Metro Jacksonville

High Speed Rail: A No-Brainer
The Transformation of Transportation
By Chris Nelder
Friday, October 2nd, 2009

"'Boondoggle‘, 'Loss-making whim‘, ‘Monument to bad territorial planning'. . .

Such are the arguments of high speed rail critics, as the United States finally gets on board the passenger rail revolution that is sweeping the world.

But that quote wasn't about the U.S., and it wasn't about today's debate.

It came from an essay by José Blanco López, Spain's minister of transport and public works, which was published in a new pamphlet from SERA, a sustainability activist organization within the government Labour party. He was talking about the two decades of opposition that conservatives had mounted against the country's progress in building a high speed rail system.



Starting with a line from Madrid to Seville in 1989, Spain pursued an aggressive and determined commitment to high speed rail that, by 2012, will produce the longest system in Europe. This year alone, most of the country's â,¬19 billion development budget will be invested in high speed rail. By 2020, López says, more than 90% of the country's total population will be within 31 miles of a high speed train station.

Here he put his country's achievement in perspective:

Shielded behind overly simple, short sighted cost-benefit analysis, critics complained with those arguments against high speed projects over years, until the success of each one of the new corridors proved them wrong and showed that in troubled economic times, the best investments for a society are the ones which improve equality.

History has proved rail's critics wrong in Spain, as economic development and rider enthusiasm followed it everywhere it went.

Cretinous Shortsightedness
Even so, ever unwilling to learn from the successes of the rest of the world, the U.S. is now starting the same effort at about the same place as Spain was 20 years ago.

The president of the U.S. High Speed Rail Association, Andy Kunz, appeared on Fox Business last Friday to make his pitch. And what argument did the show's overcoiffed co-host raise? "Amtrak has been in the red for years and years and years, and nobody in charge over there seems to be able to turn a profit, despite the fact that everybody I know takes the train from New York to Washington D.C., the Acela. It's just not working though financially," she whined.

After Kunz explained that that the Acela leg (with a maximum speed of only about 100 mph) was in fact profitable, and that the rest of the system needed to be upgraded so that it was equally attractive and profitable and capable of speeds over 200 mph, the host pressed on: "How do you get people to ride it?" Kunz patiently explained his point again, and pointed out that when Europe opened its new high speed lines, they filled up with riders immediately. The hosts then tossed off a quick wisecrack about the Chunnel and muttered about the need for profitability, but assured the audience that "Nobody more than Fox Business wants to see new ventures succeed."

Be that as it may, one wonders why Europe's success would not convince them that high speed rail would be a good thing for this country. A projection from rail proponents FourBillion.com indicates that building the 9,000 miles of high speed corridors identified by the U.S. Department of Transportation would create 4.5 million permanent jobs and 1.6 million construction jobs, save 125 million barrels of oil, eliminate 20 million pounds of CO2 per mile per year, reinvigorate U.S. manufacturing, and generate $23 billion in economic benefits in the Midwest alone â€" all alongside a long list of intangible side benefits.

Putting aside the cretinous shortsightedness and obstinacy of conservative media, let's take a look at what the rest of the world is doing.

A Global High Speed Rail Explosion
The UK's Labour party is also pursuing an expansion of high speed rail, having commissioned a study on building a new line from London to the West Midlands and extensions to the north. Currently, Britain has only one high speed line, the 69-mile-long "High Speed 1" link from London to the aforementioned Channel Tunnel ("Chunnel") to France. The Tories have offered their own £15.6 billion plan, so it seems likely that Britain will soon have a new high speed project.

France, as I mentioned last year, already has the wonderful 200 mph high speed TGV network, with 1,100 miles of track, more than 400 trains and the third-highest ranking of rail passengers per year, behind Switzerland and Japan. Personally, I found it to be the most enjoyable travel experience I have ever had.


Bombardier's ZEFIRO 380

This week, the Chinese government awarded a $4 billion contract to build 80 high speed (236 mph maximum) electric train sets for the new 3,700-mile-long high speed train network it is building. Half of the contract went to Bombardier Sifang, a Chinese joint venture with Berlin-based rail giant Bombardier Transportation (TSE: BBD.A). The company will begin delivering the trains in 2012 and finish by 2014â€" boom, done.

Bombardier is already building 20 sleeper trains for China and another 20 passenger trains, in addition to the 500 high-power electric freight locomotives that it contracted to build for China in 2007.

Russia is taking the plunge into high speed rail as well, spending nearly $1.5 billion to upgrade 401 miles of track between Moscow and downtown St. Petersburg, and buy eight electric Sapsan trains made by German conglomerate Siemens (ETR: SIE) with a top operating speed of 217 mph. Four runs a day will make the trip in less than four hours, compared with an average five hours to make the trip by airplane, including the time wasted getting to and from the airport and running the check-in and security gauntlets.

Meanwhile, Back in the States. . .

Calling the U.S. "a developing country in terms of rail," a Siemens representative told the New York Times last week that his company was a candidate for a proposed high speed link between San Francisco and Los Angeles, along with Bombardier and Japanese bullet train manufacturer Hitachi.

SCNF, the French company that runs the TGV network, has submitted its own plan to the U.S. Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) for four 220 mph corridors in California, Florida, Texas, and the Chicago-Midwest area. The company believes it could open the first line from Milwaukee to Detroit by 2018 and be in full operation by 2023. The costs would be recouped quickly, according to SNCF, returning triple the $69 billion cost of the Midwest corridor within 15 years in environmental and other benefits.

All Costs Considered
Building America's high speed rail network will be expensive â€" about that, there is no disagreement. The $8 billion appropriated for high speed rail in the stimulus plan was dwarfed by the $103 billion in applications the FRA received for the funds, and is a small fraction of what the total network will cost. The California run alone will probably cost over $40 billion to construct, and that's after the state's existing commitments to building support networks and light rail links.

On the other hand, as the director of the BART light rail system pointed out this week in his testimony to San Francisco city supervisors with the city's Peak Oil Preparedness Task Force, the U.S. currently spends as much on parking as it does on national defense. I haven't run the numbers, but it seems within reason that if that is the case, spending that money instead on high speed and light rail would cover a very large part of the total cost.

Indeed, all of the cost arguments I have heard against rail are incomplete and wrong.

The true costs of remaining committed to our current road and air infrastructure are never taken into full account. . . like the health care costs of polluted air; the cost of continuously maintaining roads, bridges and tunnels; the availability of materials (remember, several cities in America literally could not buy asphalt during the oil frenzy of last year, because refiners were cracking every last lighter molecule they could from the crude); the trillions of dollars we are spending on oil imports and defense operations in oil producing regions of the world; the billions' worth of damage that our current ways do to the environment; the insurance costs of keeping up 240 million cars and light trucks; the damage and death that those millions of drivers cause; and so on, ad infinitum.

Rail is cheaper, safer, and better on every single count.

When the boundaries are properly defined, the entire transformation of transportation from liquid fuels to renewable electricity would create millions of permanent jobs, and could probably pay for itself.

But the cost isn't really the point anyway.

The Future: A No-Fly Zone
America still has no energy plan, let alone a plan to address the looming threat of peak oil. With the decline of global oil production starting around 2012 already "baked in," due to a lack of sufficient oil megaprojects, we desperately need to start making tracks toward a high speed rail infrastructure. . . or face a painful future of fuel shortages and economic dislocation (at best).

No part of our transportation system is as vulnerable to volatile fuel prices as the airline industry. It was built on the expectation that oil would rarely cost more than $40 a barrel, and it is completely dead if oil stays over $100 a barrel. Last year's oil price spikes put many smaller carriers out of business and cost the major carriers billions. .

For my money, the airline industry may as well be dead. Not just because of the damage that oil price volatility has done and will continue to do â€" and not just because the experience of air travel has become a painful routine of delays and personal insults â€" but because it's so inferior in every way to high speed rail travel for distances under 500 miles. The TGV line from Paris and Lyons virtually eliminated air travel between those cities, and the high speed line from Madrid to Barcelona cut air travel in half in the first year of its operation.

As I have explained in this column over the last several years, we simply cannot replace enough gasoline- and diesel-burning cars with ones that run on electricity to address the peak oil challenge in the time we have left.

Like compressed natural gas vehicles, PHEVs and EVs are "silver BBs" that will help cushion the blow, but in the long term and for the majority of miles traveled, rail is truly the only answer. Rail is by far the cheapest and most fuel-efficient form of transport, requiring about a third less fuel than air for personal travel, and as little as 3% of the energy for freight.

The serious pursuit of high speed rail would also make a real and significant dent in CO2 emissions, and enable part of the urgent transformation we must accomplish from liquid fuels to renewably generated electricity. As Lord Andrew Adonis, Britain's transport secretary, put it in the SERA publication: "High speed rail is now pretty well a ‘no-brainer' transport strategy for the 21st century."

The rest of the world is already kicking our butts in deploying renewable energy. China is running circles around us in long term resource planning and buying up every hard asset under the sun. And compared with the rest of the developed (and developing) world, we're bringing up the rear in rail.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

It's Go Time
If you've watched any of the new Ken Burns series on America's national parks, you know that protecting the common good has always been a struggle against vested interests and conservatives resistant to change. It took strong-willed men of vision like Teddy Roosevelt, John Muir, and Stephen Mather to override the opposition and do the right thing for the future. We need that kind of leadership now.

If I were President Obama, I would direct the Department of Transportation to immediately begin transforming America's infrastructure to one based on electric rail, regardless of the long-term cost, starting with the highest potential traffic and fuel savings and working our way down the list from there. I would do as the French did when they created the TGV: Declare eminent domain and lay in the high speed rails where they make the most sense. I would restrict federal funding for roads and bridges to critical maintenance projects where rail can't take over the load in time â€" with not a penny more spent on new car-based infrastructure. I would forbid any subsidies for cars and trucks with a fuel economy of less than 30 mpg. I would move all subsidies for fossil fuels into renewable energy â€" then double or triple them â€" to ensure that we can run that new electric infrastructure cleanly. I would bind Congress to my purpose and ride roughshod over the objectors, making it my number-one priority.

I know it may seem hard to believe, with oil holding steady around $70 and gasoline around $3. . . but if you haven't studied the data, then take the word of a guy who has: We're in serious trouble, folks. The Armageddon of transportation is dead ahead and we need to move aggressively and determinedly to head off the peak oil challenge. Rail is hands-down our best and biggest shot.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/high-speed-rail-a-no-brainer/964#

The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda. I love the idea of hogh speed rail; Specifically at the level of 125 MPH and above. This does not mean that HSR MCO-Tampa is a good starting point. The more I consider it, the more it looks to serve the purpose of trasnferring Orlado area attraction attendees to Tampa area attraction attendees. (e.g. Universal/Disney-Busch Gardens) I agree that is makes a lovely showpiece.

Add in the occasional Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan travelling from ORL-Tampa. Do you believe there will be a significant residential base that will utilize this system? If so, why?

500 miles or less seems reasonable to me......think I would extend that out to 800 miles but thats just me. Anything longer than that or across the pond should be aircraft but to that mark, HSR is more than adequate and if quick enough probably better.

I love the idea of HSR throughout the country. I just wish we were not trying to build one in Central Florida that bypasses Orlando. The current model is airport to Disney to Tampa. Note Disney has now handed down in it's benevolence that the state might be permitted to have a stop at the convention center. I will throw my support to the SEHSR which includes Jacksonville in it's plans.

Quote from: buckethead on October 03, 2009, 07:13:28 AM
The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda.

Or pure inspiration. Depending on how you look at it.

I prefer to look at it in terms of OPPORTUNITY.

Unless, you look at why things went wrong in the US, in large part because conservatives in leadership generally loathe paying for public transport ( another form of social welfare), you cannot possible elect and have people in leadership positions who will be consistent and effective at pushing for rail.

It's like the AA states, you have to admit the problem before you can do something about it.

It's not surprising to see Jax leadership have very little interest in rail,......the city is Republican run.

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 03, 2009, 10:58:23 AM

Quote from: buckethead on October 03, 2009, 07:13:28 AM
The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda.

Or pure inspiration. Depending on how you look at it.

I prefer to look at it in terms of OPPORTUNITY.

Unless, you look at why things went wrong in the US, in large part because conservatives in leadership generally loathe paying for public transport ( another form of social welfare), you cannot possible elect and have people in leadership positions who will be consistent and effective at pushing for rail.

It's like the AA states, you have to admit the problem before you can do something about it.

It's not surprising to see Jax leadership have very little interest in rail,......the city is Republican run.

Quote from: buckethead on October 03, 2009, 07:13:28 AM
Add in the occasional Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan travelling from ORL-Tampa. Do you believe there will be a significant residential base that will utilize this system? If so, why?

I understand the dysfunction of our elected officials as a whole, as well as within each party.

Thanks for the commentary on that. Would you care to comment on the question I asked?

It was not rhetorical, mean or incendiary. Just looking for clarity. I could still vote for you despite any differences of opinion if you prove to be as capable a debater and advocate for responsible government as you have proved to be at c&p.

Quote from: buckethead on October 03, 2009, 01:57:03 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 03, 2009, 10:58:23 AM

Quote from: buckethead on October 03, 2009, 07:13:28 AM
The article you present has the earmarks of pure propaganda.

Or pure inspiration. Depending on how you look at it.

I prefer to look at it in terms of OPPORTUNITY.

Unless, you look at why things went wrong in the US, in large part because conservatives in leadership generally loathe paying for public transport ( another form of social welfare), you cannot possible elect and have people in leadership positions who will be consistent and effective at pushing for rail.

It's like the AA states, you have to admit the problem before you can do something about it.

It's not surprising to see Jax leadership have very little interest in rail,......the city is Republican run.

Quote from: buckethead on October 03, 2009, 07:13:28 AM
Add in the occasional Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan travelling from ORL-Tampa. Do you believe there will be a significant residential base that will utilize this system? If so, why?

I understand the dysfunction of our elected officials as a whole, as well as within each party.

Thanks for the commentary on that. Would you care to comment on the question I asked?

It was not rhetorical, mean or incendiary. Just looking for clarity. I could still vote for you despite any differences of opinion if you prove to be as capable a debater and advocate for responsible government as you have proved to be at c&p.

buckethead, it's anyone's guess but I do think there will be a significant residential base. Maybe not the 50/50 split as the FDOT predicts, but likely in the 35-50%.

QuoteHigh speed rail: 64 minutes

Car: 88 minutes

Annual ridership: 2.8 million to 3.2 million passengers, with trains making 14 to 22 round trips daily on the Tampa-Orlando corridor.

Estimated costs from Tampa: $25 one-way to Disney; $30 one-way to Orlando International Airport

Yet to be answered:

Can people really give up their cars?

http://www.allbusiness.com/economy-economic-indicators/economic-indicators/13040577-1.html

The last question was already substantially answered last year when gas prices were $4. Ridership on public transportation, including rail increased significantly and stayed high even after gas prices came down. So the lesson is,.....once Americans try public transportation, they generally like it and stick with it.

There are so many factors that influence ridership though besides stops,.......there needs to be easy and convenient Park and ride opportunities,......we also need good frequency of service, so that if you miss a train, you can board the next one within a reasonable time. Also, that 88 min car drive is longer during rush hour, so any time it takes getting to and from the HSR station could still amount to less time than driving. Then there are environmentally conscious people etc.

The business community sure thinks there will be residential use of HSR:

QuoteThe business community has rallied to the cause, as well.

"Our company has a strong interest in transportation initiatives that benefit all sectors of the economy," said Becca Bides, spokeswoman for Busch Entertainment Corp. "As a significant employer in both Orlando and Tampa regions, we also are interested in bettering transportation options for our 11,000 employees."

We got to get started somewhere, and the ridership numbers including tourists look pretty good to me! It would be nice if Florida for once wasn't lagging behind, and regressive in its plans.

Busch must pay their theme park employees well if they expect them to live next to Orlando's airport and pay +$60 a day in transportation costs to travel to work.

How vocal have Central Florida's Fortune 500 companies (Publix, Tech Data, Int'l Assets, Jabil, Darden and Wellcare Health, etc.) been?

Quote from: thelakelander on October 03, 2009, 05:07:20 PM
Busch must pay their theme park employees well if they expect them to live next to Orlando's airport and pay +$60 a day in transportation costs to travel to work.

How vocal have Central Florida's Fortune 500 companies (Publix, Tech Data, Int'l Assets, Jabil, Darden and Wellcare Health, etc.) been?

Hmmm, yeah, let's make sure all Central Florida's Fortune 500 companies are on board........

Never mind that there is overwheming support all the way around:

QuoteAnother advantage for Florida is that its lobbying effort enjoys unusual bipartisan participation. Supporters include the Republican governor, both Florida U.S. senators, eight Democratic and three Republican congressmen; 21 state Republican and seven Democratic legislators; and a broad representation of business groups, the advocacy group FastRailConnect.Us.com says.

Vice President Joe Biden and U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in June made public comments supportive of Florida's rail plans, with LaHood saying Florida and California were leading contenders. LaHood is scheduled to address a transportation conference in Orlando next month.

http://www.allbusiness.com/economy-economic-indicators/economic-indicators/13040577-1.html

Curiously a local congressman who is a so-called supporter of HSR ( primarily to take away and privatize Amtrak's most profitable route) is not among the 11 Congressmen from Florida supporting HSR. And you know, we've just got to have his back ;)

Meantime, let's hear from Alexander Lennartz, a freelance writer based out of Los Angeles, dealing with issues of sustainable energy policy, public transportation and green architecture:

QuoteAfter the Bushes have gone: High Speed Rail & the Florida corridor
Posted on July 27, 2009
by CleanTechies - Premier Partner SustainLane Premier Content Partners are part of a growing network of publishers bringing you the very best green content from across the web.


As a former resident of Florida (1999-2002…Go Seminoles) your author can assure you, the state is in need of high speed rail.

The vast state makes travel times by car irritatingly long. The most extreme example is the drive from Pensacola to Key West. Distance of that journey is 828 miles, clocking in at over 13 hours. From anywhere in the panhandle to south Florida is an all day affair behind the wheel.

Drivers along the highways (especially 10) are under the close eye of the Highway Patrol and must keep the pace under 75 miles per hour for hours and hours and hours. Out of all the HSR corridors, Florida should have the most urgent need for speed. A 220 mph train would be the optimal mode of transit from Tallahassee all the way down to Miami. The length of that journey (480 miles) gives passenger rail a time advantage over cars and planes. Any trip less than 500 miles gives trains the upper hand concerning travel times.

All of Florida’s major cities are in that crucial 500 mile range along the I-75 corridor or coast. From Jacksonville to Miami, virtually the entire length of the state, the distance is 344 miles. With this in mind, the architect of the modern Florida HSR .

Corridor, C.C “Doc” Dockery, sought to bring this infrastructure to the state. This effort ran headlong into the Bush family. For some reason, Governor Jeb Bush was diametrically opposed to HSR in Florida and did everything in his power to kill passenger rail in the Sunshine State (*FYI â€" House of Bush, House of Saud offers some rather salient points and can be found on Amazon.com here).

Florida’s population has nearly doubled since 1980 from over 9 million people to over 18 million in 2008. This constant influx of people shaped the Floridian economy into what has been described as a giant Ponzi scheme. The state is dependent on new arrivals and investment to keep the economy running. Developers built condos, malls and golf courses, but neglected to build sufficient transport infrastructure to link what they had made.

