Jacksonville - Why?

[chipwich]

Not sure if your post was directed at me personally, or toward the general population.  I'm not complaining.  I'm making observations for discussion.  BTW my business is downtown and I support downtown, through patronage and volunteerism.  I'm looking for answers, not complaining from the sidelines.

DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE,  my response was not directed specifically at you.  My rambling is mostly aimed at all of us who are frustrated with our city.  You have a right to be frustrated with our city and especially its treatment of downtown.  I just wanted to make the point that we can be a bit more proactive do things to help our city rather than just complaining about it.  We have a lot of good going for our city, we just have work together to raise our city up and not knock it down.

[downtownjag]

London Bridge is a phenomenal place.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

There's a lot wrong with Jacksonville, particularly pertaining to sprawl and our city leader's hostile attitude towards urban development.

However, some of your "facts" are simply false. For example, by national standards our office vacancy rates are normal, and our budget situation is actually in decent shape compared to most other cities.

Other issues you highlighted are more like partisan political issues, and have nothing to do with the quality of life for the majority of people. Most people don't care about progressive waste management or environmental literacy. And indeed, many people are happy when police officers shoot criminals.

I stand by my facts.  Compare office rates and vacancy in the CBD with those in other major southeastern cities.  Our vacancy is higher and our rates are lower.  If you disagree please provide evidence to the contrary.  Current statistics don't measure the buildings downtown which are entirely vacant and have fallen into decay, and those would add to significantly to the statistical measure.

How are waste management and environmental issues partisan?  There is widespread evidence that environmental stewardship is good business, and those who Jacksonville should be attracting care about those issues and believe the city's policy's reflect the priorities of the city.  Ignoring the environment puts Jacksonville's perception further behind nearly every other comparable city.  

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE, your choice of member name would seem that you are frustrated with Jacksonville's downtown presence, not that you are just making conversation.  I don't mean to start an argument, just an observation.  However, I am glad to hear, and thank you; for locating your business downtown.  

Why should we believe the hype?  Because there is too much potential in Jacksonville to be overlooked by the private sector.  I don't think Jacksonville is going to be turned into a city with a bustling downtown district overnight, but I do believe it will happen.  I don't think Jacksonville is the "trend" right now, but that will change.  When the economy comes back developers will be looking for a city with a strong economy, and Jax has that; I am sure you will agree with that.  I also do not believe our city leaders are going to lead the way, but I also don't think they can stand in the way.  Sure Downtown Vision helps, but money changes things.  

Lastly, every town has their fair share of mistakes, and it's easy to find that in Jacksonville right now.  There was a time when Jacksonville had a robust downtown, and I sincerly believe it will return.  I have personally lived downtown for 2 years and am moving, but to another apartment downtown.  Everybody that I bring downtown looks at our urban core as something that they have forgotten, but love and can't wait to come back to.  I think that says our downtown has a chance.  

Again, thanks for choosing to locate your business downtown, we are all in this together.  Great questions, you got me stirring this morning!

My screen name has nothing to do with this topic.  It was a saying an old college political science professor used.  There's no connection to this conversation or discussion.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE, your choice of member name would seem that you are frustrated with Jacksonville's downtown presence, not that you are just making conversation.  I don't mean to start an argument, just an observation.  However, I am glad to hear, and thank you; for locating your business downtown.  

Why should we believe the hype?  Because there is too much potential in Jacksonville to be overlooked by the private sector.  I don't think Jacksonville is going to be turned into a city with a bustling downtown district overnight, but I do believe it will happen.  I don't think Jacksonville is the "trend" right now, but that will change.  When the economy comes back developers will be looking for a city with a strong economy, and Jax has that; I am sure you will agree with that.  I also do not believe our city leaders are going to lead the way, but I also don't think they can stand in the way.  Sure Downtown Vision helps, but money changes things.  

Lastly, every town has their fair share of mistakes, and it's easy to find that in Jacksonville right now.  There was a time when Jacksonville had a robust downtown, and I sincerly believe it will return.  I have personally lived downtown for 2 years and am moving, but to another apartment downtown.  Everybody that I bring downtown looks at our urban core as something that they have forgotten, but love and can't wait to come back to.  I think that says our downtown has a chance.  

