Metro Jacksonville

JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453365348_QuTFX-M.jpg)

No one knows when or if it will ever happen, but the land has been set aside for a possible extension of the Skyway to serve Blue Cross Blue Shield, Fidelity, and Everbank.


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jta-skyway-riverside-extension

I see there's a "San Marco Trolley 2009?" Proposal in there. Is there any new development on that?

They really need to do this part of the skyway extension, it would boost ridership immensely.

This leg would be smart, taking it all the way down to 5 points (perhaps under/alongside the  I-95 right of way), and to the Stadium/Metro Park would be even smarter if they really want to boost ridership.

2 stations 1/2 mile apart?  What the hell kind of planning is that?!  1/2 mile = 2,640 feet or less than 900 yards.  And does it actually connect to the rest of the functioning skyway or is this just another way to bring people from one place they don't want to go to another place they don't want to go?
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the skyway, mass transit, rail, whatever.  I lived in D.C. and LOVED not having a car.  But this is insane!  MILLIONS OF DOLLARS on a system that they WANT to fail so they can point a finger and say "see told you it wouldn't work.  now we have to build more highways cause that's what people want."  Ugh, this is so frustrating.

It would connect to the existing system by utilizing existing track at the O&M facility.  I don't think any estimates have been given.  At this point, its just a conceptual plan identifying the route of a future Riverside Avenue extension.  However, it would be good to make sure whatever is planned, is well integrated with other transit modes.  For example, if the plan is to construct a skyway extension down Riverside Avenue, this line and future streetcar plans should tie in together to make sure they aren't competing for the same riders.

Quote from: archiphreak on July 20, 2009, 10:25:10 AM
2 stations 1/2 mile apart?  What the hell kind of planning is that?!  1/2 mile = 2,640 feet or less than 900 yards.  And does it actually connect to the rest of the functioning skyway or is this just another way to bring people from one place they don't want to go to another place they don't want to go?
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the skyway, mass transit, rail, whatever.  I lived in D.C. and LOVED not having a car.  But this is insane!  MILLIONS OF DOLLARS on a system that they WANT to fail so they can point a finger and say "see told you it wouldn't work.  now we have to build more highways cause that's what people want."  Ugh, this is so frustrating.

The two stops are necessary as there are two main areas they are focusing on there. The first one appears to be across from Haskel and the YMCA building and this would more be for future developement in the Brooklyn Park area. It is kind of like the Jefferson Station Now.

The one behind Johny's will be the one that services all the office towers there, and could maybe service the Art Market if you don't mind walking a bit. I think they are both good stops and smart planning.

I agree that the stadium line would blow the socks off the ridership. Passing through new buildings and connectivity to the whole of downtown would make this a no brainer. Stations need 2 elevated floors with a ground, mid level and top level. A Skywalk should connect these 2Nd floors to various buildings in the core. Just imagine if First Baptist had a Skyway into Rosa Parks transfer station. Can you imagine the sports TV shots of our Skyway coming into the 2Nd floor of our football stadium? This would be public relations of the grandest kind and we would be the envy of every other City in the NFL.

The Brooklyn/Riverside extension with the Skyway hidden behind Blue Cross may not be the best route. Aim it at Riverside Drive and put the station at midblock in the median. Next connect these buildings to the Skyway in a manner that nobody gets wet, frozen or hit by lightning.

David: The San Marco PCT did run for a shot time into the San Marco core. It connected on the north end with other transit. The trouble they ran into is the Florida East Coast transfer trains made it lose its schedule and employers were furious that the employees of various shops couldn't get back from lunch hour in a timely manner, blocked by trains. BTW The earliest history I have found for the City Of South Jacksonville has proved the railroad crossings have been a problem since incorporation. There is even legal actions where the City of South Jax tried to force an overpass or underpass. This started in the 1920's and it's still relevent today. We don't need the PCT fleet trying to be either a streetcar or a Skyway. We need the Skyway to meet the buses, and/or streetcars as well as Amtrak at Atlantic and the Florida East Coast crossing, on the WEST side of the tracks, with a walkover to the east side.  

QuotePosted on: Today at 10:25:10 AMPosted by: archiphreak  
Insert Quote
2 stations 1/2 mile apart?  What the hell kind of planning is that?!  1/2 mile = 2,640 feet or less than 900 yards.  And does it actually connect to the rest of the functioning skyway or is this just another way to bring people from one place they don't want to go to another place they don't want to go?
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the skyway, mass transit, rail, whatever.  I lived in D.C. and LOVED not having a car.  But this is insane!  MILLIONS OF DOLLARS on a system that they WANT to fail so they can point a finger and say "see told you it wouldn't work.  now we have to build more highways cause that's what people want."  Ugh, this is so frustrating.

Don't worry - be happy archiphreak...
The Skyway links most certainly are to be connected to the whole system. Think of the Skyway as a horizontal elevator, the original system was planned and built as a people mover and some still call it that today. When we switched to TRUE monorail, the expansion boundary's expanded many times. Even so it is NOT a rapid transit system, however it IS an intra-city fixed transit system. Half mile stops are fine as the Skyway should scoop up the inbound passengers from Amtrak, Commuter Rail, River Taxi, BRT, JTA and Streetcars. The passengers on the Skyway would feed other transit modes, and depending on the time of day those stops should be busy. The same people who ride the Riverside "PCT bus THING" will pack the Skyway. Also FYI, I am the guy who told the mayor, jta, newspapers and TV that it WILL NOT WORK. Nobody listened, even though I made enough noise to be interview on "Good Morning America." From that point forward, JTA has seen me as an enemy. NOT TRUE! I AM a transit guy and I now believe since we have the Skyway in spite of my best efforts, then lets make it the best little Monorail this side of Disney (worlds largest and most traveled Monorail system). If anyone could point that finger it would be me, but you see as a realist, we have it and lets make it sing.


OCKLAWAHA

QuotePassing through new buildings and connectivity to the whole of downtown would make this a no brainer. Stations need 2 elevated floors with a ground, mid level and top level.

Something like this?  A few images from Downtown Detroit last week.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594993882_Toc9D-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594980583_tt7fg-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594973230_YG4sn-M.jpg)

what a colosal waste. some form of street care would be much less expensive and morfe popular.

They need to leave the Skyway as is.  It has not worked in the past and its elevated piers/tracks are visual blight.  New forms of transport are more viable and cost effective.  It would be unattractive to run the skyway right in front of all the future architecture along riverside avenue.  Ground level transport is more attractive and user friendly.

Quote from: archiphreak on July 20, 2009, 10:25:10 AM
2 stations 1/2 mile apart?  What the hell kind of planning is that?!  1/2 mile = 2,640 feet or less than 900 yards. 

Most modern rail transit systems (light rail/subways) have stops every mile or two...commuter rail stops are 2-10 miles apart....but circulators (like the Skyway) have stops every 1/4 - 1/2 mile.

Remember that the average person is willing to walk no more than 1/3 of a mile to get to transit.

Prof, you said it all.

Exactly Lake, the top and bottom photos are what makes Detroit's system so attractive. Add to the Detroit system the fact that it is TRUE ELECTRIC RAIL, on steel wheels, and their people mover becomes something like the Vancouver Sky Train.

Leaving it alone is the worst of all options, it's like saying your child broke it's leg in the park. The leg is already broken, so do we leave it alone or fix it? As is our Skyway has been the brunt of at least two INTERNATIONAL news specials with titles such as "What if they built a transit system and nobody came." I got hammered in Colombia the day after that TV show, every person at the railroad was laughing and saying "That's Roberts Transit Line." I nearly had to make death threats to get them to stop laughing. Lets fix it NOW!

So we either have the worlds largest monument to transportation stupidity, or the most connected monorail in the world. Visual blight? This is a showpiece in downtown Jacksonville. If we can get it up and over the new I-95 and down to San Marco + Stadium + Riverside it would completely turn around. We might actually have to order those center cars that JTA gave me the plans for. Imagine Joe Executive driving to Disney from New York, the company is thinking of relocation and he is thinking Orlando. As he rolls through town to the Bay Meadows, Best Western, he is always scoping out locations. The kids in the back seat are watching a Disney video, as they pass the sea of neon downtown. "Wow, what a beautiful City," he exclaims as they cross the Fuller Warren. His wife instantly agrees with him. "Oh look, what is THAT," the wife nearly shouts, as a 4 car Skyway train rolls past above their heads. "That is the coolest thing I have ever seen!" He pulls off and circles back to get a better look. THAT'S when he hears the gong of a streetcar and the horn on the Amtrak Corridor train. Off in the distance he see's the stadium lights, as the crowd roars to life, "TOUCHDOWN JACKSONVILLE," SOLD!

OCKLAWAHA

I'm not a big fan of the skyway either. Even if it was extended, I still wouldn't ride it. I get your point of the kid's broken leg, but he needs his legs to walk. We don't need the skyway to go anywhere. I could just ride the bus or ride a bike. I would ride a vintage trolley system though. Something about it just seems cool.

Just 11 game days would double the annual ridership. Currently hovering at about 390,000 per year, to perhaps 720,000. These numbers consider the Skyway at capacity for one hour before and after each game. This is interesting because there are a lot more venues downtown then simply the Jaguars.  

OCKLAWAHA

just dont hire the guy who did the disney monorail

Quote from: TheProfessor on July 20, 2009, 11:24:40 AM
They need to leave the Skyway as is.  It has not worked in the past and its elevated piers/tracks are visual blight.  New forms of transport are more viable and cost effective.  It would be unattractive to run the skyway right in front of all the future architecture along riverside avenue.  Ground level transport is more attractive and user friendly.

The Professor knows best!

Geesh, this is like a bad weed in the yard that just keeps coming back!  Well, guess what?  So do I.  ;)

I've already given my many reasons (overlapping with the Professor's) on countless other MJ $ky-high-way related threads on why extending this ugly animal's trunk into Riverside and elsewhere is really more of an extension of wasting money.  Money that could be spent on other mass transit projects with much better returns on investment and service to the greater community.

As to this "available" right of way, let it be the beginning of a street car line from downtown to Riverside/Avondale/Ortega, a public space/park, or sold for some innovative developments and be on with it!

There is no genie in this bottle and rubbing it countless times isn't going to make one appear  :D .

^However, parking is not tight, except on full stadium events (Jaguars, Florida-Georgia, Gator Bowl, etc)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 20, 2009, 12:16:16 PM
Just 11 game days would double the annual ridership. Currently hovering at about 390,000 per year, to perhaps 720,000. These numbers consider the Skyway at capacity for one hour before and after each game. This is interesting because there are a lot more venues downtown then simply the Jaguars.  

OCKLAWAHA

I'm not sure how you count ridership, Ock.  If a "ride" is a one way trip, we are talking about less than 2,000 trips average per day.  If these are round trips, that's only 1,000 people average per day served.  I am sure the bus system could serve a lot more people than that with the money.  Or a street car.  Or a trolley.  Or, maybe, even a taxi  ;) .

I don't see 25% to 50% of the stadium crowd piling on the $ky-high-way for game day unless they all lived downtown and the weather was too bad to walk.  With all due respect, this would be, if used by a consultant, another "back door" fantasy number to help achieve a traffic count desired to justify the project.  Once built, it will fail miserably to be achieved in the real world just as all other traffic projections for the $ky-high-way's previous original and extended contructions have been off by 90%!

How far down Riverside will it extend?  From reading the above article, they are not thinking logically or really focusing on the here and now if it ends near Blue Cross/Blue Shield as someone stated; it appears they're hedging their bets on increased growth along the Riverside Avenue Corridor...in my opinion there is just not enough along that corridor at present to justify extending the skyway, however, if they said they were extending it all the way down to near five points, that my friends would be a more valid and sensible reason and justification for this extension.  If they build it now, and stick to the plan as is, they will be again building a portion of the skyway to "nowhere."

Heights Unknown

^Future plans would link Riverside and Five Points to Downtown with a streetcar line.  An argument could be made that this same streetcar line could also serve this area.

Streetcars interact as oppose to hover above the pedestrian.  I think this in your face approach would encourage ridership and interface with the buildings better than an elevated skyway system.  If they would only convert the skyway into light rail and let it hit the ground level at its expansion points, then the future expansion would have better integration.

Would it be a viable option to extend the Skyway down Riverside Ave at street level?  (Kind of defeats the purpose of calling it the "Skyway," but it might be more attractive and more easily accessed at street level).

If it ran at street level, you would not be able to cross it at grade.  So if you were traveling by car, foot, or bike, from downtown to Riverside, you would not be able to make a right turn between the Acosta Bridge and Edison Street.

I think the Riverside/Jax Landing trolley summer ridership exceeded the Skyway annual ridership.

If the trolley system could be more of a permanent structure (aka street car) and ran from Riverside to the stadium area on one line; and ran from San Marco to FCCJ Downtown campus with an intersecting hub somewhere near Hemming Plaza it would be a success.  Even if the skyway effectively ran these lines, it would be more of a success.  As is the Skyway is a joke.  I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick

Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 20, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
I think the Riverside/Jax Landing trolley summer ridership exceeded the Skyway annual ridership.

If the trolley system could be more of a permanent structure (aka street car) and ran from Riverside to the stadium area on one line; and ran from San Marco to FCCJ Downtown campus with an intersecting hub somewhere near Hemming Plaza it would be a success.  Even if the skyway effectively ran these lines, it would be more of a success.  As is the Skyway is a joke.  I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick

No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Personally I would take it from 5 points daily to work and if possible straight to the stadium on game-days. I believe there are enough people like me who would commute to their workplace downtown from Riverside, San Marco â€" then over to a Suns game after work or the bay st. strip on Friday nights with of course a safe / cheap ride back home at the end of the evening. An extended skyway (and possible street car) would make downtown more accessible for both work & play period.

Quote from: Shwaz on July 20, 2009, 05:57:41 PM
No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Shwaz, an elevator in the tallest structure in the world wouldn't go more than about 2,500 feet.  That is, tops, a half mile.  The $ky-high-way does, and is proposed to, extend many times that distance.  So, elevator (or other relatively slow) speeds are already an issue in the present application expanded as proposed, or not.

And, no, I don't see this discussion being resolved by expressing a personal opinion based on one's own desire to ride it.  Rather, the debate should be focused on the context of the entire community to be served and invoiced for its costs and against what other options/solutions the $ky-high-way might be measured against.  Unfortunately, you appear to be practicing the claim you make, making your decision to support this on your singular needs only.  That's your prerogative, but that won't go far in convincing several hundred thousand (or millions, if federal money is used) of your fellow taxpayers to support your position.

Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 20, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick.

I don't think most people would ride it only for one stop . I usually use it when I'm parked somewhere in San Marco and want to go across the river say to the Landing or some distance longer than a few blocks. When you ride it in those terms it is more worth the wait. Although I do agree that you have to wait a little too long for some of the cars. Seems like in Miami you don't have that long of a wait usually.

From my experience, it seems that the people mover in Miami is well used (just based on the times I've ridden it not actual figures) because it's an inexpensive way (for the riders not taxpayers) to get to those places that are just beyond a comfortable walking distance fairly quickly. Considering that the attractions in urban Jax are so spread out Skyway could be link for connecting downtown within itself. I don't think Skyway is intended for a suburban commute. That's more in the realm of light rail or BRT I'd say. It is only a part of a wider system.

I do wonder how streetcars compare as far as operational costs compared to monorail and the trolley buses though.

Streetcar O&M costs are lower than buses made to look like trolleys and monorails.  They also have the ability to stimulate infill pedestrian friendly development (more property tax income for a struggling city budget) and attract more riders than fake trolleys.

(http://knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/d/d3/Sydney_Subway.jpg)
This is a monorail done RIGHT, compaire this with our own and count the dollars!

Quote from: hightowerlover on July 20, 2009, 12:29:28 PM
just don't hire the guy who did the Disney monorail

Funny hightowerlover... Keep in mind the accident there killed the operator. I will go out on the limb and tell everyone in advance that it was caused by the signaling system. This involves all operation, blocks, sensors, lights etc. The train may not pass a sensor without automatically setting the brakes. Somehow she passed TWO blocks and nothing happened until she hit the stopped train. As she was in a curve, she probably only had seconds to react. The signals I believe are United Technologies, formerly Union Switch and Signal. The monorail builders both there and here are completely different.  

Quote from: TheProfessor on July 20, 2009, 01:48:11 PM
Streetcars interact as oppose to hover above the pedestrian.  I think this in your face approach would encourage ridership and interface with the buildings better than an elevated skyway system.  If they would only convert the skyway into light rail and let it hit the ground level at its expansion points, then the future expansion would have better integration.

Hey Professor, got to tweak your railroadology and as a ferroequinologist preach and teach... Any great transit system will consist of a mix of modes and routes, more or less laid out like patches in a quilt. Each mode tends to feed the next and each mode can be located where it operates most efficiently. While the Skyway was never intended to be a longer range system, such a system would be ideal for locations such as Mayport NS, or NAS Jax, to the surrounding areas. As the traffic disperses, you would want lighter density connections such as a bus or single streetcar. Most of the price tag of the Skyway is found in the bridge and the operations and maintenance base across the street from the TU newspaper. The per mile today for a single track line shouldn't be much different then that of a quality Light Rail System. As it now stands the Skyway is nearly useless to us. As the heavy expenses are behind us, we could extend from the current stations into locations that would have a future in feeding the whole network. Some examples of my vision would be:

Kings Avenue to Hilton - San Marco (Atlantic Av. Next to, and West of the Railroad tracks) : 2 stations needed. Would ultimately connect with the Amtrak corridor trains at a Atlantic Av Station, Bus Rapid Transit to Philips, San Jose, and Beach, plus local bus services, shuttles etc.

Central Station to Stadium: 3 stations needed: Newnan St Intermodal, Shipyards and Stadium/Parks complex. connecting with buses and streetcars at Newnan. Sports/Parks Complex station would direct skywalk access to the stadium, as well as the "mother of all parking garages" complete with easy on / easy off freeway ramps from both the Hart and Matthews Bridges.

Riverside Extension: 3 new stations: One in front of the Skyway Operations Center and the second at Edison Avenue and Riverside (I would NOT go behind or west of the buildings at BCBS) and the last a true intermodal/TOD station-theater-mall at Annie Lytle. The Annie Station would offer limited parking, a grand paseo directly into 5-Points, bus, BRT, Streetcar and Taxi lanes. The whole school would then be redeveloped into a "Landing" sort of place.

Jacksonville Terminal: Station and line is already in place, a covered walk or pedestrian tunnel from the Skyway to the Concourse of the Terminal would make for an easy transfer, as well as a sheltered walk to the streetcars. Amtrak has already been looking at this as a feeder to the system. The Skyway definitely got their attention.

As far as "in your face" and integration, the tighter the matrix the better the ultimate system. The better the mix the better the traffic opportunities. The Skyway does not have to be a dead or dying railroad.  

Quote from: ralpho37 on July 20, 2009, 02:31:26 PM
Would it be a viable option to extend the Skyway down Riverside Ave at street level?  (Kind of defeats the purpose of calling it the "Skyway," but it might be more attractive and more easily accessed at street level).

Ralph, it isn't viable as Lakelander pointed out, because it is impossible to cross at grade. Many savings could be realized by bringing the end point terminals down to grade level just for the short distance of the station itself. This would only be an option at San Marco (FEC RY and ATLANTIC) where it could create a cross platform transfer to the bus or train. Another location where the Skyway could come down to grade would be at the Stadium / Parks station in the East Side, or old Fairfield. Several early monorails built around 1820-1880 were built at ground level only to be torn out by street crossing demands.

Quote from: Shwaz on July 20, 2009, 05:57:41 PM

Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 20, 2009, 05:36:28 PM
I think the Riverside/Jax Landing trolley summer ridership exceeded the Skyway annual ridership.

If the trolley system could be more of a permanent structure (aka street car) and ran from Riverside to the stadium area on one line; and ran from San Marco to FCCJ Downtown campus with an intersecting hub somewhere near Hemming Plaza it would be a success.  Even if the skyway effectively ran these lines, it would be more of a success.  As is the Skyway is a joke.  I can walk from the King Street station to the San Marco Station faster than waiting on and riding the skyway there.  Not to mention how slow it is when taking it from the King Street Station to Hemming Plaza.  At its current rate of travel, it just isn't very practical.

Can you imagine trying to commute from the beaches to downtown on the skyway system?  Jacksonville's suicide rate would skyrocket from people jumping off the elevated tracks.

Whatever system Jacksonville decides to put in place needs to be reliable and quick

No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Personally I would take it from 5 points daily to work and if possible straight to the stadium on game-days. I believe there are enough people like me who would commute to their workplace downtown from Riverside, San Marco â€" then over to a Suns game after work or the bay st. strip on Friday nights with of course a safe / cheap ride back home at the end of the evening. An extended skyway (and possible street car) would make downtown more accessible for both work & play period.

JaxNative68, Speed is altogether a different matter, in fact the Skyway has been up to 50 miles per hour in tests. I would imagine pretty much a galloping goose at that speed. You are correct in the summary that speed isn't one of it's selling points though it could be, but sight seeing, and laying back after a hard day in the office make it most desireable. The original concept was for a river crossing more or less at the foot of Laura Street, had it been built that way, getting from Southside to the Northbank would have been a snap, but the Landing would have been a mess.

On another note, The "Trolley System" is neither a trolley nor a system. If the Trolley System were made up of REAL Trolleys, be it bus or rail, the ridership would go sky high. The sound and air pollution would drop to zero with electric powered transit, and Jacksonville would be selling carbon credits to other cities or major companies in the world market. Perhaps we would be the first City to make money on Mass Transit, but we need to: "Plan for it to work, and work on our Plan!"

Quote from: stjr on July 20, 2009, 07:38:04 PM

Quote from: Shwaz on July 20, 2009, 05:57:41 PM
No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Shwaz, an elevator in the tallest structure in the world wouldn't go more than about 2,500 feet.  That is, tops, a half mile.  The $ky-high-way does, and is proposed to, extend many times that distance.  So, elevator (or other relatively slow) speeds are already an issue in the present application expanded as proposed, or not.

And, no, I don't see this discussion being resolved by expressing a personal opinion based on one's own desire to ride it.  Rather, the debate should be focused on the context of the entire community to be served and invoiced for its costs and against what other options/solutions the $ky-high-way might be measured against.  Unfortunately, you appear to be practicing the claim you make, making your decision to support this on your singular needs only.  That's your prerogative, but that won't go far in convincing several hundred thousand (or millions, if federal money is used) of your fellow taxpayers to support your position.

Shwaz, You are correct that the Skyway, Miami's Metro Mover, Detroit's People Mover, or the shuttles at the Orlando International Airport are more elevator then they are express train. The technology is in place today and with a slight update to our application, the Skyway could be blowing through stops where no one is getting on or off. Again, just like an elevator, only much faster. A fact that few seem to know is that any electric transit vehicle, should have a rate of acceleration superior to internal combustion vehicles. In summary, the Jacksonville Skyway can accelerate at a pace that would blow the doors off the big gray buses.  

stjr, This discussion will not be resolved unless we find a conservative way to build mass transit. You should be looking out for your fellow taxpayers and insist that our city does not invest in Mass Transit as it is only an accommodation needed by the poor. All modes of Transit should operate at a profit and cover all initial investment or sundry charges. If people need a way to move around the City, we should immediately add lanes to our freeways, and consider building a new freeway through the middle of downtown. It is only the consultants and so called experts that suggest a $kyway would be cheaper then a freeway in per mile costs. There is nothing personal about refusing facts published by The Monorail Society, JTA, USDOT, or The American Public Transportation Association, Claiming that you would ride a monorail based on where you work, live or play is pure speculation. Along with more lane miles within the metropolis, a flexible transit system operating on 45 minute headways should be sufficient  provided it is not subsidized by the American people. (DID I GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME MY NEGATIVE FRIEND?)

QuoteQuote from Fallen Buckeye:
I do wonder how streetcars compare as far as operational costs compared to monorail and the trolley buses though.

This depends on a couple of flexible factors but all things equal here's an idea:
Electric Streetcars are probably the cheapest, and long lived form of transit ever invented (BTW did you know it's a true American invention? Unlike monorails (German) or buses (France and the UK)) the electric streetcar made it's appearance in Richmond, Virginia. Monorails are generally more expensive to build and as most (including the Skyway) roll on rubber tires they tend to have a life span not unlike that of automobiles. Trolley buses also are limited in their life span, however the mechanical componets are about the same as streetcars. Operator expense seats per operator, the monorail wins, in our case there is NO (per train) operator so labor is really cheap. After that streetcars as they can run in trains. buses would be the most expensive by seats per operator. The overhead wires on a trolley bus are more complex then that of streetcars. trolley buses can't ground the circuit through rubber tires so a return or negative wire is needed. Monorails generally use a third rail (Skyway does too) which is much more complex then simple single trolley wire. Streetcars in both Maine and California are in daily operation at an age in excess of 100 years. In New Orleans the Pearl Thomas cars are all 80+ years old and still in daily service. The oldest monorail in the USA is in Seattle and it dates from 1962.

ALL OTHERS:
As an alternative to streetcars, light rail, water taxi's and buses, trolleys, trolley buses and unicycles, we have new words from the BUS RAPID TRANSIT camp. With your permission, I will translate the latest sales pitch from the highway gods. Each point is marked by bullets and the translation is marked by a Astrix (*)

The underlying concept of BRT is simple:duplicate the reliability, level of service, comfort, and appeal of a modern LRT line while achieving the flexibility and cost-effectiveness inherent in bus systems. BRT services should include the following attributes:
• Exclusive bus lanes, bus streets, and busways *BRT runs on streets that in spite of expense, nobody else can use.
• Bus signal priority or preemption *BRT will be able to turn a red light into a green one just like streetcars did in 1920
• Reliability *Like all buses, the BRT will always be on time.
• Traffic management improvements *Get out of the way
• Improved fare collection and boarding/alighting patterns *You can buy your ticket in Wal-Mart
• Appealing bus designs and seating arrangements *Somebody painted the bus bench
• Integration of transit station development with adjacent land-use policy *The bus stop will have a bench and roof.
• Improved facilities and passenger amenities such as stations and enhanced stops * two benches and two roofs

And for all of this appeal, we'll only pay $26 Million dollars a mile...

OCKLAWAHA

^I think Fallen Buckeye was referring to PCTs, not real trolley buses.

Quote from: stjr on July 20, 2009, 07:38:04 PM

Quote from: Shwaz on July 20, 2009, 05:57:41 PM
No one is asking for a beach extension and the article is only discussing the possibility of a Riverside Ave line. Also said was that this mode of transportation is more like an elevator that moves laterally. Would you take a 25 mile elevator?

This discussion always tends to become peoples personal opinion based on whether they would ride it or not ride it.

Shwaz, an elevator in the tallest structure in the world wouldn't go more than about 2,500 feet.  That is, tops, a half mile.  The $ky-high-way does, and is proposed to, extend many times that distance.  So, elevator (or other relatively slow) speeds are already an issue in the present application expanded as proposed, or not.

And, no, I don't see this discussion being resolved by expressing a personal opinion based on one's own desire to ride it.  Rather, the debate should be focused on the context of the entire community to be served and invoiced for its costs and against what other options/solutions the $ky-high-way might be measured against.  Unfortunately, you appear to be practicing the claim you make, making your decision to support this on your singular needs only.  That's your prerogative, but that won't go far in convincing several hundred thousand (or millions, if federal money is used) of your fellow taxpayers to support your position.

STJR - I backed my claim with why I would ride it and why I think others in the urban core neighborhoods would as well. My point was most people just say "I would or I wouldn't" and that's the reasoning for or against it.

I was saying why the people mover concept wouldn't work for longer runs (downtown / beach) and I believe OCK made the point that travel could be faster and more effecient than any other means in place now.

My point being that you need to make it more reliable, faster and connecting more than one neighborhood to the downtown area.  Connecting it to where the people live is key to boosting its ridership.  If it could be ridden to work on a daily basis rather than having to drive to work then riding it for 'sight seeing' while taking a two hour lunch due to its snails pace, ridership would increase.  Just extending it to Riverside Avenue will not make it any more efficient than it currently is.  Extending the system outside of the downtown area is key.  Maybe during these JTB expansion projects the skyway should have been expanded down I-95 to JTB and out to the beach (obviously it would have to be speed up).  Then you would be connecting points of interest and points of residential neighborhoods.  Downtown, South Point, St Johns Town Center, Mayo Clinic and the beach could all be major stops.

