a simple review of the by-laws and the various newsletters and SPAR Speaks shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the by-laws are indeed being ignored."

- i've never, even once, stated that they follow thier by-laws to the letter. You know, as you have commented on this before, that I personally don't care if they technically follow every by-law or not. Some have no affect on anything, imo, such as what specific month elections are held. As long as they are held, I don't care what month it's in. In your view this is an unforgoivable sin, I know.

"Again, if SPAR Council has "well over 100 members" why did Louise not say that at the recent Planning Commission meeting? Why use a lower number of whom she represented?  Why is the membership number a secret?  I can guess, but shouldn’t have to."

- i can't say for sure. Like I said, anyone who was at the last Board member meeting (I observed) would know how many members they have. I assume they don't want people such as yourself to know the exact number because, whatever it is, you'd try and use it against them somehow. If there such thing as safe bet, that would be one.

".... promoting an illegal rooming house in Springfield to potential proton patients on the website? Not just in one place, but two?"

- There is 1 property (out of 75 or so) that operates in a somewhat similar way to your own. It is not illegal, obviously, as it doesn't have more than 5 unrelated, temporary residents. If there is a need to remove it in the future then it shall be done promptly.

QuoteYou, and a few others, keep repeating, for instance, that the by-laws are being followed and reviewed by LISC, yet a simple review of the by-laws and the various newsletters and SPAR Speaks shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that the by-laws are indeed being ignored."

- i've never, even once, stated that they follow thier by-laws to the letter. You know, as you have commented on this before, that I personally don't care if they technically follow every by-law or not. Some have no affect on anything, imo, such as what specific month elections are held. As long as they are held, I don't care what month it's in. In your view this is an unforgoivable sin, I know.

Which begs for the question, just how many laws do you think it is Ok for them to ignore? Your stance on this puts your integrity in question.

Quote".... promoting an illegal rooming house in Springfield to potential proton patients on the website? Not just in one place, but two?"

- There is 1 property (out of 75 or so) that operates in a somewhat similar way to your own. It is not illegal, obviously, as it doesn't have more than 5 unrelated, temporary residents. If there is a need to remove it in the future then it shall be done promptly.

Oh really?  Well, let's post the ad here and let others see if this place is being leased as a single family home or as a quasi and unlicensed bed and breakfast, which, by the way, fits the description of an illegal rooming house: (I removed their names and phones numbers from here)

Quote$700-$900/mo, no pets, $350-$450 sec. dep. Heritage Inn is a former B&B mansion that has been beautifully preserved and maintained since 1904. Overlooking scenic Klutho Park, it has four different-sized rooms for our patients (2 large, 1 medium, 1 small), each with its own refrigerator, Internet and bathroom. Patients share the kitchen, laundry room, living room, and front and back porches. You may relax by soaking in the Jacuzzi spa or gliding down the gorgeous street on bicycles, both for patients. Semper Fi.
FYI: Patients can also stay here for their 3-day work ups as well.XXXX will come pick you up from the airport when you arrive, as well as make you breakfast each morning you're here for the 3-day work up.
1217 Boulevard St.
Jacksonville, FL 32206

They are advertising.  They are advertising rooms.  They are advertising that they were once a bed and breakfast (which they never did get a license for). They are advertising that you can stay as little as 3 days.  They are saying that they will make breakfast for their guests, which fit’s the description of a boarding house.

So, you need to check to see if they have a license as a rooming house or bed and breakfast, as well as a license for a commercial kitchen as they offer to cook for their guests.

Do I need to post the actual codes they are in violation of, FSU 813,  or do you think you can go find them yourself?

The truth be told, I really do not care if they rent rooms or not.  I do care that the same people who complain about our code enforcement checked and passed (under the accepted interpetation of the code of 2 months ago) rental houses have the audacity to be this blatantly hypocritical.

This is being A SPAR Council supporter at it’s best.  But anyone who was at the “rooming house issue” meeting with Louise and Company a while ago got to see that first hand.

strider.........it is obvious to me there appears to be two seperate sets of rules ............one for the herd and one for SPAR blessed!

Quote from: fsu813 on January 17, 2010, 10:21:42 AM


I mean, I know that it's CS Foltz & Chrisufwgator's role to jump in and agree with everything blindly, but they don't start the threads though.

