A Closer Look at the Transportation Center
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/744226225_VWrZr-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville shares recently released graphics and architectural documents of the proposed Jacksonville Transportation Center.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-a-closer-look-at-the-transportation-center
Very pretty............still question the proposed site on Bay Street! Not sure how that would tie into FEC/CSX rail system. It would seem to me the wrong location to make use of what is available as of right now.
Will that get me to the Grand Floridian or the Contemporary Resort?
Can I take it to the stadium? :(
Where are the acres of parking lots for cars?
Yawn @ the design
And can we please surround it with meters?
Did they ever figure out how or if the present Convention Center will mold and/or fit into all of this? I still say reconfig the Convention Center back to a train station and move the CC to the Core of Downtown or on the waterfront somewhere downtown. Otherwise, if you leave the CC where it is, at least build a high profile hotel somewhere very near the CC and the Transportation Center.
"HU"
How feasible would it be to come in after phase one and put the TWO SEPARATE BUS TERMINALS on the Prime Osbourne property (aka-onvert it to the metrojax plan)?? Looks possible to me, but I know I'm being overly optimistic.
The design is lame.
Really disappointing design. It looks like a suburban library.
Looks like Anywhere, USA. They should have had a Scandinavian or South American architect design it. At least it isn't another Ted Pappas foam and stucco cupcake.
I could have made this design with matchsticks.
But we should not be surprised what comes out of a community that gets excited about distribution centers, Wal Marts and Golden Corrals.
Get over the looks! Think about a building representing our transportation needs for increased mobility in Jacksonville.
Can we build a $120 million building and parking building, shops, skyway line, etc. and still afford new buses, streetcars, sidewalks and bike lanes, drivers and equipment, investment in new rail lines?
Anyone who is impressed with the design needs to get out of Jacksonville more often.
I am not a huge fan of the design for the office building...but I actually think the Skyway module and parking garage is quite nice....it fits in well with the old station (tower /gate on the north side of the Prime Osborne)....and the garage is screened and includes ground floor retail!
So the huge parking lot is for people to drive downtown from the suburbs, park, then get on some sort of mass transit to move them around the rest of the +/- one mile distance to their office/downtown destination?
Quote from: lindab on December 23, 2009, 10:35:50 AM
Get over the looks! Think about a building representing our transportation needs for increased mobility in Jacksonville.
Can we build a $120 million building and parking building, shops, skyway line, etc. and still afford new buses, streetcars, sidewalks and bike lanes, drivers and equipment, investment in new rail lines?
We have been 'getting over the looks' on many of the city's recent big projects. We need to start designing both functional and beautiful facilities to create a great core. A well designed building can be a big draw in itself, regardless of its function. Sydney Opera House......
The design is horrible. Can someone explain to me why it looks like it was designed in the 1980’s (building forms and colorations)? Was there an RFP put out from the city for the design of this project? Or was it another good ole boy network hand out to RS&H?
Dog Walker: You must have worked for Pappas at some point in time to have that opinion of him . . . and you are not the only one.
Quote from: lindab on December 23, 2009, 10:35:50 AM
Get over the looks! Think about a building representing our transportation needs for increased mobility in Jacksonville.
Can we build a $120 million building and parking building, shops, skyway line, etc. and still afford new buses, streetcars, sidewalks and bike lanes, drivers and equipment, investment in new rail lines?
This is going to be our transportation center for a long time. If we think it looks bad now, I can only imagine how hideous it will look in 20 years. I realize that certain architectural styles hold their value over time, however this structure does not fall into that category.
I know that we aren't going to get something like Berlin's new central train station(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Hauptbahnhof), but we could have gotten a much more inspiring design than this.
Quote from: jason_contentdg on December 23, 2009, 10:41:31 AM
So the huge parking lot is for people to drive downtown from the suburbs, park, then get on some sort of mass transit to move them around the rest of the +/- one mile distance to their office/downtown destination?
what huge parking lot...you mean the existing ones?
The Phase 1 plan includes a small garage for 200 vehicles plus 65 surface spaces under the RTMC....which probably equates to the number of spaces being lost in construction.
I don't get it. What's the purpose of (not one but TWO) park-n-ride facilities? Is there a demographic who's going to drive all the way downtown and then ride public transportation to somewhere else? Or is that for Amtrak?
Quote from: lindab on December 23, 2009, 10:35:50 AM
Get over the looks! Think about a building representing our transportation needs for increased mobility in Jacksonville.
Can we build a $120 million building and parking building, shops, skyway line, etc. and still afford new buses, streetcars, sidewalks and bike lanes, drivers and equipment, investment in new rail lines?
Public buildings say a lot about your city and they establish an image of your city on out-of-towners. One should never say "Get over the looks!" when it comes to public architecture. I don't know about you, but I do not want the impression of our city to be boring, bland, out dated and out of touch with aesthetic value. Enough out-of-towners already have that impression of Jacksonville; it's time for that to change.
Quote from: lindab on December 23, 2009, 10:35:50 AM
Get over the looks! Think about a building representing our transportation needs for increased mobility in Jacksonville.
Can we build a $120 million building and parking building, shops, skyway line, etc. and still afford new buses, streetcars, sidewalks and bike lanes, drivers and equipment, investment in new rail lines?
We can not afford not to spend that money and much more. That is what you have to do when you neglect spending for so long. I get that we have spent a bunch of money over the last few decades on roads and corporate giveaways but we need to actually spend on good projects now.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 23, 2009, 10:44:47 AM
Quote from: jason_contentdg on December 23, 2009, 10:41:31 AM
So the huge parking lot is for people to drive downtown from the suburbs, park, then get on some sort of mass transit to move them around the rest of the +/- one mile distance to their office/downtown destination?
what huge parking lot...you mean the existing ones?
The Phase 1 plan includes a small garage for 200 vehicles plus 65 surface spaces under the RTMC....which probably equates to the number of spaces being lost in construction.
I should say parking in general, because you have those...and a 2,000 space garage set for a future phase.
I thought I was the only one bothered by the "Get over the looks" comment. :) Just the design of this strikes me as a lame strip mall that you would find over on Beach Blvd somewhere. I'm sure this has to be a product of the "good ol boy" network. It really looks like there was no real effort or passion put into the design of it...
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 23, 2009, 10:49:29 AM
Quote from: lindab on December 23, 2009, 10:35:50 AM
Get over the looks! Think about a building representing our transportation needs for increased mobility in Jacksonville.
Can we build a $120 million building and parking building, shops, skyway line, etc. and still afford new buses, streetcars, sidewalks and bike lanes, drivers and equipment, investment in new rail lines?
Public buildings say a lot about your city and they establish an image of your city on out-of-towners. One should never say "Get over the looks!" when it comes to public architecture. I don't know about you, but I do not want the impression of our city to be boring, bland, out dated and out of touch with aesthetic value. Enough out-of-towners already have that impression of Jacksonville; it's time for that to change.
Yeah, just having a major public building that won't be outdated by the time it is constructed would be nice...
What "retail" will temporarily occupy those spaces?
your usually lame Burger King or other mystery meat cafe that seems to always find a home within a bus station serving something that only someone stranded for hours by the bus could possibly eat.
We have not invested in rail upgrades in many decades. Now rail is hot and wow, we are behind in infrastructure to make it happen here. Streetcars for urban transit make great sense but putting in new tracks, power lines, buying the cars, hiring the drivers costs big time. Jacksonville can't do that; it costs too much.
JTA wants BRT for Jacksonville. Citizens want more sidewalks, bike lanes, bus shelters. Good grief, where the heck is the money going to come from? What are Jacksonville's most important transportation needs?
Building a fancy courthouse doesn't get us more judges and a better legal system. Building great looking schools doesn't give Duval a better education system. You think, in terms of priorities, we should focus our money and effort on a great looking transportation center. I don't.
Quote from: lindab on December 23, 2009, 11:52:46 AM
We have not invested in rail upgrades in many decades. Now rail is hot and wow, we are behind in infrastructure to make it happen here. Streetcars for urban transit make great sense but putting in new tracks, power lines, buying the cars, hiring the drivers costs big time. Jacksonville can't do that; it costs too much.
JTA wants BRT for Jacksonville. Citizens want more sidewalks, bike lanes, bus shelters. Good grief, where the heck is the money going to come from? What are Jacksonville's most important transportation needs?
Building a fancy courthouse doesn't get us more judges and a better legal system. Building great looking schools doesn't give Duval a better education system. You think, in terms of priorities, we should focus our money and effort on a great looking transportation center. I don't.
The only flaw with your complaint is it doesn't cost any more to build a nicely designed building than one that isn't designed well.
Looks like a blah suburban high school to me....
Just wanted to chime in and say a decent architectural design does not have to cost one more money than a bad architectural design. Case in point, check out Detroit's new Rosa Parks Transit Center in downtown. This $22.5 million complex includes 15 bus bays for local and suburban buses, a peoplemover station and bays for Transit Windsor. It also doesn't take decades of planning. This project went from concept to completion in two years.
Btw, its designed to take advantage of natural light and harvests rainwater.
(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/08/05/rosa-parks-transit-center_3_ZJlJh_69.jpg)
(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/08/05/rosa-parks-transit-center_4_wmmpE_69.jpg)
(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/08/05/rosa-parks-transit-center_1_XaF4n_69.jpg)
(http://www.instablogsimages.com/images/2009/08/05/rosa-parks-transit-center_6_XXa3x_69.jpg)
For more images: http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/eco-architecture-rosa-parks-transit-center-uses-natural-light-harvests-rainwater/
QuoteDetroit's $22.5 million Rosa Parks Transportation Center on Michigan Avenue is open for business today, roughly two years after planning began.
Mayor Dave Bing and Congresswoman Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick attended a dedication yesterday an unveiled a plaque honoring Parks, according to WWJ.
"Every one of us in this room today owes a debt of gratitude to Mother Parks, whose quiet strength and courage became a catalyst for the movement that brought down Jim Crow," Bing said.
The center includes 15 bus bays and serves as a hub for city and suburban buses, as well as the People Mover and Transit Windsor.
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2009/07/detroits_225_million_rosa_park.html
I don't hate the design, but it's typical conservative Jacksonville. I fear we will never "break the mold" that has plagued Jacksonville design for the last 60 years.
Is it just me or does that clock look like the Back to the Future clock tower?
Quote from: lindab on December 23, 2009, 11:52:46 AM
We have not invested in rail upgrades in many decades. Now rail is hot and wow, we are behind in infrastructure to make it happen here. Streetcars for urban transit make great sense but putting in new tracks, power lines, buying the cars, hiring the drivers costs big time. Jacksonville can't do that; it costs too much.
JTA wants BRT for Jacksonville. Citizens want more sidewalks, bike lanes, bus shelters. Good grief, where the heck is the money going to come from? What are Jacksonville's most important transportation needs?
Building a fancy courthouse doesn't get us more judges and a better legal system. Building great looking schools doesn't give Duval a better education system. You think, in terms of priorities, we should focus our money and effort on a great looking transportation center. I don't.
no, but if you are going to build it why waste the money to make it look like a cat's ass
Who is going to use this?
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 23, 2009, 12:41:49 PM
no, but if you are going to build it why waste the money to make it look like a cat's ass
Unkind to cats!
Quote from: jason_contentdg on December 23, 2009, 11:55:34 AM
The only flaw with your complaint is it doesn't cost any more to build a nicely designed building than one that isn't designed well.
while this can be true, more often than not it isn't!
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 23, 2009, 11:47:10 AM
your usually lame Burger King or other mystery meat cafe that seems to always find a home within a bus station serving something that only someone stranded for hours by the bus could possibly eat.
sorry but that's something a snob would say!
Most major transportation centers have a fast food establishment in them...because they are quick and easy.
especially in Jacksonville, when contractors in this town see any plans that are not a tilt-up concrete box, they panic and put a huge price tag on it. Then they offer a "VE" alternate of a tilt-up box slightly under the original budget and the city and/or developers jump on it. After which they get change ordered to death and the tilt-up box becomes more expensive than the original design.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 23, 2009, 01:17:50 PM
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 23, 2009, 11:47:10 AM
your usually lame Burger King or other mystery meat cafe that seems to always find a home within a bus station serving something that only someone stranded for hours by the bus could possibly eat.
sorry but that's something a snob would say!
Most major transportation centers have a fast food establishment in them...because they are quick and easy.
. . . and cater to the trapped people . . . when it's fact, it’s not snobby. Have you ever found yourself going out of your way to eat at a Greyhound station? I’m guessing no.
Maybe people who work at JTA will use JTA now??
