Real trains, not toys August 8, 2009
http://www.pnj.com/article/20090808/OPINION/908080301/1021/OPINION01 (http://www.pnj.com/article/20090808/OPINION/908080301/1021/OPINION01)
(http://www.pnj.com/graphics/mastlogo.gif)
QuoteWe'd love to see passenger rail service restored to Pensacola. But the only way to do it is to do it right.
We don't need sporadic service from old trains riding on inadequate rails that limit speeds to less than cars traveling on adjoining interstate highways. If it's going to take five hours to get to New Orleans, that's not our idea of convenient or competitive.
What we need is a modern, high-speed rail system that performs like the rail systems in Europe, where the trains are taking passengers away from the airlines and off the roads because they are fast, comfortable and convenient.
Ideally we can imagine a high-speed rail system connecting Chicago, Atlanta, Pensacola, Mobile, New Orleans, Orlando, Jacksonville or other cities.
Does it have to pay for itself strictly from ticket revenues?
No, although in some corridors rail service does turn a profit. But let's not fall for the myth that we don't already subsidize highway travel. We do.
State and local governments here and across the United States subsidize highway travel with a variety of taxes, including sales and property taxes, because fuel taxes don't cover all the costs, even of construction and maintenance. Especially when you add in the cost of traffic signals, police, and emergency response to traffic accidents.
Until recently the U.S. government has subsidized Amtrak with about $1.5 billion a year. That's not a subsidy, it's a joke.
Congress and the Obama administration included $1.3 billion for Amtrak in the stimulus bill, but it's a pitifully small amount compared to the investment needed to seriously upgrade passenger train service. Compare that to spending in excess of $10 billion a month during the height of the Iraq War, and the wasteful priorities of the government come clear.
For a fraction of what has been spent in Iraq we could have built a modern rail system that would be the envy of the world. But, of course, the critics always say we can't afford it.
What we can't afford is passenger rail as a novelty. There's no point in bringing toy trains to Pensacola.
I LOVE this quote:
QuoteFor a fraction of what has been spent in Iraq we could have built a modern rail system that would be the envy of the world. But, of course, the critics always say we can't afford it.
What we can't afford is passenger rail as a novelty. There's no point in bringing toy trains to Pensacola.
The lip service many of our leaders have given passenger rail, and the vested interests that have been advanced under the nomer of passenger rail has been appalling.
As good as the story sounds, and as good as the intentions of it's author, the Pensacola News Journal and press in general have been quite a vocal enemy of passenger train service.
One article probably within the last year or so, suggested all kinds of "good" uses for the new train station that was built for the Sunset Limited. (Though small, the classic lines of this replica depot put our Amshack to shame)
Pensacola and the Panhandle need to get on the train. People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.
Pensacola offers a great opportunity for a Federal-Florida-Alabama joint project. Some years ago CSX proposed a cutoff from the Pensacola Bay Bridge, directly northwest past the power plant to the border crossing near Floamington, AL.. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could stretch that cutoff all the way to the East side of the Mobile Bay crossing? There has NEVER been a direct route from Pensacola to Mobile, making for a very long and roundabout trip.
So far Amtrak has suffered through 30+ years of being funded like a Wal-Mart store with only one can of soup on all of its empty shelves. But they only put that can out for 30 minutes twice daily. Sorry folks THAT AIN'T SERVICE.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.
I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."
A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.
Here is the quote by the other Rail Expert:
QuoteJust as the freeway spurred greater auto usage and auto centric development, high speed rail can and will spur more mass transit usage and rail connections to and from a major station.
We should not fear building HSR in cities without great mass transit systems. HSR can be the catalyst to improving mass transit.
Why does Amtrak have to be a "runky-dink" train? In reality, Amtrak has partnered with other states to provide a quality level of service for a fraction of the money it will cost taxpayers for HSR in the middle of I-4. We should seriously look at implementing a statewide intercity rail corridor service (similar to what's running in California) that serves the needs of the average Florida resident just as much as a train built for carrying tourist from MCO to Disney.
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 24, 2009, 12:19:39 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.
