Lately with all of the different changes worldwide relative to economics, finances, political, and even military, I can't help but think of what the future holds for our nation. It doesn't look good. Though Obama has stressed "change" for our nation for the good, it still appears that dark and satanic forces are poised over our nation that prevents us from moving forward the way we would like. I firmly believe we will never be the America we knew before 9-11. Recently, within the past few years, I have stumbled across numerous links and sites on the internet regarding America's possible demise, from modern day prophets and ordinary people who have had visions and/or dreams; some are religious in nature and some not...so, check out the below links and tell me what y'all think:
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=propheti
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=mourning
http://en.believethesign.com/index.php?title=America_in_Ashes
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=missileattacks
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=five
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=secretattack
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=wariscoming
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=overtakers
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=visionofend
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=thecard
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=memphis-mushroomcloud#DC
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=nuke
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=usrent
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=comingcalamities
"HU"
I think we can all guess what Bostech is hoping for...
Thanks for posting the links, I've seen the site in the past, but it's been long ago. Many will disagree, I honestly believe it's because we are becoming a secular society.
(http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/map.gif)
Texas gone....excellent.
When it all goes down, I want to be Burgermeister of CLEVELAND!
By the way brother Heights, what do you think about the Bible Code?
http://www.bible-codes.org/why-genuine-mene-tekel-uparsin-riddles-2.htm
(This seems like a fair site)
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Johnny on December 26, 2009, 03:54:42 PM
I think we can all guess what Bostech is hoping for...
Thanks for posting the links, I've seen the site in the past, but it's been long ago. Many will disagree, I honestly believe it's because we are becoming a secular society.
And what is that I am hoping for???
Maybe it is just karma biting you back.
Look at Serbs,they were once prosperous nation and today they are nobody's.
Went from good to bad,all because they weren't happy with what they had,they wanted more and they thought they could exploit their neighbors.
US use to stand for what it was right back in cold days(and trust me there were lot of wrongs too) but now US only stands for...us.
Just trying to feed own addiction to money,regardless who gets hurt.
Its nothing but karma,you screw others and comes back to hunt you.
You can always do right thing and stand for whats right,not what makes you most money.
But that will not happen,instead it will get greedier,demand more money and power while losing its worth.
US will end up like Amy Winehouse,talent and voice but wasted on drugs and booze.
And best prophecy I ever heard was made by few Serbian peasants back in 19 century.
They didnt have any education and spoke like peasants,using unusal words and sentances.
They made prohecy when God will punish people by "making winter into summer".they predicted times when you wont be able to tell difference between man and woman,since they will dress and act almost same.When people wont know who their father and grandfather is.
They predicted both peace and wars that happened from 19 to today.They knew when peace will be and when wars were started.
Time when people will run into cities and neglect nature and run away from farms.Many towns and villages are literally dying today in area they were born.
They predict people digging for "gold" which will hurt Earth but only to discover "some force" around them after long time and realizing how stupid they were to dig for "gold" rather use that source thats around and available.
They predicted computer and Internet,but funny he said "people will talk long distance but still not able to contact us...dead people".
But I think there is iphone app for that.
They predicted war when "people lose humanity,rivers get polluted and you cant smell flavors".
And the worse prediction?
"There will be time where people will think they know everything,but they will know nothing".
Quote from: Bostech on December 27, 2009, 04:13:45 AM
"There will be time where people will think they know everything,but they will know nothing".
The irony
I love the Amy Winehouse comparison Bostech; that's a very good assertion of what we have become; but wait until the looks and the talent are taken away...then you're left with nothing except to look at yourself and who you really are...which is nothing.
I would like to also "respectfully" compare America to Michael Jackson; had humble roots and beginnings, rapidly arose to popularity, fame and fortune, had everything and lacked for absolutely nothing, and then was exposed which was the beginning of the downfall and later lost everything but desperately tried to maintain the image of fame, fortune, etc., with everyone knowing that there was not much left...and don't forget the constant borrowing upon borrowing to keep up the lifestyle that he was used to; and in the end tried to bounce back which was futile and vain resulting in his death being a shock and a surprise to the world because it happened without warning.
The comparison in the last paragraph is applicable to America; I hate to compare America to Michael Jackson but the comparions are unmistakable and almost to the tee identical. In the end America will die alone, with no friends, and no one will help us; the world will be shocked, sad, and surprised at our demise because who would have every thought so great and powerful of a nation, that had everything and had no need or want, could fall that hard and so fast.
"HU"
I agree with much of your post HU. Although my Christian views would be widely rejected here, I believe that THE PEOPLE of our country must return to our Christian values. We are divided by many issues, and we send politicians to State Houses and Washington D. C. who appear to be deliberately destroying the nation. And yet we bicker over details and allow ourselves to be distracted by the idiot box. Life is pretty simple. Live within (or slightly below) your means. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Help those that need help and punish those that need to be punished and don't be timid about either. Speak softly, but carry a big stick. WORK = SUCCESS.
Quote from: NotNow on December 27, 2009, 11:16:15 AM
I agree with much of your post HU. Although my Christian views would be widely rejected here, I believe that THE PEOPLE of our country must return to our Christian values. We are divided by many issues, and we send politicians to State Houses and Washington D. C. who appear to be deliberately destroying the nation. And yet we bicker over details and allow ourselves to be distracted by the idiot box. Life is pretty simple. Live within (or slightly below) your means. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Help those that need help and punish those that need to be punished and don't be timid about either. Speak softly, but carry a big stick. WORK = SUCCESS.
I agree wholeheartedly NotNow; and one of the reasons why we are falling on hard economic and financial times is because of our greed, selfishness, and treatment of others who are poor or have nothing (like the homeless, etc.), and this applies to other nations in the world as well; I hate to say it, but soon the majority of our population will know and feel what the homeless and others who are in need feel.
Here is another dream/vision that someone had that seems so real that as you read it, you'll feel you're there; time is running out folks; don't rely on government, rely on the one who made America great:
SUDDEN DESTRUCTION
Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves;
so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Mathew 10:16
The DAYS are GROWING DARKER and DARKER
Soon there will be NO Light at all.
I live in Louisiana near New Orleans.
This morning I woke up from the most realistic nightmare I have ever had in my life.
It has affected my whole day. Lake Pontchartrain is north of me,
crossed by two long bridges. The one the goes across the middle of the Lake
is called the Causeway, and is 27 miles long, the longest bridge in the world.
The Bridge that crosses the Eastern part of the lake is called the 5 mile long Twin Span.
DREAM
My family and I were sitting on the south end of the twin span bridge.
There were other people in their cars just sitting there with us,
like a traffic jam, buses, trucks, campers, etc. There seemed to be a toll gate
type of structure in the down position blocking our way from crossing the bridge.
There is no such structure in real life. We were actually out of the cars milling
around and talking with the other people when suddenly, KABOOM!
I looked southwest toward a city called Metairie.
I saw fire in the heavens in the shape of a burning ball.
A pillar of smoke like the Hiroshima and Nagasaki A-bombs,
ascended into the Atmosphere. We were all stunned into silence and Horror.
Metairie and half of New Orleans was gone. The fireball settled into a
reddish ball of churning fire, that looked almost like the setting sun
which was a few degrees to the north of the fire ball.
I began to think of the intense heat that was going on and how my in-laws,
many of whom live there, were faring. I realized they were probably dead.
Strategic Strikes
As I was gazing into this hellish sight, KABOOM!, due west another Bomb went off.
I knew it was the Russians and they had planned this.
They had destroyed the Causeway to cut off any travel by civilians and Military.
Within seconds, KABOOM! another Bomb hit Slidell on the North Shore, KABOOM,
another went off directly north of us destroying a major interstate junction.
Highways I-10 and I-12 join at this point. I realized I was witnessing not just
a random dropping of bombs, but a calculated and Strategic Strike.
The Bombs were not huge H-bombs but more like Tactical nukes.
When the one north of us hit, people began to panic and jumped into their cars
and actually drive North toward the destruction, where their families had just perished!
PAY ATTENTION!
Behaviors are strange in panic. Horses are known to run INTO burning barns.
We warned them not to go north, but many did not listen.
KABOOM! One hit on the North Shore of the bridge. I ran in terror back to my family
and told them to get down, because I knew the Shock wave was coming. KABOOM,
another one hit to the south of us in Chalmette, the Historic Site of the
Battle of New Orleans loaded with Oil refineries. We were totally cut off.
I could see the shock wave coming toward us like a boiling black cloud of debris.
At this point all was lost. I thought of my Internet friends who live in other countries,
and wondered if they would see this in the news because I knew it was probably happening
all over the USA. I couldn't believe the attack I had read about so much on the Internet
prophecies had just happened. It was so sudden! So unexpected!
We always in our minds think Oh this stuff is a few years away.
Well it just happened! I was caught totally off guard.
REPENTING TOO LATE
I dove toward the deck of the bridge and prayed to God, and asked forgiveness
of every sin I could think of especially my complacency.
Most never had a last minute chance to pray, they were taken into eternity in a fiery instant.
I saw two shock waves approaching from the north and south,
everything we knew was gone in a matter of a few minutes.
When the Shock wave hit me, I woke up in a sweat, shaking in fear!
Thank God I had a second chance. It was so real.
The sharpness of the explosions and the colors, the emotions, sounds, etc.
