Real trains, not toys

[JeffreyS]

Real trains, not toys
August 8, 2009
http://www.pnj.com/article/20090808/OPINION/908080301/1021/OPINION01

We'd love to see passenger rail service restored to Pensacola. But the only way to do it is to do it right.
We don't need sporadic service from old trains riding on inadequate rails that limit speeds to less than cars traveling on adjoining interstate highways. If it's going to take five hours to get to New Orleans, that's not our idea of convenient or competitive.

What we need is a modern, high-speed rail system that performs like the rail systems in Europe, where the trains are taking passengers away from the airlines and off the roads because they are fast, comfortable and convenient.

Ideally we can imagine a high-speed rail system connecting Chicago, Atlanta, Pensacola, Mobile, New Orleans, Orlando, Jacksonville or other cities.

Does it have to pay for itself strictly from ticket revenues?

No, although in some corridors rail service does turn a profit. But let's not fall for the myth that we don't already subsidize highway travel. We do.

State and local governments here and across the United States subsidize highway travel with a variety of taxes, including sales and property taxes, because fuel taxes don't cover all the costs, even of construction and maintenance. Especially when you add in the cost of traffic signals, police, and emergency response to traffic accidents.

Until recently the U.S. government has subsidized Amtrak with about $1.5 billion a year. That's not a subsidy, it's a joke.

Congress and the Obama administration included $1.3 billion for Amtrak in the stimulus bill, but it's a pitifully small amount compared to the investment needed to seriously upgrade passenger train service. Compare that to spending in excess of $10 billion a month during the height of the Iraq War, and the wasteful priorities of the government come clear.

For a fraction of what has been spent in Iraq we could have built a modern rail system that would be the envy of the world. But, of course, the critics always say we can't afford it.

What we can't afford is passenger rail as a novelty. There's no point in bringing toy trains to Pensacola.

[FayeforCure]

I LOVE this quote:

For a fraction of what has been spent in Iraq we could have built a modern rail system that would be the envy of the world. But, of course, the critics always say we can't afford it.

What we can't afford is passenger rail as a novelty. There's no point in bringing toy trains to Pensacola.

The lip service many of our leaders have given passenger rail, and the vested interests that have been advanced under the nomer of passenger rail has been appalling.

[Ocklawaha]

As good as the story sounds, and as good as the intentions of it's author, the Pensacola News Journal and press in general have been quite a vocal enemy of passenger train service.

One article probably within the last year or so, suggested all kinds of "good" uses for the new train station that was built for the Sunset Limited. (Though small, the classic lines of this replica depot put our Amshack to shame)

Pensacola and the Panhandle need to get on the train. People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.

Pensacola offers a great opportunity for a Federal-Florida-Alabama joint project. Some years ago CSX proposed a cutoff from the Pensacola Bay Bridge, directly northwest past the power plant to the border crossing near Floamington, AL.. Wouldn't it be interesting if we could stretch that cutoff all the way to the East side of the Mobile Bay crossing? There has NEVER been a direct route from Pensacola to Mobile, making for a very long and roundabout trip.

So far Amtrak has suffered through 30+ years of being funded like a Wal-Mart store with only one can of soup on all of its empty shelves. But they only put that can out for 30 minutes twice daily. Sorry folks THAT AIN'T SERVICE.

OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.

I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."

A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.

Here is the quote by the other Rail Expert:

Just as the freeway spurred greater auto usage and auto centric development, high speed rail can and will spur more mass transit usage and rail connections to and from a major station.
We should not fear building HSR in cities without great mass transit systems. HSR can be the catalyst to improving mass transit.

[thelakelander]

Why does Amtrak have to be a "runky-dink" train?  In reality, Amtrak has partnered with other states to provide a quality level of service for a fraction of the money it will cost taxpayers for HSR in the middle of I-4.  We should seriously look at implementing a statewide intercity rail corridor service (similar to what's running in California) that serves the needs of the average Florida resident just as much as a train built for carrying tourist from MCO to Disney.

[Ocklawaha]

People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.

I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."

A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.