I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."
A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.
Here is the quote by the other Rail Expert:
QuoteJust as the freeway spurred greater auto usage and auto centric development, high speed rail can and will spur more mass transit usage and rail connections to and from a major station.
We should not fear building HSR in cities without great mass transit systems. HSR can be the catalyst to improving mass transit.
Agreed Lakelander, Amtrak is not a joke in California, the Pacific Northwest, NC or IL, where the States have a record of supporting transportation. Florida doesn't.
Cover this up however you want but NOBODY lives on I-4, and none of the locals are interested in driving to BFE to get to the Orlando Airport in order to ride to Disney. They won't park there to ride to Tampa Airport either because it's easier to DRIVE to Tampa then to get to the Orlando Airport from Orlando. This whole thing has a distinct MICKEY MOUSE smell to it.
On that last quote, no one in their right mind builds a freeway without first having the connecting ramps IN PLACE. Yet these "experts" claim if we just build it, suddenly LRT, BRT, STREETCARS, MONORAILS etc. will just magically sprout all over Florida. NOT!
Amtrak or another private contractor operating on current trackage is the way to grow this system.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2009, 06:43:57 AM
Why does Amtrak have to be a "runky-dink" train? In reality, Amtrak has partnered with other states to provide a quality level of service for a fraction of the money it will cost taxpayers for HSR in the middle of I-4. We should seriously look at implementing a statewide intercity rail corridor service (similar to what's running in California) that serves the needs of the average Florida resident just as much as a train built for carrying tourist from MCO to Disney.
Where did I say Amtrak was rinky-dink? I was referring to the article NOT Amtrak.
But there are some Florida Republicans who Have HATED Amtrak: John Mica
^I thought you were referring to Ock's comment about starting with Amtrak above.
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 24, 2009, 12:19:39 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.
I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."
A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2009, 12:55:45 PM
^I thought you were referring to Ock's comment about starting with Amtrak above.
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 24, 2009, 12:19:39 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2009, 12:10:40 AM
People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.
I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."
A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.
No, I responded to this part of Ocks statement:
QuotePeople are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail.
And I vehemently disagree.
I think people would love super trains. Florida's HSR concept is airport to airport where Amtrak is downtown to downtown. You know what the best method to get to another city's airport is? Answer Fly.
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
I think people would love super trains. Florida's HSR concept is airport to airport where Amtrak is downtown to downtown. You know what the best method to get to another city's airport is? Answer Fly.
Yes that used to be the answer in Europe too for nearby cities, however air connections have been reduced due to the popularity of airport to airport HSR.
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 24, 2009, 01:12:33 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2009, 01:04:59 PM
I think people would love super trains. Florida's HSR concept is airport to airport where Amtrak is downtown to downtown. You know what the best method to get to another city's airport is? Answer Fly.
Yes that used to be the answer in Europe too for nearby cities, however air connections have been reduced due to the popularity of airport to airport HSR.
Can't imagine a single person that would rather drive to JIA in order to catch a train to MCO, even if gas was 34 cents a gallon. By the time one got to the airport, find a parking spot, and board your train, Amtrak's Silver Meteor will be rolling into DELAND, 50 miles to go. (remember security and ONE HOUR before your boarding call). I will be found in the lounge car, having eaten a full breakfast in the dinning car. You'll be suffering from frustration and heartburn. OCKLAWAHA
It would work out for some but I think for most people in most cities the center of town is more convenient than the airport.
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2009, 03:21:01 PM
It would work out for some but I think for most people in most cities the center of town is more convenient than the airport.
Except that downtown traffic and parking issues would be both time consuming and expensive. Not enough parking in downtown!
BTW I have been a longtime Jax Miami Amtrak supporter for those who are wondering.
With a system that links walkable neighborhoods and destinations it may be feasible for people to avoid traffic congestion issues by walking instead of driving. Howver, we're talking about two systems that will ultimately appeal to two different user groups. I really don't see HSR (at least Florida's first phase) being anything more than a tourist train. The line, as planned, is just not set up to serve the needs of the average Central Florida resident and commuter.
