Metro Jacksonville

Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2388-dsc_0034.JPG)

After receiving significant support from local governments along the East Coast, FDOT recently submitted a request to use federal dollars to bring high-speed passenger rail to the FEC corridor.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jacksonville-to-miami-passenger-rail-returning

Excellent plan. I'm glad they are moving on this!

You can find all of the applications Florida has submitted (including Tampa to Orlando HSR) on the FDOT Stimulus website

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/economicstimulus/

I call the patio seat in the courtyard of the St. Augustine station, its the same seat I occupied while making sure i was the last first class passenger to ever board an FEC passenger train. Seems sureal that I might live to be one of the first passengers as well.

We need to push hard for a new station with intermodal built in, in San Marco. This location while not that far from Union Terminal  is very close to the old South Jacksonville station of the FEC. The benefit is since this was a station it should still be in the tariff books and thus FEC has it scheduled as a station.

(Words of correction, it's not a "sattelite station" Lake, to put it in the words of the railroad lexicon, it would properly be called a "WAY STATION". )

I'd also encourage our brothers and sisters in Bunell/Palm Coast, Ormond and New Smyrna Beach to get after this program. We all need to encourage Amtrak to spread out our shedule times. Currently 2 round trips daily each to New York and to South/Central Florida. So what has Amtrak done? Runs them back to back within a 2 hour time slot. Rather then southbound at 7:AM and 9:AM, we should have one at 9:AM and another at 11: PM. It's all about CHOICE!  

OCKLAWAHA

This will be great for Jacksonville. Riding the train down to Miami for a long weekend would be a great thing. And by 2012 it will probably cost less than the gas I would spend if I drove.

Also notice the application for the Central Florida commuter rail and all its mention of connections to Jacksonville.

I was just doing a bit of reserach and came across this little tidbit. The property directly behind the old Union Terminal, where the passing siding once was, until the track was torn up, is owned by a private person and not any of the railroads or the city of Jax. Currently value of that narrow strip of land...$187,500. Wanna bet the owners hold out for a whole lot more than that if this entire plan comes true and if Amtrak wants to move the station closer to downtown? And thats not counting the cost it would take to relay track and turnouts at each end. My guess is Amtrak stays right where its it. Maybe upgrade the station a bit. But they stay on Clifford Lane.

Anyone have an idea of what a roundtrip like this would cost, and how long it would take? I fly down there several times a year and its only about $130 roundtrip on southwest. Way easier than driving, this could be a possibilty if its cheaper than that and doesnt take 5+hrs like driving.

Right now its $110 RT to Miami, but thats by way of Tampa..and its also 9 hours. Again just a guess, but I think it would be under 100 bucks easy and not take as long. And Amtrak always has hot deals on their website. I have gone RT to Miami for about 60 dollars. Just have to check the website. Right now for example, Jax to NY is $117 if I travel on Aug 4. Regular price is $201. Might still be longer than driving but think how relaxed you would be looking out the coach windows at all that traffic in South Florida and knowing you are not out in it! Thats gotta worth dollars right there.

Not to rain on anyone's parade but I'd like to offer a few corrections and reality checks...

1)  This is a refinement of standard Amtrak service, not high speed rail.  According to the United States Federal Railroad Administration's (extremely lenient) definition, trains must operate above 90 MPH to be classified as high speed rail.  **Compare this with the European Union's standard of 125+ MPH!**

2)  Many times these projects are more to make a political statement than to offer a true high speed transportation option.  A perfect example is the current "high speed rail" project in New York state.  The state and federal government is currently in negotiations with CSX to operate its Amtrak trains up to 110 MPH along CSX right-of-way.  Sounds great, but the catch is that Amtrak already operates its trains at 110 MPH along much of that line.  Even though the entire budget of the NY project will be spent on upgrading existing right-of-way, the government is advertising it as "new high speed rail service."  Not a bad project at all, but it is by no means an extension of Acela as federal officials want people to believe.

3)  Purchasing of new equipment is not part of this plan.  This new route involves simply routing trains over a new line, not buying new locomotives and passenger cars.

4)  I cannot see Amtrak stopping in San Marco when the main Jacksonville station is located only several miles away.  A stop midway between St. Augustine and Jacksonville (Avenues or Nocatee) is more realistic, but I doubt the demand exists to justify a station.  Amtrak is not pushing this project to give Jacksonville a shot at commuter rail.  This plan is for statewide travel along the east coast, period.

5)  I'd like to point out that in the proposal, it is specifically mentioned that Jacksonville will be the division point between Amtrak service via CSX to the north and the proposed FEC line service to the south.  Being a division point, Jacksonville is the natural location for crew changes, the servicing of equipment, and therefore layovers for passengers.  Do we want layover passengers to wander the rundown, crime-ridden streets of the Northside, or fuel the economic growth of our downtown...  In other words, the city needs to get on the ball and relocate the station to the "proposed" downtown transportation center (which we haven't heard anything about for months now!).

Again, I'm not trying to be negative at all.  This is a great opportunity for Jacksonville and the state, but it should by no means be viewed as true high speed rail or "The Acela of Florida."

Quote from: ralpho37 on July 23, 2009, 12:19:46 PM
Not to rain on anyone's parade but I'd like to offer a few corrections and reality checks...

1)  This is a refinement of standard Amtrak service, not high speed rail.  According to the United States Federal Railroad Administration's (extremely lenient) definition, trains must operate above 90 MPH to be classified as high speed rail.  **Compare this with the European Union's standard of 125+ MPH!**

Its actually the start of what could grow into a corridor service.  The money going to pay to increase track capacity is also something Jacksonville could possibly piggyback, in regards to JTA's commuter rail plans.  According to this application, Tri-Rail intends to do the same thing to gain access to the FEC corridor in South Florida.

Quote2)  Many times these projects are more to make a political statement than to offer a true high speed transportation option.  A perfect example is the current "high speed rail" project in New York state.  The state and federal government is currently in negotiations with CSX to operate its Amtrak trains up to 110 MPH along CSX right-of-way.  Sounds great, but the catch is that Amtrak already operates its trains at 110 MPH along much of that line.  Even though the entire budget of the NY project will be spent on upgrading existing right-of-way, the government is advertising it as "new high speed rail service."  Not a bad project at all, but it is by no means an extension of Acela as federal officials want people to believe.

I believe our focus on true HSR is overrated.  Even the HSR Tampa/Orlando link is anticipated to only average 86 mph.  What we really need is to improve track to bring the areas of low speed up to a respectable level to increase average travel times along routes.

Quote3)  Purchasing of new equipment is not part of this plan.  This new route involves simply routing trains over a new line, not buying new locomotives and passenger cars.

The application suggests that new and refurbished rolling stock is a part of the request.

Quote4)  I cannot see Amtrak stopping in San Marco when the main Jacksonville station is located only several miles away.  A stop midway between St. Augustine and Jacksonville (Avenues or Nocatee) is more realistic, but I doubt the demand exists to justify a station.  Amtrak is not pushing this project to give Jacksonville a shot at commuter rail.  This plan is for statewide travel along the east coast, period.

Amtrak may not be pushing to give Jax the best shot at commuter rail.  However, Jax does have the opportunity to use Amtrak as a stepping stone to getting their plans off the ground.  An example of this would be Amtrak increasing track capacity on the FEC.  That's something we would have to pay locally for commuter rail.  Having Amtrak come in first and share in the costs, reduces the capital costs of everything we'll have to fund to implement commuter rail.  A second thing we should look at is moving the Amshack station back downtown.  This not only benefits us, it will benefit Amtrak to have a higher profile location that has the ability to draw additional riders to their intercity and future corridor services.  In any event, we should not expect Amtrak to plan these things for us, our city must step up and make a case.

As for a stop midway between Jax and St. Augustine, it is something that should be studied.  If Polk County can support two Amtrak stations, a place twice the size should be able to as well.  The population of the Southside/Northern St. Johns County is already higher than that of Palm Coast's, Stuart's and a couple of other places that will have new stations.  We might be surprised to see what we can support if we can work it into the updated study process.

Quote5)  I'd like to point out that in the proposal, it is specifically mentioned that Jacksonville will be the division point between Amtrak service via CSX to the north and the proposed FEC line service to the south.  Being a division point, Jacksonville is the natural location for crew changes, the servicing of equipment, and therefore layovers for passengers.  Do we want layover passengers to wander the rundown, crime-ridden streets of the Northside, or fuel the economic growth of our downtown...  In other words, the city needs to get on the ball and relocate the station to the "proposed" downtown transportation center (which we haven't heard anything about for months now!).

Great points.  These should be used by Jacksonville to convince others that this plan should include returning Jacksonville's station downtown.

QuoteAgain, I'm not trying to be negative at all.  This is a great opportunity for Jacksonville and the state, but it should by no means be viewed as true high speed rail or "The Acela of Florida."

Its definitely not Acela or true HSR.  We should view this for what it is.  An opportunity for better rail connectivity and mobility between Jacksonville, St. Augustine and other communities.  As well as a stepping stone to moving forward on our own commuter rail plans.

It not being 125mph high speed rail is a plus much less money about the same benefit.  Eliminating slow spots is much more important than creating higher top ends.  Avenues area would be the perfect mid point stop shopping, entertainment and lots of new homes in the area.  Amtrak downtown at the Jax terminal is the most important part for our city.

Lakelander:  I definitely agree with you on all those points.  Also... "Amshack," very nice!