In fact I was thinking that I wished it was a dream, but knew it couldn't be.
It sure made me a little more urgent with my time left on this Earth.
I hear this from all over the USA, many different states.
This is graphic, and unfortunately many see this coming.
See DREAMS n VISIONS posted on the ZionsCry website and revlu.com
"HU"
Hey, NN, when the country returns to its "Christian Values" your can be the Minister of "non Christian person re-education and re-location"
And for those of you John Birch Society members here is another wonderful page from The UnleavenedBread site;
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=americaconquered (http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=americaconquered)
The question, then is what's going to get us first, the Antichrist or the Communists? This is actually an important question, because we only have finite resources to battle these twin perils, so their relative importance becomes a major concern.
Quote from: Johnny on December 27, 2009, 10:47:17 AM
Quote from: Bostech on December 27, 2009, 04:13:45 AM
"There will be time where people will think they know everything,but they will know nothing".
The irony
So you've been talking to some of our resident atheists and deists huh? I too agree with much of what HU has posted, but like Stephen, I'm just not certain WHEN it will happen. Certainly it's a process, and I too believe it has already started. I love the Bible Code Studies, but one has to be very careful not to try and be a magic prophet. Some of those codes might be warnings, but most seem to be God saying, "See, I told you so..." As for 12/23/12, I'd like to hear y'all on that subject, isn't it weird that the Christian Calender, Mayan Calender and some 10-12 others all predict something big on the same day?
This is fragile ground, so anyone on here that resorts to name calling, will be immediately shut down, possibly for good! Let's enjoy this and keep it civil!OCKLAWAHA
Midway, the point was that we have abandoned common sense. The usual din of partisanship and political posturing that many seem so eager to provoke only serves to distract the citizens. The large majority intuitively know we are on the wrong path and can discern the basic right and wrong of our government policies. In America you are free to worship as you wish. You can speak out. I believe in the values that Christianity taught me. I believe those values are shared by most other people, no matter their religious belief or their political persuasion. Once again, this is really pretty simple despite the shrill voices of some. The People should be free to pursue their lives as they see fit within our society. Government, while necessary, should be limited as much as possible in power and wealth. Our needs, technology, and conditions will change. We will adapt. We should remain humble, civil, and honest in our personal and governmental relationships. We should not harm others and not tolerate others who would harm us.
This has become bigger than partisian politics or namecalling. It is bigger than individual issues. We must confirm the rules and parameters of our government by constitution. If we conduct ourselves as free adults, and hold ourselves and our representatives accountable for our actions, then it won't matter whether the communists, radical terrorists, calamity, or the Antichrist comes. We will be as prepared as we can and we will persevere, as we always have.
Ninety percent of us agree on the above. The ten percent who create distraction, noise, and divisiveness must be ignored if we are to take the country back to a humble, honest place.
I think the ninety percent that I talk about can agree on the following:
1. Follow the Constitution, if it is not listed as a Federal responsibility then it is a State issue.
2. Live within our means. Whatever tax system is utilized, set a rate and live within it. Barring a REAL emergency that endangers the Republic, what you get is what you have to spend. The liberal/conservative stuff must be contained within that.
3. The business of America is business, not government. Govern with as few employees as possible. Payroll should be in line with real civilian payroll.
4. Simplify, simplify, simplify. Consolidate redundant agencies and responsibilities.
5. Protect Americans and our interests, but otherwise avoid foreign entanglements. Again, speak softly and carry a big stick (and don't be afraid to use it.)
6. Most important, we must hold our elected officials responsible for their actions. Carry out the previous five, and do what you say. No secret agendas.
I believe that this is government as envisioned by our founding fathers. I am not trying to be in favor or oppose any current issue. I believe that the best government is local government. The Feds should handle what is delegated to it by the US Constitution. States should handle state issues and local governments should handle local issues. That makes our individual voices louder where it counts. It keeps our State and Federal officials focused on the issues that they should be focused on. Every other political argument should be within these boundries.
I agree with some of what is being said about we seem to be making progress since we've changed Administrations (from Bush to Obama), but remember, men make mistakes, and it could get even more better or go back to worse. And to add to that, it only takes one "out of the norm" natural disaster, or one or more nuclear explosions to set off chain reactions in which we will plunge even deeper and much closer to third worldom or less and even hell.
In addition, I respect the evolution theorists, the athesists, and others that feel we will still be here 100 or even 10,000 years from now; respect that position but don't agree. I don't agree with the thinking about us (human beings) changing into something else or to something different as humans; if that were so, we'd be seeing that change right before our eyes (I'm mainly talking, respefctfully about evolution).
Just remember, for all of our success and progress in these modern times, we seem to forget that great nations have risen and fallen from the beginning of man. In view of that, we should not forget or fail to think that America should be, and is no exception. We feel, or would like to feel or think that we are something special because of our great success, prosperity, blessings, etc., and because of that thinking we also feel that nothing or no one can ever beat us, over take us, or even come against us. The Romans, Grecians, British Empire, Ancient Israel, Babylonians, Assyrians, and other great nations all thought the same but were either reduced to ashes and are no more, or were reduced to only a shadow of their former self.
America is great, and is a special nation; but not by her own power and might.
"HU"
Well Stephen you got it wrong.Reason United States was great because PEOPLE believed in it.Not just Americans but every person around world.
Well thats GONE.
After many people got screwed like us in ex-Yu,after housing bubble and economic collapse,after Bush and Iraq invasion people have lost fate and trust in US.
Let me compare United States to ....Tiger Wood.
great athlete,CLEAN image,everyone was looking in up to,investing their time and money...but one day everything changed and people found out Tigar is nothing but dirty cheater.
People turned back overnight,lost trust and fate in Tiger Wood.
And it will NEVER be the same.People will never look up to him again no matter how good his game is.
For Tiger Woods it was all those mistresses for US are all those wars.
Quote from: Midway on December 26, 2009, 10:12:38 PM
(http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/map.gif)
Texas gone....excellent.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 26, 2009, 11:19:07 PM
When it all goes down, I want to be Burgermeister of CLEVELAND!
By the way brother Heights, what do you think about the Bible Code?
http://www.bible-codes.org/why-genuine-mene-tekel-uparsin-riddles-2.htm
(This seems like a fair site)
OCKLAWAHA
Hey Ock; by the way, thanks for your insightful responses in the forum; I love it when you respond.
In all due respect I see the Bible as what it is, the literal word of God, i.e., God speaking to Mankind; so, I don't agree with the Bible codes.
God says what he means and means what he says and doesn't need to sugar coat or water anything down for us to understand.
(In all due respect)
"HU"
I'm not going to bicker with you on this. We have had this conversation ad nauseum. Your history is suspect and your constant banging of the sarcastic, name calling, partisian drum is exactly the kind of din and noise that distracts the rest of us from our most important responsibilities.
The US Constitution clearly and succinctly defines the authority and responsibility of the Federal Government. Any grade schooler can read the document and the Federalist Papers (in their entirety) and see that. No national debt does not mean no credit rating. Referring to Alexander Hamilton and his original Bank of America has no bearing on this (and I think you know that). All Governments borrow money for certain purposes and all have a "credit rating". Even those that are Constitutionally bound to a balanced budget. I even allowed for "dangers to the Republic". (But I think you know these things too.)
I said "the business of AMERICA is business". YOU said "the business of the Government is business." Check yourself. America is us. We conduct ourselves privately. The Federal Government should tend to it's business, such as national defence and national infrastructure.
The rest of your argument is just noise. I don't care if it's Al Gore, Mr. Tyson, or Jessie Ventura, if he or she is willing to honestly participate in government as written in our founding document, they have my vote. It will take 100 Senator's and 435 Representatives and nine Supreme Court justices as well as a President to restore our government to what it should be. It is obvious that our Federal government (all parties) is bloated, spending insanely and irresponsibly, and overstepping its Constitutional authority. It will take HONESTY, INTEGRITY, and PERSEVERANCE on the part of the aforementioned government officials as well as from us, the citizens. The bigger picture is how we conduct ourselves. How we expect our State and local officials to act. The same rules apply to all of us and we must stand up as a Nation and enforce these values on our government and each other. Yes, that means JUDGEMENT. That means we don't stand for the Wall Street trader who steals by falsifying records just like we don't stand for welfare frauds who steal the same way. We expect people to take care of themselves if they can and be thankful when the rest of us take care of you. Easy stuff. We just need to be responsible citizens who demand the same from our public Officials.
I think the majority of us do believe these things. I don't think it matters who got your vote for President over the last few elections. Basic values are just that. If you think the Nation we have today is what you want then good for you. I don't feel that way and I don't believe the majority of us feel that way. We want a Nation that working and productive, honest and friendly to all, humble and soft spoken, moral and firm in belief, solvent and deliberate. I look out and see many people living lives that are true to these values. I want my life to be true to these values. I want my neighbors to be true to these values. I want my city, State, and Federal Government to be true to these values as well.
You continue on your course and I will continue on mine. The truth of that course is revealed within short order.
NN thank you for your original writings. It is so much better than the reprints of articles and charts and graphs posted by other ex-members, less tedious and more self revelatory.
I find the encoded subtext of your essays somewhat troubling, however.
But that's the problem with original writings. But thanks, nonetheless.
I am not calling names StephenDare!, I am simply telling the truth.