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 24, 2009, 10:15:28 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2009, 03:21:01 PM
It would work out for some but I think for most people in most cities the center of town is more convenient than the airport.
Except that downtown traffic and parking issues would be both time consuming and expensive. Not enough parking in downtown!
BTW I have been a longtime Jax Miami Amtrak supporter for those who are wondering.
Faye, the parking issue is certainly an area where someone has misinformed you. Jacksonville, and the other Florida Cities suffer from far too much parking, curbside, garages, surface etc.. This is one of the major reasons mass transit has failed to gain political clout, or a large following. Having lived for several years in West Volusia, and Heathrow, I can tell you I'd rather drive to MIAMI or TAMPA then to the Orlando Airport. This train is a Disney set-up, and that's all it is. If "DISNEY HSR" was anything else, there would be stops at the OC Convention Center/International Drive/Universal/Sea World, but the mouse will dictate and Florida will fall in line. OCKLAWAHA
For Ock and Faye. Cheers!
(http://alphabetilately.com/Tisfor/them-disney-train-1.JPG)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2009, 11:09:52 PM
Faye, the parking issue is certainly an area where someone has misinformed you. Jacksonville, and the other Florida Cities suffer from far too much parking, curbside, garages, surface etc.. This is one of the major reasons mass transit has failed to gain political clout, or a large following. Having lived for several years in West Volusia, and Heathrow, I can tell you I'd rather drive to MIAMI or TAMPA then to the Orlando Airport. This train is a Disney set-up, and that's all it is. If "DISNEY HSR" was anything else, there would be stops at the OC Convention Center/International Drive/Universal/Sea World, but the mouse will dictate and Florida will fall in line.
Driving to Orlando Airport when I lived in Central Florida was never a problem to me. Driving in any downtown area however drives me crazy. I can never find nearby and affordable parking and that includes Jax. Just my own personal experience.
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 25, 2009, 02:11:35 PM
Driving to Orlando Airport when I lived in Central Florida was never a problem to me. Driving in any downtown area however drives me crazy. I can never find nearby and affordable parking and that includes Jax. Just my own personal experience.
I just spoke with Nazih Hadad, Manager, Passenger Rail Development, Florida Department of Transportation after visiting the website: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/Stimulus_Application.html
Turns out, they are doing both for HSR:
Orlando AIRPORT
to
Tampa DOWNTOWN
It was where the respective airports were located, that was the deciding factor. They found Orlando airport easily accessible, not so for Tampa aiport.
He will upload the actual route to the website.
Good work Faye
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 25, 2009, 02:36:57 PM
Quote from: FayeforCure on August 25, 2009, 02:11:35 PM
Driving to Orlando Airport when I lived in Central Florida was never a problem to me. Driving in any downtown area however drives me crazy. I can never find nearby and affordable parking and that includes Jax. Just my own personal experience.
I just spoke with Nazih Hadad, Manager, Passenger Rail Development, Florida Department of Transportation after visiting the website: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/Stimulus_Application.html
Turns out, they are doing both for HSR:
Orlando AIRPORT
to
Tampa DOWNTOWN
It was where the respective airports were located, that was the deciding factor. They found Orlando airport easily accessible, not so for Tampa aiport.
He will upload the actual route to the website.
Sadly this office still doesn't get it. They do NOT plan to end the HSR at the Tampa Union Station, which is tailor made to become their surface transportation center. It once contained about 10 stub tracks and 2-3 through tracks (to Port Tampa). In spite of the hype and the supporters of HSR, THIS TRAIN IS NOT FOR US, at least not this segment, this plan, this time.
As for driving to MCO, if they are not coming out of downtown Orlando, Winter Park, Sanford, Orange City, Deland... They are pissing into the wind. To get to MCO from downtown at any of these locations either requires a trip on I-4 (which often can turn into a 1-2 hour wait) or a trip on the Greeneway, where they will ding you for $5.oo - $8.oo. If your lucky enough to be on the South end of town already, then you can enjoy the sights of Orange Blossom Trail out to Sand Lake Road and the Beach Line (which will also ding you for money). No thanks my car gets about 46 MPG on the highway and provided I can bust through the hell hole that is I-4 in downtown, I'll just drive to Tampa.