The economic crisis bit Florida in a number of ways. The housing bubble was the most significant. Also high on the list of ills is that expensive fuel hit Floridians very hard because the only way to get around the peninsula is by car. It does not matter if you are a student going to see your parents on the weekend or a retiree that wants to hit the links, without a car you are going nowhere. This dependence is unhealthy and other transport options need to be made available.

The good news is that the Bushes are out of their respective offices. Republican Governor Charlie Crist is a tacit supporter of the plan, which by GOP standards is a ringing endorsement. Governor Crist is set for a Senate run in 2010 so it may be up to a new Governor to get momentum for the project on the state level. For this project, the federal government might need to step in and get things rolling.

Posted to CleanTechies by alex

CleanTechies is a career site & business network for the CleanTech community. It focuses on renewable energy, resource efficiency, green building, and sustainable transportation.

http://www.sustainlane.com/reviews/after-the-bushes-have-gone-high-speed-rail-the-florida-corridor/FBYUSC4K9MXVUA9AR12PJPNA13QB

SKYWAY II, ANOTHER NO - BRAIN DECISION

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/09/23/world/23crash600.1.jpg)

QuoteOCKLAWAHA'S STORY TELLING:
German High Speed Rail Train Wreck, like the Orlando-Tampa deal this was a no-brainer... The engineers that designed the cars, discovered the old drawings for "silent wheels" here in the USA. Train wheels DO HAVE A TIRE of a super high grade / almost stainless steel outer band. These are heat shrunk onto the wheel then cooled causing the tire to contract TIGHT making the wheel look like a single piece. The tire goes on the wheel, but with Silent Wheel technology, there is a layer of thick high impact paper which deadens the sound transfer from wheel meets rail to the inside of the coach. So far, so good, only something was lost in translation and nobody in Germany knew the American PAPER WHEELS WERE DESIGNED FOR STREETCARS! No frickin' wonder the damn thing shredded. Another HSR no - brainer.

All Information from US CENSUS Bureau.

Orange County Florida,
largest single industry for females: Lodging - 13%
largest single industry for males: Lodging - 12%

The Beach Line Turnpike, divides all zip codes either north or south of the highway. Running a line of zip codes all the way across Orlando, on the ORLANDO SIDE, or NORTH SIDE of the Beach Line produces this data:

32833 zip
5,000 population
184 density very low

32825 zip
43,000 population
1348 density low

32822 zip
52,000 population
2262 density low

32812 zip
36000 population
4725 density average

32809 zip
22000 population
2612 density average

Now on the South for Airport side of the Beach Line Turnpike

32821 zip
13,000 population
798 density low

32837 zip
35,000 population
2607 density average

32824 zip
19,000 population
831 density low

32827 zip
2,000 population
80 density very low

32832 zip
2,000 population
37 density very low

So there you have it boys and girls, Orange County from about the East-West Expressway to the Beach Line Turnpike, south to the County Line. East and West across the whole spectrum from Boonie east, to Boonie west.

This is not the stuff HSR should be serving, much of this area roughly 10-12 miles north or south of the airport, and 20 miles east or west, well beyond most park and ride commute distances from OIA. Frankly had Jacksonville located JIA like Orlando did OIA, we'd have to drive to Big Talbot Island to get on a plane! If this thing gets funded it will not vindicate Faye's position, or FDOT, DOT, etc... It's going to be a transportation Titanic, that will galvanize the anti-rail forces in Tallahassee from EVER DOING RAIL AGAIN!

Using the CSX right of way, the zip code populations change drastically.  Very few numbers like 37 or 80 persons per square mile in density. Why? Because that railroad has been there since the old SOUTH FLORIDA narrow gauge was extended from Sanford to Tampa in the 1870's.

This isn't about a "SHOWCASE TRAIN" or a "MAGIC CURE" this is about money pure and simple. If it's approved after some of the scathing articles in industry publications, basically saying what Lake and I have been saying all along, then look under the table. Somebody has got a pocket full of MICKEY MONEY.  

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteFrom Faye :
Curiously a local congressman who is a so-called supporter of HSR ( primarily to take away and privatize Amtrak's most profitable route) is not among the 11 Congressmen from Florida supporting HSR. And you know, we've just got to have his back

Actually Faye, recent discoverys in Amtraks lousy bookkeeping, have shown that about 3 out of 4 audits have proved that the North East Corridor IS NOT the most profitable part of Amtrak. This was mostly the fault of a news media type error and somehow became "fact". You want to see a train that MAKES MONEY in the USA, go look at Auto-Train in Sanford, or Amtraks EMPIRE BUILDER between Chicago - Twin Cities - Portland/Seattle. I know that you Faye, and tufsu1, and God knows how many others might post 100 articles about the "profit from the NEC." Amtraks Crescent Limited NYC-NOL, is another example of long distance that works. One train each way daily, (and it should be 5 each way daily) covers the NYC-Washington, Washington-Alexandria, Alexandria-Charlotte, Charlotte-Atlanta, Atlanta-Birmingham, Birmingham-Meridian, Meridan-New Orleans. Every mile is part of a smaller corridor, and it's nearly impossible to book a seat or bedroom on this train.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock I do agree............have no choice! True HSR would involve , by my rules, runs of 5 to 8 Hundred Miles  and this so-called HSR run from Orlando Airport to St Pete does not have the total mileage to qualify as HSR. Feeder system to Mouseville is more appropriate or Airport person removal system but not High Speed Rail. Something along the lines of Jacksonville, Miami, Orlando, Tallahassee, in either direction along with route expansion out north or west makes sense to me. I read somewhere that Jacksonville to Miami is something like 388 miles and that sounds about right so with HSR (200 mph+) even taking into account several stops, run time would be about 3 to 5 hours! More stops, then more time but more than 1 to 5 people would be moving all in the same direction and if you add x numbers of cars to increase ridership, you remove x number of cars from the road. I am gonna stop there........flogging the proverbial deceased mule!

CS...your rules make no sense...most everyopne else believes that HSR can compete with air travel for distances of up to 500 (or maybe more) miles....meaning that trips of around 100 miles would qualify!

tufsu1 I stand by my statement............which if you will note "500 to 800 miles" ! I would think that trips up to 100 miles would qualify also under that, to me that would go without saying! I believe most systems would label that as an "Express" right? New York has a mix of just subway transit for both local and express....I think that would be a matter of scheduling and available track for passing other than that most of the subway traffic is scheduled for multiple usage by different trains. Something along those lines could be used elsewhere also. HSR by my standards is high speed rail with trip duration scheduled according to ridership and requirements for the traveling public. I want a rail system in Florida that is multiuse, cost effective and statewide!

This is what you said...

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 04, 2009, 06:25:11 AM
True HSR would involve , by my rules, runs of 5 to 8 Hundred Miles  and this so-called HSR run from Orlando Airport to St Pete does not have the total mileage to qualify as HSR.

Are you now changing your mind and deciding that a 100 mile distance (from Tampa - Orlando) could be acceptable? 

Keep in mind that the system would then be extended 250+ miles to Miami...and possibly another 125+ up to Jax....where it could then tie into a national system

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 03, 2009, 07:45:38 PM

QuoteFrom Faye :
Curiously a local congressman who is a so-called supporter of HSR ( primarily to take away and privatize Amtrak's most profitable route) is not among the 11 Congressmen from Florida supporting HSR. And you know, we've just got to have his back

Actually Faye, recent discoverys in Amtraks lousy bookkeeping, have shown that about 3 out of 4 audits have proved that the North East Corridor IS NOT the most profitable part of Amtrak. This was mostly the fault of a news media type error and somehow became "fact". You want to see a train that MAKES MONEY in the USA, go look at Auto-Train in Sanford, or Amtraks EMPIRE BUILDER between Chicago - Twin Cities - Portland/Seattle. I know that you Faye, and tufsu1, and God knows how many others might post 100 articles about the "profit from the NEC." Amtraks Crescent Limited NYC-NOL, is another example of long distance that works. One train each way daily, (and it should be 5 each way daily) covers the NYC-Washington, Washington-Alexandria, Alexandria-Charlotte, Charlotte-Atlanta, Atlanta-Birmingham, Birmingham-Meridian, Meridan-New Orleans. Every mile is part of a smaller corridor, and it's nearly impossible to book a seat or bedroom on this train.  

OCKLAWAHA

Sorry, Ock, seems you have been reading too much Heritage Foundation BS.

It's not just tfsu1 and I that know the Acela is THE most profitable line Amtrak has:

QuoteThe fastest passenger train in North America, Amtrak's Acela Express, now runs between Boston, New York and Washington, and is capable of reaching a top speed of about 240 km/h. But it often averages speeds of less than 140 km/h because of track conditions, conflicts with freight trains and other safety restrictions.


The electrified train, powered by an overhead wire, was a joint project by Alstom and Canadian-based Bombardier. It was brought into service in 2001 and soon became a money-making route for the government-owned, passenger-rail service.


"Amtrak as a whole is not profitable, but the Acela Express is and has been (profitable),"   company spokesman Clifford Cole said.


The government spent nearly $2.6 billion U.S. to acquire equipment and build new infrastructure for the line, according to figures from a 2004 federal audit, but Amtrak officials estimate they would need billions of dollars in additional investments and agreements with track owners for the train to run at its maximum speeds.


Nevertheless, the improved speed and frequency of the new train allowed ridership on the route to go from 2.4 million passengers in 2000 (before the Acela train went into service), up to 3.4 million passengers in 2008.


Roelof Van Ark, a senior vice-president of Alstom Transport in North America, said that he is optimistic suppliers will soon see an increase in demand for other fast trains on the continent, partially as a result of the Obama administration's plan.


"Today, everyone knows that the European systems are very successful and we are very happy to share our knowledge of why those business cases worked with the future North American users of such systems," said Van Ark, who has worked in the transportation industry for more than 25 years.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Part+Four+Stimulus+funding+puts+California+track+high+speed+rail/1840584/story.html#

Clearly if we take the Acela from Amtrak, we leave Amtrak with only unprofitable business, which is precisely the intent of the known "Amtrak Hater."

(http://www.newyorksocialdiary.com/i/partypictures/03_10_09/grace/3/20thCenturyLimited.jpg)
Throughout the Century, "The 20Th Century Limited," passengers walked out to this train on this red carpet.

(http://imagecache5.art.com/p/LRG/27/2702/3EDND00Z/alfred-eisenstaedt-women-drinking-in-club-car-aboard-the-20th-century-limited.jpg)
The Club Car, on the original 20Th Century Limited.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/100/310638710_5b89a3b1f9.jpg)
Skytop Observation Lounge Car, exclusive to the Milwaukee Roads, CHI-SEA, Olympia Hiawatha.

No Faye, communications error here: I said "THE NORTHEAST CORRIDOR," as a whole, has proved to be a money loser, as opposed to the most of the long distance services. Pulling the Acela out of the Corridor as a profitable operation, and as an example of decent (not good) but decent Amtrak service at a profit, I'd agree. It's a niche market. There are hundreds of trains daily on that corridor + several branch corridors, there are only so many Acela trains. Other NEC lines such as north CT, East PA, West MA, NYC - ALB - BUF, BOS - ALB - BUF etc.seem forgotten by the media... The point being that taking a nice hard look at trains like the Silver Meteor, with a twist of the luxury of the opulent age of railroads, The Art Deco of the 1929 Paris Expo of decadent arts, and the America on top of the world themes of the 1950's, I think it would be magic.

You still with me? See, I'm not so mean.

You want to write the laws, and I want to design some train routes for you. Deal?

My vision for Amtrak is to NEVER AGAIN here the now common phrase, "I took THE Amtrak." The trains are so GI Issue they have melted into one big glob of red, white and blue, it's horrible, still better then 17" of Butt space on a plane, but horrible in perspective. Which cruise ship did you take? Do you ever hear, "Oh we took the Ship," When/if anyone reading this takes the kids to the beach while dad does some late office work downtown, do you talk on the cell phone and tell him, "Oh, I took THE car." "Uh? What car?" The minivan, sports coupe, or new Buick?? In our multi-car and multi-airline world nobody takes a generic ride or flight. At the very least I came in last night on Deltas Red Eye from LAX. 

Let's get creative and leap backwards for the answer to the longer distance routes. For example Amtrak-West took the chefs through their intensive high dollar gourmet academy's (all divisions do), but then brought them home and sent them to LA, SF, PDX, SEA, to learn the regional dishes under master chefs. Today when rolling through the Pacific Northwest on the Coast Starlight, one can feast on fresh Pacific Salmon, Yakina Bay Oysters, eat San Francisco Sour Dough bread, with Napa Valley Wines, and the final dinner into LA might be a Latin feast.

Just that little detail, a tiny and cheap change for the better, has created a waiting list for most departures. In fact if "Uncle Pete" aka: Union Pacific, would get out of Amtrak's way, we'd probably see a return of the old
"Shasta Daylight", "The Lark", "The Owl", to this route. Nobody EVER gets off the Coast Starlight with the drab, "I took THE Amtrak Line..." They step off feeling like royalty, and as they walk away, perhaps with their complimentary shined shoes, fresh morning paper, California OJ, SEA Coffee, and small first class gift basket of WA, OR, CA, goodies, they KNOW they rode THE COAST STARLIGHT!

Faye, NYC - Chicago, and NYC - Florida created this type of train travel, we need to get it back. No more GI issue trains.

OCKLAWAHA

tufsu1 not changing my mind.........we appear to be discussing two different types of systems....HSR and Light Rail. Distances of 100 miles could be covered by HSR but that does not take into account stops on a 100 mile route. Getting up to speed is not the issue......being able to stop is, which is a simple matter of physics. Multiple stops defeats the purpose of HSR which should have as few stops as possible in order to cover that 100 mile distance in reasonable time. Light Rail is more appropriate since that type of system is geared towards stopping and starting.....so maybe we are discussing semantics more than a system discussion. Most agree that some sort of rail system is needed .....the bigger question is where to start? Orlando is not the best region to start I don't think for HSR......Jacksonville to Miami would be better test platform and give a better picture with options to expand in more directions with existing tracks allready in place. Orlando could be added from Miami direction or Jacksonville. It just doesn't make sense to me to start in the middle of the state and then try to expand in two directions at the same time. What I do know is quite simple.............Florida needs a rail system and we need it soon!

and you aren't changing my mind either....but I do find it interesting that you complain all the time about Jax. not having a plan or vision....and this HSR vision/plan has been in the works since the mid-70's yet you want to throw it out.

Here's a bunch of updated information on Florida's HSR plans....including financial and ridership data

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/hsr/

QuoteThe Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) submitted a Track 2 Application for High Speed Rail as part of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act "Vision for High Speed Rail in America" Program. FDOT is requesting $2.6 billion to fund the implementation of the Tampa to Orlando route, and another $30 million to advance planning on the Orlando-Miami route. (my emphasis)

If funding is awarded by year end 2009, Florida can begin the implementation of the first High Speed Rail Express system in the United States starting late in 2010. This is possible due to the extensive previous work performed in advancing High Speed Rail in the State, including the achievement of a Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS) for the Tampa-Orlando. FDOT has also offered $570 million of in-kind contribution based on its visionary preservation of the I-4 median for the purpose of building HSR. A Public Private Partnership is envisioned in which private entities will be offered the opportunity to operate and maintain the system for a long period in exchange for the ridership revenue from the system. Ridership projections updated for this application show substantial surpluses being produced from the system.     

tufsu1 not trying to change your mind.........just trying to explain from my point of view. I find it interesting that all of a sudden Orlando is the region for enhancement when Jacksonville already has tracks in and out. To me it is a question of using what is available now and not having to spend money for tracks which are not even there yet. To me it is a question of cost effectiveness and making the most of our tax dollars. Orlando has not much of anything other than potential ridership and at $30 bucks a ride....not sure how viable that would be over the long haul. Spend 2.5 Billion for a maybe and spend that amount for something that is already in place? Tracks are here.........tracks are not there.........so which is more cost effective for the dollar?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 04, 2009, 06:26:57 PM


You want to write the laws, and I want to design some train routes for you. Deal?

My vision for Amtrak is to NEVER AGAIN here the now common phrase, "I took THE Amtrak." The trains are so GI Issue they have melted into one big glob of red, white and blue, it's horrible, still better then 17" of Butt space on a plane, but horrible in perspective. Which cruise ship did you take? Do you ever hear, "Oh we took the Ship," When/if anyone reading this takes the kids to the beach while dad does some late office work downtown, do you talk on the cell phone and tell him, "Oh, I took THE car." "Uh? What car?" The minivan, sports coupe, or new Buick?? In our multi-car and multi-airline world nobody takes a generic ride or flight. At the very least I came in last night on Deltas Red Eye from LAX. 

Let's get creative and leap backwards for the answer to the longer distance routes. For example Amtrak-West took the chefs through their intensive high dollar gourmet academy's (all divisions do), but then brought them home and sent them to LA, SF, PDX, SEA, to learn the regional dishes under master chefs. Today when rolling through the Pacific Northwest on the Coast Starlight, one can feast on fresh Pacific Salmon, Yakina Bay Oysters, eat San Francisco Sour Dough bread, with Napa Valley Wines, and the final dinner into LA might be a Latin feast.

Just that little detail, a tiny and cheap change for the better, has created a waiting list for most departures. In fact if "Uncle Pete" aka: Union Pacific, would get out of Amtrak's way, we'd probably see a return of the old
"Shasta Daylight", "The Lark", "The Owl", to this route. Nobody EVER gets off the Coast Starlight with the drab, "I took THE Amtrak Line..." They step off feeling like royalty, and as they walk away, perhaps with their complimentary shined shoes, fresh morning paper, California OJ, SEA Coffee, and small first class gift basket of WA, OR, CA, goodies, they KNOW they rode THE COAST STARLIGHT!

Faye, NYC - Chicago, and NYC - Florida created this type of train travel, we need to get it back. No more GI issue trains.

Agreed, though I'd like to caution that "leaping backwards for the answer to the longer distance routes" is tricky. Here is what happens when anti-HSR folks do that:

QuoteO'Toole's main fallacy. How does O'Toole "prove" that performance on the Northeast Corridor is the ceiling for High Speed Rail performance nationwide?

Its proof by assertion: "If trains in the most heavily populated corridor in the United States cannot cover their costs, no other trains will come close."

As is often the case, if you don't stop to think about it and don't know better, the claim seems plausible. However, in reality its a steaming pile of bullshit.

What the statement assumes is that no other transport operator will notice that there are all those people living in the Northeast. O'Toole is, in other words, assuming an incredible degree of stupidity on the part of private and public intercity bus operators, stupidity on the part of airline management, stupidity on the part of local intercity rail operators.

After all, think about demand in any market. Everything else equal, the more alternative choices available, the more responsive customers are to changes in prices, and so the less a seller can rely on margin per item and the harder they have to chase volume.

Suppose a region is as densely populated as the Northeast Corridor. What does that mean for the transport market? It means more options: a greater variety of more frequent transport services available. Airline shuttles, specialized intercity bus services, commuter rail services that run between distinct cities - there is a wide range of intercity transport options.