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 23, 2009, 01:24:31 PM
. . . and cater to the trapped people . . . when it's fact, it’s not snobby. Have you ever found yourself going out of your way to eat at a Greyhound station? I’m guessing no.
As a matter of fact, on occasion I got lunch at the bus station in Tallahassee (my office was 2 blocks away)....and I regularly go to places like Burger King, Arby's, etc.
I still say "Pretty" but agree it is not something that would be considered timeless! Reminded me of a School at first glance but as I said before pretty! Somehow I think we could do better.........something that could be considered "Timeless" or at least pretty 30 years from now! For the money being considered we should and deserve the best we can get and for what it will cost (?)......I am hoping that it won't be $350 Million Dollars like our edifice of a Courthouse! For that kind of money we should get a world class rail system in downtown and the outlying area's.
As to the looks, what do you expect from a bunch of road building agencies? Like the Fuller Warren Bridge (see thread at http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4347.0.html ), this complex will be in a position to make a first impression of the City on visitors as it is at the intersection of a main interstate gateway into downtown Jacksonville and the entry points from the Acosta Bridge and Riverside Viaduct. And what will it say to those who come upon it? We are cheap, unimaginative, boring, and lack transcendent visions. And, further, when visitors go to use it, they will wonder who in the world could design such a scheme so unfriendly to its users.
Aside from the dull and drab design, I second the notion that our priorities are out of order here. Phase I should be the Amtrak Station and Streetcars, not more money for non-productive facilities and failed transit operations [a new office building for bureaucrats, more dollars being poured down the worthless $ky-high-way rat hole, and investment in a new bus terminal (by the way, what happens to Rosa Parks on Union after this?) when we aren't doing anything to improve bus service to an acceptable level].
Lastly, the whole multi-block layout is too spread out to be user friendly and is driven by the overhead cross-connector from the bureaucrat's building to the cross-connecting concourse which should be on the next block eastward. By the way, why is there an overhead cross-connector for the bureaucrats anyway? Didn't we just have a discussion that such a crosswalk was unnecessary for the State Attorney's Office to the new courthouse? So, why should this be acceptable for hundreds of thousands of dollars? More proof about what is really front and center with this project.
Another downtown fiasco on par with the courthouse, convention center, Adams Mark/Hyatt, Shipyards, $ky-high-way, and the Landing. A perfect batting ratio for failure. Way to go!
Interested parties should also go back and reread the extensive previous threads on this subject including:http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6735.0.html
andhttp://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-jacksonville-transportation-center-moves-forward
Here are some additional comments of mine I am quoting for expediency:Quote from: stjr on November 12, 2009, 05:49:31 PM
The first thing that strikes me is the HUGE failure to have an all-weather airport-style concourse with moving sidewalks and handicapped car pathway connecting ALL modes of transit from Amtrak to Greyhound running down JOHNSON STREET to minimize connectivity times and travel distance. Connecting to the office building is not why this project is on the boards and should not dictate the location of the connecting concourse.
Also, where is the master plan for streetcar connectivity? Taxi cabs? Bikes? Rental cars? A hotel? Visitors bureau? I could add lots more things to put here. And, as noted, this could be made much more compact with better planning and maybe use of multilayering (e.g. bus terminal under the $ky-high-way or below the Greyhound facility) rather than building outward.
Has JTA/FDOT ever heard of "brain storming", talking with users or potential users, going to see other facilities to find what works well and what doesn't? Or, are they too "smart" for that? This looks like a product of the usual bureaucratic process mixed with incestuous thinking with the same worthless consultants and JTA/FDOT "experts". This "proven" method of operation is guaranteed to produce a result lacking in creativity, vision, inspiration, or full functionality and fulfillment of purpose.
This isn't being approached as an intermodal facility, but rather as separate functions that happen to be side by side. And, the real driver is getting nice, new offices for all the bureaucrats, not serving the travelling public. The architects, consultants, JTA, COJ, and FDOT clearly aren't up to this task. As a result, for now, I withhold my support based on the current plans. I hope the Feds don't do us another $ky-high-way style "favor" and fund this as it is currently proposed.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Miscellaneous/jrtcsite/455355060_QyaKc-L.jpg)
And:Quote from: stjr on November 12, 2009, 10:17:55 PM
(http://jacksonville.com/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/110809TransportationCenter.jpg)
BRT and the $ky-high-way on the same block! That says it all :D Need I say more?
Separately, let's do a little virtualization of the future concept. A commuter train arrives, deposits 300 (a low number for a train) downtown workers at Prime Osborn. These 300 commuters then walk north the equivalent of a block and a half from the train and through the terminal. Because JTA workers selfishly want to walk out their office door to play with their expensive toys, commuters must then walk west for another block down the side of the convention center to the "JTA office concourse". From there, they must again walk north across the street for another half block to the $ky-high-way station. I count that as a three block walk just to TRANSFER.
And, now for some more fun. The 300 riders crowd the undersized $ky-high-way platform waiting for the under capacity $ky-high-way to show up every 15 minutes, if they are lucky. Maybe, after 45 minutes, or more, all 300 have caught a ride "into town". But wait! During that 45 minutes or more, another commuter train arrived from the opposite side of town at the Amtrak station and dropped another 300 riders off. Finally, by mid-afternoon, the $ky-high-way has caught up with the train loads of commuters. This was such a "success", we will repeat the process in reverse in the late afternoon.
Soooo...the question is, how many people are projected to arrive at various intervals on high-capacity commuter trains and how will the low capacity $ky-high-way ever be able to keep up? And, who will walk three blocks just for an intermodal transfer? ??? And, we still haven't addressed the $ky-high-way's evil twin, the BRT, and it's added traffic load on the $ky-high-way. Or is JTA figuring no one is going to ride any of this stuff anyway, so who cares about matching capacities. The way JTA runs and designs things for failure, they may be right.
I'm going to jump on the "Bandwagon" here and say that I don't really care for the design either. But honestly what I'm more concerned about is when is the skyway going to extend into riverside so that I don't have to drive to work anymore.
Why would I drive a mile (+) to the terminal, park and then ride this joke of a mass transit system a half mile to work.
Until we have an "L", a streetcar or even a trolley system that serves at least our urban neighborhoods then this whole project is impractical.
If looks are important, and it sounds like they are, let's just be done with it and turn it into a Southside Strip Center with the same boorish designs that were incorporated in the Barnett Office Park. Why break tradition in NE Florida?
Quote from: A-Finnius on December 23, 2009, 08:16:27 PM
But honestly what I'm more concerned about is when is the skyway going to extend into riverside so that I don't have to drive to work anymore.
Why would I drive a mile (+) to the terminal, park and then ride this joke of a mass transit system a half mile to work.
I wouldn't hold your breath on any Skyway extensions...maybe streetcars to Riverside.
That said, the reason for driving to a Park & Ride is that you save money over parking in the core...if our dowtown garages cost $200+ a month (like in many cities), you might be willing to park at the Prime Osborne and take the Skyway!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 23, 2009, 02:51:22 PM
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 23, 2009, 01:24:31 PM
. . . and cater to the trapped people . . . when it's fact, it’s not snobby. Have you ever found yourself going out of your way to eat at a Greyhound station? I’m guessing no.
As a matter of fact, on occasion I got lunch at the bus station in Tallahassee (my office was 2 blocks away)....and I regularly go to places like Burger King, Arby's, etc.
(http://i410.photobucket.com/albums/pp185/colombiahall/Triada.jpg)
TUFSU1 Damn sorry all those bus restaurants are so sleazy!
(http://www.wplbo.com/news/wp-content/uploads/Greyhound-bus-service-Winter-Park.jpg)
The COACHES (note to all: NOT A BUS) are so primitive and, uh, low class!
(http://www.bug.co.uk/images/blog/greyhound_bus.jpg)
The Styling is WAY out of date! Completely unappealing!
(http://www.jaunted.com/files/6193/NewBus.jpg)
The interior's are filthy, no civilized man or woman would want to ride!
(http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu90/julian4tas/-001.jpg)
The conditions will be like the Third World!
(http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/8123/terminaldetransportes01zc9.jpg)
You can bet if You, Lake, and I designed a bus terminal, it would be just as ugly!
OCKLAWAHA
I wish those renderings were more "in place" and showed how the building would look next to the I-95 ramps. In the pictures, it looks like its out in the middle of open spaces.
I have said it before the biggest problem is the position of the office RTMC It block any future expansion of the skyway. If they did expland it into Brooklyn, the stadium and springfield the ridership would increase dramatically and furthermore any expansion does not have to be the huge roman aqueducts that they have for the currents skyway they are way overbuilt
Looks very nice! I hope we will see it get built very soon!
This is not a if you build it they will come situation. Let's make it sexy and spark some interest so they will come.
Design could be lots more appealing and the location is still bothering me.......no expansion for much of anything! I have yet to see anything about the funding for the white elephant and it worry's me that this thing will come to be like the Courthouse approved at $190 by the voters! It also does not allow for easy movement from one end to the other and I still have issue's with being able to connect to FEC/CSX rail from proposed location!
As is usual for Jacksonville. The "transportation center" makes accommodations for all but one mode of transportation, the lowly bicycle. While major cities are making bicycle transportation a priority within their transportation plans and centers with bike lockers, racks, and even showers. Jacksonville will retain it's status as a second tier city with their lack forward thinking and vision. Oh, and the design sucks ass. It has all the architectural appeal of Regency Square Mall.
I agree Bike Jax! Design could be lots better as to integrating within the City and it's varying architecture! I think we could better and something more cost effective! Location still leaves me cold and transiting from one end to the other leaves a lot to be desired! Somehow I don't think people would be willing to walk the entire length so what are they to do? I agree...........lack of vision and planning.....we appear to spend more playing catch up rather then being active to start with!
Quote from: Bike Jax on December 24, 2009, 11:23:11 AM
As is usual for Jacksonville. The "transportation center" makes accommodations for all but one mode of transportation, the lowly bicycle. While major cities are making bicycle transportation a priority within their transportation plans and centers with bike lockers, racks, and even showers. Jacksonville will retain it's status as a second tier city with their lack forward thinking and vision. Oh, and the design sucks ass. It has all the architectural appeal of Regency Square Mall.
BikeJax, nothing about bikes...or taxis and streetcars ...and very little for pedestrians when you look at how long and roundabout the walking connections will be between modes and the absence of moving sidewalks.
This center will do much to kill Downtown for the next 40 years or more as we blow a great opportunity to make Downtown uniquely livable, connected, convenient, and user-friendly. The Times Union should archive their recent series on Downtown as they will be able to rerun it in a few decades without changing a word.
stjr............nice touch on the "archive" part and only too true!
Quote from: samiam on December 24, 2009, 12:49:20 AM
I have said it before the biggest problem is the position of the office RTMC It block any future expansion of the skyway. If they did expland it into Brooklyn, the stadium and springfield the ridership would increase dramatically and furthermore any expansion does not have to be the huge roman aqueducts that they have for the currents skyway they are way overbuilt
The building would have no effect on expansion...no one is talking about going westward....Brooklyn line would come off the maintenance track near the Acosta Bridge.
As for the questions regarding cost, the entire center has been estimated at somewhere around $120 million...but the only part that's been nailed down beyond general estimates is the Phase 1 shown here....the cost of it is $60 million.
tusu1............not too sure about the design other than alot of walking will take place! There is also no room to expand either.............and as to the cost, have had cost over-run after over-run! What makes you think this will be any different than all of the other projects that have ended up costing the taxpayer more money than what was projected? FDOT/JTA directed does not speak well of something cost efficient nor effective!
Well gee big guy..............this is being touted as the secound coming! I am just not sure which second coming this is going to be! This is the best we can do at only $60 Million for the first phase? I say let them eat cake!
or perhaps on land that JTA already owns...oh wait, that would be the Bay Steet site....oops!
I'm not crazy about the architectural style or ground level design, however I like to look a few steps ahead. Is it safe to assume with this new office building, we can blow the S-Line right through the heart of where JTA's offices sit today?
Quote from: jeh1980 on December 24, 2009, 01:09:38 AM
Looks very nice! I hope we will see it get built very soon!
Jeh, you have to whip these servants into doing the work they signed on for, giving them a free pass on everything because we blindly love Jacksonville, will result in a city nobody can love. Quote from: TheProfessor on December 24, 2009, 01:33:31 AM
This is not a if you build it they will come situation. Let's make it sexy and spark some interest so they will come.
What do you suggest professor? We could go all out and offer nude dining!Quote from: tufsu1 on December 24, 2009, 02:13:34 PM
Quote from: samiam on December 24, 2009, 12:49:20 AM
I have said it before the biggest problem is the position of the office RTMC It block any future expansion of the skyway. If they did expland it into Brooklyn, the stadium and springfield the ridership would increase dramatically and furthermore any expansion does not have to be the huge roman aqueducts that they have for the currents skyway they are way overbuilt
The building would have no effect on expansion...no one is talking about going westward....Brooklyn line would come off the maintenance track near the Acosta Bridge.