You don't need to provide me with any "tools", I have the actual document to prove my case. Your statement:
""States Rights" is not 'strict construction' of the US Constitution. The Constitution was established to provide federal national unity to our country. This is the exact opposite of the States Rights argument as the creation of Federal Power must necessarily come at the expense of State Power.
There are so many fallacies involved with the claim that States Rights/Limited Government arguments are somehow Strict Constitutionalism that the mind fairly boggles. They are literal opposites."
is just amazing. Where did you go to school again? Just a few things:
"The Constitution of the United States of America is the supreme law of the United States. It is the foundation and source of the legal authority underlying the existence of the United States of America and the federal government of the United States. It provides the framework for the organization of the United States government and for the relationship of the federal government to the states, to citizens, and to all people within the United States.
The Constitution defines the three main branches of government: a legislature, in the form of a bicameral Congress; an executive branch led by the President; and a judicial branch headed by the Supreme Court. The Constitution specifies the powers and duties of each branch. The Constitution reserves all unenumerated powers for the respective states and the people, thereby establishing the federal system of government."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Constitution
"The constitution defines the powers of Congress; and every power not expressly delegated to that body, remains in the several state-legislatures. The sovereignty and the republican form of government of each state is guaranteed by the constitution; and the bounds of jurisdiction between the federal and respective state governments, are marked with precision. In theory, it has all the energy and freedom of the British and Roman governments, without their defects. In short, the privileges of freemen are interwoven into the feelings and habits of the Americans; liberty stands on the immoveable basis of a general distribution of property and diffusion of knowledge; but the Americans must cease to contend, to fear, and to hate, before they can realize the benefits of independence and government, or enjoy the blessings, which heaven has lavished, in rich profusion, upon this western world. - Noah Webster October 10, 1787"
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=669&chapter=206205&layout=html&Itemid=27
The U. S. Constitution is by definition a limit on the authority of the Federal Government. I am shocked that an educated man would argue differently.
As for "business", Americans are free to pursue their lives in any manner that they wish. We are not limited by "caste" or "station" and our educations and livelihoods are not mandated by our families, ranks, sex, race, or other factors, only by our abilities. The Federal Government has no Constitutional authority and no moral authority to interfere, except in matters of national emergency and the enumerated powers. Why is this so hard to understand?
As for your "predictions", I don't remember arguing with you about the economy. Your criminalization of Blackwater and other civilian organizations was unfounded, as was your criminal accusations against U. S. Military troops. Blackwater employees have not been convicted of any crimes. I also recall bemoaning the fact that the U. S. Military was forced to use civilian contractors at all, and have consistently stated that the military should be staffed to fulfill ALL of its missions, including supply and logistics. As for President Obama, there was never any doubt that he would win the election, was there? I know I never said he wouldn't. It was a race between Hillary and him from the beginning. Outcome of the war in the Middle East...do you mean the current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan? Aren't we still in both countries?
StephenDare!, when you advocate communist policies, then people will think you are a communist. You have asked your little "communist test" several times on this forum and argued in support of its points. I think you call yourself a "former Reagan Republican" but your actions speak louder than your words. I don't recall calling you a terrorist sympathiser. I don't think you are a bad person, I just think that you have found an area you feel comfortable arguing about.
As for the truth being revealed, yep, I'm used to it. Honorable persons are successful and respected. I am happy to report that all of those persons that I alluded to in my earlier post who lived the values that I believe in are successful and highly respected across the board. Again, actions speak louder than words. Our lives and how we have lived them say much more about us than a few words typed in the dark.
Update---Gotta add a couple of things...as for your manhood, I simply pointed out that you were criticizing those who took on the responsibility of fighting for what they believed in and supporting their country. They risked and are risking their LIVES over a principal that you have spent many hours sitting in a coffee shop talking about or typing about. If that challenges your manhood...sorry.
But, I do appreciate your optimism on this thread. It is sorely needed and I appreciate the reminder of the positive future as well.
Quote from: Midway on December 27, 2009, 03:17:09 PM
NN thank you for your original writings. It is so much better than the reprints of articles and charts and graphs posted by other ex-members, less tedious and more self revelatory.
I find the encoded subtext of your essays somewhat troubling, however.
But that's the problem with original writings. But thanks, nonetheless.
Once again, I didn't "encode" anything. I thought I said things plainly and succinctly. If you see some secret psychological code then you are doing what you do best....making s&%t up. If you have a valid argument, make it. Otherwise, you are just one of the 10%.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 27, 2009, 12:31:41 PM
Quote from: Johnny on December 27, 2009, 10:47:17 AM
Quote from: Bostech on December 27, 2009, 04:13:45 AM
"There will be time where people will think they know everything,but they will know nothing".
The irony
So you've been talking to some of our resident atheists and deists huh?
OCKLAWAHA
Either you quoted the wrong comment or you misunderstood my post....
Allright, tell me where I am wrong. Is HU off the mark when he points out the dangerous place that our nation resides? Are you happy with the status quo? If not, what changes, individual, local, state, and federal are needed in your opinion?
NN, since the assertion that 90% of the U.S. population is in agreement with your core beliefs, and that assertion is central to your argument, please offer some citation in support of your assertion.
You first. Where am I wrong? Is HU off the mark when he points out the dangerous place that our nation resides? Are you happy with the status quo? If not, what changes, individual, local, state, and federal are needed in your opinion?
Quote from: Johnny on December 27, 2009, 05:26:36 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 27, 2009, 12:31:41 PM
Quote from: Johnny on December 27, 2009, 10:47:17 AM
Quote from: Bostech on December 27, 2009, 04:13:45 AM
"There will be time where people will think they know everything,but they will know nothing".
The irony
So you've been talking to some of our resident atheists and deists huh?
OCKLAWAHA
Either you quoted the wrong comment or you misunderstood my post....
No Johnny, just being my smart-ass self! OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: heights unknown on December 27, 2009, 02:15:36 PM
Hey Ock; by the way, thanks for your insightful responses in the forum; I love it when you respond.
In all due respect I see the Bible as what it is, the literal word of God, i.e., God speaking to Mankind; so, I don't agree with the Bible codes.
God says what he means and means what he says and doesn't need to sugar coat or water anything down for us to understand.
(In all due respect)
"HU"
Thanks brother Heights, likewise I really enjoy your caution to the wind, upfront Christian posts, and respect your views.
I think you'd find we're not all that far apart in our base beliefs, in fact I wonder how many would be willing to post what (if any) religious belief/s they were brought up in, or have converted to? No one has to do this, but it would be VERY INTERESTING from a studied viewpoint. I'll start by telling everyone, I am a PK! Yeah, bet y'all never guessed that one was coming. I grew up in the SW (Ortega) side of town and in what were then little country Baptist, and Methodist Churches. My father was also (when not playing Navy Exchange Commander) a former big band musician who then donated his free time to the churches as minister of music. Yukon, Immanuel, FBC Orange Park, FUMC Orange Park, and I think a Nazarene Church down that way long, long, ago. I became a hippie, ended up in the Vietnam Stew, got disabled, married a Colombian Franciscan Nun, and attended the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. Now sort of "church hopping/hunting in WGV".
As for the Bible Code, or Word, I believe the Word is Divine, and inspired, I also believe the "code" is a modern revelation that is not fully understood yet, not fully developed, nor is it's intent or value been realized. We know the code has predicted several major world events down to the day, time, place, etc... I have also heard we are ALL IN IT, including name, place of birth, some basics and date of death! (I haven't gone there!) Mossad, the Israeli Intelligence Agency is reportedly using the code now, and I have heard will issue a letter admitting to such (Interesting?). The first Gulf War missile attacks and the assassination of the Prime Minister were encoded down to the second. Yet there are codes talking of World War in the same conflict with a disclaimer "Will you change it!" The stuff is simply unreal. Before anyone goes off on this, let me say so far I haven't used any Christian Sources, staying with the Israeli University's and Government studies, since if the code is real, they either convert or lose!OCKLAWAHA
Hmm, sounds like exciting stuff Ock; and, I respect your views and excitement about the codes. This I do know...everything that happens on the planet is contingent of the way mankind acts and our behavior and choices that we (mankind) make. We are the guardians and overseers of this planet; the animals, and everything else is subservient to us and what we do, so, it is paramount that mankind makes the right choices; if we don't, the planet, along with ourselves as a product of our wrong choices, suffers.
"HU"
Ok;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
There are a few things of special note on this page:
1. The polls taken of Fox News viewers are skewed as expected.
2. The higher the education, the more skewed towards evolution.
Now, I am establishing a rough equivalency between the obviously religious fundamentalist views that are apparently at the core of this thread and the results of the polling at the attached link, because it is the closest representation that I can easily find representative polling on. If you have other data, please feel free to present it.
Midway, your usual boogeymen of Fox News and religion have nothing to do with what we were discussing. Try to focus on the question.
Where am I wrong? Is HU off the mark when he points out the dangerous place that our nation resides? Are you happy with the status quo? If not, what changes, individual, local, state, and federal are needed in your opinion?
Quote from: Midway on December 28, 2009, 09:23:30 AM
Ok;
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
There are a few things of special note on this page:
1. The polls taken of Fox News viewers are skewed as expected.
2. The higher the education, the more skewed towards evolution.
Now, I am establishing a rough equivalency between the obviously religious fundamentalist views that are apparently at the core of this thread and the results of the polling at the attached link, because it is the closest representation that I can easily find representative polling on. If you have other data, please feel free to present it.