Here is the quote by the other Rail Expert:

Just as the freeway spurred greater auto usage and auto centric development, high speed rail can and will spur more mass transit usage and rail connections to and from a major station.
We should not fear building HSR in cities without great mass transit systems. HSR can be the catalyst to improving mass transit.

Agreed Lakelander, Amtrak is not a joke in California, the Pacific Northwest, NC or IL, where the States have a record of supporting transportation. Florida doesn't.

Cover this up however you want but NOBODY lives on I-4, and none of the locals are interested in driving to BFE to get to the Orlando Airport in order to ride to Disney. They won't park there to ride to Tampa Airport either because it's easier to DRIVE to Tampa then to get to the Orlando Airport from Orlando. This whole thing has a distinct MICKEY MOUSE smell to it.

On that last quote, no one in their right mind builds a freeway without first having the connecting ramps IN PLACE. Yet these "experts" claim if we just build it, suddenly LRT, BRT, STREETCARS, MONORAILS etc. will just magically sprout all over Florida. NOT!

Amtrak or another private contractor operating on current trackage is the way to grow this system.


OCKLAWAHA

[FayeforCure]

Why does Amtrak have to be a "runky-dink" train?  In reality, Amtrak has partnered with other states to provide a quality level of service for a fraction of the money it will cost taxpayers for HSR in the middle of I-4.  We should seriously look at implementing a statewide intercity rail corridor service (similar to what's running in California) that serves the needs of the average Florida resident just as much as a train built for carrying tourist from MCO to Disney.

Where did I say Amtrak was rinky-dink? I was referring to the article NOT Amtrak.

But there are some Florida Republicans who Have HATED Amtrak: John Mica

[thelakelander]

^I thought you were referring to Ock's comment about starting with Amtrak above.

People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.

I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."

A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.

[FayeforCure]

^I thought you were referring to Ock's comment about starting with Amtrak above.

People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail. We have to start someplace and Amtrak could be a great start if we would just fund it.

I agree with other train experts that say we need to start anywhere where feasible there is no "certain order in which to proceed."

A super-train would be used if there is adequate frequency of service. But a runky-dink train would put off serious ridership indefinitely.

No, I responded to this part of Ocks statement:

People are not going to flock to some super-train if they have never even been exposed to the concept of passenger rail.

And I vehemently disagree.

[JeffreyS]

I think people would love super trains. Florida's HSR concept is airport to airport where Amtrak is downtown to downtown. You know what the best method to get to another city's airport is? Answer Fly.

[FayeforCure]

I think people would love super trains. Florida's HSR concept is airport to airport where Amtrak is downtown to downtown. You know what the best method to get to another city's airport is? Answer Fly.

Yes that used to be the answer in Europe too for nearby cities, however air connections have been reduced due to the popularity of airport to airport HSR.

[Ocklawaha]

I think people would love super trains. Florida's HSR concept is airport to airport where Amtrak is downtown to downtown. You know what the best method to get to another city's airport is? Answer Fly.

Yes that used to be the answer in Europe too for nearby cities, however air connections have been reduced due to the popularity of airport to airport HSR.

Can't imagine a single person that would rather drive to JIA in order to catch a train to MCO, even if gas was 34 cents a gallon. By the time one got to the airport, find a parking spot, and board your train, Amtrak's Silver Meteor will be rolling into DELAND, 50 miles to go.  (remember security and ONE HOUR before your boarding call). I will be found in the lounge car, having eaten a full breakfast in the dinning car. You'll be suffering from frustration and heartburn.

OCKLAWAHA

[JeffreyS]

It would work out for some but I think for most people in most cities the center of town is more convenient than the airport.

[FayeforCure]

It would work out for some but I think for most people in most cities the center of town is more convenient than the airport.

Except that downtown traffic and parking issues would be both time consuming and expensive. Not enough parking in downtown!

BTW I have been a longtime Jax Miami Amtrak supporter for those who are wondering.

[thelakelander]

With a system that links walkable neighborhoods and destinations it may be feasible for people to avoid traffic congestion issues by walking instead of driving.  Howver, we're talking about two systems that will ultimately appeal to two different user groups.  I really don't see HSR (at least Florida's first phase) being anything more than a tourist train.  The line, as planned, is just not set up to serve the needs of the average Central Florida resident and commuter.