Now, compare it to a less densely populated region. Consider Ohio, which has an overall population density similar to Germany. Taking that notch down in population density means more expensive and less frequent commuter airline routes that would be shuttles in the Northeast. Taking that notch down in density means a once a day Greyhound through route operates where a higher population density would support multiple dedicated intercity bus routes.

Just in terms of private operators, taking the population density down a notch means that there are fewer transport services as an alternative to driving, and those that exist are much less frequent.

And that lower population density also means that there is less political demand for subsidies to alternatives to driving, which also translates into fewer local and state public subsidies for intercity transport.

The total transport market increases in size with population, but there are both positives and negatives in that for the financial performance of a High Speed Rail service. Which means it is absurd to make the claim that O'Toole does. Instead, you have to evaluate each corridor on a case by case basis.

So O'Toole's argument here (as is true so often) is little more than a bluff. He hopes that you follow along his argument as he has framed it, and accept an authoritatively stated claim as if it is self-evidently true.

Given how strongly O'Toole states his bluff, we can be confident that it is false to say "If trains in the most heavily populated corridor in the United States cannot cover their costs, no other trains will come close."

For intercity rail, the more likely truth is, "If High Speed Rail covers its operating cost in the most crowded intercity transport market in the US, we should find some corridors that can do even better."


Consider, for example, the Ohio Hub

One advantage of the "do another study" approach used by the Bush administration to delay the introduction of High Speed Rail is that a lot of these corridors have been quite extensively studied. So it is that the Ohio Hub has not only pretty maps to look at, but Sample Timetables available in its detailed modeling.

Consider a sample main afternoon Express service on the Triple C corridor:

Cleveland (dep): 2:00pm
Columbus: 3:38pm
Dayton: 4:33pm
Cincinnati: 5:28

Which is to say: Cleveland|Columbus in 1:38, Columbus|Cincinnati in 1:50, Columbus|Dayton, Dayton|Cincinnati: 0:55. For comparison, Google Maps gives driving time Cleveland|Columbus 2:20; Columbus|Cincinnati: 1:49; Columbus|Dayton: 1:17; and Dayton|Cincinnati: 0:55.

So with the Triple C tying together three 1m+ metro areas, it is most time competitive for Cleveland|Columbus, while on the Columbus|Cincinnati route, the 500K+ metro area of Dayton lies along the route to provide additional patronage.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/4/789665/-Sunday-Train:-Breaking-Free-of-the-Population-Density-Myth

This means that tying together muliple populations of 100,000 along the Tampa- Orlando route as lakelander wants is just not suitable for HSR. But then again lakelander doesn't want to start with HSR.

Using O'toole as a spokesperson on HSR is definitely not advisable, since he worked for the utra-conservative anti-public transportation CATO institute:

QuoteRandall O'Toole, working for The Cato Institute (Sourcewatch), recently completed another of his series of propaganda pieces against High Speed Rail, for the "Show-Me Institute".

Sourcewatch does not have much on the "Show-Me Institute", but it does note that in 2006, a contribution of $50,000 to the "Show-Me Institute" appeared in the annual report ... of the Cato Institute.

I am not going to force anyone to actually open up and wade through the blizzard of half truths, hypothetical «if this, then that» arguments where there is no reason to expect «this», and rhetorical flourishes in place of empirically grounded argument that makes up an O'Toole report. I'll wade in and pull out this thread of his argument:

QuoteDespite optimistic forecasts by rail proponents, passenger fares would rarely if ever cover high-speed operating costs. Amtrak operations currently cost federal and state taxpayers more than $1 billion per year.34 According to the bipartisan Amtrak Reform Council, Amtrak’s trains between Boston and Washington lost nearly $2.30 per passenger in 2001. [35] If trains in the most heavily populated corridor in the United States cannot cover their costs, no other trains will come close.

O'Toole's argument sounds remarkably similar to yours Ock  ;)

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 05, 2009, 12:33:21 PM
tufsu1 not trying to change your mind.........just trying to explain from my point of view. I find it interesting that all of a  To me it is a question of using what is available now and not having to spend money for tracks which are not even there yet. To me it is a question of cost effectiveness and making the most of our tax dollars. Orlando has not much of anything other than potential ridership and at $30 bucks a ride....not sure how viable that would be over the long haul. Spend 2.5 Billion for a maybe and spend that amount for something that is already in place? Tracks are here.........tracks are not there.........so which is more cost effective for the dollar?

Hmmm, I wonder why Germany was able to leap ahead of the US after WWII,.............could it have been because they had to rebuild everything from scratch because their entire country had been destroyed.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for recycling, but there are situations where it can make more sense to start from scratch with the latest technology. Nothing worse than outdated technology in some areas of our economy.

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 05, 2009, 12:46:51 PM
This means that tying together muliple populations of 100,000 along the Tampa- Orlando route as lakelander wants is just not suitable for HSR. But then again lakelander doesn't want to start with HSR.

I'm not against HSR.  As you stated, I don't believe the Tampa-Orlando corridor is the best fit for it.  This corridor really needs commuter rail to better accomodate both local and tourist movement.

Faye that's easy.........called the "Marshall Plan".......did the same thing to Japan come to think of it! I do agree that our infrastructure is dated and antiquated for sure. Maybe you have a point with starting from scratch but we do have tracks in place that are being used on a daily basis for freight (CSX/FEC) so it should not be too much trouble to use same tracks for passenger service. Make use of what we have and go from there!

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 05, 2009, 12:33:21 PM
tufsu1 not trying to change your mind.........just trying to explain from my point of view. I find it interesting that all of a sudden Orlando is the region for enhancement when Jacksonville already has tracks in and out. To me it is a question of using what is available now and not having to spend money for tracks which are not even there yet. To me it is a question of cost effectiveness and making the most of our tax dollars. Orlando has not much of anything other than potential ridership and at $30 bucks a ride....not sure how viable that would be over the long haul. Spend 2.5 Billion for a maybe and spend that amount for something that is already in place? Tracks are here.........tracks are not there.........so which is more cost effective for the dollar?

In the near-term, that would definitely be the Tampa-Orlndo route using the I-4 median...remember that true HSR would likely require significant track upgrades....and then there's the grade-separated crossings....each one would be $5-$10 million to build (think of how many crossings there are on the FEC tracks in Duval and St. Johns County alone)....now remember that most of the roads crossing I-4 go over, meaning grade separation of the median is already in place.

As for ridership, I suggest you review the studies on the FDOT link I provided earlier today....there is also information on that same site regarding the FEC corridor rail project.

Finally, you note that freight is already using the FEC line....that's part of the problem.....there's no way to have true HSR when one doesn't own and control the tracks...especially when there is only one track!

OK tufsu1......thanks for the link! Gives me an idea of what is going on but still question the validity of the initial start point............Orlando to St Pete/Tampa is pretty much of a stand alone system with expansion back to the east only problem with that I can see is you still have build bridges and crossovers on that eastern side in order to route south. You still end up with basically a stand alone system that is isolated from hooking up with other tracks...............so not sure that area is the ideal showplace for HSR! A system designed from scratch may be a better fit, but true HSR just doesn't appear to me to be one not in the proposed setting. That's just my take on the situation!

not true...the eastern leg uses either the Turnpike or the Beachline/I-95

btw...for those who don't want to sift through the studies, here's the bottom line on ridership projections

FEC (Jax - Miami) - 900,000 passengers in 2022 (assuming start-up in 2012) w/ 2 roundtrips per day
HSR (TPA - ORL) - 1.6 million intercity passengers + 1.1 million airport access passengers in 2020
HSR (TPA - MIA) - 7.6 million passengers in 2023 (seems to not include TPA-ORL passengers)

Is this 2.7 million passengers a year?  So that shakes out to roughly 7,397 riders a day in 2020?

Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2009, 01:03:08 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 05, 2009, 12:46:51 PM
This means that tying together muliple populations of 100,000 along the Tampa- Orlando route as lakelander wants is just not suitable for HSR. But then again lakelander doesn't want to start with HSR.

I'm not against HSR.  As you stated, I don't believe the Tampa-Orlando corridor is the best fit for it.  This corridor really needs commuter rail to better accomodate both local and tourist movement.

While the ORL-MIA route is pobably even better for HSR, FL decided to start relatively small, so as to be up and running sooner. And I agree with that strategy.

The stimulus funding was spposed to be like a Marshall plan for the US. I"m excited in that we don't have to deal wirh recalcitrant Republicans in our state legislature, to come up with any matching state funding for HSR. We can see how they left Tri-Rail high and stranded.

I don't even mind using Tampa/Orlando has a starting point.  The population and growth is certainly there.  Its just best to design these systems to best take advantage of the corridor they are going into.  The Midwest HSR plan is a great example of working with what you already have in a manner that gets the best utilization out of the money needed to jump start such a massive project.  The current Florida plan can be summed up as attempting to stick a square peg into a round hole. 

Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2009, 02:25:23 PM
Is this 2.7 million passengers a year?  So that shakes out to roughly 7,397 riders a day in 2020?

Yes...although another version assume 4.5 million passengers by 2030 (more aggressive assumptions on Disney visitors).

LaHood in Orlando today on HSR - "you've got to get your act together"
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-trains-florida-100509,0,6002951.story (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orl-trains-florida-100509,0,6002951.story)

wonder if Sen. Dockery got the message?

The State needs to support Tri rail, Sunrail, Tampa's and Jax's Commuter and Streetcar plans.

QuoteU.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood had a simple message today for the Florida Senate: Get behind the planned SunRail commuter train in Central Florida, or forget about the state winning $2.5 billion in federal money for a proposed high speed train linking Orlando with Tampa.

"You've got to get your act together," LaHood told theOrlando Sentinel about the Senate, which twice has failed to approve SunRail.

"If they don't," he said moments later to a Florida official, "there's going to be a lot of disappointed people."

Lol, good stuff.  Now the ball is in Florida's court.  Faye, what do you think Florida should do?  Support Sunrail and HSR or give up on both?

Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2009, 08:21:13 PM
Faye, what do you think Florida should do?  Support Sunrail and HSR or give up on both?

Florida should either rework Sunrail, so it isn't such an expensive corporate give-away, and work out a similar liability agree ment as the CSX deal in Massachusetts ( in the event an accident occurs involving a freight train and CSXT is clearly at fault because of willful misconduct, the rail road will be responsible to pay the deductible on that policy, up to a maximum of $7.5 million per accident.), or

Maybe start off with LRT as Tampa is doing,..........seems to me a far easier one to work out and more state of the art. It's crazy that Orlando and other Florida cities don't have LRT.

Obviously we WILL NOT give up on HSR. As LaHood says "It (high speed rail) is the next step," LaHood said, "the next level of transportation … It means you are forward thinking."

LRT to me is more forward thinking, and we are just as ready to go with that as we are Sunrail, if not better.

Not saying that Tampa should not move forward but their LRT plan is a good decade away IF their residents agree to tax themselves extra to pay for it next year.  We're just as likely to have commuter rail running in Jacksonville before the first Tampa resident hops on a LRT train in that city.  On the other hand, Sunrail is a Florida Senate vote away from reality.  My guess is that the state and CSX will come to some sort of agreement on the liability issue.  There's too much money on the table for them to walk away.  

Although I still wonder how these projects complement each other.  Unless a new commuter rail corridor (which has not been shown to date) is constructed to Orlando's airport, it will be impossible to transfer between these systems.

Quote from: stephendare on October 05, 2009, 09:05:24 PM
so if the man writing the check says both or nothing, which he did, what do you say to that?

If you read the article, it is not clear that LaHood specificall ymentioned Sunrail,.........none of his quotes use the word Sunrail. LaHood just means we have to provide intracity public transport. The article says:  communities that support all forms of transit, from buses to commuter trains to bicycle paths. And he wants them to connect, allowing people to get out of their cars, reducing congestion and pollution.

That means an Orlando LRT would be just as good if Sunrail is causing too much trouble.

Unless the reporter made a false statement, its clear as day that Sunrail and HSR's fates have been tied together.  Now its time to see if Florida can rise above political games.

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 05, 2009, 09:01:35 PM
LRT to me is more forward thinking, and we are just as ready to go with that as we are Sunrail, if not better.

not even remotely true...

Orlando was more ready for LRT in 1998 than they are now...before the Orange County Commission voted no and the money went to Charlotte.

And Tampa was more ready in 2002 than they are now...before the Hillsborough County Commission voted no and FTA dropped them off the list.

For either city to implement LRT now would require major updates to the environmental studies and to start the engineering/design work...SunRail already has their environmental studies and preliminary design done.

If their fates are tied to one another you need to make the systems work together. HSR makes much more sense to me in tandem with systems that move you locally.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2009, 02:25:23 PM
Is this 2.7 million passengers a year?  So that shakes out to roughly 7,397 riders a day in 2020?

Wow, sounds like a winner Lake, 105 passengers per mile, per day. The poor Skyway get about 500 passengers per mile, per day. Another BILLION dollar winner for Florida.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock...careful what you say....sometimes costs and users (which should not be a major measure) don't line up very well.

The Amtrak on FEC line is expected to cost over $700 million with all upgrades....and is projected to carry 910,000 passengers a year in its tenth year of operations (after all upgrades)....that amounts to less than 2500 passengers per day.

Clearly the Outer beltway and SR 9B will have a better cost/user ratio!

What speeds are we hoping for on the FEC line?

up to 90 m.p.h.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 06, 2009, 01:39:01 PM
Ock...careful what you say....sometimes costs and users (which should not be a major measure) don't line up very well.

The Amtrak on FEC line is expected to cost over $700 million with all upgrades....and is projected to carry 910,000 passengers a year in its tenth year of operations (after all upgrades)....that amounts to less than 2500 passengers per day.

Clearly the Outer beltway and SR 9B will have a better cost/user ratio!

I've heard that Tri-rail may be looking to piggy back Amtrak's improvements to extend their service along the FEC.  In addition, if Jax is smart, we'll do the same thing.  The addition of two commuter rail corridors along this line will lead to a better cost/user ratio for the investment.

Hopefully several communities along the Florida east coast will use Amtrak to jump start transit efforts. Jacksonville needs to take advantage of this.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 05, 2009, 06:04:52 PM
wonder if Sen. Dockery got the message?

Here is what she says:

QuoteSeptember 15th, 2009 03:47pm
Dockery Says No Change From SunRail Supporters
by admin


State Sen. Paula Dockery mailed a report to fellow senators recently saying basically that the supporters of an Orlando commuter rail, which she helped defeat because of the liability clause, and the Florida Department of Transportation, which participated in secret negotiations with CSX Transportation haven’t changed their ways.

The FDOT, which at times during the last legislative session seemed to be lobbying for the private corporation and the Orange County businessmen who stand to gain from the commuter rail have not backed down from wanting the taxpayers to be liable for accidents and damages that the rail company may cause to the general public.

In her letter, she states, “as a courtesy to Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, I met with him and other SunRail proponents for a brief presentation and tour of the proposed commuter-rail project.”

The visit apparently did nothing to dissuade her belief that the commuter rail has little to do with moving passengers to their jobs.

“While the meeting was friendly and informative, what I saw was largely their desire for extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor,” she said. “What I didn’t see was any movement by the Florida Department of Transportation toward renegotiating the terrible terms of this deal with CSX Transportation.”

After reading her letter, can someone please tell the FDOT that it is a state agency? The most memorable e-mail statement from all the boxes of documents on SunRail obtained by Dockery was from a FDOT employee to a CSX consultant calling a Federal Transit Administration official “nasty.”

Dockery said she is still wary of any special session that could be held in October to ratify a gambling compact with the Seminole Tribe. The commuter rail people could still try to slip SunRail in.

http://polkpolitics.blogs.theledger.com/10003/dockery-says-no-change-from-sunrail-supporters/

I wonder if her tone will change after yesterday's bomb from LaHood or she is willing to kiss her husband's toy goodbye?

Paula needs to figure out that if she doesn't get behind SunRail, she'll have herself to blame for killing her husband's HSR dreams!

I still feel that since this project was initiated during the boom days of Florida, and the ridership numbers are rather low, that the real reason for Sunrail was to promote extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor in order to create ridership.

Is it primarily a developers bonanza rather than a people mover system?

Also I believe Florida was still flush with revenue, so the CSX deal didn't get the proper scrutiny, and there was heavy resistance to any modification. In addition I wonder if the counties are still that willing to come up with their share of the funding, with their own recessionary financial troubles to deal with.

I wonder if LaHood hurt Florida's bargaining position with CSX.

Things are becoming quite simple for Florida.  No Sunrail, no HSR, no Amtrak/FEC.  Its all or nothing as far as the Feds are concerned.

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 06, 2009, 03:53:31 PM
I still feel that since this project was initiated during the boom days of Florida, and the ridership numbers are rather low, that the real reason for Sunrail was to promote extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor in order to create ridership.

Is it primarily a developers bonanza rather than a people mover system?

nope...the original purpose of the project was to provide a transportation alternative while I-4 is under construction for many years (scheduled to begin around  2012)....Tri-Rail got started the same way (as an alternative to I-95 construction)

Quote from: JeffreyS on October 06, 2009, 04:09:07 PM
I wonder if LaHood hurt Florida's bargaining position with CSX.

I agree. The Sunrail at any cost folks, for sure will be salivating at the supposed LaHood ultimatum. Thoigh I am still not sure that LaHood mentioned Sunrail specifically, I wonder if LaHood and Mica, who are fellow Republicans owe each other some favors:

QuoteCongressmen Back LaHood In Dispute Over VMT Comment
By McNally, Sean
Publication: Transport Topics
Date: Monday, March 2 2009

You are viewing page 1
ARLINGTON, Va. - Con- gressional leaders from both parties last week defended Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood after a spokesman for President Obama rebuffed LaHood's suggestion that the government might use a vehicle miles-traveled tax to finance highways.

The Democratic chairman and ranking Republican ( John Mica) on the House transportation committee as well as the chairman of the House Appropriations transportation subcommittee all said that the White House rebuke of LaHood, an Illinois Republican, was unfair and that VMT ( vehicle miles tax) should be considered as a serious alternative to fuel taxes.

The issue concerning VMT flared up Feb. 20 after a LaHood interview with The Associated Press in which the former congressman, who served 14 years in the House from 1995 to Jan. 3, said the government "should look" at a tax on the number of miles that vehicles travel.

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, asked if Obama had weighed in on the concept, said the president had not done so but that VMT "is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration."

http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices-legislative/11820503-1.html


Here is a really good article explaining what went wrong with Sunrail. We'd do well to either fix those issues or turn to a better conceived LRT system for Orlando:

Quote
6/25/2009         

News

Rail is dead. Long live rail
Why SunRail's demise isn't a bad thing   

By Jeffrey C. Billman

Barring an 11th-hour reprieve, on June 30 the state’s deal with CSX for a 61.5-mile, $600 million-plus commuter rail line between DeLand and Poinciana will officially go the way of the dinosaur. With it goes the aspirations and spent political capital of the legion of lawmakers who spent years pushing for SunRail â€" especially Orlando Mayor Buddy and U.S. Rep. John Mica, a Republican who has spent decades in Washington securing federal money for mass transit, only to watch the locals screw it up.