Connecting office buildings to other office buildings just doesn’t cut it.  IT NEEDS TO BE CONNECTED TO WHERE THE PEOPLE LIVE TO BE SUCCESSFULL!

Quote from: JaxNative68 on July 21, 2009, 04:47:59 PM
My point being that you need to make it more reliable, faster and connecting more than one neighborhood to the downtown area.  Connecting it to where the people live is key to boosting its ridership.  If it could be ridden to work on a daily basis rather than having to drive to work then riding it for 'sight seeing' while taking a two hour lunch due to its snails pace, ridership would increase.  Just extending it to Riverside Avenue will not make it any more efficient than it currently is.  Extending the system outside of the downtown area is key.  Maybe during these JTB expansion projects the skyway should have been expanded down I-95 to JTB and out to the beach (obviously it would have to be speed up).  Then you would be connecting points of interest and points of residential neighborhoods.  Downtown, South Point, St Johns Town Center, Mayo Clinic and the beach could all be major stops.

Connecting office buildings to other office buildings just doesn’t cut it.  IT NEEDS TO BE CONNECTED TO WHERE THE PEOPLE LIVE TO BE SUCCESSFULL!

I agree as with all skywway proponents that it does have to be connected to where the people live... but only the immediate neighborhoods - Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc.

The longer runs like Mandarin, Orange Park , Jax Beach need a light rail system not people mover.

However the skyway is already capable of more cars, increased travel speed and a more efficient stopping system like Ock pointed out.

More cars and more speed would work.  I'm not expecting a bullet train to take me 25 miles, but a smooth 55mph would probably get the job done. 

Kick back and read a chapter or two while riding a train to work, used to do it in DC, and it was great!  Not to mention on the ride home as well.  It's a lot better than driving amongst the Jacksonville road raged people who think they are in a NASCAR race.

It don't mean literally that it has to be the skyway.  The king street station could be a nice transfer hub.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 21, 2009, 12:53:07 AM
stjr, This discussion will not be resolved unless we find a conservative way to build mass transit. You should be looking out for your fellow taxpayers and insist that our city does not invest in Mass Transit as it is only an accommodation needed by the poor. All modes of Transit should operate at a profit and cover all initial investment or sundry charges. If people need a way to move around the City, we should immediately add lanes to our freeways, and consider building a new freeway through the middle of downtown. It is only the consultants and so called experts that suggest a $kyway would be cheaper then a freeway in per mile costs. There is nothing personal about refusing facts published by The Monorail Society, JTA, USDOT, or The American Public Transportation Association, Claiming that you would ride a monorail based on where you work, live or play is pure speculation. Along with more lane miles within the metropolis, a flexible transit system operating on 45 minute headways should be sufficient  provided it is not subsidized by the American people. (DID I GET IT RIGHT THIS TIME MY NEGATIVE FRIEND?)

Ock, for every "negative" there is a "positive".  I am "positive" I am right.  You are "negative" toward my position.  You are "positive" you are right.  I am "negative" toward your position.  So, we are actually guilty of the same pleasures, just in differing camps.  I'm OK, your OK.  ;)

Of course, your satire misrepresents my points by far, for those just joining the fray.

I have no problem with a money losing system, but I do not support a system that loses far more money than a better alternative.  I am POSITIVELY FOR supporting rail mass transit (especially over building more roads such as the Outer Beltway), but that doesn't give planners a blank check to buy just any system.

I am POSITIVELY FOR the best value and results for my money.  I don't believe for a moment that the $ky-high-way does that despite your nicely made and impassioned points.  Why?  Well that brings us to your next point, consultants.  Transportation consultants have a rather notorious reputation for being far off on projections of traffic and investment dollars needed for public transit projects.  The $ky-high-way is Exhibit A with estimates for the already completed system being off over 90% after 20 years!  Don't blame me for being skeptical, blame your consultant friends.  I am POSITIVELY FOR consultants bearing the burden as to why they should be suddenly believed after a two decade history of so many, to put it nicely, grossly negligent projections ("prostituting lies" might be used by others).

And, my point with Shwaz was we can't build or extend the $ky-high-way or any other system just because a handful of people say they would use it because it happens to satisfy their unique needs.  I am POSITIVELY FOR a system that serves the community at large.

As to frequency, I am not sure I get your drift, but I am POSITIVELY FOR a viable system that operates at peak times with no less than 15 minute intervals and that operates almost 24/7.  I am POSITIVELY FOR reliable frequency of service and not requiring people to memorize uneven and unpredictable schedules, to me, is a major traffic builder.

You didn't mention it, but I will stir the pot a bit more and bring up my skepticism about the willingness of people to interface between other transit modes and the $ky-high-way.  I am POSITIVELY FOR a user-friendly design, not one that disuades potential riders due to its elevated and intimidating architecture, generally inconvenient inter-modal connection possibilities, slow speed, unreliable and infrequent service, and short distance runs (even at your extended 3 or 4 miles).

I am also POSITIVELY FOR a transit system that complements or blends with existing infrastructure, architecture, and streetscapes rather than overwhelms, detracts, and/or competes with them.

Ock, you can take your limited time and energy and throw it behind a losing horse named the $ky-high-way, or you can move on and bet on a winner for the future.  I am POSITIVELY FOR choosing to move on to the better solution(s) we all know are out there.

Now, you can tell people stories otherwise, but I am POSITIVELY sure anything else just ain't so from my lips.  Now it's "right", my equally "negative friend".  ;D

Quote from: stjr on July 22, 2009, 12:05:14 AM

Ock, you can take your limited time and energy and throw it behind a losing horse named the $ky-high-way, or you can move on and bet on a winner for the future.  I am POSITIVELY FOR choosing to move on to the better solution(s) we all know are out there.

Brings up an interesting point. Obviously there is a need a more comprehensive public transportation system here, but limited means to make that system a reality. So what is the priority here? Should focus on how people get around in the downtown area or is it more important to get people to the downtown area through commuter rail?

My feeling is that it'd be important to focus on connecting downtown to the suburban areas first. If you get more people downtown quickly and conveniently, then maybe there would more of a market for a street car or expanded Skyway system. In the meantime, buses or "trolleys" could circulate riders within the core while a street car or similar system is being developed. Whoever is in charge would just have to make sure they plan the commuter rail lines and stations in such a way that it would complement future street car (or Skyway) development.

Although I could also see the other side of the argument too...

Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 22, 2009, 12:44:23 AM

Quote from: stjr on July 22, 2009, 12:05:14 AM

Ock, you can take your limited time and energy and throw it behind a losing horse named the $ky-high-way, or you can move on and bet on a winner for the future.  I am POSITIVELY FOR choosing to move on to the better solution(s) we all know are out there.

Brings up an interesting point. Obviously there is a need a more comprehensive public transportation system here, but limited means to make that system a reality. So what is the priority here? Should focus on how people get around in the downtown area or is it more important to get people to the downtown area through commuter rail?

Buckeye, welcome.

I vote for rail mass transit connecting to Downtown as priority #1.  There aren't enough people currently in or around our downtown to support much intra-downtown mass transit presently.  Let's generate some people and then build out a complimentary system for Downtown.  I am pulling for street cars/trolleys.  It's friendly, efficient, flexible, and convenient.

In my view, the $ky-high-way was a huge mistake by every measure, will never fit in, and needs to be removed.  You don't see any new installations of these things and the cities with the most used mass transit are doing just fine with a combo of rail mass transit and street cars/trolleys/buses.  No $ky-high-ways.  There is a reason.  'Nough said. 

So we should take the skyway down? lol,, The skyway should have been extended as the original plans had called for. Taking it down will be a hugh mistake. The Skyway will always have its naysayers there's a long line of people waiting for that. The skyway already connects the North Bank to South, so when we take the skyway down, then we build a street car across the river, use trollys or do we build light right and a station. I dont see any other cities(recent) taking skyways down either. quote lets generate some people,, yeah lets do that.

QuoteWhy?  Well that brings us to your next point, consultants.  Transportation consultants have a rather notorious reputation for being far off on projections of traffic and investment dollars needed for public transit projects.  The $ky-high-way is Exhibit A with estimates for the already completed system being off over 90% after 20 years! 

So you blame consultants for being "off over 90% after 20 years" yet the consultants projections were based on the original plan for a full buildout of the system.  The system has not been built out as the original plans called for.  Obviously the projections are going to be off if the they are based on a different system than the one that was studied.  Could it be that if it was built out ridership would be more on par with the consultants projections? 

QuoteI am POSITIVELY FOR a system that serves the community at large.

Are you saying that the Skyway could not be part of a system that serves the community at large?  What if it was extended and interfaced with streetcar or light rail or bus.  What if it was part of a comprehensive transit system.  I would argue that the Skyway could be a valuable and viable part of a larger system that serves the community at large.

I don't think tearing it down would be wise at this point.

Isn't it a fact that if we were to tear it down we would owe the feds back all the money?! That'll get us a fast track to mass transit   ::)

How successful would light-rail be if you were to say -- run a line from the beach's , Greencove, Orange Park but the stations were just short of their neighborhoods and business's in those areas? Then ran the lines to just short of downtown.

"Elevated and intimidating architecture"   :-\ You're really reaching now :D

About as successful as I-95 without the Fuller Warren Bridge or I-295 without the Buckman.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/SydneyMonorail1_gobeirne.jpg/800px-SydneyMonorail1_gobeirne.jpg)

Quote from: Shwaz on July 22, 2009, 09:31:49 AM
Isn't it a fact that if we were to tear it down we would owe the feds back all the money?! That'll get us a fast track to mass transit ::)

How successful would light-rail be if you were to say -- run a line from the beach's , Greencove, Orange Park but the stations were just short of their neighborhoods and business's in those areas? Then ran the lines to just short of downtown.

"Elevated and intimidating architecture"   :-\ You're really reaching now :D

Every Penny would have to be refunded, not only that, but according to UTU and other Union Contracts every employee would have to be protected. I'm not sure the employment but from Lake and I walking through the center I'd say 10 to 15 professionals, electricians, mechanics, linemen, car cleaners etc. stjr would say they could be redeployed as bus drivers or some such but imagine your boss telling you this morning, "Hey, your gonna love your new job!" Factually they COULD be redeployed on a light rail system, IF we had a light rail system. Pretty much the same creature, wanna know what a real streetcar sounds like? Listen to the Skyway and add a whistle and bell.

Your point about missing the target area's or passenger producer locations is very well taken. The worst part about the Skyway story is we didn't half finish the job, considering the infrastructure, we finished 7/8 Th's of the system, then quit.
I know that Amtrak is VERY IMPRESSED with the Skyway, and in fact it, plus a streetcar might beat out the dazzle of Orlando for the Florida Terminal. They are jazzed about a City with a fixed transit system right to the door of the depot and have asked us to finish it, (stjr, Lake and I were in the meeting and both heard the reviews).  

(http://www.businesstravellogue.com/files/2007/03/las-vegas-monorail.jpg)

Quote from: cline on July 22, 2009, 08:43:12 AM

QuoteWhy?  Well that brings us to your next point, consultants.  Transportation consultants have a rather notorious reputation for being far off on projections of traffic and investment dollars needed for public transit projects.  The $ky-high-way is Exhibit A with estimates for the already completed system being off over 90% after 20 years! 

So you blame consultants for being "off over 90% after 20 years" yet the consultants projections were based on the original plan for a full buildout of the system.  The system has not been built out as the original plans called for.  Obviously the projections are going to be off if the they are based on a different system than the one that was studied.  Could it be that if it was built out ridership would be more on par with the consultants projections? 

QuoteI am POSITIVELY FOR a system that serves the community at large.

Are you saying that the Skyway could not be part of a system that serves the community at large?  What if it was extended and interfaced with streetcar or light rail or bus.  What if it was part of a comprehensive transit system.  I would argue that the Skyway could be a valuable and viable part of a larger system that serves the community at large.

I don't think tearing it down would be wise at this point.

(http://www.thelasvegasadventurer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/vegas_monorail.jpg)

"Comprehensive System," pretty much sums up what I am speaking of. Friends? Did you know that "I" am the consultant we are speaking about? Retired (or just plain tired), I was in on this war from the start. Did you know what I told the City back in 1980? I told them this whole idea was insane, and all they were going to do is waste a ton of money and get a turkey for mass transit. In this case I don't like to be right so I am spending what energy I have left on earth, trying to fix someone elses screw up. I'm not trying to sound like Robin Hood, more like a barefoot consultant that wants to give my city the best transit system in the South. On a positive note, JTA is listening to all of us.

The best that I can redesign it is still only about 1/2 the original concept. In the early plans a huge circle went around downtown. The downtown circle was something like BAY - Main - Duval - Broad, and from that circle where 4 or 5 tap lines that reached into the hoods. There was even an incredible, signature skyway bridge over the river at about the location of the Landings courtyard. Consider that all we can do as a city is try and fix the shortsighted mistakes of past administrations all of which have taken the approach of HANDS OFF - IT WILL JUST GO AWAY GIVEN 2,000 to 3,000 years time. Today we can't even get the TU or local news to carry a story of how it "might just work."

As far as original ridership estimates go, the Skyway was all over the board. They even claimed thousands of daily riders for the fist few thousand feet. Talk about over baking the numbers! But they had this idea everyone would park down at Jacksonville Terminal and Jefferson Street and ride the "Disney" to Sears, Iveys, Furchgotts, Rosenblooms, Learners, etc. The comedy was by the time it was funded and built, there were no retails places left to go to.

You all have made excellent points:

1. Abandonment would REALLY cost us.
2. Finishing it would probably be much cheaper.
3. If abandoned the feds would likely never fund a transit project in Jacksonville again.
4. It is not a transit system, rather, it is part of a transit system and should function as such.

Point number 4 is the key to our transit future. The Skyway could be funded at 100% federal right now, as the Feds are looking for just such projects and will fund "Fixed Route Transit" at 100%.  But our time is very limited, we must ask now!

In the bigger picture, the Skyway would represent the express line in downtown. Certainly it's speed and over the traffic construction would make it quicker then ANY bus or streetcar. Meanwhile the streetcars would be slower in town and become faster once beyond the core. Ditto the BRT or Bus system. It would offer a critical choice and station stops could be programed to make it the fastest thing in downtown.  

(http://makezine.com/images/makerfaire_2006/projects/215_monorail.JPG)
Who says our Mass Transit isn't up to par?

OCKLAWAHA

JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

Ock and Lake, no advance notice on this?  I thought you were on top of JTA happenings like this!

Florida Times Union:

QuoteJTA: Bus shuttles coming for neighborhoods
Skyway to be closed on Saturdays, to run weekdays only

By Larry Hannan Story updated at 6:02 PM on Wednesday, Jul. 22, 2009

A series of changes is on the way for transportation service in Jacksonville.

The Jacksonville Transportation Authority has unveiled tentative changes to bus routes in Jacksonville that will keep larger buses out of residential neighborhoods. It also wants to discontinue Skyway service on Saturday.

Under the plans what would take effect on Sept. 7, service with the bigger, 40-seat buses that are about 35 feet long will be scaled back, and smaller, 20-seat shuttles that are about 25 feet long will be introduced into about a half-dozen neighborhoods. The smaller buses also provide para-transit service, usually called JTA Connexion.

The Skyway schedule would be cut to weekdays only because of low ridership.

These plans are tentative and could be changed. JTA will conduct two public meetings today  at the FCCJ downtown campus to get feedback.

The Times-Union spoke to JTA service planning manager Kent Stover  and JTA spokesman Mike Miller about the proposed changes.

What is JTA planning to do?

JTA will introduce shuttle service to the areas around Cecil Commerce Parkway, the Northside, Orange Park, Mandarin, Broward Road, and Southside and the Beaches. These shuttles will remain in specific neighborhoods and not go from one part of the city to another, like the larger buses do now.

One shuttle was previously introduced in 2008, in Arlington, and that has been a success. So JTA is moving forward with more shuttles.

What if a person wants to take a bus from the Beaches to Mandarin?

You will need to take the larger buses. However, each of the smaller shuttle buses will have a connection point that will allow you to get on the bigger buses. For example, the Broward Road shuttle will let people out at the Highlands Square Shopping Center on Dunn Avenue, where you can get on larger buses that will take you to other parts of town.

How much will these shuttles cost and when will they be running?

The shuttles cost the same as the regular buses: A regular fare is $1; senior citizens ride for free. You can also purchase a monthly pass for $40, a weekly pass for $12 and several discount booklets. For an extra 50 cents, you can call ahead and the bus will deviate from its route to take you to another location, assuming it’s not too far off of the existing route. You must call JTA at least two hours before getting on the bus for this to happen.

Will any existing bus routes change?

Six existing routes will see modifications. Most of these modifications will keep the bus routes out of residential neighborhoods. For example the B-6 route on the Westside now ends at the FCCJ Cecil Center. Because a shuttle will be operating in that area as of Sept. 7, the B-6 route will now end at Old Middleburg Road and 103rd St.

Other routes that will see modifications are the AR-3 in Arlington, NS-2 and NS-14 on the Northside and the SS-6 and SS-8 on the Southside. All the modifications will be detailed at today’s public meetings.

What about the Skyway?

The Skyway will stop operating on Saturdays after Sept. 5, except during special events. The people mover now runs from 1-7 p.m. on Saturdays, but JTA has decided to discontinue Saturday service because of low ridership. It does not run on Sundays and now will operate only on weekdays from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.

How can people give feedback on this before Sept. 7?

JTA will be taking feedback at today’s meetings. If the community opposes any part of this plan, JTA will look into making changes before Sept. 7. People who cannot attend these meetings can also contact JTA by calling 630-3153 or by e-mailing Kent Stover at kstover@jtafla.com.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-07-22/story/jta_bus_shuttles_coming_for_neighborhoods

Quote from: stjr on July 22, 2009, 09:28:14 PM
JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

maybe they are trying to starve the system out of existence...its the same mindset some our local, state, and Federal elected officials have.

Seems like it.  With more limited service it should be expected that ridership will continue to drop.  So where will it end?  What is the overall goal?  Does JTA even know?

Quote from: stjr on July 22, 2009, 09:28:14 PM
JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

LOL, you may be right.  Ridership will continue to decrease.  I will say to JTA, if the goal is to kill it, go ahead and get it over with.  No need to drag things out.

Wow, Ock talk about being NEGATIVE. :D .  Today, the board is chock full of it.  Let's take a look:

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on July 22, 2009, 03:25:59 AM
So we should take the skyway down? lol,, The skyway should have been extended as the original plans had called for. Taking it down will be a hugh mistake. The Skyway will always have its naysayers there's a long line of people waiting for that. The skyway already connects the North Bank to South, so when we take the skyway down, then we build a street car across the river, use trollys or do we build light right and a station. I dont see any other cities(recent) taking skyways down either. quote lets generate some people,, yeah lets do that.

Despite your attempt to rewrite history, the $ky-high-way has been BUILT AS A COMPLETED SYSTEM per original plans and the projections that are off 90% were based on the system AS IT IS without benefit of more changes.  How many times do you want to buy swamp land in Florida or a bridge in New York or a $ky-high-way in Jax?  Over time, the big money is in operating the thing, not building it, so ABANDONMENT could easily be the CHEAPEST option.

Quote from: cline on July 22, 2009, 08:43:12 AM
So you blame consultants for being "off over 90% after 20 years" yet the consultants projections were based on the original plan for a full buildout of the system.  The system has not been built out as the original plans called for.  Obviously the projections are going to be off if the they are based on a different system than the one that was studied.  Could it be that if it was built out ridership would be more on par with the consultants projections? 

Are you saying that the Skyway could not be part of a system that serves the community at large?  What if it was extended and interfaced with streetcar or light rail or bus.  What if it was part of a comprehensive transit system.  I would argue that the Skyway could be a valuable and viable part of a larger system that serves the community at large.

I don't think tearing it down would be wise at this point.

See my comment above about the 90% OFF projections being based on the CURRENT system, not one being proposed here.  Advocating for the $ky-high-way with the wrong FACTS is why we have this fiscal fiasco to begin with.  You are just perpetuating the problem with your fallacious arguments.

You missed my point on serving the community at large and failed to address my own comments about its value if it were interconnected.  It will NEVER serve the community at large because, even with interconnections, it is not user friendly, cost effective, the best option, etc. and won't be adopted in our life times by the community at large because most add this up as a USELESS adventure.  Thus, the community at large will not support it.  Don't believe me?  Watch the outcry when someone in authority proposes expanding it.

Quote from: Shwaz on July 22, 2009, 09:31:49 AM
Isn't it a fact that if we were to tear it down we would owe the feds back all the money?! That'll get us a fast track to mass transit   ::)

"Elevated and intimidating architecture"   :-\ You're really reaching now :D

I asked before for someone to post the source and details of the alleged federal payback.  Still waiting to see this information.  If true:  First, even the Feds don't expect something to last forever so there has to be a depreciation schedule.  Second, this was an "experiment" that has failed in three cities, so surely we could beg the Feds to forgive any such rules today.  Why should we be subjected to continued failure at our local expense?

"Elevated and intimidating" - Well, unless you can't see, it's clearly elevated.  "Intimidating" is my association with something that is ugly, imposing, cold (as in concrete), and unfriendly.  I would imagine many architects and lay people would find this an apt description.  I guess you find it "warm and fuzzy"?  OK with me.  To each their own.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2009, 09:56:50 AM
About as successful as I-95 without the Fuller Warren Bridge or I-295 without the Buckman.

Not quite so fast Lake.  Again, the $Ky-high-way is presently built as what was deemed to be a "complete" and "self sustaining" system in its CURRENT CONFIGURATION.  Maybe there was a wish for a future expansion, but it wasn't deemed necessary to build what is there now.  By the way, countless roads in Jax have been well utilized before being expanded and/or interconnected.  In fact, heavy use is the biggest reason given for more roads.  Can't say that about the $ky-high-way.  (See today's article posted above.)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 22, 2009, 10:38:40 AM
Every Penny would have to be refunded, not only that, but according to UTU and other Union Contracts every employee would have to be protected. I'm not sure the employment but from Lake and I walking through the center I'd say 10 to 15 professionals, electricians, mechanics, linemen, car cleaners etc. stjr would say they could be redeployed as bus drivers or some such but imagine your boss telling you this morning, "Hey, your gonna love your new job!" Factually they COULD be redeployed on a light rail system, IF we had a light rail system. Pretty much the same creature, wanna know what a real streetcar sounds like? Listen to the Skyway and add a whistle and bell.

Ock, per my comments above, still waiting to see the source and details on this Fed agreement for payback.  The protection of jobs, if true as well, would further support critics of our public servants being poor fiduciaries of the public's money.  This is ridiculous.  Even GM union workers lose their jobs when the plant closes for good.  No sympathy from my quarters.

QuoteYour point about missing the target area's or passenger producer locations is very well taken. The worst part about the Skyway story is we didn't half finish the job, considering the infrastructure, we finished 7/8 Th's of the system, then quit.
I know that Amtrak is VERY IMPRESSED with the Skyway, and in fact it, plus a streetcar might beat out the dazzle of Orlando for the Florida Terminal. They are jazzed about a City with a fixed transit system right to the door of the depot and have asked us to finish it, (stjr, Lake and I were in the meeting and both heard the reviews).

Ock, again, it's a COMPLETE system as built.  That doesn't mean expansion couldn't be considered, but it wasn't supposed to be necessary to support what already exists.  Remember, the projects are off over 90% AFTER 20 years of trying to reach them for the EXISTING system.

Quote"Comprehensive System," pretty much sums up what I am speaking of. Friends? Did you know that "I" am the consultant we are speaking about? Retired (or just plain tired), I was in on this war from the start. Did you know what I told the City back in 1980? I told them this whole idea was insane, and all they were going to do is waste a ton of money and get a turkey for mass transit. In this case I don't like to be right so I am spending what energy I have left on earth, trying to fix someone else's screw up. I'm not trying to sound like Robin Hood, more like a barefoot consultant that wants to give my city the best transit system in the South. On a positive note, JTA is listening to all of us.

Ock, we AGREE.  You were 100% right 20 years ago.  No need to second guess yourself today.  Your original position about this being "insane" has been VINDICATED beyond anyone's wildest dreams.  Quit while your are ahead (even though the taxpayers are behind  :) ).  Can't always save the world and right every wrong.  Let's work together on something more worthwhile.  The list is long and the benefits far greater.

QuoteThe best that I can redesign it is still only about 1/2 the original concept. In the early plans a huge circle went around downtown. The downtown circle was something like BAY - Main - Duval - Broad, and from that circle where 4 or 5 tap lines that reached into the hoods. There was even an incredible, signature skyway bridge over the river at about the location of the Landings courtyard. Consider that all we can do as a city is try and fix the shortsighted mistakes of past administrations all of which have taken the approach of HANDS OFF - IT WILL JUST GO AWAY GIVEN 2,000 to 3,000 years time. Today we can't even get the TU or local news to carry a story of how it "might just work."

As far as original ridership estimates go, the Skyway was all over the board. They even claimed thousands of daily riders for the fist few thousand feet. Talk about over baking the numbers! But they had this idea everyone would park down at Jacksonville Terminal and Jefferson Street and ride the "Disney" to Sears, Iveys, Furchgotts, Rosenblooms, Learners, etc. The comedy was by the time it was funded and built, there were no retails places left to go to.

Ock, again "we" listened unquestioningly to the the EXPERT CONSULTANTS.  If they couldn't properly project things before, what makes you think they are any better now?  Systems all over the country regularly fall far short of EXPERT traffic projections.  They are motivated by fees, as I see it, not giving the best answer.  It's just the corruption of money.  We can't fix it.

You can't get attention for expansion because, as I have said repeatedly, this community DOES NOT WANT the $ky-high-way.  Next to the Courthouse, the $ky-high-way is a community JOKE - an example of being sucker punched, fooled, and folly.  Sorry, you and so many others can't stand back and see that.

QuoteYou all have made excellent points:

1. Abandonment would REALLY cost us.
2. Finishing it would probably be much cheaper.
3. If abandoned the feds would likely never fund a transit project in Jacksonville again.
4. It is not a transit system, rather, it is part of a transit system and should function as such.

Points made, but not supported, proven, or substantiated.  Mostly, made in defiance of COMMON SENSE.

QuoteIn the bigger picture, the Skyway would represent the express line in downtown. Certainly it's speed and over the traffic construction would make it quicker then ANY bus or streetcar. Meanwhile the streetcars would be slower in town and become faster once beyond the core. Ditto the BRT or Bus system. It would offer a critical choice and station stops could be programed to make it the fastest thing in downtown.

Ock, we don't need an EXPRESS line Downtown.  Heck, you can walk from one end to the other in a 15 or 20 minutes, far shorter than waiting for and riding the $ky-high-way.  Certainly, not worth spending millions to take a couple of minutes off a short walk or street car/bus/trolley ride.  These other transits Downtown might be slower, perhaps (depends on distance and route), because they would stop in far more places making it far more flexible and convenient.  The real EXPRESS would be rail mass transit to the suburbs.  

Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2009, 10:21:03 PM

Quote from: stjr on July 22, 2009, 09:28:14 PM
JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

LOL, you may be right.  Ridership will continue to decrease.  I will say to JTA, if the goal is to kill it, go ahead and get it over with.  No need to drag things out.

Lake, thanks for owning up to this.  This has been my point consistently.  It's beyond saving - resource-wise or politically.  Fortunately, we can move on with far better options and the sooner we focus on them, the better.  Stimulus money awaits us!

Rewrite history, wow you went out on that one thanks anyway though. And yes lets move on, lets see what JTA and city has in store for us. Cant wait.

Quote from: stjr on July 22, 2009, 10:59:27 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2009, 10:21:03 PM

Quote from: stjr on July 22, 2009, 09:28:14 PM
JTA is getting smarter by the day.  Literally!  This day is now Saturday, being added to Sunday, with no $ky-high-way service due to LOW RIDERSHIP.  This disaster is growing not under our feet but over our heads!  Time to face the music, $ky-high-way defenders, it's fading away.  Weekdays are next.

LOL, you may be right.  Ridership will continue to decrease.  I will say to JTA, if the goal is to kill it, go ahead and get it over with.  No need to drag things out.

Lake, thanks for owning up to this.  This has been my point consistently.  It's beyond saving - resource-wise or politically.  Fortunately, we can move on with far better options and the sooner we focus on them, the better.  Stimulus money awaits us!

I still believe it can be improved, I'm just not so sure those in charge of it can get it done.  It just seems like every move being made, makes a bad situation worse.

