A Closer Look at the Transportation Center

[stjr]

Bulldoze the Fed Bldg............chances of it being used by someone else, nil!

A bulldozer probably won't cut it.  I watched them build that building for the Fed and it will probably take sticks of dynamite to bring it down.  Thick reinforced walls make the building essentially one giant vault.

By the way, for many years, the Fed in Jax was second only to Miami, for branches handling currency in the U.S.  Supposedly, due to all the drug dealing done by cash only (sorry, Visa not accepted here! ) in the State.

[stjr]

My take on the viaduct, is that it was originally built the way it was for a reason.  That reason should be exposed and equally vetted along with the non-functional 80's idea of preserving a three block view corridor between the viaduct and the Acosta Bridge ramps.  Whichever one makes the transportation network more viable and efficient should win out.

I have an alternate for the Park/Lee street viaduct.  Remove it entirely and redirect the Park Street traffic down either a Forest or Price Street connection into Myrtle Avenue.  Upgrade Myrtle from Forest to Beaver and revitalize that avenue which, running along I-95, should be retail/commercial only anyway.  Park Street through Brooklyn could then become more residential/local neighborhood in character.

There doesn't seem to be so much traffic on the existing viaduct to warrant a connection in its current location AND at Myrtle/Bay so it shouldn't be missed.  If anything should go there, it should be a streetcar overpass over the tracks from Lee to Park which would fit in great with a properly designed intermodal center on the corner with Bay.

See for yourself:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=bay+street,+jacksonville,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.223579,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bay+St,+Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida+32202&ll=30.325434,-81.672492&spn=0.013206,0.01929&t=h&z=16

[Charles Hunter]

Problem with this plan for Myrtle is that really low clearance "tunnel" under the rail yard.  Nothing bigger that a pick up truck (and not a really big one) can get under it.  Removing the tunnel, and making grade crossings that close to the eventual Amtrak station, and the very active freight yard to the west, is not a viable option - cars would sit for very long periods waiting to cross the multiple tracks.

[CS Foltz]

Gentlemen......maybe we are just looking in the wrong direction! Doesn't the Prime Osburn allready have tracks beside it now? Why do we need to spend $60 Million Dollars on something that is allready in place? Don't the tracks which allready sit beside the Prime Osburn hook into what is available here in Jacksonville allready? The Civic Center wanta be could be reconfigured and overhauled for lots less then $60 Million Dollars.............and its allready there with tracks! Plenty of bus access on two sides so I have to ask just WTF!

[stjr]

Problem with this plan for Myrtle is that really low clearance "tunnel" under the rail yard.  Nothing bigger that a pick up truck (and not a really big one) can get under it.  Removing the tunnel, and making grade crossings that close to the eventual Amtrak station, and the very active freight yard to the west, is not a viable option - cars would sit for very long periods waiting to cross the multiple tracks.

Maybe the "underpass" could be lowered more as it would also need to be widened to handle traffic better.  With better engineering today, I am sure they could drain the low spots with pumps or some other system allowing for the lower elevation.  Not having to maintain or reconstruct the Park/Lee viaduct should allow for some investment at this spot.

[Charles Hunter]

I think the cost of reconstructing the Myrtle tunnel wider and deeper under an active rail yard, and the ongoing cost for pumps to keep it dry, and the cost of tearing down the Lee Street viaduct; will far exceed the cost of rebuilding the Lee Street viaduct to accommodate more trains passing below it.  But that's just a SWAG - be interesting to have an engineer look at this.

[CS Foltz]

Well looking at where the Prime Osburn sits at in relation to the old Federal Reserve Bldg.......talk about a no brainer..........both together could become the new Transportation Center. Right next door to each other and the  Fed Bldg, if its built like a bank vault, would be hurricane proof and then some! I wonder if it has its own standby power system? If it does......an even better candidate by my standards......and would not cost $60 Million Dollars to retrofit! Fed bldg is more than big enough for the new transportation Center plus being a secure bldg would make it ideal for the traffic control system headquarters but hay what do I know...........I'm just one of many taxpayers!

[JeffreyS]

Great Idea CS. This would interact with the skyway better, use an existing structure and not sprawl as much.

[CS Foltz]

Thanks JeffreyS! Bus's would still be able to navigate on two sides of the Prime and three sides of the Fed Bldg! Access to the $kyway is assured and more than enough area to handle whatever BRT is programed for that area! Both structures could be used, with suitable upgrades, track is available for rail enhancement and I don't think that would cost $60 Million Dollars to do! Fed's might even be inline to deed the Fed Bldg at not cost or a write off scenerio for tax credits or incentives..............looks like a win win for Jacksonville, JTA and the taxpayers!

[CS Foltz]

Hay tufsu1...............thought you would have tried to shoot me down in flames on this one! Makes sense and is cost effective and controls downtown sprawl, makes use of existing Buildings and still have room to grow within both bldgs! Not to mention rail access is allready in place, $kyway really close by, bus available, Hotels on other side of the River.......or CRT ......take your pick!

[stjr]

Consider letting the Fed building make do as an Amtrak station until the Convention Center issue is ultimately resolved.  I know the building has space for rent based on a sign in front so, assuming the Fed isn't closing up altogether anytime soon (not sure we would want to lose them either), Amtrak sharing the site may be feasible.

Replace the Park/Lee viaduct with a shift to Park/Myrtle and create a single campus of the Fed building with the Prime Osborn stretching from Myrtle to Jefferson.  That should be plenty of room to handle intermodal and orient it two blocks closer to Downtown and the RR tracks while freeing up the perfectly good "City blocks" being wasted in the plan currently proposed by JTA.

