An open question to discuss.......
Why should we be optimistic that somehow Jacksonville will achieve it's potential?
Jacksonville is ranked near the bottom of every major U.S. City in: viable public transit, downtown vitality, walkability, innovation, culture, and environmental literacy.
Jacksonville's public schools are struggling, the convention center is inadequate, and downtown office vacancy is the highest while the rental rates are the lowest in the southeast.
Jacksonville's budgets are in a terrible deficit while basic public needs aren't being met. Jacksonville's waste managment and recycling programs are amongst the least progressive in the nation.
Jacksonville's population is one of the least educated amongst major cities, it is recognized as a violent city with a high number of shootings (including staggering statistics for police shootings and murders).
Yet - given all of this, City Leadership hasn't and appears that it won't demonstrate real leadership to initiate or implement policy change which could improve it. And, State of Florida policies haven't been helpful for Jacksonville either.
Is there hope for Jacksonville? Can it ever become a first-tier city? What are the key factors behind the failings that were mentioned above, and how can those factors be changed?
The better Jacksonville Plan is the answer. The plan isn't the end all be all of plans but it was a very progressive idea of investing in our city and the population stepped up and said we will pay to have a better city. I believe this population wants to be it's best self but does not understand having a vibrant urban component adds to the quality of life in the burbs and the beach and even the rural areas. The things that sprawled Jax happened all over the country. Industry and geography give Jax some big advantages and leadership always changes. Take heart this site has stalled bad plans in Jax and with some of the most educated progressive people in the area have found their voice. We have grown tremendously, added the NFL, have a nuclear Carrier group coming, a great road system, become a health care center, built high rise residences downtown and a port that will keep our properity on track.
The Better Jacksonville Plan's investments are mostly complete, right? The circumstances of Jacksonville that I originally mentioned are current - AFTER the Better Jax improvements....
So, how is it that the Better Jax plan is the answer to my questions & observations? How is it relevant to Jacksonville's future?
It shows the people of jax are willing to invest in this community.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on January 31, 2009, 09:22:29 PM
Why should we be optimistic that somehow Jacksonville will achieve it's potential?
Because the potential is there and not lost. If the SJ river was dried up, Peyton was elected for a life-term, and the beaches were polluted beyond use, then I would have a defeated attitude.
It's hard some times to be optimistic, but remember, the potential is still there. The city has just a "diamond in the rough" right now:)
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 31, 2009, 10:42:59 PM
It shows the people of jax are willing to invest in this community.
How successful and well-conceived were these investments?
If they were well-conceived, why hasn't this investment shown improvement in the issues I initially noted?
For an isolated instance, Jacksonville has invested a nice, new arena, but no longer has a minor league hockey team. It basically sits vacant without a regular tenant aside from JU basketball. While other downtowns have ridden the boom of the past 8 to 10 years, Jacksonville has been left behind.
What do you attribute this too - and how can improvements occur now in a slumping economy if it couldn't happen in a period of robust growth?
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 31, 2009, 09:51:14 PM
I believe this population wants to be it's best self but does not understand having a vibrant urban component adds to the quality of life in the burbs and the beach and even the rural areas. The things that sprawled Jax happened all over the country. Quote
So, if this population doesn't understand the value of a strong downtown, how can downtown become a priority?
The sprawl has happened everywhere, true. But revitilization has also happened all over the country. Cities have rediscovered their downtowns, but Jacksonville hasn't. It's stepped backwards. Many much smaller cities and are much, much farther ahead of Jacksonville in pretty much every issue I initially mentioned.
Downtown has had slow progress over the past five years, more residents, more clubs and a vocal community has organized here to lobby for it. I do not want to sound Pollyanna we have had a leadership that will not prioritize infill or transit crucial to urban life. We get an F for taking full advantage of the last boom. That said the developers still start projects here constantly.
Although I have not totally lost hope, it is certainly waning. As a Jax native(42 years), I am sick and tired of hearing about how things are about to change. Lets start with the BJP. In theory it was a great and exciting idea to improve infrastructure and build public facilities. The infrastructure projects are falling behind(partly because of Jax being punished by the state due to the ridiculous property tax reduction). The public works projects, although nice and a vast improvement over what we had, still lag behind other cities in terms of ammenities and usage. Dont even get me started on the courthouse. I guess what I am trying to say as far as the BJP is that we seem to have built venues without thinking that far into the future. There is nothing really exciting or unique about any of our venues. Just like J-ville, mediocre, middle of the pack, non aggressive, vanilla, just do enough to get by attitude. I also keep haering about how the bad economy is slowing downtown construction. Have any of you ever been on the skyscraper links on this site? Cities all over this country have cranes all over the place. And why is it that when you go to any other city, town, tent village, whatever in this country, they have an actual entertainment area downtown. We have 4 bars and not 1 restaurant open after 9 pm. That is pathetic. Any other city with the shipyards property would have turned that land into something special by now. Not us. We cant get the cruise terminal started because people are upset that they will have to clean the old cars and broken down washing machines out of their charector rich Mayport yards. I guess my whole rambling point is that we had so much potential in the past and lost it with Bush Gardens, World Golf Hall of Fame, Florida Aquarium, Six Flags and so on and so on. What makes anyone think that we will ever change. I love this place, but maybe it is just time for me to accept the fact that all we may ever be is one huge suburban city.
I promise I am not trying to hijack this thread, but to answer your question:
There is a lot wrong with Jacksonville. There is also a lot wrong with other cities in the US as well. In fact, I don't think you can count yourself as a true Jacksonville resident until you have seriously contemplated leaving this place at least 3 or 4 times. In the end, I think the reason people stay is that Jacksonville is that in the end, this place is our home. It is my home and even with its imperfections, for better or worse, I am proud of it.
Am I proud of a lot of the citizens? Nope. I don't like country music, pick-up trucks, monster truck rallies, Rush Limbaugh, rap music, gold teeth or shooting at things.
I wish more people in Jacksonville would instead take a greater interest in reading, learning, recycling, and listening to NPR. Would it kill our city to be a little more "cultured or educated"? Heck No.
Would it hurt our city to think bigger and invest in a viable downtown and connecting transit system? No! I however believe our city will grow up and so too will its people. I have faith in Jacksonville. Every improvement we get helps our city become that much better. Every new school, every computer, every teacher, new road, solar panel, downtown residence, new shop, restaurant, artist and musician that decides to open in Jacksonville will make our city and quality of life that much better.
For all its painful deficiencies, Jacksonville can take pride in its beautiful river, beaches, and climate (except for July and August). And....even though many of our citizens will never work towards any major economic or scientific breakthroughs (or be able to locate Sweden on a map for that matter), they are some of the kindest and most warm-hearted people you will ever meet. Our people are not dumb. Most have just never needed to know much about news or issues not concerning Jacksonville. It is the small town mentality of Jacksonville that keeps it back. There is potential for improvement here, you just have to look for it.
Instead of complaining about our City, why don't the disgruntled work towards making it better? Help a child or an adult learn how to read. Sit with the elderly, help the homeless get on their feet, or help clean up some trash. Our city leaders may not be very good at what they do, that we can be. We can vote them out over time, while helping our community in the meantime. Educate your friends on why good urban planning is important and why their current leaders are too short-sited and putting the city into a backwards spiral that is getting harder to climb out of. I will admit I don’t volunteer too often nor have I done much to better the community, but I imagine many readers (especially the disgruntled) haven’t done much either. That is why it is so important for each of us to get up and do something. Even small steps like donating to homeless shelters and food banks can go a long way.
You want a viable downtown? Then come downtown and patronize the local restaurants and shops. Business leads to more business. More business will eventually force local gov’t to focus on the needs of downtown and then hopefully the momentum will be there to help Jacksonville and its citizens grow up, urbanize and make our city more balanced and enjoyable place to live
Quote from: chipwich on February 01, 2009, 12:21:52 AM
I promise I am not trying to hijack this thread, but to answer your question:
There is a lot wrong with Jacksonville. There is also a lot wrong with other cities in the US as well. In fact, I don't think you can count yourself as a true Jacksonville resident until you have seriously contemplated leaving this place at least 3 or 4 times. In the end, I think the reason people stay is that Jacksonville is that in the end, this place is our home. It is my home and even with its imperfections, for better or worse, I am proud of it.
Am I proud of a lot of the citizens? Nope. I don't like country music, pick-up trucks, monster truck rallies, Rush Limbaugh, rap music, gold teeth or shooting at things.
I wish more people in Jacksonville would instead take a greater interest in reading, learning, recycling, and listening to NPR. Would it kill our city to be a little more "cultured or educated"? Heck No.
Would it hurt our city to think bigger and invest in a viable downtown and connecting transit system? No! I however believe our city will grow up and so too will its people. I have faith in Jacksonville. Every improvement we get helps our city become that much better. Every new school, every computer, every teacher, new road, solar panel, downtown residence, new shop, restaurant, artist and musician that decides to open in Jacksonville will make our city and quality of life that much better.
For all its painful deficiencies, Jacksonville can take pride in its beautiful river, beaches, and climate (except for July and August). And....even though many of our citizens will never work towards any major economic or scientific breakthroughs (or be able to locate Sweden on a map for that matter), they are some of the kindest and most warm-hearted people you will ever meet. Our people are not dumb. Most have just never needed to know much about news or issues not concerning Jacksonville. It is the small town mentality of Jacksonville that keeps it back. There is potential for improvement here, you just have to look for it.