Midway; I respect all views whether Godly, religious, Christian, Atheistic, Agnostic, satanistic, whatever I welcome them and respect them, and would hope that my views are respected as well regardless of whether we disagree or agree. That's the beauty of these forums and freedom of speech; we list and/or discuss our beliefs, views, opinions but don't have to agree, but SHOULD respect others views, opinions and beliefs.
"HU"
P.S. - and yes I am a Born Again Christian; not religious but Godly (I have my faults but whose perfect? Certainly not me)...however, I respect everything you say and will read, view, and receive it with an open mind and will not disrespect your views or you while disagreeing. - "HU"
Quote from: stephendare on December 28, 2009, 04:34:24 PM
The supremacy of the federal government and the limitation of states rights is the foundation of the American Constitution,
Huh?
So the 10th Amendment is just for show?
...of course, thanks to the panty bomber, the 4th is about to be just for show too. ...but I digress.
HU; I have no particular disagreement with you.
You never said that 90% of the people in America agree with your views. You never said that 10% do.
That's fine. BTW, if you have not seen this program, it is probably something you would enjoy:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
NN: don't build your arguments upon the inadequate foundation of a non existent fact. How about maybe 35% of the people agree with you? Would that alter the persuasive elements of your argument?
I am not putting forth any bogeymen, just look at the polls I cited and draw your own conclusions.
Quote from: Midway on December 28, 2009, 07:15:30 PM
HU; I have no particular disagreement with you.
You never said that 90% of the people in America agree with your views. You never said that 10% do.
That's fine. BTW, if you have not seen this program, it is probably something you would enjoy:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/
NN: don't build your arguments upon the inadequate foundation of a non existent fact. How about maybe 35% of the people agree with you? Would that alter the persuasive elements of your argument?
I am not putting forth any bogeymen, just look at the polls I cited and draw your own conclusions.
Thanks Midway; I try to never put out numbers because I don't know who agrees and who doesn't; just hope that all respect my views whether they agree or not.
"HU"
Heights, there is an excellent 2 books, by Michael Drosnin, a Jewish Atheist writer for the New York Times. They hit the NYT bestseller list in record time. Book one is simply called "The Bible Code" and book two is "The Bible Code II, The Countdown." Michael didn't know what to think when we wrote the first volume, but it's done with the top notch Israeli research university, government, and other world mathematicians. In book II he seems to be more Deist then Atheist... Still unwilling to surrender to what he has learned. He also puts the graphics of the Hebrew text of the Torah, where these codes are found, so you can see the rocket, towers etc... Many of the codes also appear in the plain text with some relationship to whatever the codex text says.
On Google Books At:
http://books.google.com/books?id=p4QtRzOJ0z0C&dq=The+Bible+Code+review&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=LVs5S9SID9SPtgfwvdmACQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=The%20Bible%20Code%20review&f=false
Quote
Drosnin describes an alleged "Bible code", in which messages are encoded in the Hebrew bible. The messages are purported to be hidden in the Torah, and can be deciphered by placing the letters of various Torah passages at equal intervals in a text that has been formatted to fit inside a graph.
Drosnin suggests that the Code was written by extraterrestrial life (which he claims also brought the DNA of the human genetic code to Earth). Drosnin elaborates on this theory in The Bible Code II, suggesting that the alien who brought the code left the key to the code in a steel obelisk. Drosnin attempted to find this obelisk, which he believes is buried near the Dead Sea.
Drosnin's book is based on the technique described in the paper "Equidistant Letter Sequences in the Book of Genesis" by Professor Eliyahu Rips of the Hebrew University in Israel with Doron Witztum and Yoav Rosenberg. The Bible Code makes numerous predictions and post-diction, such as the coming (not having come to pass) of the apocalypse in 2006, and "proof" that Lee Harvey Oswald was destined to assassinate John F. Kennedy.
A new book that I have not read yet, and can't wait to see it is: Quote
Bible Code Bombshell: Compelling Evidence that God Authored the Bible by R. Edwin Sherman
Bombshell examines two massive clusters of codes in the Hebrew Old Testament. One cluster consists of dozens of lengthy codes about the terrorist attacks and the Iraq war. The other cluster is full of long, controversial codes about Christ found in Isaiah 53, a passage often cited as an Old Testament prophecy of the crucifixion. One of the world's leading experts on Bible codes, R. Edwin Sherman is the founder of the Isaac Newton Bible Code Research Society. Sherman is a nationally known consulting mathematician and has advised numerous large financial institutions, Fortune 500 companies and government agencies. He holds an M.A. in mathematics from the University of California at San Diego and is deeply committed to the objective examination of the phenomenon of Bible codes, apart from the advocacy of any particular religious viewpoint.
Anyone with an interest in what is coming, if your for it or against it, you should read these books.OCKLAWAHA
We are now seeing a combination of 'economics' and 'social science'.
Back to the future-who recalls the "Club of Rome" insights decades ago-the "limits to growth".
The lmits to growth are behind most headlines.
StephenDare!, I am sure we could both post previous post made by us and rehash if you wish. I will stand by my opinions. Most who post here are familiar with both of our positions, and our styles of debate. I would suggest for the sake of brevity and so as not to bore others or veer to far from the thread that we stick to the point here.
Please forgive me while I continue to ignore your habit of directing others what to write. I'll argue my points as I see fit, if you don't mind.
You appear to be attempting to apply the "necessary and proper" clause found in Article 1, Section 8 to the entire Federal Government. This is not the case. In context, the clause empowers "Congress" to do what is "necessary and proper" in carrying out the "foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution...". That means that the clause applies only to the enumerated powers vested in the Federal Government by the Constitution. It does NOT imply any supremacy of power or abridgement of any powers NOT enumerated to the Federal Government. Heck, let's just print ALL of Article 1 and see it in context:
Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
I think Hamilton did a good job of arguing for the "necessary and proper" clause as well as the "supremecy" clause in "The Federalist 33". Without going on and on, essentially he explains that it is necessary that the Federal Government have the unfettered power to exercise those powers vested in it by the Constitution and that supremacy of Federal law within the bounds of that Constitution was necessary to prevent individual States from usurping those powers. In the context of the day, when Federalists such as Madison and Hamilton were arguing for ratification of the new Constitution, they were explaining the merits of this new Constitution over the Articles while putting at ease the fears of a people and States that had suffered the indignities of the recent British rule. NONE of this had any bearing on the clearly enumerated role of the Federal Government and the CLEARLY stated fact that ALL power not vested in the Federal Government rests with the States. The 10th Amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The U S Constitution establishes what Congress CAN do...Article 1, Section 8
It establishes what Congress CANNOT do.......................Article 1, Section 9
It establishes what States CANNOT do..........................Article 1, Section 10
It establishes what Presidents CAN do...........................Article 2, Section 2
It establishes the Judicial Branch..................................Article 3, Section 1
It establishes the framework of the Federal Government and what its powers are, the relationship of the Federal Government and individual States governments, and the relationship of the individual States with each other.
StephenDare! (and others), if you keep in mind the time that this was occurring and the fears of the population against any "central" government, then this is not hard to understand. The "Federalist" articles, written by Hamilton, Madison, and Jay, were Federalist arguments for ratification of the new Constitution to replace the Articles of Confederation. These articles were published and have been used by the Supreme Court to understand the reasoning of the day written by men acknowledged to be the predominantly involved in authoring the Constitution. While it certainly created a stronger central government that had the power of taxation and limiting certain activities of the States (printing money, etc.), it also clearly defined the roles of those governments. This is why I stated a COMPLETE reading of ALL 85 articles. Without trying to sound condescending, this is pretty much U S Constitution 101 and is widely accepted (at least at the schools and University I went to). I do realize that the 10th amendment is much derided and has been weakened by previous courts, but (much like the 2nd) it is deafeningly clear and supported by the writings of the founding fathers so erosion of the principle is pretty difficult. I have not attended law school and I am not an attorney, but I am a citizen and I can read.
Now, and this answers you as well Midway, all of this is not Germain to my core argument of a sea change in how we the people operate our government, not just the Federal, but State and local as well. Midway, while I refer to my Christian values these terms are universal and not religious. Your referenced polls about creation science are on a completely different subject than what I am talking about.
Earlier I mentioned these points to StephenDare!:
1. Follow the Constitution, if it is not listed as a Federal responsibility then it is a State issue. Probably wouldn't get 90% on this one. But I believe a majority of Americans would agree that the Feds are trying to do too much and trying to control too much of our lives. I know that you disagree StephenDare!, but that is because you are a communist :D
2. Live within our means. Whatever tax system is utilized, set a rate and live within it. Barring a REAL emergency that endangers the Republic, what you get is what you have to spend. The liberal/conservative stuff must be contained within that. I think 90% is pretty easy here. StephenDare!'s assertion that we need a $14 TRILLION dollar debt so that we have a "credit rating" is....just...dumb...ill conceived.
3. The business of America is business, not government. Govern with as few employees as possible. Payroll should be in line with real civilian payroll. StephenDare! is right on this one. I mistated what I wanted to say. I was trying to say that ALL of our governments should operate as leanly as possible, and allow the citizens of this country to pursue happiness in their own way with as little government interference as possible. I think that is a 90%er.