Again, thanks for choosing to locate your business downtown, we are all in this together.  Great questions, you got me stirring this morning!

I agree that the downtown has great potential.  The urban fabric and river are assets which can't be recreated, or built today.  But - do you think the private sector is the answer to downtown's renewal?  Can you give an example anywhere where the private sector led a downtown's renewal?

The private sector hasn't overlooked Jacksonville.  Look at Deerwood Park, St. Johns Town Center, JTB corridor, St. Johns County, etc.  But - the private sector has overlooked downtown.  So has the public sector.

[downtownjag]

On a micro-economic scale, look at projects like 11 east.  Vestcor came in and turned that building into great apartments.  Right now I live in Metropolitan Lofts, an old warehouse building.  One12 is another example, albeit never finished due to the condition of the market.  These projects, orchestrated by different developers, cumulativley revive downtown.  Remember the "invisible hand" from economics?  That's my take on downtown development. 

The hunger for downtown is out there, right now the building I live in is over 95% occupied.  The problem is that not enough developers realize Jacksonville needs more apartments downtown, not condo's.  A condo is a longterm commitment, but apartments let people try it out first.  Even that temporary commitment to downtown will give those considering a longterm investment more confidence in that decision.  And the culture, which we desperately need here.  Condo's are a great source of revenue, if they can be sold, but an active apartment community is a good investment too.

I agree that Jacksonville isn't overlooked as a whole, I was referring to the core of the city.  And yes, our vacancy rates are higher than other cities in the south, but only marginally; and our city is somewhat asleep right now.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

An open question to discuss.......

Why should we be optimistic that somehow Jacksonville will achieve it's potential?

Jacksonville is ranked near the bottom of every major U.S. City in: viable public transit, downtown vitality, walkability, innovation, culture, and environmental literacy.

Jacksonville's public schools are struggling, the convention center is inadequate, and downtown office vacancy is the highest while the rental rates are the lowest in the southeast.

Jacksonville's budgets are in a terrible deficit while basic public needs aren't being met.  Jacksonville's waste managment and recycling programs are amongst the least progressive in the nation.

Jacksonville's population is one of the least educated amongst major cities, it is recognized as a violent city with a high number of shootings (including staggering statistics for police shootings and murders).

Yet - given all of this, City Leadership hasn't and appears that it won't demonstrate real leadership to initiate or implement policy change which could improve it.  And, State of Florida policies haven't been helpful for Jacksonville either. 

Is there hope for Jacksonville?  Can it ever become a first-tier city?  What are the key factors behind the failings that were mentioned above, and how can those factors be changed?

I am a Jacksonville Patriot, and I think it would be ludicrous for anyone to suggest that I am somehow a detractor of our city.

But this assessment is bang on.

Part of being powerful enough to change the future is acknowledging the present.

Agreed.  I've researched and thoroughly thought through each assertion.  They are based in a full understanding of Jacksonville's circumstance and exhaustive travel and experience in other cities.

I don't think the assessment should be the question.  I'm more interested in the conversation of the systematic change necessary to reverse these realities and make Jacksonville desirable and competetive as a first-tier city, or to understand if the systematic change is possible. 

[David]

The progress downtown hasn't been moving  along at breakneck speeds by any means, but if you ask anyone who has spent consistent time in downtown, the inner neighborhoods or the urban core as a whole there has been slow steady progress since at least 2002. It's just Jacksonville's luck that all the momentum it had was slowed or nearly haulted by the economy, bad housing market.

But I used to roam downtown on weeknights back in 2002 taking photos of all the urban decay. It was so desoloate.... a literal ghost town after hours.  Now if you drive through Bay st or up Ocean st on a weekend night you'll notice a good bit of traffic and pedestrians. It's small but it's a start.

Plus, we never had an event like the artwalk or any form of downtown living until the past 5-6 years. As for the larger issues, they're out of most of our hands. All the majority of us can do is support whatever comes along and hope new business owners won't be discouraged by downtown' track record. The explosive growth in the suburbs is hard to compete with too.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

Jacksonville is a city in every respect except that it lacks a center to focus the city energy and attention.  The city center has been vacant as a direct result of the laws of unintended consequences.

Fix those small jammed levers whose function only made sense in an earlier era and the center will come back.