In the end, SunRail drowned in a toxic stew of Tallahassee political machinations, parochialism and a recession that sucked the life out of most big-ticket items (save Dyer’s venues, of course). After losing a climactic vote in the state Senate in May, dejected SunRail supporters threw a temper tantrum that any toddler would admire. Orlando city commissioner Patty Sheehan blamed the “knuckle-dragging Neanderthals” in the state Legislature.

“I think the forces of evil have won,” Dyer added. Perhaps there’s truth to the idea that conservatives’ knee-jerk opposition to spending on infrastructure improvements doomed SunRail. But if SunRail’s supporters want someone to blame, they should find a mirror.

SunRail’s many shortcomings are rooted in this simple fact: After the collapse of light rail almost a decade ago, our leaders were so desperate to get something done that they gave away the store   (not unlike the new arena deal with the Orlando Magic, one could argue). The deal as presently conceived is a boondoggle, a corporate giveaway, an expensively ill-conceived effort that will subsidize exurban sprawl and do little to take cars off I-4.

We can do better. SunRail’s demise affords us that opportunity.

Back in 2006, the state’s Department of Transportation agreed to pay CSX $432 million for 61.5 miles of track. FDOT planned to invest another $173 million in improvement. According to critics, the cumulative capital investment of $615 million â€" $10 million per mile â€" makes this the most expensive rail purchase in U.S. history. Mica promised that the feds would pick up half, with the state and local governments splitting the rest. In turn, the state would lease the track back to CSX for off-hour freight runs at a fraction of the state’s maintenance costs.

To sweeten the deal â€" $10 million per mile isn’t sweet enough, apparently â€" the state also agreed to pay for any accidents associated with the rail line, even if CSX were at fault. If a CSX freight train crashed, Florida taxpayers would have been on the hook. State CFO Alex Sink said she wasn’t sure the state could find an insurer to underwrite that $200 million policy.

This deal, negotiated in secret, is the very definition of corporate welfare. And taxpayers wouldn’t get much in return. At best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders   â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus. As anyone who’s relied on LYNX can attest, that’s not a heart-warming prospect [see “Take the keys,” April 19, 2007].

SunRail supporters cast it as a down payment on what this region really needs: an intermodal network of light rail lines, buses and other mass transportation options that would efficiently link downtown, UCF, the airport, International Drive, Innovation Way and whatever other employment and entertainment hot spots emerge. Ideally, this network would hook up to federally funded high-speed rail lines that crisscross the state and render the car irrelevant â€" or at least, less necessary.

Commuter rail doesn’t do that. It subsidizes those who choose to live in the hinterlands. It papers over the poor growth-management decisions of yesteryear rather than encouraging smart growth. It’s not a cure; it’s a Band-Aid.

Light rail was a good idea torpedoed by special interests and political cowardice. Commuter rail was supposed to be the cheaper, more digestible alternative. Now that it too has imploded, maybe it’s time to step back and re-evaluate our options: If we’re going to spend the money, why not spend it on something that would actually work?

jbillman@orlandoweekly.com

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

I used to live in Poinciana,........the worst decision I made. It is so out in the middle of nowhere,........it is the typical developers bonanza, that has hurt public transportation efforts due to lack of sufficient density: Can you say sprawl?

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 06, 2009, 01:39:01 PM
Ock...careful what you say....sometimes costs and users (which should not be a major measure) don't line up very well.

The Amtrak on FEC line is expected to cost over $700 million with all upgrades....and is projected to carry 910,000 passengers a year in its tenth year of operations (after all upgrades)....that am ounts to less than 2500 passengers per day.

Clearly the Outer beltway and SR 9B will have a better cost/user ratio!

This is where it gets interesting, you seem to be warning that people will apply the same ratios to the FEC that they do to Sunrail or HSR. Sure they will, and why not? The average investigative reporter in this state, because of a complete lack of transportation experiences, is dumb as a bag of rocks. Hell's bells, they'll try and run the Sunset Limited down the Skyway.

Fact is, the FEC railroad project is a completely different animal then HSR, Sunrail OR the Skyway, the former is LONG DISTANCE RAIL TRAVEL and the later 3 are all "corridor-commute" in makeup.

Your warning does make a good heads up for Lake, Lunican, Stephen, Myself and even you as it's author. We need to make damn sure these Yahoo's know the difference... Riding in a Amtrak Viewliner Bedroom, having just had my ham and eggs in the diner, is a far cry from standing in the Skyway, or squishing ones self into a fixed plastic seat on a commuter train.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 06, 2009, 04:33:45 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 06, 2009, 03:53:31 PM
I still feel that since this project was initiated during the boom days of Florida, and the ridership numbers are rather low, that the real reason for Sunrail was to promote extensive redevelopment along the rail corridor in order to create ridership.

Is it primarily a developers bonanza rather than a people mover system?

nope...the original purpose of the project was to provide a transportation alternative while I-4 is under construction for many years (scheduled to begin around  2012)....Tri-Rail got started the same way (as an alternative to I-95 construction)

Yup, that's what was said to the public. The projected reality is far different:

QuoteAt best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic   â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

"Developers bonanza for sure...........still have a need for HSR, LRT and intown rail systems of what ever one wants to call it!

Quote from: thelakelander on October 05, 2009, 09:23:05 PM
Unless the reporter made a false statement, its clear as day that Sunrail and HSR's fates have been tied together.  Now its time to see if Florida can rise above political games.

Stephen and lakelander, I stand by my doubt that LaHood mentioned Sunrail by name. So I'm not willing to assume that their fates have been tied together. If that were the case it would have been mentioned in this report of the meeting too ( video included):

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/1005_high_speed_rail

QuotePush for high speed rail intensifies
Updated: Monday, 05 Oct 2009, 11:23 PM EDT
Published : Monday, 05 Oct 2009, 11:08 PM EDT

ORLANDO - Leaders of the major cities and counties in Florida sat side by side Monday to try to find ways to convince the Florida Legislature to approve a high speed rail network to unite the state.

At stake is $2.5 billion in federal funding, part of $8 billion set aside by the Obama administration for high-speed rail projects.

Competition for the money is expected to be fierce, as several other states have applied for the money.

U.S. Department of Transportation secretary Ray LaHood met with elected officials from Tampa, Miami, and Orlando. LaHood said the main reason they want Florida to approve a high speed rail system is so later down the line, the entire country could be connected.

According to LaHood, the rail system would promote economic expansion, create options for travelers, save customers money and create jobs.

He said now is the time to approve this plan because of the stimulus money the state could receive for the project.

Last week, Gov. Charlie Crist submitted Florida's high-speed rail proposal to the federal government.

Crist's application submitted Friday to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood was for a Tampa-Orlando-Miami route.

Crist wrote that approval by the end of this year would result in a contract by 2010 to implement the Tampa-Orlando leg.

Planning also then could proceed for an extension to Miami with the full system up and running by 2017.

I have doubts that the FEC deal will go down with the HSR boondoggle or Sunrail or even LRT. The FEC deal is something worked out with Amtrak as part of the national long-distance system, even funded back in 2002. As it has no relation to the other three projects, in type of services, operations, etc. it just doesn't fit. I think the FEC project is a go if ANYTHING in the USA get's a go.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 06, 2009, 07:44:02 PM

Yup, that's what was said to the public. The projected reality is far different:

QuoteAt best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic   â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

I never said that lots of people would actually use it....but it is our job to offer people mobility options (true here in Jax. and with HSR as well)...if they choose to sit in I-4 traffic for hours instead, so be it.

Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2009, 10:15:35 PM
Faye.  I cant imagine that the reporter would simply make up something that wasnt said.

I will go the extra mile tomorrow and call him to ask about it, but it seems far fetched.

Here is his email address and phone number, I invite others to do the same: 
Dan Tracy can be reached at 407-420-5444 or dtracy@orlandosentinel.com.

Having spoken with the DOT assistant secretary, and having passed along this idea to Stephen Gardner of Amtrak personally (that all of our mass transit projects need to be coordinated together) I would have a hard time believing that the administration would support anything else.

What is the basis of you thinking otherwise?

Stephen, you already know why I have my doubts:
1. I do not see direct quotes from LaHood in the Orlando Sentinel that mention Sunrail by name
2. A Tampa article clearly does not link the fates of transit projects together from the federal ( LaHood) point of view
3. The only thing I see LaHood saying in the Orlando Sentinel article is that our state should show "forward thinking" on transit
4. The Tampa article clearly shows no specific connection between different projects that are up for review by the feds.

I agree with Ock that the projects will be evaluated on their own merit.

Depending on how the question was asked and what the precise answer was, a lot can be done with creative interpretation by a reporter.

Believe me, from the 50 or so articles written about my activism and run for Congress, I am often surprised how info gets "translated" in the final article. So unless actual quotes are used ( and there is a audio recording of such) there is no reason to think LaHood himself linked the two specific projects. The reporter was careful enough to not put that info in actual quotes from LaHood.

It is a well-known fact that the Orlando Sentinel has written almost weekly Editorials praising Sunrail, and would love to see an ultimatum made by the feds to get this pet project rolling again.

PS, I am well aware that the transit experts on metrojacksonville are also fans of this project hence the jubilation at LaHood's supposed remarks. We will see if any audio is available to ascertain the exact words of LaHood to this reporter.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 06, 2009, 10:32:55 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 06, 2009, 07:44:02 PM

Yup, that's what was said to the public. The projected reality is far different:

QuoteAt best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic   â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

I never said that lots of people would actually use it....but it is our job to offer people mobility options (true here in Jax. and with HSR as well)...if they choose to sit in I-4 traffic for hours instead, so be it.

Why spend all that money if it's not going to alleviate congestion on I-4 during construction, as you said was the intent?

Faye, you're argument against Sunrail (the quote above) is the exact same argument that can be used against HSR.  While it may get you from Tampa to Orlando's airport fast, it eliminates service to all the stops, jobs, tourist attractions, and residents in between.  What good is fast, if you can see it blow through your hood but you don't have access to it?  Also, if your destination is not DT Tampa or Orlando's airport (a significant chunk of I-4 traffic isn't headed to these locations), you'll need to either rent a car or take a bus to your final destination.  Its also not going to put a dent in I-4 traffic as well.  It really adds up to being another mobility option, just like Sunrail.  Why is it okay for one mode (HSR in your opinion) but not okay for Sunrail?

Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2009, 10:45:01 PM
well no disrespect intended by the suggestion, but don't you think its nicer to ask the reporter in question before you imply his journalistic ethics are questionable?

As you know Faye, when you are right you are right. Count on me to back you up.

But I just cant see the reporter lying about it.

I will however, go the extra mile.

Just to clarify, I am not saying this reporter is lying ( although in the history of printed media that has been known to happen as you well know Stephen). However, I do believe there may be an interpretive translation at play. Unless LaHood's words were audiotaped, it's anyone's guess.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2009, 10:44:43 PM
Faye, you're argument against Sunrail (the quote above) is the exact same argument that can be used against HSR.  While it may get you from Tampa to Orlando's airport fast, it eliminates service to all the stops, jobs, tourist attractions, and residents in between.  What good is fast, if you can see it blow through your hood but you don't have access to it?  Also, if your destination is not DT Tampa or Orlando's airport (a significant chunk of I-4 traffic isn't headed to these locations), you'll need to either rent a car or take a bus to your final destination.  Its also not going to put a dent in I-4 traffic as well.  It really adds up to being another mobility option, just like Sunrail.  Why is it okay for one mode (HSR in your opinion) but not okay for Sunrail?

As Ock clarified, there is a huge difference with  "LONG DISTANCE RAIL TRAVEL and, (...) "corridor-commute."" ( Ock's quote)

Different objectives for each.

Different price tags too.  One is a whopping $2.5 billion with limited side benefits/permanent job creation, poor TOD development potential and a risky proposed fare.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2009, 11:02:37 PM
Different price tags too.  One is a whopping $2.5 billion with limited side benefits/permanent job creation, poor TOD development potential and a risky proposed fare.

Job creation numbers directly related to construction of HSR is projected at 15,000.

QuoteEstimates by those involved in Florida's previous high-speed rail plans indicate as many as 15,000 construction jobs could be required for the Tampa-Orlando leg. Florida's Department of Transportation estimates more than 20,000 would be created over four years for the Orlando-Miami link.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/sep/27/co-high-hopes-for-high-speed-rail/news-politics/#

Would you be so kind as to give us the DIRECT job creation numbers for your supported commuter project that would only transport 3,500 people per day?

According to the City of Orlando:

260,000 jobs statewide and $9 billion in economic benefit

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:VtGax5KJUUoJ:www.righttrackflorida.org/_resources/browse/file/Dyer%2520Support%2520Letter%2520to%2520external%2520audiences%2520FINAL.pdf+sunrail+job+creation&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNHny6_sA7G9VdWuFZlpIHSAV_nnYw

So that would be more. Hmmm now which one would cost more again?

The one with 15,000 jobs, most of which will be temporary (construction jobs), that will take you from Tampa to Orlando for $30 one way.

I still question the region planned for this system. LRT is a better fit for what is planned not HSR and if Mr LaHood 's comments are correct.....putting Sunrail and HSR in the same basket seems a bit narrow minded to me!Two different systems with the same purpose.......people moving transportation!

LRT connecting Tampa and Orlando would not be a good fit either.  The best fit is commuter rail or working with Amtrak to increase the frequency of trains running between these two cities.  Both would save money by using existing track and they would hit a larger segment of the region's population by running through the heart of Central Florida's largest cities.  If a link from Orlando's airport to Disney and the theme parks is desired, just build one as a part of a local Orlando LRT system that would be complemented by intercity rail.

LRT would fit, but it would have to return to it's Interurban railroad roots. Larger cars, lounge with lite meals, and station stops, in the heart of each town. Most LRT today is simply large versions of "streetcar" in both design and function. It doesn't have to be that way, and it sure as heck doesn't have to stop every 3 - 5 miles. Working with companies such as ABB or Bombardier, traditional interurban (what they now call LRT).

Traditional Interurban's, had coach and first class seating, restrooms, express and baggage, and many offered lounge or lite meal services. They could sprint from a town or city on their own private right-of-way, reaching speeds in excess of 90 mph. On encountering the next town, the tracks would often merge with a main street and go right down the median to the station somewhere in the core. After the quick stop they'd roll on to the edge of town, regain private trackage and run like hell to the next town.

So the interurban's of old, might be said to have been the first High Speed Rail/Streetcar hybrids, something it seems that we have forgot. Perhaps grandpa wasn't as crazy as we think he was? To pull this off Florida would have to think out of the box... when it's painfully apparent we can't even think within the box!  

OCKLAWAHA

Do you think it would be financially feasible to convert CSX's line to an electrified interurban route?  It would seem for a start up you could get just about the same service by upgrading Amtrak instead of immediately bearing the cost and process of electrifying the rail line.

Lake, it really would take a complete economic study. While it would run a couple of million a mile to string catenary (wires), the O&M costs drop through the floor. We would also have to know if the revamped Amtrak system from ORL to TPA, is carrying enough traffic to warrant 1 car trains, or 14 car trains. There is something to be said for the old interurbans running past every 40 minutes, with full services, on many of their trains, so what I'm suggesting is looking backward for a possible answer or maybe just a part of the answer. If Amtrak were to go to a system of SFT Short-Fast-Trains, (what the FEC used for years in freight), and if those trains were well patronized, then electric would be the next logical step. Since with electric you need NO SPACE for an engine within a carbody, (everything is under the floor), you get much better equipment utilization. Thoughts?

OCKLAWAHA

Ock..........makes sense to me! Using existing tracks to me is the key.......no additional tracks unless ridership indicates the need for the expansion. So the cost of something would be greatly reduced, just the cars and the scheduling to enable the passenger side to exist. To me that makes more sense than an abbreviated system of HSR that is proposed for the Orlando region. State should be helping on the cost of the Sunrail system and expand as needed.........but that just me!

Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2009, 11:34:01 PM
According to the City of Orlando:

260,000 jobs statewide and $9 billion in economic benefit

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:VtGax5KJUUoJ:www.righttrackflorida.org/_resources/browse/file/Dyer%2520Support%2520Letter%2520to%2520external%2520audiences%2520FINAL.pdf+sunrail+job+creation&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNHny6_sA7G9VdWuFZlpIHSAV_nnYw

Hmmm, a letter by Buddy Dyer, the mayor of Orlando that doesn't even state a reputable source for such far-out numbers.....

Don't forget you are talking to an economist here,......no pulling wool over my eyes. I asked you for the direct jobs created, no future spin-off jobs that are highly dependent on economic acitivity. If those numbers did come out of a study done in 2005, it was based on continued boom conditions in Florida. May I remind you that there has been a down turn in economic activity, which means investors are reluctant to invest,......therefor the direct jobs for construction are the only ones we can count on at this point.

As for the economic impact of the DIRECT jobs created by HSR:

Quote$11.7 billion in wages and salaries and $34.1
billion in additional economic activity and a $5.7 billion of other
benefits."

http://www.cefa.fsu.edu/news_rail.html

Note the reputable source, and the total of about $50 billion. These are 2002 numbers, so they ought to be adjusted for inflation.

Wow, more than a five-fold advantage of HSR DIRECT economic impact over "wishful-thinking" future economic impact of Sunrail, aka developer's bonanza.

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 07, 2009, 09:18:13 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2009, 11:34:01 PM
According to the City of Orlando:

260,000 jobs statewide and $9 billion in economic benefit

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:VtGax5KJUUoJ:www.righttrackflorida.org/_resources/browse/file/Dyer%2520Support%2520Letter%2520to%2520external%2520audiences%2520FINAL.pdf+sunrail+job+creation&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNHny6_sA7G9VdWuFZlpIHSAV_nnYw

Hmmm, a letter by Buddy Dyer, the mayor of Orlando that doesn't even state a reputable source for such far-out numbers.....

Don't forget you are talking to an economist here,......no pulling wool over my eyes. I asked you for the direct jobs created, no future spin-off jobs that are highly dependent on economic acitivity. If those numbers did come out of a study done in 2005, it was based on continued boom conditions in Florida. May I remind you that there has been a down turn in economic activity, which means investors are reluctant to invest,......therefor the direct jobs for construction are the only ones we can count on at this point.

You're an economist so don't let the kool aid bubbling as a HSR train cloud your vision.  Since you're not going to believe anything the Sunrail backers claim any way, why bother on my part?  Nevertheless, what do you think SUnrail's "direct" job creation numbers will be?  Keep in mind this should include all of the projects financed by the deal (ex. JaxPort intermodal railyard, Jax's Springfield bypass, the Winter Haven railyard, the CSX S line track capacity upgrades and Sunrail's construction).

QuoteAs for the economic impact of the DIRECT jobs created by HSR:

Quote$11.7 billion in wages and salaries and $34.1
billion in additional economic activity and a $5.7 billion of other
benefits."

http://www.cefa.fsu.edu/news_rail.html

Note the reputable source, and the total of about $50 billion. These are 2002 numbers, so they ought to be adjusted for inflation.

Wow, more than a five-fold advantage of HSR DIRECT economic impact over "wishful-thinking" future economic impact of Sunrail, aka developer's bonanza.

Lol, they ought to be adjusted for reality.  Anyway, perhaps Florida will get both, since they are tied together in the eyes of the feds.

thelakelander, I am a past contributing writer for Science Progress, and I just found this interesting article by another contributing writer, that should give you some food for thought:

QuoteHigh Speed Rail for High-Tech Economic Development
Multiple studies have advocated for improving and modernizing the U.S. rail network as a way to spur economic growth, rein in sprawl, and make a strong commitment to sustainability. One such report, focusing on Boston, found that quality regional transportation played a significant role in fueling life sciences research.