4. Simplify, simplify, simplify. Consolidate redundant agencies and responsibilities. Even StephenDare! and AlGore! are with me on this one! Don't you secretly think that StephenDare! and AlGore! are probably a lot alike?
5. Protect Americans and our interests, but otherwise avoid foreign entanglements. Again, speak softly and carry a big stick (and don't be afraid to use it.) Easy 90%. General principle, not a referendum of our current war.
6. Most important, we must hold our elected officials responsible for their actions. Carry out the previous five, and do what you say. No secret agendas. Also an easy one. The trouble is, who do we trust? The current President promised change and openness and was widely accepted. We will leave opinions of his performance out of this, but I think we can all agree that this is what we want, and we want a valid way of holding our government representatives responsible.
These are secular principles that I think rise above the Democrat/Republican or Conservative/Liberal flack. If you don't think 90% of Americans would agree with this, well OK. We are just exchanging ideas anyway. Anyway, that's what I think. Throw the rocks now.
I'll have to check those two books out Ock; thanks.
"HU"
Quote from: heights unknown on December 28, 2009, 11:23:10 PM
I'll have to check those two books out Ock; thanks.
"HU"
Heights, I just tried the newer one The Bible Code Bombshell and discovered it and a host of others are on Google Books. Man, I'm already on PG 119! LOL!
If you use the Google book link I posted, just above the book, you'll see a "Search Google Books" window. Just post the name The Bible Code Bombshell, and watch that site light up with new books. I didn't notice if the New Testament Codes are in there too, but I'm hearing they are also being discovered, and more mind blowing, apparently in all of the standard language versions of the Bible. Wow. I wish our friend Bostech would read these works and tell us what his opinion is, I'd like to know if it means anything to him.
Enjoy HU, as the railroaders say, "Hold em in the Frog Brother!" (meaning within the complex criss-crossing rails of a switch - WITHOUT a derailment)OCKLAWAHA
Again,what about me?
Did you know your guy who predicted death of Rabin also predicted nuclear war in 2006?
Well we did get much bigger explosion....housing bubble burst.
Rest of findings doesnt make any sense to anyone,compilations of words to make it sound like there is something there.Unless we get something specific you cant take it serious.
Now if Bible is right about Jesus then that means Jews are wrong and Muslims partially wrong.
Reality,both Bible and Quran are written by PEOPLE.There might be mostly Gods words but its written by people after all.
So question is how accurately they wrote it and whether they changed anything in process.
Did some "add" something in it?
And what about all those writing,many are hard to understand or have multiple meaning or simple don't really tell you clearly its meaning.
So now we are left with analyzing and deciding what it means.
But the real question is : Are Jews and Muslims allowed to eat pepperoni pizza?
Quote from: Bostech on December 29, 2009, 01:48:50 AM
Again,what about me?
Did you know your guy who predicted death of Rabin also predicted nuclear war in 2006?
Well we did get much bigger explosion....housing bubble burst.
Rest of findings doesnt make any sense to anyone,compilations of words to make it sound like there is something there.Unless we get something specific you cant take it serious.
Now if Bible is right about Jesus then that means Jews are wrong and Muslims partially wrong.
Reality,both Bible and Quran are written by PEOPLE.There might be mostly Gods words but its written by people after all.
So question is how accurately they wrote it and whether they changed anything in process.
Did some "add" something in it?
And what about all those writing,many are hard to understand or have multiple meaning or simple don't really tell you clearly its meaning.
So now we are left with analyzing and deciding what it means.
But the real question is : Are Jews and Muslims allowed to eat pepperoni pizza?
Important point to remember though about the Bible or anything else that's written: God calls certain people to do things for him, i.e., Prophet, Ministers, Preachers, Teachers, or anything else that might or might not coincide with that person's talent(s). It's one thing for a human to write something and put it out...you can usually bank that it's not really the paper that it's written on; but if it's written with God himself overseeing, inspiring, and guiding the writing of the book, manuscript, psalm, or whatever it may be, you can bank on it being 100% perfect because God is perfect and, he doesn't lie. God calls men and women to do things for him because he wants to maintain contact and communication with his children (men, women and some children on earth), he loves us very very much, more than any of us can imagine, and, the majority of the people on earth probably wouldn't listen to him (God) anyway even if he appeared in front of them, so he uses people, people that really love and care for him, to do his work and other things like writing the Bible. Yes, the Bible was written by Men, but it was written by Men who were called, inspired, and guided by God in the writing of the scriptures...not just any human being.
"HU"
Quote from: stephendare on December 29, 2009, 11:56:12 AM
Heights, of course you believe all of that. And Bostech clearly believes in prophets or something.
And I intend no disrespect to your faith in the truth of these things. But I don't think this doomsday business is justified either from a rationalist or a faith based point of view.
But these beliefs are simply that. Beliefs.
There is no destiny for Mankind except the one that we create for ourselves. Even if you believe in the odder versions of Evangelicalism, you have to agree that the one rock solid principle upon which the entire belief system is based is the principle of Free Will. Without it we are simply robots, and the creator is just a garden variety child with a deep sadistic streak.
And Free Will, by definition has to extend to the idea that we are capable of creating our own outcomes, or what is it after all?
Even Christ could have turned aside from the bitter cup. If there wasnt a possibility that he could have done so, then the story of lucifer tempting Christ would be an unecessary joke.
I do not have much use for these apocalypses or the constant alarmbell of the supposed 'end times'
I know that there has always been a tribe amongst us that has fervently believed in these phantasms, in fact the Northeast of the United States was colonized by an early group of people who truly expected the "Rapture" to happen in 1725, and abandoned homes and belongings to gather (for a full year as it turned out) on the high ground so as to be the first to see Gabriel Blow his horn and the return of the Messiah.
But I think this is all just nonsense. Interesting nonsense of course, even engrossing.
But no more meaningful than the kids who learn Elvish from Tolkien novels, or can argue the finer points of the history of Hobbiton.
We do have a Destiny, I think. It is in the stars, and under the oceans and in the uncharted realms of a multidimensional reality whose borders have not even been discerned by our primitive stages of evolution.
This country is blessed because of the remarkable energy produced by its multiple cultures and peoples and the great intellectual dynamism that comes about when ideas come into conflict.
This is the heritage of the West, and the driving force behind its last 500 years of astonishing advances and development.
Will America be as it was? Yes, and fervently No.
I think that the US has boxed itself into a neat little corner through its post industrial development and monetary policy. It has no option except to expand again---the same way that it has when faced with similar situations throughout its history.
I think we will end up being continental. And I think that this will be not only in our own interest, but also in the interests of the rest of the world. They need our energy and optimism, as much as they hate our hegemony and our arrogance.
Will there be a whole lot more people speaking spanish living under the American Flag? yes.
But there will also be a whole lot more people speaking Quebecois French I think and Vancouverite Mandarin, and Toronto accented Hindi and Urdu.
And when we make the move to mining operations on Mars and the Lunar Ilmenite colonies.....who knows?
No doomsday here Stephen, because you're right, I really don't know, but God knows, and I know what he says in his word (Bible). What I am listing is in fact my beliefs, and my opinions based on my beliefs, which could be off (I could misinterpret what God is saying), I'm only human (LOL). But one thing I know I'm right about; one day we all will see and know, and, one day soon, in the not too distant future, some of us will be right, and some of us wrong relative to what we are discussing. We believe only what we want to believe and most of us not necessarily what we seek. I used to think I believed (in God, etc.) but really didn't. When I asked him to reveal himself to me, he did. That's the beauty of the choice mechanism within us that creator put into us, we don't have to believe in a Creator or worship him; but know this, nothing on this earth or the universe came from nothing. If we continue on believing there is no God, or that God is something else other than what he really is, then in our human heart and spirit we will accept that; seek the Living God and you will find him and will see he is full of surprises (and I'm not trying to convert you Stephen). Respect all that you say Stephen, and don't agree or disagree because that's what you think or believe, and it's probably the same with you towards me and I also respect that. But again, we soon shall see.
"HU"
StephenDare! Again, as usual, you are so focused on hearing yourself you do not hear others. You and Midway have misconstrued the entire debate. I have never argued for supremacy of state's rights, only respecting what powers are reserved for the states. It always amuses me when you lecture and tell me to study something until I see it your way. I have a pretty fair formal education in this area and a good bit of professional education here as well. By necessity, I am pretty familiar with the Constitution. I have a firm confidence in my knowledge of our governments founding and its founding documents. I have been subjected to testing and questioning by peers and educators. I have put my knowledge and expertise into actual practice for many years. Now I will be the first to admit that my views do not always coincide with those of the Federal Courts, but I will identify what is my opinion versus what is fact. You would be well served doing the same.
The core of the thread is that our country has abandoned certain core principles that made us a better and more stable nation. I have listed what I think are some of those principles. I have explained why I believe this is true personally which involves some of my own faith based values. Your attacks on key phrases and ideas reveal a counter interest that does not refute the core argument of better government, but either an effort to disrupt the pursuit of a better nation or just a need to argue "points" on a forum and appease your own self image of accomplishments and knowledge. Now if you have an alternative, throw it our there. Which principles do YOU want the Federal Government to adopt? What core values does this government hold that make you argue against my points? I think the answer is obvious to most, you want just the opposite. You want a larger government unrestrained by "rules" or "amendments". You want no restrictions on Federal power hence the misrepresentation of the "proper and necessary" clause. Like many who believe as you do, you seem to feel some need to cloak these beliefs in other terms and not just say straight out what you want. I have read and understand the founding documents StephenDare!, and not just sitting at a computer by myself reinforcing my own beliefs as I went.