As for the questions regarding cost, the entire center has been estimated at somewhere around $120 million...but the only part that's been nailed down beyond general estimates is the Phase 1 shown here....the cost of it is $60 million.
TUFSU1, NOBODY IS TALKING ABOUT GOING WESTWARD? WHY THE HELL NOT? Too black perhaps? The strongest mass transit ridership in our city is coming from NW Jacksonville or west of I-95, Durkeeville is a resurgent booming neighborhood, with more street life, food, fun, and shopping, then any other part of the Urban City. This is part of the problem and should not even be in your vocabulary, QUIT WALLING OFF THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITIES! Punch that horizontal elevator through to the Small Ballpark and ridership would jump 10x what it is today. You obviously have never eaten collards in that cafe on Myrtle, if you had you'd be proposing a subway to there, rather then defending the decision of some cracker planners over at JTA. QuotePosted by: thelakelander
I'm not crazy about the architectural style or ground level design, however I like to look a few steps ahead. Is it safe to assume with this new office building, we can blow the S-Line right through the heart of where JTA's offices sit today?
I wouldn't think so Lake, these geniuses will pave that space for all of the new BRT's, hybrids, articulateds and "PCT TROLLEYS" were bound to get. It would make it easy for a two or three track RDC yard and a rebuilt mainline of major railroad (class 3 - 40 mph freight - 60 mph passenger) quality.
As for design, give the boys a break, at least they have moved closer to the original station on Bay Street. I'd prefer a complete sell out to the 1890 design, brick, arches, towers and stucco. A matching architecture theme would at least draw the eye to this being something of a unified purpose complex. Instead we'll have a ROMAN front on Lee St., a Spanish front on the south side of Bay, and ?? what would you call it on the north side of the street. OCKLAWAHA
Speaking of going west, those old brick warehouse districts down Dennis and Myrtle and the Farmers Market/Beaver Street could become redevelopment meccas with the right transit connections and allowable land uses. Although there is no current plan to extend west, its a bad idea to completely eliminate such an option from the future. After all, we don't really know what our needs will be 20 or 30 years from now.
QuoteAs for design, give the boys a break, at least they have moved closer to the original station on Bay Street. I'd prefer a complete sell out to the 1890 design, brick, arches, towers and stucco. A matching architecture theme would at least draw the eye to this being something of a unified purpose complex. Instead we'll have a ROMAN front on Lee St., a Spanish front on the south side of Bay, and ?? what would you call it on the north side of the street.
Beach Blvd strip mall style! ;D
ok...I'll take the statement partially back...
we can and should serve the neighborhoods west of the Prme Osborne via transit...urban/commuter rail on the s-line and the line paralleling new Kings could do that....but I still see no reason to extend the Skyway west of I-95.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 24, 2009, 05:25:54 PM
ok...I'll take the statement partially back...
we can and should serve the neighborhoods west of the Prme Osborne via transit...urban/commuter rail on the s-line and the line paralleling new Kings could do that....but I still see no reason to extend the Skyway west of I-95.
Just an extension over and onto I-95 for a block or two hence west to EWC, the "S" or Beaver/Myrtle would give us untold $$ Millions $$ in advertising. This is the one great unexploited angle for the Skyway... PR! Nobody save Seattle, Tokyo, Vegas, and Moscow have real monorail systems, and John Q Public, still has it in their heads that this is somehow the future of railroads (which is completely false BTW). We have the damn thing, it runs, lets use it to some advantage besides a glorified horizontal elevator (which it is).
I still think the effect on Mr. Public, the wife and kids on the screaming trip down the expressway to MICKEYWORLD would blow people out of their seats. How many of these dudes are nationally famous executives? managers? CFO's? CEO's? Professors? Doctors? etc? The guy sees this thing going along the road or over the road, pokes his wife and says, "MARGE! Did you see THAT?" Cha-Ching! OCKLAWAHA
Design is missing sniper tower.
Quote from: Bostech on December 24, 2009, 05:53:02 PM
Design is missing sniper tower.
Funny Bostech, the old station across the street on the south side of Bay should fit your needs comfortably... However if I was a sniper, the American South is the LAST PLACE on earth I'd try and screw up the populous. When any Southron shouts, "Hey y'all watch this..." get the hell out of his way, it's probably the last thing he'll ever say. OCKLAWAHA
Hay guys...........I just got struck by a brain storm. We already have property available at the Prime Osburn so lets buy some army surplus tents and form our own "Tent City"! Portapotties and a couple of hose's and shazam! Cheap, easily moveable and cheap to add on to......what more could JTA/FDOT want! Put a Cell Site on Wheels smack dab in the middle and a phone system is up and running, not to mention sniper tower for slow movers!
Ock,don't let Bostech get to you with his jokes.
In order to get better design results from the city, we simply have to vote into city council people who aren't from here at all. We need people from big cities, they're moving down here all the time. Let's find them and get them elected. The present establishment here is purposefully designing these places in order for the urban core to stay as it is. They want to keep Jacksonville a driver's paradise where, it is okay to run over children and their mothers or any other pedestrian for that matter! Let's hold the city accountable and demand that they civilize Jacksonville, or simply step aside and let professionals do the job that they can't do! It's time to wrestle control of the city from the country bumpkins that think that they own it, and make it liveable for everybody, weather the drive or walk.
I must clarify, I don't think bad of country people. The term "Bumpkin" was just used to slam city council. I'm sure many of us think the same about our beloved city leaders.
urbaknight..........your not saying anything that alot of us have not already said! Not only do we have bufoons (not all by the way) coming out our ears but we have the GOB Network busy lining their pockets at the taxpayer expense. There are some Council members that do show some concern for the people who voted them into office but not many! Do your homework before voting and go from there!
Interesting, how do they come up with these ideas and concepts? As others have said you shouldn't be surprised.
Having been to the multimodal station in St. Louis, I am disappointed in Jacksonville's collective silence regarding Amtrak. I have been frustrated for years to know that train passengers have to board and detrain at a shed on the Northside. Does anybody in Jacksonville care? Downtown would greatly benefit from travelers being able to access local lodging and retail in the urban core and not having to settle for a glorified shack with bathrooms and snack machines. Many people in our town don't even know that we even have a train station. This is shameful...
Quote from: Bostech on December 25, 2009, 07:38:21 PM
Ock,don't let Bostech get to you with his jokes.
I thought your joke was funny! That's why I said we already have one tower... If we had leaders smart enough to MATCH the design of the new building with the old buildings we might get more towers, lots of arches, stucco with brick trim. The station that fronts Bay Street, on it's south side is what is left of our First Jacksonville Station. They don't care about history, or we would be trying to make them blend together.
Enjoy Bostech, everybody understands your feelings on the ugly design. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 24, 2009, 06:19:48 PM
Hay guys...........I just got struck by a brain storm. We already have property available at the Prime Osburn so lets buy some army surplus tents and form our own "Tent City"! Portapotties and a couple of hose's and shazam! Cheap, easily moveable and cheap to add on to......what more could JTA/FDOT want! Put a Cell Site on Wheels smack dab in the middle and a phone system is up and running, not to mention sniper tower for slow movers!
Sounds Perfect to me CS, sound planning, and the GOB's can put the extra cash saved, in their pockets. Oh shit, we've done it now! Gave them a whole new concept. Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 29, 2009, 04:44:49 AM
Interesting, how do they come up with these ideas and concepts? As others have said you shouldn't be surprised.
He probably has a stash of the same highly inspired hooch that Ock has! YIPPIEEEE!Quote from: Jaxson on December 29, 2009, 09:07:51 AM
Having been to the multimodal station in St. Louis, I am disappointed in Jacksonville's collective silence regarding Amtrak. I have been frustrated for years to know that train passengers have to board and detrain at a shed on the Northside. Does anybody in Jacksonville care? Downtown would greatly benefit from travelers being able to access local lodging and retail in the urban core and not having to settle for a glorified shack with bathrooms and snack machines. Many people in our town don't even know that we even have a train station. This is shameful...
What can I say, you are 100% right in every respect. Allowing that STUPID Amshack to be built was dumb in the 52Nd degree in the first place. Even IF they wanted to move out of JTCO, they could have left two platforms active and built the AMSHACK under the Lee Street Viaduct.
Always the Jacksonville battle cry, "Should have, would have, could have!"OCKLAWAHA
"AMSHACK" .............yup! That does describe very accurately just what the hell is there Ock! With that ediface, Jacksonville advertise's just what to expect! Once again.......no plan, no vision of what could be,but a glaring example of what is!
QuoteGOB Network
CS - Congress cannot FIX themselves of the GOB Network at the National level. State reps and senators cannot remove their hands from the influence factor at the state level, what makes you think that council persons can do the same? The Rule is, those with the gold MAKE THE RULES.
mtraininjax.......I agree.......infact that is glaringly obvious with some of the projects that have taken place here in town......roads being moved to acquire property that belongs to certain individuals or positions handed out because of their parents and or name........the list goes on! Council people need to do a better job representing those who put them into office, they need to represent their constituants! They need to represent all rather than just a select few!
earlier in this thread Lake posted some pics about the new Detroit Transportation Center....here's an article from Metropolis Magazine aout it.
http://www.metropolismag.com/story/20091216/a-symbol-of-progress
I found this background information especially interesting...
"The city had been using a temporary site at the edge of a downtown pocket park since late 2001, when the bus terminal at Cadillac Square was demolished to make way for the construction of Campus Martius Park."
Pocket Parks make lots of sense to me and would do wonders for something likewise downtown! I does not take alot of of anything other than imagination.............oops! Sorry, City Hall doesn't have any....so forget it!
sure...but Lake didn't point out that that the park used to be the location of the central bus station...and that transit was forced to use a temporary facility for at least 8 years.
I can just imagine how something like that would go over in this town...oh wait, maybe it already has in the for of Amtrak!
With the current city budget mess, I don't think we will be seeing any new pocket parks anytime soon. Thankfully. Unless Peyton wants to be more of a lightning rod than he already is...
(http://members.tripod.com/~joycewiggins/photo/886.jpg)
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 30, 2009, 07:16:08 PM
sure...but Lake didn't point out that that the park used to be the location of the central bus station...and that transit was forced to use a temporary facility for at least 8 years.
I can just imagine how something like that would go over in this town...oh wait, maybe it already has in the for of Amtrak!
More then you suspect TUFSU, our own "Union Bus Station" was opened by Colonial Stages at the corner of Laura and Forsyth, where BOA is today, about 1926. It was served by the Jacksonville Traction Streetcars, and through buses from throughout the Southeast. The San Jose "BRT" a non-stop bus to San Jose Village also left from this area, I believe it was Hourly. The JTCO ran the Camp Johnston Route as what I jokingly refer to as "SRT" (Streetcar Rapid Transit) a non-stop service from the central stations to the base for a quarter.
As for Amtrak? Yeah, we did that already and now we're trying to push all the rest out to the "Ranch" in LaVilla, rather then THE STATION in LaVilla. 20 years from now, we'll all be talking about how stupid that Metropolitan St. Augustine, and Palatka, all have a Transportation Center, and we have more of a Transportation "Farm". Like the current Florida HSR plan, doomed to stumble before we start. OCKLAWAHA
When your right ...........your right Ock!
The more I see about the proposed Transportation Center, the more I think we are going in the wrong direction, both design wise and use wise! There does not appear to be any provision for expansion in any direction, other than up or down, and there most assuredly is no rail option the way things are layed out! I am beginning to believe this is not only a very bad design but a very bad idea where the proposed site is going to be located! Somehow I think if this is the best we can do, we are doomed to repeat mistakes made in the past and I won't start listing them ..........there is not enough room! The general rule of thumb should be .....will it be acceptable 20 years from now and this proposal doesn't meet that criteria!
somehow I'm not surprised you feel that way CS...but please explain how the Transportation Center, which is directly connected to the Skyway and adjacent to the Prime Osborn and associated RR tracks, doesn't have or allow for a rail option.
Well tufsu1........somehow I missed railroad tracks at the new transportation center! I mean we are showing bus's using it.........so whats the deal, do you take a bus to get to trains? Or are you supposed to use the $kyway, if its running, to get to train? I can see where there are plenty of parking spaces for JTA and FDOT and I guess I have to assume FHP would use the same secure parking area, but what about visitors? They are supposed to park somewhere and use BRT to get there? Access to any rail system is not taken into account and with a lack of expansion possibility's I can't see where it would be? I guess we get to use cab's for CRT (Cab Rapid Transit) for movement at the surface! With no expansion possibilities where would rail go? Rail is already at the Prime Osburn and I am a firm believer in using what we have now rather than trying to fund something that may happen!