For decades, Japan and Europe have deployed high-speed rail systems, which consist of trains that average over 125 mph. The closest we come to such a network in the United States is Amtrak’s Acela Express service, a train with an average speed, 86 mph, that is dwarfed by that of many international competitors, like France’s TGV trains, which average 173 mph.

Several states have recently announced, or are in the process of building, high speed rail lines. The federal government should embrace these projects and support them financially, recognizing that they can play an important role in sustaining the innovation and business networks that serve as the bedrock of the 21st century American economy. Here are a few proposed around the country:

An $18 billion to $20 billion project envisions 200-mph trains running throughout the “Texas T-Bone,” from Dallas/Fort Worth to Austin, San Antonio, and Houston. According to the Secretary of the Texas High Speed Rail and Transportation Corporation, “this system will create thousands of permanent jobs and attract a significant amount of investment, helping to ensure the continued growth of Texas’ economy.”

On election day this past November 4th, California voters approved a ballot proposition that authorized $9 billion in bond funding for an 800-mile intercity high speed rail network that will carry passengers from San Francisco to Los Angeles in 2 hours and 38 minutes. A report released in 2008 by the Bay Area Council Economic Institute found that “the high-speed train service can help Bay Area businesses expand their markets within California by providing more efficient access throughout the state.”

In the research and development phase, the Ohio Hub is a proposed 860-mile high speed rail network that will connect the major Ohio commercial centers of Cincinnati, Columbus, and Cleveland with southern Ontario, Detroit, and other smaller cities. A report evaluating the economic impact of the proposed network found that “in the communities linked by the system, the project will create a new business environment that will be attractive to ‘New Economy’ (high tech mobile industry, frequently related to computer, telecommunications, and professional services businesses).”

A 2000 Florida referendum authorized funding for the phased development of a statewide HSR network, although a later referendum repealed that funding. A 2007 Florida State University study estimated that the “benefits of a statewide high speed rail program could range from $39 to $51 billion,” primarily by encouraging business connections between centers of industry.

For more on innovation clusters and tech-based economic development, see our “Regional Centers of Innovation 101.”

Posted by Justin R. Masterman | January 30, 2009 |

http://www.scienceprogress.org/2009/01/high-speed-rail/


Note the rein in sprawl vs promote or buy into sprawl

Faye, as mentioned before, I'm not against HSR.  I'm actually a fan.  I just view the current Tampa/Orlando plan as a poor one that's expensive enough to kill all of Florida's other rail plans if it fails (which it has a pretty good chance to do).

Quote from: thelakelander on October 07, 2009, 09:49:37 PM
Faye, as mentioned before, I'm not against HSR.  I'm actually a fan.  I just view the current Tampa/Orlando plan as a poor one that's expensive enough to kill all of Florida's other rail plans if it fails (which it has a pretty good chance to do).

The same rationale applies to Sunrail. In fact it's killed the appetite of ardent rail supporters because of it's secretive, corporate welfare kinda dealings, low ridership, and it's only objective seemingly the creation of ridership through added developers' bonanza.

But it's good to hear you are a fan of HSR.

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 07, 2009, 10:28:55 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on October 07, 2009, 09:49:37 PM
Faye, as mentioned before, I'm not against HSR.  I'm actually a fan.  I just view the current Tampa/Orlando plan as a poor one that's expensive enough to kill all of Florida's other rail plans if it fails (which it has a pretty good chance to do).

The same rationale applies to Sunrail. In fact it's killed the appetite of ardent rail supporters because of it's secretive, corporate welfare kinda dealings, low ridership, and it's only objective seemingly the creation of ridership through added developers' bonanza.

But it's good to hear you are a fan of HSR.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with well planned HSR.  Especially, when you have local rail connections to feed it with riders or its built in areas with transit supportive land uses and densities.

As for Sunrail, do you not believe the deal will lead to thousands of new industrial, port and distribution jobs across the state?  Personally, I think the positives on this side of the deal are worth more than Orlando getting a commuter rail train.

However, if I had my choice, from a passenger rail standpoint, I'd kill both Sunrail and HSR and substitute them with a statewide Amtrak Florida corridor service.

Quote from: stephendare on October 07, 2009, 10:39:14 PM
Faye.  you must not have seen my question.  Do you think that airports are industrial centers?

Stephen. though I haven't immersed myself in airports much, my own environmental concerns force me to say we need to reduce air travel, as it's THE most carbon emission intensive travel mode.

Quote from: stephendare on October 07, 2009, 11:15:51 PM
well your colleague mentioned that one of the benefits of high speed rail was to connect industrial centers.

Doesnt the HSR route connect airports instead?

Ah, the initial route will be from DT Tampa to ORL airport. I am sure other connections will emerge.

Its very interesting because it (the Tampa/Orlando link, not HSR in general) will have nothing to do with industrial centers.  Sunrail does because the money CSX gets will be invested in upgrading freight rail capacity throughout the state and enhancing JaxPort.  Is there anyone here who will claim that better rail capacity will not stimulate more private sector industrial investment, which in turn typically creates well paying jobs.  However, HSR will be built down the middle of I-4.  That's a corridor more known for service jobs (hotels, theme parks, restaurants, retail, gas, etc.).  Unless DT Tampa, Disney or Orlando's airport plan on building industrial parks around their stations and letting freight trains use HSR infrastructure, it won't have the type of impact your asking about Stephen.

Stephen, that's not what I am saying.

the article talks about HSR playing a role in innovation clusters and tech-based economic development. It shows that in Boston, we have a life sciences research cluster that presumably was furthered by the Acela availability.

What clusters might emerge in Tampa or Orlando remains to be seen, but it is intriguing to see how one type of innovation spurs other clustered innovation.

Well stated Stephen, I think we, You, Lake and I, all agree, that we'd cash in both the HSR and Sunrail for a comprehensive Amtrak Corridor System linking all of Florida's major cities with 5 - 10 round trips daily.

Faye, as an economist, I can't believe you would be led down this rosy path to HSR hell, without kicking in a few doors, and checking out the contents. Science Progress, not withstanding, I have yet to see you quote from: Progressive Railroading, Railway Age, Trains, International Railway Journal, Passenger Train Journal or Railway Magazines. This is the authoritative source on the industry, and they are not looking very favorably at the Orlando-Tampa HSR project. In fact, I have read over and over things like, "Florida has got to get it's act together," or "For a State that won't support rail to expect...etc..." Got to say, the Neanderthals in Tallahassee have asked for it.

The magazine you quote and the articles about Boston, are sort of like standing Orlando and Tampa next to Sao Paulo, Tokyo or Mexico City. Hardly the same thing. Boston has an entrenched culture of Mass Transit. Streetcars, subways, trolley bus, bus, BRT, water taxis, commuter rail, corridor rail, Amtrak long distance, and I have probably still left out a few. NOTHING like anything in Florida, not apples to oranges, more like watermelons, to grapes.

Lake, one thing Sunrail would do even in these depressed market times. Commuter rail, done well, (and for that price it better be done well), will enjoy much of the same TOD benefits that Light Rail attracts. Not as much as LRT maybe, but more then Amtrak, Skyways, or BRT will ever bring in. As you know, right in the middle of this huge economic dip, cities with new LRT lines are experiencing building booms. I don't think Orlando would be any different. Perhaps we should suggest a HSR network AL la MJ? Sounds like a story to me, since we'd actually include JACKSONVILLE!  

OCKLAWAHA

Well the general concensus appears to be " We need rail for masstransit"......that part is pretty  much of a gimme! Beyond that everyone has their own interpretation of just what that means! Most of us appear to question just whether or not that the Orlando/St Pete region is the one to showpiece just what rail can do. I keep coming back to making use of what we have in place right this moment, not building a new system in the middle of I4,even though it was set up that way for either rail or auto lanes, but using what is in place now. Amtrak probably has a shot at getting something up and running in a relatively short period, St Augustine and station, so why are we not pushing for an East Coast revival of not so long past Passanger Rail. Rails are already in place, matter of scheduling. I don't have a problem with HSR if its used as intended which is High Speed Rail, but a lousy 73 mile stretch is not a viable example nor is it a great showpiece for tourist attraction. This is basically a standalone system which may be connected to Miami and then maybe connected to elsewhere. I think we need to take a breath and really look at what we want, what is needed ,what can we afford, form a concensus and take it from there!

Quote from: stephendare on October 07, 2009, 09:47:17 PM
So.  Faye. 

Do you think that the airports are industry centers?

actually yes....OIA and downtown Tampa would qualify under the statement of "encouraging business connections between centers of industry"

For example, the OIA area is the hopsitality and transportation industry....downtown Tampa is home to the corporate banking industry...and obviously I-Drive and Disney would also be the convention and hospitality industry

Be careful what you suggest here Stephen, next thing you know, Tallahassee will be extolling the virtues of Baptist fishermen and their need for HSR, over those of Jacksonville.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 08, 2009, 09:18:37 AM

Quote from: stephendare on October 07, 2009, 09:47:17 PM
So.  Faye. 

Do you think that the airports are industry centers?

actually yes....OIA and downtown Tampa would qualify under the statement of "encouraging business connections between centers of industry"

For example, the OIA area is the hopsitality and transportation industry....downtown Tampa is home to the corporate banking industry...and obviously I-Drive and Disney would also be the convention and hospitality industry

tufsu1, that is a strong existing economic justification to the current HSR plans. Thanks for making that point. I read the Science Progress article to mean that additional innovative business clusters would emerge from HSR availability.

But you are absolutely right that there is already ample economic activity that would be connected by HSR, whereas Sunrail would just connect bedroom communities to limited DT workplaces. It's in response to sprawl, rather than an effort to reduce sprawl as the HSR would do.

Interesting take Faye. I do think Sunrail is a reaction to sprawl but I also think it would help build up areas developed as sprawl into more sustainable models.

Have we seen prospective Transit Oriented Developments targeted for this possible HSR?

Is the new ROW the main reason HSR is so much more costly or the technology?

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 09:57:25 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 08, 2009, 09:55:46 AM
Be careful what you suggest here Stephen, next thing you know, Tallahassee will be extolling the virtues of Baptist fishermen and their need for HSR, over those of Jacksonville.  

OCKLAWAHA

ock are you acquainted with the acronym "LMAO"?

Oh yeah! HA!  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: JeffreyS on October 08, 2009, 10:20:51 AM
Interesting take Faye. I do think Sunrail is a reaction to sprawl but I also think it would help build up areas developed as sprawl into more sustainable models.

Have we seen prospective Transit Oriented Developments targeted for this possible HSR?

JeffreyS, you are right,........I have not seen any studies outlining prospective Transit Oriented Developments targeted for Florida HSR. That's why I was pleased to see the ScienceProgress article linking one type of innovation with the emergence of other types of innovation.

Maybe the federal government ought to capitalize on the HSR linked emerging opportunities to spur innovation clusters:

QuoteAs nations around the world race to copy U.S. economic success, it is a startling fact that the United States has never devoted even a single penny to direct national support for regional innovation clusters -- perhaps the key critical component of our future national economic competitiveness. Yet we know that regional clusters work when competitive community strengths are improved through the existence of local, shared advantages that continually spill over as specialists in the same and different high-tech fields look for the next generation of innovation, pushed by competitors, pulled by customers and prodded by suppliers.

What are the kinds of advantages shared by the participants in clusters? They could be a set of workers who boast particular skills, such as building boats in Maine with the latest new materials. Or community colleges that offer training to manufacturing workers in places where advanced manufacturers locate. Or research centers that conduct basic research into biotechnology close to start-up biotechnology companies. Or major industries such as aerospace that spin off new technologies that become new innovations peddled by new companies worldwide.

State governments are the primary funders of programs to help federally funded basic research make its way into job-creating innovation-led companies, yet today 47 out of 50 states face serious budget shortfalls. That's why local leadership needs federal support. The federal government can frame critical national challenges, such as clean energy and advanced manufacturing, and can facilitate the flow of information and expertise to and between regions. Washington can help finance, in a competitive and leveraged fashion, valuable activities that clusters would otherwise be unable to undertake -- and do it with relatively little money. Indeed, the requested $100 million pales alongside that $150 billion spent on R&D annually and the roughly $650 million spent on programs that indirectly (and historically often incoherently) work with regional clusters.

A modest federal investment in a national cluster development program to focus federal spending on what community innovation leaders on the ground know could work better and would multiply the benefits of our existing federal innovation programs. Coordinating these efforts around cluster strengths would help make other federal innovation efforts infinitely more effective. An valuable regional innovation clusters program should support local leadership with a three-part approach:

- Competitive grants that clusters can use to bolster their stressed resources

- Information networks to help clusters gather the data they need to create their own strategies

- Coordination of diverse federal programs to align federal resources more tightly with cluster priorities.

This is good public policy -- and good political leadership that marries the strength of our nation's many competitive community clusters to our famed research prowess and dynamic entrepreneurial culture.


Jonathan Sallet and Ed Paisley are co-authors of the recent paper published by the Center for American Progress titled "The Geography of Innovation: The Federal Government and the Growth of Regional Innovation Clusters."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-sallet/innovation-clusters-creat_b_293603.html

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 10:41:01 AM
This is really a great idea, Faye.

Which innovation cluster would you have in mind?

This would be another long range/medium range program?

Sorry to disappoint you,.......I'm not an expert of innovation clusters. One cluster type does come to mind for Florida though,.......did you know that Florida is fourth in the nation for the bio-medical industry?

That's why it was so appalling that there is a state "ban" on embryonic stem cell research,......making the bio-medical climate in Florida less state of the art for new investors than some of the other bio-medical intense states..

BTW your tone seems rather mocking,.......is that how you mean it to be?

I like Big Picture thinking that is in line with a sustainable economic future. That's my philosophy, take it or leave it.

(http://www.ingetec.com.co/imagenes/fotos-proyectos/metro-2.jpg)
On days like this I sure wish I was back in the 3Rd World... oh wait, I am! Florida!

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 08, 2009, 10:08:24 AM
tufsu1, that is a strong existing economic justification to the current HSR plans. Thanks for making that point. I read the Science Progress article to mean that additional innovative business clusters would emerge from HSR availability.

But you are absolutely right that there is already ample economic activity that would be connected by HSR, whereas Sunrail would just connect bedroom communities to limited DT workplaces. It's in response to sprawl, rather than an effort to reduce sprawl as the HSR would do.

A sustainable economic future? Faye, sorry girl but you are absolutely deluded on this issue. The number of flight crews running turnaround's to Orlando, with a plan to see Disney by train must be staggering. Meanwhile you have left the 1.5 Million folks in Orlando to fend for themselves on the only through route in Central Florida, is it because Mica supports the commuter rail plan? This sounds like pure partisan politics at it's worst, or your whole platform is emotion based at best.

How would a train, or highway, or canal for that matter, that completely misses the population centers between point A and B, help curb sprawl? It's the railroad equivalent to I-295, built to go around the city, today it's part of the city. Why? Because the City will always expand to reach the newest transportation arterial. In this case, you want to build a "national showcase," but look at the miles from I-4 to Kissimmee, Haines City, Auburndale, Lakeland, Plant City, and tell me with a straight face that developers won't dive in to be the first planned community with a HSR core. Crazy thing is, even when they fill in every acre, it will still be stumbling financially, because how many people in Auburndale, work at OIA? Disney? or the middle of a highway interchange in Tampa?

I don't believe for a minute that tufsu1 really thinks this is the "national showcase" HSR either. He knows how the game is played and hopes for a continued paycheck.  

QuoteA strong existing economic justification to the current HSR plans.

What economic justification, outside of raiding the US treasury of $2.5 Billion dollars so a few dozen tourists will get a different view of Green Swamp. Those numbers are so cooked as to fade off the pages of the reports.

QuoteI read the Science Progress article to mean that additional innovative business clusters would emerge from HSR availability.

...and if they do, since the whole thing is in the middle of nowhere, it will become the largest engine for sprawl that Central Florida has seen since Disney announced his "Magic Kingdom." Anything that develops along the high speed/I-4 route will be Sprawl, because unlike Sunrail, it's not designed to carry the demand that is already in place, it seeks to create it's own new age demands.

QuoteBut you are absolutely right that there is already ample economic activity that would be connected by HSR,

We must be missing something, I see an Airport, a Convention Center (a place where LRT would be far superior to HSR as the damn train will hardly get up to 50 mph from one to the other), an amusement park, some stations way north of the little towns where the roads pass over or under the expressway (the pine lumber industry), and a jail in Tampa, but not the transportation center. WTF?

Quotewhereas Sunrail would just connect bedroom communities to limited DT workplaces.

This is where I think your emotional war path has led you astray. "just connect bedroom communities to limited downtown workplaces..." Holy crap, THATS WHAT TRANSIT IS SUSPOSED TO DO! Yes! Connect those in bedroom communities to LIMITED DOWNTOWN work space. From your own words, it is anti-sprawl. If your thinking the only riders are those that live or work along the route, then you are discounting the dozens of bus routes, that will feed into the system. Buses that today are making the long bumper to bumper trek into downtown Orlando for the Lynx center, will no longer have to do that. Building Sunrail would be like getting a whole new fleet of buses that can be redeployed to make commutes more resident friendly. Somehow I don't see the same thing happening 8 miles north of Poinciana on I-4.

QuoteIt's in response to sprawl, rather than an effort to reduce sprawl as the HSR would do.

So the migration of the downtowns of every community from Orlando to Tampa, from their current core's to I-4 is an effort to reduce sprawl? Service to those already living in built up area's, to carry them into limited downtown workplaces, is just a reaction to Sprawl?

Me thinkith you have this backwards.



OCKLAWAHA

Ock, it sounds like you're becoming an urban planner.

Gonna be damn funny when you and I switch chairs! I'm not sure this town is ready for us. LOL

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 11:05:00 AM
well its not really mocking.

Its more leading.

Im hoping that you become a rail advocate.  And not just a rail enthusiast, but smart about it, and able to discriminate between good, bad, and mediocre projects.

Its so important to the future of this country that we get it right.

Good, bad, and mediocre projects depend on vantage point and objectives, as well as getting good value for our tax payer dollars.

I am already a Rail advocate. Have been showing my passion ever since I spoke at a local meeting with Senator Jim King, Rep. Procter and other legislators.

My citizen activism has long been proven on stem cell research and healthcare for all, and is in full swing for rail as well.

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 09:20:51 AM
Well under those definitions of industry, we could connect the fishing industry of pottsburg creek to the spiritual industry of Callahan First Baptist couldnt we?

actually Stephen...both commercial fishing and religious institutions are defined industries according to the Federal government  ;)

Now to be fair, there is a burgeoning health/biotech district being built in Orlando...called Lake Nona...and it is pretty much in the middle of nowhere (suburbia)....is this something that should be served by local, regional, and/or intercity rail?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 08, 2009, 11:35:37 AM
...., is it because Mica supports the commuter rail plan? This sounds like pure partisan politics at it's worst,.....

