Real trains, not toys

[Ocklawaha]

It would work out for some but I think for most people in most cities the center of town is more convenient than the airport.

Except that downtown traffic and parking issues would be both time consuming and expensive. Not enough parking in downtown!

BTW I have been a longtime Jax Miami Amtrak supporter for those who are wondering.

Faye, the parking issue is certainly an area where someone has misinformed you. Jacksonville, and the other Florida Cities suffer from far too much parking, curbside, garages, surface etc.. This is one of the major reasons mass transit has failed to gain political clout, or a large following.  Having lived for several years in West Volusia, and Heathrow, I can tell you I'd rather drive to MIAMI or TAMPA then to the Orlando Airport. This train is a Disney set-up, and that's all it is. If "DISNEY HSR" was anything else, there would be stops at the OC Convention Center/International Drive/Universal/Sea World, but the mouse will dictate and Florida will fall in line.

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

For Ock and Faye. Cheers!

[FayeforCure]

Faye, the parking issue is certainly an area where someone has misinformed you. Jacksonville, and the other Florida Cities suffer from far too much parking, curbside, garages, surface etc.. This is one of the major reasons mass transit has failed to gain political clout, or a large following.  Having lived for several years in West Volusia, and Heathrow, I can tell you I'd rather drive to MIAMI or TAMPA then to the Orlando Airport. This train is a Disney set-up, and that's all it is. If "DISNEY HSR" was anything else, there would be stops at the OC Convention Center/International Drive/Universal/Sea World, but the mouse will dictate and Florida will fall in line.

Driving to Orlando Airport when I lived in Central Florida was never a problem to me. Driving in any downtown area however drives me crazy. I can never find nearby and affordable parking and that includes Jax. Just my own personal experience.

[FayeforCure]

Driving to Orlando Airport when I lived in Central Florida was never a problem to me. Driving in any downtown area however drives me crazy. I can never find nearby and affordable parking and that includes Jax. Just my own personal experience.

I just spoke with Nazih Hadad, Manager, Passenger Rail Development, Florida Department of Transportation after visiting the website: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/Stimulus_Application.html

Turns out, they are doing both for HSR:

Orlando AIRPORT
to
Tampa DOWNTOWN

It was where the respective airports were located, that was the deciding factor. They found Orlando airport easily accessible, not so for Tampa aiport.

He will upload the actual route to the website.

[JeffreyS]

Good work Faye

[Ocklawaha]

Driving to Orlando Airport when I lived in Central Florida was never a problem to me. Driving in any downtown area however drives me crazy. I can never find nearby and affordable parking and that includes Jax. Just my own personal experience.

I just spoke with Nazih Hadad, Manager, Passenger Rail Development, Florida Department of Transportation after visiting the website: http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/Stimulus_Application.html

Turns out, they are doing both for HSR:

Orlando AIRPORT
to
Tampa DOWNTOWN

It was where the respective airports were located, that was the deciding factor. They found Orlando airport easily accessible, not so for Tampa aiport.

He will upload the actual route to the website.

Sadly this office still doesn't get it. They do NOT plan to end the HSR at the Tampa Union Station, which is tailor made to become their surface transportation center. It once contained about 10 stub tracks and 2-3 through tracks (to Port Tampa). In spite of the hype and the supporters of HSR, THIS TRAIN IS NOT FOR US, at least not this segment, this plan, this time.

As for driving to MCO, if they are not coming out of downtown Orlando, Winter Park, Sanford, Orange City, Deland... They are pissing into the wind. To get to MCO from downtown at any of these locations either requires a trip on I-4 (which often can turn into a 1-2 hour wait) or a trip on the Greeneway, where they will ding you for $5.oo - $8.oo. If your lucky enough to be on the South end of town already, then you can enjoy the sights of Orange Blossom Trail out to Sand Lake Road and the Beach Line (which will also ding you for money). No thanks my car gets about 46 MPG on the highway and provided I can bust through the hell hole that is I-4 in downtown, I'll just drive to Tampa.

YEP! GOOD OLD MICKEY MOUSE TOWN, A RAT IN PARADISE!

As for downtown Jacksonville? You have to be kidding Faye, really? We have more parking spaces downtown then there are citizens in Alaska... The REALLY rich VIPS can rent a space with wall to wall carpeting and valet service down there for about $35.oo a month. This is simply backward, how can we expect JTA, Bus, Skyway, etc. to make any progress when we reward drivers for skipping transit because it's CHEAPER to drive and park!  We need to seriously revise lot and garage pricing downtown, dedicate more funds to transit, offer discount passes with park and ride lots in the Burbs, and go free on the curbside with time restraints.

Anybody else ever have a hard time parking in downtown Jacksonville?

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

Just recognize it for what it is.  Its an expensive train for tourist not everyday residents.  Hopefully, there will be a plan at some point in the future that addresses the commuter needs of Central Florida residents.  If we're lucky, maybe the state will wake up and work with Amtrak to establish a cheaper corridor option that runs and stops where people live in the region.

Btw, did the state officially apply for the Amtrak/FEC corridor or Sunrail ROW purchase?  Imo, both of those are more important for state/NE Florida residents than HSR.

[FayeforCure]

With a system that links walkable neighborhoods and destinations it may be feasible for people to avoid traffic congestion issues by walking instead of driving.  Howver, we're talking about two systems that will ultimately appeal to two different user groups.  I really don't see HSR (at least Florida's first phase) being anything more than a tourist train.  The line, as planned, is just not set up to serve the needs of the average Central Florida resident and commuter.

One thing you are forgetting is that taking tourists off the road will greatly improve things for Central Florida residents and commuters. However, I am still not convinced commuters won't want to ride the HSR. I used to drive from Orlando to Tampa every day for a year and I sure as heck would have liked a rail option. I'm still waiting to see what stops they plan on the HSR line.