Instead of complaining about our City, why don't the disgruntled work towards making it better? Help a child or an adult learn how to read. Sit with the elderly, help the homeless get on their feet, or help clean up some trash. Our city leaders may not be very good at what they do, that we can be. We can vote them out over time, while helping our community in the meantime. Educate your friends on why good urban planning is important and why their current leaders are too short-sited and putting the city into a backwards spiral that is getting harder to climb out of. I will admit I don’t volunteer too often nor have I done much to better the community, but I imagine many readers (especially the disgruntled) haven’t done much either. That is why it is so important for each of us to get up and do something. Even small steps like donating to homeless shelters and food banks can go a long way.
You want a viable downtown? Then come downtown and patronize the local restaurants and shops. Business leads to more business. More business will eventually force local gov’t to focus on the needs of downtown and then hopefully the momentum will be there to help Jacksonville and its citizens grow up, urbanize and make our city more balanced and enjoyable place to live
Not sure if your post was directed at me personally, or toward the general population. I'm not complaining. I'm making observations for discussion. BTW my business is downtown and I support downtown, through patronage and volunteerism. I'm looking for answers, not complaining from the sidelines.
^They are questions that should be asked and observations that should be made. No one here will criticize a person for being frustrated by downtown.
There's a lot wrong with Jacksonville, particularly pertaining to sprawl and our city leader's hostile attitude towards urban development.
However, some of your "facts" are simply false. For example, by national standards our office vacancy rates are normal, and our budget situation is actually in decent shape compared to most other cities.
Other issues you highlighted are more like partisan political issues, and have nothing to do with the quality of life for the majority of people. Most people don't care about progressive waste management or environmental literacy. And indeed, many people are happy when police officers shoot criminals.
DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE, your choice of member name would seem that you are frustrated with Jacksonville's downtown presence, not that you are just making conversation. I don't mean to start an argument, just an observation. However, I am glad to hear, and thank you; for locating your business downtown.
Why should we believe the hype? Because there is too much potential in Jacksonville to be overlooked by the private sector. I don't think Jacksonville is going to be turned into a city with a bustling downtown district overnight, but I do believe it will happen. I don't think Jacksonville is the "trend" right now, but that will change. When the economy comes back developers will be looking for a city with a strong economy, and Jax has that; I am sure you will agree with that. I also do not believe our city leaders are going to lead the way, but I also don't think they can stand in the way. Sure Downtown Vision helps, but money changes things.
Lastly, every town has their fair share of mistakes, and it's easy to find that in Jacksonville right now. There was a time when Jacksonville had a robust downtown, and I sincerly believe it will return. I have personally lived downtown for 2 years and am moving, but to another apartment downtown. Everybody that I bring downtown looks at our urban core as something that they have forgotten, but love and can't wait to come back to. I think that says our downtown has a chance.
Again, thanks for choosing to locate your business downtown, we are all in this together. Great questions, you got me stirring this morning!
I am a suburbanite who has rediscovered the downtown. In 2004 I found a little pub in the middle of nowhere downtown... London Bridge... and have been a downtown convert ever since. I have seen the crowds grow businesses open. We all know there is plenty of room for improvement but now unlike the past there are activists and advocates for the downtown area. keep the pressure on... keep the faith... keep on truckin... :)
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 08:32:09 AM
Not sure if your post was directed at me personally, or toward the general population. I'm not complaining. I'm making observations for discussion. BTW my business is downtown and I support downtown, through patronage and volunteerism. I'm looking for answers, not complaining from the sidelines.
DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE, my response was not directed specifically at you. My rambling is mostly aimed at all of us who are frustrated with our city. You have a right to be frustrated with our city and especially its treatment of downtown. I just wanted to make the point that we can be a bit more proactive do things to help our city rather than just complaining about it. We have a lot of good going for our city, we just have work together to raise our city up and not knock it down.
London Bridge is a phenomenal place.
Quote from: Joe on February 01, 2009, 10:46:50 AM
There's a lot wrong with Jacksonville, particularly pertaining to sprawl and our city leader's hostile attitude towards urban development.
However, some of your "facts" are simply false. For example, by national standards our office vacancy rates are normal, and our budget situation is actually in decent shape compared to most other cities.
Other issues you highlighted are more like partisan political issues, and have nothing to do with the quality of life for the majority of people. Most people don't care about progressive waste management or environmental literacy. And indeed, many people are happy when police officers shoot criminals.
I stand by my facts. Compare office rates and vacancy in the CBD with those in other major southeastern cities. Our vacancy is higher and our rates are lower. If you disagree please provide evidence to the contrary. Current statistics don't measure the buildings downtown which are entirely vacant and have fallen into decay, and those would add to significantly to the statistical measure.
How are waste management and environmental issues partisan? There is widespread evidence that environmental stewardship is good business, and those who Jacksonville should be attracting care about those issues and believe the city's policy's reflect the priorities of the city. Ignoring the environment puts Jacksonville's perception further behind nearly every other comparable city.
Quote from: downtownjag on February 01, 2009, 11:02:49 AM
DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE, your choice of member name would seem that you are frustrated with Jacksonville's downtown presence, not that you are just making conversation. I don't mean to start an argument, just an observation. However, I am glad to hear, and thank you; for locating your business downtown.
Why should we believe the hype? Because there is too much potential in Jacksonville to be overlooked by the private sector. I don't think Jacksonville is going to be turned into a city with a bustling downtown district overnight, but I do believe it will happen. I don't think Jacksonville is the "trend" right now, but that will change. When the economy comes back developers will be looking for a city with a strong economy, and Jax has that; I am sure you will agree with that. I also do not believe our city leaders are going to lead the way, but I also don't think they can stand in the way. Sure Downtown Vision helps, but money changes things.
Lastly, every town has their fair share of mistakes, and it's easy to find that in Jacksonville right now. There was a time when Jacksonville had a robust downtown, and I sincerly believe it will return. I have personally lived downtown for 2 years and am moving, but to another apartment downtown. Everybody that I bring downtown looks at our urban core as something that they have forgotten, but love and can't wait to come back to. I think that says our downtown has a chance.
Again, thanks for choosing to locate your business downtown, we are all in this together. Great questions, you got me stirring this morning!
My screen name has nothing to do with this topic. It was a saying an old college political science professor used. There's no connection to this conversation or discussion.
Quote from: downtownjag on February 01, 2009, 11:02:49 AM
DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE, your choice of member name would seem that you are frustrated with Jacksonville's downtown presence, not that you are just making conversation. I don't mean to start an argument, just an observation. However, I am glad to hear, and thank you; for locating your business downtown.
Why should we believe the hype? Because there is too much potential in Jacksonville to be overlooked by the private sector. I don't think Jacksonville is going to be turned into a city with a bustling downtown district overnight, but I do believe it will happen. I don't think Jacksonville is the "trend" right now, but that will change. When the economy comes back developers will be looking for a city with a strong economy, and Jax has that; I am sure you will agree with that. I also do not believe our city leaders are going to lead the way, but I also don't think they can stand in the way. Sure Downtown Vision helps, but money changes things.
Lastly, every town has their fair share of mistakes, and it's easy to find that in Jacksonville right now. There was a time when Jacksonville had a robust downtown, and I sincerly believe it will return. I have personally lived downtown for 2 years and am moving, but to another apartment downtown. Everybody that I bring downtown looks at our urban core as something that they have forgotten, but love and can't wait to come back to. I think that says our downtown has a chance.
Again, thanks for choosing to locate your business downtown, we are all in this together. Great questions, you got me stirring this morning!
I agree that the downtown has great potential. The urban fabric and river are assets which can't be recreated, or built today. But - do you think the private sector is the answer to downtown's renewal? Can you give an example anywhere where the private sector led a downtown's renewal?
The private sector hasn't overlooked Jacksonville. Look at Deerwood Park, St. Johns Town Center, JTB corridor, St. Johns County, etc. But - the private sector has overlooked downtown. So has the public sector.
On a micro-economic scale, look at projects like 11 east. Vestcor came in and turned that building into great apartments. Right now I live in Metropolitan Lofts, an old warehouse building. One12 is another example, albeit never finished due to the condition of the market. These projects, orchestrated by different developers, cumulativley revive downtown. Remember the "invisible hand" from economics? That's my take on downtown development.
The hunger for downtown is out there, right now the building I live in is over 95% occupied. The problem is that not enough developers realize Jacksonville needs more apartments downtown, not condo's. A condo is a longterm commitment, but apartments let people try it out first. Even that temporary commitment to downtown will give those considering a longterm investment more confidence in that decision. And the culture, which we desperately need here. Condo's are a great source of revenue, if they can be sold, but an active apartment community is a good investment too.
I agree that Jacksonville isn't overlooked as a whole, I was referring to the core of the city. And yes, our vacancy rates are higher than other cities in the south, but only marginally; and our city is somewhat asleep right now.
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2009, 01:09:32 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on January 31, 2009, 09:22:29 PM
An open question to discuss.......
Why should we be optimistic that somehow Jacksonville will achieve it's potential?