Ock, I have given you my reasons, and they are sound. Let me repeat:

QuoteIn fact it's ( Sunrail) killed the appetite of ardent rail supporters because of it's secretive, corporate welfare kinda dealings, low ridership, and it's only objective seemingly the creation of ridership through added developers' bonanza.

One could even say that it's Mica who wants this for political reasons,......after all the line runs right through his backyard and he's known to be a good corporate servant.

Left-leaning OrlandoWeekly, which would otherwise be supportive of public transportation and thus Sunrail has stated similar concerns, which I will repost below. My question is: why such a reluctance to rework the deal in all transparency to take care of the concerns that even pro-rail folks have with Sunrail?

Here is Orlando Weekly's take again:

Quote6/25/2009          

News

Rail is dead. Long live rail
Why SunRail's demise isn't a bad thing    

By Jeffrey C. Billman

Barring an 11th-hour reprieve, on June 30 the state’s deal with CSX for a 61.5-mile, $600 million-plus commuter rail line between DeLand and Poinciana will officially go the way of the dinosaur. With it goes the aspirations and spent political capital of the legion of lawmakers who spent years pushing for SunRail â€" especially Orlando Mayor Buddy and U.S. Rep. John Mica, a Republican who has spent decades in Washington securing federal money for mass transit, only to watch the locals screw it up.

In the end, SunRail drowned in a toxic stew of Tallahassee political machinations, parochialism and a recession that sucked the life out of most big-ticket items (save Dyer’s venues, of course). After losing a climactic vote in the state Senate in May, dejected SunRail supporters threw a temper tantrum that any toddler would admire. Orlando city commissioner Patty Sheehan blamed the “knuckle-dragging Neanderthals” in the state Legislature.

“I think the forces of evil have won,” Dyer added. Perhaps there’s truth to the idea that conservatives’ knee-jerk opposition to spending on infrastructure improvements doomed SunRail. But if SunRail’s supporters want someone to blame, they should find a mirror.

SunRail’s many shortcomings are rooted in this simple fact: After the collapse of light rail almost a decade ago, our leaders were so desperate to get something done that they gave away the store   (not unlike the new arena deal with the Orlando Magic, one could argue). The deal as presently conceived is a boondoggle, a corporate giveaway, an expensively ill-conceived effort that will subsidize exurban sprawl and do little to take cars off I-4.

We can do better. SunRail’s demise affords us that opportunity.

Back in 2006, the state’s Department of Transportation agreed to pay CSX $432 million for 61.5 miles of track. FDOT planned to invest another $173 million in improvement. According to critics, the cumulative capital investment of $615 million â€" $10 million per mile â€" makes this the most expensive rail purchase in U.S. history. Mica promised that the feds would pick up half, with the state and local governments splitting the rest. In turn, the state would lease the track back to CSX for off-hour freight runs at a fraction of the state’s maintenance costs.

To sweeten the deal â€" $10 million per mile isn’t sweet enough, apparently â€" the state also agreed to pay for any accidents associated with the rail line, even if CSX were at fault. If a CSX freight train crashed, Florida taxpayers would have been on the hook. State CFO Alex Sink said she wasn’t sure the state could find an insurer to underwrite that $200 million policy.

This deal, negotiated in secret, is the very definition of corporate welfare. And taxpayers wouldn’t get much in return. At best, projections forecast 3,500 daily riders   â€" barely a dent in I-4 traffic â€" on a train that would top out at 45 mph and stop every three miles or so. It wouldn’t get you where you were going very fast. And if your ultimate destination weren’t within walking distance, you’d have to hop on the LYNX bus. As anyone who’s relied on LYNX can attest, that’s not a heart-warming prospect [see “Take the keys,” April 19, 2007].

SunRail supporters cast it as a down payment on what this region really needs: an intermodal network of light rail lines, buses and other mass transportation options that would efficiently link downtown, UCF, the airport, International Drive, Innovation Way and whatever other employment and entertainment hot spots emerge. Ideally, this network would hook up to federally funded high-speed rail lines that crisscross the state and render the car irrelevant â€" or at least, less necessary.

Commuter rail doesn’t do that. It subsidizes those who choose to live in the hinterlands. It papers over the poor growth-management decisions of yesteryear rather than encouraging smart growth. It’s not a cure; it’s a Band-Aid.

Light rail was a good idea torpedoed by special interests and political cowardice. Commuter rail was supposed to be the cheaper, more digestible alternative. Now that it too has imploded, maybe it’s time to step back and re-evaluate our options: If we’re going to spend the money, why not spend it on something that would actually work?

jbillman@orlandoweekly.com

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/story.asp?id=13255

None of what is said in this article can be denied. And I am disappointed at you all that you don't see that rail supporters would be against this particular deal for the above reasons. The fact that you all want Sunrail at all cost, regardless of the facts above is really weird.

And again, I lived in Poinciana, I know of which I speak. Terrible decision living way out there. Many people who live there eventually move into Orlando.

I'm done here, I've got better things to do with my time.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/champion39.gif)

(http://www.lnrailroad.net/Lan3.jpg)
The Dixie Flyer, JAX-ATL, "in the hole" back in the days... (The hole, is railroad slang for taking the side track to meet another train). The Coast Line baked Chicken wasn't to be missed.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/FRISCOKCFLSpecmeetsinSpringfield.jpg)
The Birmingham-Memphis-KCY, Kansas City-Florida Special, headed to Jacksonville in better days.  

(http://wconnolly.com/Favorites/Model%20Railroading/Miami_Rail_Depot_2.jpg)
East Coast Champion, at Miami, THIS is what the FEC once had.

A system of conventional Amtrak trains, expandable to jet, turbo or electric would do more then the sum of all of these schemes:

Jacksonville-Daytona-Melbourne-Ft. Pierce-West Palm-Ft. Lauderdale-Miami
5 trains daily, two through to and from New York/Miami. Southbound departures from Jacksonville at:

6:00 am
9:00 am
1:00 pm
4:30 pm
11:59 pm

With similar departures Northbound out of Miami.

Jacksonville-Baldwin-Tallahassee-Pensacola-Mobile-Gulf Port-New Orleans, 5 trains daily each way. Two operate all the way through, one turns back at Pensacola and the other 2 turn at Tallahassee.

Leaving Jacksonville:

6:00 am
8:30 am
4:00 pm
6:00 pm
9:00 pm

With similar departures Eastbound from New Orleans, Pensacola and Tallahassee.


Jacksonville-Baldwin-Starke-Waldo-Ocala-Lakeland-Tampa/Orlando/Miami

7:00 am to Miami
9:30 am to Tampa
11:30 am to Miami
2:00 pm to Orlando
6:20 pm to Tampa

Jacksonville-Yukon-Green Cove Springs-Orlando-Lakeland-Tampa/Winter Haven-West Palm-Miami

(http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/speeds/championec194106b.gif)

8:45 am to Tampa (with through cars to Ft. Myers/Naples).
8:55 am to Miami
10:00 am to Tampa (and continues on to Sarasota/Venice).
4:30 pm to Miami
11:45 pm to Tampa

Jacksonville-Shand's-23Rd Street-Busch-JIA conector-Yulee (connecting bus to JIA, and at Yulee for Fernandina and Kingsland/St. Marys/Kings Bay NS)

Inbound in the AM, and outbound in the PM, with a few counter flow RDC trians.
Service every hour, about 5am - 1 am

Jacksonville-Baldwin-Starke-Alachua-Gainesville
Morning and evening trains, inbound to Jax in the am and outbound in the pm.

Tampa (Union Station)-Lakeland-Winter Haven-West Palm-Miami

6:00 am
8:00 am via Bartow
11:00 am
4:00 pm wia Bartow
7:00 pm


"Don't try this at home, we are, what you call professionals" (Jamie Hyneman-Adam Savage) But this little batch of five daily round trips, gives you a sneak peek at what Amtrak - JTA - MJ and I are pushing for. We/I/they, also have an extensive plan of connectivity which would expand the Florida corridors to reach out and touch the Southeastern USA, reviving many of the classic rail routes, including Jacksonville to:

Waycross-Brimingham-Memphis
Savannah-Charleston-Norfolk
Valdosta-Atlanta-Cincinnati-Chicago/Detroit/Cleveland-Buffalo
Valdosta-Atlanta-Nashville-Louisville-Indy-Chicago
Savannah-Columbia-Charlotte-NYC

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 04:58:17 PM
Ock, for this short of a distance, is high Speed Rail a good application?

It seems like it might even be quicker to shoot people out of cannons.

I take it we have pissed Faye off, she isn't getting converts on a poorly planned HSR system, by attacking what will probably turn out to be the best idea in Central Florida's transportation history - SUNRAIL. While I do not agree with some of the promises being made and certain details of the plan, fact is Sunrail, will create more density, urban infill, TODS, and walkability to the communities it serves. HSR will do NONE OF THAT, not because it is HSR, but because it doesn't go where the people of Central Florida live, or where they are going.

That short segment Stephen, is crazy, why would you want a train that can accelerate to 200+ mph, to suddenly stop at the end of the "runway?" So it will leave OIA, get up to 50-60 mph, then stop at International Drive for the Convention Center Station. Then accelerate up to perhaps 100-110, before it slows and stops in RAT WORLD. Finally free of Orlando, the only thing that will get on that train is dust.

This is so typical of Florida and it's politicians, Faye included, to be placed under a spell of "free money," and being only too ready to suggest the end justifies the means. The means in this case being a plan for another train to nowhere.

American woman, mama let me be
Don’t come knockin’ around my door
Don’t wanna see your shadow no more
Coloured lights can hypnotize
Sparkle someone else’s eyes
Now woman, I said get away
American woman, listen what I say.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 04:25:57 PM
has the planning and endless consultancy industry been identified by the feds yet?

Or are they waiting to get done with the bankers first? :)

yes...Architecture/Engineering firms are also an industry.

You may wish to do a google/wikipedia serch on Standard Industry Classification (SIC) codes

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 05:52:23 PM
is 10 million dollar a mile the most that has ever been paid for rail in the history of the known world?

I'll bite....not even close.....new light rail lines often cost $10+ million per mile, not including ROW

That said, the article is somewhat misleading....one could argue that FDOT is spending $615 for 61.5 miles....but the truth is relocating CSX freight trains also enable commuter rail in the Tampa and Jax. regions....so the associated length might be closer to 150 miles!

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 06:51:55 PM
Thats what I thought.  Of course thats something that Faye wouldnt have known.   Its just shoddy journalism and political jingoism given credence by a credulous writer.  Thats one of my favorite things from hanging out with you professional types.   I learn so much.

Why wouldn't Faye know?  Its been one of the major selling points of Sunrail to the rest of the Florida.  Plus, we've run a ton of articles on how Northeast Florida benefits from the Sunrail deal for years now.  Commuter rail aside, remember the whole Jax port rail capacity issue?  The money to pay for their planned intermodal railyard near the Mitsui and Hajin terminals will come from the Sunrail deal.  That plan also calls for a new freight rail bypass to go around the urban core, thus indirectly freeing up existing Northside rail lines for potential commuter use.

Ock.....best plan to date! I think what you posted makes more sense that 2.5 Billion for HSR in the middle of the state without room to expand or tracks in place! I have already posted "make use of what we have, prove the concept and then expand"......not real comfortable with the Orlando region proposal not matter how it is slanted money,jobs or prestige wise! Now if we can get that 7.8 Million Dollar Grant......Katy bar the door!

Of course it makes sense.  Which is probably why it isn't the leading concept for introducing frequent intercity rail service in Florida.  Take that $2.5 billion and spread it around the state with a logical plan.  People in Jacksonville, Tallahassee, Melbourne, etc. need jobs and alternative transportation options too.

Quote from: stephendare on October 08, 2009, 06:42:19 PM
in the sense referred to in Fayes link of a colleague from the science magazine?

Unless there is some trailblazing work being done by a special laboratory based around a specific school of design, I would highly doubt it.

This is why I kept telling Faye, to quit posting "Science Progress", "The Orlando Mullet Wrapper,"
"Doc Dockery," "The Berkley Barb," "The Los Angeles Free Press," and "Happy Stem Cells" as source material for HSR. One could take a scattering of great scientists and political leaders from any point in history, stand them at trackside, and they couldn't figure out how to throw a switch! It's not a slam against them, I bet none of us would know how to work the compacter on the back of our neighborhood trash truck either. IT'S A LEARNED SKILL - WITHIN ONE OF TUFSU1 INDUSTRIES.

I have some special things from Japan, surrendered to my father at the end of WWII. I have a good friend with Japanese Television who would love to help me find the officers or their families. Since everything is in California, if we can find the occupation records and ships log for those days, we have a real shot at me returning things which to them MUST hold dear memories. In the process I have been swept up in reading every Japanese account of the war I can get my hands on. I'm saying this to drive home this point. You can read all the WWII history you want from OUR SIDE, and you still won't have a F'ing clue what was REALLY going on. GO TO THE SOURCE! Stephen, you are right on about your source material.

Frankly these exchanges with Faye have worried me. To think someone so closed to any argument because bringing home 2.5 Billion to blow on a useless railroad would get her in office? Or keep her in office? I'd rather vote for someone who does their homework and is willing to consider and research the data that others have collected. MJ has a bunch of Professionals, in Transportation, Planning, Urban Planning, Parks, Ecology, Media, etc...  While our presentation might not be as smooth as Science Progress or the TU, I bet our messages carry 10x the weight. Like you said LAKE, "Why wouldn't Faye know?" It's simple, she has Skyway Syndrome, don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ouch.........Faye means well but can not see the forest for the tree's! Orlando is not the best place for true HSR but a hybrid Mouseville feeder system. Somehow I just don't think the taxpayers (US) would be getting the money's worth. For HSR to really shine.......there has to be a distance covered in a reasonable amount of time and I don't mean 73 miles worth.......we need a platform to substantiate HSR.....local systems are just that,to serve a local area or inter-urban not a city to city system! Amtrak appears to have an idea on what to do and how to do it!

High speed rail in a corridor that is less than 100 miles long is plain dumb.  An "interurban" line with a lot of separate cars and high frequency would make much more sense.

Now, a HSR line from Miami up the West coast, Naples, Sarasota, Bradenton, Tampa and an East Coast line, Jacksonville, Daytona, Melbourne, West Palm Beach, Miami...these would make sense!

Dog Walker......I concur! That makes much more sense then what was proposed for the Orlando region! I still say expansion from both ends would be a yomoma and expensive to boot! HSR is for Hgh Speed Rail and a 73 miles stretch would not let anything get up to a high speed and maintain that speed. Besides you gotta stop something and rigs traveling that fast will just not stop on a dime and give you change......takes several miles I would guess just based on simple physics!

Too bad guys you weren't giving so many expert opinions years ago when this project was getting off the ground. Thank goodness we are doing our part toward not increasing the federal deficit with such a wasted project.

No, at least not directly.  The nearest high speed rail stop will be at Orlando's airport's terminal on the northside from what I can tell.  Lake Nona is just south of the airport (the airport property is massive) along the Greenway.  From Lake Nona's location, you would have access to both the airport and Sunrail's proposed line via the Greenway.  In any event, regardless of if Sunrail or HSR comes, this project can happen.

QuoteEarlier this year, Governor Crist participated in the groundbreaking of Nemours Children’s Hospital at Lake Nona. Expected to open in 2012, the hospital plans to secure a $400-million pediatric medical campus that will strive to improve children’s health care, as well as create thousands of new jobs in Central Florida. Also in Lake Nona, a New Orlando VA Medical Center is scheduled to open in 2012. While an estimated 900 new jobs are expected to be created, the $650 million hospital also plans to have 134 inpatient beds, a 120-bed Community Living Center and a 60-bed Resident Rehabilitation Program. This million square foot facility will serve veterans in Brevard, Lake, Orange, Osceola, Seminole and Volusia counties. The new Burnham facility is 175,000 square feet and is one of the three LEED certified scientific buildings in Florida.

Four of these six counties will be served by Sunrail.  Only two by HSR and Osceola's HSR station is at Disney.  I doubt many veterans or employees at this facility will be living at the theme park.

Stephen, I mentioned this yesterday...and you scoffed at it as a valid industry

There's also a new university being built outside of Lakeland, near I-4 & the Polk Parkway.  It actually creates a problem for Lakeland.  Since HSR ignores existing development, its a good TOD site for HSR because USF Poly will be the main anchor.  However, its quite removed from the actual core of Lakeland and the other cities in Polk County.

yes..I reviewed this project for the City of Lakeland several years ago...generally they are in favor of it

You think they are in favor of placing their HSR rail station at the school site instead of something closer to town?

don't know about the HSR station...but they did like the USF/town center project.

plus,a stop there may make more sense than Kathleen Rd...although US 98 was always my preference

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 09, 2009, 08:30:59 PM
Stephen, I mentioned this yesterday...and you scoffed at it as a valid industry

Yeah, pretty ironic really.........To have this magnificent opening taking place the very next day. The title of my e-mail was "tufsu1 was right."

tufsu1, since I don't want to post here much ( don't have the time to engage in endless discussion), can you e-mail me your e-mail address so I can keep in touch?

BTW, they are now trying to trick Sunrail (which is a commuter rail project and therefor doesn't qualify for HSR funds) into the HSR application!!

I get the feeling the supporting Trirail is going to be important also when the feds consider sending transit money our way.

Kids.........I am confused for sure. Sunrail and HSR are two different modes of mass transit! The only common denominator is ...........moving people! But that is in two completely different ways.........one is a local start and stop system for urban people moving and the other is longer range people moving. I have no problem with either but to tie one to the other seems kinda narrow minded to me. If both can be funded from the 7.8 Billion Dollar grant .....great.....but I think that both would suffer over the long term with a lack of funding to be properly outfitted and operated!

The common denominator is the State of Florida.  If the State won't financially support our one existing commuter rail line and the proposed one in Orlando, then why should the feds give us additional money for any form a rail?  Its time for Florida to implement and finanically support rail instead of only talking and studying.

Lake, Stephen, agreed, Florida is at the bottom of all of these fail-rail projects, and it's the same old chase a rainbow philosophy that we have seen throughout the expressway era.

Our sometimes resident foamer for HSR, doesn't care one wit about doing it right, just so long as it carries elections, and allows for playing with $2 Billion in "free" money. The day the Skyway opened, I bet every politician in town was there for the photo opportunity. When it fell flat on it's face every one of them was suddenly in my camp, "We knew it was a bad idea..." Yeah, right. In other words there ARE politicians who would readily cash in our states transportation future, and flame a couple of Billion in the process, as long as we love them enough to keep electing them.

If Faye, and other glory blind HSR seekers gets elected, it's just going to usher in a new generation of bobble head thinkers.  

OCKLAWAHA

Gentlemen..............I concur!

Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2009, 12:18:29 AM
Actually, I scoffed at the idea of it being located at the airport or along the HSR line.

And apparently it isnt.  Unless Daytona is located differently from the last time I was there.

TUFSU, if im not sure about something or if new data comes up that challenges my thoughts, I do not have a problem asking.  I also don't mind changing my mind.  Facts are more important than my feelings about them.

well ok then...Lake Nona is about 60 miles from Daytona...and adjacent to the OIA property.