[Ocklawaha]

Gandy Bridge, TECO line

I really don't see HSR (at least Florida's first phase) being anything more than a tourist train.  The line, as planned, is just not set up to serve the needs of the average Central Florida resident and commuter.

One thing you are forgetting is that taking tourists off the road will greatly improve things for Central Florida residents and commuters. However, I am still not convinced commuters won't want to ride the HSR. I used to drive from Orlando to Tampa every day for a year and I sure as heck would have liked a rail option. I'm still waiting to see what stops they plan on the HSR line.

One thing you are forgetting is that taking tourists off the road will only occur with the tourists that FLY into Orlando International or Tampa International Airports. Not even Sanford International (one of the fastest growing airports in the country and nearly 100% of the charter business to Central Florida) will count toward the traffic for the MMHSR (Mickey Mouse High Speed Rail). The bulk of the tourist traffic that jams I-4 and even the few that venture onto the money sucking Greeneway, have driven from Ohio, New Jersey, New York etc... They will have no reason to go and suffer through OIA or TPA to find a parking spot so they can then go see Mickey. Worse, if they are headed for Busch Gardens or Tampa, St. Pete, Clearwater, getting on a train that might dump them either at another airport or the middle of a highway interchange in Tampa, is hardly going to solve anything.

Add to this the incredible (and I think highly stacked by the highway boys at FDOT) numbers for the TBARTA "Light Rail System", and the abandonment of the natural transportation hub at Tampa Union Station, except for threadbare Amtrak service, the whole project slides into the sewer. FDOT, staffed during a Bush Presidency and "BOY BUSH," as governor, is still highly anti-rail and still sold on the BRT systems, which really aren't a system at all. Once again, heads up! This time in Tampa, I SMELL A RAT! Better check that list of officials and see who is collecting Thoroughbred's at the hobby farm in Ocala.

Few realize that in 1921 the Gandy bridge over the North Bay had TECO streetcar tracks. Photos taken just off the end of the bridge, show the TECO line running through a parkway (like Jacksonville Traction). It's time to look at the medians, the median conversions, and the curb protected side of the road running with signal priority and get all of the old TECO as well as the St. Petersburg Traction back on track. This could be done top notch for $20 - 40 Million a mile.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

I would support either system but would prefer the Amtrak solution. I believe it would reach so many more residents and help ease the investment for local commuter rail systems through out the state.

[CS Foltz]

Ock....you hit the nail on the head for sure!! Anything that comes out of FDOT is going to be asphalt oriented! Yes...downtown has plenty of parking for sure....don't forget the new digital parking meters....whopee! Still time oriented in bias of running back and forth every two hours to shove more money into the stupid things. Miss your time by ten minutes and you get a driving award! That cost's 15 bucks by the way! Metermaids show no mercy........just numbers oriented but that's another matter!

[FayeforCure]

The bulk of the tourist traffic that jams I-4 and even the few that venture onto the money sucking Greeneway, have driven from Ohio, New Jersey, New York etc... They will have no reason to go and suffer through OIA or TPA to find a parking spot so they can then go see Mickey.

I think you are underestimating the value of foreign travelers to Florida's economy:

Canadians, Europeans and Latin Americans helped rescue the summer season last year as the U.S. recession gained steam and domestic travelers stayed home.

www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/1067285.html

Remember many of those foreign tourists are very used to taking a train. That frees up the freeways to local commuters.

[CS Foltz]

Tourism is the number one industry in the State and makes sense to have a system outsiders are accustomed to using........not to mention those of us here already could use it also! Moving people around should be on everyones agenda. Just wish FDOT were not involved to the extent they are....maybe its time to have a seperate Agency dedicated to rail?

[JeffreyS]

CS it indeed seems when you umbrella mass transit under general transportation administrations concrete always wins.

[FayeforCure]

CS it indeed seems when you umbrella mass transit under general transportation administrations concrete always wins.

Not when there are dedicated federal dollars out there for HSR, ready for the taking.

BTW the FDOT has a separate Passenger Rail Development section, and the High Speed Rail Authority was set up entirely separate from FDOT.

A NEW RAIL AUTHORITY


The Florida Legislature created the current Florida High Speed Rail Authority in 2001, and hired consultants, advertising for contractors and completing environmental engineering studies for the first phase between Orlando and Tampa. Bush, in the meantime, had supporters get enough petition signatures to put the amendment issue back on the ballot, and voters repealed the requirement that the state must build the system.

However, the governor miscalculated, because the rail authority, having been created by the Legislature, was not tied to the amendment, so it continued to operate. He asked the nine members to disband, but they refused.

The Legislature, which created the authority, also refused to decommission it, and the authority went into a kind of hibernation for the last two years of Bush's administration.

Authority members and other high-speed rail supporters were heartened by the election of Charlie Crist as governor in 2006, but Crist has yet to reappoint members of the authority or to meet with them.

Since the offer of federal stimulus money, however, Crist has announced his support. He said again on Tuesday that he supports the push for federal funding to pay for the rail project, but he offered little detail about his efforts.

'We're working with our friends at the federal level, our congressional delegation, those in the (Obama) administration. I think it's very important,' Crist said.


MONEY AND JOBS

With the election of President Obama and the addition by Congress of stimulus money for high-speed rail throughout the nation, the Florida authority has begun holding regular meetings again, and supporters along the first two phases ó Orlando to Tampa and Orlando to Miami ó have begun a grass-roots push to get the projects under way quickly. Many speakers Tuesday spoke of the thousands of jobs that could be created by the project.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5980.0.html