Jacksonville is ranked near the bottom of every major U.S. City in: viable public transit, downtown vitality, walkability, innovation, culture, and environmental literacy.
Jacksonville's public schools are struggling, the convention center is inadequate, and downtown office vacancy is the highest while the rental rates are the lowest in the southeast.
Jacksonville's budgets are in a terrible deficit while basic public needs aren't being met. Jacksonville's waste managment and recycling programs are amongst the least progressive in the nation.
Jacksonville's population is one of the least educated amongst major cities, it is recognized as a violent city with a high number of shootings (including staggering statistics for police shootings and murders).
Yet - given all of this, City Leadership hasn't and appears that it won't demonstrate real leadership to initiate or implement policy change which could improve it. And, State of Florida policies haven't been helpful for Jacksonville either.
Is there hope for Jacksonville? Can it ever become a first-tier city? What are the key factors behind the failings that were mentioned above, and how can those factors be changed?
I am a Jacksonville Patriot, and I think it would be ludicrous for anyone to suggest that I am somehow a detractor of our city.
But this assessment is bang on.
Part of being powerful enough to change the future is acknowledging the present.
Agreed. I've researched and thoroughly thought through each assertion. They are based in a full understanding of Jacksonville's circumstance and exhaustive travel and experience in other cities.
I don't think the assessment should be the question. I'm more interested in the conversation of the systematic change necessary to reverse these realities and make Jacksonville desirable and competetive as a first-tier city, or to understand if the systematic change is possible.
The progress downtown hasn't been moving along at breakneck speeds by any means, but if you ask anyone who has spent consistent time in downtown, the inner neighborhoods or the urban core as a whole there has been slow steady progress since at least 2002. It's just Jacksonville's luck that all the momentum it had was slowed or nearly haulted by the economy, bad housing market.
But I used to roam downtown on weeknights back in 2002 taking photos of all the urban decay. It was so desoloate.... a literal ghost town after hours. Now if you drive through Bay st or up Ocean st on a weekend night you'll notice a good bit of traffic and pedestrians. It's small but it's a start.
Plus, we never had an event like the artwalk or any form of downtown living until the past 5-6 years. As for the larger issues, they're out of most of our hands. All the majority of us can do is support whatever comes along and hope new business owners won't be discouraged by downtown' track record. The explosive growth in the suburbs is hard to compete with too.
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2009, 01:18:28 PM
Jacksonville is a city in every respect except that it lacks a center to focus the city energy and attention. The city center has been vacant as a direct result of the laws of unintended consequences.
Fix those small jammed levers whose function only made sense in an earlier era and the center will come back.
Get rid of the Redevelopment Agency or require that its members be New Urbanist experts instead of political appointees for a start.
Once there is a center for the local culture and educated folks to gather, their numbers and expressable purpose will grow.
Jacksonville does have a center to focus it's energy and attention. It's got an urban infrastructure which would be impossible to build today, and a history of activity and innovation to draw upon. Could it be that downtown's maladies are less a result of unintended consequences than a lack of Intended Consequences?
Sounds like semantics, but there is a huge difference between the two.
Read Mark Hinshaw's book titled "True Urbanism". It's a worthwhile discussion of New Urbanism and the true integrity of cities.
Another question, or series of questions. Does urban renewal really start with local culture? Could it start with a vibrant downtown business presence in the city center......? Which creates a demand for high-density downtown housing and public transportation to the city center......? Which creates demand for restaurants, shopping, and cultural venues.........?
QuoteAn open question to discuss.......
Why should we be optimistic that somehow Jacksonville will achieve it's potential?
Jacksonville is ranked near the bottom of every major U.S. City in: viable public transit, downtown vitality, walkability, innovation, culture, and environmental literacy.
Jacksonville's public schools are struggling, the convention center is inadequate, and downtown office vacancy is the highest while the rental rates are the lowest in the southeast.
Jacksonville's budgets are in a terrible deficit while basic public needs aren't being met. Jacksonville's waste managment and recycling programs are amongst the least progressive in the nation.
Jacksonville's population is one of the least educated amongst major cities, it is recognized as a violent city with a high number of shootings (including staggering statistics for police shootings and murders).
Yet - given all of this, City Leadership hasn't and appears that it won't demonstrate real leadership to initiate or implement policy change which could improve it. And, State of Florida policies haven't been helpful for Jacksonville either.
Is there hope for Jacksonville? Can it ever become a first-tier city? What are the key factors behind the failings that were mentioned above, and how can those factors be changed?
See what the internet and television does? For many many years the city of Jacksonville never cared to be a great city...it was just a place, nothing more nothing less. Then some minds became exposed to ideas and trends in other cities. The Jaguars came, the media"s" started ripping Jacksonville, and many didn't like what the media had to say. The Media thinks that Jacksonville should stay "in its place" and just be any other place. People from out of town even want Jacksonville to "stay in its place" Now people want more....people want Jacksonville to be more than just some place, they want to be recognized with the other names out there. Many of those types are on this very site, but what I know is, the people on this site a huge minority...the numbers of people that want more are very very low, compared to the citizens that really don't care and are satisfied with sitting around, working their 9-5s and wasting away. Maybe somethings need to be exposed in Jacksonville. The River & the Ocean are 2 of Jacksonville biggest assets IMO, yet the city doesn't take total advantage of them, in many ways only the well off can enjoy those assets...which is not a high number in Jacksonville.
The Mayor....that dude is just doing A JOB, does he love Jacksonville, I don't think he does. He is just collecting a mayor's check. I never seen him in a presser with any Jags/UF/FSU apparel or anything...not saying that is that important, but the people of Jacksonville like certain things, there are certain consistent things that all the citizens in Jacksonville can connect or identify with, yet this dude doesn't connect to any of it. When New Years or Fourth of July go down at the Landing...the Mayor should be hanging around, but I have never seen him nor has anyone ever told me they have seen him. I have seen Delany & Austin out at Jacksonville events just walking about like normal people. The Mayor has to get involved with the city hands on. What if there was no Better Jacksonville Plan....how depressing would Jax be then, what if Jax still had Wolfson Park & The Colisium? Or Burns Library as the Main Library...Jacksonville would be a total joke. Give the Landing folks what they want, and stop holding the land.
Education in Jacksonville is for white people. The Blacks have tried to educate their own, but too many blacks have become bad parents. And thats not a Jax thing it is a southern thing. How can a 33 y/o white elementary teacher tell some single black 19 girl that her 5 year old son in her class is a problem to the other kids? Now you take that situation and
multiply it by 10,000....If anyone can afford it, PRIVATE SCHOOL is just the way to go in Jacksonville. EWC is a joke, Raines a mess, Ribault a joke, Forrest total ruin, Lee depressing, Parker is a nightmare, Wolfson is a joke!! All Jacksonville has left is Paxon, Stanton & Anderson. I feel for duval county schools. Kids that I graduated with were rotten, I can only imagine the hell they are going through now.
As of now Jacksonville is the next Oakland, Baltimore, Detroit & New Orleans....the city is heading in that direction. Hats off to anyone that has the patience to change or effect the future of Jacksonville, but honestly it is going to be a lot of work and a lot of heart ache.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on January 31, 2009, 11:11:49 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 31, 2009, 10:42:59 PM
It shows the people of jax are willing to invest in this community.
How successful and well-conceived were these investments?
If they were well-conceived, why hasn't this investment shown improvement in the issues I initially noted?
For an isolated instance, Jacksonville has invested a nice, new arena, but no longer has a minor league hockey team. It basically sits vacant without a regular tenant aside from JU basketball. While other downtowns have ridden the boom of the past 8 to 10 years, Jacksonville has been left behind.
What do you attribute this too - and how can improvements occur now in a slumping economy if it couldn't happen in a period of robust growth?
A lack of a long term plan that focuses on urban connectivity. The majority of peer cities that saw their downtown's boom had master plans and leaders that encouraged new projects integrate with their surrounding area. In Jacksonville, development has continued to come in isolated, self centered fashion.
For proof we need to look no further than the convention center issue. We already have the clubs on East Bay, Florida Theater, the riverwalk, Hyatt and the Landing in close proximity to the city owned Bay Street courthouse site. A new convention center on the old courthouse property could be the glue that finally makes that whole area work.
Instead, half the community still believes its best to expand at the Prime Osborn, which will result in a badly designed transportation center and a convention center that still lacks the necessary complementing development for ultimate success (restuarants, hotels, entertainment, etc). So in the end, you spend millions on a new convention center, transportation center and streetscape on East Bay, yet they all struggle because there has been no thought put into the concept of urban integration.
Quote from: downtownjag on February 01, 2009, 12:47:24 PM
On a micro-economic scale, look at projects like 11 east. Vestcor came in and turned that building into great apartments. Right now I live in Metropolitan Lofts, an old warehouse building. One12 is another example, albeit never finished due to the condition of the market. These projects, orchestrated by different developers, cumulativley revive downtown. Remember the "invisible hand" from economics? That's my take on downtown development.
The hunger for downtown is out there, right now the building I live in is over 95% occupied. The problem is that not enough developers realize Jacksonville needs more apartments downtown, not condo's. A condo is a longterm commitment, but apartments let people try it out first. Even that temporary commitment to downtown will give those considering a longterm investment more confidence in that decision. And the culture, which we desperately need here. Condo's are a great source of revenue, if they can be sold, but an active apartment community is a good investment too.