Stephen, Lake Nona is a couple of miles SE of Orlando's airport (a very large property) along the Central Florida GreeneWay.  However, it really has nothing to do with HSR or Sunrail.  You'll need to take a rubber wheeled mode of transportation to get to either one from Lake Nona.  You can read more about it at: www.learnlakenona.com

From Lake Nona, you would need to catch a taxi to Orlando's airport (until a bus route is in place) and drop $30 on a one way ticket.  The other clusters would be:

1. International Drive

Theme park central with lots of service jobs.  Unfortunately, hotel, restaurant and retail employees probably can't afford the HSR fare.

2. Disney

Disney employees get paid pennies to, so they won't be using the train daily.  If Disney shuts down their magical bus, HSR would be a decent connection to Disney.  Unfortunately, for the train, its hard to imagine Disney shutting their system or Disney tourist avoiding the free service to pay for the train trip.

3. Lakeland

The station location is still in the air.  If its located at the proposed USF Poly campus, it would serve the school and potential companies willing to locate to the Williams DRI site.  However, it would also be isolated from the actual living population and developed center of Lakeland and Polk County's other cities.

4. DT Tampa

Outside of tourism, this would be HSR's center of business activity.  However, those in DT Tampa are more likely to be heading to Tampa's airport and West Shore than to Disney World, International Drive or Orlando's airport.

This is looking more and more like a boondoggle guys!

Quote from: stephendare on October 11, 2009, 09:02:31 PM
so the HSR wouldnt connect the Lake Nona cluster to any other biotech cluster in the state?

hmm.  this is beginning to sound like the worst argument in favor of something since the invention of castor oil.

Not directly.  It will connect to HSR just as much as our Amshack station connects to DT Jax.  You'll need to either bum a ride, catch a bus or get a taxi to get to the nearest HSR station at the airport.  Walking is not an option because there are no sidewalks to the airport and the roads are set up like a circular expressway.  I'll try to upload a few aerials tomorrow.

Quote from: stephendare on October 11, 2009, 09:02:31 PM
so the HSR wouldnt connect the Lake Nona cluster to any other biotech cluster in the state?

hmm.  this is beginning to sound like the worst argument in favor of something since the invention of castor oil.

why would connecting two biotech centers be the only measure of potential?

Wouldn't connecting the UCF medical campus with the USF polytechnic campus be worthwhile...or what about connections to either to/from downtown Tampa.

No system works without connections...for example, interstates don't take people where they need to be...it requires connecting to a local street system....almost all transit would be the same way!

you and I just read the article differently...

The article said HSR could be used to connect centers of industry....we differ on 3 things regarding that statement -

1. Centers of industry does not mean just industrial
2. The centers of industry don't have to be the same types of industry
3. The connection doesn't have to be direct...just that HSR help facilitate the connection

61,758 Passengers a year board AMTRAK in Jacksonville, (with only two trains) which is FOURTH behind, 1. Sanford, 2. Orlando, 3. Tampa, 4. Miami, in that order. A national system that has survived hand to mouth for 35+ years, on less then the American taxpayers invested in the Denver Airport. Our Amshack is far from downtown.

6.3 Million a year board aircraft at JIA on 200 flights, if we funded air like we do rail, consider that on the average of just two flights daily, our airport numbers would be 63,000 a year. What does this tell you about the supposed attraction of fast air service next to regular Amtrak trains? Point to point, when all things are calculated, the train is JUST AS POPULAR as the plane! Our airport is far from downtown.

180,000 Cruise passengers a year, board in Jacksonville. Again, a very limited service schedule, and poor temporary infrastructure. Our cruise port is far from downtown.

From 1919, until 1971, the railroads averaged 15,000,000 million passengers a year at Jacksonville Terminal, in downtown! Does anyone else see a problem here?

Now these High Speed Rail numbers based on nothing but sprawl speculation, because the system misses every urban area except for Tampa, and it's hardly a LRT system for them. Don't worry though Jax, they have us in "Phase Two", where they plan to "enhance Amtrak service" to Jacksonville. Based on this history, that probably translates into the Florida East Coast train, and a new coat of paint for the Amshack.  

OCKLAWAHA

Editorial from the SP Times...it gives a pretty persuasive argument as to why SunRail, TriRail, Amtrak/FEC, and HSR do rlate to each other.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/leadership-lacking-on-high-speed-rail/1042887

An one more...this is an in-depth piece on the Lake Nona Biotech Cluster, which is adjecent to OIA

http://www.floridatrend.com/article.asp?page=1&aID=51804

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2009, 09:42:26 AM
Editorial from the SP Times...it gives a pretty persuasive argument as to why SunRail, TriRail, Amtrak/FEC, and HSR do rlate to each other.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/leadership-lacking-on-high-speed-rail/1042887

The bone that is being tossed at Jacksonville, is about 4 routes too small. The HSR long range vision map still shows a HSR mainline from Tampa to LAKE CITY, via Ocala and Gainesville. No real in depth relationship to Amtrak or commuter rail, there either. The Amtrak alignment between Tampa and Orlando, cuts right through the heart of every community while the HSR plan misses all of them. As I've said before, this will only result in places like Lakeland, Kissimmee, Haines City, building north to reach the MMHSR trains.

If our rail commitment is so strong, why has Florida allowed Amtrak to cut us from about 12/14 trains daily to just two trains. Worse still, we haven't exactly pushed to reestablish rail to Waldo - (Gainesville) - Ocala - Leesburg or Waldo. Ocala - Leesburg - Tavares - Orlando, is a very logical route, but GW cut the budget so severely that Amtrak dropped service to the central highlands of Florida. Why did the state sit on it's hands and allow CSX to rip out the Auburndale - Wildwood segment, which was the direct link between North Central Florida and Southeast Florida. The way the maps are drawn, we're about to write off not only north central Florida, as well as every town between Auburndale and West Palm Beach.

Our leadership is clueless on how to create a passenger network, and less so on how to fund it. If Florida, was doing ANYTHING but trying to grab 2.5 Billion dollars in stimulus money for a poorly planned Mickey Mouse express. We might have a shot, but Tallahassee, needs to spend some serious time in North Carolina, Virginia, California, Oregon and Washington. Rather they seem perfectly content to open the Florida East Coast route, while shutting down the Jacksonville-Orlando, route, as well as Auburndale - West Palm, and Jacksonville - Ocala - Tampa, and even Tri-Rail. They don't come much more thick headed then FDOT.  

OCKLAWAHA

It would have been nice to do it in and around the Parramore/Citrus Bowl/old magic arena area between DT and OBT.  It could have really anchored a part of Orlando's urban core in need of an economic stimulus.  Oh well....

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 10:13:36 AM
You know, tufsu, this isnt all theory.  Close doesnt count when people are having to rely on their homes and livelihoods.   Connect means it goes to.  Not near.  Not within telescope distance.  Not two transit changes away, but connects to.

I assume you think buidling commuter rail along with moving Amtrak back into the Prime Osborn is a good idea...but how many people live and work there?

Again I reiterate, transportation is all about connections!

So, in the case of Lake Nona...it means an HSR stop at the airport with local circulator shuttles to/through the community....no different than hopping on an airport shuttle to get to rental cars or remote parking.

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 11:17:25 AM
Within two miles? 80 thousand people.

sure..but very few live/work on-site...so they would still need to use some other mode of transportation to get to their final destination right?

The Prime Osborn already has downtown circulator{skyway} connected.

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2009, 11:13:53 AM

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 10:13:36 AM
You know, tufsu, this isnt all theory.  Close doesnt count when people are having to rely on their homes and livelihoods.   Connect means it goes to.  Not near.  Not within telescope distance.  Not two transit changes away, but connects to.

I assume you think buidling commuter rail along with moving Amtrak back into the Prime Osborn is a good idea...but how many people live and work there?

Again I reiterate, transportation is all about connections!

So, in the case of Lake Nona...it means an HSR stop at the airport with local circulator shuttles to/through the community....no different than hopping on an airport shuttle to get to rental cars or remote parking.

I completely agree. Stephen seems to have a misplaced idea that HSR should connect directly to a hub of innovation.

That is rarely the case.

What the ScienceProgress article was making the case for is the fact that one type of innovation (HSR) can spur and promote other types of innovation in the vacinity. I think shuttle use to and from Lake Nona to HSR is perfectly feasible.

It's Big Picture thinking that not everyone here seems ready for.

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 12, 2009, 12:21:13 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2009, 11:13:53 AM

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 10:13:36 AM
You know, tufsu, this isnt all theory.  Close doesnt count when people are having to rely on their homes and livelihoods.   Connect means it goes to.  Not near.  Not within telescope distance.  Not two transit changes away, but connects to.

I assume you think buidling commuter rail along with moving Amtrak back into the Prime Osborn is a good idea...but how many people live and work there?

Again I reiterate, transportation is all about connections!

So, in the case of Lake Nona...it means an HSR stop at the airport with local circulator shuttles to/through the community....no different than hopping on an airport shuttle to get to rental cars or remote parking.

I completely agree. Stephen seems to have a misplaced idea that HSR should connect directly to a hub of innovation.

That is rarely the case.

What the ScienceProgress article was making the case for is the fact that one type of innovation (HSR) can spur and promote other types of innovation in the vacinity. I think shuttle use to and from Lake Nona to HSR is perfectly feasible.

It's Big Picture thinking that not everyone here seems ready for.

Couldn't the same thing be done for Sunrail?  Both are a good bus ride (assuming there is a bus connection in the future with Lake Nona) away.  In any event, its better to directly hit your major activity centers with transit, especially the dense clusters.  Although adjacent to Five Points, Springfield, Riverside Avenue, San Marco Square and the Sports District, the skyway struggles to attract riders even though its integrated with PCTs to provide the final leg of the trip to a few of these locations.  If it were built in a way that provided a direct "walkable" link to these destinations, it would not struggle to attract riders.

Lake Nona won't be that type of cluster.  If it were in Metro Boston, it would somewhere out near Foxboro.  Lake Nona is sprawl although it's a better use of the land than the stuff that has gone up around the GreeneWay in the last decade or so.  USF Poly, is also sprawl.  If these projects are successful, they'll pull new development further away from the established core of their communities.  To compare them to Jax, these centers would represent our Southpoint/Deerwood Park/Tinseltown/UNF corridor or Nocatee.

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 12:44:40 PM
here is the type of cluster envisioned by the article:

(http://www.scienceprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/boston.jpg)

nice try but somewhat wrong....one of the major hi-tech clusters in this country is on SR 128 in Massachusetts....its kind of a western beltway for Boston.

Whether right or wrong, many of these types of industries prefer to be on a suburban campus...just look at Silicon Valley, much of the DC beltway baron companies, Atlanta's perimiter, and Scripps in CA (La Jolla is 15 miles from downtown San Diego) and FL.

Nevertheless, looking at the graphic above, you will not that this is about a 5 square mile area....high speed rail in this case would likely come into North Station...and then folks would TRANSFER to the "T" to get to their detination.

Stephen I agree we should as a State try to capitalize on connecting to the SEHSR. Just choosing the where your first day will have the most riders is not long term thinking. Adding each block onto a larger than the State system seems like more of a rational growth pattern. I like the idea of HSR but this State already has plenty of ROW that Amtrak could use to give us a statewide system that would provide the upgrades and locations to grow commuter systems in all of Florida's markets.

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 12:49:43 PM
What you left out of your  cursory 'analysis' (in a scientific way, im sure) was that the benefits described by the Florida Study you referred to were actually talking about the benefits of the full 425 mile tri city HSR which was voted down, and is not the project you are describing.

Quote


Again, somewhat misleading...if you use that logic, then we voted down the whole system.

in 2000, FL voters approved HSR connecting the 5 largest urban areas....that was interpretedf at the time to mean Tampa Bay, Orlando, West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale, and Miami (although one could put Ft. Lauderdale/Miami together which would make Jax. next on the list).

Then, following a poo poo campaign by Gov. Bush about it bankrupting our state, FL voters repealed the constitutional amendment in 2004....but the high speed rail authority (also part of the 2000 amednment) was never repealed.

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 01:14:22 PM
TUFSU.  Would you please bother reading the actual post?

Just this once?

In the post.  You will find the rationale for increased mass transit (NOT HSR, as Faye attempted to pawn off) for clusters.

I did...guess I just see things differently than you....for me, any means of transporrtation that is available to the public for groups of people (i.e., rail, ferries, planes) is mass transit!

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2009, 01:08:00 PM

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 12:44:40 PM
here is the type of cluster envisioned by the article:

(http://www.scienceprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/boston.jpg)

nice try but somewhat wrong....one of the major hi-tech clusters in this country is on SR 128 in Massachusetts....its kind of a western beltway for Boston.

Whether right or wrong, many of these types of industries prefer to be on a suburban campus...just look at Silicon Valley, much of the DC beltway baron companies, Atlanta's perimiter, and Scripps in CA (La Jolla is 15 miles from downtown San Diego) and FL.

Nevertheless, looking at the graphic above, you will not that this is about a 5 square mile area....high speed rail in this case would likely come into North Station...and then folks would TRANSFER to the "T" to get to their detination.

Excellent info.

Unfortunately not likely to impress Stephen, since he is intent on nitpicking rather than see the generality put forward by the Science Progress article.

Sorry to see you so off your rocker Stephen.

I think you are losing sight of the fact that we are all rail supporters.

Though my own preference of importance, if cost was no object:

1. LRT (promotes urban density)
2. HSR ( promotes urban density)
3. Commuter Rail ( promotes sprawl)

In any case, we need to keep supporting Amtrak in their expansion of service.

We are lucky in that our economy needs shoring up, thus the stimulus funds ( though NEVER supported by Republicans). This gives us the grand opportunity to get major federal investments in infrastructure without getting bogged down by a regressive state and local leadership.

It would seem that this websites wants to promote:

1. Commuter Rail and not much else.

Occasionally Amtrak gets some ink too, which is difficult to do as Republicans have until recently tried to kill Amtrak.

Stephen, Stephen, you are right. What we need more than anything right now is a corporate servant, rather than a public servant.

The Corporate servant is so much better because as such he is:

Someone who votes against the Hate Crime Bill

Someone who votes against equal Pay for Women

Someone who votes against healthcare for children

Someone who votes against Veterans issues

Someone who is only for HSR, if it's to take Amtrak's most profitable line away, to futher promote the starving of Amtrak

Someone who votes against the envionment, so much so that he earns a 5% out of 100% by the league of Conservation voters.

Well, pretty soon you will be the middle aged white male that is represented by the likes of Mica.

It's like all the other Republicans, that vote against their own interests because as Joe the Plumber says: One day I might be rich.

Thanks, but no thanks.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2388/2267182709_903f465aa8.jpg)
Just pulled this off the printer under my Crystal Ball. All it needs is a bit of wax, some buffing and a few gallons of fuel, HONEST, there's a lot of people that commute from Lakeland to Disney World! TRUST ME!

Fact is, if Florida had any intention of connecting density, clusters, industry, residents, etc... It would bite the bullet and build the first phase of this thing from Miami-Ft.Lauderdale-Boca Raton-West Palm-Stuart. Why? Because there is no place to infill left in South Florida. All density must needs be, go vertical. The millions of people that are squeezed between the Everglades and the Atlantic is staggering. Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville are all sprawl cities, horizontal in growth, with no end in sight. Building stations in the middle of nowhere just because a bus or Amtrak, or even a streetcar can connect it to a town, is just asking for more of the same sprawl.

Seems odd to say it but Jacksonville has this right, knock down the Prime Osbourne convention hall, and restore the 1919 train station downtown. Rare Kudos to JTA and COJ for not thinking with the wrong end of their anatomy. However, EVERYONE IN JACKSONVILLE should read the track 2 application for the Jax-Miami FEC trains. It speaks of our Jacksonville Terminal, and tells the world it will connect with... AMTRAK, JTA buses, SKYWAY and BRT. END OF STATEMENT. Uh? Hello? Where's this hot streetcar project? Where are the commuter trains? Ah, don't worry, if we plan like Tallahassee our first commuter rail line will run from Callahan to Baldwin, and our first streetcar will run from Atlantic to JTB down the middle of Hodges!

Nothing wrong in Tallahassee, that buying a few rounds of REBEL YELL, and laying a good ass whooping on these "MMHSR Planner type", folks wouldn't fix!

Stephendare, Lake, I agree, we don't want Faye anywhere NEAR the transportation planning for our state!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 12, 2009, 02:09:36 PM
Someone who is only for HSR, if it's to take Amtrak's most profitable line away, to futher promote the starving of Amtrak

Well, pretty soon you will be the middle aged white male that is represented by the likes of Mica.

First, those cannot learn are helpless Faye, and those who will not learn are hopeless. Why do you continue to parrot the line that the Northeast Corridor is Amtrak's "most profitable line?" It's not. Acela does well financially, but the corridor as a whole is a huge money sinkhole. Bidding it out to another operator might even improve it somewhat, wonder what SNCF could do with it? Certainly it would allow Amtrak to focus on the long distance routes that are really their bread and butter.

Secondly, I have never heard a politician run entirely on negative statements about the competition. Your condescending language toward Stephendare, Lakelander and myself are not much better. Do you have original thought or do you find out what Mica, has for breakfast so you can be seen eating something different? It's amazing that your entire identity on this site is based on John Mica, so much so that one wonders who's name people would recall first at the polls?  

OCKLAWAHA

Ouch................Gentlemen this is a discussion blog ain't it? There are two sides to every discussion and I don't agree with Faye either but what the hell? I can learn from something even if it is wrong, don't forget I am in favor of HSR but I refer to that as true High Speed Rail not the Mickey feeder system that was intended for the Orlando region to Tampa! We need rail or something just like it or else Florida will be nothing but concrete and asphalt from sea to shining sea.............ain't right the way its going! If Amtrak can get their act together and actually start service,even lacking stations between Jacksonville and Miami..........then bring it on! It would at least have the chance to break even and maybe make money if expanded.......but start now!

For those interested, here are a few aerials of where the train stations for HSR and Sunrail will be located.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/678763138_6ciUe-M.jpg)

Red = Sunrail stations.  Sunrail is proposed to operate on existing CSX tracks, linking Orlando's suburbs to the north and south with DT Orlando and inner city destinations such as Florida Hospital and Winter Park.

Blue = High Speed Rail stations.  HSR is proposed to connect Orlando's airport and Disney with DT Tampa.  The line will be built in the median of I-4 and the BeeLine (or whatever they are calling it these days).

The Lake Nona medical cluster is being developed a couple of miles from both HSR and Sunrail stations.  For the sprawl argument, here is a google earth aerial of the Lake Nona medical district site.  It is just south of the interchange that appears to die into nowhere.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/678763176_qpDgx-M.jpg)

I guess it will be dense when fully developed in a decade or two, depending on the economy. 

Quote from: thelakelander on October 12, 2009, 05:56:38 PM
For those interested, here are a few aerials of where the train stations for HSR and Sunrail will be located.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/678763138_6ciUe-M.jpg)

Red = Sunrail stations.  Sunrail is proposed to operate on existing CSX tracks, linking Orlando's suburbs to the north and south with DT Orlando and inner city destinations such as Florida Hospital and Winter Park.

Blue = High Speed Rail stations.  HSR is proposed to connect Orlando's airport and Disney with DT Tampa.  The line will be built in the median of I-4 and the BeeLine (or whatever they are calling it these days).

The Lake Nona medical cluster is being developed a couple of miles from both HSR and Sunrail stations. 