I envision CS Foltz as the parrot on Blackbeard's shoulder, repeating & agreeing with everything that his master says.

Awwwww...........I think you just put me down? Geez..........where is my seeing eye hound when I needem!

I think I asked this question before but, heck, I'll ask it again.  If so many people don't like SPAR (news flash FSU813, it's a lot more than 6) why exactly is it, given all the neighborhood talent/history there isn't a new group formed?  I understand that they have the "brand" thing going with the city - but hey, sometimes you have to go back to go forward.  Of course, forming a new organization totally takes all the fun out of the infinite pages of the SPAR sucks and then someone else will be held accountable when the sky falls.  It really is fairly simple, don't like it - don't join, hate it so bad - make something better.  It's time for a few people to suck it up and put their big girl panties on. 

Cindi, you offering to help form a new organization?  To be honest, while it has and is being talked about, I think one of the other existing organizations would be the better way to go.

Quote from: Stenodave on January 17, 2010, 11:38:29 PM
Well, today I signed our contract with Lisa to have our house built on 4th street.  We also had the chance to meet some of our neighbors and are really looking forward to meeting more in Feb at first Fridays. 

I also wanted to thank Lisa for the "please boycott/do not shop at list" for the neighborhood.  The SPAR package included other things such as "the halfway houses are the devil" and "please give Silas the cold shoulder" flyers.  I promise to drink the "Kool-aid".  I'm also happy to hear that if me and my wife join SPAR during the month of Jan, it is triple membership month, that we will increase the membership by 6!


;)

Who at SPAR do I contact regarding the incomplete flyer I recieved today about their book burning rally this weekend?  You didn't list a start time, I don't want to be late.

Quote from: strider on January 18, 2010, 11:08:47 PM
Cindi, you offering to help form a new organization?  To be honest, while it has and is being talked about, I think one of the other existing organizations would be the better way to go.

nope, not at all.  as for the other existing organization - i think i have already said somewhere, if you think for a minute you are going to unass the current leadership, you are just plain silly.  there will be world peace and my house will be completely rehabbed before that happens. which brings me back to the original question - if all the people that are so opposed to SPAR can do it so much better, why aren't they?  over the past couple of weeks there has been ample news coverage etc.  or does it boil down to a case of mouth overloading the butt?
God can turn water into wine, but he can’t turn whining into anything

Thanks stephendare.............but if fsu813 wants to have a battle of wits with me, he is only half armed so let him take his best shot! I have ignored worse and in his case probably a better person for it!

cindi.............this is something that I had suggested long ago! SPAR wants to play games then let them, form another organization and just by pass them. Adhear to the by-laws, Florida Laws and Codes and away you go! I know that this is a simple thing for something that would take some work but Springfield may have to if SPAR continues to represent no one but their inner circle & a select few! Springfield deserves better!

Cindi,

I suggested  many months ago that if people think Spar does such a horrible job, then they should try and do it better. I suggested this over and over again. Surprise! Noone really wants to put in the time, energy, and money to create & run effective organization that does everything Spar does.... they'd rather just complain. I shouldn't say "noone", as some, i'm sure, would. Including myself, if it I was ever so inclined.

Also, my reference to the group 6 isn't that there are only 6 people who dislike Spar for one reason or another. It's the group of 6 who regular bash Spar for questionable reasons or in questionable ways. You can count of them always, no matter, having something bad to say about them. This is the group of 6 that I am referring.

"Who at SPAR do I contact regarding the incomplete flyer I recieved today about their book burning rally this weekend?  You didn't list a start time, I don't want to be late."

The virgin sacrifice is at 12 Noon and the "round up" is at 3pm......so probably somewhere in between.

It is a leadership issue, really...If Jack Meeks stepped up to the plate and made the organization follow its by-laws, quit attacking neighbors and business owners, and focused on transparency, I know that I would, for one, shut up.  Louise has lost credibility with too many people to be the leader that this neighborhood needs and she is leading the crew down dead-end roads.

I have high hopes for SAMBA.  Joe and I are going to give this organization our support.

The Women's Club is a fine organization -- you don't hear me being negative about them.