JeffreyS:  Eliminating slow spots is a perfect example of what is being done in the New York City-Albany corridor.  Most of the improvements that are being applied are to eliminate these "slow spots."  As I stated earlier, there are sections along that route that run 110 MPH, however, there are also several areas that narrow from double track to single track, small railroad yards, and even grade crossings where the 110 speed limit drops to 50 and even 30.

Again, it is very exciting news that this is being set in motion.  Just making sure we're not making this into something it's not.  Also, let's hope that Jacksonville can seize this opportunity by moving its station back downtown and becoming a true railroad hub again!

I can drive from Jax to Miami in under six hours. (Legally!)  If the train can't cut at least one hour off that time, an average of about 60mph, then forget about it.  If I have to drive out to the station in North Jax and pay to park my car then it had better be at least another thirty minutes off the travel time.

Parking is free at the train station...and remember the more station stops you have, the slower the overall trip. Can't have 10 station stops between Jax and Miami and still expect it to get there in 5 hours.

Quote from: jbroadglide on July 23, 2009, 03:00:45 PM
Parking is free at the train station...and remember the more station stops you have, the slower the overall trip. Can't have 10 station stops between Jax and Miami and still expect it to get there in 5 hours.

Which is why train travel won't grow in this country until we can get high(er) speed rail like every other developed country in the world has already.  Paris to Lyon is about the same distance as Jax-Miami.  The trip takes less than two hours and stops five or six times on the way.  The trains run every thirty minutes from city center to city center.

There's a very good chance, most of the riders originating out of Jacksonville could be headed no farther south than St. Augustine and vise versa.  Why the focus on just Jax - Miami or long distance?  What about St. Augustine, Palm Coast, Daytona, Titusville, Cocoa, Melbourne, Fort Pierce and Stuart?  This is where rail can excel. 

Quote from: Dog Walker on July 23, 2009, 03:10:26 PM
Which is why train travel won't grow in this country until we can get high(er) speed rail like every other developed country in the world has already.  Paris to Lyon is about the same distance as Jax-Miami.  The trip takes less than two hours and stops five or six times on the way.  The trains run every thirty minutes from city center to city center.

Dog, that appears to imply some 200 mph average travel speed assuming 300 miles and 1.5 hours net of 5 stops @ 5 minutes each.  Is this correct?

It is about time that we bring passenger rail service back to Florida's east coast.  I hope that Jacksonville's city council will join the other localities in passing a resolution in support.

It would be nice for Jax. City Council to do it....but JTA and the TPO already did....and outside of Jax (and for most here) JTA is assumed to be the City.

Here is the reality check.  An $8 billion dollar budget and $102 billion in requests by 40 states and DC.  When the music stops, there will not be enough chairs for every player.

QuoteGrant requests roll in for high-speed rail
by Finance and Commerce staff

The Midwest has lots of competition when it comes to vying for federal grants for high-speed rail.

On July 16, the U.S. Department of Transportation announced that the Federal Rail Administration has received 278 “pre-applications” for grants from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act’s High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail competitive grant program.

The pre-applications represent $102 billion in requested funds; the ARRA’s $8 billion competitive grant program is a “down payment to develop high-speed and intercity passenger rail networks,” according to a DOT press release.

The president has proposed a continuing $1 billion “annual investment to further this effort,” the release continues.

By region, the breakdown of the pre-applications includes: $38 billion in requests from the West, $35 billion from the Northeast, $16 billion from the South/Southeast and $13 billion from the Midwest.

Forty states and the District of Columbia filed pre-applications.  “The response has been tremendous and shows that the country is ready for high-speed rail,” U.S. Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood said in a statement.

http://www.finance-commerce.com/article.cfm/2009/07/22/Grant-requests-roll-in-for-highspeed-rail

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Amshack St. Louis, MO.

Quote from: ralpho37 on July 23, 2009, 01:55:51 PM
Lakelander:  I definitely agree with you on all those points.  Also... "Amshack," very nice!

JeffreyS:  Eliminating slow spots is a perfect example of what is being done in the New York City-Albany corridor.  Most of the improvements that are being applied are to eliminate these "slow spots."  As I stated earlier, there are sections along that route that run 110 MPH, however, there are also several areas that narrow from double track to single track, small railroad yards, and even grade crossings where the 110 speed limit drops to 50 and even 30.

Again, it is very exciting news that this is being set in motion.  Just making sure we're not making this into something it's not.  Also, let's hope that Jacksonville can seize this opportunity by moving its station back downtown and becoming a true railroad hub again!

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Albany, NY. Amshack

All, you have heard me refer to the station on the northside as an Amshack for some time. This is NOT to say all Amtrak stations are Amshacks, in fact far from it. Most of the stations nationwide are historic, gingerbread, Gothic, colonial, art deco, Egyptian, or any number of other grand and eye popping styles. The term Amshack is not mine either, rather a handle that the railroaders placed on a batch of quickly designed replacement stations across the country within 3-4 years of their start. REMEMBER Amtrak was at first staffed by former airline and bus folks because according to the US House, Railroaders no longer knew how to operate a passenger service. (BTW, these guys self destructed in record time dragging Amtrak into a stew of endless abandonment schemes and slander). St. Louis, Poinciana, Jacksonville, Norfolk, Cincinnati, Norfolk and a handful of others all got replacement stations of shoebox size... THUS the birth of the "AMSHACK". Anyone making a pilgrimage from Jacksonville Terminal to Clifford Lane will quickly convert to the doctrine of Amshacks - a house of shame. What's worse is that at least 1/2 of the Amshack's are abandoned already.

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Elko, NV. Amshack

Quote from: Dog Walker on July 23, 2009, 02:42:59 PM
I can drive from Jax to Miami in under six hours. (Legally!)  If the train can't cut at least one hour off that time, an average of about 60mph, then forget about it.  If I have to drive out to the station in North Jax and pay to park my car then it had better be at least another thirty minutes off the travel time.

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Birmingham, AL. Amshack (where Terminal Station once stood)

Dog Walker, try the same high speed run with 8 - 12 stops of 4 minutes each. Include one half way point stop for a bit of servicing... say New Smyrna Beach or Fort Pierce. Also you MUST operate only on US highway 1. If your still talking about 5 hours then be my guest! The last FEC train made the run leaving Jax at 9:55 am and arrival in Miami at 4:35 pm. It seldom got above 60 miles per hour (as the FEC wanted it to GO AWAY and thus discouraged passenger travel). 90 may not be true high speed rail, but if you look at the fastest growing corridors in the nation... San Joaquin Valley, California Coastal Routes, Washington-Oregon Cascade Corridor etc... NONE are high speed. Just frequent, reliable, clean, comfortable trains and they have killed the airlines and dented auto traffic all along their routes. This proved that it's not speed as much as it is overall experience with the product that sells seats. Never consider train travel in the same breath as airlines, bus or car, rail travel has more in common with a cruise ships then any of the former. Because one can move about, visit different cars, relax in a honest to God pub/tavern/lounge, or eat in the 5 star restaurant with changing views set it worlds apart. For many years (perhaps still) the Silver Meteor or Star had a piano in the lounge with live music at night, I defy anyone to try that on a scheduled 737. Movies, dances, fashion shows, card games, phone calls, or just plain shooting the breeze is the ultimate experience while "driving".

Train virgins are easy to spot. They are the ones sitting while starving and think the food cart will roll past at any moment.
They think in terms of point A to point B, leave A and arrive at B, they can't tell you what anything looked like between the points. Sadly this is the same Generation of Virgins that think Columbus was the mayor of Ohio. They are so accustomed to 14" seats that they rush on the train and place a brief case in the seat next to them, as if to guard it from takeover. Later in the trip the Conductor will walk past and explain that the 14" plus the 14" beside that are ALL ONE SEAT and the virgin owns it. They'll endlessly boast about finding a flight out on that stormy cold Chicago night 3 years ago, and how though delayed 10 hours, they finally made it St. Louis. Meanwhile somewhere far below, Amtrak's Ann Rutledge was whipping up its own blizzard 2 minutes ahead of schedule and into St. Louis on the advertised. Amtrak virgins will most often drink the liquid from the finger bowl, or order a hamburger in the dining car. If they did slow down enough to read the menu, the fillet of Mountain Trout, Queen Ann Soup, or stuffed pork tenderloins on real china and crystal might have spoiled them for life.

Last but not least, I agree that The Avenues is a MUST for a future commuter rail stop, but then so is San Marco. This would be like the Orlando - Winter Park, back - to - back stops. In fact the original South Jacksonville station was North of Atlantic AND San Marco in the area between the old South Jacksonville city buildings and the JEA switching station. Winter Park has no great barrier between it and Orlando, but Jacksonville has the river AND the potential of the Skyway meeting the trains in San Marco or Jackson Square, as well as the main Jacksonville Terminal.  

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Houston's "Grand Central Station" = AMSHACK

OCKLAWAHA

Ock..so well said that there is nothing that can be added to make it better!

Quote from: stjr on July 23, 2009, 04:51:31 PM

Quote from: Dog Walker on July 23, 2009, 03:10:26 PM
Which is why train travel won't grow in this country until we can get high(er) speed rail like every other developed country in the world has already.  Paris to Lyon is about the same distance as Jax-Miami.  The trip takes less than two hours and stops five or six times on the way.  The trains run every thirty minutes from city center to city center.