It is indeed a bit humorous, ironic, and mostly very sad and outrageous, that the so called builders and empowered "promoters" of mass transit would hold up, as an example of how to avoid it altogether, their very own brand new HQ's featuring the best employee parking facilities downtown has to offer, dead center of a brand new, taxpayer financed, intermodal mass transit hub. You just can't make up the stupidity and lameness of our fearless leaders in this City sometimes.
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 31, 2009, 04:20:32 PM
Well tufsu1........somehow I missed railroad tracks at the new transportation center!
yes you did...if you look at the whole plans for the center you will see the tracks on the south side of the Prime Osborn w/ pedestrian bridges connecting to them....Phase 1 doesn't have anything direct (other than skyway) because rail isn't ready for implementation yet (see Lake's posts).
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8830/60878429xh4.jpg)
Bangkok's Transit Center, ALL UNDER ONE ROOF.
Quote from: CS Foltz on December 31, 2009, 04:20:32 PM
Well tufsu1........somehow I missed railroad tracks at the new transportation center! I mean we are showing bus's using it.........so whats the deal, do you take a bus to get to trains?
A. YES, that IS the idea, you take buses to Commuter Trains to Skyways to Streetcars to Water Taxis to Taxi Cabs to BRT to Express Bus to Amtrak to Skyways to Water Taxis to Streetcars to Taxi Cabs to BRT to Commuter Trains to Express Buses to Amtrak... Got it? This is how it should be, Good Transit equals a Good Mix + Matrix of routes. Transportation Center should make them all available from one waiting room, one or two Concourses, and shared infrastructure.
What JTA has wrong, is the fault of the COJ not moving a completely disfunctional Convention Center out of the Jacksonville Terminal area so that they can put all of their design elements into a single street address. There is NOTHING wrong with the elements (though some hate the building style) but each unit is well planned. It's the way they are sewn all over LaVilla with 4-5 blocks between Intercity Bus and Amtrak, not to mention at least 4 flights of (probable broken escalators) thus completely defeating the whole idea of "CENTER."(http://api.ning.com/files/YZLiDqdvzrJe5B0hslZtALosKKsO18MdSNu-D2Dq*5mTrcqsJt*8F7mQhQ2JOOVrMvzzLyCnV-0eGI5Uhjc-brThoniSgwDM/NorthCoastTransportationCenters.jpg)
CLEVELAND'S CONCEPT STATION, ALL MODES IN ONE SPOT!
QuoteFrom The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 [gcide]:
Center \Cen"ter\, noun [F. centre, fr. L. centrum, fr. round which a circle is described, fr. ? to prick, goad.]
1. A point equally distant from the extremities of a line, figure, or body, or from all parts of the circumference of a circle; the middle point or place.
2. The middle or central portion of anything.
3. A principal or important point of concentration; the nucleus around which things are gathered or to which they tend; an object of attention, action, or force; as, a center of attaction.
{Center of a curve} or {Center of a surface} (Geom.) (a) A point such that every line drawn through the point and terminated by the curve or surface is bisected at the point. (b) The fixed point of reference in polar co["o]rdinates. See {Co["o]rdinates}.
{Center of gyration} (Mech.), that point in a rotating body at which the whole mass might be concentrated (theoretically) without altering the resistance of the intertia of the body to angular acceleration or retardation.
{Center of motion}, the point which remains at rest, while all the other parts of a body move round it.
From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 [gcide]:
Center \Cen"ter\, Centre \Cen"tre\, verb (used with an object)
1. To place or fix in the center or on a central point. --Milton.
2. To collect to a point; to concentrate.
From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 [gcide]:
Center \Cen"ter\, Centre \Cen"tre\ verb (used without an object) [imp. & p. p. {Centered} or {Centred}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Centering} or {Centring}.]
1. To be placed in a center; to be central.
2. To be collected to a point; to be concentrated; to rest on, or gather about, as a center.
From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:
center
adjective
1: equally distant from the extremes [syn: {center(a)}, {halfway}, {middle(a)}, {midway}]
noun
1: an area that is approximately central within some larger region; "it is in the center of town"; "they ran forward into the heart of the struggle"; "they were in the eye of the storm" [syn: {centre}, {middle}, {heart}, {eye}]
2: a building dedicated to a particular activity; "they were raising money to build a new center for research" [syn: {centre}]
3: a point equidistant from the ends of a line or the extremities of a figure [syn: {centre}, {midpoint}]
4: the object upon which interest and attention focuses; "his stories made him the center of the party" [syn: {center of attention}]
5: a place where some particular activity is concentrated; "they received messages from several centers" [syn: {centre}]
verb
1: center upon; "Her entire attention centered on her children"; "Our day revolved around our work" [syn: {focus on}, {center on}, {revolve around}, {revolve about}, {concentrate on}]
2: move into the center; "That vase in the picture is not centered" [syn: {centre}]
WANNA HAVE SOME FUN? TRY AND MAKE ANY OF THE ABOVE DEFINITIONS FIT THE JRTC PLANS AS PRESENTED, TO THE LETTER! GOOD LUCK! YOUR GOING TO NEED IT!(http://www.greenroofs.com/projects/tempe_transportation_center/tempe_transportation_center8.jpg)
Leeds Certified Transportation Center ONE BUILDING in Tempe AZQuoteOr are you supposed to use the $kyway, if its running, to get to train?
A. YES!QuoteI can see where there are plenty of parking spaces for JTA and FDOT and I guess I have to assume FHP would use the same secure parking area, but what about visitors? They are supposed to park somewhere and use BRT to get there?
Both options are provided for, parking at the Transportation Center and of course the option of using park and ride facilities in more distant areas and using transit into downtown. Again, they did a good job on elements.
Quote
Access to any rail system is not taken into account and with a lack of expansion possibility's I can't see where it would be? I guess we get to use cab's for CRT (Cab Rapid Transit) for movement at the surface! With no expansion possibilities where would rail go? Rail is already at the Prime Osburn and I am a firm believer in using what we have now rather than trying to fund something that may happen!
Actually we have rail along McCoys Creek already, and if the COJ hadn't gotten stupid and built the damn Lee Street Viaduct way too low, we would still have two platforms and 4 boarding tracks in place. As it is South of the Station-Convention Center Fence, there is room for 5 tracks and platforms. Between the South wall of the 1919 station-Convention Center and the Fence, WITHIN the current parking area, (left front of the Station) there is room for another 5 tracks and platforms. So as a terminal, we can still have 10 tracks of the USDOT recommended 12, but we've got to tear down the viaduct AGAIN and raise it from 16 feet to 24 feet.
The Consultant that did the plan must have been smoking crack when he/she decided that we should dig a "tub" and put the tracks down in it so they could pass under the bridge. I asked them if they knew that was a flood plain which destroyed the original station in a tropical storm circa 1895. NOPE! Don't know the history. The "Tubs" would also involve wrecking the underground concourses/tunnels from the station to the tracks and require an expensive overhead walkway system.
Worse? Yeah, he/she was SNORTING PURE COKE when they decided that the Southside trains would use the current FEC area platforms, and North and Westside trains would use a new yard and platforms where the old Post Office once stood, ending at the Courtyard that was once the original Union Station alongside Bay Street.
Just imagine you live in Oceanway and work in Bay Meadows... DAMN! "JUST SAY NOSE TO DRUGS!"(http://api.ning.com/files/YZLiDqdvzrI8CO0qfLVGWbhXIXwBzK1cTCNoHoHruZ3JKAu9Z-S4pyJ4eMc9P3yawprBIezGep3Yq8y8Y2V1Amm56Lr1K0ZJ/stationareadevelop2s.jpg)
DONE RIGHT THE STATION SHOULD ANCHOR TRUE DEVELOPMENT DOWNTOWN, DONE WRONG... NOTHING!Quote from: stjr on December 31, 2009, 10:53:02 PM
It is indeed a bit humorous, ironic, and mostly very sad and outrageous, that the so called builders and empowered "promoters" of mass transit would hold up, as an example of how to avoid it altogether, their very own brand new HQ's featuring the best employee parking facilities downtown has to offer, dead center of a brand new, taxpayer financed, intermodal mass transit hub. You just can't make up the stupidity and lameness of our fearless leaders in this City sometimes.
Again, there is nothing wrong with the elements as designed, they just need to be moved and arranged where the Prime Osbourne Convention HALL AREA is today, and the old Post Office once stood. MJ has a complete design using the same elements. Something I designed back in 1976, and updated for the MJ BOYZ, Lakelander took it home on the back of a napkin and created a rendering using the SAME buildings, same design, same everything (except the Greyhound Station, which I think should be an Intercity UNION bus Station, with at least 3 carriers recruited to join our new Terminal. *Psst. INCENTIVES COJ, *INCENTIVES!) using space currently taken by the Morphidite excuse for a Convention Hall. It's really not about an office building as much as it is about order in the new "center," if indeed they even build a "CENTER." (I added the definitions for those JTA consultants who are spatially challenged.) Getting the offices out of the Myrtle Avenue Bus Yard, opens the right-of-way to rebuild the "S" line into Springfield, for Northside Commuter Rail or LRT. (http://api.ning.com/files/AZGD8M1p2gsw8na39l5ULsgaVtTrMJ-JpgPsJzc4zg6Bk4AXfjrvfleh78Y6WhBpTzLm4wuxm2-dfS4Y2OvwVv7SMg2gMbdW/Mo.RiverRunneratKirkwoodMo.inautumn2.jpg)
WHAT SAN MARCO AT ATLANTIC SHOULD LOOK LIKE, JUST ADD BRT AND SKYWAY.
OCKLAWAHA
wow this site is growing! the lid is heavy n the water is boiling!! Pressure get Progress, more urban minded members here, less turtles. Impressive...most impressive.
Quote from: Coolyfett on January 01, 2010, 11:05:55 AM
wow this site is growing! the lid is heavy n the water is boiling!! Pressure get Progress, more urban minded members here, less turtles. Impressive...most impressive.
Good to see you back brother!OCKLAWAHA
Ock............I understand the concept of many types of transportation coming together to form a single mass transit system but disagree not only with the where, but the sequencing! The Phase One, as tufsu1 the magnificent so pointedly stated is but the start of a whole new taxpayer funded edifice! Not only is the location kinda missplaced but so is what is being done. I agree with your point as to the Prime Osburn being the one! Not only are rail track's in place already, but the entire second floor is just about empty and just calling out to be used! Phase 1 is about $60 Million of our hard earned tax dollars being spent on our behalf by misguided uniformed and ignorant people who are just bound and determined to have the latest and greatest! Kinda reminds me of the new white elephant ......"Court House" cost @ $350 Million (bet it ends up more....any takers?) The old Court House and the Annex could have been refurbished and upgraded for probably about what the voters approved @ $190 Million or less! I have to ask.........why not use the Prime Osburn for what it was designed to do? Why not upgrade it to current standards and make that into the new Transportation Center? It was the Train Transportation Center at one time and would allow more options for future expansions in four different directions...........five if you count up! So what is the deal.............why a new and unexciting design when we have something that already fits the bill with a minimun of our tax dollars!
The HUGE stumbling block to using Union Terminal for its intended transportation purpose - the City's refusal to consider relocating (or closing) the Convention-less Center. JTA and FDOT have no control over this city-owned facility, and had to design the JTC with the mandate that the CC wasn't moving and leave room for expansion of the CC on this site.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 01, 2010, 02:32:07 PM
The HUGE stumbling block to using Union Terminal for its intended transportation purpose - the City's refusal to consider relocating (or closing) the Convention-less Center. JTA and FDOT have no control over this city-owned facility, and had to design the JTC with the mandate that the CC wasn't moving and leave room for expansion of the CC on this site.