I agree that Jacksonville isn't overlooked as a whole, I was referring to the core of the city. And yes, our vacancy rates are higher than other cities in the south, but only marginally; and our city is somewhat asleep right now.
Would you say that downtown business is what creates a demand for people to live downtown? Why is that part of the equation never discussed? I agree that Metropolitan Lofts, 11E, and Carling are good projects. I hope they're as successful as you say. But doesn't downtown residential development traditionally serve those who work downtown?
Isn't a focus on downtown residential, retail, artwalk, bars, football games, etc. focusing on the byproduct of a great downtown, rather than what establishes it and creates it in the first place? Am I mistaken to think the first step might want to be making sure downtown is a place where as many highly educated well paid people work?
Remember, One12 was originally a Major Corporate Headquarters building. So were each of the Laura Trio buildings. The Carling was a hotel. Downtown didn't thrive in the 1920's because it was a strong residential destination. It was a premier place for business in the southeast, and the retail, cultural, residential activity naturally followed.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 02:29:08 PM
Another question, or series of questions. Does urban renewal really start with local culture?
I'm not a fan of urban renewal. However, I'm of the belief that true urban revitalization starts with small private sector organic growth.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 02:50:36 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 02:29:08 PM
Another question, or series of questions. Does urban renewal really start with local culture?
I'm not a fan of urban renewal. However, I'm of the belief that true urban revitalization starts with small private sector organic growth.
What is your definition of urban renewal? How do you differentiate the definition between urban renewal and urban revitilization?
You made reference to a long term plan on one hand. And, on this hand the need for small private sector growth? Explain what you think of these two ideals more fully, and how or if they work together.
Developmental wise, the city needs to follow the 2000 downtown master plan 100%, with no exceptions for any future projects, both public and private. The city also needs to proper address the future locations of projects like the courthouse, convention center and transportation center.
Regardless of financial conditions, identify the new locations/plans and create a graphic master plan for the downtown core. This plan should show projects like bikeways, the convention center and two way street converstions in their proper place along with how the community wishes to see the surrounding area ultimately developed. As new projects come online, they should fit properly into the master plan.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2885-lakeland-sdi.jpg)
For example, Lakeland's master plan identifies existing buildings and parkings, while suggesting locations for new infill buildings, garages, parks and streetscape improvements. All new projects going into downtown must abide by the plan's concepts regardless of use.
Is a graphic master plan what is necessary to address the realities of my original post? Will that put Jacksonville in position to realize its potential?
To use an example, how is the need for a convention center identified and prioritized? Who determines the best location of a convention center? How is that done? Who's hands is that put in? Do we know that one hotel and a few recently established nightclubs is a strong enough influence to justify one convention center location over another?
Do similar questions apply to every issue surrounding Jacksonville's downtown and it's importance within the city?
Quote from: downtownjag on February 01, 2009, 12:47:24 PM
On a micro-economic scale, look at projects like 11 east. Vestcor came in and turned that building into great apartments. Right now I live in Metropolitan Lofts, an old warehouse building. One12 is another example, albeit never finished due to the condition of the market. These projects, orchestrated by different developers, cumulativley revive downtown. Remember the "invisible hand" from economics? That's my take on downtown development.
The hunger for downtown is out there, right now the building I live in is over 95% occupied. The problem is that not enough developers realize Jacksonville needs more apartments downtown, not condo's. A condo is a longterm commitment, but apartments let people try it out first. Even that temporary commitment to downtown will give those considering a longterm investment more confidence in that decision. And the culture, which we desperately need here. Condo's are a great source of revenue, if they can be sold, but an active apartment community is a good investment too.
That's a really good post man!!! Apartments & Condos, instead of just condos. Is FCCJ still going to go state? Would that create dorm rooms? Just asking, I am not too sure of the scale of what FCCJ was trying to do.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 03:00:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 02:50:36 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 02:29:08 PM
Another question, or series of questions. Does urban renewal really start with local culture?
I'm not a fan of urban renewal. However, I'm of the belief that true urban revitalization starts with small private sector organic growth.
What is your definition of urban renewal? How do you differentiate the definition between urban renewal and urban revitilization?
Urban Renewal typically involves the destruction of existing businesses, the relocation of people, and the use of eminent domain as a legal instrument to reclaim private property for city-initiated development projects.
On the other hand, to me revitalization can involve bringing a community back to life by respecting existing assets (history, building fabric, residents, etc.), incorporting and using them as building pieces for a new vibrant community.
QuoteYou made reference to a long term plan on one hand. And, on this hand the need for small private sector growth? Explain what you think of these two ideals more fully, and how or if they work together.
Take East Bay, for example. The city's long term vision is to see this area become a "district" dominated by restaurants, nightclubs, bars and other entertainment oriented businesses. This will not happen without private sector investment and risks made by businesses like Mark's and TSI. So to reach your goal, you have to first make the enviroment attractive for small businesses to cluster together to create that district. Making it attractive can be done by incorporating many of the things Stephen Dare outlined in reply #30.
QuoteRemember, One12 was originally a Major Corporate Headquarters building. So were each of the Laura Trio buildings. The Carling was a hotel. Downtown didn't thrive in the 1920's because it was a strong residential destination. It was a premier place for business in the southeast, and the retail, cultural, residential activity naturally followed.
A great point though I believe residential activity would serve as a catalyst if not as potent as a more vibrant mix of businesses would.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 03:22:31 PM
Is a graphic master plan what is necessary to address the realities of my original post? Will that put Jacksonville in position to realize its potential?
Along with the master plan, its your road map to your long term dream or vision. I believe that if you create one and make sure its followed you'll have more success than attempting to redevelopment with no clear long term development strategy in place.
QuoteTo use an example, how is the need for a convention center identified and prioritized?
Need should be determined by market studies, age of the facility and its success compared to competing facilities across the country.
QuoteWho determines the best location of a convention center?
Location should be determined by multiple things. These should include an evaulation of sites large enough to host a facility, financial conditions, public/private opportunities, existing development patterns and infrastructure.
QuoteHow is that done? Who's hands is that put in?
In Jacksonville, I believe the CVB determined the need and now its up to the council and Mayor's Office to determine the best site.
QuoteDo we know that one hotel and a few recently established nightclubs is a strong enough influence to justify one convention center location over another?
Imo, urban connectivity should be a high priority in determining a potential site. A new convention center without a large convention hotel and complementing development is useless. Looking at oour existing urban landscape, we already have a 966 unit hotel with 100,000 square feet of conference space. We also have a nightlife district and major retail/dining complex located next door to it. On top of that, the city already owns a large site adjacent to that large hotel and its 100k square feet of convention space.
We can all agree that Downtown is pretty dead. A look around the country also proves that convention centers are more attractive when located in areas with restaurants, retail and entertainment within immediate walking distance. So why create the wheel?
Can a dead DT like Jax's really support two +900 room hotels, two Landings and two entertainment districts? Is it better to focus on making your existing assests stronger or turn your back on the existing community to provide incentives to a new one that will complete with the existing? When I ask myself these questions, the answer becomes pretty simple to me.
QuoteDo similar questions apply to every issue surrounding Jacksonville's downtown and it's importance within the city?
I think downtown has to work for itself first. If it can become a viable neighborhood, every thing else will fall in line.
I believe every project in downtown should face similar questions to ensure that its properly integrated into the urban core. This way it will be easier to stimulate synergy between nearby development instead of having a core with isolated pockets of activity.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 03:27:26 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 03:00:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 02:50:36 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 02:29:08 PM
Another question, or series of questions. Does urban renewal really start with local culture?
I'm not a fan of urban renewal. However, I'm of the belief that true urban revitalization starts with small private sector organic growth.
What is your definition of urban renewal? How do you differentiate the definition between urban renewal and urban revitilization?
Urban Renewal typically involves the destruction of existing businesses, the relocation of people, and the use of eminent domain as a legal instrument to reclaim private property for city-initiated development projects.
On the other hand, to me revitalization can involve bringing a community back to life by respecting existing assets (history, building fabric, residents, etc.), incorporting and using them as building pieces for a new vibrant community.
QuoteYou made reference to a long term plan on one hand. And, on this hand the need for small private sector growth? Explain what you think of these two ideals more fully, and how or if they work together.
Take East Bay, for example. The city's long term vision is to see this area become a "district" dominated by restaurants, nightclubs, bars and other entertainment oriented businesses. This will not happen without private sector investment and risks made by businesses like Mark's and TSI. So to reach your goal, you have to first make the enviroment attractive for small businesses to cluster together to create that district. Making it attractive can be done by incorporating many of the things Stephen Dare outlined in reply #30.
Given your definitions I would favor the description of revitilization too, given that Jacksonville seems to have something to revitilize.
East Bay seems to have a Vision as an entertainment district without the context of how it works with the rest of the downtown. Wasn't it more or less established for the Super Bowl? How do we know the vision is the most sensible in the context of the entire downtown area?
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2009, 03:28:26 PM
I don't think that scrupulous adherence to the masterplan is useful for anything other than keeping some of our egregious dumbasses from executing a crackpot scheme that they thought up after 9 Dewars and waters and outraged discussion at the Club.