As for what the majority thinks, well I still think that most folks by far would agree with the points that I raised. I don't think that most Americans by far are satisfied with the course our country has taken in many areas. While we have made much progress in some cases, we have digressed in many more. How many Americans do you think would support YOUR views on governance and civil conduct? I guess this is why we have these little talks.
Good stuff guys, good stuff, how about some good ol fashioned Jacksonville posts. I can't handle the heavy stuff, sort of like 70s shag carpet.
Good morning all;
Stephendare, Bostech and SportMotor, please check your mail boxes; I left an email in there for all of you.
Thanks.
"HU"
Why am I getting mail?
I got nothing to do with this,except a joke.
Interesting tidbits of information. Of course none of them have anything to do with the topic. What does our call for a more principle grounded and efficient nation have do with the lecture that you posted? Do you really believe that just calling my points "gibberish" and then invoking slavery and women's rights is a valid method of debate? Really? You are rihgt when you say that you don't know what I am talking about. On that we agree.
So you really support a $14 TRILLION dollar national debt? Because the country needs a CREDIT RATING? Really?
You believe that the current rates of high school drop outs, teen pregnancies, murders of young men, and college education are good? You think that the number of single parent families is good for America? Your think that more Americans feel safer in their homes now than in the past? You are confident that the removal of "religion" from all public venues such as Nativity Scenes or bible verses is good for America? You believe that our Federal government is "on the right track" and it respects the individual rights of the people? You think that our Federal, State, and local governments are wise caretakers of our tax dollars and their judgement in their use is wise and careful? I could go on and on, but we are boring the other posters here.
This is not "alarmist". This is common sense. Something that our politicians, judges, and apparently many of our citizens lost long ago. I think it is time for the majority to speak up again and restore that common sence.
I love it; America, though it's falling, at its best!
Good old fashioned agreeing to disagree; nothing wrong with that.
Freedom of speech has always been a good, healthy thing in this country; and the whole nation will go down the tubes exercising that right.
God...(did I say that?), gotta love this country; love all of you, and always will love America.
Whatever happens happens.
"HU"
Quote from: Bostech on December 30, 2009, 01:15:31 PM
Why am I getting mail?
I got nothing to do with this,except a joke.
Grease stains, no problem. Grass stains, no problem. No harm done. If you've got amnesia, then I have it too. So what the heck, we both need to be on medication to get rid of our little alhzeimers problem. Nothing wrong with that.
"HU"
NN. you supported the policies which led to the 14 trillion dollar debt. I opposed them. Really? If you look at the table below, you will see that the National Debt is expected to DOUBLE during President Obama's term. Remember this is after President Bush's 80% increase in the public debt during his two terms. This is a lot more than just war spending. How can you justify this, Republican or Democrat?
Year Gross Debt in Billions [10] as % of GDP
1910 2.6 n/a
1920 25.9 n/a
1930 16.2 n/a
1940 43.0 52.4
1950 257.4 94.1
1960 290.5 56.1
1970 380.9 37.6
1980 909.0 33.3
1990 3,206.3 55.9
2000 5,628.7 58.0
2001 5,769.9 57.4
2002 6,198.4 59.7
2003 6,760.0 62.6
2004 7,354.7 63.9
2005 7,905.3 64.6
2006 8,451.4 65.0
2007 8,950.7 65.6
2008 9,985.8 70.2
2009 (est.) 12,867.5 90.4
2010 (est.) 14,456.3 98.1
2011 (est.) 15,673.9 101.0
2012 (est.) 16,565.7 100.6
2013 (est.) 17,440.2 99.7
2014 (est.) 18,350.0 99.8
You called me a bunch of names when I pointed this out to you a few years ago. I don't remember calling you any names. I do find it amusing that YOU of all people feign offense from being called a name. You are the most prolific name caller on this site. You generalize people into bogus categories based on their political beliefs or even their religious or other personal beliefs.
Your chicks have all come home to roost, and you own them. The costs of the war, the costs of deregulation in the name of 'capitalism and freedom' when it was really in the cause of swindling and greed, The tax cuts for the wealthy that were supposed to produce economic engines of growth but instead produced nothing but bailouts and the importation of industry abroad. You hate the unions and watched their power and wages get cut across the board to empower 'the men of industry' without ever once thinking it was killing the middle class in this country, and therefore all of the consumer spending. My? chicks? Really? Aren't you the same guy who two weeks ago was chastising me for being a union member and being greedy? Do you even think about what you are writing?
The pricetag for the policies you supported finally came due. Thats not my fault man. Again, you are categorizing people. I opposed several policies of the Bush administration, almost always because of financial and constitutional concerns. I oppose many of the Obama administrations policies for the same reasons. Which of those policies that will DOUBLE the national debt in the next three years do you oppose?
On the subject of morality, well....
I think we are becoming a more moral nation. I hope that we continue to be become even more moral than we presently are.
I hope we feed all our hungry, provide care to all of our sick. I hope we become once again that shining City on the Hill that we once were before the jackals dragged the body politic down.
I hope that we evolve our social policy and education to the point that an unwanted pregnancy is so rare that it is shocking, I hope that we stop poisoning our own environment, I hope that we find a way to live in an international peace which deals swiftly and justly based on laws rather than hatreds. Yeah, we all hhope for these things. But what are we doing[ to bring them about? That, StephenDare!, is the point of this thread./i]
But I think we are getting there. I don't think we are. I suppose the we will see what changes occur over the next few years.
This is apparently where we differ. Oh, we differ on MUCH more than just this.
I think the future is amazing, beautiful and bright. And you are basing this on...what? Your past performance? The spectacular successes of the Obama administration over the last year?
You apparently don't. I'm not sure how you have missed my feelings in this area. I agree with HU that our country needs to find it's center again. It is the responsibiity of the citizens to be responsible and to hold our leaders accountable. If we do that, the future is bright. If not, then I fear for the future of our country.
Not Now - Good info, I find the following as most interesting:
Quote1940 43.0 52.4
1950 257.4 94.1
Quote1980 909.0 33.3
1990 3,206.3 55.9
To see what WWII did to our spending. Something they never teach you in 8th grade (for me at least STJR) in American History. Nor that Reagan spent our way into the 90s, creating the similar banking issues with the Resolution Trust Corp.
Well we can't continue to spend, that is for sure, or maybe we can and then we can use the paper dollars as wallpaper.
Now that we've looked at the theological, biblical, and religious side of what could or might happen to America (and I understand some or most disagree with that side of the coin), let's take a look at what futurologists, secularists, and others that don't believe that America will end from "the hand of God" so to speak. I myself believe our end will be supernatural, but let's take a close look at what others are saying. Before we do, it is interesting that despite that huge problems the country is now encountering, many still think and firmly believe America has at least 50 to 100 years or more on the books before peetering out. Here are the links:
http://www.slate.com/id/2223962/
http://www.slate.com/id/2224425/
http://www.slate.com/id/2223210/landing/1
Enjoy.
"HU"
Quote from: stephendare on December 31, 2009, 04:00:27 PM
As already discussed elsewhere on this site, the majority of abortions are performed on self described fundamentalist or evangelical women. These poor girls, unfortunately are also the ones most likely to be insulated from any real sex education and the numbers bear out the harmful side effects. If we can convince the evangelicals to stop shaming their daughters into abortions, we might be able to make a real dent into this practice.
Can you share the thread that this was discussed? I assume there is something backing up these claims within the thread? You know, just b/c they identify as a certain religion, certainly doesn't qualify as evangelical women.
NN, YOu supported the massive trillion dollar tax cuts of the bush administration at the same time that you supported simultaneous, unprovoked wars in the middle east and the hiring of mercs at 6 times the rate we were spending on our own soldiers. Are you trying to distance yourself from all that now? It is an interesting contrast, how could I support the $1.3 TRILLION dollar tax cut and then argue against the $1 TRILLION dollar health bill? Easy answer...tax cuts LEAVE the money where it was originally made, with the businessman. There it will be reinvested in proven, successful enterprises.
The wars in the Middle East were NOT unprovoked, to flatly state differently is more than just disingenuous.
I have consistently argued against the use of private companies in war zones. I have consistently argued that these logistics, protective services, and intelligence services should be taken on by military personnel. However, if the only personnel that are trained and available to protect the American are private contractors, then hire the private contractors until trained and competent soldiers can be stood up. I defended these companies against unproven, unwarranted atacks by reactionary demigogs though.
How do you justify the expected doubling of the debt by this administration? Are you just going with "Bush did it"? I thought you were opposed to throwing money at the failed financial institutions and car manufacturers?
And I was not chastising you for being a union member. I actually congratulate you for it. I simply wish that you thought that other workers should have the same rights to unionize for the same reasons and ultimate benefit as yourself. "But wasnt your private insurance guaranteed because your union fraternal order, negotiated enough of the public taxpayer money to be able to afford it? "
"And when you chunk in your line of work (sponsored by The State,) your retirement pension (not even included in the communist manifesto but included in Roosevelts second bill of rights) and your fraternal police order with its Labor Union Method of collective bargaining, you really are redder than most. "
You have criticised the FOP on numerous occaisions. You are making up (again) that I oppose any rights to unionize. But then, you make up a lot of this stuff, don't you?