KUDOs to the JTA on the idea of mini neighborhood buses/shuttles.  This thought has occurred to me before.  I think this could prove to be a strong feeder into the longer intra-city runs and acclimate locals to using the buses and other mass transit.  I hope they run them with frequent and rational schedules and routes to help insure their success.  Can we say "Downtown trolleys gone wild!"?  :D

Best JTA idea in a very long time, IMHO.

Mini buses and shuttles to neighborhood, yeah right. We will see. Thank god I have a car.

We haven't ran an article on it as this news is about a year old. Lake and I were in on the planning and meetings for this new effort. Actually it is nothing more then true community bus service which will be based on the venues in each distinct neighborhood or section of town. Your bus will go to YOUR Wal-Mart, your Walgreen's or CVS, your doctor, your church, your ball park etc. It will also connect with the regular buses for cross town trips. When fully deployed, it should be a very nice system of jitney shuttles and trunk lines. With the big buses no longer having to run serpentine long crazy routes through every neighborhood, we can close headways, streamline routes, and make the whole cross town thing much, much, faster. I certainly give JTA high marks for boldly stepping out into this new concept.

OCKLAWAHA

My reply from another article:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5610.msg88002.html#msg88002

QuoteMarinating this creates an idea to increase the proposed Skyway extension to go all the way to the Publix in Riverside, build a station on top of the Publix building etc. That will make grocery shopping so much easier for a lot of people in Springfield, Downtown and San Marco. It will also increase shopper traffic between the Riverside Arts Market and Five Points.

stjr's Reply:

Quote from: stjr on July 27, 2009, 08:55:43 PMHow many people do you think would carry arm loads of heavy grocery bags to an elevated platform, cram into a "bus" ride for 15 to 25 minutes (with stops) across town with the bags smooshed in their lap, elbow their way out of the "bus", ride the escalator down, and walk several blocks or more to their homes?  And, by now, their ice cream is melted, the frozen food is half thawed, the condensation in the heat has soaked through the paper bags, and the rider is exhausted.

When a family shops together and enough for a week's worth of groceries, it can easily fit in back packs. That takes the load off one's arms. Escalators help in not having to climb while carrying heavy bags. I have seen folding carts all over Washington DC that people stow away their groceries into and walk several blocks. I carry an insulated bag to the grocery store with a reusable ice pack in it for the ice cream and meat. The return journey from Publix is around 30 mins with stops along the way on my bike and I dont live in a very walkable part of town.  http://www.sheksfootprint.com/archives/262

Moreover, with news such as this it is about time people started getting exhausted performing every day errands.
http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2009/07/florida_children_just_keep_get.php 3
It will become second nature after doing it for a few weeks.

Quote from: stjr on July 27, 2009, 08:55:43 PMDespite its success to date and its connection to the Riverwalk, so few people care to ride the $ky-high-way to access the riverwalk a block or two from some of its stations, that JTA just eliminated Saturday service.

Since the stretch of Riverwalk to get to RAM from the existing Skyway stations is long, it is not a very popular route to walk to RAM. A bicycle would complement the stretch of commute from the closest Skyway station to RAM but they don't allow bikes on board. Therefore, few people care to ride the Skyway to the RAM. RAM has no effect on the ridership of Skyway on Saturdays because it is an inefficient mode.

There is a couple who ride their bikes from the south bank to the RAM and have been unable to convince their neighbors to do the same. I know because I have parked their bikes for them. Their neighbors probably drive. Having a Skyway station closer to RAM and extending out to a place of shopping, namely Five Points, will definitely make riding the Skyway on Saturdays very popular.

(http://www.tripandom.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/sydney-monorail.gif)
Sydney AU

stjr, your constant negative campaign against the Skyway starts turning personal when you lump all transit consultants, planners and even dreamers into an evil empire of money grabbing thieves. "Unsupported" numbers or attention to details:

QuoteOck, again "we" listened unquestioningly to the the EXPERT CONSULTANTS.  If they couldn't properly project things before, what makes you think they are any better now?  Systems all over the country regularly fall far short of EXPERT traffic projections.  They are motivated by fees, as I see it, not giving the best answer.  It's just the corruption of money.  We can't fix it.

(http://picturesofmoscow.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/moscow-monorail-vagon.jpg)
Moscow Russia

Might as well say, if we abandon the thing, or quit before build-out, then WE are guilty of sending a spread of torpedo's through the Skyway, fore, aft and midships. For example, how many knew that Baptist, Shands and St. Vincents, were all rabid supporters of the Skyway. They designed a special train (2 cars?) to move patients with severe medical problems between the hospital centers.

There was a time when I went face to face against every Skyway proponent, but after $200 Million dollars, I can see the folly of taking it down. It would cost us just as much (ballpark) to rip it down as it would to extend it to San Marco, Stadium, Riverside and Shands. All of these destinations would be just a short extension from what we have today. No transit system can travel from Nothing to Something and survive. We must have traffic producers. I would go right back into the battle against the darn thing IF we started talking about Airport, NAS/Yukon, Orange Park, Mandarin, expansion. So considering it is here to stay what can we as concerned citizens and retired transportation consultant do to fix it, with the least expense. Taking it down would also put us on the FTA's shortlist for Federal Funding refusals.

I'm not even sure we need double track on the extensions, and we certainly don't need a bridge deck, concrete walled people-mover track with a monorail on top of it. What would the travel time be between Brooklyn Station and Riverside at Blue Cross? Round trip would take what? 8-9 minutes? With a train of 4-6 cars, 10 minute headways on the single tracked expansions would work wonders.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 28, 2009, 11:18:03 AM
stjr, your constant negative campaign against the Skyway starts turning personal when you lump all transit consultants, planners and even dreamers into an evil empire of money grabbing thieves. "Unsupported" numbers or attention to details:

Ock, most professions have developed stereotypical impressions, fairly or unfairly, based on an accumulation of notable and/or notorious events, characterizations, or incidents.  It's not right to use the term "going postal" but it's used.  Lawyers have more biting jokes about their profession than any other probably.  Accountants are thought to wear "green eye shades" and computer jocks are portrayed as "geeks" with pencil holders in their shirt pockets.

As a professional, one needs to develop a thick skin and stay focused on the job without falling for distracting disparagements that would affect mere mortals doing said job. That's one quality that makes one a professional within a given occupation.

That said, every profession has its better and not so good practitioners.  Transit consultants, planners, etc. are no different.  No doubt there are plenty of standouts in the profession but there are also those that will stoop for the lowest dollar.

I believe, based on my observations, that consultants who prepare traffic studies for government projects generally do a poor job of coming up with anything close to accurate projections (incompetence, uninformed assumptions, poor sourcing or misinterpretation of data, or, gasp!, a strong desire to satisfy the preconceived conclusions made by their repeat fee-paying clients who thrive on the building of the project they are trying to justify).  How many public projects are canceled by the results of a consultant's report? Nothing personal, just my beliefs.  90% discrepancies after 20 years fan my flames.

As I said before, my campaign about the $ky-high-way is actually quite POSITIVE for our community, especially in the eyes of most citizens of Jax that view it as the fiasco it has become.  Its only fair to characterize the proponents then as being NEGATIVE to the position of our suggestions to improve mass transit in Jax.  See, its all in the eye of the beholder.  P.S. Calling my comments "negative" could be deemed to be personal, you know.  No worry, I am a "professional" basher of this project so I can handle it.  :)

QuoteMight as well say, if we abandon the thing, or quit before build-out, then WE are guilty of sending a spread of torpedo's through the Skyway, fore, aft and midships. For example, how many knew that Baptist, Shands and St. Vincents, were all rabid supporters of the Skyway. They designed a special train (2 cars?) to move patients with severe medical problems between the hospital centers.

If I were a hospital getting a "free" multimillion dollar "patient transporter" to my door, why wouldn't I support it.  No sweat off my back if it fails.  This support mirrors people here who also want a "transporter" to their door without concern for costs per ride to the taxpayers.  Such "un-invested" commitments aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

How were these patients going to be transported to the $ky-high-way for the "ride of their life"?  Was the $ky-high-way supposed to zoom through the emergency room to get these patients?  And, really, how many patients would be transported this way?  And, at what ridiculous cost per ride?  This is a real BIG stretch to justify the $ky-high-way.  Not surprised this didn't get past even the most optimistic supporters at the time.

QuoteThere was a time when I went face to face against every Skyway proponent, but after $200 Million dollars, I can see the folly of taking it down. It would cost us just as much (ballpark) to rip it down as it would to extend it to San Marco, Stadium, Riverside and Shands. All of these destinations would be just a short extension from what we have today. No transit system can travel from Nothing to Something and survive. We must have traffic producers. I would go right back into the battle against the darn thing IF we started talking about Airport, NAS/Yukon, Orange Park, Mandarin, expansion. So considering it is here to stay what can we as concerned citizens and retired transportation consultant do to fix it, with the least expense. Taking it down would also put us on the FTA's shortlist for Federal Funding refusals.

Ock, I "feel your pain".  Once again, it may (or maybe not) cost as much to expand it as to tear it down (this is a hard assumption for me to accept without detailed proof), but, if so, it doesn't cost taxpayers anything to OPERATE it once its torn down whereas it drains us indefinitely if its expanded.  That would be OK too if it was the best of all options, but it simply isn't.  Let's subsidize something that is far more effective in delivering mass transit.

Even though the system is primarily elevated at present, how about making it "ground level" after leaving downtown/urban core; I know what y'all are thinking...what purpose does that serve?  Well, everyone's complaining that the Skyway is basically a failure and it should have been maybe a rail system at ground level.  Maybe making it ground level after leaving the urban core would make it more appealing and accessible to the public. Though ridership is low downtown if we brought it "down to earth" so to speak, maybe people would be more apt to ride it.

Listen people...the thing is built and exists.  I agree with Ock in that if we tear it down, that will be viewed in a negative vain and as wasting money (which it would be), in which we probably would not be granted any money in the foreseeable future for any other projects similar to the skyway; so the smart thing to do, as we used to say in the Navy, is make smart and sensible use of available resources though they may be outdated or austere.

Heights Unknown

You can't make the skyway ground level. Monorails have to be grade-separated because they have a big concrete "rail" that can't be crossed by cars or even pedestrians. Go ride the skyway and take a look out the windows. You'll quickly see why it can't be done.

What you could do is rip out the monorail and install streetcar tracks on the oversized skyway infrastructure. They you could take it to ground level after leaving downtown.

But even then, it might be just as expensive to retrofit the skyway tracks and stations as it would be to just demolish the thing and replace all of it with downtown streetcars. Much to stjr's dismay, we'd have to hire consultants to figure that out.

QuoteOck, I "feel your pain".  Once again, it may (or maybe not) cost as much to expand it as to tear it down (this is a hard assumption for me to accept without detailed proof), but, if so, it doesn't cost taxpayers anything to OPERATE it once its torn down whereas it drains us indefinitely if its expanded.  That would be OK too if it was the best of all options, but it simply isn't.  Let's subsidize something that is far more effective in delivering mass transit.

So say we decide that we are going to spend X millions of dollars and tear down the Skyway.  If we do this we have just spent money to eliminate a mode of transit that could be a viable component of a comprehensive transit system.  I think everyone here agrees that the Skyway, in its current state, is not a viable form of transit.  However, if money were spent to expand it could have a positive impact on our City and transportation system as a whole.

QuoteI believe, based on my observations, that consultants who prepare traffic studies for government projects generally do a poor job of coming up with anything close to accurate projections

Feel free to list any traffic studies that you have "observed" that would support your theory.  You state that the projections that the consultants came up with for the Skyway were inaccurate however, those numbers were based on a larger, built-out system.  The current Skyway does not reflect this system.

I think a Riverside leg will double ridership.  Thanks to the development of the Strand, Peninsula, San Marco Place, the system now makes sense for a few people to use it to go to and from downtown.  I have a friend who uses it whenever possible, but it's still faster for him to walk from the Peninsula to the Landing.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 29, 2009, 09:31:34 AM
II have a friend who uses it whenever possible, but it's still faster for him to walk from the Peninsula to the Landing.

How is that possible? I don't think there's anyway one could walk from the Peninsula to the LAnding faster that the Skyway can take him there - especially considering you have Skyway Station basically across the street.  I'll take the air conditioned elevated train ride with a great view over walking in the heat anyday.

Not right now. You have to use the Kings Ave Station due to the Fire at the station closest to those condos.  The skyway dumps you 3 blocks from the Landing anyway.  For Hemming Plaza, the Skyway can't be beat.  I'm sure if there was ever programming at the Prime Osborn that interested me, it would be ideal for this too.  Half the fun of Artwalk every month is the skyway trip to and from (IMO).

Quote from: cline on July 29, 2009, 09:29:43 AM
You state that the projections that the consultants came up with for the Skyway were inaccurate however, those numbers were based on a larger, built-out system.  The current Skyway does not reflect this system.

Sorry, not so, Cline.  The projections I am referring to were for what is built NOW.  I don't understand why proponents keep saying it was for a larger system.  I have posted the info before on MJ $ky-high-way threads.  This is what I mean when I say proponents like to rewrite the $ky-high-way's history.  Relying on inaccurate info just undermines further the credibility of $ky-high-way "pro" positions.

P.S. I think its safe to say that all three "people mover" systems built  (Jax, Miami, and Detroit) have failed to live up to the projections made for them when built.  That, alone, would be a 100% failure rate by their transit consultants.  I don't have time at the moment, but I don't think I will need to look far to find other transit projects that failed to generate the traffic projected.  Likewise, I am sure there will be some that exceeded expectations, but I am suggesting they will be outnumbered  by those that didn't.

Quote from: Joe on July 29, 2009, 09:27:55 AM
You can't make the skyway ground level. Monorails have to be grade-separated because they have a big concrete "rail" that can't be crossed by cars or even pedestrians. Go ride the skyway and take a look out the windows. You'll quickly see why it can't be done.

Perhaps ground level will not work, but placing it about 10 feet above ground level should be cheaper than having it 50 feet in the air.  This should also enable the skyway to pass underneath freeway bridges.

10 feet?? Should we just divert all UPS/ FEDEX/ Trash/ Food/ Fire/ and construction vehicles around downtown?  I think the height it's at will have to be where it stays.
I think the majority of the cost isn't in the height of the support columns, but the degree to which the track is overbuilt.  A more streamlined track would do wonders to reduce cost. 
I didn't realize this until a couple weeks ago, but the height of the track increases significantly to go over the I-95 to Main Street Bridge approach.  This section of road is lower than most raised roadways around downtown, but I thought this was interesting to see.

^ I think the bottom of the infrastructure needs to be at minimum 14 feet tall when crossing over a road. Might even be taller than that. It's going to depend on the state of Florida. Jax has no say in the matter.

I figured that was the case, I just didn't know the minimum height.  The skyway most likely wouldn't be able to go over any other raised road sections in the area, but i just thought that this section and the section where it goes under the Acosta bridge ramps set a precedent for future situations when adjusting track heights will be necessary.

This situation is like purchasing the most expensive fishing rod in the store and then being too cheap to get bait to make a catch. Sort of like buying a yacht, but refusing to gas it up.

The river crossing, automated operations center and changing the transit technology are the Skyway's largest expenses.  Extending lines a few hundred feet to a mile won't cost nearly as much as the original expense.  However, until the system is streamlined and integrated into the rest of the city's transportation network, it will fail to attract decent ridership.

BINGO lakelander

Ocklawaha

Here are some numbers I've dug up on the Skyway's costs as compared to other transit systems.

QuoteHere are some numbers for you..



The following capital and construction cost data in Table 1 have been drawn from such sources. For consistency, all data have been escalated to year 2002 dollars using CPI data from the US Department of Commerce, thus enabling a fair comparison of per-mile costs for systems built in widely different years.


Table 1.
Urban Monorails:
System Installation Cost
Cost per Mile ($ Millions, 2002)

Chiba (Japan): Monorail (extension)



128.2



Jacksonville: Skyway (new)



81.1



Kitakyushu (Japan): Monorail (new)



205.9



Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) (new)



58.2



Las Vegas (LVMC Project, new)



166.7



Newark: Monorail AGT (new)



223.1



Okinawa (Japan): Monorail (new)



103.9



Average



138.2








[Sources: Capital Metro, Rapid Transit Project, ADraft B Milestone 2 Executive Summary: Urban Transit Vehicles@, 1 October 2001; Steve Arrington, Jacksonville Transportation Authority, 12 October 2001; Leroy Demery, Jr., May 2002; Monorail Malaysia, news release, 23 April 2001; Jacob Snow, AThe Las Vegas Monorail@, Monorail Society website, 2002/11/02. Calculations by LRP]
Capital costs of recent LRT projects, again, drawn from actual project experiences, are listed in Table 2.



Table 2.
Light Rail Transit (LRT)
System Installation Cost
Cost per Mile ($ Millions, 2002)

Surface - Minimum Civil Works
Baltimore: Central Line Phase 1 (new)



20.0



Baltimore: Central Line/3 (ext.)



17.4



Denver: RTD Central (new)



25.9



Denver: RTD Southwest (ext.)



21.5



Portland: MAX Eastside line (new)



28.3



Sacramento: RTD starter line (new)



13.1



Sacramento: RTD Mather (ext.)



16.4



Saint Louis MetroLink SW Illinois (ext.)



19.4



Salt Lake City: UTA starter line (new)



22.8



San Diego: Trolley Blue Line (ext.)



33.2



San Diego: Trolley Orange Line (ext.)



24.9



San Jose: VTA Guadalupe corridor (new)



27.8



San Jose: VTA Tasman corridor (ext.)



46.5



Average



24.4








Extensive Civil Works

Dallas: DART S & W Oak Cliff



33.2



Dallas: DART - North to Park Ln



62.2



Los Angeles: MTA Blue Line



46.1



Los Angeles: MTA Green Line



52.1



Portland: MAX Westside line



60.2



St. Louis: Metrolink (new start)



37.2



Average



48.5








[Sources: Capital Metro Rapid Transit Project, ADraft B Milestone 2 Executive Summary: Urban Transit Vehicles@, 1 October 2001; converted to 2002 dollars by LRP]

Source: http://www.lightrailnow.org/myths/m_monorail001.htm

Cost information from the Library of Congress dated 1997:

QuoteJacksonville automated skyway express extension project.--The Committee recommends $15,300,000 to complete the Jacksonville automated skyway express. The Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) is developing a 0.3 mile extension of the automated skyway express south of downtown Jacksonville, and completion of a maintenance facility. The extension consists of an elevated, double track guideway running from the San Marco to Flagler Station segment, now under construction, through the South Bank business district to the Dupont Station. The final segment totals $25,000,000 for which Congress has appropriated $9,500,000. It is the Committee's understanding that the JTA has contributed $25,000,000 to the Florida Department of Transportation exclusively for the reconstruction of the Fuller Warren Bridge as a condition funding for the Jacksonville ASE.

Source: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp104&sid=cp1045EqlO&refer=&r_n=hr631.104 &item=&sel=TOC_533295&

Assuming the $15.3 million for 0.3 miles I would assume that a 1 mile extension would cost about $50 million. What is everyone else's take? I know they atate that part of the funds are to complete the maintence facility but is that part of the $15.3 or the total $25?

Also note that part of the 2.5 miles was a river crossing which is probably much more expensive than a land route.

$13.1 million/mile for light rail?  We need to take some notes from Sacramento!

Nice find.

Quote from: Jason on July 29, 2009, 04:07:34 PM
The extension consists of an elevated, double track guideway running from the San Marco to Flagler Station segment, now under construction, through the South Bank business district to the Dupont Station.

I'm assuming this was the San Marco to Kings Avenue Station segment?  I may be off base, but from my understanding, this entire 0.3 mile segment cost $25 million.  This cost includes double tracking (so its really 0.6 miles) and three elevated stations, including one (San Marco) that is massive.

My guess is depending the corridor, you could significantly reduce that number.  For example, if extended to Atlantic Blvd (San Marco Square), the end could be single track and dropped to grade, once its over the FEC tracks.  While you could not drop it to grade, the Riverside extension could also be single tracked at the end point. 

Lake, thanks for highlighting the point I have been making all along.  The $ky-high-way represents the most expensive mode by several times over other options for mass transit.  Given that, it PAYS to tear it down and do something far more cost effective.  It's so obvious, I don't understand why I have to work so hard to convince the diehards here.  Maybe your data will finally convince them.  P.S. As an added benefit, we can also get a more convenient, flexible, street friendly, aesthetically pleasing solution with other options.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 29, 2009, 09:47:31 AM
Not right now. You have to use the Kings Ave Station due to the Fire at the station closest to those condos.  The skyway dumps you 3 blocks from the Landing anyway. 

Kings Ave is only a block from the Penisula and the Central Station (the first stop back across the river) is basically across the street from the Landing).
According to teh Chamber/DVI - there's 11,000 workers within a block of the Skyway. If each one used it for lunch once a week (which is not unreasonable as there are plenty of eateries along the route - both sides) - that's nearly 90k trips/month plus an additional $500k in revenue a year.  All with just one trip a week. 

Quote from: stjr on July 29, 2009, 06:25:01 PM
Lake, thanks for highlighting the point I have been making all along.  The $ky-high-way represents the most expensive mode by several times over other options for mass transit. 

Maybe at one time, but not anymore....all of the infrastructure is in place so extensions should be no more than $15 million a mile for construction....a new light rail system would likely cost twice that much for double tracking new corridors....and that's not even counting ROW

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 29, 2009, 08:06:20 PM

Quote from: stjr on July 29, 2009, 06:25:01 PM
Lake, thanks for highlighting the point I have been making all along.  The $ky-high-way represents the most expensive mode by several times over other options for mass transit. 

Maybe at one time, but not anymore....all of the infrastructure is in place so extensions should be no more than $15 million a mile for construction....a new light rail system would likely cost twice that much for double tracking new corridors....and that's not even counting ROW

I see light rail as apples and oranges with the $ky-high-way as light rail would go longer distances into the suburbs.  Also, most extensions of the $ky-high-way would also require the purchase of new ROW as you can't run it down the middle of most streets!  Did you add that cost into your extensions?

Street cars and trolleys aren't only cheaper, they can run more places (increasing convenience) and down existing ROW since they stay within existing streets in most cases.  They are much more approachable, inviting, and pleasing to view not to mention more cost effective.  As to double tracking, unlike the $ky-high-way, you could run return pathways down different streets doubling the exposure of the transit system.  Question:  Since the $ky-high-way was built, how many cities have added and/or expanded their street cars and trolleys versus the three same old cities living with their albatross people movers?

Its pretty obvious, at least to some of us, where we should spend our LIMITED dollars for the future.

Looks like Miami expanded there's around there new Carnival Center and I dont see them taking theres down.

not quite....the extyension into brooklyn already has the ROW...and a shot extension to Atlantic Blvd in San Marco would require very little.

And who says the skyway can't go within the street ROW....have you seen Bay or Hogan streets....and cities like NY, Philly, and Chicago run elevated trains down streets.

Now I won't argue that streetcars would be better and likely less expensive....but you said the Skyway is the most expensive system that could be buit, and that's simply not true.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 29, 2009, 08:53:59 PM
Now I won't argue that streetcars would be better and likely less expensive....but you said the Skyway is the most expensive system that could be buit, and that's simply not true.

Tufsu, I don't mean to quibble - we already do enough of that - but I do want to clarify that what I was trying to convey was that the $ky-high-way was several times the cost of competing options, not the most expensive system that could be built.  I am sure someone could easily conceive of something even more expensive or has already done so (a la Boston's Big Dig?).  God bless those taxypayers  ;D !

The numbers do speak for themselves StJr.  You're right.  But we're not talking about a new system from scratch.  What we're talking about are simple extensions that would almost certainly make the skyway a viable mode of transportation throughout the core.  And it wouldn't cost nearly as much as the original system did because the big money work is already done (ie, river crossing, control center, maintenance building, main lines).

Yes, you can build streetcar lines for less money than an elevated monorail system, but the skyway is already here and to start over would be a waste of what can certainly be a viable system.  Furthermore, it doesn't cost any more to run the skyway than it does to run an LRT system or even streetcars.

Still, as many of us have been saying all along, the skyway expansions should come after some sort of commuter system is implemented to feed riders into the skyway.  Without the suburban connection it will never live up to its full potential.

stjr, if we were to tear down the skyway as you seem to want, what is your solution for connecting the North and South banks?  You can't have streetcars on the Main Street Bridge, and I don't think the Acosta would work because of it's steep grades and its expressway ramps.  The Fuller is out because it is an interstate, so what is your solution?  It seems to me like the already built skyway route seems like the best option for a city split by a river with lots of river traffic.

Quote from: Jason on July 30, 2009, 09:02:52 AM
The numbers do speak for themselves StJr.  You're right.  But we're not talking about a new system from scratch.  What we're talking about are simple extensions that would almost certainly make the skyway a viable mode of transportation throughout the core.  And it wouldn't cost nearly as much as the original system did because the big money work is already done (ie, river crossing, control center, maintenance building, main lines).

Yes, you can build streetcar lines for less money than an elevated monorail system, but the skyway is already here and to start over would be a waste of what can certainly be a viable system.  Furthermore, it doesn't cost any more to run the skyway than it does to run an LRT system or even streetcars.

Still, as many of us have been saying all along, the skyway expansions should come after some sort of commuter system is implemented to feed riders into the skyway.  Without the suburban connection it will never live up to its full potential.

This is sort of a dangerous chicken and egg question. If we built a commuter rail system without the skyway connections, then we run the real risk of failure to distribute the passenger load in the central city, thus killing our ridership. If the Skyway is extended to San Marco first, and Commuter Rail second, then it's in place to take any or all of the commuter ridership to their destinations in town.

While I'm certainly the biggest supporter of Light Rail and Streetcars this city has ever had, I realize they do have some drawbacks when mixing with auto traffic. Traffic jams will effect them just as it can a bus. The best way to implement streetcars is to get them on their own right-of-way even if this means closing a lane or two.

Brainstormer you are correct in getting streetcars over the river is going to be expensive. Once over the river they need to avoid the FEC tracks like the plague, otherwise, they become just one more stalled vehicle waiting for the trains. That really only leaves Prudential Drive to the School Board and hence toward Saint Nicholas, Beach or Atlantic. Grades are usually held to about 6%, but in some cases can reach as high as 12%, their safety record, acceleration and braking power on the grades are superior to buses.  



OCKLAWAHA

Exnews, I'm not going to argue this any further, but from google maps I counted about 7 blocks of walking to use the skyway route I described earlier.  I counted 6-7 blocks of walking to get from the Peninsula to the Landing via the Main Street Bridge.  

I also think that currently the trolley is a much better way to get to and from lunch for office workers.

QuoteThis is sort of a dangerous chicken and egg question. If we built a commuter rail system without the skyway connections, then we run the real risk of failure to distribute the passenger load in the central city, thus killing our ridership. If the Skyway is extended to San Marco first, and Commuter Rail second, then it's in place to take any or all of the commuter ridership to their destinations in town.

Wouldn't Union Station do the same thing to connect the passengers as long as there is a commuter rail stop in San Marco?  The only gap is then the sports district because 5 points and Brooklyn are currently connected by the PCT trolly.  So, build the commuter rail (north/south segment using the S-line including a stop in San Marco) and provide a trolly loop to the sports district.  Then we can work on securing funding for skyway legs to San Marco Square (Atlantic), Shands, and Riverside Brooklyn.

speaking of miami, the skyway at the miami zoo is probably more successful and profitable than ours.

Quote from: brainstormer on July 30, 2009, 09:35:55 AM
stjr, if we were to tear down the skyway as you seem to want, what is your solution for connecting the North and South banks?  You can't have streetcars on the Main Street Bridge, and I don't think the Acosta would work because of it's steep grades and its expressway ramps.  The Fuller is out because it is an interstate, so what is your solution?  It seems to me like the already built skyway route seems like the best option for a city split by a river with lots of river traffic.

I don't know without talking to engineers what requirements a street car would need for crossing the river.  I do know that decades ago, street cars crossed the river over the original Acosta bridge without issue so I don't know why we couldn't consider that solution today (if the grades are too steep, we could use the same cable technology that San Francisco uses for its streetcars - problem solved over 100 years ago!).  I also don't know why the Main Street Bridge couldn't carry them and you don't say why.  If it's because Main Street is a draw bridge, well, so was the old Acosta.

As to crossing FEC tracks, we had a discussion before on this.  I know Ock or Lake objected, but I don't recall being convinced that street cars couldn't cross FEC tracks at grade.