Get rid of the Redevelopment Agency or require that its members be New Urbanist experts instead of political appointees for a start.

Once there is a center for the local culture and educated folks to gather, their numbers and expressable purpose will grow.

Jacksonville does have a center to focus it's energy and attention.  It's got an urban infrastructure which would be impossible to build today, and a history of activity and innovation to draw upon.  Could it be that downtown's maladies are less a result of unintended consequences than a lack of Intended Consequences?

Sounds like semantics, but there is a huge difference between the two.

Read Mark Hinshaw's book titled "True Urbanism".  It's a worthwhile discussion of New Urbanism and the true integrity of cities.  

Another question, or series of questions.  Does urban renewal really start with local culture?  Could it start with a vibrant downtown business presence in the city center......? Which creates a demand for high-density downtown housing and public transportation to the city center......?  Which creates demand for restaurants, shopping, and cultural venues.........?    

[Coolyfett]

An open question to discuss.......

Why should we be optimistic that somehow Jacksonville will achieve it's potential?

Jacksonville is ranked near the bottom of every major U.S. City in: viable public transit, downtown vitality, walkability, innovation, culture, and environmental literacy.

Jacksonville's public schools are struggling, the convention center is inadequate, and downtown office vacancy is the highest while the rental rates are the lowest in the southeast.

Jacksonville's budgets are in a terrible deficit while basic public needs aren't being met.  Jacksonville's waste managment and recycling programs are amongst the least progressive in the nation.

Jacksonville's population is one of the least educated amongst major cities, it is recognized as a violent city with a high number of shootings (including staggering statistics for police shootings and murders).

Yet - given all of this, City Leadership hasn't and appears that it won't demonstrate real leadership to initiate or implement policy change which could improve it.  And, State of Florida policies haven't been helpful for Jacksonville either.

Is there hope for Jacksonville?  Can it ever become a first-tier city?  What are the key factors behind the failings that were mentioned above, and how can those factors be changed?

See what the internet and television does? For many many years the city of Jacksonville never cared to be a great city...it was just a place, nothing more nothing less. Then some minds became exposed to ideas and trends in other cities. The Jaguars came, the media"s" started ripping Jacksonville, and many didn't like what the media had to say. The Media thinks that Jacksonville should stay "in its place" and just be any other place. People from out of town even want Jacksonville to "stay in its place" Now people want more....people want Jacksonville to be more than just some place, they want to be recognized with the other names out there. Many of those types are on this very site, but what I know is, the people on this site a huge minority...the numbers of people that want more are very very low, compared to the citizens that really don't care and are satisfied with sitting around, working their 9-5s and wasting away. Maybe somethings need to be exposed in Jacksonville. The River & the Ocean are 2 of Jacksonville biggest assets IMO, yet the city doesn't take total advantage of them, in many ways only the well off can enjoy those assets...which is not a high number in Jacksonville.

The Mayor....that dude is just doing A JOB, does he love Jacksonville, I don't think he does. He is just collecting a mayor's check. I never seen him in a presser with any Jags/UF/FSU apparel or anything...not saying that is that important, but the people of Jacksonville like certain things, there are certain consistent things that all the citizens in Jacksonville can connect or identify with, yet this dude doesn't connect to any of it. When New Years or Fourth of July go down at the Landing...the Mayor should be hanging around, but I have never seen him nor has anyone ever told me they have seen him. I have seen Delany & Austin out at Jacksonville events just walking about like normal people. The Mayor has to get involved with the city hands on. What if there was no Better Jacksonville Plan....how depressing would Jax be then, what if Jax still had Wolfson Park & The Colisium? Or Burns Library as the Main Library...Jacksonville would be a total joke. Give the Landing folks what they want, and stop holding the land.

Education in Jacksonville is for white people. The Blacks have tried to educate their own, but too many blacks have become bad parents. And thats not a Jax thing it is a southern thing. How can a 33 y/o white elementary teacher tell some single black 19 girl that her 5 year old son in her class is a problem to the other kids? Now you take that situation and multiply it by 10,000....If anyone can afford it, PRIVATE SCHOOL is just the way to go in Jacksonville. EWC is a joke, Raines a mess, Ribault a joke, Forrest total ruin, Lee depressing, Parker is a nightmare, Wolfson is a joke!! All Jacksonville has left is Paxon, Stanton & Anderson. I feel for duval county schools. Kids that I graduated with were rotten, I can only imagine the hell they are going through now.