Its all we got that might protect us from our most dangerous domestic enemy.
I'm not saying the city's plan is the best thing out there, because it isn't. But you do need a long range plan if you really want to see the place become vibrant again. Unlike what we have, that plan should identify proposed public improvements in the core, address transit issues and determine areas where infill and preservation of existing building fabric should be encouraged. Without an idea of how things will ultimately go together, you'll end up with what we have right now. A big mess.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 03:53:53 PM
Given your definitions I would favor the description of revitilization too, given that Jacksonville seems to have something to revitilize.
East Bay seems to have a Vision as an entertainment district without the context of how it works with the rest of the downtown. Wasn't it more or less established for the Super Bowl? How do we know the vision is the most sensible in the context of the entire downtown area?
This is why I believe you need a vision plan graphically laid out to ensure that everything being developed is sensible in the context of the downtown area. Without one, you're going to end up with a mutilated Frankenstein.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 03:49:28 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 03:22:31 PM
Is a graphic master plan what is necessary to address the realities of my original post? Will that put Jacksonville in position to realize its potential?
Along with the master plan, its your road map to your long term dream or vision. I believe that if you create one and make sure its followed you'll have more success than attempting to redevelopment with no clear long term development strategy in place.
QuoteTo use an example, how is the need for a convention center identified and prioritized?
Need should be determined by market studies, age of the facility and its success compared to competing facilities across the country.
QuoteWho determines the best location of a convention center?
Location should be determined by multiple things. These should include an evaulation of sites large enough to host a facility, financial conditions, public/private opportunities, existing development patterns and infrastructure.
QuoteHow is that done? Who's hands is that put in?
In Jacksonville, I believe the CVB determined the need and now its up to the council and Mayor's Office to determine the best site.
QuoteDo we know that one hotel and a few recently established nightclubs is a strong enough influence to justify one convention center location over another?
Imo, urban connectivity should be a high priority in determining a potential site. A new convention center without a large convention hotel and complementing development is useless. Looking at oour existing urban landscape, we already have a 966 unit hotel with 100,000 square feet of conference space. We also have a nightlife district and major retail/dining complex located next door to it. On top of that, the city already owns a large site adjacent to that large hotel and its 100k square feet of convention space.
We can all agree that Downtown is pretty dead. A look around the country also proves that convention centers are more attractive when located in areas with restaurants, retail and entertainment within immediate walking distance. So why create the wheel?
Can a dead DT like Jax's really support two +900 room hotels, two Landings and two entertainment districts? Is it better to focus on making your existing assests stronger or turn your back on the existing community to provide incentives to a new one that will complete with the existing? When I ask myself these questions, the answer becomes pretty simple to me.
QuoteDo similar questions apply to every issue surrounding Jacksonville's downtown and it's importance within the city?
I think downtown has to work for itself first. If it can become a viable neighborhood, every thing else will fall in line.
I believe every project in downtown should face similar questions to ensure that its properly integrated into the urban core. This way it will be easier to stimulate synergy between nearby development instead of having a core with isolated pockets of activity.
I really question your last statement. Let me follow up.
How can any downtown, or any neighborhood function as an autonomous entity without understanding how it fits within its larger context? How can downtown be successful if it's not consciously identified communitywide as a priority? And, what of the priority if public policy runs counter to downtown's success?
I agree, of course certain areas of master plans should be flexible. For example, the uses and specific locations for private sector projects should be flexible. Short and long term fixed mass transit routes/corridors should not.
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2009, 04:00:24 PM
QuoteI'm not saying the city's plan is the best thing out there, because it isn't. But you do need a long range plan if you really want to see the place become vibrant again. Unlike what we have, that plan should identify proposed public improvements in the core, address transit issues and determine areas where infill and preservation of existing building fabric should be encouraged. Without an idea of how things will ultimately go together, you'll end up with what we have right now. A big mess.
I would give qualified agreement, except that its a problem to think that one generation has the foresight to plan with great precision for the needs and aesthetics of the next generation.
For example, I simply am not grateful to the Haydon Burns Administration for solving the race mixing problem and deciding for us that riverfront commerce was no longer necessary.
Flexibility, keeping options open and the eternal qualities are the best things we can plan for.
For example we can plan aggressively to salvage our past. We can plan for density by funding the conditions that help it to happen, we can plan to seperate industry from residential for health reasons, and we can establish principles like street access, live oak tree canopies, and design elements.
But doesnt Jack Diamond's crackpot dynamiting idea have inclusion in Jeannie Fewell's masterplan?
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 04:08:55 PMQuote
I think downtown has to work for itself first. If it can become a viable neighborhood, every thing else will fall in line.
I believe every project in downtown should face similar questions to ensure that its properly integrated into the urban core. This way it will be easier to stimulate synergy between nearby development instead of having a core with isolated pockets of activity.
I really question your last statement. Let me follow up.
How can any downtown, or any neighborhood function as an autonomous entity without understanding how it fits within its larger context? How can downtown be successful if it's not consciously identified communitywide as a priority? And, what of the priority if public policy runs counter to downtown's success?
Downtown is really a high density urban neighborhood. However, sometimes we try to force it to work for suburbanites instead of it being a self sustaining viable mixed-use community. Btw, I'm not saying it should be cut off from its surroundings or that we should not work to better connect it to nearby neighborhoods. I'm just saying we'll get farther by focusing on making it neighborhood as opposed to a suburbanite's theme park for sporting, entertainment and cultural events.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 02:50:12 PM
Would you say that downtown business is what creates a demand for people to live downtown? Why is that part of the equation never discussed? I agree that Metropolitan Lofts, 11E, and Carling are good projects. I hope they're as successful as you say. But doesn't downtown residential development traditionally serve those who work downtown?
Isn't a focus on downtown residential, retail, artwalk, bars, football games, etc. focusing on the byproduct of a great downtown, rather than what establishes it and creates it in the first place? Am I mistaken to think the first step might want to be making sure downtown is a place where as many highly educated well paid people work?
Remember, One12 was originally a Major Corporate Headquarters building. So were each of the Laura Trio buildings. The Carling was a hotel. Downtown didn't thrive in the 1920's because it was a strong residential destination. It was a premier place for business in the southeast, and the retail, cultural, residential activity naturally followed.
I'm not sure, but aren't our downtown working population numbers pretty high? Many people do work downtown, most just choose not to live there. Still a good question, though, DONTBELIEVE. And very nice thread you started, too.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 01, 2009, 03:28:51 PM
A great point though I believe residential activity would serve as a catalyst if not as potent as a more vibrant mix of businesses would.
Shouldn't residential, corporate, and retail all grow together, little by little? We can't necessarily expect to have a thriving yet discrete entertainment district, distinct from any established residential base. Nor can we expect potential downtown residents to relocate en masse without the likewise accumulation of businesses for them to work and play.
I'm sorry if what I'm saying is simply common sense (I have no expertise to offer on this subject besides common sense) but it seems each component must grow just enough to increase demand in the other areas to keep momentum going until we ultimately reach our goals for the core. Trying to focus too much on, or expecting, one factor to be the solution won't really get anything going. You'll either have a bunch of empty offices, unsold or unrented housing units, or closing businesses.
It seems development would be most organic if the private sector drives the revitalization and responds strictly to demand. The government's role would be to make downtown appealing to private development and create an environment that allows businesses to survive.
All of that said, looking at my initial assertion that there already is a healthy downtown work force, I think we can afford to up the ante now on the "live" and "play" opportunities in the core...particularly with more economic housing options (cheaper, low-end condos, and as mentioned already, more rental units). DONTBELIEVE, you're probably right that downtown corporate business is probably left out of discussion too often. No doubt, having more large companies with a presence there will only help the CBD's growth. But the way I see it right now, we need more entertainment and residential options to eliminate the current imbalance.
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 04:08:55 PM
How can any downtown, or any neighborhood function as an autonomous entity without understanding how it fits within its larger context? How can downtown be successful if it's not consciously identified communitywide as a priority? And, what of the priority if public policy runs counter to downtown's success?
Was it a priority of the community at large to create thriving business parks along JTB and Southside? Each neighborhood in Jacksonville owes whatever success it has to much more than just a community-wide decision to support its growth. Yes, downtown is a central location, and yes, the great downtowns across the country generally attract people from outlying areas, but I dont think there's any reason it cannot grow on its own. If anything, the central location, history, and natural geographic advantage should serve to aid its own rebirth...in theory.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 04:08:55 PMQuote
I think downtown has to work for itself first. If it can become a viable neighborhood, every thing else will fall in line.
I believe every project in downtown should face similar questions to ensure that its properly integrated into the urban core. This way it will be easier to stimulate synergy between nearby development instead of having a core with isolated pockets of activity.
I really question your last statement. Let me follow up.
How can any downtown, or any neighborhood function as an autonomous entity without understanding how it fits within its larger context? How can downtown be successful if it's not consciously identified communitywide as a priority? And, what of the priority if public policy runs counter to downtown's success?
Downtown is really a high density urban neighborhood. However, sometimes we try to force it to work for suburbanites instead of it being a self sustaining viable mixed-use community. Btw, I'm not saying it should be cut off from its surroundings or that we should not work to better connect it to nearby neighborhoods. I'm just saying we'll get farther by focusing on making it neighborhood as opposed to a suburbanite's theme park for sporting, entertainment and cultural events.