And I do think we are moving towards curing the conditions that I described.
Especially the unwanted pregnancies part.
We are finally chunking these stupid abstinence only programs, and seeing the benefits. Your source for this statement?
As already discussed elsewhere on this site, the majority of abortions are performed on self described fundamentalist or evangelical women. These poor girls, unfortunately are also the ones most likely to be insulated from any real sex education and the numbers bear out the harmful side effects. If we can convince the evangelicals to stop shaming their daughters into abortions, we might be able to make a real dent into this practice. Again, your source? Are you making things up again? Your hatred of religion is coming through again, but...it does fit in with your political philosophy, doesn't it?
Crime is in a generational cycle (see Strauss and Howe) and it is on the downswing for the realigning generational constellation. Strauss and Howe did not say that. Their theory of recurring generational behaviors does not account for racial or international disparity.
If we can get through the next few dark years (Howe and Strauss predict another 6 years of turbulence) on the other end of it we should emerge with a dynamically improved world. So you are extrapolating the generational theories of Strauss and Howe to predict "an improved world"? Don't you think that you should ask them if that's what they would gleen from their work?
According to their formulations, there were two possible generational outcomes as we passed through this crisis. A turn to fascism and chaos or a pulling together spontaneously of the civic order and another golden age like the 50s. I think we passed the crucible when we turned away from Bush Era governmental theories personally, although really who can tell? Wow! I am shocked that it is....BUSH'S FAULT! I am impressed that you feel confident enough to predict the future StephenDare!, I don't think the author's that you source would be so confident.
I think Americans are about to go through great sufferings and misery as a result of the financial fallout of the past 6 years, and I think the shape of our country is going to change geographically. There is a tough one, yep, I agree. I would be interested in hearing what "geographic" changes in our country you would predict, seriously.
But I also believe that there is an essential goodness to our nation and that we have a tendency to pull together and solve our problems. There is a can do attitude to our people and our heritage that has yet to fail us, and if I have faith in anything, I have faith in that tendency of our country to pull off a last minute hat trick. We agree on this point, we do not agree on what our Federal, State, and local governments role is in this process.
The fact that all the seeds of our recovery and the salvation of our species have already been planted gives me additional reason for optimism. That sounds suspiciously like faith. You better be careful or you will get thrown out of the Commie Club! :)
Quote from: NotNow on December 31, 2009, 12:11:54 AM
Year Gross Debt in Billions [10] as % of GDP
...
2001 5,769.9 57.4
2002 6,198.4 59.7
2003 6,760.0 62.6
2004 7,354.7 63.9
2005 7,905.3 64.6
2006 8,451.4 65.0
2007 8,950.7 65.6
2008 9,985.8 70.2
2009 (est.) 12,867.5 90.4
2010 (est.) 14,456.3 98.1
2011 (est.) 15,673.9 101.0
2012 (est.) 16,565.7 100.6
2013 (est.) 17,440.2 99.7
2014 (est.) 18,350.0 99.8
I didn't realize that Bush had increased our Debt as a percentage of GDP by 40%. Obama is only predicted to increase it by 9.4%.
Interesting simplification in order to advance a political party. Some of you guys would fit right in in D.C. Can ANYONE agree that we can not continue down this financial road, despite our political bent or what party is in control of congress or the executive? Or do we just continue to shout BUSH! OBAMA! at each other as our country falls down around us? For Christ's sake for a bunch of self described "intellectuals" the lack of clarity here is astounding sometimes.
98%?
Can we say US will bankrupt in 2010?
Quote from: NotNow on December 31, 2009, 07:40:17 PM
Interesting simplification in order to advance a political party. Some of you guys would fit right in in D.C. Can ANYONE agree that we can not continue down this financial road, despite our political bent or what party is in control of congress or the executive? Or do we just continue to shout BUSH! OBAMA! at each other as our country falls down around us? For Christ's sake for a bunch of self described "intellectuals" the lack of clarity here is astounding sometimes.
Couple of things I haven't heard anyone mention; We are in debt to China big time. If China ever calls in those loans, we're screwed. Many other nations have different types of investments within our financial and stock markets which assists in propping up our dollar and other arms of our financial and banking system; if they ever withdraw those investments, we're screwed there. One more; if all nations agree to move to another type of monetary system other than the dollar, it would also send our banking and financial systems, along with the economy into a tailspin; and there's talk everyday amongst the nations of doing this because America has become financially irresponsible, and any one nation's currency is not the answer in these modern times; if they do this, we're done.
It is possible that any one of these can happen without our knowledge and one day or morning we will have an economic and stock market and financial disaster/crash on our hands.
Heights Unknown
http://www.youtube.com/v/-p-ALLAeR50&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
http://www.youtube.com/v/1aPNcUJuiLY&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
(http://hongkongphooey.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/doomsdayclock.jpg)
December 23, 2012...
TICK TICK TICK TICK TICK TICK TICK...http://www.youtube.com/v/J8QV91dp99U&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
OCKLAWAHA
Did Fox News just said it is just "tactic that puts a fear in a lot of people"???
Man,if Nazis had TV station it would be just like Fox,including all the blonde chicks and putting word German in front of everything.
More scarier then solar radiation and asteroids is ..DEBT.
14 trillion dollars debt and raising means you will be in deep s$it,working to pay interest and putting entire country in slave position.
Hopefully China doesnt stop borrowing money to US.
Communist are new capitalist.
Someone predicted 20 years ago that China will become new superpower,West will decline and China will rise economically.
There has never been a year since 1776 that America wasn't said to be doomed for destruction, whether by plague or Hitler or World War III or WMD. Or just by implosion which is probably the most likely of all.
So you are saying you are just fine,because on Fox News they told me "US was always threatened with something in it's history" so now when we have actual,real problem we should be fine.It will go away by itself??
Basically,same people that put you in debt and situation you are now are telling you everything will be fine,there is nothing to worry and it's all fault of some other people.
Hitler?Plague?
Here ya go Ock...
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/01/BA8V1AV589.DTL&tsp=1
Quote
Biblical scholar's date for rapture: May 21, 2011
Justin Berton, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, January 1, 2010
Harold Camping lets out a hearty chuckle when he considers the people who believe the world will end in 2012.
"That date has not one stitch of biblical authority," Camping says from the Oakland office where he runs Family Radio, an evangelical station that reaches listeners around the world. "It's like a fairy tale."
The real date for the end of times, he says, is in 2011.
The Mayans and the recent Hollywood movie "2012" have put the apocalypse in the popular mind this year, but Camping has been at this business for a long time. And while Armageddon is pop science or big-screen entertainment to many, Camping has followers from the Bay Area to China.
Camping, 88, has scrutinized the Bible for almost 70 years and says he has developed a mathematical system to interpret prophecies hidden within the Good Book. One night a few years ago, Camping, a civil engineer by trade, crunched the numbers and was stunned at what he'd found: The world will end May 21, 2011.
This is not the first time Camping has made a bold prediction about Judgment Day.
On Sept. 6, 1994, dozens of Camping's believers gathered inside Alameda's Veterans Memorial Building to await the return of Christ, an event Camping had promised for two years. Followers dressed children in their Sunday best and held Bibles open-faced toward heaven.
But the world did not end. Camping allowed that he may have made a mathematical error. He spent the next decade running new calculations, as well as overseeing a media company that has grown significantly in size and reach.
"We are now translated into 48 languages and have been transmitting into China on an AM station without getting jammed once," Camping said. "How can that happen without God's mercy?"
His office is flanked by satellite dishes in the parking lot that transmit his talk show, "Open Forum." In the Bay Area, he's heard on 610 AM, KEAR. Camping says his company owns about 55 stations in the United States alone, and that his message arrives on every continent.
'I'm looking forward to it'
Employees at the Oakland office run printing presses that publish Camping's pamphlets and books, and some wear T-shirts that read, "May 21, 2011." They're happy to talk about the day they believe their souls will be retrieved by Christ.
"I'm looking forward to it," said Ted Solomon, 60, who started listening to Camping in 1997. He's worked at Family Radio since 2004, making sure international translators properly dictate Camping's sermons.
"This world may have had an attraction to me at one time," Solomon said. "But now it's definitely lost its appeal."
Camping is a frail-looking man, and his voice is low and deep, but it can rise to dramatic peaks with a preacher's flair.
As a young man, he owned an East Bay construction business but longed to work as a servant of God. So he hit the books.
"Because I was an engineer, I was very interested in the numbers," he said. "I'd wonder, 'Why did God put this number in, or that number in?' It was not a question of unbelief, it was a question of, 'There must be a reason for it.' "
Code-breaking phenomenon
Camping is not the only man to see truths in the Bible hidden in the numbers. In the late 1990s, a code-breaking phenomenon took off, led by "The Bible Code," written by former Washington Post journalist Michael Drosnin.
Drosnin developed a technique that revealed prophecies within the Bible's text. A handful of biblical scholars have supported Drosnin's theory, lending it an air of legitimacy, and just as many scholars have decried it as farce.
One of Drosnin's more well-known findings is that a meteor will strike Earth in 2012, the same year some people believe the Mayan calendar marks the end of times, and the same year the "2012" action movie surmised the Earth's crust will destabilize and kill most humans.