Beautiful picture lakelander.

It shows that an easy shuttle could transport workers from Lake Nona to the Airport HSR station. It also shows that Sunrail and HSR are not inter-connected. What is interesting from an urban planning point of view is that innovation begets innovation. It's forward thinking climate that's created by HSR.

CSFoltz, thank you for reminding us that this is supposed to be a public discussion board where all opinions are to be welcome. Agree to disagree. Echo chambers are boring.

Like it or not, many people will be involved in rail planning. It is not the purview of the metrojacksonville site alone.

I'm not even sure what we disagree on. I see this site more as a vehicle to exchange info.

More than anything we should be working on getting tri-rail the support it needs. If we can't even take care of the one commuter rail we have in Florida,...........

Quotesun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-trirail-highspeed-editorial-sboct12,0,2103286.story

South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
Florida's high speed rail hopes hinge on Tri-Rail's success
THE ISSUE: Florida's bullet train hopes hit speed bump.
Sun Sentinel Editorial Board

October 12, 2009


The state's high hopes for reviving high-speed rail last week received a reality check â€" and thankfully so â€" from U.S. Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood. LaHood warned commuter rail enthusiasts in Orlando that Florida probably won't get any stimulus money for new rail projects.

And Florida shouldn't qualify, either, truth be told.

The reason is simple enough, but its one that hasn't gotten through the skulls of state leaders in Tallahassee. Florida hasn't been a good partner in sustaining Tri-Rail, and if the state allows its only existing commuter rail line to fail, why should Washington waste any more rail transportation money on Florida?

The rumbling out of the nation's capital isn't surprising. Over the past year, federal transportation officials, and members of the Florida congressional delegation, have urged state leaders to find a more consistent funding source for Tri-Rail.

They first did so when state officials pushed an effort to start SunRail in Central Florida. Now LaHood has made the point more forcefully as awaits a decision that could pay for the construction of a new high-speed rail line that will link Tampa to Orlando and eventually South Florida.

Given Florida's neglect of Tri-Rail, federal authorities would have had more success watching paint dry. The Florida Legislature is still loathe to approve a proposed $2 surcharge on car rentals to finance commuter rail projects. There are efforts to tie Tri-Rail's fate to the proposed SunRail project that would operate on CSX tracks in the Orlando area. It's a worthy idea, but that initiative includes language that would hold the freight line harmless for any legal action resulting from the firm's negligence, a non-starter for a majority of state senators who believe that's too high a price to pay for new passenger service.

Worse, Tri-Rail's funding problems haven't generated much concern from Florida Transportation Secretary Stephanie C. Kopelousos, and her boss, Gov. Charlie Crist, seems to have checked out on the issue altogether.

State leaders better take LaHood's assessment seriously, and show Washington that they want to stay competitive in the chase for federal high-speed rail dollars. A new generation of passenger train service would boost jobs and stimulate Florida's economy. Unfortunately, state leaders seem hellbent on sidetracking themselves

BOTTOM LINE: As goes Tri-Rail, so goes high speed rail.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/sfl-trirail-highspeed-editorial-sboct12,0,1343330,print.story

Let me make sure I have this correct.............red dots are Sunrail (running north and south)blue dots are the HSR (that runs east and west) why are the just connected in the crossover point? How in the hell can HSR run for that short of a distance and be effective........It starts at OIA and ends in downtown? Both systems start and stop in nowhere and this is the best they can come up with? If a stop is programed for Mouse Central then we are just funding a railroad for Mouseville! This can not be an efficient system for true HSR......LR yes or even trolley or streetcar but not for HSR.........equipment may get up to 100mph but it has to stop sometime, jack rabbit starts and stops is kinda hard on any kind of equipment............surely they can do better than this?

I thought that both systems were supposed to be interconnected? You people keep changing parameters on me! Sunrail interurban people moving system.......HSR intercity people moving system.......or it should be not the puny dinky 73 mile mile run to nowhere! I am still confused as to how this is referred to "HSR"? You don't start and stop multi-tons on a dime.....to do so wears equipment out more quickly than would be normal! So just how in the heck does that get referred to as HSR? Come on fellas....if its got feathers, waddles and goes quack....it is most likely a duck....right? So why do we keep referring to that stew in Orlando HSR?

The systems don't connect.  Imo, its a result of poor planning and bad politics.  This is anything but visionary on Florida's part.

QuoteIt shows that an easy shuttle could transport workers from Lake Nona to the Airport HSR station.

The same applies to Sunrail, as I'm sure you know but won't admit.  However, it is a bad way to plan for rail in general.

QuoteWhat is interesting from an urban planning point of view is that innovation begets innovation. It's forward thinking climate that's created by HSR.

Are you saying Lake Nona is a result of HSR?  That's a huge stretch.  Its more a result of a new highway and cheap virgin land now being accessible.  True innovation is finding a way to successfully redevelop established areas of the community.  Not abandonment.

Quote from: stephendare on October 12, 2009, 02:07:07 PM

Just think that you should stick to health care until you are able to listen to and absorb the governing principles of rail and urban planning.

You might start with the works of Jane Jacobs and Kunstler.

Unless you've suggested the same to Peyton, Stearns, Crenshaw and Mica and others like that, I'm not going to take you serious.

As I told you before I took urban planning classes, including economic geography at the University of Amsterdam. We had some Professors from Ann Arbor Michigan teach us American urban planning.

Besides, urban planning is alive and well in Europe, where there are many vibrant inner cities, and old buildings well preserved. Public transportation is a given in Europe.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 12, 2009, 09:10:24 PM
True innovation is finding a way to successfully redevelop established areas of the community.  Not abandonment.

True.

Innovation also means getting cutting edge industry to invest in your area.

Lake Nona started as a uniquely far-sighted project to diversify the Florida economy, but it will likely grow more because HSR will give it that extra innovative tinge.

As stated earlier, while I consider Lake Nona to be sprawl, its a better utilization of cow pastures than most of the tract home developments that line the GreeneWay.  However, Lake Nona is an unrelated development to both HSR and Sunrail.  The success or failure of these rail systems should have no bearing on the development of Lake Nona medical cluster. The clustering of the medical district component would be feasible with or without these proposed rail systems having stations a couple of miles away.

Even though it would slow things down some, it would be nice if there was an HSR stop on the Beachline to allow transfers to/from Sun Rail

^True.  Isn't CSX supposed to abandon the Taft Yard as a part of the Sunrail project?  It would cost more but perhaps the airport HSR station should be moved to the west side of the airport property at Taft, then connected by an airport people mover, similar to the peoplemover that will connect MIA to Miami's intermodal center.  Then again, why bother?  HSR won't be going high speed in Orlando anyway. 

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 12, 2009, 10:27:33 PM
As I told you before I took urban planning classes, including economic geography at the University of Amsterdam. We had some Professors from Ann Arbor Michigan teach us American urban planning.

Besides, urban planning is alive and well in Europe, where there are many vibrant inner cities, and old buildings well preserved. Public transportation is a given in Europe.

Political speak all over again Faye. You took some classes in Amsterdam, your an economist, but now your an urban planner, that is when your not a transportation planner/consultant. You picked up enough in school to tell us everything you think we want to hear, density, urbanism, HSR, balance, walkability etc., then spin right around and toss it all into the wind because your willing to flush every future rail project in the state on the alter of a very poorly planned, no where - to theme park - to expressway interchange, MMHSR project.

Lake and I ate lunch at a Bono's BBQ a couple of month ago, but that doesn't make us spare ribs!

If your really the peoples candidate, one would think you would at least listen to the professional people who are trying to help you make a brave and memorable stand. But like both parties today, rather then a elephant and a donkey, they ought to both be using LEMMINGS as their symbol.

Lake, They won't "abandon Taft Yard" they will quit making up trains there for the most part, and shift that to the new yard. Taft will then be the interchange with Florida Central, and for local switching moves. BTW, you do know that the old NAVY railroad left the CSX and went right up into the Tradeport area where the big hangers are. Pretty close to the OIA runways. So a people mover or short subway might work. Hell, if they did deep enough maybe they'll disturb that sleeping volcano and our problems with Orlando and Disney will be over... Yeah, I know, wishful thinking.  

OCKLAWAHA

The more that I see what is being pushed the less that I like what I am seeing! Red Dots show something that could do something, still take exception to where the stops are projected to be but the concept has merit! The main issue that I have is with the Blue Dots and their layout. If half of the those projected station are not in the I4 corrider just how will they get and start dropping south? Everyone keeps referring to "HSR" being used but I don't see where there is any option to use High Speed Rail on what  is basically short runs between stations! I may be new to the concept but I do have an understanding of simple physics! It takes x amount of power to move x amount of weight,the faster it goes the more brake horsepower it takes to stop. So it would seem prudent to assume that something traveling at 100 mph would not stop within a mile or even two! From my perspective being able to run at those speeds is only usefull for something that can get up to that kind of speed and hold it without having to stop every ten miles!

CS, its simple.  HSR won't be getting up to "high speeds" in Orlando, there are too many stations.  HSR isn't what this area really needs.  However, they do plan to have express trains, so one could assume that those trains will get through suburban Orlando faster, on their way to Disney, Lakeland and Tampa.

OK lake.......just the term keeps throwing me off! Maybe call it the "Express Line" or something else. But true HSR it ain't gonna be for sure. Both systems are separate also with no common connection crossing or ability to transfer from one to the other...........does not make much sense ftom a use point of view. Something is wrong with the design if you don't have that capability......two stand alone systems not cost effective to either install or maintain......but thats just me!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 13, 2009, 12:57:27 AM

Quote from: FayeforCure on October 12, 2009, 10:27:33 PM
As I told you before I took urban planning classes, including economic geography at the University of Amsterdam. We had some Professors from Ann Arbor Michigan teach us American urban planning.

Besides, urban planning is alive and well in Europe, where there are many vibrant inner cities, and old buildings well preserved. Public transportation is a given in Europe.

Political speak all over again Faye. You took some classes in Amsterdam, your an economist, but now your an urban planner, that is when your not a transportation planner/consultant. You picked up enough in school to tell us everything you think we want to hear, density, urbanism, HSR, balance, walkability etc., then spin right around and toss it all into the wind because your willing to flush every future rail project in the state on the alter of a very poorly planned, no where - to theme park - to expressway interchange, MMHSR project.

Lake and I ate lunch at a Bono's BBQ a couple of month ago, but that doesn't make us spare ribs!

If your really the peoples candidate, one would think you would at least listen to the professional people who are trying to help you make a brave and memorable stand. But like both parties today, rather then a elephant and a donkey, they ought to both be using LEMMINGS as their symbol.

Lake, They won't "abandon Taft Yard" they will quit making up trains there for the most part, and shift that to the new yard. Taft will then be the interchange with Florida Central, and for local switching moves. BTW, you do know that the old NAVY railroad left the CSX and went right up into the Tradeport area where the big hangers are. Pretty close to the OIA runways. So a people mover or short subway might work. Hell, if they did deep enough maybe they'll disturb that sleeping volcano and our problems with Orlando and Disney will be over... Yeah, I know, wishful thinking.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ouch that left a Mark!

CS...the express trains are supposed to run directly from downtown Tampa to OIA...about 75 miles...without any stops...so why wouldn't the train be able to get up to speed?

Quotethank you for reminding us that this is supposed to be a public discussion board where all opinions are to be welcome. Agree to disagree. Echo chambers are boring.

This is good to hear Faye...

Good point.  Echo chambers are boring.  While many not agree with Faye on this particular topic, its good to see the issue debated from opposite perspectives.

tufsu1 there are limits speed wise regarding curves......unless they are banked 10 Degree's or better. I am sure there is some formula regarding speed's and curves and the type of suspension system used. I do know that there is standard type with springs and there is something else that tilts in relation to banking stresses! AGV system use's that but that is the French HSR.....I believe the Japanese use a similar system!

which is why the route is planned for I-4...since it is far straighter than the CSX tracks

http://www.youtube.com/v/-1ZY6VLW7v0&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1
Curves can be superelevated, in fact they once were, until the railroads dumped passenger trains on the government.

In the Pacific Northwest and in Spain, where the tracks are FAR from tangents, they use the Talgo trains which feature a pendulum system to self bank. Both systems are in the upper ranges of world track speeds, with Oregon, Washington and British Columbia, inching up with each new improvement.
Just not an excuse to use I-4 when we have a perfectly good, and urban centered railroad mainline 10 miles to the south.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock...I think you know that that line can't have speeds of more than 79mph without some serious upgrades....and you'll never get above 90mph without doing some major grade separations....and  speeds of 110+ are virtually impossible.

So, once again....if true high speed rail is required (which was the guidance given to the consultant team 6 yerars ago), then I-4 is the only viable route.

If I-4 has to be the route because its HSR or bust, then it needs to be developed for both local and express service.  By local, additional stops should be included at each major city along the corridor.  At a minimum they should include, Ybor, Seminole Hard Rock/Fairgrounds, Brandon/Seffner, Plant City, Lakeland (in Lakeland assuming USF Poly is the official HSR station), US 27/I-4, Celebration, etc.  Local service would at least pull in the daily commuter traffic, while express trains could run as currently proposed.

The biggest problem that I have with the I4 corridor is there is not much there! You still have to have a connection to anything that would be traveling along that route and there does not appear to be one with the new and approved red dot layout............neither system connects with the other so you have two stand alone systems each with a goal of moving people! But they are not connected to each other at any point so where is the benefit? Two point five Billion Dollars will go down the tubes and we will have two systems going bust!

Another Article
Rail system no Mickey Mouse project
http://www.dailycommercial.com/opinion/story/101109-edit-rr (http://www.dailycommercial.com/opinion/story/101109-edit-rr)

That reads like something written by a Disney employee.

buckethead......I concur! Maybe now that we have the great and human employer "Ratville" involved we can get something going.........only problem is still in the middle of the state and just a feeder system for Mouseville and it is not anything all of us can use..............unless we drive down there! So where is the advatange to that?

I'm sorry that you won't be able to use it...but over 5 Florida residents (Tampa Bay-Lakeland-Orlando) will!

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 18, 2009, 09:28:15 AM
I'm sorry that you won't be able to use it...but over 5 Florida residents (Tampa Bay-Lakeland-Orlando) will!

It will make a fun trip from the airport to Disney!

What'll the fares be though? 20 bucks a pop or the free bus service?... hmmm, decisions decisions....

That train is just designed for the tourists from other states to get to Disney World. Many people think that Disney stirs the drink in the Orlando area, so that's why they had such priority on the train.

tufsu1 got no problem with somewhere using my tax dollars for their benefit. I have a problem with all of a sudden Mouseville is entering the picture using my money to further their long range plans! Nice to know that we can help them out since they are in such a need. HSR is something that should benefit the whole state not just a private enterprise that just happened to make enough money to buy Marvel Enterprises at 2.5 Billion dollars. that was cold hard cash by the way, no stock was involved. So the new feeder system for Mouseville comes out of my money and that does not make me happy! Nice we get some construction jobs out of it and maybe some operating jobs but that system will have to be supported with my money since no system is truly self sufficient is this not correct?

And why was Disney allowed to buy Marvel Comics? Do Anti-trust laws not apply to amusement parks?

The problem is connect 4 or 5 stops over seventy to eighty miles for the money or connect all of the state with higher speed Amtrak.  The Amtrak plan also helps with it's own feeder system by providing much of the infrastructure improvements needed for the state's commuter rail projects.  BTW the Amtrak plan includes Orlando that HSR bypasses (except airport, Disney and possibly one other outskirts stop Disney might allow).

I can't view a rail system that does not include a Disney station as feasable. ;)

 

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 18, 2009, 11:50:36 AM
I have a problem with all of a sudden Mouseville is entering the picture using my money to further their long range plans!

Did you ever stop to think about how much tax revenue Disney brings to Florida...so why shouldn't they get some benefit from the state too?

Disney should certainly have a stop but Orlando should have a stop or three also. The line should not just be airport, Disney and with Disney's tolerance the convention center.

tufsu1............I can not ague that point! Mouseville does deserve a stop also, but not at the expense of the rest of the region! A feeder system that goes from OIA to Mouseville with no stops is just a plain and simple feeder period! They already have the "Magical Experience" going on right? So if they keep what they have and add to it from OIA then they are reaping the benefit of any light rail system that goes in there and not the area! The people who could use it, not withstanding $30 for a oneway ride, not only could not afford it but it won't go to where it needs to go! The whole purpose of installing a system there is to relieve the congestion on I-4 and have a people moving system that can be used by that area. The Blue dot's showed 3 stops and the Red dot's showed either 8 or 9. Neither system connected with the other sooooo........what is going on there is two seperate systems that do not connect, but both end up at Mouseville? I still question that area for a test of true HSR which is needed to showcase just what can take place!

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 19, 2009, 03:47:23 PM
tufsu1............I can not ague that point! Mouseville does deserve a stop also, but not at the expense of the rest of the region! A feeder system that goes from OIA to Mouseville with no stops is just a plain and simple feeder period!

Which is why the route that Disney originally wanted that did just that was not chosen....the preferred route includes a stop at the Convention Center/I-Drive on its way from I-Drive to Disney and beyond.

Since Stephen Dare hasn't gotten an answer from Mica on his (lack) of support on Amtrak, it was good to read a clear description of Mica's position on HSR:

QuoteU.S. Rep. John Mica, a Winter Park Republican and the ranking minority member of the House Transportation Committee, does not contribute much with his sweeping criticisms. Mica insists that high-speed rail needs a fixed local distribution system â€" such as light rail or a monorail â€" to work. This sounds more like sour grapes from a leading proponent of the flawed SunRail commuter rail proposal for Central Florida. Mica is wrong to link the two.

High-speed rail does need a local feeder system. But there is time and there are other options, such as expanding local bus service, to craft a system that works. To her credit, U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, a Tampa Democrat, sees the bigger picture. There is momentum at the local level for commuter rail in both Central Florida and the Tampa Bay area, and the focus needs to be on not wasting this opportunity to secure federal stimulus dollars.

Mica's correct that having an established track record or even plans for local rail would help Florida's application. It would give the federal government a comfort level in subsidizing an even more ambitious high-speed system. But local rail is not a prerequisite. What federal policymakers are eager to see are a region's unified front, a thoughtful business model and a bang for the federal buck that can extend for years.

Mica can serve his state better by joining the congressional delegation to make Florida's application as strong as possible. And if members can help make the numbers work for local rail projects, too, so much the better. Both would be appropriate responses to a recent Palm Beach Post analysis that found that Florida so far has received fewer stimulus funds per capita than any other state.

But to disparage the state's high-speed rail chances before an application is even submitted is definitely not in Florida's interest.

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1016536.ece

One of these days when I can figure out how to do it............will post the quotes that are applicable but the point of Faye's post I have to agree with! Representative Mice is not doing his job representing his constuants! He does not represent me and I am glad for it, this is not thinking out of or beyound the box and we all suffer because of it!

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 22, 2009, 02:42:21 PM
One of these days when I can figure out how to do it............will post the quotes that are applicable but the point of Faye's post I have to agree with! Representative Mice is not doing his job representing his constuants! He does not represent me and I am glad for it, this is not thinking out of or beyound the box and we all suffer because of it!

CS Foltz, thanks for your comment.