Isn't the "high density urban neighborhood" demand created first by a strong dense business presence in a city's CBD, with cultural venues, residential development, and bars/restaurantes a byproduct?
Aren't larger issues of public transportation, and growth management critical to direct the desired types of businesses and uses downtown?
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2009, 04:00:24 PM
Quote
For example, I simply am not grateful to the Haydon Burns Administration for solving the race mixing problem and deciding for us that riverfront commerce was no longer necessary.
Me either, howevr, FYI, they still have a sale on axe handles at Ace Hardware on Atlantic...
OCKLAWAHA
"Medium John Diamond, the pirate, has a little captain in him!"
QuoteI'm just saying we'll get farther by focusing on making it neighborhood as opposed to a suburbanite's theme park for sporting, entertainment and cultural events.
As a suburbanite my self I agree Lake... The downtown needs to be a self sufficient entity without the reliance on folks like me to spend my time and money there. I and many like me will visit the downtown for the people and atmosphere but planners cannot rely on our participation. This is one of the issues with the Landing. Someone decided that it would be a place a suburbanite might come to spend money... They clearly do not most of the time. When we are asked what the problem with the Landing is most suburbanites cite parking... If the Landing were self sufficient for downtown dwellers... parking is no longer the issue.
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2009, 03:57:25 PM
No this district did not grow out of the entertainment district vision. In fact the city could not possibly have been less helpful in the process.
It is the product of a few private citizens (Jason Grimes, Ryan Rummel, Mark Hemphill and soon to be joined by Jonathan Insetta.) It just happens to be where the city had talked about 'creating' the district.
The changes that have taken place on Bay Street have been remarkable in terms of life and the lessening of crime as well as the increased sense of safety perception.
Isn't it logical to think that crime would be naturally reduced with these types of venues next door to the police headquarters?
Do the proposed Bay Street improvements support these businesses, or does the infrastructure improvement cater to the continuing evolution of downtown as a special events district? Could it be that the proposed will support efficient traffic movement for 15-20 special events a year, at the expense of the support of these businesses the other 350 days a year?
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 04:29:08 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 04:08:55 PMQuote
I think downtown has to work for itself first. If it can become a viable neighborhood, every thing else will fall in line.
I believe every project in downtown should face similar questions to ensure that its properly integrated into the urban core. This way it will be easier to stimulate synergy between nearby development instead of having a core with isolated pockets of activity.
I really question your last statement. Let me follow up.
How can any downtown, or any neighborhood function as an autonomous entity without understanding how it fits within its larger context? How can downtown be successful if it's not consciously identified communitywide as a priority? And, what of the priority if public policy runs counter to downtown's success?
Downtown is really a high density urban neighborhood. However, sometimes we try to force it to work for suburbanites instead of it being a self sustaining viable mixed-use community. Btw, I'm not saying it should be cut off from its surroundings or that we should not work to better connect it to nearby neighborhoods. I'm just saying we'll get farther by focusing on making it neighborhood as opposed to a suburbanite's theme park for sporting, entertainment and cultural events.
Isn't the "high density urban neighborhood" demand created first by a strong dense business presence in a city's CBD, with cultural venues, residential development, and bars/restaurantes a byproduct?
I don't think so. Density deals with zoning. Nevertheless, DT already has nearly 60,000 daytime workers, an assortment of cultural venues, bars and restaurants. Unfortunately, most of it is poorly integrated or designed to not be seen from the street. Downtown is already attractive enough to pull in additional residential opportunities. We just have to find a way to remove the barriers that keep it from naturally happening.
QuoteAren't larger issues of public transportation, and growth management critical to direct the desired types of businesses and uses downtown?
I would say public transportation and growth management are two critical components of making downtown a more self sufficient urban neighborhood.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 07:44:12 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 04:29:08 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 04:18:44 PM
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 01, 2009, 04:08:55 PMQuote
I think downtown has to work for itself first. If it can become a viable neighborhood, every thing else will fall in line.
I believe every project in downtown should face similar questions to ensure that its properly integrated into the urban core. This way it will be easier to stimulate synergy between nearby development instead of having a core with isolated pockets of activity.
I really question your last statement. Let me follow up.
How can any downtown, or any neighborhood function as an autonomous entity without understanding how it fits within its larger context? How can downtown be successful if it's not consciously identified communitywide as a priority? And, what of the priority if public policy runs counter to downtown's success?
Downtown is really a high density urban neighborhood. However, sometimes we try to force it to work for suburbanites instead of it being a self sustaining viable mixed-use community. Btw, I'm not saying it should be cut off from its surroundings or that we should not work to better connect it to nearby neighborhoods. I'm just saying we'll get farther by focusing on making it neighborhood as opposed to a suburbanite's theme park for sporting, entertainment and cultural events.
Isn't the "high density urban neighborhood" demand created first by a strong dense business presence in a city's CBD, with cultural venues, residential development, and bars/restaurantes a byproduct?
I don't think so. Density deals with zoning. Nevertheless, DT already has nearly 60,000 daytime workers, an assortment of cultural venues, bars and restaurants. Unfortunately, most of it is poorly integrated or designed to not be seen from the street. Downtown is already attractive enough to pull in additional residential opportunities. We just have to find a way to remove the barriers that keep it from naturally happening.
QuoteAren't larger issues of public transportation, and growth management critical to direct the desired types of businesses and uses downtown?
I would say public transportation and growth management are two critical components of making downtown a more self sufficient urban neighborhood.
I disagree. Density is regulated by zoning, but it's occurance and success is a result of demand-driven dynamics and the creation of an infrastructure and planning policy to support it.
I agree. The same goes for sprawl. I'm not sure where the disagreement is focused on.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 09:30:50 PM
I agree. The same goes for sprawl. I'm not sure where the disagreement is focused on.
I go back to my initial post.
Is it possible, or realistic, that the infrastructure and planning policy can position Jacksonville to achieve it's potential?
Presuming it is, how? What are the prioritized specific infrastructure improvements and planning policies that can contribute to make it happen?
Yes its possible. If it can happen in cities like Charlotte, it can happen anywhere. How does it happen? First you need leaders that aren't afraid of backing a vision. As for specific things that need to be addressed in downtown, I believe Stephen hit on a series of things that need to happen in reply #30 of this thread.
Quote1. Recovering the Center and establishing a focal point for the city as a whole.
A. Removing the structural, policy and cutural barriers to private development of downtown and its surrounding districts.
a. Traffic and Parking barriers to development of small business and small business districts.
1. Remove all Parking meters and scale back enforcement of a three hour time limit.
2. Remove and redesign the traffic pattern loops that arose out of the spirit of the '71 redeveloment plan. Make most streets two way with fewer lights or put lights on a simple flashing red/yellow system.
3. Create a system of tax penalties for vacant single level parking lots to discourage their proliferation.
b. Structural Landscaping designed to create self contained and seperate physical domains of downtown should be reversed.
1. The through street in the middle of FCCJ Downtown Campus should be restored and turned at least into a pedestrian/bike/skate/scooter lane to facilitate permeability between the neighborhoods.
2. The one way streets that prevent traffic movement between downtown and Springfield should be removed. Laura, Main, and a restored Hogan thru way, Pearl, Broad and Davis should be two way avenues to allow easy access to the neighborhoods.
3. The Parisian Boulevard Nightmare Concept hatched by Jack Diamond to be created by demolishing over 15 square blocks of downtown should be immediately abandoned officially. His plan has already led to the demolition of most of the historic structures between Main and Ocean and has contributed greatly to the demise of the downtown.
4. Bike and scooter lanes should be clearly established radiating out from both the College Campus and the River.
c. Cessation of City Policies which inhibit development downtown.
1. The Sheriff's Office should no longer be empowered to block all traffic flow from Stadium and Veteran's Arena or Church events and immediately funnel all potential endusers out of downtown and its surrounding neighborhoods. On Sundays after the game, for several crucial retail and recreational hours, downtown, San Marco and Springfield are effectively blockaded, and Sheriff's Office representatives have expressed on several occasions that the office is not going to 'encourage the growth of bars' downtown.
2. The City should not be allowed to indefinitely 'landbank' property downtown in aggregate. Time limits need to be assessed and enforced which narrow the amount of time that the City or its agencies can sit as defacto absentee landlords on downtown property. Requirements to ensure the use of the buildings should be put in place even if the City does not sell the property to private developers.
3. Likewise, the City should not be allowed to use historic and downtown properties to satisfy contractual benefits with the various city Unions. The City owns and takes posession of a number of properties thoughout the county. Only these outlying properties should be available for such transactions.
4. The tremendous pressure that Fitzhugh Powell and the old guard is allowed to exert over downtown nightclubs needs to come to an end. The various nightclubs and dance spots should be able to open without the repeated harrassment of city officials like that which has been experienced by the Pearl and TSI. (not to mention the countless other forms of harrassment against clubs like The Milk Bar, MotoLounge, Christy Clarks ill fated "Heaven" and Thee Imperial)
5. The City needs to immediately create a solution to the homeless and social service issues confronting the downtown. The city core should not be the receptacle for all of the social issues imported from the largest land area County in the contiguous states. Likewise a few nuts without posession of Social Policy degrees should not be dictating the development of city policy such as the recent closing of the downtown parks and the ludicrous suggestion to put all of downtown under 24 hour surveillance.