All of us "inside" the story know the City know what we are dealing with. "NEANDERTHAL'S" is a kind word for them. In the words of a infamous drill Sargent, "You people are not a mob, your not smart enough to be a mob. Mobs have leaders, you people don't have leaders, you're a HERD! So since I'm waxing historic here, "Where the Sun now stands in the sky, I shall call them a herd of Neanderthals forever!" (Apology's to Chief Joseph)
The crime is, can we derail their plans long enough to get some leadership in City Hall? We need three things to make this happen, MEDIA, MEDIA and MEDIA. Along with negative attention comes a promise you will NEVER BE REELECTED, and WE WANT VISIONARY THINKERS AND DOERS!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 01, 2010, 05:38:08 PM
All of us "inside" the story know the City know what we are dealing with. "NEANDERTHAL'S" is a kind word for them. [/b]
Ock, no need to insult Neanderthals just because our public officials can't add 1 +1 to get anything other than a big "0". ;D
stjr............City could not add with their collective shoes off! City of Jacksonville has had no vision, plan or any imagination for quite a few years now! I look at the so-called Projects that have taken place over , say the last five years, and have to ask ...........have any come to completion? We appear to form "Committee's for review" or "Discussion" at the drop of a hat, but have yet to complete much of anything! Infact, about the only thing the City has managed to do..........is spend, spend, spend! I am really glad to see we have bottomless pockets to pay for all of the mistakes that the City has seen fit to saddle the taxpayers with! I mean we have AIMO's, all 229 of them at about $27 Million dollars a year and think just what could be done with that amount of money for the public and not the GOB Network.............I mean we could even afford to do some more "Studies" to prove the JTA is a bunch of know nothing concrete loving light pole huggers that are just concerned about their little fiefdom and what they want! I say let them eat cake........make the Prime Osburn back into what it was before the stupid City made it into what it is now..........a stand alone edifice, no shopping, no motels/hotels and no transportation! Unless you count CRT (Cab Rapid Transit) to go anywhere......every Convention Center needs a grand view of wasted useless monorail system.......maybe we could persuade Rat City to procure it?
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 01, 2010, 01:37:45 PM
Ock............I understand the concept of many types of transportation coming together to form a single mass transit system but disagree not only with the where, but the sequencing! The Phase One, as tufsu1 the magnificent so pointedly stated is but the start of a whole new taxpayer funded edifice! Not only is the location kinda missplaced but so is what is being done. I agree with your point as to the Prime Osburn being the one! Not only are rail track's in place already, but the entire second floor is just about empty and just calling out to be used! Phase 1 is about $60 Million of our hard earned tax dollars being spent on our behalf by misguided uniformed and ignorant people who are just bound and determined to have the latest and greatest! Kinda reminds me of the new white elephant ......"Court House" cost @ $350 Million (bet it ends up more....any takers?) The old Court House and the Annex could have been refurbished and upgraded for probably about what the voters approved @ $190 Million or less! I have to ask.........why not use the Prime Osburn for what it was designed to do? Why not upgrade it to current standards and make that into the new Transportation Center? It was the Train Transportation Center at one time and would allow more options for future expansions in four different directions...........five if you count up! So what is the deal.............why a new and unexciting design when we have something that already fits the bill with a minimun of our tax dollars!
wow...the magnificent...thanks CS...but more importantly, do I have a vision or a plan?
Quote from: stjr on January 01, 2010, 05:44:54 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 01, 2010, 05:38:08 PM
All of us "inside" the story know the City know what we are dealing with. "NEANDERTHAL'S" is a kind word for them. [/b]
Ock, no need to insult Neanderthals just because our public officials can't add 1 +1 to get anything other than a big "0". ;D
Ooh, didn't think about THAT, y'all don't think I'll hear from GEICO do you? FYI, I understand one of the Cavemen has a place out by Mayo Clinic, or maybe PVB, FOR REAL!QuoteQuote from: CS Foltz on Today at 07:14:46 PM
...I mean we could even afford to do some more "Studies" to prove the JTA is a bunch of know nothing concrete loving light pole huggers that are just concerned about their little fiefdom and what they want!
Sorry CS, got to correct that one. One need only travel on the Commodore Point Expressway, I-95 near I-295 South, and several other large segments of our "FREEway," to see these boys don't even know who to call for light poles! Or bulbs! Sucks to be in the dark. OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I believe the GEICO caveman was actually at the Jags-St. Louis game this year for a halftime show. If he lives here, that might explain why he was available.
Quote from: stjr on January 01, 2010, 11:05:19 PM
Ock, I believe the GEICO caveman was actually at the Jags-St. Louis game this year for a halftime show. If he lives here, that might explain why he was available.
Not exactly Transportation here, but they did invent the wheel! ...and they invented INVENTING!
There were 5 Cavemen, Jeff Daniel Phillips and Ben Weber played the two earliest cavemen. Actor John Lehr appears most frequently as the caveman. Other cavemen are played by Ben Wilson and Jim Rose. They all have pretty extensive bio's as actors, comedians, directors and writers. I'm not sure which is reputed to live or vacation here. I did find where they had/have been in downtown on several occasions, sporting events and such.
Which gives me an idea...
Since these guys are busy, we can't run one for Mayor, but Don Knotts, he could show Peyton how it's done! He is probably available and would do a great job, just doing whatever he does best.
What do you think? DON KNOTTS FOR MAYOR!OCKLAWAHA
I think Don Knotts is busy, or at least unavailble - he died in 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Knotts#Death
Even deceased...........he could do better then Johnny!
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 02, 2010, 12:25:35 AM
I think Don Knotts is busy, or at least unavailble - he died in 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Knotts#Death
Yes I know that... That is why I suggested someone with MORE thought process then Peyton!
Don Knott's is OUR GUY! Thanks for taking the bait guys.OCKLAWAHA
Anytime, Ock ... I am here to serve! :)
tufsu1 ......you do read it all...........glad to hear/see that! I enjoy our conversations!
I know it's already been said, but this thing is incredibly bland. I'd expect to see something like this in Macon or Mobile, but not Jacksonville. City leaders must be interesting in created memorable places wherever possible, and it doesn't take a whole lot of money to do so. Jacksonville should have take a page out of Detroit's playbook for their new $22.5 million Rosa Parks Transit Center (http://www.metropolismag.com/story/20091216/a-symbol-of-progress):
(http://www.metropolismag.com/webimages/4075/25267.jpg)
(http://www.metropolismag.com/webimages/4075/24208.jpg)
(http://www.metropolismag.com/webimages/4075/10553.jpg)
(http://www.metropolismag.com/webimages/4075/10832.jpg)
I think you'd raise the ire of the historical folks, if you built something as modern looking as that next to the historic rail terminals.
I don't think the historic folks would care. They didn't tend to raise much fuss when half of DT was obliterated. Can't imagine them raising serious cane over the design of something that will be located on the backside of the the old terminal. If they did, they would be questioning the current design as well.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 04, 2010, 07:28:27 AM
I think you'd raise the ire of the historical folks, if you built something as modern looking as that next to the historic rail terminals.
No Charles, they would raise the ire of You and I! As long as this stupid "Ranch" stays completely north of Bay, I wouldn't give a rats ass. But it shouldn't (except for the Skyway module) be built north of Bay at all. Move this type of construction into the 1890-1919 station and more then a few purists will declare war on JTA, FDOT, COJ etc.
Gee Charles, are we old enough to be considered "historic folks?"OCKLAWAHA
By the way, how is this for history? The Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto.
(http://www.gothereguide.com/Images/Canada/Toronto/Royal_ontario_museum.jpg)
Or how about the Indianapolis Public Library?
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/capture_indy/upload/1242430433153/full.jpg)
Bringing this home locally, where is Railroad Row or the streetcar barn these days? Both were taken down by transportation projects (skyway, new Acosta Bridge ramps). Since the architectural integrity of the old terminal is so important, why isn't the preservation of the terminal's tunnels a part of the overall plan.
Is it me or does anyone else find it kind of ironic that a city that cares nothing about preserving history can turn around and use respecting history as an excuse for bland architectural design?
lake.............I agree!! Bad enough we have not vision or no plan, but to pay hard earned tax dollars for mediocrity is pathetic!
Quote from: thelakelander on January 04, 2010, 10:31:02 AM
By the way, how is this for history? The Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto.
(http://www.gothereguide.com/Images/Canada/Toronto/Royal_ontario_museum.jpg)
SUCKS
QuoteOr how about the Indianapolis Public Library?
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/capture_indy/upload/1242430433153/full.jpg)
SUCKS TWICE
QuoteBringing this home locally, where is Railroad Row or the streetcar barn these days? Both were taken down by transportation projects (skyway, new Acosta Bridge ramps). Since the architectural integrity of the old terminal is so important, why isn't the preservation of the terminals tunnels a part of the overall plan.
Is it me or does anyone else find it kind of ironic that a city that cares nothing about preserving history can turn around and use respecting history as an excuse for bland architectural design?
QuoteJacksonville Terminal Complex ** (added 1976 - Building - #76000590)
Also known as 1898 Union Station and 1919 Jacksonville Terminal
Duval County - 1000 W. Bay St., Jacksonville
(30 acres, 2 buildings)
Historic Significance: Event, Architecture/Engineering
Architect, builder, or engineer: Murchison,Kenneth M., Howe,W.B.W.
Architectural Style: Italian Villa
Area of Significance: Transportation, Architecture, Commerce
Period of Significance: 1875-1899, 1900-1924
I fully agree that the city has done a horrible job of preservation, furthermore, destruction of the remaining tunnels, and terminal station elements is a crime. The modern designs are nice, and in many cases the blends of design are nice, but with the historical elements of our terminal I think it would amount to desecration of the Temple, to do such changes. The JTA village however, COULD BE completely modern, or they could follow the Italian-Villa style of the 1898 station. The one area where this opportunity appears without damage to the original building, is a train shed over the boarding tracks could be designed rather then standard butterfly sheds. OCKLAWAHA
to bad RS&H butchered the trainbay side of the terminal for the convention center addition!
Ock, I know you're a fan of conservative traditional architecture, but I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying to cover the old terminal with glass or even advocating a modern design (although I do prefer architecture to be designed for its time instead of copying styles from an era gone bye). I was just pointing out how hypocritical it is to rip down history with no problem on a regular basis and then use "respecting history" as an excuse for substandard design.
Oh no, I got it and I agree 100%. Frankly I love ultra-modern, Ikea modeled their stores after my house interiors! LOL!
I just don't think in the case of Jax Terminal, we should allow a modern style to steal from that incredible mind blowing entry on Lee, or the Italian Villa side on Bay Street. As you know this same city that now claims they are building "to protect the terminals history" wants to wreck the old tunnel system, build a God-Awful "skywalk" from the Headhouse all the way to McCoys Creek, that will soar above everything, then add a "WART" on the south end of the old station - for what? A station! In effect they say we have to build a station on the station because with the Prime Osbourne we haven't a station at the station, thus we are short one station. HUH? Nothing like a perfectly balanced dominant structure being thrown completely off center by some $25 dollar plywood and stucco wanna be addition. Hells bells, they might as well bring in the house trailers.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteHells bells, they might as well bring in the house trailers.
I think that's in Phase 2! ;)
Ock, you've been there, do the tunnels go all the way out to the new main lines? I was one of those folks that visited that visiting commuter rail car - and it seems like the new tracks are lower than the old level. Even thought I could see the end of the tunnel poking out of the embankment.
By the way, if you raise the Lee Street Viaduct, to allow trains underneath, you will cut across the view of the grand front of the Terminal (which is why Godbold cut it back, to give a view from downtown).
I would not worry about a grand view. The Acosta Bridge ramps and skyway killed that. Instead of preserving a not so grand view with no function, at the base, its better to design to make sure transportation works.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/613582296_QssPh-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453953141_EkwrF-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453951707_wLpge-M.jpg)
Ock, even using a traditional style doesn't have to be bland and boring. This will be a gateway public structure. It should be designed as one.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/744226263_EJQtm-M.jpg)
Nothing about this compliments the grand old architectural style of the terminal across the street.
Oh, lake, I concur, but I'd be willing to bet that "issue" would come up in opposition to Ock's Raise the Viaduct plan. On a more transportation note, it could eliminate the connection to Water Street from the Lee Viaduct. So, make Bay 2 ways, at least extend the 2-way another block from Lee to Davis.
My take on the viaduct, is that it was originally built the way it was for a reason. That reason should be exposed and equally vetted along with the non-functional 80's idea of preserving a three block view corridor between the viaduct and the Acosta Bridge ramps. Whichever one makes the transportation network more viable and efficient should win out.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2010, 08:26:26 AM
My take on the viaduct, is that it was originally built the way it was for a reason. That reason should be exposed and equally vetted along with the non-functional 80's idea of preserving a three block view corridor between the viaduct and the Acosta Bridge ramps. Whichever one makes the transportation network more viable and efficient should win out.
lake..........I agree! Particularly your last sentence "Whichever one makes the transportation network more viable and efficient should win out"!
What blocks the view mostly is that godawful Federal Reserve fortress in front of it. The Fed is moving out (fewer checks to process) and it's going to be another vacant deteriorating building downtown.
The view looking straight down Water St to the front of the Terminal is one of the best views in the city. You can also see it from the corner of Hogan St and Water St pretty much unimpeded.