Someday, I would like to see street car loops, for example, as follows:

Downtown (DT) Loop
DT-Brooklyn-5 Points-Riverside-Avondale-Ortega-Lakeshore
DT-San Marco-Hendricks-Emerson-Beach-St. Nicholas
DT-Main Street-Springfield-8th Street/Shands
DT-Beaver-Farmers Market-McDuff
Convention Center-Landing-DT-Arena/Stadium-Eastside/Tallyrand

Crossing the FEC at grade in San Marco with a streetcar?  FEC would need the convincing.  I know the TECO line in Tampa crosses a seldom used CSX line.  Are there any examples out there that cross lines as busy as the FEC, at grade?  If there are, I'd be interested to hear more about their on-time performance and who has first priority....freight or streetcar.

At this point, I still believe investing in a streetcar crossing across the river to access San Marco doesn't make sense.  As you say about the skyway, there are more feasible modes of transit that can provide service to that area.

San Marco is probably best served by a skyway extension and circulator transit (mini-bus, rubber tire trolley, etc.)

It took me forever and a day to convince a good friend of mine to ride the Skyway with me. I used to use it a lot - living on Ashley St., the Hemming Plaza Skyway is only what, 2 blocks away? I used it frequently to ride from there to across the river to the Southbank where I could hit up Charthouse, or that Wine Bar or walk 2 more blocks to BB's and whatnot. Then just like tradition I'd go to Friendship Park and enjoy the skyline and a recap of the evening.

This last time was so embarassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

First of all there were people just busting through the Handicapped access door, which seemed to be broken and weren't ashamed at all to let everyone see that they were breaking into the thing without paying.

Second, the escalator had trash all over it and in the lobby area up top. It was a very uncomfortable 10+ minute wait. The trains are all screwed up and discombobulated, and we had to switch cars twice just to hopefully TRY to get across the water. A fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

Third, the Riverplace Skyway was closed down due to fire, so we had to go to the Kings Avenue station, which was OK but I didn't exactly look like the expert on the system anymore  ;D

Finally, after finding out about the Wine Bar being closed, we went to get BACK on the train, only to find out that the hours of operation had changed, and the Skyway was CLOSED!! 9pm is a joke - seriously, how can you enjoy wine and finger foods in the evening, and in the back of your mind feel like you have to "rush" to get back onto the train before it gets dark?? We ended up walking back over to the Northbank via the Main St. bridge, only to end up at the Landing, once again, on our night where we wanted to try something "different"  >:(

I really would like to work at Baptist Hospital as soon as I get a couple other nursing classes under my belt, but I wouldn't trust the Skyway system, for example, to be able to fully rely on it to take me to the Southbank from Hemming Park for my JOB!!

So, to me, not only did my friend completely hate the Skyway, and it being her first time on it left a very poor impression, but I also was thoroughly dissapointed, because to me, the Skyway meant that even though I live all the way out on Ashley St., I still felt as if I was still somehow connected to the rest of the City.

I'm tempted to bring my own broom and dustpan and clean the shithole myself.

QuoteThis last time was so embarrassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

Imagine how much more money they would lose if they spent what it takes to really keep up the place!

QuoteA fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

I had forgotten this point until you mentioned it.  It seems to me the entire system had to be overhauled when they extended it over the river because new cars and equipment were needed due to switching vendors for the addition at that time.  If they need to do that again in the future, it would be almost like starting all over again.  Ock or Lake, what's up with this?

Quote from: braeburn on July 30, 2009, 09:53:16 PM
It took me forever and a day to convince a good friend of mine to ride the Skyway with me. I used to use it a lot - living on Ashley St., the Hemming Plaza Skyway is only what, 2 blocks away? I used it frequently to ride from there to across the river to the Southbank where I could hit up Charthouse, or that Wine Bar or walk 2 more blocks to BB's and whatnot. Then just like tradition I'd go to Friendship Park and enjoy the skyline and a recap of the evening.

This last time was so embarassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

First of all there were people just busting through the Handicapped access door, which seemed to be broken and weren't ashamed at all to let everyone see that they were breaking into the thing without paying.

Second, the escalator had trash all over it and in the lobby area up top. It was a very uncomfortable 10+ minute wait. The trains are all screwed up and discombobulated, and we had to switch cars twice just to hopefully TRY to get across the water. A fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

Third, the Riverplace Skyway was closed down due to fire, so we had to go to the Kings Avenue station, which was OK but I didn't exactly look like the expert on the system anymore  ;D

Finally, after finding out about the Wine Bar being closed, we went to get BACK on the train, only to find out that the hours of operation had changed, and the Skyway was CLOSED!! 9pm is a joke - seriously, how can you enjoy wine and finger foods in the evening, and in the back of your mind feel like you have to "rush" to get back onto the train before it gets dark?? We ended up walking back over to the Northbank via the Main St. bridge, only to end up at the Landing, once again, on our night where we wanted to try something "different"  >:(

I really would like to work at Baptist Hospital as soon as I get a couple other nursing classes under my belt, but I wouldn't trust the Skyway system, for example, to be able to fully rely on it to take me to the Southbank from Hemming Park for my JOB!!

So, to me, not only did my friend completely hate the Skyway, and it being her first time on it left a very poor impression, but I also was thoroughly dissapointed, because to me, the Skyway meant that even though I live all the way out on Ashley St., I still felt as if I was still somehow connected to the rest of the City.

I'm tempted to bring my own broom and dustpan and clean the shithole myself.

But if its extended to the gator bowl and riverside everything will become magical!!!!

Like I said, there are three major reasons to me why I am thoroughly dissapointed:

1) I wouldn't ever be able to successfully rely on it, whether for "work or leisure" as the damn signs in these cars say.

2) Living and going to school in the NW part of the city, where the FCCJ transit and Hemming Plaza transit are both just two blocks from my condo, it creates a sense of connection to the city even though you are "off the beaten path" so-to-speak. What downtown resident wants to see something like that go straight to hell?

3) The fact that it can't even be taken care of NOW in its current state is appalling - it would be absolutely impossible to convince anyone, let alone a majority, that this "thing" up in the air actually "works" or will begin to work.

The carebear hours for this system are 6 AM - 9 PM during the week, Noon to 7 PM on Saturdays, and closed on Sundays, with the exception of "Special Event Service Only." These hours are very odd and NOT user-friendly to take advantage of everything the city offers.

On top of that, you have to pray that the thing doesn't screw up and make you late for work, or even worse, cause you to miss the last bus leaving the transit station to get your butt home safely that day.

The whole thing is just one big cocktease.

^Expect things to get worse.  JTA plans to eliminate Saturday service, making it less user friendly.

^^ That's what I'm afraid of.

Quote from: stjr on July 31, 2009, 12:38:08 AM

QuoteThis last time was so embarrassing, and a real unpleasant experience. I raved about the skyway and here I am, showing my friend how "fantastic" it is.

Imagine how much more money they would lose if they spent what it takes to really keep up the place!

QuoteA fellow rider commented (not sure at all how reliable this is) that the equipment and the Skyway cars were proprietary, and the company that made them is no longer, so it would be impossible to replace them. In other words, as soon as they're toast, they're toast. I am hoping that is just heresay though.

I had forgotten this point until you mentioned it.  It seems to me the entire system had to be overhauled when they extended it over the river because new cars and equipment were needed due to switching vendors for the addition at that time.  If they need to do that again in the future, it would be almost like starting all over again.  Ock or Lake, what's up with this?

The Skyway is pretty filthy, the elevators smell like baked on urine, a comfortable feeling for the mothers with a baby in the stroller. A solution might be to lease out station space for vendors, keeping the area clean would be a large chunk of the lease.

Why JTA went to pure monorail is something of a mystery. Perhaps they got caught up in the monorail myths, everyone
"knows" that someday monorails will subplant CSX, NS and FEC, and account for 99% of America's travel needs. HA! The damned things have been around even longer then the first commercial rail lines. Laying monorail beams over the whole project dumped another huge chunk of change into the "Skyway Costs". The sad part is they have continued to build the people mover highway, even though all they need is a single beamway. The river crossing is one of the few places where they didn't build a double system. That being the case, one would correctly surmise that we have wasted a ton of money on concrete, thus the true costs have never been reflected.

As for the equipment, NOTHING could be farther from the truth. WE OWN THE RIGHTS TO THESE CARS, and the builder Bombardier is not only alive, they are arguably the worlds leading transit equipment manufacturer. Favors? Does anyone else remember the big building in the Baymeadows area with the words "BOMBARDIER?" It looks like the ship has left the pier leaving us to flounder around looking for excuses as to WHY was it so expensive?  Fare increase, on a system that should be free. Bad maintenance, somebody call a janitor. Cutting weekend service and wiping out late nights is more a case of a City or agency worried about budget more then mobility.  

OCKLAWAHA

I always tell people if Five Points had a Skyway Station I would still be living in Jacksonville FL right now!! To me rail transit is an amenity. Just like Golf courses and NFL Football, cities do not really NEED them, but it is great to have them. I actually found this site by typing "Riverside Skyway Station" in Google and this site was like the 3rd or 4th link. I know everyone on here has there interest and things they like to do. Me personally I am a big NFL fan, and I hated the fact when I lived at the corner of Stockton and Post I had to drive to Bay Street park and then ride a shuttle bus into the Sports Complex...and there were like 2 Skyway Stations right there!! I don't understand how any people of Jacksonville could be against it actually going somewhere. It would actually make the city of Jacksonville a better place to live, especially for those that would like to live car free, like I do. I only use my ride for grocery shopping now. Shopping, Partying and Sporting events I use the train. There are those that like paying car insurance, buying gas, auto repair, defensively dealing with the so many other GREAT drivers on the roads & etc, I am one of the few that do not like doing those things. Its just an option. An option that Jacksonville should create for itself.  8 Stations??? naw thats not going to cut it.

Quote from: stjr on July 30, 2009, 06:39:43 PMAs to crossing FEC tracks, we had a discussion before on this.  I know Ock or Lake objected, but I don't recall being convinced that street cars couldn't cross FEC tracks at grade.

I got caught at the tracks heading from DT to San Marco today. This is why it would be a bad idea. 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/608139912_7xgzh-M.jpg)
One train was bad enough....

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/608139958_guyC2-M.jpg)
Before it passed, another crossed in the opposite direction.

I don't imagine FEC will ever agree to an at-grade streetcar crossing, but if they did, the streetcar would be totally unreliable.  If mass transit can't get you to a certain place at a certain time period, on a regular basis, it will struggle to attract riders and be successful.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/monorail01animation.gif)
There IS a way past those tracks y'all...


This is correct Lakelander. We COULD do something running from somewhere in front of Baptist, straight South into San Marco, and on to San Jose or even Mandarin. We could also cross to the other side and start at Mary Street or Prudential and head straight east into the old JEA land and beyond to Saint Nicholas, Atlantic or Beach. Perhaps a streetcar bridge could be hacked out of the Main Street span by taking it down to two traffic lanes and one or two transit lanes.

Crossing the FEC at the Southbank would be insane. Not only is this a very busy segment of railroad, one that Carry's every single freight car destined for the East Coast of Florida between Jax and West Palm Beach, but it's not a scheduled mainline. This is TRANSFER TRACKAGE, a technical Main Line, but more of an extension of Moncrief, Simpson, West Jax, Beaver Street Interlocking, and Bowden Yards. As the two giant railroads CSX and NS bring in their freight trains from the North and Midwest or West, yard engines go to work pulling off cars that are bound for the FEC. As soon as they get X number of cars, they roll them down to Bowden Yard in the Southside so FEC can build them into trains.  Thus what you get here is very frequent rail traffic moving slowly at Yard Speeds... IT IS THE LAST PLACE YOU WANT A BUS, CAR, STREETCAR, LRT, or anything else.

BTW, the only fatality I have ever found on the old Jacksonville Traction Company was right in the center of this mess and for the same reasons. The South Jacksonville Municipal Railroad (streetcar) crossed the old Acosta, went down Prudential, then Hendricks to Atlantic. At Atlantic there was an East - West route that crossed the FEC running up to Saint Nicholas. The other end was in the center of San Marco Square area, and a third line went far south into San Jose. One early morning with a heavy fog, an FEC engine was pushing freight cars up to the old shipyards (about where the JEA/School Board property is today). The engineer had no visibility, neither did the crossing flagman or the streetcar motorman. A small 4-wheeled birney got T-Boned by the slowly moving freight train. It folded the streetcar around the end of a boxcar and caused a large derailment. A San Marco man, a mechanic going to work, was riding the streetcar and saw the boxcar looming up. The passengers screamed and held on for dear life, as did the motorman. The mechanic dove out the door and tried to get away. He was later found crushed between the rail cars. Light transit vehicles and big freight trains don't play well together, even though they could run on the same track.  

OCKLAWAHA

While I think this addition would be huge for promoting ridership, I think it is much more of a desperate situation for them to extend to the stadium. Being relatively new to town I was perplexed at the lack of activity around the stadium/arena part of town. What an untapped resource if I only had some money! But then it became obvious when I went to my first Jags game and realized the signage/one way roads/parking situation is absurd. Most people wanna get in and out as soon as possible. It needs to be connected to the rest of downtown somehow.

Quote from: geauxtigers31 on August 21, 2009, 08:00:40 PM
While I think this addition would be huge for promoting ridership, I think it is much more of a desperate situation for them to extend to the stadium. Being relatively new to town I was perplexed at the lack of activity around the stadium/arena part of town. What an untapped resource if I only had some money! But then it became obvious when I went to my first Jags game and realized the signage/one way roads/parking situation is absurd. Most people wanna get in and out as soon as possible. It needs to be connected to the rest of downtown somehow.

Welcome to the fight! Glad to have another voice in this battle. Tuesday night at 5:30 - 7:30 in the downtown library on Laura Street the TPO will have a public meeting to discuss the expansion of various transit modes in the city. While the Skyway is more of a downtown distributer it should at least tap the edge of the human residential/commercial world. Streetcars and Commuter Rail could take it from there.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 21, 2009, 09:32:29 PM

Quote from: geauxtigers31 on August 21, 2009, 08:00:40 PM
While I think this addition would be huge for promoting ridership, I think it is much more of a desperate situation for them to extend to the stadium. Being relatively new to town I was perplexed at the lack of activity around the stadium/arena part of town. What an untapped resource if I only had some money! But then it became obvious when I went to my first Jags game and realized the signage/one way roads/parking situation is absurd. Most people wanna get in and out as soon as possible. It needs to be connected to the rest of downtown somehow.

Welcome to the fight! Glad to have another voice in this battle. Tuesday night at 5:30 - 7:30 in the downtown library on Laura Street the TPO will have a public meeting to discuss the expansion of various transit modes in the city. While the Skyway is more of a downtown distributer it should at least tap the edge of the human residential/commercial world. Streetcars and Commuter Rail could take it from there.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, I read geaux as advocating for connecting the stadium area better to Downtown via other forms of connectivity than the $ky-high-way.

As to the $ky-high-way connecting to at least the "edge fo the human residential/commercial world", I find fault two ways here:

(1) It already runs through the heart of Downtown and the Southbank with the City's highest density of offices and a substantial increase in residential and ridership continues to decline relentlessly; and

(2) That "edge" you are referring to around Downtown has been consistently receding for decades.  Most all housing around the stadium, in southern Springfield/Hogans Creek, along the Riverside/Park/Brooklyn areas as well as LaVilla, Myrtle, and West Beaver has been completely obliterated with no substantive replacements on the drawing boards along with the remaining possibility that the existing "edge" might not yet be through receding.

So, really, your approach is to "expand it" and they will build around it.  Yet, in over 20 years this is yet to be demonstrated in any substantial way with the existing complete system. 

I continue to remain very much unconvinced that your dreams for the $ky-high-way are justified.  We need to return back to putting commuter rail, street cars, and buses at the forefront of our solutions and not divert our precious resources to a proven fiasco.

I hear you about the receding residential units in the core area, though I think we have stabilized it somewhat with the addition of Berkman, 11E, Carling, Metropolitan Lofts, Churchwell Lofts, etc.

Two Skyway extensions have made the TPO and JTA studies and the Skyway ranked very high on the citizens opinion on which mode or transit we would like to see first.

There are reasons for the decline in ridership that have nothing to do with it being an elevated monorail system.
Fare increases cut the ridership in half...Dumb move. The track switch west of Central Station needs to be redesigned so trains can shuffle back and forth from a Jefferson-Central-Rosa Parks line, and a Central-San Marco-Kings Avenue line, as it is now that switch is moving all the time and any train from the Southside is getting "held out" for other trains to clear the station...Dumb move II.

Though they are actively planning both the Forrest Street extension as the Riverside Line, and the San Marco-Atlantic Blvd extension, if they can get those designed expidited through the process, we may be enjoying 100% Federal Financing.

The Stadium line isn't in the final cut even though at 20-30 venues per year, it would probably double the annual ridership.

Bottom line to all of our discussions, it isn't going to go away, and IT IS going to be expanded, my only reservation is the Sports District would have to be a place where an elevated train can do the most good. 70,000 football fans are currently parking perhaps 30,000 automobiles down there. How much easier if they could park in San Marco, Jacksonville Terminal or Riverside and ride above the traffic all the way into the stadium.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 21, 2009, 11:51:30 PM
Two Skyway extensions have made the TPO and JTA studies and the Skyway ranked very high on the citizens opinion on which mode or transit we would like to see first....

Bottom line to all of our discussions, it isn't going to go away, and IT IS going to be expanded, my only reservation is the Sports District would have to be a place where an elevated train can do the most good.  Marco, Jacksonville Terminal or Riverside and ride above the traffic all the way into the stadium...

Ock. this is news to me.  I haven't seen nary a mention in the press but I guess they would rather report on the murder of the day than something that could actually impact large segments of our community.  I, for one, would be amazed and disappointed if this actually can be passed through for a third round after its repeated failure to meet even 10% of prior expectations for the existing system.  Once again, we will have an escalated example of a pork barrel project.  If it succeeds in being expanded and then fails once again as I fully expect, I hope you are around for the "I told you so's" I lavish you with.

Ranking high on "citizens opinion" doesn't translate into actual users.  Just as repeatedly demonstrated on the MJ threads, most people are ill or mis-informed about the $ky-high-way, its history of failures and false promises, its politics, who ultimately pays for it, what it costs, and how few people actually will ride it despite any opinions the may proffer to the contrary.  Like here on MJ, most people think its magically something for nothing, don't consider how to spend those same dollars more wisely, and don't compare it to other transit modes.  I would say your survey is not very credible - you can get the public to support anything if you ask the questions right or tell them what they want to hear.  Look how many dictators were elected first before they grabbed power.

JTA is setting itself up to look mighty foolish once again if they promote this boondoggle once more.  The courthouse embarrassment may pale by comparison.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 21, 2009, 11:51:30 PM


Bottom line to all of our discussions, it isn't going to go away, and IT IS going to be expanded, my only reservation is the Sports District would have to be a place where an elevated train can do the most good. 70,000 football fans are currently parking perhaps 30,000 automobiles down there. How much easier if they could park in San Marco, Jacksonville Terminal or Riverside and ride above the traffic all the way into the stadium.  

OCKLAWAHA

Would the Skyway alone be able to accomodate that many people? How long would it take to deliver that many from all the parking lots and garages to a sports venue at the stadium? How about on the way back from a sports venue?

Skyway is a good idea but the execution is lacking since it really goes nowhere! If it had been planned out with some vision or planning to begin with....that would have made all the difference. Looking at the total passanger count, money spent with no return! Trolley system or light rail makes much more sense to connect the downtown core to specific areas. The only thing the skyway system does is not create congestion at street level and that's good with the maze of one way streets, lack of public parking and congestion that currently permeates the core.

Yes the Skyway could handle it. The design with the completed trains (ours are not complete) can handle 30,000 passengers per direction, per hour.

The Skyway will continue to fall into neglect until the FTA antes up to extend it into the ege communities, FCJ, Springfield, Riverside/Brooklyn, San Marco, Stadium. At that point we need full operations 7 days a week.

OCKLAWAHA

to be clear, the TPO is not necessarily recommending Skyway extensions....the two small extensions that are being shon on the maps are for discussion only at this point....the TPO Board will vote on the 2035 Needs Plan in September.

And, even if the projects make the Needs Plan, that doesn't mean they will be funded ion the 2035 Cost Feasible Plan....final adoption of the this plan will occur in November

Assuming TPO approves a set of projects, does it rank them for funding purposes?

In other words, if TPO were to rank commuter rail, street cars, and buses over the $ky-high-way, and there wasn't enough money to go around, would the lower ranking $ky-high-way have to wait last in line for funding?

I am sure we have enough sense in this community (that is certainly not a given!) to spend our money on the best mass transit projects first, not necessarily the ones that JTA is sentimentally attached to because they want to protect their existing jobs and chase their flawed dreams from yesteryear.

I don't understand how our community can cut funding for schools and vital quality of life services and then plan to find tens of millions to waste on the "Pie in the $ky-high-way"!

Tell me it's different funding sources but the fact is it's all our hard earned taxpayer dollars.  I would rather increase my taxes to the COJ and/or school board and reduce my federal taxes in order to reallocate any monies for the Pie in the $ky-high-way to something much more worthwhile, like education, parks, culture, history, environment, police and fire, etc.

The TPO will prioritize projects as part of the Cost Feasible Plan...they will also fund projects in 5-year increments between 2015 and 2035 (projects between 2010 and 2015 are considered committed)....but the reality is this order can (and does) change over time.

All that said, it would not be at all surprising to see the proposed Skyway extension into Brooklyn make the list....since the maintenance center is already there, the project cost would be relaively minimal....and would serve potential/proposed developments like Brooklyn Park and 200 Riverside.

The extension to Atlantic Blvd (San Marco) would be a bit more challenging as it has to go under I-95 and over the FEC tracks....but this would still be a short extension and the expected cost would also not be that high.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 22, 2009, 05:20:10 PM
The TPO will prioritize projects as part of the Cost Feasible Plan...they will also fund projects in 5-year increments between 2015 and 2035 (projects between 2010 and 2015 are considered committed)....but the reality is this order can (and does) change over time.

All that said, it would not be at all surprising to see the proposed Skyway extension into Brooklyn make the list....since the maintenance center is already there, the project cost would be relaively minimal....and would serve potential/proposed developments like Brooklyn Park and 200 Riverside.

The extension to Atlantic Blvd (San Marco) would be a bit more challenging as it has to go under I-95 and over the FEC tracks....but this would still be a short extension and the expected cost would also not be that high.

Thanks, Tufsu.

I guess it amounts to politics as usual.  What makes TPO'ers think that development will follow the $ky-high-way in Brooklyn, and if it does, that it will deliver riders, when nothing of the sort has happened for the existing system in Downtown and San Marco?

And, just how much potential is there really, even if all the development they dreamed of took place?

I am sorry, common sense tells me this doesn't add up and reality proves me right so far.

What's on the side of dreamers?  Nothing but 90% shortfalls by the so called experts, millions of dollars wasted at the Federal, State, AND LOCAL levels, an ugly street killing structure that's a blight on the city, continuously declining ridership regardless of the economy, new development, population growth, OR previous EXPANSIONS, admissions by those who built it that it was a pork barrel project from the beginning that planners always knew would fail, etc.

Approval of more dollars for the Pie in the $ky-high-way will just continue to hold back all other mass transit projects in this community.  Proponents are failing to see they can't have everything they want, they need to pick the very best projects, and move on.  The $ky-high-way clearly isn't close to being a "very best" mass transit project.

Let's say Jacksonville embraces mass transit, that commuter rail, light rail, streetcars and other modes of mass transit come online in 2060. 

Let's dream high-density development, including residential, occurs along Riverside, in Brooklyn, LaVilla and the CBD.  Parking garages now house offices and retail above them and the land currently serving parking lots are then taken to a higher land use.  Bay, Laura and Adams streets create a synergy because of 30,000 residents and an established nighttime district that spans 10 blocks.  Residents have access within 32202 to a grocery store, a movie theater, shopping and at least two restaurants every block.

The 10-95 interchange is complete with Forest being the gateway to downtown.

Would the Skyway still not be a viable means of transport, including expansion?

It seems even the $3.5B Big Dig garners more support than the Skyway.

Quote from: JaxNole on August 22, 2009, 07:07:58 PM
Let's say Jacksonville embraces mass transit, that commuter rail, light rail, streetcars and other modes of mass transit come online in 2060. 

Let's dream high-density development, including residential, occurs along Riverside, in Brooklyn, LaVilla and the CBD.  Parking garages now house offices and retail above them and the land currently serving parking lots are then taken to a higher land use.  Bay, Laura and Adams streets create a synergy because of 30,000 residents and an established nighttime district that spans 10 blocks.  Residents have access within 32202 to a grocery store, a movie theater, shopping and at least two restaurants every block.

The 10-95 interchange is complete with Forest being the gateway to downtown.

Would the Skyway still not be a viable means of transport, including expansion?

It seems even the $3.5B Big Dig garners more support than the Skyway.

Jaxnole, tell you what.  I'll see you back at this thread in 2060 and we can pickup a conversation on the $ky-high-way's future then IF everything you "dream" about comes true.   Until then, let's mothball (my real preference is demolition as I don't think it will ever be a preferred mode versus alternates) the thing and save the operating costs.  Certainly, don't expand it.  So far, none of your "dreams" (which I share) have come close to fruition and nothing at this point seems to indicate when, if ever, they will.  That why I have expanded it's nickname to Pie in the $ky-high-way!  ;D

Geez, why 2060? 50 years? This town changed a helluva lot in the past 2 years. Why go out 50 years?

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 23, 2009, 12:33:05 AM
Geez, why 2060? 50 years? This town changed a helluva lot in the past 2 years. Why go out 50 years?

That was JaxNole's timeline, not mine.  But, he might be right.

In the last 50 years, Jax has done close to nothing in the field of improving mass transit.  Given that the $ky-high-way is worthless and possibly has irreparably harmed the image of mass transit in Jax, all we have to look at is buses.  And, I would venture to say our bus system today is, in proportion to our population and total road trips, a mere shadow of itself 50 years ago.

For the last few years, talk of mass transit has heated up, but, to date, its been nothing except talk.  Not one firm commitment to a single substantive project.  It would be a travesty, should we have the opportunity to actually move forward, to give it to the $ky-high-way and, once again, destroy Jax's mass transit hopes for the next 50 years.

Quotethe last 50 years, Jax has done close to nothing in the field of improving mass transit.

That is a bit strong and to me not true. The JTA express buses are a good idea and JTA is going to spend money on many of the stops. The Riverside Trolley and downtown trolleys are positive and good uses of public busses by the JTA.

They are not perfect and have more flaws that positives, but to say they have not done anything to improve mass transit for 50 years, just is not correct.

I agree, to say they have not done anything is not quite correct! Just enhancements in the wrong direction and at the wrong time. New busses are fine and dandy, but something as mundane as "Bus stops that do not impede traffic" are something else! Half or better of the bus stops just on Bay Meadows stop traffic to load and unload passengers. During rush hours this is quite a stopper for traffic flow and yet nothing has ever been done about or said or discussed. I have noticed the same issue on Beach and Atlantic......once again no vision or plan! City Hall is not the only Agency with issue's as to a vision or even something as mundane as planning!

Reminds me of a sign I saw on the back of a bus - don't remember where, it was a long time ago, "If you were on the bus, you wouldn't be behind the bus!"  :)

In the newer parts (that is, recently rebuilt and widened) of Atlantic and Beach, there are places where buses can pull out of traffic for passengers. My guess is, that in the older sections of these roads, and on Baymeadows, there may not be enough room without getting into private property - which gets expensive in those commercial areas.

Quote from: stjr on August 23, 2009, 12:24:19 AM
Jaxnole, tell you what.  I'll see you back at this thread in 2060 and we can pickup a conversation on the $ky-high-way's future then IF everything you "dream" about comes true.   Until then, let's mothball (my real preference is demolition as I don't think it will ever be a preferred mode versus alternates) the thing and save the operating costs.  Certainly, don't expand it.  So far, none of your "dreams" (which I share) have come close to fruition and nothing at this point seems to indicate when, if ever, they will.  That why I have expanded it's nickname to Pie in the $ky-high-way!  ;D

That's fine with me with one exception: no demo or else my dream absolutely stands no chance.

In the meantime, maybe you could trademark "$ky-high-way".  :)

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 23, 2009, 12:33:05 AM
Geez, why 2060? 50 years? This town changed a helluva lot in the past 2 years. Why go out 50 years?