YEP! GOOD OLD MICKEY MOUSE TOWN, A RAT IN PARADISE!
As for downtown Jacksonville? You have to be kidding Faye, really? We have more parking spaces downtown then there are citizens in Alaska... The REALLY rich VIPS can rent a space with wall to wall carpeting and valet service down there for about $35.oo a month. This is simply backward, how can we expect JTA, Bus, Skyway, etc. to make any progress when we reward drivers for skipping transit because it's CHEAPER to drive and park! We need to seriously revise lot and garage pricing downtown, dedicate more funds to transit, offer discount passes with park and ride lots in the Burbs, and go free on the curbside with time restraints.
Anybody else ever have a hard time parking in downtown Jacksonville? OCKLAWAHA
Just recognize it for what it is. Its an expensive train for tourist not everyday residents. Hopefully, there will be a plan at some point in the future that addresses the commuter needs of Central Florida residents. If we're lucky, maybe the state will wake up and work with Amtrak to establish a cheaper corridor option that runs and stops where people live in the region.
Btw, did the state officially apply for the Amtrak/FEC corridor or Sunrail ROW purchase? Imo, both of those are more important for state/NE Florida residents than HSR.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2009, 10:54:50 PM
With a system that links walkable neighborhoods and destinations it may be feasible for people to avoid traffic congestion issues by walking instead of driving. Howver, we're talking about two systems that will ultimately appeal to two different user groups. I really don't see HSR (at least Florida's first phase) being anything more than a tourist train. The line, as planned, is just not set up to serve the needs of the average Central Florida resident and commuter.
One thing you are forgetting is that taking tourists off the road will greatly improve things for Central Florida residents and commuters. However, I am still not convinced commuters won't want to ride the HSR. I used to drive from Orlando to Tampa every day for a year and I sure as heck would have liked a rail option. I'm still waiting to see what stops they plan on the HSR line.
(http://digital.hcplc.org/burgert/archive06/5809.jpg)
Gandy Bridge, TECO line
Quote from: FayeforCure on September 01, 2009, 10:39:31 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2009, 10:54:50 PM
I really don't see HSR (at least Florida's first phase) being anything more than a tourist train. The line, as planned, is just not set up to serve the needs of the average Central Florida resident and commuter.
One thing you are forgetting is that taking tourists off the road will greatly improve things for Central Florida residents and commuters. However, I am still not convinced commuters won't want to ride the HSR. I used to drive from Orlando to Tampa every day for a year and I sure as heck would have liked a rail option. I'm still waiting to see what stops they plan on the HSR line.
One thing you are forgetting is that taking tourists off the road will only occur with the tourists that FLY into Orlando International or Tampa International Airports. Not even Sanford International (one of the fastest growing airports in the country and nearly 100% of the charter business to Central Florida) will count toward the traffic for the MMHSR (Mickey Mouse High Speed Rail). The bulk of the tourist traffic that jams I-4 and even the few that venture onto the money sucking Greeneway, have driven from Ohio, New Jersey, New York etc... They will have no reason to go and suffer through OIA or TPA to find a parking spot so they can then go see Mickey. Worse, if they are headed for Busch Gardens or Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater, getting on a train that might dump them either at another airport or the middle of a highway interchange in Tampa, is hardly going to solve anything.
Add to this the incredible (and I think highly stacked by the highway boys at FDOT) numbers for the TBARTA "Light Rail System", and the abandonment of the natural transportation hub at Tampa Union Station, except for threadbare Amtrak service, the whole project slides into the sewer. FDOT, staffed during a Bush Presidency and "BOY BUSH," as governor, is still highly anti-rail and still sold on the BRT systems, which really aren't a system at all. Once again, heads up! This time in Tampa, I SMELL A RAT! Better check that list of officials and see who is collecting Thoroughbred's at the hobby farm in Ocala.