Bulldoze the Fed Bldg............chances of it being used by someone else, nil!
It looks like a middle school.
Captain Zissou............the more I look at it, the more I agree! No panache, no clean elements of design and it is not timeless and 5 years down range .....it will look like a Hokey Poky Dance Studio! This can not be the best that we can get for just a little money (60 Million for phase one) or is it! This allmost looks like something designed by committee rather than a single individual guiding things through! Infact this reminds me of the current Administration.........no vision and no plan!
when did an RFP get put out for this design?
Quote from: JaxNative68 on January 05, 2010, 02:24:52 PM
when did an RFP get put out for this design?
I believe this contract was given to one of JTA's General Consultants....the RFP for the GC contract was out several years ago.
the design drawings I saw had RS&H's logo on them. shouldn't this project be to large in value to be able to just hand it out? After all, it is taxpayer dollars supporting it.
RS&H is one of their General Consultants....while it is common for large jobs to be bid separately from GC contracts, it is by no means required....remember that the GC contracts were advertised and as long as the max. value on them isn't exceeded, it should be ok.
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 05, 2010, 12:32:41 PM
Bulldoze the Fed Bldg............chances of it being used by someone else, nil!
A bulldozer probably won't cut it. I watched them build that building for the Fed and it will probably take sticks of dynamite to bring it down. Thick reinforced walls make the building essentially one giant vault.
By the way, for many years, the Fed in Jax was second only to Miami, for branches handling currency in the U.S. Supposedly, due to all the drug dealing done by cash only (sorry, Visa not accepted here! :) ) in the State.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2010, 08:26:26 AM
My take on the viaduct, is that it was originally built the way it was for a reason. That reason should be exposed and equally vetted along with the non-functional 80's idea of preserving a three block view corridor between the viaduct and the Acosta Bridge ramps. Whichever one makes the transportation network more viable and efficient should win out.
I have an alternate for the Park/Lee street viaduct. Remove it entirely and redirect the Park Street traffic down either a Forest or Price Street connection into Myrtle Avenue. Upgrade Myrtle from Forest to Beaver and revitalize that avenue which, running along I-95, should be retail/commercial only anyway. Park Street through Brooklyn could then become more residential/local neighborhood in character.
There doesn't seem to be so much traffic on the existing viaduct to warrant a connection in its current location AND at Myrtle/Bay so it shouldn't be missed. If anything should go there, it should be a streetcar overpass over the tracks from Lee to Park which would fit in great with a properly designed intermodal center on the corner with Bay.
See for yourself:http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=bay+street,+jacksonville,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.223579,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bay+St,+Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida+32202&ll=30.325434,-81.672492&spn=0.013206,0.01929&t=h&z=16
Problem with this plan for Myrtle is that really low clearance "tunnel" under the rail yard. Nothing bigger that a pick up truck (and not a really big one) can get under it. Removing the tunnel, and making grade crossings that close to the eventual Amtrak station, and the very active freight yard to the west, is not a viable option - cars would sit for very long periods waiting to cross the multiple tracks.
Gentlemen......maybe we are just looking in the wrong direction! Doesn't the Prime Osburn allready have tracks beside it now? Why do we need to spend $60 Million Dollars on something that is allready in place? Don't the tracks which allready sit beside the Prime Osburn hook into what is available here in Jacksonville allready? The Civic Center wanta be could be reconfigured and overhauled for lots less then $60 Million Dollars.............and its allready there with tracks! Plenty of bus access on two sides so I have to ask just WTF!
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 05, 2010, 09:10:47 PM
Problem with this plan for Myrtle is that really low clearance "tunnel" under the rail yard. Nothing bigger that a pick up truck (and not a really big one) can get under it. Removing the tunnel, and making grade crossings that close to the eventual Amtrak station, and the very active freight yard to the west, is not a viable option - cars would sit for very long periods waiting to cross the multiple tracks.
Maybe the "underpass" could be lowered more as it would also need to be widened to handle traffic better. With better engineering today, I am sure they could drain the low spots with pumps or some other system allowing for the lower elevation. Not having to maintain or reconstruct the Park/Lee viaduct should allow for some investment at this spot.
I think the cost of reconstructing the Myrtle tunnel wider and deeper under an active rail yard, and the ongoing cost for pumps to keep it dry, and the cost of tearing down the Lee Street viaduct; will far exceed the cost of rebuilding the Lee Street viaduct to accommodate more trains passing below it. But that's just a SWAG - be interesting to have an engineer look at this.
Well looking at where the Prime Osburn sits at in relation to the old Federal Reserve Bldg.......talk about a no brainer..........both together could become the new Transportation Center. Right next door to each other and the Fed Bldg, if its built like a bank vault, would be hurricane proof and then some! I wonder if it has its own standby power system? If it does......an even better candidate by my standards......and would not cost $60 Million Dollars to retrofit! Fed bldg is more than big enough for the new transportation Center plus being a secure bldg would make it ideal for the traffic control system headquarters but hay what do I know...........I'm just one of many taxpayers!
Great Idea CS. This would interact with the skyway better, use an existing structure and not sprawl as much.
Thanks JeffreyS! Bus's would still be able to navigate on two sides of the Prime and three sides of the Fed Bldg! Access to the $kyway is assured and more than enough area to handle whatever BRT is programed for that area! Both structures could be used, with suitable upgrades, track is available for rail enhancement and I don't think that would cost $60 Million Dollars to do! Fed's might even be inline to deed the Fed Bldg at not cost or a write off scenerio for tax credits or incentives..............looks like a win win for Jacksonville, JTA and the taxpayers!
Hay tufsu1...............thought you would have tried to shoot me down in flames on this one! Makes sense and is cost effective and controls downtown sprawl, makes use of existing Buildings and still have room to grow within both bldgs! Not to mention rail access is allready in place, $kyway really close by, bus available, Hotels on other side of the River.......or CRT ......take your pick!
Consider letting the Fed building make do as an Amtrak station until the Convention Center issue is ultimately resolved. I know the building has space for rent based on a sign in front so, assuming the Fed isn't closing up altogether anytime soon (not sure we would want to lose them either), Amtrak sharing the site may be feasible.
Replace the Park/Lee viaduct with a shift to Park/Myrtle and create a single campus of the Fed building with the Prime Osborn stretching from Myrtle to Jefferson. That should be plenty of room to handle intermodal and orient it two blocks closer to Downtown and the RR tracks while freeing up the perfectly good "City blocks" being wasted in the plan currently proposed by JTA.
Back to the drawing boards! JTA can't do worse than the current mess. Can they? :o
Aerial of buildings: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=bay+street,+jacksonville,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.223579,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bay+St,+Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida+32202&t=h&ll=30.327712,-81.671666&spn=0.006603,0.009645&z=17
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2547724794_3bc5821016.jpg)
Map of the tunnel system in blue - minus at least 2 boarding concourses.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3169/2546901461_72266e5ac6.jpg)
Typical boarding concourse ramp/tunnel.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2547724880_f93872a863.jpg)
Dead End? This is the "Great Wall" that divides the old tunnels from the current PO site.
CHARLES, the tunnels do indeed exist from the FEC mainline to the Chain Link Fence just south of the PO. There are two concourse ramps intact which rise into the last remains of two platforms, which if these alone were refitted, would serve 4 tracks (besides FEC) which is more then what is on the JTA plan, but falls short of Commuter Rail Needs. Everything ends at the fence where they have put in a wall, but I suspect because this thing was built to withstand Million pound wet steam locomotives over the top, that they didn't collapse the remainder, rather they covered it, or removed the roof and back filled it. Either way, according to national contractors it would be EASY and fast to fix.
(http://inlinethumb25.webshots.com/26200/2764447700104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Looking west - southwest, note where the bridge reaches critical height to clear the first track.
(http://jacksonville.com/images/020705/59991_400.jpg)
Looking almost due east today, the big hall on the right half blocks about 1/2 of the track area.
STJR/CHARLES: While I agree that the LEE STREET VIADUCT should be rebuilt to clear the track area, it will NOT have to cut off the view down water street. Consider that the original viaduct reached critical height at a point due east of the southeast corner of the Terminal Building. Today the track area is 335' south of the south edge of Water Street and in the past it was only 140' south of the south edge of Water Street.
Another Concourse should be inches north of the WALL-FENCE and another a bit closer to the Prime. I have not engineered a way to look in and see the damage (if any) done on the other side of that damn wall, but I'm working on it! I fully expect it to be tunnel side walls, roof removed, back filled and paved over. Of course it would have been cheaper just to leave the top on it. BTW, you do know that the FDOT official that tried to shout me down at the meeting... "THE TUNNELS ARE GONE!!" told me "They had to remove those old tunnels so nobodies automobile would fall in them. I retorted, "Mr. those tunnels were built to carry over a million pounds and your telling me that you are worried about someones Volkswagen crashing through the roof? Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!
LAKE, I don't mind the adaptive reconstruction of the old buildings and features, in fact "old is really beautiful..." We really Don't build them like we used to, even if we had a bottomless bank account, I'm not sure the tradesmen and artisans could be found to do the job. The section of the Prime that you and I labeled the "Bus Concourse" that long round roof passage east-west is a good example IMO, of at least attempting to match the original building by saluting the arched windows, colors and at least some simulation of materials. This is why I wish we could get JTA to design the place to either match the 1898 station (WHICH I LOVE) including replacement of at least one more of it's towers, or the 1919 station keeping the 1898 building ruins as a great railroaders park.
CS, Using that Federal Building as a temporary station would just make too much sense. I doubt the Federal Government owns it though, it's probably a leased property built to order. If the Federal Government DOES own it, then the COJ could obtain it - probably FREE OF CHARGE, in a transfer program. I know they regularly do this in mass transit, if city "A" buys a train car then finds they don't need it, if they used federal money it can be transferred to another location free.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteCS, Using that Federal Building as a temporary station would just make too much sense. I doubt the Federal Government owns it though, it's probably a leased property built to order. If the Federal Government DOES own it, then the COJ could obtain it - probably FREE OF CHARGE, in a transfer program. I know they regularly do this in mass transit, if city "A" buys a train car then finds they don't need it, if they used federal money it can be transferred to another location free.
Ock, per the Duval County Appraiser, the Federal Reserve Bank owns its own building. About 143,000 sf of conditioned space and another about 75,000 sf in storage areas, loading docks, etc. on about 8 acres. Interestingly, the building is not exempt from property tax, maybe because of the special status of the Federal Reserve (?). Anyway, most years they seem to pay taking advantage of the early pay discounts but it doesn't look like it this year, so far. That's on a $400,000+ tax bill at 1% per month!QuoteFEDERAL RESERVE BANK
1. 800 WATER ST
2. P O BOX 929
3. JACKSONVILLE, FL 32231-0044
Primary Site Address
1. 800 WATER ST
2. Jacksonville FL 32204
Official Record Book/Page
04912-00978
Tile #
6414
800 WATER ST
http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0765651000
Cool STJR, now if we can just wake up the city and Amtrak, the Dog and La Cubana, and that strange state agency over at Myrtle and Bay, we're in business. Damn shame we can't assume control as a non-profit, city promoting, wild and woolly, do something, citizens group... Transportation Center INC., that has a ring to it.
Wonder if the fed has any tunnels under it? The city was once honeycombed with bank tunnels, but I've not located a source for their mapping or design. Maybe you or Lake can make a discovery?
HAVE ROPE AND HEADLAMPS - LOVE DARK HOLES IN THE GROUND!
The other thing is the floor plan inside the fed, anyone have a clue? That would make a huge difference in if or if not we could convert it. It does seem to have better parking then the old station.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, if you've been online searching for structural info on an operating Federal Reserve Bank, I'll bet you're gonna be on a few more "watch lists" than you already are.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on January 06, 2010, 06:50:26 PM
Ock, if you've been on line searching for structural info on an operating Federal Reserve Bank, I'll bet you're gonna be on a few more "watch lists" than you already are.
Ock...............I have to add same! Not sure how to go about it, but will give it a shot! If you saw it being built......were there columns on the floors? Thick walls don't mean much, but if it was a post tensioned cable structure, there would not be many columns or there maybe none at all! If there is none then flat floors, no columns, weight limit each floor would be substancial!
I haven't been in the current Federal Reserve Bank building here but did watch it get built. It is all concrete and heavy rebar and, based on how long it took to build, it was made to withstand any assault on it.
I did have the "pleasure" once of visiting the old branch, now the City's emergency operations center. That building, built in the 30's or 40's by my estimate, had a multistory hardened "core" that contained all the operations of the "bank". The interior entry door to the "core" was essentially a multi-foot thick bank vault door. The building guards stood with machine guns (this was over 35 years ago!) and the elevators where heavy steel plated. You could have had a shoot out in the elevator and no one would have known 8) . Armored trucks entered through an equally secured underground garage. No visitor moved about the building without an armed escort and under the watchful eyes of cameras everywhere.