I think 50 years is reasonable for all everything I mentioned.  Even the Boston T took many years to reach its current scale and it's significantly smaller than NYC's.  We have so much land and the sprawl mentality will take time to become less attractive.

My 50-year pie-in-the-sky scenario includes residential and commercial components on top of existing garages and surface lots serving a higher use.  It also stipulates 30,000 people living in 32202.

With the current way of thinking, one of the most popular that "downtown isn't safe", a radical shift is required for suburbanites to realize there's more crime in their cozy subdivisions.

Am I alone in thinking 50 years is pushing it for everything in my wish list?

Quote from: stjr on August 23, 2009, 12:46:15 AM
For the last few years, talk of mass transit has heated up, but, to date, its been nothing except talk.  [/b]

Do ideas and momentum not offer the potential for progress?  Sure, it could go the other way, but 10 years ago, the collective idea of mass transit was adding more buses to the roads.

Jacksonville is slow and not progressive or forward-thinking in terms of mass transit.  I see the conversations as progress and an opportunity to capitalize on the momentum.

It's actually in writing/print and, maybe this time, these plans won't be shelved.

JaxNole your right to a point! Biggest obstacle is vision and planning from the City side of things. Not to mention being able to fund anything. Everything that I've seen does not indicate there is a user base and right now the traveling public does not use the silly thing! Lack of drastic something or other for sure. Start in nowhere and goes nowhere.....not planned ahead for possible expansion at anytime!

(http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/124886_NwRJf8sAtFNGvUw6JzdYNbXtY.jpg)
Oh My God! Me of all people running to JTA with the damn fire hose?

First, I would submit to all of you that JTA has a fatal flaw in it's structure. JTA should stand for JACKSONVILLE TRANSIT AUTHORITY, and JHA as a new JACKSONVILLE HIGHWAY AUTHORITY. The JTA portion of that equation should be regional in scope, with a diverse board made up of citizen members from all of the MSA counties, INCLUDING Georgia - if and when we pull them in.

Most of you on here are not old enough to remember the roads in this city prior to JTA or worse Consolidation. Let me give you a few examples of our progressive metro...

Blanding - A two lane chip and seal asphalt road ( the kind with the loose gravely crap on it that roars) more patch then pavement.

Collins Road - all patch, no pavement to speak of, used at your own risk.

Bridges on both of the above - narrow wooden bridges.

Edison at Dellwood? - a four way maze of exposed streetcar tracks with the original 1939, pot holes.

Beach Blvd - That nasty pavement again, but we thought it was the biggest road in the world.

Well you get the idea. The bridges were mostly wood except for a few signature bridges such as US 17, Acosta, Main, Grand Avenue. I actually loved the old wooden bridges but they had outlived their era.

As a whole, JTA got a hold on things and started improvements almost from day one. Maybe it was state money? Developers? Maybe it was Jacksonville or JTA doing something right. Your call.

In Transit the bus routes, built largely on the streetcar routes of 1932, were not seriously revised until 1980/85. At that time the concept in bus transit was hub and spokes, and that is what was done here, but we still kept many of the wandering neighborhood routes intact. We also gained the first connections outside of downtown, with an Edgewood and University Blvd, route connecting everything on both sides of the river WITHOUT having to go downtown. Since that time the system has expanded into the 3Rd largest transit system in Florida (even though other MSA's are bigger then us or have more glitter). We dwarf Tampa and Orlando's systems, and come in behind Miami/Dade and Ft. Lauderdale/Broward.

JTA is one of the first systems in Florida to employ large scale use of bus turnout lanes, wherever new construction has allowed it.

JTA was first or among the first systems in the State to employ articulated "super-buses".

JTA went to AIR CONDITIONING as soon as they could replace the City Coach equipment.

JTA was a pioneer in both express and Park and Ride lots in Florida.

When Washington, DC offered to build 3 "FREE" downtown people mover systems in the USA JTA jumped into the contest with a fever. At the time downtown was still the center of most shopping and almost all white collar jobs so it seemed like a perfect fit. We beat out many bigger and richer cities, in fact we trounced several of them... (Kudos to Steve Arrington). Our system was designed to run from Shand's, the Stadium, Riverside and San Marco, as well as connect to the train station downtown. I truly believe that mounting frustration with UMTA (UMTA-Urban Mass Transit Administration, aka:FTA back in the day), on and off funding, and Republican pull the carpet out from anything not gas powered on asphalt mentality caused a revolt in Jacksonville. Something big happened that has never been aired because we went in and converted the system to a more off the shelf BOMBARDIER monorail in 2002. Then the crash of downtown retail, and office space hit, the Skyway flopped. 60 Minutes and ABC were waiting at the door but to JTA's credit no fingers were pointed, they took it as their own and spun it as a learning curve. The FTA on the otherhand issued an official statement "That the Federal Transportation Administration does not and has NEVER supported the Jacksonville Skyway." WOW!
Just change the agency name and wash your hands uncle Sam... good one! Now it's up to Jacksonville to stick our Skyway right up Sam's nether reigons, finish it (the whole original system) with OBAMA funds, for the first time in forever in mass transit we are hearing YES WE CAN!

JTA has worked to keep our equipment up to Federal, State and Local Standards...A few highlights.

The old non-AC Macks were replaced with Flexible "New Look" buses almost immediately.
We also bought a fleet of the "Mod-Sqaud FISHBOWL" buses when that look was in vogue.
The American Motors Corporation (AMC) developed the giant wide window bus that became known as "Rattlers"  (for a window jingle they all had), one of the most comfortable City Buses ever.
We got in on the Grumman Aerospace buses only to find out like the rest of the world that they made much better WWII fighters then they did buses. They all developed cracked "A" frames.
When Autos and such went back to rounded lines we jumped on the new GM buses (some are still around).
JTA bought 3 MCI motor coaches (Greyhound Type Buses), for our express services, very well received with rave reviews from the riders. (time to replace them now = uh? 5 new SILVER EAGLE 15's anyone?)
Lastly we are in on the new Gillig BRT style, with the standard engine and drive package (The grey ones you see everywhere now).

I'm not believing I did that!
(http://www.kitfoster.com/images/2005-8-17_GenlAmericanBusesWeb-Large.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2866119790_6610098b3e.jpg)

(http://www.jacksonville.com/files/editorial/images/additional/108/met_stadiumshuttle.jpg)
Not your fathers bus...

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, one question:  What percentage of our transit trips today are via mass transit (buses, $ky-high-way) versus 30-40 - 50 years ago?

Having modern equipment and revised routes, etc. are great, but the proof is in the pudding.  I think mass transit here is for the purposes of (1) grabbing some easy federal money to boost the local economy, (2) appeasing low income residents that we are "trying" to make their lives better, (3) appeasing mass transit and/or environmental advocates that we are a "progressive" city, and (4) covering the fact that we spend far more resources building roads not mass transit which, bottom line, really isn't a community priority to date.

On this basis, JTA "mass transit" efforts are a huge success.  Unfortunately, they appear to me to be substantively a huge failure because they really haven't increased at all the orientation of our community to mass transit.  I blame this on lack of political will, community commitment, lack of vision, influence of developers who want more roads, poor deployment of resources, under-promotion of the benefits of mass transit (compare JTA's efforts to yours), poor operational execution, lack of leadership, etc.  Add it all up, and we are no more a mass transit city, and probably far less, than we were 50 years ago.

Like I have said before.....lack of vision, lack of planning and now add lack of money! It is really sad the current Administration has blinders or shades on and refuse to take them off!

Ock
If you want to get a bit nostalgic and drive across a couple wooden bridges, take a ride up US301 towards Callahan, turn left on Old Kings Rd, go past the work release camp and then turn right on Acree Rd. Go about 3 1/2 miles and you'll find not one, but two wooden bridges, still in very good shape and used evvry day by the folks who live out that way. They aren't very long and they aren't very tall but they sure are wooden bridges.
John

There is a wooden bridge that my neighborhood uses to get to our homes.  The hurricanes have made it pretty suspect, but it's functional for most sedans and pickups.  It's off of Ortega Farms Rd.

SJTR, your request to Ock got me thinking.  Speaking of percentages, what percent of your posts are against the Skyway??  It seems like you are taking all comers on this issue.

Quote from: stjr on August 24, 2009, 12:39:22 PM
Ock, one question:  What percentage of our transit trips today are via mass transit (buses, $ky-high-way) versus 30-40 - 50 years ago?

Having modern equipment and revised routes, etc. are great, but the proof is in the pudding.  I think mass transit here is for the purposes of (1) grabbing some easy federal money to boost the local economy, (2) appeasing low income residents that we are "trying" to make their lives better, (3) appeasing mass transit and/or environmental advocates that we are a "progressive" city, and (4) covering the fact that we spend far more resources building roads not mass transit which, bottom line, really isn't a community priority to date.

On this basis, JTA "mass transit" efforts are a huge success.  Unfortunately, they appear to me to be substantively a huge failure because they really haven't increased at all the orientation of our community to mass transit.  I blame this on lack of political will, community commitment, lack of vision, influence of developers who want more roads, poor deployment of resources, under-promotion of the benefits of mass transit (compare JTA's efforts to yours), poor operational execution, lack of leadership, etc.  Add it all up, and we are no more a mass transit city, and probably far less, than we were 50 years ago.

City wide it's right at 5%, Cities with transit mix are closer to 15%. Oklahoma City's story is fairly common, when the Oklahoma Railway was discontinued after WWII, and a "modern bus system installed" transit ridership dropped by 97%.

My personal use tells a tale too. Until two years ago, 100% of all of my travel was via mass transit, both in Colombia and in Pompano Beach/Miami, when we moved up here there was no transit service within about 2 miles, Hodges at JTB. Now I'm living by the river damn near Hastings... Be a cold day in hell before we EVER see transit options here, but I COULD park and ride from a St. Augustine or Nocatee Station.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 24, 2009, 04:10:39 PM
SJTR, your request to Ock got me thinking.  Speaking of percentages, what percent of your posts are against the Skyway??  It seems like you are taking all comers on this issue.

Nothing like a healthy debate.  Ock is 100% pro and I am 100% against.  Everyone here has the right to listen and make up their own minds.  That's what these threads are all about and why most of us read and/or participate in them.

My position, as stated, is based on a mix of historical facts, repeated failed promises and expectations provided by "experts", frequent missteps and financial miscalculations, a demonstrated ongoing failure to successfully deliver its intended potential, changing excuses,  a lack of what I call common sense, and the perception that there is nothing out there that will substantially change any of this going forward (including expansions)  - all over a multi-decade period.   Add to this that (1)  we lose money everyday we operate the $ky-high-way that could be used in other mass transit options that are far superior delivery systems for the money and (2) that our community has a demonstrated limitation on resources and politcal will to support mass transit making the $ky-high-way an obstacle to the successful implementation of other superior mass transit projects.

Proponents, with due respect, are continuing to make the same old promises of pots of gold at the end of the rainbow.  Maybe, maybe not.  For me, I remain a nonbeliever since I have heard all this before and can see clearly what is before me now.

Given the history, limitations of resources, and more reliable options for the money, the leap to change my position is too far to make.

To cross the river? HA!

Commuter Rail, on the FEC Bridge only, no other logical way.
Light Rail, A new bridge in the city core and/or the New Matthews bridge or tunnel.
Streetcar, A remote chance to retrofit a lane for streetcar on one of the two downtown bridges but more likely to go the way of Light Rail.
BRT, Take away two traffic lanes or mix in traffic in an HOV lane, completely messing up the Acosta or Main.
Bus, stuck in the same traffic as everyone else.
Hang Gliders, perhaps off the top of the Modis Building.
Pogo Sticks, Main Street Bridge, but stay away from that steel grating in the center!
Skyway, PRICELESS... IT'S DONE!

PS: stjr, Calling me a proponent of the Skyway is like saying Nero was a Baptist Evangelist. As Stephendare, has explained, I just can't see the waste of taking it down or shutting it down when anyone can see it is within striking distance from a different demographic - RESIDENTIAL/RETAIL/FOOD.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock.....at least you have a vision of what could be! I have to agree with you concerning the importance regarding passenger conveyance whatever the type......light rail would be nice and so would a trolley system but we are flogging a dead equine! Until the current Administration wakes up (I would bet every dime I have they won't by the way) and someone puts their foot down and comes up with a plan that is cost effective and productive and people see the light and get behind it.....we are pretty much hung out to dry! Skyway had potential and still may if it were extended to somewhere that was user needed. That type of transportation being elevated above normal traffic lanes would not impact traffic flow at ground level and I think would be better than something ground level wise....but not my call. Till Johnny gets booted out ....nothing is going to change at all!

Well it is pretty much a JAX FACT that nothing will happen till Johnny Goes Marching HOME! But then we have a new crop of boneheads like the recent councilman demanding to know why we operate the Skyway if it costs us $7 Million a year. Never mind that FDOT says our highways cost us from $6,000 - $16,000 a year PER LANE MILE for upkeep. I know, here comes the doomsday predictions, "People use the roads and nobody uses the Skyway!"
So sorry for them but if their automobiles only went from their garage to the stop sign at the end of their streets I bet they wouldn't ride in the damn car either! That's about all we have with the Skyway except a very expensive bridge, and a really deluxe car barn and operations building that COULD handle a system 5 times as big.

Keep up the support, more on this to come.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2009, 11:57:40 PM
So sorry for them but if their automobiles only went from their garage to the stop sign at the end of their streets I bet they wouldn't ride in the damn car either!

....Keep up the support, more on this to come.

I would say the $ky-high-way is more like a clunker that travels the neighborhood (Downtown) but doesn't advance to the adjacent neighborhoods.  The problem isn't that the "clunker" doesn't go to these surrounding neighborhoods, it's that no one wants to use the "clunker" to go anywhere period, not even within the neighborhood it already travels.  So, why empower it to go elsewhere.  Instead, let's find a travel mode that people would really use.

As to "more to come", I hope not.  This is a nightmare story with no ending it seems.  Please, let's awake from this dreaded sleep and live to dream a better dream another day.

I love the skyway just wish it traveled out of downtown....
I pray they extend it...
that's my dream

Either extend it so that it may go somewhere, correct switching problem or shut it down....that's 7 Million dollars to operate something that is under utilized and not very timely. So either take a dump or get off the pot but something even if its wrong. The $kway is a boat anchor and not the rocket intended!

Riverplace Station should be back online before the FL/GA game.  It will cost $450,000 to repair.
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-09-01/story/riverplace_skyway_station_should_open_before_halloween

Just one stop? Not sure if thats a good way to go or not.....$kyway needs to make multiple stops along a route that actually goes somewhere rather than short run that it makes now! If it were connecting to the suburbs from where it starts...say a circle route that would be more conducive to riders  using what right now is under used and not even vaugely close to paying for its self....I mean 7 Million dollars a year for something that has 30  Thousand riders a year?

If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 01, 2009, 07:02:23 AM
If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

I find it interesting that this concept of connecting the $ky-high-way to buses, etc. will enhance the $ky-high-way.

Has anyone considered the alternative view that by doing so, the $ky-high-way will kill the buses, street cars, etc. (like a cancer spreading)?

Who is going to want to ride a bus or street car and transfer to the elevated, inconvenient, inflexible, infrequent $ky-high-way to travel an additional 1 to 3 miles and still have to walk umpteen blocks to your destination when a bus or street car could get you much closer with much greater frequency and user friendliness?

I say even less riders than the number of riders we have now.  Do this and we will kill the bus, street car, and any other connecting transit system along with the $ky-high-way!

Quote from: stjr on September 01, 2009, 09:37:31 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 01, 2009, 07:02:23 AM
If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

I find it interesting that this concept of connecting the $ky-high-way to buses, etc. will enhance the $ky-high-way.

Has anyone considered the alternative view that by doing so, the $ky-high-way will kill the buses, street cars, etc. (like a cancer spreading)?

Well let me explain my method of madness.  Imo, the buses taking a 20 minute loop around downtown, being caught at every light and stopping at several corners in the CBD is already killing them.  What good is an express bus from the beach (a 20 minute ride to downtown) if it takes that rider another 25 minutes to get from FCCJ/Rosa Parks to an office building on the Southbank?

see insane current downtown bus routes here: http://www.jtafla.com/pdf/RouteMap_Jan09pdf.pdf

If you limit the amount of stops most make in downtown (most bus rider's destination points aren't downtown), it would actually make them more user friendly and cut down on operational costs.  To do this, you have to integrate the system with other modes of transit.  Those other modes could be the skyway, PCTs, streetcars or a combination of all of them.  However, I will say this won't work without having a decent transfer system in place.

QuoteWho is going to want to ride a bus or street car and transfer to the elevated, inconvenient, inflexible, infrequent $ky-high-way to travel an additional 1 to 3 miles and still have to walk umpteen blocks to your destination when a bus or street car could get you much closer with much greater frequency and user friendliness?

The closest comparison would be Metrorail and Metromover in Miami.  Metrorail runs from Hialeah to Dadeland and carried 58,800 passengers a weekday in 2007.  This heavy rail system makes two stops in downtown Miami.  The main stop has a direct connection to Metromover, the Skyway's sibling.  In 2007, weekday ridership on Metromover averaged 29,500.  That's a far cry from the Skyway's 1,700.  If you're ever down there during the NBA season, make it a point to watch the number of people who have no problem coming in from the suburbs and transferring to Metromover to get the the Heat's arena.
http://www.miami-dade.gov/transit/library/pdfs/rtr/2007-07_Ridership_Technical_Report.pdf (http://www.miami-dade.gov/transit/library/pdfs/rtr/2007-07_Ridership_Technical_Report.pdf)

Miami rail system map
(http://www.urbanrail.net/am/miam/miami-map.gif)

With any major mass transit system, transfers are a must.  As long as the frequencies between the modes are coordinated (and fare free), transferring is not the problem many make it out to be.

Lake:
i.e. Commuter rail from points South and North feeding into the Union Terminal, thus spilling out into the Skyway (with extensions to Riverside and the Stadium), right? 

With overlap/transfer stations at Kings Ave or Jackson Square for the South leg and (insert place TBD) for the North leg?  Or just a transfer at Union and Jackson Square?  Or something similar?

Commuter rail, I could see feeding suburban riders into Union Terminal (commuter rail, Amtrak, skyway, PCT, streetcar, etc.) with a second commuter rail/skyway connection in the Southbank/San Marco area.  Atlantic Blvd would be a great spot, imo.

QuoteIn 2007, weekday ridership on Metromover averaged 29,500.  That's a far cry from the Skyway's 1,700.

OK, Lake, let's use your example here.  Metromover numbers are based on a CONNECTED and FULLY EXPANDED system in a MUCH LARGER city and it still moves less than 30,000 riders a day.  That is the SAME or LESS than the approximate original estimates for the EXISTING $ky-high-way.  So, if that is the upper limit to our aspirations with an EXPANDED $ky-high-way, how could we ever justify said expansion?  This is just not enough traffic, even allowing for some level of acceptable operating losses, to justify millions for expansion versus street car, commuter rail, or additional bus investments.

Sorry, I just don't understand what proponents are hanging their hats on, other than sheer emotion, to promote expansion or maintenance of the $ky-high-way.  It's an enigma to me.

Well downtown Miami is not the epicenter of South Florida and Metrorail is only 22 miles in length, so its not really serving most of the +5 million people in South Florida.  Nevertheless, in the last few years, ridership has rapidly risen and these systems do appear to be working with one another.  What's going on with the skyway is a completely different story as ridership continues to fall from poor service and a lack of connectivity with the rest of JTA's mass transit network.

You're focusing on the skyway specifically, but my focus is on creating a workable integrated mass transit system that mixes elements of our existing network (ex. buses, PCTs, Skyway) with new features (Amtrak, Commuter Rail, Streetcar).  I'm not making an argument that the skyway will ever make money (transit doesn't).  All I'm saying is with a little common sense it does not have to be the money pit it currently is. 

QuoteSo, if that is the upper limit to our aspirations with an EXPANDED $ky-high-way, how could we ever justify said expansion?  This is just not enough traffic, even allowing for some level of acceptable operating losses, to justify millions for expansion versus street car, commuter rail, or additional bus investments.

Good question.  However, before it can be properly answered, a few more things need to be identified.

1. What is the savings on bus operational costs if the DT loops were eliminated?

2. Would those savings cover increased skyway and PCT usage in the short term?

3. If the skyway were expanded, what would be the average cost per mile and how would that compare to other potential options in areas it already serves or comes close to serving?

Without knowing the answers to some of these questions everything is pure speculation on what ever position one takes.

Lake, thanks for your thoughts.  But, with due respect, they are laced with more of the endless "apologies" for the never-enough systems (not the epicenter, only 22 miles, etc.) and "what ifs", just like Jax, while being held up as a model of what "we could be".  That's having your cake and eating it to.  You are entitled, but that won't convince a skeptic like me.

And, as to your questions, I think common sense gives me the grounds to conclude that there is no way the $ky-high-way can effectively substitute for buses and street cars.  If that was the case, $ky-high-ways would be popping up all over the country.  That sure as heck isn't happening.

Study away, but I expect you to come back to my point on the circle soon enough.  I am just trying to save a few million in studies for the taxpayers.

(http://www.riveroaksapartments.org/BayHogan.jpg)
Finish what we started.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/StreetcarLoungesounyry.jpg)
A very RARE image of a streetcar LOUNGE CAR, complete with restroom, observation platform, bar and velvet seats. Give you one guess which large Southern City had these cars... JACKSONVILLE!

(http://urbancompass.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/pvacr.jpg)
A different view of commuter rail. I told you that I took the DMU up to
80MPH.

The entire JTA system averages about 27,000 daily riders with 60 bus routes! Taking the Skyway up to 5,000-10,000 daily would be a realistic goal.

Lakelander you are right about the mix, great mass transit offers a mix of complimentary modes, transfers and services. The Skyway, PLUS, Streetcar, trolley bus (real ones-NOT the PCT trolleys of today), Light Rail, Water Taxi, Commuter Rail, Bus, hubbed in Jacksonville Terminal plus perhaps 5 seamless interchange points surrounding the downtown core is the way to grow transit in Jacksonville.

We SHOULD finish what we started and get the Skyway to the Stadium, San Marco/Atlantic, Shand's, Riverside. At the end point mini-transit centers (al la Rosa Parks) the Skyway would be ground level for across the platform interchanges. I would replace all of the current PCT trolleys with TROLLEY BUS downtown. Streetcar would serve those downtown destinations that the Skyway can't reach economically, such as Water St., Beaver, Main, Newnan, Duval, Lee, Park, 8Th, Boulevard, Myrtle, etc... LRT would be a function of a Southbank - Beaches system. Regular BRT, diesel bus, and hybrids would then prowl the out lying suburban city. Commuter or Corridor Rail would reach the long distance commutes: Yulee, St. Augustine, Palatka, Gainesville.

As I've repeated over and over, MIX SELLS in transit. The more layers feeding (never competing) eachother the more attractive the spectrum becomes to all walks of life. No longer would the bus, be seen as transit for the poor.  
(http://bc.transport2000.ca/images/TL_2007_NFI_E60LF_2533.jpg)
BRT routes can be made more attractive with a FIXED trolley bus system, TOD'S ANYONE?

(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/cmaqpgs/amaq/hovbus.jpg)
An ecomonically realistic fixed BRT route.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on September 02, 2009, 12:02:17 AM
Lake, thanks for your thoughts.  But, with due respect, they are laced with more of the endless "apologies" for the never-enough systems (not the epicenter, only 22 miles, etc.) and "what ifs", just like Jax, while being held up as a model of what "we could be".  That's having your cake and eating it to.  You are entitled, but that won't convince a skeptic like me.

I'm not trying to convince you by pointing out your view brings up questions and needs to place things in proper context as well.  In any event, none of this really has anything to do with the point I was trying to make.  That point was even in its current state, it does not have to be the money pit it is right now. 

Let's review:

Quote from: thelakelander on September 01, 2009, 07:02:23 AM
If they want to get more use and income out of it, it should be properly integrated with the bus system.  JTA should eliminate the DT bus loops making all riders headed for downtown use the skyway or the PCTs to get in and around the core.  Doing such, would probably cut bus operational costs, increase the skyway's revenue, cut down on bus travel times and make downtown's streets more livable/walkable.

It will be years before a streetcar runs through the streets of Jacksonville.  So it really has nothing to do with skyway integration.  Why not attempt to better integrate our inefficient bus system with it right now?  Will it cost any more than we're already paying?  Could we save money by streamlining the number of buses that currently loop downtown by feeding riders into the skyway and PCTs?

QuoteAnd, as to your questions, I think common sense gives me the grounds to conclude that there is no way the $ky-high-way can effectively substitute for buses and street cars.  If that was the case, $ky-high-ways would be popping up all over the country.  That sure as heck isn't happening.

Since we're talking about making better use with what we already have in place, building new skyways, streetcars or light rail doesn't really matter.  Our bus routes are currently non user friendly because no matter your destination, your route takes you in circles in and around downtown.  Making better use out of the PCTs and Skyway to serve downtown, right now, creates a more efficient system in the short term.

I concur with making more efficient use of what we have! Skyway should have been longer and actually connect to something either at the ends or the middle but that's neither here nor there......right now it does not! Money to correct that problem will come from where? How much and where it would go to is still up in the air (no pun intended) and until we have a firm vision of what it could be...all else is conjecture! Today as in right now it is costing 7 Million dollars and what do we have for that money.........declining ridership! So the concept is nice but the execution sucks! Pull the plug and get it over with or get state/federal funds and make it into something we can use!

A Riverside extension would certainly make for a very picturesque Saturday. The proposed stop is close enough to the Riverside Arts Market, the Cummer Museum, 5 Points, Riverside Square, Memorial Park... the list goes on and on. Lunches, shopping, dinners, picnics, galleries, market venues... would be nice!  :D

I concur.....what could be ain't what is....Should have been better planned from the beginning or atleast planned with expansion in mind rather than what came to be! Someone had no vision and no plan!

Again, without doing anything other than better integrating it with the bus system today, would that reduce the amount of money we spend on it and our buses now?  Would downtown be a better place without nearly ever single bus in the city looping down half of its main streets?  Regardless of how we feel about skyway, its a $184 million investment currently in place right now.  Why not better integrate it with the bus system if it saves money and increases bus times?  In the meantime, the community can still debate what the ultimate future should be.

I agree....it should be integrated with the bus system but don't see how that option is viable. A plan to rework bus scheduling is in the works,as I understand it, but not sure how that will increase useage. Last thing I saw was approx 20K riders and believe that was a yearly figure. So it is under used, why? Not enough stops, irregular scheduling or just plane not used?

Another simple skyway improvement would have the north- cars run from FSCJ to Kings Ave without changing cars at central station you would only change if you where going to Jacksonville Terminal (Prime Osborn). If we ever expand down Bay street to the stadium an east west express line could be used and you would only need to change cars if you where changing direction.  Now unless you are getting off at central station you will be changing cars there. It just adds five to ten minutes to each trip that could be spared for most.

Jeffrey.....sounds good to me! Atleast something can come out of a bad design and one can hope things will get better!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 02, 2009, 08:27:56 AM
I agree....it should be integrated with the bus system but don't see how that option is viable.

If DT bus users have to use the skyway or PCTs to get around the DT, this allows the majority of bus lines to get in and get out of downtown quickly.  In some cases, this could trim as much as 20 minutes off the ride time of a person who does not have DT as their final destination.  Wide scale, this could reduce typical bus headways all across town and speed up the time it takes to get from point A to point B.  Better headways and more time efficient routes are two of many things that are needed to draw more riders to our mass transit system.

QuoteA plan to rework bus scheduling is in the works,as I understand it, but not sure how that will increase useage. Last thing I saw was approx 20K riders and believe that was a yearly figure. So it is under used, why? Not enough stops, irregular scheduling or just plane not used?

Its a bad combination of a lot of things.  A few include:

- poor headways
- confusion of where individual buses actually go (due to lack of informational signage at stops and weird bus route identification system
- a lack of bus shelters in a climate not conductive to standing on a busy street with no protection
- nationwide bus stigma
- antiquated fare collection system

There are more issues out there, these are just the tip of the iceberg.

Speaking of headways, I have yet to see any answer to this question I have asked several times:  What is the typical "best" headway of the $ky-high-way? 5 -10-20 -30 minutes?  Seems that would be a major factor in its value to be expanded.  Also, how many "trains" can run back and forth on the same $ky-high-way route?

According to JTA's website, the skyway is supposed to have 3 minute headways during peak hours and 6 minutes off peak.  I doubt it runs that frequent, but if so, better integration should not be a problem.