Back to the drawing boards!  JTA can't do worse than the current mess.  Can they?  

Aerial of buildings: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=bay+street,+jacksonville,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=49.223579,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bay+St,+Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida+32202&t=h&ll=30.327712,-81.671666&spn=0.006603,0.009645&z=17

[Ocklawaha]

Map of the tunnel system in blue - minus at least 2 boarding concourses.


Typical boarding concourse ramp/tunnel.


Dead End? This is the "Great Wall" that divides the old tunnels from the current PO site.


CHARLES, the tunnels do indeed exist from the FEC mainline to the Chain Link Fence just south of the PO. There are two concourse ramps intact which rise into the last remains of two platforms, which if these alone were refitted, would serve 4 tracks (besides FEC) which is more then what is on the JTA plan, but falls short of Commuter Rail Needs. Everything ends at the fence where they have put in a wall, but I suspect because this thing was built to withstand Million pound wet steam locomotives over the top, that they didn't collapse the remainder, rather they covered it, or removed the roof and back filled it. Either way, according to national contractors it would be EASY and fast to fix.


Looking west - southwest, note where the bridge reaches critical height to clear the first track.


Looking almost due east today, the big hall on the right half blocks about 1/2 of the track area.


STJR/CHARLES: While I agree that the LEE STREET VIADUCT should be rebuilt to clear the track area, it will NOT have to cut off the view down water street. Consider that the original viaduct reached critical height at a point due east of the southeast corner of the Terminal Building. Today the track area is 335' south of the south edge of Water Street and in the past it was only 140' south of the south edge of Water Street.

Another Concourse should be inches north of the WALL-FENCE and another a bit closer to the Prime. I have not engineered a way to look in and see the damage (if any) done on the other side of that damn wall, but I'm working on it!  I fully expect it to be tunnel side walls, roof removed, back filled and paved over. Of course it would have been cheaper just to leave the top on it. BTW, you do know that the FDOT official that tried to shout me down at the meeting... "THE TUNNELS ARE GONE!!" told me "They had to remove those old tunnels so nobodies automobile would fall in them. I retorted, "Mr. those tunnels were built to carry over a million pounds and your telling me that you are worried about someones Volkswagen crashing through the roof? Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!

LAKE, I don't mind the adaptive reconstruction of the old buildings and features, in fact "old is really beautiful..." We really Don't build them like we used to, even if we had a bottomless bank account, I'm not sure the tradesmen and artisans could be found to do the job. The section of the Prime that you and I labeled the "Bus Concourse" that long round roof passage east-west is a good example IMO, of at least attempting to match the original building by saluting the arched windows, colors and at least some simulation of materials. This is why I wish we could get JTA to design the place to either match the 1898 station (WHICH I LOVE) including replacement of at least one more of it's towers, or the 1919 station keeping the 1898 building ruins as a great railroaders park.

CS, Using that Federal Building as a temporary station would just make too much sense. I doubt the Federal Government owns it though, it's probably a leased property built to order. If the Federal Government DOES own it, then the COJ could obtain it - probably FREE OF CHARGE, in a transfer program. I know they regularly do this in mass transit, if city "A" buys a train car then finds they don't need it, if they used federal money it can be transferred to another location free.


OCKLAWAHA

[stjr]

CS, Using that Federal Building as a temporary station would just make too much sense. I doubt the Federal Government owns it though, it's probably a leased property built to order. If the Federal Government DOES own it, then the COJ could obtain it - probably FREE OF CHARGE, in a transfer program. I know they regularly do this in mass transit, if city "A" buys a train car then finds they don't need it, if they used federal money it can be transferred to another location free.

Ock, per the Duval County Appraiser, the Federal Reserve Bank owns its own building.  About 143,000 sf of conditioned space and another about 75,000 sf in storage areas, loading docks, etc. on about 8 acres.  Interestingly, the building is not exempt from property tax, maybe because of the special status of the Federal Reserve (?).  Anyway, most years they seem to pay taking advantage of the early pay discounts but it doesn't look like it this year, so far.  That's on a $400,000+ tax bill at 1% per month!

FEDERAL RESERVE BANK

  1. 800 WATER ST
  2. P O BOX 929
  3. JACKSONVILLE, FL 32231-0044

Primary Site Address

  1. 800 WATER ST
  2. Jacksonville FL 32204

Official Record Book/Page
04912-00978
Tile #
6414
800 WATER ST

http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0765651000

[Ocklawaha]

Cool STJR, now if we can just wake up the city and Amtrak, the Dog and La Cubana, and that strange state agency over at Myrtle and Bay, we're in business. Damn shame we can't assume control as a non-profit, city promoting, wild and woolly, do something, citizens group... Transportation Center INC., that has a ring to it.

Wonder if the fed has any tunnels under it? The city was once honeycombed with bank tunnels, but I've not located a source for their mapping or design. Maybe you or Lake can make a discovery?
HAVE ROPE AND HEADLAMPS - LOVE DARK HOLES IN THE GROUND!

The other thing is the floor plan inside the fed, anyone have a clue? That would make a huge difference in if or if not we could convert it. It does seem to have better parking then the old station.

OCKLAWAHA

[urbanlibertarian]

Ock, if you've been online searching for structural info on an operating Federal Reserve Bank, I'll bet you're gonna be on a few more "watch lists" than you already are.