Dog, that appears to imply some 200 mph average travel speed assuming 300 miles and 1.5 hours net of 5 stops @ 5 minutes each.  Is this correct?

Yes, the train runs faster than 200mph.  The trip take almost TWO hours though.  There was a speed record set on that track with test train a couple of years ago that topped out at over 300mph.  This makes us look like a third world country.  I think passenger trains in India have a higher average speed than ours.

One thing to remember that allows the French Train to go at such speeds is that there are no grade crossings. No place where a 200mph train might hit a car with a white haired old lady who was too deaf or too disoriented to see the warning gates and lights flashing. In the NE Corridor where the Acela can run at its top speeds there are also no grade crossings. To do that between Jax and Miami would require FEC, the state of Florida, Amtrak and the DOT to either close every single grade crossing, my guess hundreds of them, or make the grade crossing so idiot proof that there is no possible way anyone could be on the tracks when a train is approaching..And we all know the stupidity of Florida drivers and how they just can't afford to wait 30 seconds for a train to pass. Or raising or lowering the highways to either go over or under the tracks. All of those options are costly and probably will never happen. So seeing a true High Speed Rail, ala France, Japan or England is just never going to happen here in Florida.

They had the same grade crossing problem in Europe.  In the cities, the TGV runs on the regular tracks at regular speeds.  In the countryside, where they really fly,  and there are way fewer grade crossing, they elevate the tracks or lower the roadway or both.

In Europe, people seem to respect the crossings more than in this country.  It may be because the trains are so much more frequent and moving faster.  Maybe they are shorter too.

We are a much richer country than France.  If they could afford a high speed rail system, why can't we.  It's a matter of priorities, not cost.

Europe was able to grow their hsr from active passenger train societies we stunted our passenger train growth long ago so we may have to take some growth steps before true hsr is an option.

I think that we can work to remove the single grade crossings but it would require the same kind of funding and patience that we invest in our freeway upgrades.  I drive along the I-95/I-10 interchange and wonder when they will finish that neverending project - but I think about how much better things will be when it is finished.

The best upgrade for rail travel in our area, in my opinion, will be the return of a passenger rail terminal to downtown Jacksonville.  The current facility on Clifford Lane is shameful as it does nothing for arriving out-of-town passengers.  Even our Greyhound station has better amenities for people as they come into our city.  As it is now, all you have are restrooms and snack machines.  Even if passengers wanted to spend their money in our area, they are stuck with buying a soda and a bag of chips.

FYI...each at-grade crossing replaced by an overpass would cost $10 million or more.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 24, 2009, 09:30:29 PM
FYI...each at-grade crossing replaced by an overpass would cost $10 million or more.

Another option and favorite of railroads:  Just close and/or abandon the crossings and redirect the traffic elsewhere.  Many have been closed in Jax over the years and at least one, River Oaks Road, is under discussion.

Quote from: Jaxson on July 24, 2009, 09:13:16 PM
The best upgrade for rail travel in our area, in my opinion, will be the return of a passenger rail terminal to downtown Jacksonville.  The current facility on Clifford Lane is shameful as it does nothing for arriving out-of-town passengers.  Even our Greyhound station has better amenities for people as they come into our city.  As it is now, all you have are restrooms and snack machines.  Even if passengers wanted to spend their money in our area, they are stuck with buying a soda and a bag of chips.

So the question becomes, how do we get JTA, the TPO, Mayor's Office and City Council to aggressively lobby to have this added to the Amtrak/FEC Project?

JTA is going to ask for Stimulus Funds for the Jax Transprotation Center - but I think that is just the part north of Bay Street - not the Amtrak part.

I noticed in the application that the 2002 studies will have to be updated.  It seems like this would be a good opportunity to lobby to push the Amtrak part of the JTC into the FEC corridor project.  On the surface, it would seem a station downtown would have the ability to attract more riders to this system than the existing one off Clifford Lane.

That is a good question, Lakelander, about how we can get our local city leaders to support moving the passenger rail station back downtown. 
I firmly believe that our city has been chasing after pipe dreams with regard to reviving downtown.  Remember the scheme to sell hot dogs on the Main Street Bridge?  Well, city leaders should wake up and see that a steady stream of out-of-towners stopping in the downtown area to switch trains (From CSX to FEC lines) would be great for downtown retail.  Whenever I am changing trains in D.C. or NY, that is what I normally do - I stop for a meal at a local eatery and often buy things from their retailers.  Right now, the Amshack does nothing to promote our city or serve passengers.

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 24, 2009, 05:25:35 PM
Europe was able to grow their hsr from active passenger train societies we stunted our passenger train growth long ago so we may have to take some growth steps before true hsr is an option.

Railroads throughout Europe were bankrupt from WWI forward. It was America that kicked the house down then went in and rebuilt it. On a continent with a far denser population base, fewer road miles, automobiles and an industrial base in utter shambles, by the end of WWII any serious travel was by train. The post war trains were pulled by new "General Electric," "Baldwin," "Alco," "EMD," and "Fairbanks Morse," diesels or electric locomotives "MADE IN THE USA." Box Cars, flat cars and other freight equipment was tiny by American standards, but it fit the field. As industry grew back so did the size, weight and speed of the equipment. Not unlike modern highways, heavy vehicles beat the hell out of track too, a curse that the European nations didn't have to contend with while they built their passenger networks.

Quote from: Dog Walker on July 23, 2009, 03:10:26 PM

Quote from: jbroadglide on July 23, 2009, 03:00:45 PM
Parking is free at the train station...and remember the more station stops you have, the slower the overall trip. Can't have 10 station stops between Jax and Miami and still expect it to get there in 5 hours.

Which is why train travel won't grow in this country until we can get high(er) speed rail like every other developed country in the world has already.  Paris to Lyon is about the same distance as Jax-Miami.  The trip takes less than two hours and stops five or six times on the way.  The trains run every thirty minutes from city center to city center.

Won't grow? Oh silly us, somebody inform Amtrak because their growth is well into double didgets from 1971 until today, with the steepest climb all within the last 5 years. Those 5 years have been horrible from a corporate standpoint. Republican axe killers behind every BUSH... and a BUSH that refused to consider Amtrak in any formula but closure. Time and again schedules were lengthened, equipment wrecked (fender benders) with no replacement cars or money, and trains cut off (Ocala, Waldo, Dade City). Yet the numbers continued to soar. Train lengths were shortened from 22 cars to 18, then to 16 or 10, and finally down to 4 or 5 cars per train on many routes. Still, the numbers keep improving.

Train virgins just don't get it. A train from Jacksonville to Los Angeles, New York or Miami, has little to do with Jacksonville to Los Angeles, New York or Miami! Lake is right when he said it's a train to St. Augustine, Savannah, Madison or Wildwood.
The benefit being that the same "747 like, intercontinental  luxury vehicle," that stops in New York City, is also the vehicle that stops in Jacksonville, Klamath Falls and Texarkanna. That same royal coach that served President Obama on his trip to Washington and the White House, has been through every great city of North America, and Much of Central America. Yet it lives in "ORANGE PARK FLORIDA." The amazing luxury, speed, comfort and safety afforded by the greatest man on our continent is likewise available to you and I. How is this done? The magic of the silver rails, where every trip and every stop is an adventure and every station is as important as the palace of the king.  


OCKLAWAHA

OCKLAWAHA  -- Thanks for introducing me to a new word (Amshack).  It is the perfect way to describe our shabby little station at Clifford Lane.  I am glad that Amtrak is working to replace Amshacks.  I visited the nicer, new train stations in St. Louis and in Albany.  They both have food and drink available for passengers.  I remember that the St. Louis station was intermodal with Greyhound service in the station.

Is MetroJax currently doing any lobbying to move the station back downtown?  If not it needs to happen!

YES.  We've been pushing for the return of Amtrak back to downtown for a while now.  Both JTA and the Mayor's office are well aware of our efforts.  You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it.

Btw, the long range plans for the JTC include the relocation of Amtrak but funding has been difficult to secure.  Metro Jacksonville's position is that there may be an opportunity to tie in the funding to relocate Amtrak to downtown within the Amtrak/FEC Corridor project.

If Amtrak returned to downtown, where would be a good location for the station/depot?  The old convention center?  On the Southbank?

The reason why I am asking this is because if I am not wrong, most of those old tracks behind the convention center were removed yes?  It's hard for me to imagine where the station would be; not too many tracks leading into downtown proper, mostly on the outskirts of downtown or in the Southbank area.

Heights Unknown

Heights Unknown

The station would be at the old terminal (convention center). 

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(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3380-p1070725.JPG)

Okay thanks Lake, that's good to hear that MetroJax is pushing this thing.  In my opinion, moving Amtrak back downtown and constructing a new convention center should be the top priorities of our city.  I think they should've been higher priorities than the new courthouse to tell the truth.

Check out this week's Folio.  I wrote a Backpage Editorial about Amtrak and Florida. 

P.S. - One minor correction, the Silver Star arrives in Miami at 8AM!

Thanks, I'll pick up a copy this afternoon.

I mentioned the Amtrak/FEC issue on the radio yesterday.  I had a guest hosting gig on 105.3 FM, filling in for Brother Stan the Union Man (Stan Swart) and talked with Scott Irvine about the advantages of opening up the FEC lines to passenger rail again.  Also, don't forget to pick up this week's Folio!  My backpage editorial discusses FEC/Amtrak, also.