QuoteSkyway
Gliding above the St. Johns River and downtown city streets, the JTA Skyway serves points of interest on both sides of the river. The Skyway provides riders with easy access to their workplace, hotels, restaurants and entertainment venues.

The JTA Skyway is an automated system offering low cost and convenient service to downtown patrons and employees. The trains depart the stations approximately every three minutes during peak periods and about every six minutes all other times.

The Skyway Makes Connections.
The Skyway system is interconnected with JTA's free Trolley service, providing riders with expanded mobility in the downtown area. In addition, the Skyway stations at Convention Center, Jefferson Street and Kings Avenue offer inexpensive Park-N-Ride facilities for commuters and visitors. For a monthly pass or information on our metered parking, call (904) 630-3110.

Hours
Monday â€" Friday â€" 6 a.m. â€" 9 p.m.
Saturday â€" Noon â€" 7 p.m.
Sunday â€" Special Event Service only

Train Frequency
Peak Hours
6-9 a.m. and 4-6:30 p.m. - train arrives every 3 minutes
Off Peak Hours
Trains arrive every 3-6 minutes
(Exception: train from Rosa Parks Transit Station to San Marco runs every six minutes)

http://www.jtafla.com/Schedules/showPage.aspx?Sel=15

....and what is the capability to go in opposite directions at the same time (I have never climbed up and looked at the tracks)? I am getting a bath by fire on all forms of rail on this site.  ;)

Well, the skyway is double tracked.  Going opposite directions at the same time should not be a problem.

David, since the current configuration is all double track, the Skyway is completely bidirectional. The worst part of the current system is allowing a constant switch movement between the Jacksonville Terminal, Jefferson St, stations, and the Southbank line. This is causing one or the other train to (RAILROAD 101) "HOLD OUT", from Central Station, sometimes the delay is several minutes.

Lake, you are right, I would also toss in a few non-transit but supportive factors that could be added at little or no cost to the city. Micro-shops, restaurants, coffee bars, hot dogs, donuts, etc.. In Medellin, Colombia, our Central Station is darn near the size of the Landing and the shops are very much alive. Nearly every stop has a Dunkin Donuts, and these along with traditional Colombian finger foods, are about the size of a typical garden shed! Hey, it works!

stjr, You haven't seen other cities putting up Skyways, perhaps because you haven't looked... Las Vegas, Indy, Seattle (rebuilding), and many more on the drawing boards. Internationally there is no problem using monorail in downtown area's with Sydney, AU. having a wonderful and successful system. They are all over Japan and China, Tialand, and Tiawan. Check out http://www.monorails.org/ (I put a Jacksonville Skyway "family album" in the photo section).

As for the numbers, JTA Carry's more the 10,000,000 passengers per year, on about 60 routes +/-.  Miami's metro mover Carry's about as many people in a month as our Skyway does in a year. Yet our system has a superior and far more expandable technology behind it. Single beam monorail does NOT have to be in an elevated bath tub with side walls. The new Quom, Iran, monorail, is top of the line technology and the third such metro built in that country in almost as many years. Using products VERY FAMILIAR to JACKSONVILLE, their cost is $20 Million USD/Per KM

OCKLAWAHA

Thanks Ok and Lake. As I mentioned earlier, I am slowly learning the technical side of transit. Logistics will be the second course.  :)

Speaking of people movers, Phoenix and Miami are building them to connect with their new light rail and intermodal centers.

Indianapolis Clarion Health Peoplemover
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570693512_4FsQR-M.jpg)

QuoteSDI's proprietary UniTrakâ,,¢ People Mover is the culmination of two decades of practical, hands-on experience in designing, building and operating transit projects throughout the U.S. This fully-automated, state-of-the-art transit system was most recently installed above 1-1/2 miles of busy city streets in downtown Indianapolis in a widely acclaimed public-private venture initiated by Clarian Health Partners, Inc. and the City of Indianapolis. Performing as turnkey design-build contractor, SDI fast-tracked the highly complex, $40 million project from concept to completion in just two years. For complete documentation on the Clarian Health project,

http://www.schwagerdavis.com/pdf/clarian.pdf

That's $26.7 million per mile double tracked.  The skyway was $73.6 million per mile double tracked.  JTA's original BRT plan cost more per mile than Indy's people mover.  Tell me who's getting the short end of the stick?

QuoteFor the transportation industry, it is a one-of-a-kind achievement: the nation’s first privately-funded elevated transit system to operate over public right-of-way.

For its owner, Clarian Health Partners, it is an innovative solution to the problem of moving physicians, medical staff and equipment among three hospitals without the personal inconvenience and loss of productivity associated with urban traffic congestion.

I've seen this before here.  This appears to be a special purpose project a la Disney's monorail.  If private investors are the only ones who can make these things work, then let's auction off the $ky-high-way and be done with it.  Best wishes to the next owner.  Maybe they can make it work but the taxpayers will be off the hook.  Who says you can't make money on mass transit?  Maybe someone else can.

I really don't think we are fully comparing apples to apples here, to be frank.

P.S. I wonder if the stated $40 million cost in the Clarion project includes ALL the costs including land acquisition, etc. or if this is just what went through the main contractor.  And, what and how much equipment and capacity came with that?[/b]

(http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens2273858module12443316photo_1225855002moscow-monorail.jpg)
stjr Welcome to Beautiful Sunny MOSCOW, home to one of the dozens of new world leading monorail systems.  
(http://www.cta.ru/cms/i/375005$%5B400x300%5D.jpg)

Lake, you'll remember that these numbers are very close to the ones various vendors have told us about Jacksonville, expansion. Your right, someone is getting very rich because we are being robbed.

The per mile cost that you quoted, included a few very expensive but needed items. A bridge over the St. Johns River, which would have cost more then the total Skyway amount just for 4 auto lanes. We also bought a very high tech operations center, car barn, and shop complex, of which MJ has toured.

Having just returned from a photo tour of the new systems around the world can make one ill. Why Jacksonville isn't leading the State in transportation and transportation technology's is simply because we have elected "good old boys" that have completely trashed what was once the cutting edge we had in Florida. Like Jacksonville Terminal, streetcars, and commuter rail, the Skyway is just one more chance to retake the lead.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Moscow_Monorail,_Ulitsa_Sergeya_Eizenshteina.jpg/800px-Moscow_Monorail,_Ulitsa_Sergeya_Eizenshteina.jpg)
Check out this beautiful Moscow station. Hey where are the goofy gates? Maybe Russians aren't stupid enough to jump off the platform or onto the third rail!

(http://yesterdayssalad.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/cnstmm07.jpg)
Oh, and it works when it's -40 below zero too. First run of the day swipes the tracks clean of fresh snow.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on September 02, 2009, 10:56:14 PMP.S. I wonder if the stated $40 million cost in the Clarion project includes ALL the costs including land acquisition, etc. or if this is just what went through the main contractor.  And, what and how much equipment and capacity came with that?[/b]

It runs on public ROW, but let us know what you find.  If capital cost numbers are truly that low, there are questions that need to answered about why projects here are priced out significantly higher.

Thats an easy one to answer.....GOB Network hard at work lineing their pockets with taxpayers money!

and you think that other cities, like Indy, don't have a GOB network?

No! GOB Network is entrenched everywhere! Jacksonville is just starting to notice and its past time!

Why extend into riverside, extend to the stadium!

There was an earlier post that said words to the effect "Auction the Skyway off"! At first thought I was thinking what a dumb idea, then I got to thinking on it some more and I think the idea has merit! Why not? Let private enterprise have at it........done properly it could make someone money so why not let them have at!

Quote from: ramonher on September 28, 2009, 08:34:00 AM
Why extend into riverside, extend to the stadium!

So lets see - you have a dozen football games, some 40 baseball games and a few concerts each year. How does that justify spending $100 million extending the Skyway to the Stadium area? If you have hotels/condos building in the area to sustain service the other 300 days a year, then perhaps it could work. Besides, the current stadium shuttle service was rated the tops in the NFL by football (see Sports Illustrated last year). So, IMO, the need for transportation to the stadium really isn't there.

The Citizens of Jax would get more value of the Skyway cars as salt water reefs than we do right now!

Quote from: exnewsman on September 30, 2009, 10:00:08 AM

Quote from: ramonher on September 28, 2009, 08:34:00 AM
Why extend into riverside, extend to the stadium!

So lets see - you have a dozen football games, some 40 baseball games and a few concerts each year. How does that justify spending $100 million extending the Skyway to the Stadium area? If you have hotels/condos building in the area to sustain service the other 300 days a year, then perhaps it could work. Besides, the current stadium shuttle service was rated the tops in the NFL by football (see Sports Illustrated last year). So, IMO, the need for transportation to the stadium really isn't there.

I think $100 million is a bit over the top. Wasn't there a more realistic estimate out there?

Quote from: ramonher on September 28, 2009, 08:34:00 AM
Why extend into riverside, extend to the stadium!

Because I want a whole skyway car to myself to ride to work..... Duh. 

^^Exnewsman.... 55-ish days of events going on at the sports complex?? You forgot two of Jax's favorite pastimes; wrestling and monster trucks!  2-4 wrestling events a year and at least one monster truck rally and a tractor pull.  River run, kids kampus, metro park, 2 NEWS stations, maxwell house, future shipyards project... Plenty of reasons to extend it.

Until we can actually get a couple folks excited about extending it, I say don't.  Use that money to fund another county fair or UFC event.  Heck, we could even use it to buy a pair of jorts for everyone in the city!

We are not talking all the way to Riverside anyway just Brooklyn where there is already a line and a station plus a short extension that we already own the ROW to BCBS, Everbank and Fidelity.  These plans are based on the Brooklyn developments which the economy has put on hold.  If the Brooklyn projects are built it would be an excelent TOD and employer based extension.

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 30, 2009, 10:01:23 AM
The Citizens of Jax would get more value of the Skyway cars as salt water reefs than we do right now!

Actually mtraininjax, I think your wrong on this. Speaking from a purely environmental standpoint I think the PCT (potato-chip trucks painted to look something like a Trolley) fleet should be the first to take that plunge. Another use might be out a Camp Blanding, where the big guns are always looking for targets.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, the ocean is big enough for all of Jax's "fishy" boondoggles.  We can create our own version of the legendary underwater city of Atlantis, Jaxatlantis!  We will have to change the $ky-high-way's name though to "$ea-low-way"  :D !  For sure, it will have more visitors below the sea, than above it.

Extend to Riverside, Southside and the Stadium.  Northside we cannot justify at present, but the others we can (possibly Westside in the future).

Heights Unknown

Quote from: stjr on September 30, 2009, 12:30:51 PM
Ock, the ocean is big enough for all of Jax's "fishy" boondoggles.  We can create our own version of the legendary underwater city of Atlantis, Jaxatlantis!  We will have to change the $ky-high-way's name though to "$ea-low-way"  :D !  For sure, it will have more visitors below the sea, than above it.

It would be an interesting new type of U-Boat, and could even attract tourists:
unter dem Meeresspiegel Zug

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: heights unknown on September 30, 2009, 01:00:17 PM
Extend to Riverside, Southside and the Stadium.  Northside we cannot justify at present, but the others we can (possibly Westside in the future).

Heights Unknown

I think we could Heights, right through the college (right of way is already in place), to the south and west side of Hogans Creek up to Shands. Shands and the VA clinic would be a huge passenger generator. BTW, that is what the original plan called for too.

OCKLAWAHA

Costing us 7 Million a year to operate now...........so either pull the plug or extend it but do something with it now!

Quote from: stephendare on October 05, 2009, 08:58:57 PM
lol.  no not at all!  We love the portland system!  It was my way of showing you the article! :)

Thanks as you can tell I'm new to this forum and I must say for the most part I Love this web site.

Quote from: stephendare on October 05, 2009, 09:03:48 PM
Thanks!  Welcome to the site!  Your posts are great its a pleasure to have you.

Thank you

Quote from: heights unknown on September 30, 2009, 01:00:17 PM
Extend to Riverside, Southside and the Stadium.  Northside we cannot justify at present, but the others we can (possibly Westside in the future).

Heights Unknown

The Skyway system is outdated, we may be able to tie it into something like Portland Oregon has.

This project has been removed from the TPO's 2035 cost feasible plan.  In other words, unless funding comes from other sources, the skyway you see today will be the skyway you'll have in 2035.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2009, 10:34:07 AM
This project has been removed from the TPO's 2035 cost feasible plan.  In other words, unless funding comes from other sources, the skyway you see today will be the skyway you'll have in 2035.

Lake, thanks for posting this.

I am glad to hear this, needless to say, as you know what I think of growing the system.  The TPO is correct on this one.  The next decision, in light of this, is to decommission it and put the money toward mass transit projects that offer far more benefits for the money.
.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2009, 10:34:07 AM
This project has been removed from the TPO's 2035 cost feasible plan.  In other words, unless funding comes from other sources, the skyway you see today will be the skyway you'll have in 2035.

That's depressing.  2035 is forever away. 

Captain...........I concur! 2035 is a long way out and if it continues to cost up to 14 Million a year, not a good thing over the long term! Either extend or pull its plug!

Quote from: CS Foltz on October 19, 2009, 03:35:42 PM
Captain...........I concur! 2035 is a long way out and if it continues to cost up to 14 Million a year, not a good thing over the long term! Either extend or pull its plug!

Pull the Plug on extending this to Riverside, maybe the Gator Bowl if we still have the jaguars in the future.

If the Skyway can't be extended 1/3 of a mile down Riverside Avenue (where the ROW is already reserved), you can forget about a 1+ mile extension to the stadium!

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2009, 08:06:17 AM
If the Skyway can't be extended 1/3 of a mile down Riverside Avenue (where the ROW is already reserved), you can forget about a 1+ mile extension to the stadium!

Ok then KILL IT and go with something else and we better get going for Oil prices are going back up and this time we are SCREWED!

Kill it and pay the feds back on all the capital costs they invested into it. Where is all of that going to come from?

Quote from: fsujax on October 21, 2009, 01:10:46 PM
Kill it and pay the feds back on all the capital costs they invested into it. Where is all of that going to come from?

FSU, worry about it if we ever get the bill.  No one has yet even demonstrated this provision applies to the $ky-high-way.  So far, it remains an urban myth.  Thanks for keeping it going.  ;)

Quote from: stjr on October 21, 2009, 01:32:30 PM

Quote from: fsujax on October 21, 2009, 01:10:46 PM
Kill it and pay the feds back on all the capital costs they invested into it. Where is all of that going to come from?

FSU, worry about it if we ever get the bill.  No one has yet even demonstrated this provision applies to the $ky-high-way.  So far, it remains an urban myth.  Thanks for keeping it going.  ;)

Wouldn't it be too late to do something about it once we got the bill?

It is no urban myth. It is clearly delineated. The city council has already raised the possiblity of tearing the skyway down, and been advised that the city would be liable for the Federal portion of construction expense. The Fed DOT may be able to waive that liability, but I don't think  the Obama administration would be amenable.

Quote from: jaxtrader on October 21, 2009, 03:12:17 PM
It is no urban myth. It is clearly delineated. The city council has already raised the possibility of tearing the skyway down, and been advised that the city would be liable for the Federal portion of construction expense. The Fed DOT may be able to waive that liability, but I don't think  the Obama administration would be amenable.

I haven't seen this City Council discussion in the press or on MJ.  Maybe you could enlighten us with the details since all City Council deliberations are subject to the public records law.

I do know that many apparently in-the-know posters on MJ haven't posted any documents supporting a Fed claw back.  Also, as previously noted in other posts, reasonably, there would have to be (a) a time limit to any such claw back as the Feds certainly don't expect the system to last forever, (b) a provision for its unmitigated functional/financial failure (I think the $ky-high-way clearly qualifies), or (c) at least a depreciation schedule that, over time, steps the claw back down to zero.

As to the politics, I don't know how you could predict that for this or any other administration.  If Corrine Brown tells Obama to forget about it, I am confident we would never have to pay the bill.  :D

Pull the plug............give the Feds an IOU? Maybe Johnny can write a check or maybe Herb can give the City a low interest loan or grant....either way.......pull the freakin plug!

I look forward to when it does get extended to the Riverside area. _ may consider moving back to Jax.

^^  No need to start packing yet.

Quote from: Coolyfett on February 07, 2010, 09:14:45 PM
I look forward to when it does get extended to the Riverside area. _ may consider moving back to Jax.

It's not being extended down Riverside Avenue anytime soon, if ever.  It was even pulled off the 2035 LRTP's list after a complaint from Councilman Joost.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2010, 10:27:02 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on February 07, 2010, 09:14:45 PM
I look forward to when it does get extended to the Riverside area. _ may consider moving back to Jax.

It's not being extended down Riverside Avenue anytime soon, if ever.  It was even pulled off the 2035 LRTP's list after a complaint from Councilman Joost.

p

Joost? Interesting...Ive never hear of the guy. Why did the train expansion upset him?

Quote from: Coolyfett on February 28, 2010, 11:00:51 AM
Joost? Interesting...Ive never hear of the guy. Why did the train expansion upset him?

Maybe because...

It's a waste of money
There are far better ways to spend the money and get better results (can you say "streetcar"?)
We can't afford to build it OR operate it
It's not user friendly and never will be
There is no REAL demand for it
It's ugly
It's a street killer
It doesn't fit in
JTA isn't competent to make it work
It's a PROVEN failure no matter what proponents have done or said
It's a political albatross, a third rail not to be touched
Adjacent property owners might not want it
It has no credibility as a transit solution after 3 decades of disappointments and 95% shortfalls

Need I go on....just pick any one of the above and you will have more than enough to understand.

Just in case you are still lacking for a rationale, go back and read the hundreds of posts on the top 3 to 5 MJ threads on this subject and see if that helps.  Enjoy... ;D

Ock,
Could the tracks be retrofitted for a better type of car and operation system?

Quote from: billy on February 28, 2010, 11:35:47 AM
Ock,
Could the tracks be retrofitted for a better type of car and operation system?

Quote from: stjr on February 28, 2010, 11:30:13 AM
There are far better ways to spend the money and get better results (can you say "streetcar"?)

Would have been far better ways to spend the money, but since it's spent and the core is in place, the only thing preventing results is the lack of resolve by the JTA and COJ to finish the damn thing.

QuoteWe can't afford to build it OR operate it

We better be, because expansion of the Skyway per mile is on par with Light Rail Transit, and the Skyway could be built quite a bit cheaper then the unbuilt but engineered segments. Operations? We could run 4 Skyways off of the money used to paint the Hart Bridge, and a similar amount of operating capital equal to the amount of money the Mayor wants to pour into Metropolitan Park. Fact is, the Skyway is off the radar, and as such it is being abandoned through neglect.

QuoteIt's not user friendly and never will be

Not a fault of the technology, rather this is a blame that can be laid at JTA's feet. Rosa Parks - filthy, day care - never opened, retail - never opened, kiosks - never built, residential links - never built, close headways - cut back, information booths - not maned, stations and cars - not clean, Garage - inaccessible, Hotel - misses it, Convention Center - isolated occasional use... and I'm sure we could come up with more.

QuoteThere is no REAL demand for it

There is as much demand for it as there is for downtown auto traffic, city buses, water taxi's or streetcars. This argument just allows the anti-transit politicos to point and say, "see transit doesn't work." The demand has NEVER been marketed to the urban customer.

QuoteIt's ugly

Strictly a matter of opinion, it has received rave reviews from several out of town visitors as well as international travelers that I've introduced to it. Anyone from anywhere besides Jacksonville, and that includes ORLANDO, will leave saying, "This is what Orlando needs!"

QuoteIt's a street killer

Fly's above the street, and the possible street benefits, such as the festive tenting and awnings shown in the original plans were never built. In fact, had they followed their own plan, Hogan would have resembled our plans for Laura Street 30 years ago.

QuoteIt doesn't fit in

Opinion again. Frankly we have a modern city with a modern monorail, it would be hard to find a better cosmetic fit. The transit fit isn't realized as JTA is determined to have the Skyway compete with it's bus system for riders.

QuoteJTA isn't competent to make it work

DING![/color]

QuoteIt's a PROVEN failure no matter what proponents have done or said

Sounds like a self defeating prophecy, they could have finished it according to plan but left us with an "elevator" that only runs from the 8Th floor to the 12Th, in a building with 30.

QuoteIt's a political albatross, a third rail not to be touched

Only because no one in the city understands transit and JTA will not stand and fight for anything on those occasions when they DO have it right. The City Council has become a ball-less wonder.

QuoteAdjacent property owners might not want it

That's what they told the Rio Grande before they laid tracks up the Royal Gorge. Everyone has a price or a condition, but nothing is impossible.

QuoteIt has no credibility as a transit solution after 3 decades of disappointments and 95% shortfalls

Yep, for all the reasons we just listed.

BILLY: It could be with fair ease, but the monorail is quite able to handle new cars and not cost us to reinvent the whole system.


OCKLAWAHA

Gee Ock........what about all the riders it serves? I still say "Pull its plug"!

Ill be glad when the population count gets up to 4 mil in Jax.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2010, 10:27:02 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on February 07, 2010, 09:14:45 PM
I look forward to when it does get extended to the Riverside area. _ may consider moving back to Jax.

It's not being extended down Riverside Avenue anytime soon, if ever.  It was even pulled off the 2035 LRTP's list after a complaint from Councilman Joost.

and now Coolyfett, you may understand why I also said the stadium extension won't happen.

Quote from: Coolyfett on February 28, 2010, 09:13:11 PM
Ill be glad when the population count gets up to 4 mil in Jax.

I will not. This city is still on a "big town" mentality. Let's not wish for things we can't yet handle.  :D

Ock, thanks for your valiant efforts to portray the $ky-high-way as the answer to world peace.  ;)

But, it's not what it cost, it's what it cost vs. benefits and alternatives.  And, the $ky-high-way has proven it doesn't measure up on either count and most of us are convinced it never will.  I encourage new MJ readers to review our many threads on this subject to find my rebuttals to Ock's answers.  No time to rehash again here.

Ock, your original instincts from decades ago were the right ones.  "Follow your instincts - may the Force be with you!  Don't go over to the Dark Side."  ;D

My original instincts were, "IT SHOULDN'T BE BUILT!" and I'd say I'd still say that today if we were starting from zero, but we're not.  Nobody want's to see true rail in this city as much as the guy that originally proposed it, but knowing the industry and the federal agency's we'll get far more capital out of some small improvements and extensions then we will with a wrecking ball. In fact, if we tore it down tomorrow, we would literally seal in stone the fact that funding for our 2030 plan would come down with it.  We'd all be dead before Uncle Sam wrote another check in Jacksonville, and our national failure, and lack of resolve to "fix it" has already given us a black eye. "Oh here's that funding request from Jacksonville," as they laugh trying to prevent the coffee from staining their shirts. Trust me, little things like allowing the Jaguars to have their head's on everybody's chopping block all season long doesn't help either, we've become something of a national joke. Running with our tail between our legs is not the way to instill confidence in the Federal Transit Administration. We must be able to walk in the room straight faced and sober and demonstrate a modicum of optimism that the latest plan is the solution.

The Federal Government that funds these things couldn't care less about our toils as long as it looks justifiable on paper. Something that you stjr, and many others don't know is that we are not sleeping at MJ, and in fact take this project quite seriously. As such we have been meeting and speaking directly with a who's who of our government and transportation officials, remember we are not simply reporting about our city but are activists. One of the things that has become glaringly clear is at the Federal Level of our State Representation, we could have nearly any Skyway improvement if we'd just ask for it! We have all heard comments like, "That monorail thing, why don't they finish it?", "That monorail could be a model for the country," and "Please get those people to ask me for something, I'd like to do it, but they won't request it..." We'll be reporting on some of these conversations soon.

Due to the knee jerk relations the city has had with the Skyway, I'd suggest that the "stadium Extension" be scaled back to somewhere in the East Bay-Newnan-Berkman area. This would place it well for whatever comes of the old Court House site, as well as anything done with the Skipyard's site.

Otherwise, moving down to:

San Marco at Atlantic
Brooklyn at Riverside and Forest (though Annie Lytle would make more sense)
Springfield at Health Department and on to the VA clinic when it is built (perhaps funded with it)

On the Southbank

Something needs to be done about the current San Marco Station's near abandonment of Atena and Baptist
A curving concourse walk with beautiful views of downtown, could be created from both places into the station, or a new Skyway shuttle line, moving back and forth all day, could connect them as well as Wolfsons, Nemours, etc...

The biggest thing wrong with the Skyway, is having an operator, rather then a warden.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock--

Wouldn't 'scaling it back from the stadium' fly counter to the paradigm of "give the skyway a destination"?  Unless something spectacular happens with the old courthouse, Berkman might not really be a destination when compared with Met Park and the Stadium.  We'd be extending it to nowhere.

people will be surprised what actually gets "talked into reality" on this site...I know this site talks about millions of things that make Jax or some parts of Jax better. Its very interesting that sum citizens there in Jax are against certain options.

Quote from: DavidWilliams on February 28, 2010, 10:28:54 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on February 28, 2010, 09:13:11 PM
Ill be glad when the population count gets up to 4 mil in Jax.

I will not. This city is still on a "big town" mentality. Let's not wish for things we can't yet handle.  :D

Oh 4 Million will happen...not sure if ill be around to see it, but hey more babys are born than folks die so.....

If Jacksonville ever gets to 4 million people, that means the state of Florida probably has close to 50 million.  We'd better get some cheap, reliable desalinization technology by then or we'll all be walking around in Fremen stillsuits.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 28, 2010, 11:38:35 PM

Due to the knee jerk relations the city has had with the Skyway, I'd suggest that the "stadium Extension" be scaled back to somewhere in the East Bay-Newnan-Berkman area. This would place it well for whatever comes of the old Court House site, as well as anything done with the Skipyard's site.

If a decision were made to extend the skyway down Bay instead of a streetcar, you have to get it to the stadium/metropolitan park area.  That area may be only packed for special events but that annual ridership would be needed to justify the costs.  Instead of cutting back, the way to save on it would be to drop it down to grade (on the northside) just east of Liberty.  There's only two intersections before A. Philip Randolph and both could be closed without really impacting existing establishments in the area.  Out of a mile long extension, half of it would be at grade, which would dramatically cut the costs down.

QuoteOtherwise, moving down to:

San Marco at Atlantic

A good chunk of this could be dropped to grade level also after crossing the FEC.  Nevertheless, this is really the cheapest solution to getting over the FEC between DT and San Marco Square.

QuoteBrooklyn at Riverside and Forest (though Annie Lytle would make more sense)

I don't think it would hurt to scrap this entire route.  A streetcar connecting DT to Riverside could serve the same area and would be more well recieved by the community and the historic district.  Instead of building two transit systems to compete for riders in Brooklyn, go with the streetcar and use the money saved to extend mass transit into a nearby neighborhood like Springfield or Durkeeville.

QuoteSpringfield at Health Department and on to the VA clinic when it is built (perhaps funded with it)

I know you guys hate it but the North BRT corridor will serve the new VA clinic with a straight shot from the JTC down Broad/Jefferson.  I think you'll have trouble proposing to run the skyway through the historic parks lining Hogans Creek.

QuoteOn the Southbank

Something needs to be done about the current San Marco Station's near abandonment of Atena and Baptist
A curving concourse walk with beautiful views of downtown, could be created from both places into the station, or a new Skyway shuttle line, moving back and forth all day, could connect them as well as Wolfsons, Nemours, etc...

I agree. Some sort of pedestrian overpass over the Acosta and FEC tracks would really help tie Kings Avenue Station in with Baptist and the Acosta Building.  Tie it in with a San Marco "loop shuttle" and that could also serve as a way for people to get over FEC freight traffic.  However, even a pedestrian overpass will cost you a couple of million.

QuoteThe biggest thing wrong with the Skyway, is having an operator, rather then a warden.

Yes, ridership would increase if it were treated as an important part of the local mass transit network instead of a red headed stepchild.




[/quote]

Quote from: stjr on February 28, 2010, 10:59:16 PM
              most of us are convinced it never will.  I encourage new MJ readers to review our many threads on this subject to find my rebuttals to Ock's answers./b]

most of us??? Everytime You post, you try to speak for everyone. ALSO, every poll that you have made on here never had CLEAR choices or really made any sense. You encourage new members to follow you?????? Most people on here are adults and can choose for themselves. New member don't need you to tell them how to think. What is that about? You trying to come off as some sort of leader on this forum....even Ock and Lake don't try to do that. Just present information and leave it at that. You make your opinion know, then you go overboard with the whole "JOIN ME" campaign. Cmon now.