Few realize that in 1921 the Gandy bridge over the North Bay had TECO streetcar tracks. Photos taken just off the end of the bridge, show the TECO line running through a parkway (like Jacksonville Traction). It's time to look at the medians, the median conversions, and the curb protected side of the road running with signal priority and get all of the old TECO as well as the St. Petersburg Traction back on track. This could be done top notch for $20 - 40 Million a mile. OCKLAWAHA
I would support either system but would prefer the Amtrak solution. I believe it would reach so many more residents and help ease the investment for local commuter rail systems through out the state.
Ock....you hit the nail on the head for sure!! Anything that comes out of FDOT is going to be asphalt oriented! Yes...downtown has plenty of parking for sure....don't forget the new digital parking meters....whopee! Still time oriented in bias of running back and forth every two hours to shove more money into the stupid things. Miss your time by ten minutes and you get a driving award! That cost's 15 bucks by the way! Metermaids show no mercy........just numbers oriented but that's another matter!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 01, 2009, 12:22:20 PM
The bulk of the tourist traffic that jams I-4 and even the few that venture onto the money sucking Greeneway, have driven from Ohio, New Jersey, New York etc... They will have no reason to go and suffer through OIA or TPA to find a parking spot so they can then go see Mickey.
I think you are underestimating the value of foreign travelers to Florida's economy:
QuoteCanadians, Europeans and Latin Americans helped rescue the summer season last year as the U.S. recession gained steam and domestic travelers stayed home.
www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/1067285.html
Remember many of those foreign tourists are very used to taking a train. That frees up the freeways to local commuters.
Tourism is the number one industry in the State and makes sense to have a system outsiders are accustomed to using........not to mention those of us here already could use it also! Moving people around should be on everyones agenda. Just wish FDOT were not involved to the extent they are....maybe its time to have a seperate Agency dedicated to rail?
CS it indeed seems when you umbrella mass transit under general transportation administrations concrete always wins.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 02, 2009, 08:52:22 AM
CS it indeed seems when you umbrella mass transit under general transportation administrations concrete always wins.
Not when there are dedicated federal dollars out there for HSR, ready for the taking.
BTW the FDOT has a separate Passenger Rail Development section, and the High Speed Rail Authority was set up entirely separate from FDOT.
QuoteA NEW RAIL AUTHORITY
The Florida Legislature created the current Florida High Speed Rail Authority in 2001, and hired consultants, advertising for contractors and completing environmental engineering studies for the first phase between Orlando and Tampa. Bush, in the meantime, had supporters get enough petition signatures to put the amendment issue back on the ballot, and voters repealed the requirement that the state must build the system.
However, the governor miscalculated, because the rail authority, having been created by the Legislature, was not tied to the amendment, so it continued to operate. He asked the nine members to disband, but they refused.
The Legislature, which created the authority, also refused to decommission it, and the authority went into a kind of hibernation for the last two years of Bush's administration.
Authority members and other high-speed rail supporters were heartened by the election of Charlie Crist as governor in 2006, but Crist has yet to reappoint members of the authority or to meet with them.
Since the offer of federal stimulus money, however, Crist has announced his support. He said again on Tuesday that he supports the push for federal funding to pay for the rail project, but he offered little detail about his efforts.
'We're working with our friends at the federal level, our congressional delegation, those in the (Obama) administration. I think it's very important,' Crist said.
MONEY AND JOBS
With the election of President Obama and the addition by Congress of stimulus money for high-speed rail throughout the nation, the Florida authority has begun holding regular meetings again, and supporters along the first two phases ó Orlando to Tampa and Orlando to Miami ó have begun a grass-roots push to get the projects under way quickly. Many speakers Tuesday spoke of the thousands of jobs that could be created by the project.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5980.0.html
FayforCure....much thanks for the information! I did not know that but assumed FDOT was the controling party and have reservations regarding them! I am also not sure that Charlie is being up front with the prospects since his comments "Working with yada yada" are not a definitive stand on much of anything!Charlie, being the politician that he is, probably will not be definitive until enough people push for HSR. Hopefully not just the short line from Orlando's airport to Mouseville but a real system that would benefit all in Florida!
not quite true....the Florida High Speed Rail Authority is staffed by FDOT
It's hard to for a novice such as myself to know who to believe. Where does one learn the truth in this matter?