Meaning in numbers
By Camping's understanding, the Bible was dictated by God and every word and number carries a spiritual significance. He noticed that particular numbers appeared in the Bible at the same time particular themes are discussed.
The number 5, Camping concluded, equals "atonement." Ten is "completeness." Seventeen means "heaven." Camping patiently explained how he reached his conclusion for May 21, 2011.
"Christ hung on the cross April 1, 33 A.D.," he began. "Now go to April 1 of 2011 A.D., and that's 1,978 years."
Camping then multiplied 1,978 by 365.2422 days - the number of days in each solar year, not to be confused with a calendar year.
Next, Camping noted that April 1 to May 21 encompasses 51 days. Add 51 to the sum of previous multiplication total, and it equals 722,500.
Camping realized that (5 x 10 x 17) x (5 x 10 x 17) = 722,500.
Or put into words: (Atonement x Completeness x Heaven), squared.
"Five times 10 times 17 is telling you a story," Camping said. "It's the story from the time Christ made payment for your sins until you're completely saved.
"I tell ya, I just about fell off my chair when I realized that," Camping said.
James Kreuger, author of "Secrets of the Apocalypse - Revealed," has been studying the end of times for 40 years and is familiar with Camping's work. While Kreuger agrees that the rapture is indeed coming, he disputes Camping's method.
"For all his learning, Camping makes a classic beginner's mistake when he sets a date for Christ's return," Kreuger wrote in an e-mail. "Jesus himself said in Matthew 24:36, 'Of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only.' "
'It is going to happen'
Camping's believers will have none of it.
Rick LaCasse, who attended the September 1994 service in Alameda, said that 15 years later, his faith in Camping has only strengthened.
"Evidently, he was wrong," LaCasse allowed, "but this time it is going to happen. There was some doubt last time, but we didn't have any proofs. This time we do."
Would his opinion of Camping change if May 21, 2011, ended without incident?
"I can't even think like that," LaCasse said. "Everything is too positive right now. There's too little time to think like that."
I guess we should extend tax return just in case Jesus comes back on May 21st.
Good one, Bos!
Just in case anyone thinks that these tweety bird brains are not dangerous; remember Jim Jones and those fools who poisoned themselves so that the aliens orbiting behind the sun could come down and rescue them.
If anyone wants to take advantage of the intellectually challenged nuts, just buy their worldly goods for 10 cents on the day before "the world is going to end." After all, they won't need them, will they?
This offering is based less on religion, and is by a pundit who is reviled by the left and right, alike:
QuoteComments: A Decade of Self-Delusion
by Patrick J. Buchanan
12/29/2009
About the first decade of what was to be the Second American Century, the pessimists have been proven right.
According to the International Monetary Fund, the United States began the century producing 32 percent of the world's gross domestic product. We ended the decade producing 24 percent. No nation in modern history, save for the late Soviet Union, has seen so precipitous a decline in relative power in a single decade.
The United States began the century with a budget surplus. We ended with a deficit of 10 percent of gross domestic product, which will be repeated in 2010. Where the economy was at full employment in 2000, 10 percent of the labor force is out of work today and another 7 percent is underemployed or has given up looking for a job.
Between one-fourth and one-third of all U.S. manufacturing jobs have disappeared in 10 years, the fruits of a free-trade ideology that has proven anything but free for this country. Our future is being outsourced -- to China.
While the median income of American families was stagnant, the national debt doubled.
The dollar lost half its value against the euro. Once the most self-sufficient republic in history, which produced 96 percent of all it consumed, the U.S.A. is almost as dependent on foreign nations today for manufactured goods, and the loans to pay for them, as we were in the early years of the republic.
What the British were to us then, China is today.
Beijing holds the mortgage and grows impatient as we endlessly borrow on equity and refuse to begin paying it down. The possibility exists of an eventual run on the dollar or even a U.S. debt default.
Who did this to us? We did it to ourselves.
We sold ourselves a lot of snake oil about the Global Economy, interdependence, free trade and "it doesn't make any difference where goods are produced." The George W. Bush Republicans ran up the deficit with tax cuts, two wars and a splurge in social spending to rival the guns-and-butter of the Great Society.
Abandoning its role as the fellow who comes and takes away the punch bowl when the party's getting good, the Fed kept the money flowing fast and free, creating the tech bubble that burst in Y2K and the stock and housing bubble that burst at decade's end.
To pull us back from the cliff's edge, over which we were headed a year ago, the Fed doubled the money supply, while the administration ran up deficit spending to the highest level since World War II.
Unlike World War II, however, there is no end in sight to these deficits.
The stock market, which flat-lined over the decade, had to surge 50 percent in 2009 to retrieve the worst losses since the Depression.
Everyone, it seems, except for Washington bureaucrats and Wall Street, for whom the bonuses never seem to stop, has been hammered by the sinking home values and shrinking portfolios.
After Sept. 11, the nation was united behind a president as it had not been since Pearl Harbor. But instead of focusing on the enemies who did this to us, we took Osama bin Laden's bait and plunged into a war in Iraq that bled and divided us, alienated Europe and the Arab world, and destroyed the Republican Party's reputation as the reliable custodian of national security and foreign policy.
The party paid -- with the loss of both houses in 2006 and the presidency in 2008 -- but the nation has not stopped paying.
With nearly 200,000 troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and another 30,000 more on the way, al-Qaida is now in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and North Africa, while the huge U.S. military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq serves as its recruiting poster.
Again, it is not a malevolent fate that has done this to us. We did it to ourselves. We believed all that hubristic blather about our being the "greatest empire since Rome," the "indispensable nation" and "unipolar power" advancing to "benevolent global hegemony" in a series of "cakewalk" wars to "end tyranny in our world."
After a decade of self-delusion and self-indulgence, we must stop deceiving ourselves. As Hurricane Katrina demonstrated, the "can-do" nation that won World War II in Europe and the Pacific in less than four years, that put a man on the moon in the same decade JFK said we would, is history.
We have a government that cannot balance its books, defend its borders or win its wars. And what is it now doing? Drafting another entitlement program as we are informed that the Social Security and Medicare trust funds have unfunded liabilities in the trillions.
At the end of the first decade of the 21st century, the question is not whether we will preside over the creation of a New World Order, but whether America's decline is irreversible.
Thank you, Bucket.
I am reminded by the name of this author why we need a 3rd party in this government to, if not turn things around, at least to neutralize this insane tug-a-war between these two blockhead parties we have now.
You don't need just a 3rd party,you need whole lot of parties.You need checks and balances in government otherwise nothing will change.
And things are not looking pretty.China will outpace everyone soon.
Bos, Finally something you and I can totally agree on. We do indeed need multiple parties and to do so we first need to stop funding the Democrats and the Republicans with taxpayer money.
You and I pay big bucks to hold the primaries of the Republican and Democratic parties even though we are not members of either one. The Libertarians, Greens, States Rights, Socialists, etc. all have to pay for their own. How come?
That is only one of the barriers erected by the dominant parties to prevent the rise of any other. Gerrymandering of the districts is another method and just as corrupting.
We don't need less partisan politics; we need MORE! Just look how one Independent in the Senate has confounded them.
Do either of the dominant parties represent your views about the proper role of government? Not mine either.
Saw a sign in the window of First Coast BioFuels in Lake City; "MY USA NOT YOUR POLITICAL PARTY!" Damn right!
Stephen, I find NN's posts to be well written and reasoned. I certainly don't agree with them all, but they are not rants. Stay cool, stay civil. YOU COMPLETE IDIOT! ;D ;D
Finally, we all debate, give opinions, etc. in a humorous, gleeflul, and, I don't believe it, respectful way instead of name calling, sexual inuendos, etc. Keep up the good work troops!
"HU"
I just love it when StephenDare! pats me on the head and compliments me on my "manners". And to hear that I actually have COMPONENTS of intelligence just makes my head swim! And I am SOOO sorry that I criticized an EXPERT OPINION.
Main Entry: ar·ro·gant
Pronunciation: \-gənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin arrogant-, arrogans, present participle of arrogare
Date: 14th century
1 : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner <an arrogant official>
2 : proceeding from or characterized by arrogance <an arrogant reply>
synonyms see proud
â€" ar·ro·gant·ly adverb
I will be the first to admit that I am not always right. However, I would appreciate a reasoned argument rather than just ignoring my points and claiming all knowing preeminence. Calling me ...stupid? ignorant? slow... I'm not sure what "components of intelligence" means, is not an argument, but just another fallacious tactic. Surely you understand that, don't you StephenDare!? I am making no "vast leaps of accusation". Your opinions have been well documented on this forum and others. If you have a real argument, then make it. The name calling and claims of superior intelligence are just childish. By the way, what are your credentials for "expert" status in anything? FYI, "internet research" will never make you an "expert". We have had this conversation before as well, and you continue to post on these forums and attempt to browbeat real experts about urban planning, road construction, and law. Why do you do that? Are you really so arrogant and self absorbed that you think you are an authority on all subjects? If I didn't know you were a grown man I would say you sound like an obnoxious teenager. Just try listening to the people who have actually successfully accomplished great things in life and you may just REALLY learn something StephenDare!. Now, if you would like to go back to the thread, I am ready. But lets stop with the personal attacks. I will answer you in kind and you never seem to like it when I point out your shortcomings in real life as opposed to your opinion of yourself on these boards.
And I mean that in the spirit of respect and cooperation. ;)