Quote from: Doctor_K on March 02, 2010, 03:01:44 PM
Ock--

Wouldn't 'scaling it back from the stadium' fly counter to the paradigm of "give the skyway a destination"?  Unless something spectacular happens with the old courthouse, Berkman might not really be a destination when compared with Met Park and the Stadium.  We'd be extending it to nowhere.

that is why the convention center should be located on the shipyards site.  Along with the stadium and Met Park, it would give a strong terminus for the skyway extension.  Of course a hotel would be needed with the convention center.

As long as its on Bay, you'll get the same ridership from a convention center.  However, if you're going to expand the skyway down Bay, you have to get it to at least Philip Randolph.

Quote from: DavidWilliams on February 28, 2010, 10:28:54 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on February 28, 2010, 09:13:11 PM
Ill be glad when the population count gets up to 4 mil in Jax.

I will not. This city is still on a "big town" mentality. Let's not wish for things we can't yet handle.  :D

What city in America is ready for growth??? The only thing that would make me not support rail growth would be flying cars...many people still do not know how to drive on regular roads.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 02, 2010, 06:01:54 PM
As long as its on Bay, you'll get the same ridership from a convention center.  However, if you're going to expand the skyway down Bay, you have to get it to at least Philip Randolph.

I just visited San Antonio, which has a huge convention center...there is no real transit system there and most people flying in either get a $30 taxi or $18 shuttle to downtown from the airport.

Once downtown they frequent the Riverwalk, which connects directly to the Convention Center and its associated hotls...most stroll the riverwalk, but they also take the boat tours/taxis....I noted that there were several free PCT trolley routes running through downtown and they are mostly empty.

bottom line...don't count on convention center folks to take transit...many of them are suburbanites that aren't accustomes to using transit and often they come for meetings that include transportation....now local trade shows (like the auto and boat shows) are a bit differnt.

Quote from: Coolyfett on March 02, 2010, 05:48:48 PM

Quote from: stjr on February 28, 2010, 10:59:16 PM
               most of us are convinced it never will.  I encourage new MJ readers to review our many threads on this subject to find my rebuttals to Ock's answers./b]

most of us??? Everytime You post, you try to speak for everyone. ALSO, every poll that you have made on here never had CLEAR choices or really made any sense. You encourage new members to follow you?????? Most people on here are adults and can choose for themselves. New member don't need you to tell them how to think. What is that about? You trying to come off as some sort of leader on this forum....even Ock and Lake don't try to do that. Just present information and leave it at that. You make your opinion know, then you go overboard with the whole "JOIN ME" campaign. Cmon now.

Not even worth a response, Coolyfett.  You have really lost it.

yet you responded....predictable

IN THE MASS TRANSIT INDUSTRY, ONE LEGEND STANDS HEAD AND SHOULDERS ABOVE THE OTHERS... NOW FOR YOUR ENLIGHTENMENT MJ PRESENTS THE MYTHICAL SUPERFELINE

http://www.youtube.com/v/n1bUgfB96co&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca

Quote from: thelakelander on March 02, 2010, 06:01:54 PM
As long as its on Bay, you'll get the same ridership from a convention center.  However, if you're going to expand the skyway down Bay, you have to get it to at least Philip Randolph.

I think everyone on here knows my position on the Skyway as-is. Certainly I support it going into the stadium area, in fact still feel a combination garage/BRT/Skyway/Streetcar facility located somewhere at the foot of the bridges would be a killer combination.

EASTSIDE
But since so many Skyway NIMBY or NIOBY (other back yards) have raised against the Skyway, I'm thinking phases. Central station to BOA/MODIS to Newnan (streetcar connection) to East Bay, entertainment district/police/future Convention Center? to Shipyards/future Convention Center to (future extension) would be a fairly easy way to bust through the core without the stretch to tne goal line. 1/2 mile would probably easier to get past city hall then a whole mile, when every 5Th person wants to toss out the "Game day only riders" argument. God forbid that they would understand intermodal mix, FREEway ramps, parking, and CHOICE. Hell JTA doesn't even understand route choice just look at the Southbank BRT - Skyway competition they are going to build!

BROOKLYN
As for Brooklyn, remember my preferred route for the Streetcar is Forest to MYRTLE to Bay to Lee to Water... using the original and historic streetcar subway. (As it sits it reminds me of the Louisville EL - a haunting and tempting ghost) While this route is a bit weaker on current adjacent infrastructure, Myrtle is a historic blowtorch waiting to be ignited. Also tempting is the opportunity to send that streetcar shooting straight up Myrtle to about 8Th, again the Myrtle route provides for that. At the same time Skyway on Riverside would balance the sector north of I-95 with two complimentary routes. Because of route choice there would be no need for competition between the modes. The frequent Skyway headways would be covering the air between the larger office towers, and the interconnected streetcar would be carrying the funky crowd to the word-a-day sights.

VA CLINIC
True, the Skyway would cross the BRT directly from the Jacksonville Terminal (until JTA gets the bright idea to blow the lettering off the front of that building it WILL NEVER BE THE JTC!) up Broad or back on Jefferson and Boulevard, this isn't the traffic the Skyway would be feeding into the VA/8Th street area. Running at a diagonal along the south-west edge of the historic parks (rather then through them as engineered) a stop just above Florida College, for FC/Health Dept/Bethel Church, a BRT connecting station at the residential towers, then into the VA/Shands complex. This traffic would originate in SAN MARCO, SOUTHBANK, BROOKLYN, DOWNTOWN, FLORIDA COLLEGE, and EASTSIDE riverfront. The BRT would feed in from NORTHSIDE, GATEWAY, LEM TURNER, SHANDS, JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL, SOUTHWEST, MURRAY HILL, ORANGE PARK, SOUTHBANK. I don't see much competition in this, but I do see the theory of complimenting layers of transit.

WEST?
While neither of us have addressed the future of Jacksonville West, the growth along Beaver and the Farmers Market can't be ignored forever. Nothing would be easier to conquer the mess consisting of I-95 ramps and bridges, JTA bus yard, Beaver Street Interlocking (CSX,NS,FEC) then the Skyway.  While I would NEVER venture to project the Skyway much beyond the core, tapping the edge of West Jacksonville-Westbrook Park area, might make all the future sense in the world. Unfortunately JTA is fixing to screw over any future westbound expansion by plopping an office building right at the end of the Jacksonville Terminal branch of the Skyway. Brilliant! I'm not saying it's my plan or anyone else's, I just wonder what they would propose if some business or developer put a few thousand new people in that area? I know, FLYING BUSES! Each flying bus will come with molded plastic bust with either Suraya Teeple or Ed Castinelli's face attached to the front!

JUST KIDDING! Hi Suraya, Hi Ed!

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/SUb_F5VahkI/AAAAAAAABNk/rX633O650S8/s800/JTCO.gif)

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, let's discuss one leg of your dream $ky-high-way routing.  East Bay Street.  So, you want to run the $ky-high-way across the face of the historic buildings making up this district?  How compatible is that?  And, didn't someone build some second/third floor lofts along here?  Are these residents supposed to look out their windows at the $ky-high-way?  How much of that entertainment district will survive the construction period of an extension of the $ky-high-way?  Based on prior history, none.

And, you wonder why there is NIMBY resistance?

Now, if you are one of these sideline residents or businesses or just care about street level ambiance that hearkens to our historic past, which would you prefer?  Streetcars or $ky-high-way?

Quote from: stjr on March 02, 2010, 11:06:36 PM
Ock, let's discuss one leg of your dream $ky-high-way routing.  East Bay Street.  So, you want to run the $ky-high-way across the face of the historic buildings making up this district?  How compatible is that?  And, didn't someone build some second/third floor lofts along here?  Are these residents supposed to look out their windows at the $ky-high-way?  How much of that entertainment district will survive the construction period of an extension of the $ky-high-way?  Based on prior history, none.

And, you wonder why there is NIMBY resistance?

Now, if you are one of these sideline residents or businesses or just care about street level ambiance that hearkens to our historic past, which would you prefer?  Streetcars or $ky-high-way?

Properly routed, they each serve a different market within the same city. Streetcars won't cross the river anytime soon, nor will they fly. Scratch a Hogan or Laura alignment, which leave the Skyway in some prime real estate. Skyways and Streetcars are relatively silent, in that regard buses and automobiles are the real enemy, and why would I complain about a Skyway track and not an elevated sidewalk (Baptist Hospital or FBC?) or looking out my window and seeing roof tops? or seeing 100' feet of pavement, radiating the July heat? your attacking the wrong mode.

OCKLAWAHA

Jax doesnt care about history. Its a proven fact. The Skyway is near many Historic locations. What is more Historic than Hemming Plaza.

You won't see streetcars of $ky way anytime soon with this budget in place.

lol

Unless the Skyway fall's on top of City Hall, my crystal ball say's:

Skyway Extension into San Marco
and Riverside is a strong maybe

Streetcar Phase One

BUILT within 5 years...   

How do I know? Maybe it's just a hunch, or maybe? Just remember that 2 people can keep a secret as long as one of them is dead!


OCKLAWAHA

Too many issue's with the $kyway to extend Ock.............would take Federal money (our tax money one more time)to even begin to extend and don't see that happening with a freeze on Federal money according to Oboma! The "NIMBY" cult would have something to say about penetrating historic anywhere........unless it were underground......then maybe, but lets see just how good your crystal ball is working!

I will agree that we get some streetcar built within five years....but highly doubt we'll see a skyway extension anytime soon.

Need proof....the $9.3 million stimulus grant that JTA just got originally had $100,000 listed for enhancements at the Skyway Central Station....when a City Council member objected, JTA changed the application to put the $100,000 to something else!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 09, 2010, 12:22:03 AM
Unless the Skyway fall's on top of City Hall, my crystal ball say's:

How do I know? Maybe it's just a hunch, or maybe? Just remember that 2 people can keep a secret as long as one of them is dead!

OCKLAWAHA

Alright, I'll bite.  Who'd you knock off? :)

Without reading this entire thread, it does seem like the skyway is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.  As it is, it is not very effective. There are times as it is that is it used closer to capacity...by out of towners during the right conventions. The issue seems to be deciding how best to get daily communers using it more and that involves extending it.

So, the final question seems to be do you admitt defeat and tear it down or extend it?  Which is less expensive in the long run? What is the cost of whatever public transit replaces it combined with the cost to demo and that compared to the cost of extending it to make it work, which is better for the city and the tax payers?  Letting it continue as is seems somewhat self defeating.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 09, 2010, 08:24:16 AM
....the $9.3 million stimulus grant that JTA just got originally had $100,000 listed for enhancements at the Skyway Central Station....when a City Council member objected, JTA changed the application to put the $100,000 to something else!

Tufsu, what's more useful?  A $ky-high-way station no one uses, or bus shelters so badly needed that we need to turn the town upside down to get it done.  If true, the switch in the 100K was smart and that isn't something I can say very often about JTA's actions.  Of course, someone else had to tell them to do it.  Maybe they were the smart one. ;D

Quote from: strider on March 09, 2010, 08:37:42 AM
Which is less expensive in the long run? What is the cost of whatever public transit replaces it combined with the cost to demo and that compared to the cost of extending it to make it work, which is better for the city and the tax payers?  Letting it continue as is seems somewhat self defeating.

Strider, had we junked the $ky-high-way at any of several "Do-we-expand-or-junk-it?" points in the past, we could have saved, or far better redirected toward other mass transit options, hundreds of millions in capital and operating costs dollars.  On a per rider basis, no form of mass transit loses more money than the $ky-high-way despite 30 years of promises to the contrary.  Expanding it will only serve to expand this gross waste of money, nothing more.

It's tough admitting a mistake, it's even tougher admitting you couldn't admit a mistake.  That's the story of the $ky-high-way's survival.

Quote from: CS Foltz on March 09, 2010, 06:52:58 AM
Too many issue's with the $kyway to extend Ock.............would take Federal money (our tax money one more time)to even begin to extend and don't see that happening with a freeze on Federal money according to Oboma! The "NIMBY" cult would have something to say about penetrating historic anywhere........unless it were underground......then maybe, but lets see just how good your crystal ball is working!

The 2 to 3 miles needed to get the Skyway into a destination can be built at a nearly identical cost to Light Rail, and the segments are short enough to be 100% locally funded. Bottom line, NO FEDERAL MONEY NEEDED, though if we apply for it, we are nearly guaranteed approval of our grant. Federal Mass Transit money is not frozen, and none of the extensions would be in a designated "historic district".


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: David on July 20, 2009, 08:44:03 AM
They really need to do this part of the skyway extension, it would boost ridership immensely.

I totally agree. Put it where people live.

Quote from: strider on March 09, 2010, 08:37:42 AM
Without reading this entire thread, it does seem like the skyway is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.  As it is, it is not very effective. There are times as it is that is it used closer to capacity...by out of towners during the right conventions. The issue seems to be deciding how best to get daily communers using it more and that involves extending it.

So, the final question seems to be do you admitt defeat and tear it down or extend it?  Which is less expensive in the long run? What is the cost of whatever public transit replaces it combined with the cost to demo and that compared to the cost of extending it to make it work, which is better for the city and the tax payers?  Letting it continue as is seems somewhat self defeating.

They didnt finish it...It has 8 stations...Only 2 actually go somewhere nice. 2 out of 8. So six of them need developments near them. One councilmen GOB....will fade away in time and a younger wiser councilmen will eventually fill the void. I used the Skyway often, especially when going to MocaJax or the Library. I dont want it all the way to Post & Stockton....but Post & Margeret were perfert for where I used to live.

Its quite comical to read someone wanting more bus shelters and less Skyway stations when they in fact never even use JTA????? 3 buses went through Riverside EVERYDAY!! the W4, W7 & W12 none ruined the HISTORY of gentrified Riverside....but now you think a Skyway train will? And those buses were/are loud.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 09, 2010, 08:24:16 AM
I will agree that we get some streetcar built within five years....but highly doubt we'll see a skyway extension anytime soon.

Need proof....the $9.3 million stimulus grant that JTA just got originally had $100,000 listed for enhancements at the Skyway Central Station....when a City Council member objected, JTA changed the application to put the $100,000 to something else!

It is true that JTA has been worse then the Cowardly Lion of legendary fame about exerting it's idea's and expertise, but this shouldn't effect a common sense plan for the Skyway. Allowing non transportation people to direct our planning from the sidelines is how we got into this irresponsible mess to begin with. Way past time for this anemic agency to grow a pair...

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Coolyfett on March 09, 2010, 10:41:58 PM

Quote from: strider on March 09, 2010, 08:37:42 AM
Without reading this entire thread, it does seem like the skyway is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations.  As it is, it is not very effective. There are times as it is that is it used closer to capacity...by out of towners during the right conventions. The issue seems to be deciding how best to get daily communers using it more and that involves extending it.

So, the final question seems to be do you admitt defeat and tear it down or extend it?  Which is less expensive in the long run? What is the cost of whatever public transit replaces it combined with the cost to demo and that compared to the cost of extending it to make it work, which is better for the city and the tax payers?  Letting it continue as is seems somewhat self defeating.

They didnt finish it...It has 8 stations...Only 2 actually go somewhere nice. 2 out of 8. So six of them need developments near them. One councilmen GOB....will fade away in time and a younger wiser councilmen will eventually fill the void. I used the Skyway often, especially when going to MocaJax or the Library. I dont want it all the way to Post & Stockton....but Post & Margeret were perfert for where I used to live.

Its quite comical to read someone wanting more bus shelters and less Skyway stations when they in fact never even use JTA????? 3 buses went through Riverside EVERYDAY!! the W4, W7 & W12 none ruined the HISTORY of gentrified Riverside....but now you think a Skyway train will? And those buses were/are loud.

Yep, not one segment was ever finished. Starting in 1960's, plans for a monorail system as a downtown distributor first became serious. The Federal Government announced plans for new demonstration programs for a new technology called APM, or Automated People Mover, or DPM, Downtown People Mover, in the 1970's. 1978, Jacksonville completes a preliminary needs assessment and finds that we would benefit from a system of APM anchored to the City's buildings via a system of matching Skywalk's. The initial route should extend from the Courthouse into Riverside. 1980's, Jacksonville is one of 3 Cities to be awarded funding to complete a demonstration project, a fully funded study came back recommending a route from the Courthouse to Riverside, A line up Hogan, and the Springfield Parks, to Shand's, and finally a line over the river serving Baptist Hospital, and all points along the Mary Street. 1986, a final starter line was laid out from the Courthouse to the Landing and hence North to FCCJ, this would be about the 3Rd study to recommend this same route. Construction funding is delivered and JTA builds the starter system from a sometimes used Convention Center across a moonscape to Jefferson Street and Central Station. (note: how it missed the Courthouse AND Landing which had appeared on EVERY single study done).  From Central Station the line was extended to Hemming Plaza and The Rosa Parks Transit Center, but it failed by one VERY BUSY road to make it into FCCJ which was supposed to be the traffic anchor. The Courthouse and City Hall were left high and dry as the Skyway turned away from the recommendations and plans to miss the Landing, Modis, BOA, Courthouse, C of C, State Office Building, City Hall, Police Station, Jail, or the heartbeat of the core.

The conversion to monorail was intelligent and probably the first thing JTA did right on this project. Monorail can actually move at speeds of up to 55 MPH (yes ours!), trains can be expanded, equipment is available off the shelf.

With that conversion, the system crossed the river on the New Acosta Bridge, turning East at the south end of the bridge and completely missing Baptist, Nemour's, Aetna, 2 major garages, Medical Arts building, and Ronald McDonald House. Not only were they not included in the system, but the FEC RY, Acosta Ramps, San Marco and Prudential Drive, conspired to create a "Great Wall" making access very uncomfortable.

In order to try to pull a rabbit out of the hat in a last desperate try, the Authority tried to duplicate The Rosa Parks Transfer Center on the South Bank, in an alley, behind a block of business buildings, and under a FREEway!
One of the country's largest parking garages was built, but there is neither Skyway or good roadway access. The recommended push into San Marco never happened...

Lo and Behold, NOBODY RODE IT!  Well... DUH!  They didn't even build it to their own planners recommendations. Needless to say the shops, food kiosk's, sidewalk vendors, and JTA Child Care Centers, NEVER HAPPENED! Always strapped for cash, with egg all over their faces, JTA quietly removed the project from the top drawer. The City Council disowned it, rather then fix it. Shell shock set in and everyone wants to be the one to distance themselves from the "wonderfully flawed Skyway..."  Had JTA been ordered to follow it's own plans and finish at least 2 complete phases of it (rather then the trumped up "shorty phases" we put on paper to appease the peasantry), today we might be wondering if the Gateway Mall Line, should cross the Trout River and link to the Commuter Rail at Dunn Avenue?

Might have been can be fixed, it's the mass transit equivalent of "delay of game." Anyone want to see our system in full operational glory? Simply goggle MOSCOW MONORAIL, and you'll see a twin system FINISHED ACCORDING TO PLAN and guess what? IT WORKS!!

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/Moscow04.html

http://www.youtube.com/v/--yXJJWI-Ec&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"%20type=

OCKLAWAHA

Ock.............I understand and agree with your point of view to a degree! Skyway needs to be either extended or shut down, one or the other, because for $7 Million a year to operate as is............its ridiculous! Public is not getting their monies worth and JTA looks like the idiots they are.............either squat or get off the pot! But do something viable and cost effective, I am tired of funding crappy projects that go no where and do nothing to enhance my life!

Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

lake........that does make sense, but would require both the City and JTA having knowledge of what to do and how to do it in a cost effective manner! Somehow I don't think that option is even being explored!

Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2010, 06:35:32 AM
Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

DING!

This Lake guy makes sense.

I know the JTA is now ending some of the routes on the Southbank at the Kings Ave Skyway station, so it looks like JTA is doing what Lake mentioned earlier. Now they just need to do more of that and the City needs to stop building parking garages in Downtown.

I have now ridden the skyway twice in a week (shocking right) and now I support it more than ever.  It really is a beautiful system.  I got on at the riverplace station both times and rode it to central station.  The first time was for art walk and the car was packed!  Last night I was meeting someone for dinner at the Landing and there were about 6 people in the car (not sure if that's the proper term).  Last night I had to wait about 4-5 minutes as the train went to kings ave and came back.  It's a really nice smooth ride and quite scenic. 

The skyway could be a huge asset if we just use it to its full potential.

QuoteThe skyway could be a huge asset if we just use it to its full potential.

Agreed.  That's what many on this board have been arguing.  Tearing the system down is really not the solution.  If it were extended and better integrated into the existing transit system it could be transformed from a joke into something viable. As it stands it is the equivalent of only building half a bridge and then wondering why people don't use it.

^ I agree.  I think two no frills stations added to the current system would be enough to help it tip.  Down riverside and east to newnan street should be considered.  Once we have a real transit center anchoring the northwest end and a real convenion center anchoring the eastern end, ridership will be enormous.
If we could integrate the station at Newnan and Bay into the newly built convention center, that would be a win win.  That would put 7 Hotels within a block of a skyway station and give convention attendees easy access to anywhere in downtown from the center.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2010, 06:35:32 AM
Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

How does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.  And, please don't confuse the usefulness of the $ky-high-way for a small and select number of die hard users or fans with acceptance by the masses.  Jax is a long way (decades? if ever?) from having an environment where this plan would be the one preferred by large and sufficient numbers of the riding public.   But, no harm in fantasizing.

Again, while Ock chooses to gloss over it, the $ky-high-way was expanded previously and it has failed multiple times by over 90% to 95% to meet projections for the system AS IS NOW.  Promises of an appropriate number of riders (versus alternative transit systems)  following still another expansion is akin to Lucy moving the ball every time Charlie Brown tries to kick it or pulling the carrot back every time someone attempts to grab it.  All the arguments advanced on these boards in favor of the expansion of the $ky-high-way exactly mirror previous arguments made for construction of its original and expanded segments.  Nothing new there.  I don't see how anyone can find these promises of a pot of gold at the end of the $ky-high-way rainbow credible.

Lastly, regardless of one's feelings for the $ky-high-way, there is so much more and better low hanging mass transit "fruit" to pick, that the $ky-high-way should be way down the list for any future investment.  IMHO, I would pursue a streetcar or commuter system that has a realistic chance to prove to the jaded citizenry at large here the true potential of a rail system, not pour money into an existing system that has repeatedly demonstrated its potential to greatly disappoint again and again.

QuoteHow does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.  And, please don't confuse the usefulness of the $ky-high-way for a small and select number of die hard users or fans with acceptance by the masses.  Jax is a long way (decades? if ever?) from having an environment where this plan would be the one preferred by large and sufficient numbers of the riding public.   But, no harm in fantasizing.

Some people will take the "path of least resistance" and continue to use the automobile.  It is tough for any transit system to compete with the speed of a personal vehicle.  But really, the point is to offer mobility choices.  Something that the Region is not truly providing right now.  Why coundn't the Skyway be one of these mobility options?  Because you personally don't like it?  

You state that Jax is decades away from an environment where this plan would be preferred.  Do you have any proof for that?  I think there is a large contingent of citizens who would actually choose to use transit if given the option- and these are people that own vehicles.  At the LRTP public meetings I attended most people wanted to talk about transit options.  Many people even like the idea of extending the Skyway, so I would argue that there are people in the area that would support it.  

If more people had the option to take the skyway from home to work, I think they would.  As it stands, the system goes from where very few people live to where a few people work.  As destinations are developed around the system and as the system expands to reach destinations, ridership will improve.  Right now the system doesn't serve any market other than the occasional south or northbank hotel visitor or me when I want chicago pizza.

Quote from: cline on March 10, 2010, 11:05:27 AM
...the point is to offer mobility choices.  Something that the Region is not truly providing right now.  Why coundn't the Skyway be one of these mobility options?  Because you personally don't like it? 

You state that Jax is decades away from an environment where this plan would be preferred.  Do you have any proof for that?  .... At the LRTP public meetings I attended most people wanted to talk about transit options.  Many people even like the idea of extending the Skyway, so I would argue that there are people in the area that would support it. 

Cline, if there was real demand by the public currently for mass transit, then the bus and $ky-high-way systems would not be allowed, even in their current configurations, to be run as the third rate systems that they are.  The public wouldn't stand for it.  My observation is JTA "gets by" because, at present, not enough people really do care.

I agree, the future looks much brighter for the demand for mass transit.  It still needs to be done right to exploit this "interest" you refer to.  We have seen too many examples of the public clamoring for something and then not sustaining its support as advertised (see the Jaguars) so we should be wary as to what it will actually take to make a success out of any given project.

I fully support mass transit options/choices, as I have posted repeatedly. I do think that we can't implement or support all the options available as we have limited financial resources, political capital, and chances to get things right.  Fail again and that "interest" you referred to will fade back away.

If one were to go through the exercise of ranking mass transit options based on economic efficiencies, public acceptance, ease of use, impact on neighborhoods, proven successes, numbers served, etc., I think that options such as streetcars, buses, commuter rail, and walk- and bike-ways would all place far, far above the $ky-high-way.  On this basis, I think the $ky-high-way has no seat at the table anytime soon, and, with the successes of the other options, maybe never.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 10, 2010, 11:19:24 AM
As it stands, the system goes from where very few people live to where a few people work.

Captain, even with the proposed extensions by Ock, it won't go to where people currently live (the stadium, Brooklyn, most of the distance to Shands, down Kings Road in San Marco).  And, I think Ock would agree, those are the outer limits of the system, even for its most ardent supporters.  So, how do you think expanding it will address your point?

I see $ky-high-way ridership improving only if people wish to move about the downtown area on it.  This would be those visitors you mentioned, a few downtown workers on their lunch hour, and a smattering of downtown residents.  Just like now.  But, these same people could generally be far better served by the more flexible, affordable, and street friendly streetcars and buses, or even just plain walking, for most trips.  So why invest more in the $ky-high-way?  One trip that the $ky-high-way makes currently that should demonstrate its potential is the river crossing yet even this has failed to produce much interest.  If that "gold standard" trip isn't attractive to users, what other trip could it make that would be more compelling?

Quote from: stjr on March 10, 2010, 10:47:16 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2010, 06:35:32 AM
Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

How does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.  And, please don't confuse the usefulness of the $ky-high-way for a small and select number of die hard users or fans with acceptance by the masses.  Jax is a long way (decades? if ever?) from having an environment where this plan would be the one preferred by large and sufficient numbers of the riding public.   But, no harm in fantasizing.

Nobody is talking about adding 10, 20, or 30 minute transfers. How long since you used mass transit STJR? Let's shoot for 45 seconds. If across the platform transfers would kill a transit system, then NYC would have been walking decades ago. The "Small and select Group" is neither, it is simply a matter of not having service at the locations or times needed by the public. Jacksonville is a long way from NOTHING, today is the future, and it looks to me like the city is waking to the idea of transit.

QuoteAgain, while Ock chooses to gloss over it, the $ky-high-way was expanded previously and it has failed multiple times by over 90% to 95% to meet projections for the system AS IS NOW.  Promises of an appropriate number of riders (versus alternative transit systems)  following still another expansion is akin to Lucy moving the ball every time Charlie Brown tries to kick it or pulling the carrot back every time someone attempts to grab it.  All the arguments advanced on these boards in favor of the expansion of the $ky-high-way exactly mirror previous arguments made for construction of its original and expanded segments.  Nothing new there.  I don't see how anyone can find these promises of a pot of gold at the end of the $ky-high-way rainbow credible.

No gloss needed from me, hell the Skyway operations center has a dart board in the break room with my photo on it! The system was "expanded" by building tiny fractional add-on's to routes that were planned as phases, and to this day, NOT ONE has ever been built out. I agree with what was said, the Skyway is like 1/2 of a bridge, incomplete. There is no pot of gold at the end of the Skyway rainbow, but if you expect it from streetcars or bottle rockets you are in for a big disappointment. Mass transit does NOT make money, and recovers very little of it's operating cost from the fare box. Anyone who promises who predicts profit from our system in ANY form is either deluded or insane. Nothing new? Really? Consider the original plan was to build a "flying train" using highway technology, and producing a profit, plus seeing some 50,000 riders, all cut from whole cloth.  The "nothing new," of today is an attempt at working a $200 Million  dollar albatross into a $300 Million dollar eagle.

QuoteLastly, regardless of one's feelings for the $ky-high-way, there is so much more and better low hanging mass transit "fruit" to pick, that the $ky-high-way should be way down the list for any future investment.  IMHO, I would pursue a streetcar or commuter system that has a realistic chance to prove to the jaded citizenry at large here the true potential of a rail system, not pour money into an existing system that has repeatedly demonstrated its potential to greatly disappoint again and again.