6. The City needs to immediately school itself and hire people who are able to correctly facilitate the various tax benefits that are already available to the federally designated Empowerment and Enterprise Zones. These benefits are not being made accessible to the actual intended endusers.
d. Removal of the Various Cultural Barriers.
1. Events designed to encourage people from all walks of the cities life should be immediately scheduled.
2. Tie ins to both Edward Waters and FCCJ Campus Student activities should be created. Perhaps in the form of a mutual bookstore and bike trails leading to the municipal parks and facilities.
3. a TOP priority should be made to enhance the higher educational presence in the downtown. It is inconceivable that the Law College was simply left to abandon its horrible location on Beach Blvd and relocate to the southside along with the Art Institute even after both institutions had expressed strong interest in downtown locations.
4. The low man on the totem pole that has been Historic Preservation needs to be reversed. Tax penalties should be assessed for the demolition of historic structures that would be severe and equally matched by tax incentives and grants made available for the restoration or adaptive reuse of said structures.
tbecontinued
In short, the public sector needs to get out of the way and let the private sector and true market demands lead the way.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 01, 2009, 02:35:11 PM
As of now Jacksonville is the next Oakland, Baltimore, Detroit & New Orleans....the city is heading in that direction. Hats off to anyone that has the patience to change or effect the future of Jacksonville, but honestly it is going to be a lot of work and a lot of heart ache. [/color]
Based on some of the progress happening in all those cities, it might not be such a bad thing!
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2009, 10:09:24 PM
Yes its possible. If it can happen in cities like Charlotte, it can happen anywhere. How does it happen? First you need leaders that aren't afraid of backing a vision. As for specific things that need to be addressed in downtown, I believe Stephen hit on a series of things that need to happen in reply #30 of this thread.
Quote1. Recovering the Center and establishing a focal point for the city as a whole.
A. Removing the structural, policy and cutural barriers to private development of downtown and its surrounding districts.
a. Traffic and Parking barriers to development of small business and small business districts.
1. Remove all Parking meters and scale back enforcement of a three hour time limit.
2. Remove and redesign the traffic pattern loops that arose out of the spirit of the '71 redeveloment plan. Make most streets two way with fewer lights or put lights on a simple flashing red/yellow system.
3. Create a system of tax penalties for vacant single level parking lots to discourage their proliferation.
b. Structural Landscaping designed to create self contained and seperate physical domains of downtown should be reversed.
1. The through street in the middle of FCCJ Downtown Campus should be restored and turned at least into a pedestrian/bike/skate/scooter lane to facilitate permeability between the neighborhoods.
2. The one way streets that prevent traffic movement between downtown and Springfield should be removed. Laura, Main, and a restored Hogan thru way, Pearl, Broad and Davis should be two way avenues to allow easy access to the neighborhoods.
3. The Parisian Boulevard Nightmare Concept hatched by Jack Diamond to be created by demolishing over 15 square blocks of downtown should be immediately abandoned officially. His plan has already led to the demolition of most of the historic structures between Main and Ocean and has contributed greatly to the demise of the downtown.
4. Bike and scooter lanes should be clearly established radiating out from both the College Campus and the River.
c. Cessation of City Policies which inhibit development downtown.
1. The Sheriff's Office should no longer be empowered to block all traffic flow from Stadium and Veteran's Arena or Church events and immediately funnel all potential endusers out of downtown and its surrounding neighborhoods. On Sundays after the game, for several crucial retail and recreational hours, downtown, San Marco and Springfield are effectively blockaded, and Sheriff's Office representatives have expressed on several occasions that the office is not going to 'encourage the growth of bars' downtown.
2. The City should not be allowed to indefinitely 'landbank' property downtown in aggregate. Time limits need to be assessed and enforced which narrow the amount of time that the City or its agencies can sit as defacto absentee landlords on downtown property. Requirements to ensure the use of the buildings should be put in place even if the City does not sell the property to private developers.
3. Likewise, the City should not be allowed to use historic and downtown properties to satisfy contractual benefits with the various city Unions. The City owns and takes posession of a number of properties thoughout the county. Only these outlying properties should be available for such transactions.
4. The tremendous pressure that Fitzhugh Powell and the old guard is allowed to exert over downtown nightclubs needs to come to an end. The various nightclubs and dance spots should be able to open without the repeated harrassment of city officials like that which has been experienced by the Pearl and TSI. (not to mention the countless other forms of harrassment against clubs like The Milk Bar, MotoLounge, Christy Clarks ill fated "Heaven" and Thee Imperial)
5. The City needs to immediately create a solution to the homeless and social service issues confronting the downtown. The city core should not be the receptacle for all of the social issues imported from the largest land area County in the contiguous states. Likewise a few nuts without posession of Social Policy degrees should not be dictating the development of city policy such as the recent closing of the downtown parks and the ludicrous suggestion to put all of downtown under 24 hour surveillance.
6. The City needs to immediately school itself and hire people who are able to correctly facilitate the various tax benefits that are already available to the federally designated Empowerment and Enterprise Zones. These benefits are not being made accessible to the actual intended endusers.
d. Removal of the Various Cultural Barriers.
1. Events designed to encourage people from all walks of the cities life should be immediately scheduled.
2. Tie ins to both Edward Waters and FCCJ Campus Student activities should be created. Perhaps in the form of a mutual bookstore and bike trails leading to the municipal parks and facilities.
3. a TOP priority should be made to enhance the higher educational presence in the downtown. It is inconceivable that the Law College was simply left to abandon its horrible location on Beach Blvd and relocate to the southside along with the Art Institute even after both institutions had expressed strong interest in downtown locations.
4. The low man on the totem pole that has been Historic Preservation needs to be reversed. Tax penalties should be assessed for the demolition of historic structures that would be severe and equally matched by tax incentives and grants made available for the restoration or adaptive reuse of said structures.
tbecontinued
In short, the public sector needs to get out of the way and let the private sector and true market demands lead the way.
I don't disagree.
Can the Elected Officials back a Vision? Do Jacksonville's elected and appointed officials have the expertise, leadership, and credibility to back and lead this effort?
Our officials should not have to come up with a community vision but someone has to conduct the train. This is where elected leadership comes into play. To make things happen on a grand scale, you need leaders smart enough to put the necessary components around them to see the vision through. If this isn't done, you end up being a community who claims to want one thing (ex. rail, downtown vibrancy, density, etc.), but employs elected officials who continue to bring you more of the same.
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2009, 01:57:26 PM
The Elected officials can share a vision, but it is incumbent upon us to be able to define the elements of that vision in a coherent form, which we havent really done.
Elected officials are what they are. Political animals without any requirements for education or expertise in specific areas. Same with the appointed officials under our spoils system.
Its the career professionals that need to have the education and vision to be able to execute a plan worth living within, and unfortunately they are light on the ground. There is an underlying assumption that direction has to come from the top (elected) down, whether or not expertise exists.
But in the absence of an enunciated programme, its not really appropriate to simply bitch about things.
Back to my initial series of observations/questions from the start of this thread.
HOW is Vision/Program enunciated? Who is the "us" you refer to that are charged with defining the elements? How can the career professionals you suggested create or execute a plan without the leadership, commissioning, and blessing of the elected officials?
It's been enunciated once recently (in the 2000 Master Plan), arguably not comprehensively or effectively. In what format is a Vision Plan enunciated to be effective? How long have "us" been seeking to define such a plan?
I'm trying to understand how change can be realized, and who can lead it. Not simply bitching.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 02, 2009, 02:20:08 PM
Our officials should not have to come up with a community vision but someone has to conduct the train. This is where elected leadership comes into play. To make things happen on a grand scale, you need leaders smart enough to put the necessary components around them to see the vision through. If this isn't done, you end up being a community who claims to want one thing (ex. rail, downtown vibrancy, density, etc.), but employs elected officials who continue to bring you more of the same.
this is where the Reality Check First Coast comes in....check the website
http://www.realitycheckfirstcoast.com/
Thanks for the link!
I'm not in favor of a "new urbanist" plan for the City...sure there are areas that would be well served by mixed-use dense development...but they don't have to follow the new urbansim bible.
Also, the vision plans and zoning code re-write currently underway by the Planning Dept. is bering done by a Miami consultant that claims to focus on sustainability and urbanism.
What do we know about the code plans being rewritten.
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2009, 07:37:01 PM
Well thankfully TUFSU, you have a job in the private sector.
I wasnt aware of a New Urbanism Bible?
the way things are going, my job won't be around for long....every day I hear about someone else in the field being laid off.
as for the Bible, you found it...its called the charter of CNU....but if you don't do things in a certain way, charter members like Andres Duany blast you.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 02, 2009, 08:02:09 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 02, 2009, 07:37:01 PM
Well thankfully TUFSU, you have a job in the private sector.
I wasnt aware of a New Urbanism Bible?
the way things are going, my job won't be around for long....every day I hear about someone else in the field being laid off.
as for the Bible, you found it...its called the charter of CNU....but if you don't do things in a certain way, charter members like Andres Duany blast you.