Jaxson, that was a great article.  Did you forward a copy to the City Council and Mayor's Office?

Also, what type of comments did you generate from 105.3 FM?

Nothing, and I repeat nothing will happen to move Amtrak back downtown, until the new Convention Center site is chosen and work starts on it. Till then, the City needs somewhere to dump the conventions that come to town in a recession....is the thinking at 117 West Duval Street. Plus, in order to really look at sites, you have to build the new courthouse, which could lead to the demolition of the old courthouse, and pave the way for the new convention center, which to me makes best sense, on the river, next to the Hyatt, which is probably why we have not seen more push to build the new CC.


It is a huge domino effect.

I believe that there is an error in thinking that the convention center has to move for Amtrak to come back to the Union Terminal facility.  Look at New York's Penn Station.  It is under Madison Square Garden.  One time, when I was taking a connecting train to Cleveland, there was a high school graduation going on in MSG while passengers were milling around on another level.  There was some mingling of the two outside but it all went smoothly, I got to board my train, others got their diplomas...

Thanks, Lakelander.

A high school classmate heard me on the radio and told me (via facebook) that she agreed.  I didn't field any calls about Amtrak but am glad that I was able to help raise awareness of the issue again.  I talked about it with Andy Johnson on the radio last month.

That is a good idea about getting copies to City Hall.  I plan to do that this week.

The only error was placing a convention center without a HOTEL next to it. Penn Station has hotels around it, as does MSG. Have you ever tried to hail down a CAB from the Prime? They are parked all around the MSG, so think you could fall over them.

Graduations in Jacksonville occur at the Arena, not the CC.

You don't have to patronize me.  I know that graduations are at our arena.  You were implying that we cannot have a train station and another venue at the same location.

My point is that you can have a train station and a city-operated venue (like a convention center) in the same vicinity.

My major point is that we don't have to wait for a new convention center to have Amtrak at the Prime Osborn. 

Another example of multiple uses for a spot is Union Station in Washington DC.

And to make myself clear --- I don't think that the federal government is going to wait for us to get our act together and move the convention center before we are 'ready' for some meaningful movement on getting a train station moved to the Union Terminal building.
I really don't buy the agument that we cannot 'walk and chew gum at the same time' and can only afford to have a train station at the site of the Prime Osborn.  I have detrained in Washington DC for the 1997 inauguration and encountered areas that were closed off for inauguration parties.  I am not trying to say that we have inauguration parties in Jacksonville but that we can have multiple purposes for facilities. 
In actuality, the Union Terminal building could be used exclusively for the passenger station.  The remainder of the Prime Osborn could be used for conventions.
Sorry for sounding so defensive, but I bristle at suggestions that we not move forward on something we have been sitting on for so many years.

Without a doubt, the convention center needs to get out of the old terminal, ASAP.  However, it is feasible to have Amtrak there before the convention center leaves.  The current plan for the JTC shows how they would co-exist.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3380-p1070725.JPG)

Most of this is new construction, outside of the existing structure.  Another idea would be to reuse the old tunnels to access newly constructed platforms.  The lobby area used for the convention center could also be used for Amtrak until the convention center moves elsewhere.

Thanks, Lakelander.  I agree about the lobby of the convention center being used for the passenger terminal.
I completely disagree with the notion that convention goers and train passengers are somehow incompatible.  We could keep their facilities separate and allow for efficient movement of both groups.  It's not like they would end up in 'West Side Story'-style knife fights!

With that said, I do believe that the old terminal is a bad location for a convention center.  If the convention center remains there long term, its going to really screw up the layout for the Jax Transportation Center as well.  This will result in us having two ineffective destinations after pouring millions to build (JTC) and upgrade (Convention Center) them.

Mtraininjax is 100% right on the convention center relocation, it needs to go to the site of the current courthouse.  However, in the meantime, we need to get Amtrak back downtown ASAP.  If the Amtrak/FEC deal goes through, construction could start as early as April 2010.  No one will be waiting for Jax to get its act in order.

I agree - we need to move the convention center.  And, when the convention center is moved, we could have retail and dining move into the old convention center area.  It would be a nice complement to the train station.

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 06, 2009, 09:35:40 AM
The only error was placing a convention center without a HOTEL next to it. Penn Station has hotels around it, as does MSG. Have you ever tried to hail down a CAB from the Prime? They are parked all around the MSG, so think you could fall over them.

Graduations in Jacksonville occur at the Arena, not the CC.

Are you seriously comparing cabs in Jax. vs. NYC?

QuoteAre you seriously comparing cabs in Jax. vs. NYC?

I don't know, are we REALLY comparing DC or NY to Jacksonville? I surely hope not.

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 07, 2009, 08:59:52 PM

QuoteAre you seriously comparing cabs in Jax. vs. NYC?

I don't know, are we REALLY comparing DC or NY to Jacksonville? I surely hope not.

mtraininjax, sure we can compare Jax to DC or NY, you and I are probably the only ones around here that know that in the height of the Great Florida Boom, Jacksonville Terminal, was the busiest (intercity trains) railroad station in the WORLD. BTW, we ARE making progress on Atlanta - Jax, (something you once asked me about) and you may be hearing more about it within a year. Thinking the Ponce De Leon/Royal Palm route is superior to the Dixie Flyer route, what's your (or anyone else that knows what we're talking about) opinion?

OCKLAWAHA

it is one thing to compare the potential for rail in various American cities....its another thing to compare the presence of taxis in ANY OTHER American city to that of NYC!

QuoteR E S O L U T I O N
WHEREAS, the President and Congress of the United States have enacted the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) and the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008 which will make at least $13 billion dollars available for high speed rail and intercity rail passenger service in the next five years, $8 billion dollars which is available under the ARRA for “shovel ready” high speed rail projects; and

WHEREAS, in 1992, the Tampa-Orlando-Miami corridor was designated as the Florida high speed rail corridor and one of our Nation’s ten national high speed rail corridors; and

WHEREAS, the Florida high speed rail corridor would provide service to 12.7 million Floridians, serving major urban counties with an overall average population density of 1,165 persons per square mile, equating to over 35,000 people per linear mile; and

WHEREAS, Florida can design, construct and commence operation of America’s fastest high speed rail system in the Orlando-Tampa corridor for less cost per mile and provide more Americans with greater exposure to true high speed rail than any project in the Nation; and

WHEREAS, development of high speed rail in the Orlando-Tampa corridor would connect a super-region with over 6.8 million citizens, two international airports with over 51 million passengers and tourist destinations that attract over 50 million visitors annually, all of which are served primarily by a single six-lane highway; and

WHEREAS, to date, as a result of several major studies and procurement processes costing over $10 million dollars, Florida also has identified two practical alternative corridors for the development of high speed rail service between Orlando and Miami; and

WHEREAS, the Orlando-Miami segment would provide connections to an additional 6 million people, two international airports with over 55 million annual passengers and three major seaports with over 8 million annual cruise ship passengers; and

WHEREAS, establishing long-distance traditional speed inter-city rail service between Jacksonville and Miami would link an additional 1.3 million Floridians to the Florida high speed rail corridor; and

WHEREAS, the combined projects establish a cost-effective foundation for commencing and developing high speed and inter-city rail service in Florida that would provide effective service to 14 million Floridians or approximately 76% of Florida’s residents; and

WHEREAS, Florida has consistently been a donor to the federal trust fund for highway and transit dollars with Florida receiving less than 30 cents back for each transit dollar it generates; and

WHEREAS, Florida is projected to experience higher levels of unemployment with a disproportionately higher impact on Florida’s building trades and the development of the proposed corridors would create over 25,000 permanent jobs and tens of thousands of construction jobs; and

WHEREAS, the development of high speed rail and intercity rail in Florida will catalyze the development of strong regional and local rail, including Central Florida commuter rail and bus transit systems, reduce congestion and air pollution and will promote better growth management; and

WHEREAS, federal funding of Florida’s Tampa-Orlando-Miami high speed rail and Jacksonville to Miami inter-city rail applications would meet the goals and objectives of President Obama and the U.S. Congress, providing greater funding equity to Florida, create jobs and lay a new foundation for economic prosperity.

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Governor and Cabinet of the State of Florida do hereby support and urge President Obama, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and Federal Railroad Administrator Joseph C. Szabo to fully fund Florida’s applications.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Governor and Cabinet of the State of Florida do hereby urge and request that all members of Florida’s Congressional delegation support Florida’s high speed and inter-city rail applications.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Governor and Cabinet of the State of Florida does hereby urge and request that the Florida Legislature enthusiastically support Florida’s high speed and inter-city rail applications and take all reasonable and prudent steps to maximize Florida’s ability to qualify for these federal funds.

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF the Governor and Cabinet of the State of Florida have hereunto subscribed their names and have caused the Official Seal of the State of Florida to be hereunto affixed in the City of Tallahassee on this 15th day of September, 2009.

http://www.myfloridacfo.com/PressOffice/Newsletter/2009/091809/September_1809Alt2.htm

John Mica has yet to endorse HSR for Florida. He is not among this list:

QuoteFederal Officials
U.S. Senator Bill Nelson
U.S. Senator Mel Martinez
U.S. Congresswoman Corrine Brown D-Jacksonville, Orlando
U.S. Congresswoman Kathy Castor D-Tampa
U.S. Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart, R-Miami
U.S. Congressman Mario Diaz-Balart, R-Miami
U.S. Congressman Alcee Hartings, D-Ft. Lauderdale and Miami
U.S. Congressman Alan Grayson, D-Orlando
U.S. Congressman Suzanne Kosmas, D-Orlando
U.S. Congresman Kendrick Meek, D-Miami
U.S. Congressman Adam Putnam, R-Lakeland
U.S. Congressman Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Ft. Lauderdale
U.S. Congressman Robert Wexler, D-Palm Beach

http://www.fastrailconnectus.com/cms.php?action=Endorsements

Unless I'm overlooking someone, other than Brown, no one else from Jacksonville as well.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2009, 11:43:19 PM
Unless I'm overlooking someone, other than Brown, no one else from Jacksonville as well.