As the Captain said, there is nothing disappointing about the Skyway system, rather it is the planning and management of it.  Rather then bump the Skyway "way down on the list," let's show a little leadership and build all four: BRT, SKYWAY, COMMUTER RAIL and STREETCAR.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on March 10, 2010, 10:47:16 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2010, 06:35:32 AM
Short of extending, it would also benefit from being fully integrated into JTA's existing mass transit system.  This can be done by removing the DT loop routes that almost every bus takes through the area.  Instead, have the buses make limited stops DT (at the skyway's end points), allow free transfers and use the skyway and PCTs for those wanting to go to DT destinations.

How does adding 10, 20, or 30 minutes in extra time in each direction to make a transfer from a lousy bus system to a lousier $ky-high-way help either system?  The public will take the path of least resistance and JTA will not be able to force them to put up with an extra transfer when they can forgo the trip altogether through alternative choices.

You obviously haven't taken the bus through DT in a while.  What I just mentioned was better utilizing what we already have in place, not expansion.  Eliminating the DT loop would save everyone a ton of time and JTA O&M money.  The skyway is already in operation, so that cost won't increase.  However, bus times will be reduced for those who travel into DT and those who are just passing through on their way to other destinations. 

QuoteLastly, regardless of one's feelings for the $ky-high-way, there is so much more and better low hanging mass transit "fruit" to pick, that the $ky-high-way should be way down the list for any future investment.  IMHO, I would pursue a streetcar or commuter system that has a realistic chance to prove to the jaded citizenry at large here the true potential of a rail system, not pour money into an existing system that has repeatedly demonstrated its potential to greatly disappoint again and again.

I agree that implementing streetcars and commuter rail would be more beneficial to the city than expanding the skyway.  However, I do believe that Jax would be better off better utilizing and integrating it with other modes than ignoring it.

QuoteCaptain, even with the proposed extensions by Ock, it won't go to where people currently live (the stadium, Brooklyn, most of the distance to Shands, down Kings Road in San Marco).  And, I think Ock would agree, those are the outer limits of the system, even for its most ardent supporters.  So, how do you think expanding it will address your point?

I get what you're saying, but you contradict your own argument (IMO).  The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..). If we expanded to the stadium, san marco, and shands (as you propose), we would reach where thousands of people live and work and play.  Tell me you don't believe the shipyards wouldn't take off if the skyway ran past it.  

I agree that a streetcar would be more feasible for a from scratch system, but we already have a skyway.  Lake and Ock have put up the numbers for a no frill expansion line and it's not too bad.  

*smiles*

Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 10, 2010, 03:06:33 PM

QuoteCaptain, even with the proposed extensions by Ock, it won't go to where people currently live (the stadium, Brooklyn, most of the distance to Shand's, down Kings Road in San Marco).  And, I think Ock would agree, those are the outer limits of the system, even for its most ardent supporters.  So, how do you think expanding it will address your point?

I get what you're saying, but you contradict your own argument (IMO).  The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..). If we expanded to the stadium, san marco, and shands (as you propose), we would reach where thousands of people live and work and play.  Tell me you don't believe the shipyards wouldn't take off if the skyway ran past it.  

I agree that a streetcar would be more feasible for a from scratch system, but we already have a skyway.  Lake and Ock have put up the numbers for a no frill expansion line and it's not too bad.  

Interesting guys, if money were no object these would be the expansions, connections, and routes:

BAY STREET WEST:

Central Station, (Add Skywalks with Kiosk space to Omni and ATT).
Jefferson Street Station, Install demand service only using a common elevator touch pad on each car and platform.
Jacksonville Terminal, Raised and protected cross walk + a moving inclined walk that would run from Tunnel Level to Skyway Platform Level.  Tunnels would be extended (simple cut and cover construction) from the railroad Concourse to the North Side of Bay Street.  The area under Bay and under the current Convention Center Parking lot would be enlarged for retail, food and vendors.
Farmers Market at Beaver Street, (multi-modal) new station with ground level terminal tracks, divided from busway by single sheltered platforms.

STADIUM:

Central Station (see above improvements)
Commerce Station, (at Modis, BOA etc...) Less needless sprawling of the facility and more emphasis on connectivity, passenger comfort, connection's, foul weather protection, building connections and vendor space.
Newnan Station, (multi-modal) A simple affair, over the intersection of Bay, with an interesting link to the streetcar and bus interchange below.
East Bay Street Station, Convention Center or Shipyards or both, with a fixed link to the Police Station.
Fairfield Station, (multi-modal) garage connected, streetcar, BRT, bus, interchange. If built on the riverfront, I'd add River Taxi Connection's with a boarding area just steps from the monorail, buses or streetcars. This station would contain ground level cross-platform transfers, mall, food court, security, retail, services, protected walks and architecture to compliment the historic street.

NORTH LINE:

Central Station:
Hemming Plaza Station: Rebuilt with City Ticket Office, Rest Rooms, food court.
Rosa Parks Station: Add lots on east and west, landscape seating, cooling off area, vendors.
Bethel Station: nested between church, FCJ, County Health Department, a simple on demand station.
Boulevard Station: (multi-modal), a simple station located over the road next to the residential towers and apartments, station would feature two easy access busway lanes (north and southbound) simplest form of interchange station.
Veterans Station, New VA Clinic, nested into facility with food court Incorporated.

RIVERSIDE LINE:

Central Station:
Skyway Station: Retro look full service station located between Skyway shops and Riverside Avenue. Space open for vendors, retail, food, as well as bus lanes, station might be low level, if not ground level from certain elevations.
Forest Street: (multi-modal) Restrooms, retail, food, vendors, with easy access for bus, streetcar and Skyway patrons. Focus on seamless interchange, landscape shade, ease of movement, connectivity, urban lifestyle, protection from elements (heat - sun - rain - cold) in this particularly exposed area.
Art Market Station (Roselle at Park M/L): A simple virtual copy of the Commerce Station, with A emphasis on the "Art's Market theme".
Annie Lytle/Riverside Park Station, (multi-modal) station built from converted historic school, a unique stop and destination, all in one. Skyway would enter from Roselle Street and end against the building. station would include FULL FEATURE mall, security - City Ticket Office - Information, community or cinematic theater, retail, food, vendors, upscale restaurant-grill-bar-club. Broad busway lanes running east-west under the north-south Skyway tracks. Space on College Street for future streetcar at curbside.

SOUTHSIDE LINE:

Central Station:
San Marco Station, (immediate name change "Friendship Park") skywalks into Prudential, Aetna, Baptist, Baptist Medical Arts, Wolfson, Nemours. Station rebuild would include vendor space, security, micro-stores.
River Place: On demand station, Improve streetlevel access with all weather canopy's, allow vendors, reconfigure per plan.
Kings Avenue Station: (multi-modal) Rebuild with purpose, add or open up the restrooms, food vendors, Information - security, City Ticket Window. Remove the sky walk to garage. Use ramps and inclines to make the station experience child friendly.
Hilton Station: On demand station, opens left or right for garage or hotels, only on demand. Station elevated and positioned between the buildings.
SAN MARCO STATION, (multi-modal) The "new" San Marco Station, located on the west side of the Florida East Coast Railway tracks, just north of Atlantic Avenue in San Marco. Features an overpass over the railroad for pedestrians. (Child Friendly), FULL SERVICE STATION, vendors, food, retail, kiosk's, security, information, City Ticket Office.


POTENTIAL "NEXT" PHASE/S:

Saint Nicholas Station: in the St. Nicholas Business District.
Memorial Station, Memorial Hospital
Arlington Station:
JU Station:

Please note these are NOT lines and stations I would build tomorrow, but certainly would study adding them to the mix for our downtown transportation. Likewise, it is easy to see which stations would be effected if we had funding and approval to FIX THE CURRENT SYSTEM.  Please no posts about how "Skyway Bob has gone over the Cuckoo's nest." The STREETCAR is a much better vehicle for our longer term needs, however it would be just plain irresponsible to build streetcar without strengthening  the Skyway as a compliment to feed eachother.  NETWORK!! MATRIX!! Swamp-Creek-River-Sea-Ocean = They all have their place in the system.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock:

QuoteThe STREETCAR is a much better vehicle for our longer term needs

Lake:

QuoteI agree that implementing streetcars and commuter rail would be more beneficial to the city than expanding the skyway.

Captain:

QuoteI agree that a streetcar would be more feasible for a from scratch system

Gentlemen, I am easy to please tonight.  This will do just fine.  Thank you for the candor.

It would great riding the Skyway from Riverside to the Sports Complex....sounds like  a good thing.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 10, 2010, 03:06:33 PM
The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..).

Captain, this was the argument, in part, used by supporters to build the existing system.  Do you see one residential structure that the $ky-high-way inspired on its route?  Do you see one employer that developed around it?*  Nope, another failed promise.  Why do you think it will be better in Brooklyn or the Shipyards if doesn't work downtown where the most convenience could be derived?

Heck, even in San Marco, three high rise condos were built, and not one of them appears to take direct aim at leveraging the nearby $ky-high-way.  And, as I suggested before, one might think the over-the-river route would be the number one use for the $ky-high-way.  Even Ock or Lake implied this as I recall.  Guess those developers didn't see much advantage to it and they put their money where their mouth is.

* The developer of the Omni/Wachovia block actually sued to try and PREVENT a $ky-high-way station being built on their property!

Thankfully the city has no money in the foreseeable future for pie in the sky dreams. Apparently none of you are part of the 12% unemployment of our area. Anyone care to tell those displaced that we need to build a light rail system with their unemployment benefits and that we cannot start the project until half of it is funded which means they will have to starve for months before they qualify for a job which by then will have been outsourced to cheap foreign labor? Who wants to be first?

Quote from: stjr on March 10, 2010, 11:26:52 PM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 10, 2010, 03:06:33 PM
The expansion I talked about wouldn't reach any more residents than it does now, but it would make the brooklyn land more valuable and desirable for residential, and it would reach where more people work (FNF, BCBS..).

Captain, this was the argument, in part, used by supporters to build the existing system.  Do you see one residential structure that the $ky-high-way inspired on its route?  Do you see one employer that developed around it?*  Nope, another failed promise.  Why do you think it will be better in Brooklyn or the Shipyards if doesn't work downtown where the most convenience could be derived?

Heck, even in San Marco, three high rise condos were built, and not one of them appears to take direct aim at leveraging the nearby $ky-high-way.  And, as I suggested before, one might think the over-the-river route would be the number one use for the $ky-high-way.  Even Ock or Lake implied this as I recall.  Guess those developers didn't see much advantage to it and they put their money where their mouth is.

* The developer of the Omni/Wachovia block actually sued to try and PREVENT a $ky-high-way station being built on their property!

According to the October 1, 1994, issue of Railway Age Magazine, both the Omni and the Wachovia Bank are located downtown, because the Skyway attracted them. Moreover the 1994 report says that several other businesses are planning to move forward with the advancement of converting the APM to Monorail. Any property dispute was simple posturing for location.

Absolutely, a vintage streetcar system, as I proposed in a Jacksonville DDA presentation with the full backing of Jim Catlett, Jim Wells, and Eric Smith, would have been superior to the Skyway (as built).  The APM concept (automated people mover) is great for airports or department stores, but it is hardly "rapid" transit. One has to give credit to JTA for seeing this light, and dumping the APM before we built the Southside lines, creating one of the nations first (though thoroughly flawed) monorail systems. Any Amway dealer can tell you to succeed one needs to "Plan their Work AND Work their Plan..." JTA did neither with the original Skyway, as I have pointed out over and over, they not only didn't finish one single leg of the proposed system, the small portion they did finish went the opposite direction of 5 plans, 2 major national consulting firms, and 14 route proposals!!

Your statements such as "Why do you think it will be better in Brooklyn or the Shipyards if doesn't work downtown where the most convenience could be derived?" implies that the technology doesn't work. This would be wrong stjr.  It works fine in Disney, where a nearly identical technology (actually a little more primitive and manual) carries such loads as to make it one of the largest mass transit operations in the world. Seattle's has worked since 1964 without a hitch. Germany has one running since the mid-1800's.

Since there is nothing wrong with our citizens, IE: they don't have 5 legs, horns, headlights and wings, and their personalities and problems are pretty much a microcosm of Americanized urbanity nationwide. Since people live, work, and play in downtown... and since the Skyway is a proved successful technology in other cities, then our challenge is to find out what is wrong. Obviously it's not the citizen/passenger or the technology, so the trail leads right back to JTA's door, therein is the problem.

Ideally for both modes, we would have built BOTH systems in their entirety. Skyway sweeping down from Shand's to Riverside or San Marco, as well as from Jacksonville Terminal to the Stadium, and streetcars running every 10 minutes from deep inside Ortega/Fairfax/Avondale all the way up to Springfield/Durkeeville/Brentwood/Gateway.
The two complimentary systems would work together as an expansive originator and terminator network, feeding each other. Commuter Rail and Amtrak Regional would be the big dog, along with Commuter Air, all routes would go to or from their gateways. The Bus, BRT and River Taxi system would be the local forces, reaching every small pinprick on our map. I'd put money on it that we could do better, much, much, better... the above list of station's is just one example of the easy little things that would make huge friendly improvements.

You are increasingly reminding me of a guy President Kennedy once told us about. You seem to look at Jacksonville and our Skyway and say "WHY!"  In 30+ years of contact with it, I've learned to look at Jacksonville and the Skyway and say "WHY NOT?" ...and I'm very happy the professional's at Metro Jacksonville agree with me.


LAST MINUTE UPDATE FOR MTRAIN: Oh yes it does...  Watch for the Skyway and Streetcars to be up and running within 5 years, with big announcements due this fall. Keep in mind this is NOT the same funding source as utilities, or schools, parks, law enforcement or libraries, but there ARE dedicated funds which we can either use, or they'll be used in Atlanta, Chicago, or Des Moines.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 11, 2010, 01:36:35 AM
LAST MINUTE UPDATE FOR MTRAIN: [/color][/b][/i]Oh yes it does...  Watch for the Skyway and Streetcars to be up and running within 5 years, with big announcements due this fall. Keep in mind this is NOT the same funding source as utilities, or schools, parks, law enforcement or libraries, but there ARE dedicated funds which we can either use, or they'll be used in Atlanta, Chicago, or Des Moines.
OCKLAWAHA

I assume you're implying that there are Federal funds out there....maybe a special appropriation (earmark) in the new transportation authorization...otherwise, I don't see any Fed funs for construction coming here withjout having first completed the necessary environmental studies.

You'll be amazed! In fact there would be a hell of a lot more then "this" if the City Council would quit playing politics with mass transit. I'll talk to you in private if you wish, perhaps Monday?


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 05, 2010, 05:59:55 PM

Quote from: hightowerlover on July 20, 2009, 12:29:28 PM
just dont hire the guy who did the disney monorail

Now that I am re reading this the Disney train seems better than the Skyway train lol

The Disney Monorail system is among the top transit systems in the world in numbers of riders daily. In size it is pretty compact compared to New York Subway, or Los Angeles which is again approaching 1,000 miles of fixed rail transit of various types*(1).

Disney being the $$ creature that it is has built a first class LOOKING monorail, and some of the mechanical components are used by suppliers for long endurance testing. Aside from the testing and looks, Disney's system is a Yugo, and ours is closer to a Cadillac.  Automation? We win that one by a mile.  Advanced signaling? Remember that Disney wreck last year? Yeah, we win that one too. Stations? Our's have a true transit comfortable ambiance, while Disney's are more like a cattle chute.  Manual control? Disney's require manual control of every train, Jax. has the option of automated or manual operation. The manual controls are located in the locked panel in the front of each car.  (...and yes Captain, "CAR" is the proper term in North and Central America, beyond that it's "WAGON" just like any other train). Disney uses "bouncers" to keep the herd off the tracks, Jacksonville has fully automated that. If you break free of the mouse bouncers and dive on the rail, you better pray the Disney operator see's you in time to stop. In Jacksonville the instant you broke the plane of the safety line, an alarm sounds and the power is cut to the rail.




*(1) Los Angeles' current fixed rail operations include: APM/DPM, Commuter Rail, Regional Rail, Amtrak Corridor, Light Rail Transit, Heritage Interurban, Funicular (worlds shortest railway=Angels Flight Ry), Subway, BRT.

So like I have preached from day ONE, in Transit MIX IS GOOD! Think, mix, match, connect, seamless, transfer, choice, compliment, enhance... always choose the best mode for the job. What works in Riverside might not work in San Marco. The old slogan in Los Angeles said it all: "Comfort - Speed - Safety," Pacific Electric Railway.

Imagine! If Jacksonville's leadership was running Los Angeles, they would have built the Skyway 1/2 way up the Angels Flight, quit and walked away...  Amtrak? LRT? Etc? Did YOU see the bus? I didn't see the bus! What bus?


OCKLAWAHA

I found this link

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/automated-monorails?docID=0901260d8000a7e4

People who say the Skyway is ugly should look at it. I think this is the company that built the monorails cars that Jax uses. Can the track that JTA uses upgrade to these more current cars?? Does anyone know?

(http://webpages.charter.net/g.vassilakos/spec/hitsp2.gif)

Not only those but the cars and products of a dozen or more builders of off the shelf monorail trains.  Our beamway is a bit wider then most systems, but almost any order can be customized to fit. BTW, there is a model of the new Hitachi Monorail Trains, in the Skyway Offices.


OCKLAWAHA

We dont need to be worrying that much on a new monorail vehicle and more on the expansion. We all know new modern looking monorails are cool, but right now we need to worry about getting what we have useful.

Quote from: Mattius92 on June 07, 2010, 12:54:21 PM
We dont need to be worrying that much on a new monorail vehicle and more on the expansion. We all know new modern looking monorails are cool, but right now we need to worry about getting what we have useful.

I hear that, i wish they would make Terminus & Kings Ave Station like Rosa Parks Station and stop running the buses pass those stations.

Quote from: Awesomejuice on March 10, 2010, 11:18:24 PM
It would great riding the Skyway from Riverside to the Sports Complex....sounds like  a good thing.

Most definately! Many people in Riverside would use it. Probably more than Springfield or San Marco folks.

To Stephan dare...would people in your area use Skyway if it was in Springfield?? Seriously?

Listen, I'm in 6th grade, so i may not know much, but if im completely honest, a riverside extension isn't completely what i was looking for.
i don't mean to be a downer, and to lighten up, it's a good start that will.. no pun intended.. get us on a [or the] right track.
Seeing as many people vote for this, I completely support such an idea, especially with the fact that our commute involves going from riverside to downtown.
When will this be coming, and taxpayer money will help. I don't care, if the taxpayer money goes into something worthwhile, and not something worth protesting about [GO OCCUPY WALL ST!!!], it's fine.
Just as long as not all of it is coming from our now-empty pockets.
We don't want to pre-empty everything we'll have for next year, seeing as what happened in NYC in [the] 1970s.

Quote from: Ocklahawa (Did i get it right?)
   Not only those but the cars and products of a dozen or more builders of off the shelf monorail trains.  Our beamway is a bit         wider then most systems, but almost any order can be customized to fit. BTW, there is a model of the new Hitachi Monorail Trains, in the Skyway Offices.
Great. The trains should be longer, and the tube that keeps em together should be sturdy but usable ; usable in the sense of you can walk through it like a bus in NYC.. ddarn new york city is the best place ever..

Your in the 6th grade??

The skyway need to become a bike lane.  Light Rail is the answer.

When you need to ride a monorail, you just need to go MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,

-Josh

Quote from: TheProfessor on October 12, 2011, 10:27:41 PM
The skyway need to become a bike lane.  Light Rail is the answer.

A healthy mix of transportation modes, each doing what and where it does better then the other options. San Marco is a primary example of a 'Skyway Extension' neighborhood. Buses and streetcars do not make sense when the FEC RY can kill the whole schedule with a single train blocking the crossings. Imagine the Skyway originating in San Marco, then crossing the river for Rosa Parks, Blue Cross, Shand's and the stadium. Passengers originating on the Southbank would thus have a seamless ride to the north, east or west, on the Northbank. The streetcar would be superior in the immediate downtown neighborhoods with the potential to become the downtown core of a regional light rail system. Bus Rapid Transit would shine between downtown Jacksonville, Orange Park and the Beaches. Likewise a Lem Turner Road BRT route and a Post - Cassat - Blanding route would be better would be a good fit. Commuter Rail to Fernandina Beach, Palm Coast, Green Cove Springs and Gainesville would serve markets untouchable with a bus. Mixing modes, with coordinated schedules, and cross platform transfers would be a game changer at JTA.

iLenin, you are correct that a subway IS POSSIBLE in Jacksonville, after all we build railroad tunnels under the English Channel don't we? Where subway fails in Jacksonville is enormous costs and few passengers. Subways don't have to be under ground, many operate segments on the surface or elevated, but again it's the costs that make it totally impractical in a smaller sprawl city like Jacksonville. Subways make sense in places like San Francisco, or New York City because they have no vacant land and building up is their only option. Stacking thousands of apartments on top of each other makes for very dense populations, ideal subway target locations.

OCKLAWAHA

A subway in Jacksonville.....I've heard it all officially.

Quote from: Coolyfett on October 12, 2011, 10:23:04 PM
Your in the 6th grade??

yes, what is your point?
On the more considerate topic

(http://i52.tinypic.com/2h3c3kl.jpg)
we would like to thank some blog that i found about jacksonville transit.

Anyways, this would be a perfect layout for the monorail, seeing as the monorail is already wanted to spread out into Riverside.

What's the point of making a streetcar, we see where the trolley and skyway went, another failed way of public transit isn't going to get us any closer to what we want.
Why don't we work on fixing the things we have first, before we go on making a new one? Unless the streetcar can connect and transfer to an Acosta station near the YMCA, i see it as a waste.
I'm not hating on mayor peyton or whoever's in office he's done a good job at keeping people relatively happy, but JTA needs to finally settle on some form of transit.
As far as I'm concerned CSX or whoever, Amtrak, they're making enough money to make a small commuter train that runs through jacksonville and jacksonville only and extensively.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/mw8v37.jpg)
By the way, look at all of the space you find in this station. There's so much, we could fit a small shop or vending machines in there.
With all of the space we have, we COULD fit a small shop, or a machine, like I said previously, but we could also just extend the station size and we can even fit a second rail on there.
Definitely though, a riverside extension would be great.

Quote from: Ocklawaha

This seems like exactly on the mark of the Amtrack or CSX idea.

Quote from: hightowerlover on July 20, 2009, 12:29:28 PM
just dont hire the guy who did the disney monorail

The Disney monorail looks fine to me, I have no problems with it, but I do think it looks less industrial than I like (I am a NYC subway model supporter ; I am going to start collecting Munipals, LOOK . THEM . UP .) The monorail there might have some problems technically but it has never had any serious problems unless they were completed by the driver.
Honestly, the skyway extension isn't far away.

Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on July 20, 2009, 06:02:52 AM
JTA Skyway Riverside Extension

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453365348_QuTFX-M.jpg)

No one knows when or if it will ever happen, but the land has been set aside for a possible extension of the Skyway to serve Blue Cross Blue Shield, Fidelity, and Everbank.


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jta-skyway-riverside-extension (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jul-jta-skyway-riverside-extension)

Quote from: mtraininjax on October 13, 2011, 10:20:01 AM
A subway in Jacksonville.....I've heard it all officially.

Florida should never do underground rail. An elevated systeem like the skyway is the best way to do it.

Quote from: Coolyfett on August 06, 2012, 10:38:31 PM

Quote from: mtraininjax on October 13, 2011, 10:20:01 AM
A subway in Jacksonville.....I've heard it all officially.

Florida should never do underground rail. An elevated systeem like the skyway is the best way to do it.

Actually neither. Florida and Jacksonville in particular should build steel wheel on steel rail, surface transportation links. The monorail should be expanded to the stadium, San Marco, and perhaps Riverside, but before I'd do a Riverside link, I'd like to see a 'sky walk' from the current San Marco station to the insurance and hospital community.

So the Skyway is closed on saturdaays now?

It's only open on the weekends for special occasions.

Quote from: fsujax on October 12, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
It's only open on the weekends for special occasions.

LOL. Good Lord.

Riverside should be an easy station to effect. For the time being, a Brooklyn station could be a simple ground level stop, a more complex elevated station could be added as the new apartment and mixed use communities come on line. This could set the stage for eventual extension southward toward the office towers.

By far the most important expansions of the Skyway should be southward into San Marco from Kings Avenue, and eastward from Central Station to the stadium/East Side area. With the addition of streetcar on Water, Newnan, Duval and Lee, ALL bus movements (except the CT buses) through the core could be eliminated.

As for closed on weekends, this is simply the wrong way to expand it's usefulness or ridership. I would suggest that since it only takes two men to operate the system, that it could go 365/21/7. On weekends and overnight a pair of cars could be kept on each side of the river and would operate on call.

Ock, how would an extra line serving a station at the maintenance yard work operationally?  Would a train simply go back and forth between Brooklyn and Central Stations only?

Quote from: peestandingup on October 12, 2012, 07:54:13 PM

Quote from: fsujax on October 12, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
It's only open on the weekends for special occasions.

LOL. Good Lord.

this isn't new...its been that way for over 2 years now

Quote from: thelakelander on October 12, 2012, 09:43:23 PM
Ock, how would an extra line serving a station at the maintenance yard work operationally?  Would a train simply go back and forth between Brooklyn and Central Stations only?

Being as Brooklyn/Riverside would be a stub branchline just like the JRTC link, it could be done with an out and back shuttle, but it also could rotate with the JRTC line, running JRTC-Rosa Parks-Riverside in a dance with the more frequent schedules on the San Marco-Rosa Parks or San Marco-Stadium lines.

I've long thought that the Stadium and San Marco should share a single route with a physical lock-out during all but exceptional necessity. The choke point would be Central Station, but by staggering the trains, and utilizing double track east or north of Hogan, or South or west of the Brooklyn Switch, should overcome this. To do this the Rosa Parks - JRTC - Riverside line would share a working switch as they shuffled back and forth.

Ock - you are doing a great job of keeping the dream alive.

And are definitely helping me to stay motivated.

Thank's Doug. That Skyway is about my least favorite mode of transport for Jacksonville, but since we're already dropped $200 million on it, there is no reason not to spend a like amount making it a vibrant piece of the JTA network.

Quote from: fsujax on October 12, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
It's only open on the weekends for special occasions.

ooh I was in jax one weekend in sept & the thing was closed. . Must not be good ridership anymore. I guess they will eventually stop running it then?

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2012, 10:11:44 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on October 12, 2012, 07:54:13 PM

Quote from: fsujax on October 12, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
It's only open on the weekends for special occasions.

LOL. Good Lord.

this isn't new...its been that way for over 2 years now

its all. News tome .I thought it was just free, I didn't know they limited service. Was trying to show my niece & nephew how to ride it. I was also told JTA has a card reader system, I was never able to make it to Rosa Parks Staion.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 13, 2012, 02:30:16 PM
Thank's Doug. That Skyway is about my least favorite mode of transport for Jacksonville, but since we're already dropped $200 million on it, there is no reason not to spend a like amount making it a vibrant piece of the JTA network.

You can't deny that it is the best way to get over the river.  The views of downtown are unbeatable.  I regularly hear positive remarks from out-of-town visitors about the scenery.

Quote from: Coolyfett on October 13, 2012, 05:57:30 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 12, 2012, 10:11:44 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on October 12, 2012, 07:54:13 PM

Quote from: fsujax on October 12, 2012, 07:47:16 PM
It's only open on the weekends for special occasions.

LOL. Good Lord.

this isn't new...its been that way for over 2 years now

its all. News tome .I thought it was just free, I didn't know they limited service. Was trying to show my niece & nephew how to ride it. I was also told JTA has a card reader system, I was never able to make it to Rosa Parks Staion.

They've had limited skyway weekend service for a couple of years now.  It's definitely not the best way to operate mass transit.  Hopefully, some things like this will possibly change once the new CEO gets going good on his job.

New ceo? So Blaylock got the boot huh? Anyone here have one of those Star cards, how are people like those?

Dude...have you been reading this site at all over the last 6 months?

Quote from: tufsu1 on October 14, 2012, 11:18:16 AM
Dude...have you been reading this site at all over the last 6 months?

no, not sure when my last post was prior to recently. Id have to check. I posted about a month ago on Aug 6th & July 9th before that.