I suggest Mark Hinshaw's book, "True Urbanism". If you read it you'll understand one perspective vis-a-vis New Urbanist philosophy as it relates to the integrity of urban planning and the revitilization of cities.
Should be required reading for anyone who has an interest which brought them to this website, and/or anyone with an interest in cities or city planning.
While the principles are good, the CNU, New Urbanism Charter, and the idea of highly prescribed transect planning is too formulaic for my tastes to apply strictly to planning & redevelopment in established cities and urban areas.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2009, 11:17:29 AM
Im an urbanist/new urbanist. New Urbanism is a set of principles and ideas, not really a rigid code.
Anyone can read the Charter and realize that there are a hundred different iterations that achieve the goals.
But walkable, sustainable communities of place are really the only ones worth living in.
I have read true urbanism as it happens, and I particularly found myself in enthusiastic agreement with his chapter on quirky commerce and businesses.
There have been some fairly sterile suburban iterations of New Urbanism, just as there have been fairly sterile iterations of broadway musicals like Hair.
Agree on all counts
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on February 02, 2009, 11:14:29 PM
I suggest Mark Hinshaw's book, "True Urbanism". If you read it you'll understand one perspective vis-a-vis New Urbanist philosophy as it relates to the integrity of urban planning and the revitilization of cities.
Should be required reading for anyone who has an interest which brought them to this website, and/or anyone with an interest in cities or city planning.
While the principles are good, the CNU, New Urbanism Charter, and the idea of highly prescribed transect planning is too formulaic for my tastes to apply strictly to planning & redevelopment in established cities and urban areas.
well said...I couldn't agree more
I agree that the new urdanism concept is sound but we need to repair the true urban areas and ensure they are built out prior to building New urban community's. There location needs to be thoroughly studied to ensure the infrastructure is already in place.
Lakelanders sharp on this issue. and more. He should run for mayor! To go on Hypes great, inspiring thread, when one talks of jax being on the low end of U.S. major cities l.a. and nyc are lower! Nycs mass transit was a necessity to exist, but now its overburdened, its deficit is worse than jax,. Los Angelos cant be mentioned with the word urban. There are problems but they dont mount up to our "cultural centers" decline. These cities are unattainable to young, "struggling" artists. I lived in nyc since87 when it began its decline. You must be a millionaire to live in manhattan, williamsburgs not much better. The art and music is much more accessible here. Its ideal for young art, and will be. but acceptence of some issues are essential. and that seems to be the a definition of a urban jacksonville. Todays economic de recession can actually be a boon to our development (as was bankruptcy threats to nyc in the 70s her greatest time (Ed Koch is god).
GREAT thread HYPE!!!
NICE POST HILLARY
Quote from: hillary supporter on February 04, 2009, 09:15:15 PM
Lakelanders sharp on this issue. and more. He should run for mayor! To go on Hypes great, inspiring thread, when one talks of jax being on the low end of U.S. major cities l.a. and nyc are lower! Nycs mass transit was a necessity to exist, but now its overburdened, its deficit is worse than jax,. Los Angelos cant be mentioned with the word urban. There are problems but they dont mount up to our "cultural centers" decline. These cities are unattainable to young, "struggling" artists. I lived in nyc since87 when it began its decline. You must be a millionaire to live in manhattan, williamsburgs not much better. The art and music is much more accessible here. Its ideal for young art, and will be. but acceptence of some issues are essential. and that seems to be the a definition of a urban jacksonville. Todays economic de recession can actually be a boon to our development (as was bankruptcy threats to nyc in the 70s her greatest time (Ed Koch is god).
GREAT thread HYPE!!!
Thank you Hillary Supporter.
Actually, NYC is full of young struggling artists - and sub-millionaires. They may not all live on the Upper East Side, or necessarily in Manhattan. Re: NYC, do you realize that if Brooklyn was a stand-alone city rather than a borough, it would be in the top-ten cities in the US in population? Urbanism in NYC is not just in Manhattan, although thats what many people think of.
Despite it's problems and the burden of it's population to its infrastructure, NYC is irresistable because of it's extraordinary culture, history, and constant activity. And, it probably has some of the greatest urban/civic open spaces of any city in the world.
Could one of downtown Jacksonville's issues be that it hasn't embraced the value of the urban culture on a community-wide level? Does that make downtown as a priority more difficult to achieve?
You mentioned acceptance of some issues are essential. What specifically do you mean?
After reading this thread I understand that the reason "progressives" have failed gain a foothold in local government is that they fail to understand that the most fundamental part of any election is electability. While I believe any number of people on this site, and for that matter, around this city, are completely capable of governing with a clear focus and vision, there are not a pleathora of electable people. That requires networks of funding, positive relationships with decision makers and a charisma to charm the stripes off a zebra. OR it requires a platform that gets people emotionally invested in whatever that platform may be, and I don't really think very many people outside of these circles get emotionally invested in parking meters or urban blight.
Jacksonville's recent history has been one of skating by, of fulfilling the minimum neighborly requirements, and creating the shell of a community. What we really need is someone who can convince people to be passionate about life in Jacksonville, and then turn around and hire competent, future-thinking and past-acknowledging administrators to advise he or she on the pertinent issues facing the city.
So, will the next great leader please stand up?
the city's implimentation(sic) of the auto is a success. and it continues today to accomodate the car. to talk of car congestion in jax is flat out an oxymoron. accordingly jax's population continues to grow, primarily with people leaving other metro areas. One phenomena is a migration from southern california, noted last year in an article in the new york times.
I believe steve kind of insinuated 1971s "consolidation" of jacksonville. This was a move on face value that gathered services from surrounding municipalities into one (the establishment of jax sherriff office and utilities, emergency services, ect) but, in effect it segregated black political power by diminishing jaxs black population, a clear majority, by infusing white suburbs into the city limits. argueably, after civil rights, those in power chose such to avoid black political dominance as in atlanta, savannah, detroit, chicago, baltimore, most major us metropolitian areas. but this is in theory. i disagree with grouping jax in the realm of oakland, detroit, baltimore, ect. i believe these areas iare in significant decline, i just cant see that in jacksonville, just because of an unrealized downtown urban movement.
Historcally, jacksonville is a city of segregation and remains so today. Jacksonville has a black experience and a white experience. this too must be accepted, if only for today.
Perhaps nyc is a city of struggling artists, but many more are avoiding it, due to economics that hinder their time to do art. Jaxs dan may and myself have left the area because of such. The physical space here in jax is our godsend to doing art. globatrons byron king is another, former artist of nycs williamsburg that resides in jax. to do art in jax also allows an artist to "be a big fish in a little pond". Such situation, although maybe viewed as self centered is essential. i myself have instant contact with all of jaxs artists, this carrys over to music contemporary also.
to many you are right to the conditions described of nycs charm. But many, many many more are drawn to nyc through flat out greed- the "financial capital of the world". it took little time for them to eliminate Noisy rock clubs of deviant characters demeaning the value of their mult million 1000 sq ft (one bath) co ops in union square.
i really share your anguish at this situation, but, imo, steves dropping of names is of little value. we need to take concrete steps, action ourselves, to make jacksonville the gem it really is. Big dunn is in the process of getting huge property in springfield uniting several to invest time and money.
Lets see what happens to economics in dt with this impending depression in front of us. like big dunn we need to approach dt property owners and negotiate purchase of their properties. but now i admit im talking as i have for many years in doing this. but only real action from us can make this happen- maybe now is the time, god im sounding like lenin!
Jacksonville's recent history has been one of skating by, of fulfilling the minimum neighborly requirements, and creating the shell of a community.
your statement is one of relevance. Acquiring a NFL Francis, a superbowl, the new auditorium, the st johns town canter, highway development, and in recent history the skyway are plausible arguments against skating by. and I'm sure a huge majority of citizens would take to your description of a shell of a community. Ask any Bosnians. But your point is true to this thread that recent history has been catastrophic to urban development. Is that where we are, dicussion of urban delepment in jacksonville. My apologies Steven!
I think the general population not wanting to exceed is not the problem. The general/majority of the population of our City, I believe, wants to be #1 or even in the top 10. But the soluition and/or start to Jax becoming more of a first class, first tier, or even world class city must start with smart, ingenious and dedicated leadership in City Government which at this time is poor in these aforementioned traits to say the least. Until we get a Mayor or Administration that's dedicated to ensuring that Jax is focused and led, in a positive and aggressive way, Jax will still have this identity problem and poor self esteem relative to other major or even mid-sized cities around the nation and even the world.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE on January 31, 2009, 11:11:49 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 31, 2009, 10:42:59 PM
It shows the people of jax are willing to invest in this community.
How successful and well-conceived were these investments?
If they were well-conceived, why hasn't this investment shown improvement in the issues I initially noted?
For an isolated instance, Jacksonville has invested a nice, new arena, but no longer has a minor league hockey team. It basically sits vacant without a regular tenant aside from JU basketball. While other downtowns have ridden the boom of the past 8 to 10 years, Jacksonville has been left behind.
What do you attribute this too - and how can improvements occur now in a slumping economy if it couldn't happen in a period of robust growth?
Poor leadership is one of the reasons why Jax has not shown improvement in these areas.
Heights Unknown