Furthermore, it seems of little importance whether there is a separate entity with oversight of any project if those in control of HSR initiatives were appointed by FDOT.
When I see any big project proposed, my cynical side takes over. Trying to figure out who gets the contracts for building them, who is buying the land that will be used and so on, is impossible.
How many of these projects are used to enrich those in power and their supporters?
All?
Quote from: buckethead on September 03, 2009, 09:02:22 AM
It's hard to for a novice such as myself to know who to believe. Where does one learn the truth in this matter?
Furthermore, it seems of little importance whether there is a separate entity with oversight of any project if those in control of HSR initiatives were appointed by FDOT.
When I see any big project proposed, my cynical side takes over. Trying to figure out who gets the contracts for building them, who is buying the land that will be used and so on, is impossible.
How many of these projects are used to enrich those in power and their supporters?
All?
Well yeah buckethead, that's the beauty of the internet,......a little searching can reveal the truth with NO FDOT involvement!!!:
QuoteAmendments to the Florida Constitution (pdf)
Florida High Speed Rail Authority Act (2002) (pdf)
As required by the Act, three appointments to the Authority are made by each the Governor, the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate. The initial appointments for the Governor were for four years, the House Speaker for three years and the Senate President for two years. Subsequent appointments by each official are for four year terms.
MEMBERS
Lee Chira - Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
President, Lee Chira and Associates, based in Orlando
John P. Browning, Jr. - Vice-Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
Florida Transportation Commission Member, President of Browning Packing Company, owner of St. Johns Expeditions, based in East Palatka
Leila Nodarse, P.E - Treasurer
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
President of Nodarse and Associates, an engineering firm specializing in environmental consulting, headquartered in Winter Park
Frederick Dudley
(Re-appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Former member of the Florida Senate and now an attorney based in Tallahassee
E.H. "Bill" Pitman, P.E.
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Pitman Hartenstein and Associates, Jacksonville
Michael P. Harrell
(Appointed by Governor Jeb Bush - 2004)
Consultant with the Harrell Group
John Larkin
(Appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Alliance Capital Management Group, Orlando
C.C. "Doc" Dockery
P.O. Box 2805
Lakeland, FL 33806
863-665-6252
(Re-appointed by Senate President Jim King - 2004)
Author of the Florida High Speed Rail Constitutional Amendment
Donald Crisp
(Appointed by Speaker of the House Allan Bense - 2005)
Vice-President at First American Title Insurance Company
Denver Stuttler - Ex-officio
Secretary, Florida Department of Transportation
FORMER AUTHORITY MEMBERS
Heidi Eddins (Appointed by Governor Bush - 2001)
William Dunn (Appointed by President of the Senate Thomas McKay - 2001)
Norman Mansour (Appointed by Speaker of the House Tom Feeney - 2001)
Jennifer Closshey (Appointed by the House Speaker Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
http://flbullettrain.com/fhsra/5_railauthority.html
Mostly Republican appointees!
Quote from: buckethead on September 03, 2009, 09:02:22 AMHow many of these projects are used to enrich those in power and their supporters?
Quite true. The most avid supporter of Central Florida Commuter Rail had the Central Florida commuter rail run through his backyard.
(http://www.worldchanging.com/local/austin/acc_station_big.jpg)
Quote from: FayeforCure on September 03, 2009, 09:46:21 AM
Quote from: buckethead on September 03, 2009, 09:02:22 AM
It's hard to for a novice such as myself to know who to believe. Where does one learn the truth in this matter?
Well yeah buckethead, that's the beauty of the internet,......a little searching can reveal the truth with NO FDOT involvement!!!:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_LVJSBN6E-Gk/RffxykoAGSI/AAAAAAAAAL0/STPOQdyLolM/s400/night+station.jpg)
Easy Buckethead, go to: http://www.apta.com/Pages/default.aspx Just do a search this site on whatever mode you wish to review.