Given that these buildings likely hold hundreds of millions or more in cash at a time, they are mini-Ft. Knoxes. As such, I am sure the current Fed building here can handle any new uses we come up with. ;) I have to say, I am surprised that the Feds are willing to share the facility by subleasing space in it but perhaps the current design segregates office space from the cash vault more completely (i.e. like two distinct buildings side by side).
As checks a phased out more and more, the Fed will and could vacate that building. One of my good friends was #3 in charge at the Fed and then moved to a local bank. They used to process millions of checks, and then outsourced the work to BofA who could do it for less than themselves. They could easily move to the old Fed building or even open up next to the FBI along Gate. Their building along the tracks was built with the Oklahoma Bombing standards for Fed buildings, it is built to withstand that kind of blast from outside.
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 06, 2010, 11:13:31 PM
As checks a phased out more and more, the Fed will and could vacate that building. One of my good friends was #3 in charge at the Fed and then moved to a local bank. They used to process millions of checks, and then outsourced the work to BofA who could do it for less than themselves. They could easily move to the old Fed building or even open up next to the FBI along Gate. Their building along the tracks was built with the Oklahoma Bombing standards for Fed buildings, it is built to withstand that kind of blast from outside.
Mtrain, per the City records, this building was completed in 1987. The Oklahoma City bombing was in 1995. That would take more foresight than I think even the Federal Reserve Bank's economists could muster. :D It is actually our Federal Courthouse that was built to post-OK City standards. If this building meets them, I think it would be a mere coincidence. They did add those "car-sized" concrete "planters" in front after OK City.
I don't see the Federal Reserve leaving this building since it was very expensively built to their unique specs unless they (1) leave Jax entirely or (2) completely abandon servicing currency (taking your word they no longer do any checks) here and only maintain an admin office of some sort.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on January 06, 2010, 06:50:26 PM
Ock, if you've been online searching for structural info on an operating Federal Reserve Bank, I'll bet you're gonna be on a few more "watch lists" than you already are.
Who me? I'm just an old hippie, expatriate, childhood moonshiner, pharmaceutical testing, Timothy Leary devotee, and unreconstructed Confederate, that had dinner with M-19 in an Andean Villa...
Why would anyone want to watch me?
OKC Bombing? Hell I got in on that too, though I was in the Post Office and we were able to walk out. We thought a fully armed B-1 from Tinker had splattered in front of us. The sensation was rather like someone picking up the building, smacking the walls against your ears and dropping you/it about 10 feet. Incredible. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stjr on January 06, 2010, 10:30:26 PM
Given that these buildings likely hold hundreds of millions or more in cash at a time, they are mini-Ft. Knoxes. As such, I am sure the current Fed building here can handle any new uses we come up with. ;) I have to say, I am surprised that the Feds are willing to share the facility by subleasing space in it but perhaps the current design segregates office space from the cash vault more completely (i.e. like two distinct buildings side by side).
STJR, I think this might be the very reason that we can't use it... Once the layout is known, if the planners can't make easy changes to fit standard transportation practices, then we would have yet another dysfunctional elephant downtown. There are LOTS of things that go into a station that the public doesn't have a clue about.
Example?
Both Union Station and the new Amtrak station have a clear concourse from the front door to the arrival/departure door, because good terminals NEVER send the crowds through the waiting room.
(Passenger Terminals and Trains by John Droege - 1916)
So we would have to map out the current building, decide which (if any) walls have to come down, or go up, then make a decision. OCKLAWAHA
QuoteMtrain, per the City records, this building was completed in 1987. The Oklahoma City bombing was in 1995. That would take more foresight than I think even the Federal Reserve Bank's economists could muster.
Whatever the dates, I am telling you, as having been on the tour and seen areas most have not, that building in front along the road, can withstand the OK city bomb blast and remain in tact. The folks who work in the building tell you this.
Go on the tour, check it out, look at 10 million dollars in cash, its an amazing thing to see. You seem to have an endless supply of time available, what is one more hour?
Based on the aerial showing some generous parking and undeveloped land around the building, and given the possible "split personality" of the building (based on part of it being available for sublease), I think it may be possible to leave the Federal Reserve in place and still build an Amtrak station behind it or in combo with a new parking deck and office/transportation center tower on the Fed's current east parking lot.
The bus, streetcar, and, while it continues, $ky-high-way facilities could be in the lot opposite on Water Street. JTA could build hotel/retail on the lot sitting in the split of the $ky-high-way rails leading from Bay to Riverside and Acosta Bridge and/or between Water and Bay Streets. All of this would be much more compact convenient, and visible, and also much more connected to Downtown activities and attractions (Riverwalk, T-U Center, office buildings, existing hotels, etc.) and even Riverside (via the via duct) and San Marco (via the Acosta Bridge).
Aerial of buildings: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=bay+street,+jacksonville,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.223579,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bay+St,+Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida+32202&t=h&ll=30.327712,-81.671666&spn=0.006603,0.009645&z=17
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 07, 2010, 12:01:21 AM
QuoteMtrain, per the City records, this building was completed in 1987. The Oklahoma City bombing was in 1995. That would take more foresight than I think even the Federal Reserve Bank's economists could muster.
Whatever the dates, I am telling you, as having been on the tour and seen areas most have not, that building in front along the road, can withstand the OK city bomb blast and remain in tact. The folks who work in the building tell you this.
Go on the tour, check it out, look at 10 million dollars in cash, its an amazing thing to see. You seem to have an endless supply of time available, what is one more hour?
Mtrain, I didn't say it couldn't withstand a blast (in fact, I inferred from the start it likely could). I merely pointed out that your timeline was not correct. No need to get huffy, now. Take a chill pill, get some rest, and let's start fresh again upon daylight. 8)
If the Fed Bldg is re-barred throughout, that would be even better than a post tensioned structure..........its is just a question of the will to do it! It's too bad MJ does not have a finger in this possibility! I am all for recycling Bldg's since they are allready there and if the Fed Bldg could be used..........why the heck not? Lets try and save another one and make use of what we have now, rather than building anew! Lots less then the $60 Million projected just for phase one! Plus the proposed Transportation Center will ultimately cost how much? Use that money to refurbish and renovate. We had that option with the Old Courhouse and Annex and did not use it...........$350 Million for the new Court House and who is gonna pay for it.......Johnny? Somehow I don't think so!
You know using the Fed building could connect the transportation center with the riverwalk. A very short walkway under the over passes no crosswalks needed. Mass transit directly attached to our best pedestrian feature.
JeffreyS...........looking at that Google Earth picture, it just fell into place! Hopefully someone with some connections into the power circle (tufsu.....here is your chance to shine big guy!) makes perfect sense to me and is much cheaper and has expansion possibitities including up! All we can do,for right now, is start a discussion about it and try to expand out from there!
Hey why not move the "Convention Center" into the old Fed Building? It's not like it wouldn't hold the crowds! LOL!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock.......make the Fed Bldg , the new Rail Center,along with the Prime Osburn. Let JTA buy the JEA Bldg by the new Courthouse, which is a steal @ only $11 Million Dollars and lets build a Convention Center on the Ship Yards property! After all of the money that has been wasted there and for $60 Million Dollars more(phase one) we should be able to address all issue's with the Prime Osburn and come up with something really marketable! Not to mention BRT should be able to move all visitors to Hyatt......I mean we can cover all the bases going that route from jobs,coventions,business yada yada! GOB Network could go into overtime sucking the lifes blood out of that picture.......I mean something for everyone here!
Hell with the mayors $23 Million in downtown toys, we could build a new convention center in "THE WORLDS LARGEST BUTLER BUILDING!"
OCKLAWAHA
Your right! Amazing is it not how we just keep coming up with money we supposedly don't have! I think the term would be called "Creative Book Keeping 101"! I get the distinct impression Johnny has a double set of books or he is shifting money around or he is borrowing and not telling anyone!
I wouldn't accuse our mayor of being the slightest bit dishonest... THAT would take some intelligence and he clearly is not qualified.
OCKLAWAHA
You are correct Ock...........I stand corrected!
I find it peculiar that in the last week the Mayor said residential is the key to revitalizing Downtown and then turns around and suggests we spend tens of millions for fixing Metro and Friendship parks and the riverwalks. I am all for that but only AFTER we have people living downtown.
We need to invest in amenities that Downtown RESIDENTS want to support a Downtown lifestyle. I have elaborated elsewhere on MJ as to what these would be but none of them are covered by this week's plan unless we plan to add playing fields, bike and walking paths, etc. to the existing parks while improving their connectivity to Downtown living areas.
stjr.............I agree! This is why I keep harping about no vision or no plan! The shotgun approach has not gotten us anywhere or done any one thing for the City as a whole! Certain things have been started and not finished and it has been the same thing over and over! With no clear cut vision of what should be, we are in essenece bandaiding everything and this is not how it should be. The Mayor just doesn't get it.....about much of anything not to mention the City darn sure is not being run like a business! If it was, we would have declared Chapter 11 long before now!
Quote from: stjr on January 08, 2010, 12:05:40 PM
We need to invest in amenities that Downtown RESIDENTS want to support a Downtown lifestyle.
As a downtown resident, I'm quite pleased to see the City spending money on the riverwalks and Metro Park....there are plenty of ballfields and courts in Springfield and San Marco to satisfy my needs.
If Peyton put even a small amount of that money into a fund to give incentives to new downtown businesses, then actively recruited something like "FRESH MARKET" and "FAMILY DOLLAR" and "OFFICE MAX" and 7 day a week restaurants, open all day and evenings... Junk the parking meters and consolidate the Transportation Ranch into a Transportation CENTER, we'd have to beat off the competitors for housing rentals or condo purchase with a stick. Then watch that waterfront bloom with the St. John, Brooklyn Park and The Shipyards suddenly coming back to life.
What do you expect from a mayor who can spend an entire evening in a pub without noticing its a gay bar? He's the only guy I ever saw that could fail an EEG Exam. Someone told me that as a kid, he used to push his little red wagon backwards by its tongue, always following it, and never got the hang of leading it.
OCKLAWAHA
really Ock?
remember the $ that was given to Vestcor originally...and the additionl $5 million in loan guarantees they are likely o get now.
I'm talking smaller businesses, smaller grants, just some perks to pull more residents toward the central city. If we REALLY wanted crowds downtown, we would take the Shipyards site and develop another Landing type property, only this one would be anchored by IKEA, Bass Pro+Marina, Mega Theater Group, Fresh Market, + smaller retail and such. Our main problem then would become parking and transit!
OCKLAWAHA
Someone asked me a question today that I could not answer. Maybe you guys can. Why do we need a "transportation center" now? It's not as if we have streetcars, buses, trains, airport shuttles all running and needing an interconnection point. Isn't there a bus and skyway express interconnection (Rosa Parks Center?) across the the FSCJ downtown campus? Did I miss something at the beginning of the thread?
Is this whole "center" thing just an excuse for JTA to build itself some new, fancy offices?
Good question Dog Walker! Part of it supposed to go for the Traffic Control end, that is those parts that are integrated in Intelligent Traffic System controlled at a Center to regulate yada yada! That could be anywhere to be honest and as to the rest of it............I have no freaking idea! I do know FHP would have a Headquarters there and JTA's Offices.....other than that your guess is as good as mine! I still say JTA can buy the JEA Headquarters downtown for a lousy $11 Million Dollars and all of that stuff could be under one roof! It would darn sure be lots cheaper than phase one at $60 Million and who the heck knows what all of the other phases will end up costing.......plus parking for all workers yada yada.........so the short answer is "YES"....new office's!
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 08, 2010, 02:47:41 PM
Quote from: stjr on January 08, 2010, 12:05:40 PM
We need to invest in amenities that Downtown RESIDENTS want to support a Downtown lifestyle.
As a downtown resident, I'm quite pleased to see the City spending money on the riverwalks and Metro Park....there are plenty of ballfields and courts in Springfield and San Marco to satisfy my needs.
Tufsu, great, but you are already Downtown and most people aren't. Not everyone has the same standards for amenities such as recreation. You may not desire more, but perhaps most of the 99.9% of people who DON'T live Downtown do. This is for them, not you.
From a safety and convenience standpoint, almost no one with kids is going to consider living somewhere where the kids can't essentially walk outside and within a couple of "safe" minutes be on a playground. So, either it has to be within walking distance or connected with a reliable, safe, and frequent transit system. We have neither.