No one else from Jacksonville has ever claimed they are HSR supporters, ............in fact John Mica routinely gets praised for being a high speed rail supporter. Sigh,........I guess he just wants to take the Acela from Amtrak.

The bill also mentioned the Amtrak/FEC corridor.  Is it okay that no support from Jax (outside Brown)was given?  Even Plant City endorsed the thing and HSR will blow right through their community.

Hopefully this current High Speed Rail Plan goes down in flames, and something sensible rises in its place. So I really don't see where a lot of Jax support for HSR Florida would help us. I think the FEC train is going to roll with or without the HSR disaster. A some distant date we may be looking at supporting HSR to Atlanta, and DC, even New Orleans, but for now, we are not on the map.

OCKLAWAHA

I mentioned the Amtrak/FEC project because it appears that their fates have been tied together.  Personally, for political reasons I think we'll get the money necessary to build both projects.  However, once Obama leaves office, future rail projects will become more cloudy (political climates run in cycles).  In other words, if JTA wants commuter rail and streetcars, its time to "doing something" or get off the pot.

Gentlemen........I agree! I think we have a better shot at getting service moving from Jacksonville to Miami, both ways, than we do with that fiasco trying to come to life in Orlando! Mouseville wants a train then let them build it but for my dollar, if I had a say in it, service to Miami has a better profit potential and that would grow even more if the connection was New York to Miami. That would take minimal funding and most of the equipment is already on line and just a scheduling task and pooooof...........train is hard at work! Yes I know simplistic but start small, or simple, and grow from there!

Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on July 23, 2009, 05:10:16 AM
Jacksonville to Miami Passenger Rail Returning?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2388-dsc_0034.JPG)

After receiving significant support from local governments along the East Coast, FDOT recently submitted a request to use federal dollars to bring high-speed passenger rail to the FEC corridor.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jacksonville-to-miami-passenger-rail-returning (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jacksonville-to-miami-passenger-rail-returning)

Looking at that image, a novice might actually believe that Jacksonville is built around rail, and perfectly situated to handle multi-faceted rail transport.

So have the fates of the Central Florida $30 a pop one way HSR from Tampa to Orlando International and the Amtrak State long serving many communities been tied together by this application?

Quote from: JeffreyS on September 29, 2009, 12:31:28 PM
So have the fates of the Central Florida $30 a pop one way HSR from Tampa to Orlando International and the Amtrak State long serving many communities been tied together by this application?

It certainly would seem that way.

As to Lakelander's question about local congressmen support, unfortunately that would be difficult to get based in large measure on their respective political affiliations. It is sad to see that of the 15 Republican Congressmen for Florida, onlt three have signed up in support of this combined HSR, and Jax-Miami Amtrak proclamation.

In the case of John Mica it's a blatant two-faced position as he regularly gets praised as a HSR supporter in the press,.........but when push comes to shove, he is MIA for Florida.

Stephen, I understand where you're coming from,.............but why aren't we holding our elected officials accountable?

Can anyone explain why this is:

QuoteIn the case of John Mica it's a blatant two-faced position as he regularly gets praised as a HSR supporter in the press,.........but when push comes to shove, he is MIA for Florida

Does someone deserve a certain reputation, and then not live up to it?

Wouldn't it be much better if we can count on those who "represent" us, to actually help in the public transportation efforts, expecially if they proclaim to be a train and HSR supporter?

BTW, Stephen, you mean to say you don't know what I am for after posting around 700 comments on metrojacksonville boards? Wow, I wonder how many words are needed to have clear position!

It's clear would like to unseat Mica. What is less clear is what you would do.

We do know that you support the HSR proposal.

Yeah, I know John Mica, Faye, and more then agree with Stephen that this is not only old, it's worn out. We get E:Mails telling us so and so is no longer reading these posts because of the constant single minded theme.

I am one of the biggest supporters of High Speed Rail in the country, but not STUPID HIGH SPEED RAIL, just so our state can line it's pockets with Federal dollars which the government took from the people in the first place. I agree we should hold our public servants accountable, the same goes for candidate's for public office. Seems like whatever argument we put forth to explain why the current plan is a train wreck waiting to happen, you go negative and put up a wall. Commuter Rail? the same thing. If Mica, supports High Speed Rail as most on these pages do, then he would be VERY right in backing away from this Central Florida disaster. Just posting endless lists of links doesn't tell us your position either. It's not that we don't want to hear from you, I think it's more that you don't really want to hear from us. Of the 4 owners adding myself as an editor, the 5 of us work in: Major Railroad, Railroad Consulting, Urban Planning, IT systems, and Business Management. I think we are as qualified as anyone you cite to express grave doubts about this plan.

Constructive discourse? Have you gone through our questions and done the homework to give us point by point responses that don't include either what the HSR groups are saying, or more Mica?

OCKLAWAHA

...and this just in from The Transport Politic Blog:  

QuoteA high-speed rail system in the Sunshine State would be quite appropriate, as the peninsula’s cities are large, they’re well within commuting distance, and they suffer from significant road congestion. A train network would provide a very useful alternative to the sprawled-out car-only culture that pervades much of the state’s current development. The system could also be an exciting proving ground for the use of Bombardier’s JetTrain, which allows 150 mph top speeds without the use of electric catenary â€" though it sacrifices significantly in terms of environmental effects.

But the planned corridor for the first phase of the project â€" which the state has already spent more than $1 billion acquiring and planning â€" is problematic enough to raise concerns about whether investment in this system is an appropriate use of Washington’s money. The western terminus of the route is acceptable â€" a station would be constructed in downtown Tampa. The route would then, less suitably, follow I-4 across the state, until it reaches the southern suburbs of Orland0, where the corridor will diverge from I-4 onto the Beachline Expressway to reach the Orlando Airport. Along the way, the line will serve the northern suburbs of Lakeland, the Disney World Complex, and the Orlando/Orange County Convention Center, near Sea World.

Not getting stations: downtown Orlando and Lakeland. That’s a huge loss, because it eliminates the possibility of using high-speed rail as an effective development mechanism that can spur dense, mixed-use building. Stations near Disney World and the Convention Center are located in areas that are already mostly built up, but in a sprawled-out fashion. On the other hand, both Orlando and Lakeland have rejuvenating downtowns that are walkable and would grow up if high-speed rail stopped in them. Orlando is investing in a major new arena and a performing arts center, and a commuter rail system linking downtown with the northern and southern suburbs is in development. In other words, these are places worth further investment...

As we've been saying, now the cat is out of the pullman and chances are everyone is in the know on Mickeys HSR. Bad idea, Bad idea, Bad idea!  

OCKLAWAHA

I agree Ock! If Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Disney just spent something like 2.5 Billion to acquire the Marvel Empire so they are not broke by any means. Tax dollars to supply Mouseville with a people mover system is just flat wrong and the rest of the state will suffer for sure!

Quote from: stephendare on September 29, 2009, 02:09:18 PM

I personally am trying to ascertain if you care about these issues, or if you are simply backing what has lots of popularity down there.

Well, I happen to care about these issues. Given my own background it's easy to acertain authenticity. Heck I have a sister living in Europe ( in her forties) who has NEVER yet owned a car.

My personal experience says enough. I'm not beholden to special interests, and have been a citizen advocate on healthcare long enough to have made my marks for the people's interests.

Now if you are looking for someone who is a corporatist, which you can find in both parties, you are not going to find that in me. That doesn't mean I am against corporations,.........my dad worked for Philips Electronics all of his life, and they paid for my master's degree through their scholarship program. I too have worked for major corporations myself: Nestle, Kaiser Parmanente and Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

I have had the fortune to live in the far east and the middle east, as well as being born in Colombia, because my dad was stationed overseas while he worked for a multi-national company.

Though government can help facilitate things for corporations ( infrastructure is a prime example), it should also be there to protect the people from corporate excesses. It's the corporate excesses to caused our recent economic collapse.

Mostly I think government should put policies in place that help small businesses, as they supply 70% of our employment.

On HSR, I think downtown to downtown connections are preferable, that is how it's done in Europe, although there are train stations at every airport as well. Florida is different from other places in the US, because of its high tourist component.

Heck, we all know that our economy has been based on agriculture, tourism and construction. Not much diversification to speak of compared to others areas in the US.

We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

The HSR I took in Europe as I visited my parents this past Jan. didn't stop at every little town along the way either. If I wanted that I could have taken the "stop" train.

The distance was the same as Tampa-Orlando,.........Amsterdam-Eindhoven, and they only had one stop at Utrecht.

Of coures you all have debated all these issues ad nauseum on these boards, and there is definitely a lot of expertise here, but I too can have serious opinions that may differ from some of the group think that can occur when people hang out a lot with each other. I always back up my stuff with sourcing as you know. I enjoy researching and learning.