There are also advocacy groups around each mode:
BUS: http://www.busride.com/
BRT: http://www.nbrti.org/
LRT: http://www.vision42.org/
LRT: http://www.lightrailnow.org/
RAIL: http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php
Skyway: http://www.monorails.org/QuoteQuite true. The most avid supporter of Central Florida Commuter Rail had the Central Florida commuter rail run through his backyard.
That line is the funniest thing you have ever said on this site, a typical politicians spin to make the obvious seem somehow
conspiracy based.
Of course the most avid supporter of Central Florida Commuter Rail had the rail run through his backyard. I bet he was there when the South Florida Railroad was completed in December of 1883! He has lived there through the building of the Jacksonville, Tampa and Key West Railroad, The Plant System, The Atlantic Coast Line, Seaboard Coast Line, Family Lines, Seaboard System, and finally CSX. The idea that someone could support Central Florida Commuter rail, by making it jump off the CSX and pass by their house is simply a silly spin. He either lives by the track or he doesn't.
For a history of the South Florida Railroad, see my friend Donald Hensley's incredible railroad history website:
http://taplines.net/southflorida/southflorida He has published some of my material on the Ocklawaha Valley RR too!
Also if you still think this project is moving forward without the FDOT, I've got some swamp land for you. OCKLAWAHA
There lies the problem Ock! Even though passanger rail is a seperate Department FDOT is still overseeing anything that has to do with transportation period. That is an issue that will not go away and those asphalt lovers are set in their ways! Vision does not extend beyound their collective noses!
"John P. Browning, Jr. - Vice-Chairman
(Re-appointed by Speaker of the House Johnnie Byrd - 2003)
Florida Transportation Commission Member, President of Browning Packing Company, owner of St. Johns Expeditions, based in East Palatka"
This guy is one of the most dangerous and outrageous people in the state. Greedy, power mad, arrogant, above-the-law, sleazy are the nicest things people can say about him. Any board he is on needs close watching and everybody needs to watch his property transactions.
He was the representative of the Goodman Co. of Palm Beach who had plans for putting a Walmart and various other big box stores in Pottsburg Swamp on the headwaters of Julington and Durbin Creek (aka Freedom Commerce Centre). Browning found a potato farm in Hastings to serve as mitigation for the Freedom Commerce swamp.
No doubt that is why he is valuable to the FDOT.
I met with Doc Dockery in the late 1990's when high speed rail line was first getting going. I truly believe he is a sincere proponent of rail. He has persisted through all the ups and downs of the Florida high speed rail idiot naysayers.
I couldn't say whether he has any financial gain from the system but there is no doubt that that central Fla. corridor carries some of the worst traffic in the state. Orlando, Lakeland, Altamaha Springs, Maitland are the prime examples of car oriented development gone wrong. Also much that traffic is tourist oriented headed to Mouseland and surrounding big revenue entertainment industry.
Doc's vision was a rail system which would get immediate public support by relieving the pressure on I-4 as well as provide the first foot in the door to get higher speed rail in Florida.
There is nothing wrong with the vision. The problem is the actual proposed plan. It does not cater well for every day use by Central Florida residents.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 02:08:13 PM
There is nothing wrong with the vision. The problem is the actual proposed plan. It does not cater well for every day use by Central Florida residents.
I agree 100% Lake. Fact is, Doc sat at my table in the recent FRA HSR rollout in Orlando. His vision is more or less a sort of non-stop, flying train, all on exclusive right-of-way.
We (about 8 other transportation gurus) if he thought building into such an investment wouldn't be a wise move? He was pretty strong about his vision having nothing to do with Amtrak or (regular) trains. He also doesn't believe the State needs to "train" people to ride a statewide system, already in place, BEFORE we spend Billions on a new one. He seems to believe an old airline style hub and spokes system with Orlando, as the center of the universe, is the way to go. As for commuter rail, HA! He doesn't see a need beyond his flying train.
Sadly money talks, so logic and railroad history, what works and what doesn't, fails to mean a thing to him or his followers. OCKLAWAHA
Lake is right. This needs to be useful in real terms.