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 08, 2010, 06:00:31 PM
Good question Dog Walker! Part of it supposed to go for the Traffic Control end, that is those parts that are integrated in Intelligent Traffic System controlled at a Center to regulate yada yada! That could be anywhere to be honest and as to the rest of it............I have no freaking idea! I do know FHP would have a Headquarters there and JTA's Offices.....
Didn't the Florida Highway Patrol build a new HQ on the Westside just a few years ago when they lost their previous facility underneath the Fuller Warren due to the bridge's replacement? Heck, I thought Florida was bankrupt! Why would they need a new facility already? As CS notes, with communications, most of these offices and control centers could be just about anywhere. JTA really wants a new office bad, don't they?
By the way, JTA is a transit agency that fails to perform. Why do they think they can venture into land development and perform any better than the low levels delivered in their own "area of expertise"? Ugggggh!
stjr.....I agree! Transportation Center is basically a new Headquarters for JTA! All of the other Agency's are secondary but bet they will have room! JTA wants new, poop on that, buy the JEA Bldg for sale downtown for $11 Million Dollars, renovate for lots less than $60 Million Dollars and shazam! New JTA Headquarters, Traffic Control Center and whatever else they need space for! Why waste Sixty Million Dollars when it could be used for other more important projects? I agree with the idea that JTA, as an Agency, has really failed to perform, yet we keep rubber stamping their Budget? Why are there not attainable goals or levels of efficiency incorperated into their operating scenerio? There needs to be something that measures just how well they are performing their basic function.......people moving! Besides if they have $60 Million available........why don't they build some shelters?
Quote from: CS Foltz on January 08, 2010, 06:26:25 PM
Besides if they have $60 Million available........why don't they build some shelters?
They are. Unfortunately, not bus shelters, but, instead, gold-plated "executive" shelters.
I can see it already, the nice, shiny, JTA sign atop their "tower", visible to all that heavy traffic on adjacent I-95. A daily boost to the egos of JTA. The "big shots"! No longer buried underneath I-95 in their Myrtle Avenue dungeons, invisible to nearly everyone.
stjr............Your right! That is what the so-called Transportation Center is all about " gold plated edifice!" I wish I could put a wrench into their plans.............like prove their Budget right down to the last penny but that won't ever happen.......Council just rubber stamps JTA's and JEA's Budget and away they go......wasting money left and right! They can't fool me I know just what the hell is going on...........just wish I could prove it!
Quote from: Dog Walker on January 08, 2010, 05:38:51 PM
Someone asked me a question today that I could not answer. Maybe you guys can. Why do we need a "transportation center" now? It's not as if we have streetcars, buses, trains, airport shuttles all running and needing an interconnection point. Isn't there a bus and skyway express interconnection (Rosa Parks Center?) across the the FSCJ downtown campus? Did I miss something at the beginning of the thread?
Is this whole "center" thing just an excuse for JTA to build itself some new, fancy offices?
It's a chicken and egg question, we can build new transit then when the situation becomes unmanegable we'll be forced into an expensive construction project. Or we can seize the day and get it over with.
You are correct that there is a Transit Center (a mini-hub) at the Rosa Parks AND at Kings Avenue, a completely haphazard one at Regency Square, and another with "Bus Stop" signs at the Avenues.
The Skyway was designed to have these in San Marco, 5-Points, Shand's, and the Stadium, true to form we quit in the middle - "Now we're getting BRT, and when it get's really full, we'll just slip rails under it and it's a train." The Transportation Ranch that JTA has designed, is supposed to be like the highly successful multi-modal centers going up around the world. If the design was right, it would cause transit ridership to surge because of connectivity with AMTRAK RAIL, SKYWAY and future STREETCAR, COMMUTER RAIL, BUS and BRT. But JTA needs some lessons:
If your planning BRT, then the few current routes that roughly follow the proposed BRT should start acting like BRT. PHASE IT IN - QUIT TALKING and start narrowing headways.
Long distance route equipment needs to change YESTERDAY. We need EAGLE 15's, MCI 4500's or other top of the line US made coaches. These routes, Cecil, OP, Mandarin, PVB, Mayport etc.. should be running with motor coaches and NOT buses. Provide a deluxe service and draw a deluxe passenger base of choice riders.
GET A RAIL GUY...
Sorry stjr, but quit making people in some of the most popular stops stand in puddles, or wait by the tree, or stand in the rain. AUDIT these routes and AUDIT the times different stops spring to life. For example a stop in front of one of our many small tech colleges may sit empty all day, then at 2:10 pm it explodes with 20 riders.
Become PRO-ACTIVE in supporting Transit and putting new concepts in place... .25 cent Sundays, or fare free days, fun things like red carpets, rider miles good in local restaurants... the list is endless.
Get fare collection OUT OF THE BUSES.
INSTRUCT ALL DRIVERS, that JTA will be a benevolent institution... There will be NO MORE instances of "GET OFF THE BUS" unless a passenger is violent, drunk or stoned and NEVER over fare issues. Lost passengers, children etc will be carried FREE whenever there is a dispute or safety factor.
Figure out what free transfers are and USE THEM.
Trust me, we won't lose passengers or revenue, we'll build a legacy system - the pride of Jacksonville. OCKLAWAHA
The origin of the Transportation Center goes back to the HSR proposal from 2000....voters approved the project, requiring it to be under construction within a few years....Gov. Jeb said it would bankrupt the state, and with his backing, the voters reversed course in 2004.
But funds had already been appropriated for HSR....a portion of those funds were redirected to planning and design for intermodal centers in Miami, Orlando, Tampa, and Jax....the first of these, the Miami Intermodal Center (MIC) is currently under construction.
Personally I thinkit is RS&H's president Leary's old high school friendship with the Mayor stirring up old dead projects to help out his firm in a bad economy. The whole city contract RS&H has is a sham. It is similar to the other sham of the Mayor pulling the first courthouse design-build contract so he could give it to a struggling friend, aka the president of Auchter. We see how well that worked out. The GOB is still alive and strong in Jax!
QuoteSorry stjr, but quit making people in some of the most popular stops stand in puddles, or wait by the tree, or stand in the rain.
Ock, we had a whole thread on bus shelters, so you should well know, the issue with me and most others, was never about having shelters, just how they got paid. If JTA can round up $60 million for new executive digs, they could and should have FIRST funded bus shelters for their CUSTOMERS where there might be a much better return on investment. Doing so would have avoided the entire debate over advertising to support the shelters and the risk of opening the doors to the return of billboards.
We need more accuracy and precision on MJ when representing each others opinions. Please!
Invest in the public user? What? Come on now, this is Jacksonville, where the leaders of public interest group invest in themselves first. Then and only then do they think of the public user groups.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 08, 2010, 10:20:49 PM
The origin of the Transportation Center goes back to the HSR proposal from 2000....voters approved the project, requiring it to be under construction within a few years....Gov. Jeb said it would bankrupt the state, and with his backing, the voters reversed course in 2004.
But funds had already been appropriated for HSR....a portion of those funds were redirected to planning and design for intermodal centers in Miami, Orlando, Tampa, and Jax....the first of these, the Miami Intermodal Center (MIC) is currently under construction.
Actually it doesn't TU, the JTC goes back to 1986, when the USDOT published a report on national rail needs for multimodal centers. I recall having it and it laid out that Jacksonville would need 12 tracks when the advance plans came about... That study is I believe what got the ball rolling in Florida and all across the country. I am still searching for an original of it, I've tried online at just about every combination of key words known to Transportation but can't find it... IT WAS ONLINE a few years ago. Anyway, I wanted to share it with you and the MJ team.
JaxNative68, awww shucks, I just let myself get carried away. As for the GOB being STRONG in Jacksonville, that might be true, but he sure the hell has shrunk.
stjr, take your medicine... Geeze Louise! I will continue to support ANY legal method that allows for new transit shelters. The damn things are expensive and the generic ones are damn ugly. For very little more we could have micro-stations that would blow your socks off, but it would require some sort of sponsors, Ad's or otherwise. The new ones on MUNI in San Francisco, have built in WIFI, all one does is log into MUNI... HELLO JTA? ANYBODY HOME? New's tickers on commuter coaches? Those come with advertisement's or did y'all know that? Your WIFI network that welcomes a host of JAX movers and shakers online each day can also carry ad's, promotions, schedules, JTA facts, etc. Just hit the red IMAGINE button on your dash.
OCKLAWAHA
According to Railway Age there is movement in the passenger rail business:
http://www.railwayage.com/breaking-news/passenger-railcar-deliveries-at-eight-year-high.html
Quote from: JaxNative68 on January 08, 2010, 11:10:04 PM
Personally I thinkit is RS&H's president Leary's old high school friendship with the Mayor stirring up old dead projects to help out his firm in a bad economy. The whole city contract RS&H has is a sham. It is similar to the other sham of the Mayor pulling the first courthouse design-build contract so he could give it to a struggling friend, aka the president of Auchter. We see how well that worked out. The GOB is still alive and strong in Jax!
think what you want...but RS&H has been working in the Transportation Center since at least 2005...back when the architecture/engineering firms weren't exactly struggling.
Ock...I'm sure you arfe right...but the current effort started in 2005 using the HSR money as per Jeb.
This thing is kinda ugly, but more importantly, it seems impractical. Is it too late to fight this one? If it's not, we need to force them into scrapping this and trying again.
kells904..........we have been around and around on this one! Too much money, location issue's and not to say the least, other Bldg's could do the job at a lot cheaper price. Reduce the urban sprawl and recycle Bldgs that would be suited for what is planned..........IE Federal Bldg would be a better choice but JTA is bound and determined to go with new.........that is not necessary!
Does the Federal Reserve know you want to use their building for JTA? It's "availability" was based on someone's speculation that because there are fewer checks being used, the Fed will abandon the building. Is there any indication from the Federal Reserve that they might be shutting branches? Also, I assume there are vaults and "hardened" areas inside - how practical would it be to modify this building that isn't available? How much would that cost?
Regarding the old JEA Building - wouldn't fiscal conservatives scream (including several here) about JTA buying a 19 story building, then renovating it (I bet there is asbestos out the wazoo, it was built in the 1950s) when they only need 4 - that's all they are building at the Transportation Center. It seems obvious, the City doesn't need the office space, or they would have had the ability to take it before JEA sold it a few years ago.
Charles........the Fed Bldg has signs saying "Office space for Lease" so the Fed will still have some business being conducted site or they may be thinking of moving. Since there is "For Lease" signs outside I would think that there is room for JTA to set up shop. Hardened Building would be ideal for the ITS system, hurricane proof and controled entrances. Besides if they only need 4 floors and wanted to go to the old JEA Bldg, long term lease! Still cheaper than spending $60 Million to eat up real estate and we are recycling exsiting Bldgs and doing our part to slow urban sprawl! As to why the City did not buy that Bldg, thats simple..........none of the GOB's would be able to drain our pockets and make some more money to line their pockets! Anything can be modified within reason or renovated...........I mean look at the Prime Osburn!
hmmm ... I wouldn't use the Prime Osborn as a prime example of a good renovation, CS! :)
Someone should call that number and ask what they are leasing. How many square feet are they leasing? Maybe it is only a sandwich shop?
I agree Mr Charles............Prime is not a glaring good example of much of anything other than lining GOB's pockets at our expense! Not built for and too small, ill-located...........and on & on to be a Convention Center! That is something that should be a "Transportation Center" and I mean that building in particular. JTA does not need to spend $60 Million Dollars (Phase one only) for something new and exciting? This is something for some of those consultants to pick up on............like tufsu1 who appears to be hardwired into the system. I mean I could call.......infact I think I will. I need to go downtown on Tuesday and that is not out of the way too much!
If your down there Tuesday, and some slimy fat giant slithers out of the storm drain near the depot, FEAR NOT! it's just me, crawling around under Jacksonville. Who knows, maybe I'll see you?
OCKLAWAHA
Who knows..............you just might Ock!
I just really want them to put the skyway togather at least we would not have to wait on the bus for 45 mins or more
But the new "Transportation Center will cure the bus wait right? While you stand in the rain of course!
what makes you think the new center is getting built CS?
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2010, 08:25:09 AM
what makes you think the new center is getting built CS?
JTA says so? Why would anyone not believe JTA? ;)
Well in John McCain's back yard, "where Anti-Rail is born", the highway boys told Phoenix how many auto's they could buy for the cost of the LRT system...
Judging from our take on transit, if Jacksonville followed that same Republican advice, we'd buy Pogo Sticks and the rest would vanish into a fog of sulfur smoke.
OCKLAWAHA
how long would it take to pogo stick from the beach to downtown? i'd be the most inshape person in Jax as opposed to the fat out of shape individual that i am.