The one congressman did not show up on the list backing HSR in Florida, that is a pure fact, indisputable.

So in this case I don't think there is a difficulty going through the evaluation as laid out by you:

QuoteWith so much criticism of mica its more difficult, because I have to stop and decide whether your point is
a. Accurate
b. sourced,
c. a reflection of how you feel
d. just an attempt to raise the negatives on mica.

I am only testing the waters in terms of running again. Knowing that incumbents win 95% of the time, makes elections a real farce. The only way to level the playing field is for publicly financed campaigns.

It's no wonder nothing ever gets done, incumbents have no reason to to listen to the needs of the people. We will forever be stuck with career politicians unless we stop making excuses for them, and vote them out.

Ock...your post is misleading....the state has NOT spent $1 billion so far on Phase 1 of HSR.

Sure, I-4 was widened, which was needed regardless...there were two options:

1. Build the new lanes (from 4 to 6) in the old median, leaving no room for expansion in the future
2. Widen the road fully now and replace the bridges

which one seems like good planning to you?

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 29, 2009, 03:34:41 PM
We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

Faye, I thought my point was pretty clear.  I'm not advocating ignoring or favoring either market, which the current plan does.  I'm pushing the idea of a plan that can attract and cater to tourist and residents and which is significantly cheaper and easier to establish.

I don't know when the last time you've visited these towns between Orlando and Tampa lately, but they aren't small little burgs anymore.  Lakeland's downtown is more vibrant than Jacksonville's and traffic on South and North Florida Avenue will remind you of Blanding or Atlantic Blvds.  Brandon isn't incorporated, but if it were it's population would rival some of our region's counties.  Plant City may only have around 35,000 residents, but its boundaries touch Lakeland's, which has nearly 100,000 in city limits and a ton more in its suburbs.  The same goes for Winter Haven, Haines City, Kissimmee and a host of unincorporated areas.  These are population centers that add local trips to and help clog I-4, I-75, SR 60 and other highways.  Spending $2.5 billion on a rail system and ignoring them is simply silly.

This is why I suggested a system that allows for local and express train service on the same tracks.  You hit both markets and it can be a ton cheaper by working with Amtrak, as opposed to trying to do something off the wall on our on.  As for the notion of HSR, who cares.  This is a corridor that screams commuter rail, imo.  If it takes 30 minutes longer (end point to end point) to serve a larger population base on a corridor in the center of these cities, so what.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 29, 2009, 03:45:48 PM
Ock...your post is misleading....the state has NOT spent $1 billion so far on Phase 1 of HSR.

Sure, I-4 was widened, which was needed regardless...there were two options:

1. Build the new lanes (from 4 to 6) in the old median, leaving no room for expansion in the future
2. Widen the road fully now and replace the bridges

which one seems like good planning to you?

I don't think so tusfu1, but FIRST, it wasn't I who said that, it was The Transport Politic, and was identified as such. As Lakelander has pointed out the true cost of this system would also have to include some of the right-of-way purchase, planning and construction on I-4. Plus this thing has been "next years news" since Florida Governor Bob Graham had his photo taken in the cab of a bullet train. With so many studies, FDOT, dedicated consultants, etc. it might be well over that mark, until then, I'll go with their figure.  

OCKLAWAHA

Lakelander, with tilt train technology that 79 mph track could be much faster. Dedicate a portion of the funds to any tight spots where track realignment would be cheap and easy. Run high speed expresses as well as local Surfliner type commuter trains. That train would blow through every downtown from Jacksonville to St. Petersburg.

BTW, Faye, they are NOT planning electric (and may never build it) they are looking at Bombardier's 2002 trial of a GE Jet train. Is actually like a jet engine in that it is in the form of a gas turbine, however it is designed to provide horsepower in lieu of thrust. It's said to fairly quiet but not nice to the environment.  

OCKLAWAHA

Gas Turbine is notorious for spent gases.........even if in a bypass mode as some aircraft engines are for noise suppression and additional thrust..........but you are aware of that are you not Ok? Don't care what they use, Mouseville can build their own rail system! We need a statewide rail system, just not a stand alone system that caters to 73 mile stretch.......along with a stop programed at Disney......forget Jacksonville!

Quote from: thelakelander on September 29, 2009, 06:06:49 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on September 29, 2009, 03:34:41 PM
We can either ignore the tourist component or we can capitalize on it. As an economist, I prefer to capitalize on it. And the notion of stopping at every little town along the Tampa-Orlando route as lakelander has suggested is ludicrous, as it completely negates the HSR notion.

Faye, I thought my point was pretty clear.  I'm not advocating ignoring or favoring either market, which the current plan does. 

Well, the current plan does not favor tourists:

QuoteIn general, the high speed rail ridership split between business and recreational/tourist trips is about 50/50.

Per Nazih K. Haddad, P.E.

Manager, Passenger Rail Development

Florida Department of Transportation

I lived, worked and designed projects in various Central Florida cities for a combined 21 years.  I'm pretty familiar with the local commuting patterns and this system does not set up well to serve them.  You can't effectively serve a sprawling region with multiple cities (that contribute to I-4's congestion problems) with a line with five stations spaced out over a 90 mile stretch.  Charging $20-$30 for a one-way ticket only creates more skepticism.  There's not much a cut and pasted quote from Nazih Haddad is going to do to change my mind.

How true Lake, I've been in and out of Orlando since 1975, and if I had to pull a number from the sky I'd say it's more like 10%-90% locals to tourists. On top of all of that, except for a few airlines employees "living in Disney", the whole thing is pointed the wrong way. This is Mickeys Marvelous Railroad adventure, pure and simple.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 30, 2009, 04:51:08 PM
How true Lake, I've been in and out of Orlando since 1975, and if I had to pull a number from the sky I'd say it's more like 10%-90% locals to tourists. On top of all of that, except for a few airlines employees "living in Disney", the whole thing is pointed the wrong way. This is Mickeys Marvelous Railroad adventure, pure and simple.  

OCKLAWAHA

And all this time I've been waitng for Mr Toad's Wild Ride to return to the Magic Kingdom.

Turns out I've just been waiting on the wrong ride.

It disappoints me at MJ to realize that Faye, a very likable, and educated, would-be public servant, can't see this for what it is. That someone with her influence can't think beyond the $2 Billion, and see how this plan could backfire so big as to be High Speed Rails equivalent of The Hindenburg.

Faye, I'm not saying don't support it at all, none of us are, in fact with few exceptions we all support the concept. The entire Northeast Corridor is built on the regular railroad mainlines, ours should be too.

OCKLAWAHA

Lakelander and Ock, I have plenty of street cred on Central Florida myself.

Lived in Kissimmee for 6 years,............Poinciana, which covers Osceola and Polk counties. and is near Haines City.

I agree that we also need a commuter train to stop at all these towns.

I used to drive from Poinciana into Tampa every single day, and often had to drive into Orlando as well. I very much regretted having bought a house there, because of how far everything was from where we lived.
Now I live off SR 13/San Jose Blvd, and can walk and bike to wherever I need to go. That is how development should take place. Dense development that makes public transportation feasible. Go LRT for San Jose!!!!

( and LRT on John Young Parkway from Kissimmee to Orlando too ;) )

The fact remains that we have a terrific HSR plan, that is ready to go. And I am happy Florida will be getting some of its tax payer transportation dollars back that have in the past gone to other states.

Ock...........I concur! I agree with the concept but not the execution nor the location planned! The proposed cost 2.5 Billion is abit of an overreach and like most projects is inflated......total cost probably will be over 3 but who's counting (I am!) I still say if Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Florida needs an interstate people moving system with options for expansion into transportation corridors. Jacksonville has three directions of expansion while Orlando system has 2 so which is the best test area?

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 30, 2009, 09:12:08 PM
Ock...........I concur! I agree with the concept but not the execution nor the location planned! The proposed cost 2.5 Billion is abit of an overreach and like most projects is inflated......total cost probably will be over 3 but who's counting (I am!) I still say if Mouseville wants a railroad then let them build it! Florida needs an interstate people moving system with options for expansion into transportation corridors. Jacksonville has three directions of expansion while Orlando system has 2 so which is the best test area?

Well yeah, let's start from scratch with Jax as the focal point........when our city government has never expressed much interest. That sure make sense. I do however agree that jax is the gateway to Florida and should capitalize on it.

BTW thanks for calling Mica about voting YES on fully funding Amtrak, by signing onto Corrine Brown's Dear Colleague letter.

Let's see what he does.

Not a problem Faye...........lets see if he joins in or excludes himself! If he excludes then there is ammo for you to take a shot at him! I am more concerned about true HSR for Florida and our need for a real people moving system within the state and options to expand outside! It is bad enough that no one in the current Administration can not see beyond their noses but Jacksonville needs intercity LR/trolley system and soon. The aspect of increasing bus's is kind of narrow (thanks JTA) when there are other ways to move people around at a cheaper cost not only to the taxpayers but the environment and air quality! I would like more for my tax dollars and this is a no brainer to me!

I am new to this forum and have only lived in Jax area for three years, but I have worked for large corporations that put together conventions for various reasons.  This brings me to my point, the location of the railroad station downtown together with the convention center would be fine if and only if there were very close Hotels and supporting transportation in the downtown area as well as something to do while participants are there. 