This neighborhood needs a leader, it is crying out for one.  Will it be SAMBA, The Women's Club, or will SPAR's Jack Meeks take control of the situation? 

time will tell.

Quote from: FLDrifter on January 18, 2010, 11:30:22 PM
Stephen Dare started sharp. There was a thread about it. Is it still alive?

There were like 6 threads about it, LOL

Every single one got shit-bombed with drama by SPAR supporters and the moderators locked them down. I guess Stephen can always try for #7, but I think we all know what's going to happen to it, so I'm not real sure what the point would be.

I think SHARP's being handled solely through e-mail now. The e-mail address is floating around here somewhere.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on January 19, 2010, 08:55:53 AM

Quote from: FLDrifter on January 18, 2010, 11:30:22 PM
Stephen Dare started sharp. There was a thread about it. Is it still alive?

There were like 6 threads about it, LOL

Every single one got shit-bombed with drama by SPAR supporters and the moderators locked them down. I guess Stephen can always try for #7, but I think we all know what's going to happen to it, so I'm not real sure what the point would be.

I think SHARP's being handled solely through e-mail now. The e-mail address is floating around here somewhere.

so if someone "shit-bombs" SHARP it gets shut down but check every thread under springfield - shitbombing of SPAR is a requirement.  if an organization is so sensitive to shitbombing so early in it's development, it's going to have a hard road ahead in springfield.  so, what it appears to boil down to is - the spar haters want themla and louise OUT and a complete cleaning of house as far as SPAR board member are concerned.  The odds of this happening are about the same as me winning the lotto (and i don't play the lotto so the odds just got a little worse), not quite sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. instead of getting a firm grasp on reality and moving on the whining just keeps on. 

Goes without question that "Aunt Elubelle" should resign! She and Johnny both share an outlook that does not cater to the local area or neighborhood! From what I have gathered, talking to so-called professionals in my world, two to five years down range before values are stabilized and start to go up! If Springfield has not experienced bottoming yet...........it's coming! Last time I was through that area, Main Street was still a work in progress but the general area had not picked up as to looks or cleanliness! Many many empty lots and old bldgs that had failed business's in them.......area needs help and SPAR is not doing the job!

Quote from: strider on January 18, 2010, 06:19:11 PM

Quote

Oh really?  Well, let's post the ad here and let others see if this place is being leased as a single family home or as a quasi and unlicensed bed and breakfast, which, by the way, fits the description of an illegal rooming house: (I removed their names and phones numbers from here)

Quote$700-$900/mo, no pets, $350-$450 sec. dep. Heritage Inn is a former B&B mansion that has been beautifully preserved and maintained since 1904. Overlooking scenic Klutho Park, it has four different-sized rooms for our patients (2 large, 1 medium, 1 small), each with its own refrigerator, Internet and bathroom. Patients share the kitchen, laundry room, living room, and front and back porches. You may relax by soaking in the Jacuzzi spa or gliding down the gorgeous street on bicycles, both for patients. Semper Fi.
FYI: Patients can also stay here for their 3-day work ups as well.XXXX will come pick you up from the airport when you arrive, as well as make you breakfast each morning you're here for the 3-day work up.
1217 Boulevard St.
Jacksonville, FL 32206

They are advertising.  They are advertising rooms.  They are advertising that they were once a bed and breakfast (which they never did get a license for). They are advertising that you can stay as little as 3 days.  They are saying that they will make breakfast for their guests, which fit’s the description of a boarding house.

So, you need to check to see if they have a license as a rooming house or bed and breakfast, as well as a license for a commercial kitchen as they offer to cook for their guests.

Do I need to post the actual codes they are in violation of, FSU 813,  or do you think you can go find them yourself?

The truth be told, I really do not care if they rent rooms or not.  I do care that the same people who complain about our code enforcement checked and passed (under the accepted interpetation of the code of 2 months ago) rental houses have the audacity to be this blatantly hypocritical.

This is being A SPAR Council supporter at it’s best.  But anyone who was at the “rooming house issue” meeting with Louise and Company a while ago got to see that first hand.

At the end of the day, who cares?  Point is (to those -- and you know who you are) quit throwing stones, quit being hypocrites. Quit tossing out RED ALERTS if you are less "legal" than we are and we might start having some peace and quite in this neighborhood.