Having participated in a couple of committees to put conventions in other cities we looked for conveniences for our members and our guest speakers.  For this reason, unless we are willing to invite a six flags, or put monies into our downtown to spruce it up and give a night life it barely has now (baring the Landing), plus be willing to stop rolling up the sidewalks at 6:00 p.m. and be closed on Sundays (which I actually like as a resident but would not as a convention coordinator), then we need to be willing to create fast corridors to both Mickey's house and Miami combining adult fun (Miami) and family friendly (Mickey's house). 
As a resident, I would prefer for the mess and mayhem to be concentrated downtown than spread all over.  On the other hand I am realistic.  I lived in a city where they could not decide which way to go and every three years it changed directions leaving with without a real committed direction.  If we are saying, as I believe we are (reading above and other publications), that we want Jax to be put back on the map as a location that attracts business, starting with conventions is not a bad way which means we need to tighten our belts and hand on.  The HSR makes more logical sense in the location where it once was, there just needs to be supporting surroundings which are not there now.  The CC and current location of the rails is in the "dead" area, or at least that is what it looks like to a new comer.  If I were to tour the facility for a convention, Jax could dine me and wine me, but bottom line, I would walk on the outside of the convention center and see there is a "scary" looking area with closed and run down buildings, a bridge to an industrial, mostly ghostly area, and "nothing to do". 
Because I appreciate old cities, I would be wondering why there aren't museums about its past, what is the history of the closed and abandoned buildings, and why hasn't it (Jax) taken advantage of its past as a future attraction? But I would also realize that I would be in a position to bring in all the entertainment for the convention attendees, which is not a viable position to be in with this economy.  In short, I may revisit Jax as a future convention location, but I would have to pass for now. 

Therefore, make a commitment to HSR, but ensure there is a commitment to add Hotels and entertainment immediately surrounding the CC if that is where the HSR will be located.

As for the a multi-stop HSR to Orlando/Tampa, scratch that.  Make it one stop, then provide other ground or even other train transportation from the most logical single stop location. 

I completely agree with Foltz on the need for LR/Trolley which could solve the transpo from the CC and train station to other areas in the vicinity as well and resolve at least one of the problems of the currently planned location. 

Cmed911, the JTA wants the convention center to eventually be moved out of the current location.  Most of the posters here would favor building a new one where the current county courthouse is on Bay St. (near the Hyatt) after the new courthouse if completed.  I personally don't think that COJ should be in the convention business.

I don't know of a major american business center that is not in the convention business.  I think getting out of it will only help solidify us as a backwater "Mudville".  Instead of getting out of it, we're better off building a new public/private center that takes advantage of downtown's existing assets.

If the private partner owns the land and pays ad valorem taxes ... maybe.

I need convincing guys.  Can any of you name a top American metro area or city without a convention facility?  While not a money maker, neither are libraries, mass transit, public schools and roads.  However, like the others, there are direct positive economic impacts of having them.  A new center at the current courthouse site would be a major economic benefit for our existing Northbank investments (Landing, Hyatt, Bay Street district, etc.) because the visitors who attend them, spend money and generate additional foot traffic (assuming there's something nearby to grab their attention).  It would also be a boost to our image as a place for business.

Do studies show that the positive economic impact is greater than the cost to taxpayers?

Here's an old article regarding some Jacksonville studies from the past.  The article includes statements from a guy who doesn't agree but doesn't offer much detail on what he believes the actual impact would be.

QuoteThe most recent study, conducted by The Florida Center for Public Policy and Leadership at the University of North Florida, examined two sets of data: The first set was 131 meeting planners polled by the Florida Center. The second set was the data from several focus groups conducted for the 2001 study by the consultant Strategic Advisory Group.

Using its own data, the Florida Center found that building a larger center downtown could generate an economic impact of up to $1.1 billion over 10 years. Expanding the existing center and building a convention center hotel would generate a slightly lower return at $1 billion. The report includes both direct and secondary effects of spending in its calculations.

Using the SAG data, the Florida Center found that building a larger center downtown could generate an economic impact as high as $2.4 billion over 10 years. Adding onto the Prime Osborn and building an adjacent hotel would create $1.3 billion in new spending.

Keeping the Prime Osborn as is would generate only $532 million in spending over 10 years.

QuoteThe supply of convention center exhibit space grew slowly during the late 1990s, but increased to 7.1 percent growth last year and is projected to hit 6.6 percent growth this year, according to industry magazine Tradeshow Week.

But at the same time, convention show attendance has dropped the last few years, falling 4.9 percent last year. It is expected to fall 0.7 percent this year.

That makes the prospect of a city like Jacksonville adding space now seem to be "absolutely whacky," said Heywood Sandersa professor at the University of Texas at San Antonio and an expert on the economic impact of convention centers.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092403/bus_13611380.shtml

In any event, I do agree that the convention center needs to be booted out of the Prime Osborn.  Doing so will allow the terminal to become a hub for Amtrak service as well as local transit options.

http://www.youtube.com/v/AvM2RWwZJyU&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
...and you thought we NEEDED high speed rail?

Florida High Speed Rail if Ocklawaha was driving:

Jacksonville - Orange Park - Palatka - Deland - from Sanford  (OPTION ONE) Intl Airport Station the railroad would shift Southeast crossing the Econ River near Chulouta and hence Southward through OIA. (the previous route segment is based on the FDOT plan to land trains at the Orlando Airport one highly suspect in my book)  Beyond OIA, the railroad would curve slightly west passing through Winter Haven, Lake Wales, Frostproof and Sebring before curving back Southeast to West Palm, Ft. Lauderdale and Miami.  (OPTION TWO) Enters most towns on conventional track - operates between cities on exclusive high speed target 130-180 mph).

Jacksonville Terminal- Miami via the FLORIDA EAST Coast Ry, conventional Amtrak trains with very high frequency services, target 90-120 mph average. Full service trains interspersed with coach - lounge trains. Resetting the signals for the entire railroad, addition of long passing sidings, overpasses and proper signals

Jacksonville - Orange Park - Palatka - Deland - Sanford -  Orlando - Auburndale - Lakeland = TAMPA UNION STATION.  Features hourly target headways, otherwise same as JAX-MIAMI route.l

TAMPA UNION STATION - Miami, Tampa - via Tampa Cutoff, a new high speed track from Tampa to the vicinity of Sebring, hence via the Miami route.  130-180 mph target speeds.   

Jacksonville - Starke - Gainesville - Ocala - Leesburg - Tavares - Apopka - Orlando DOWNTOWN AMTRAK STATION. 90 mph target speeds with standard Amtrak Equipment.

Lakeland - Arcadia - Ft. Myers - Naples.    75 mph connecting train to Jax-Tampa Trains. 

Tampa - Sarasota - Venice .  70 mph target speed, connecting train to Jax - Tampa Trains.

Jacksonville - Baldwin - Lake City - Tallahassee - Pensacola.  Target speeds up to 180 mph, average 90 mph. Higher frequency JAX-TALLY, but no less then 5 trains each way daily JAX-Pensacola.


Maybe I should map it out, but beats the hell out of Tampa-Miami via ORLANDO, or ORLANDO INTL AIRPORT where Orlando Amtrak would do the job. Also makes max use of existing Amtrak equipment, with dedicated new trains where warranted.

ANY THOUGHTS?

OCKLAWAHA                                                      

Here's another study on a potential new convention center...done by JCCI in 2007

http://www.jcci.org/jcciwebsite/pages/studiesbytopic.html

78,000 Sq.Ft. at the POCC, good god, that is pitiful. After visiting the 2.5 Million Sq. Ft. Kentucky Exposition center in 2009. I was amazed on how pitiful our current convention center was. I am all for reconverting the Prime back to the great Jacksonville Terminal it used to be.

JCCI's idea of building an new CC next to the 966-bed Hyatt is an good idea, and most of the infrastructure is already there. Plus its on the river, which is another key component our city is known for. Mobiles convention center should be a example of what Jacksonville needs in an CC. It has two 50,000 Sq.Ft. Exhibit Halls, and two 15,000 Sq. Ft. Ballrooms. This is about the size that would support Jacksonville for a while. But the JCCI does point out that eventually Jacksonville will need an 500,000 sq. ft. CC. However it cant be done adjacent to Hyatt, due to the lack of space.

Lake, I agree with you. I do not see how we CANT be in the convention business. Nobody is saying we need to compete with Orlando or Atlanta, but for crying outloud we should be able to compete against Mobile or Jackson, MS

Old Courthouse conversion, anyone?

I dont think converting the old courthouse to a CC would work. Depends if it will stay up with a majority of the walls knocked out. Leveling the courthouse and building an extension off the Hyatt will probably be the best bet. Since the Hyatt already has ballrooms, they will just need to add exhibit halls.

If we use the old courthouse site you would need to knock it down and start from the ground.

(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad214/mattius92/CCPlan_2.jpg)

Now look at that picture and you might be able to visualize what a convention center would like there. I say level the current courthouse once the new one is built, build the CC on that ugly, hot surface lot, thats right on the river and the river walk. And build a nice parking facility behind it, on the actual road.

The JCCI study alluding to an ultimate 500,000 sf convention center with a single 200,000 sf exhibition hall is exactly why I think the best sites (I agree it should be along the river) to consider are the shipyards, or as a backup, the JEA site.  Both are far bigger sites.  Even a portion of this size would appear to me to overwhelm the courtyard site.  In 10 years we will be right back where we are now, moaning and groaning about the long term visioning and adequacy of today's decision.

The Shipyards site has the advantage of dovetailing with the existing large scale parking of the stadium, arena, and baseball grounds as well as using the arena as a "connecting" venue for large meetings, conventioneer entertainment or large scale presentations,  or exhibits on its floor.  It's also on the extended riverwalk, near the metro park marina (in addition to any built at the shipyards), not too far from the Hyatt, and would connect very well with an intermodal center at the Prime Osborne site, the Hyatt, the T-U auditorium, other amenities of the Downtown, and the stadium/arena areas with a Bay Street trolley.  Development on the balance of the Shipyards could include hotels.  This would create a continuous strip of riverfront development from the stadium to the Fuller Warren Bridge which could be leveraged into landward opportunities.

Good points stjr but remember connecting to the Hyatt, Hilton or Omni is probably the biggest need. Any of those sites would be fine by me.  We should probably plan to build it and then try to use site location as an incentive to get private money. ( as in whose Hotel gets to be closest)

Quote from: stjr on May 06, 2010, 12:46:02 AM
The JCCI study alluding to an ultimate 500,000 sf convention center with a single 200,000 sf exhibition hall is exactly why I think the best sites (I agree it should be along the river) to consider are the shipyards, or as a backup, the JEA site.  Both are far bigger sites.  Even a portion of this size would appear to me to overwhelm the courtyard site.  In 10 years we will be right back where we are now, moaning and groaning about the long term visioning and adequacy of today's decision.

You can accommodate this need at the courthouse/courthouse annex sites.  Also, don't forget a complex at that site would also have the Hyatt (attached to it--this is important), its meeting rooms, restaurants and ballroom space to serve as a part of the need.

QuoteThe JCCI study alluding to an ultimate 500,000 sf convention center with a single 200,000 sf exhibition hall is exactly why I think the best sites (I agree it should be along the river) to consider are the shipyards, or as a backup, the JEA site.  Both are far bigger sites.  Even a portion of this size would appear to me to overwhelm the courtyard site.  In 10 years we will be right back where we are now, moaning and groaning about the long term visioning and adequacy of today's decision.

I think the issue with putting it on the Shipyard's site is that we will have then used up the last remaining vacant riverfront property.  My opinion is that the Shipyard's is better suited for private development such as what was originally planned before the whole Shipyards fiasco took place.  Plus, putting it on the old courthouse site will put convention attendees in better proximity to the downtown core.

The Skyway running into (continuing to the stadium) a new convention center adjacent to the Hyatt,  would seem like a means of significantly bolstering it's ridership while honoring our commitment to it.

As far as sites go, this seems like the best available location. Businesses would likely flourish with the combination of ease of mobility coupled with destinations.

People are less attracted to an empty restaurant. Downtown will benefit from pockets of flourishing businesses. What better way to attract potential suitors to open shop in DT Jax than to show them a bustling and developing environment, with the opportunity to "get in" on the ground floor?

Bay St corridor bustling + Convention Center (Hyatt already in place) + user friendly (attractive and clean) transit + restaurants = a very inviting environ.

Regarding the Shipyards (and the JEA site), you'll also have no adjacent hotel or entertainment/dining in immediate proximity.  So your waterfront convention center will still lose out when it has to go up against its peers in every other city that provides the necessary space requirement with the additional complementing uses.  To solve this, we can incentivize these things to come into a market that can't support them on its own.  However, doing this will cost taxpayers millions more and hurt the investments we have already made in DT (ex. Hyatt, Bay Street District, Landing, etc.).

If you look at that blue line above the current courthouse in that picture I posted, that is an futuristic extension of the skyway, which was actually planned to run down water and bay street. I think Stjrs idea of creating some sort of mass transit along bay street would really boost smart building along the St. Johns. Either being the Skyway, Trolleys or heck even routine bus routes. That will really help that development.

Also I think the current courthouse position could work, but not any larger then 500,000 Sq Ft. while the old JEA site has HUGE capabilities (size and expansion wise), but it doesn't have a Hyatt next to it. (I believe it does have some hotel, but not as big as the Hyatt) Also the Hyatt already has ballrooms and meeting rooms making it even more perfect.

Stjr did you read the part in the JCCI report saying that even if they did build an 500,000 Sq ft CC, it wouldn't be used unless there is a really good infrastructure around it. That means at least 2,750 Hotel rooms within a few mile radius of the CC. And an adjacent hotel would be key, for attracting any big time conventions.

http://staugustine.com/opinions/2010-05-08/times-hand-support-passenger-rail-st-augustine

St. Augustine Record
Time's at hand to support passenger rail for St. Augustine
May 8, 2010

As hope for expanded passenger rail service builds along Florida's East Coast, the nation celebrates National Train Day today. It's an official celebration created by Amtrak to mark the 141st anniversary of transcontinental service in the United States.

Who doesn't love watching trains go by unless they are caught in a traffic tie up at a railroad crossing? Trains whisk along tracks through woodlands and fields and slow to a crawl on Main Street USA. They cross narrow bridges designed only for their tracks and slowly move through tunnels in mountains in parts north of us.

Tuesday night we are having our own version of Train Day at St. Augustine's City Hall. The Florida Department of Transportation, in conjunction with the Federal Railroad Administration, will hold a workshop on returning passenger service over the Florida East Coast Railway from Jacksonville to West Palm Beach and then to Miami via CSX rails.

It's fitting that St. Augustine is in this proposed rail system. FEC was started in St. Augustine more than a century ago by Henry M. Flagler. His railroad opened Florida's east coast to development and tourism in the late 19th century.

This 21st century grass roots effort began in Melbourne several years ago among coastal regional planning councils. It is in the hunt for $260-million-plus in federal stimulus dollars to boost business and tourism opportunities.   Daytona Beach, Melbourne, Cocoa, Titusville, Vero Beach, Fort Pierce and Stuart are the other seven proposed stops.

Imagine the possibilities not just inside Florida   but to parts elsewhere; New York, Washington, Chicago, Los Angeles.

Modern railway passenger service ended here more than 40 years ago but this proposed service could bring it back by 2012. That's a year ahead of the start of St. Augustine's two-year 450th birthday celebration.   The draw of the 450th, coupled with passenger rail service right to St. Augustine, would be a huge boost to the $700 million tourists already spend here.

We welcome state and federal officials for this workshop. It behooves our community to turn out to hear about our future in passenger rail service. Our community is not shy when it comes to speaking up about how special projects shape our future. Be a voice for our future Tuesday night. All aboard.

If you go:

The workshop is at City Hall, 75 King St., in the Alcazar Room where the St. Augustine City Commission meets. Project information will be available at 6 p.m. A formal presentation will begin at 6:30 p.m., followed by an informal question-and-answer session.

Written comments will be accepted up to 10 days after the workshop.   Comments should be addressed to Gregor Senger, FDOT Project Manager, via e-mail at gregor.senger@dot.state.fl.us, by mail to him at FDOT District Four, 3400 West Commercial Boulevard, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33309, or by phone, toll-free, (866) 336-8435, ext. 4141. 



On the Web:

www2.dot.state.fl.us/publicsyndication/publicmeetings.aspx

www.nationaltrainday.com

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 05, 2010, 03:23:06 PM
If we use the old courthouse site you would need to knock it down and start from the ground.

This works, and Jax is REALLY good at knocking buildings down, so this works out perfectly!

LOL @ St. Auggie.  But, nobody has perfected the art of replacing buildings with weed-choked vacant lots like Jacksonville has!

I am hopeful that the Amtrak/FEC route is open by 2012.  This is an idea whose time has come!

They better not turn the courthouse site into a vacant lot.

Too bad I will be out of Jacksonville by 2012, I will still be happy knowing that they reinstated the Passenger rail service on the FEC.

QuoteThey better not turn the courthouse site into a vacant lot.

No one is in a rush to tear it down, it costs a good couple million to tear it down, something the city does not have right now. At some point it will become part of the Hyatt and convention center, but they also need to clear City Hall and turn the whole 4 blocks into the convention area. Tearing down the old City Hall will cost $$$ as well. I think we will not see anything torn down until at least 2016-2019, give the city time to replenish the coffers.

That long for a new convention center that we should of built years ago. Hell, I am starting to loose hope in this city.

QuoteThat long for a new convention center that we should of built years ago. Hell, I am starting to loose hope in this city.

Maybe you don't read or see the news, the mayor just asked the employees of the city to take another 5% pay decrease, to get in line with the private sector. We still have 12% unemployment and real unemployment with those who have given up, and those taking temp jobs of closer to over 20%.

Its tough to spend millions to tear something down that can wait a few years, and with the whole city budget the way it is now, moving the judges, prosecutors, clerk, will cost the city millions more. Now is not the time to tear down city-owned buildings.

Save millions in demo costs.  The Shipyards is already a "grass covered lot"!   Shovel ready.  How 'bout some stimulus dollars?  ;D

We could use the Shipyards, but JTA would need to get Streetcars on Bay Street. Also it does have the room for a 500,000 Sq. Ft. CC. If they are smart they might try to get someone to build a hotel next to it too.

How much you think a 500,000 Sq. Ft. CC would cost? $350 Million??

625 dollars per square foot?  Seems high. I don't know about such structures, however. It seems 350 to 400 dollars psqft would get it done.

Since its really just open space, it shouldn't cost that much I guess. The most expensive part will probably be engineering the roof so it will support itself over large unsupported spaces.