As of now Jacksonville is the next Oakland, Baltimore, Detroit & New Orleans....the city is heading in that direction. Hats off to anyone that has the patience to change or effect the future of Jacksonville, but honestly it is going to be a lot of work and a lot of heart ache.

[thelakelander]

It shows the people of jax are willing to invest in this community.

How successful and well-conceived were these investments?

If they were well-conceived, why hasn't this investment shown improvement in the issues I initially noted? 

For an isolated instance, Jacksonville has invested a nice, new arena, but no longer has a minor league hockey team.  It basically sits vacant without a regular tenant aside from JU basketball.  While other downtowns have ridden the boom of the past 8 to 10 years, Jacksonville has been left behind.

What do you attribute this too - and how can improvements occur now in a slumping economy if it couldn't happen in a period of robust growth? 

A lack of a long term plan that focuses on urban connectivity.  The majority of peer cities that saw their downtown's boom had master plans and leaders that encouraged new projects integrate with their surrounding area.  In Jacksonville, development has continued to come in isolated, self centered fashion.  

For proof we need to look no further than the convention center issue.  We already have the clubs on East Bay, Florida Theater, the riverwalk, Hyatt and the Landing in close proximity to the city owned Bay Street courthouse site.  A new convention center on the old courthouse property could be the glue that finally makes that whole area work.  

Instead, half the community still believes its best to expand at the Prime Osborn, which will result in a badly designed transportation center and a convention center that still lacks the necessary complementing development for ultimate success (restuarants, hotels, entertainment, etc).  So in the end, you spend millions on a new convention center, transportation center and streetscape on East Bay, yet they all struggle because there has been no thought put into the concept of urban integration.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

On a micro-economic scale, look at projects like 11 east.  Vestcor came in and turned that building into great apartments.  Right now I live in Metropolitan Lofts, an old warehouse building.  One12 is another example, albeit never finished due to the condition of the market.  These projects, orchestrated by different developers, cumulativley revive downtown.  Remember the "invisible hand" from economics?  That's my take on downtown development. 

The hunger for downtown is out there, right now the building I live in is over 95% occupied.  The problem is that not enough developers realize Jacksonville needs more apartments downtown, not condo's.  A condo is a longterm commitment, but apartments let people try it out first.  Even that temporary commitment to downtown will give those considering a longterm investment more confidence in that decision.  And the culture, which we desperately need here.  Condo's are a great source of revenue, if they can be sold, but an active apartment community is a good investment too.

I agree that Jacksonville isn't overlooked as a whole, I was referring to the core of the city.  And yes, our vacancy rates are higher than other cities in the south, but only marginally; and our city is somewhat asleep right now.

Would you say that downtown business is what creates a demand for people to live downtown?  Why is that part of the equation never discussed?  I agree that Metropolitan Lofts, 11E, and Carling are good projects.  I hope they're as successful as you say.  But doesn't downtown residential development traditionally serve those who work downtown?

Isn't a focus on downtown residential, retail, artwalk, bars, football games, etc. focusing on the byproduct of a great downtown, rather than what establishes it and creates it in the first place?  Am I mistaken to think the first step might want to be making sure downtown is a place where as many highly educated well paid people work?

Remember, One12 was originally a Major Corporate Headquarters building.  So were each of the Laura Trio buildings.  The Carling was a hotel.  Downtown didn't thrive in the 1920's because it was a strong residential destination.  It was a premier place for business in the southeast, and the retail, cultural, residential activity naturally followed.

[thelakelander]

Another question, or series of questions.  Does urban renewal really start with local culture?

I'm not a fan of urban renewal.  However, I'm of the belief that true urban revitalization starts with small private sector organic growth.

[DONTBELIEVETHEHYPE]

Another question, or series of questions.  Does urban renewal really start with local culture?

I'm not a fan of urban renewal.  However, I'm of the belief that true urban revitalization starts with small private sector organic growth.

What is your definition of urban renewal?  How do you differentiate the definition between urban renewal and urban revitilization?

You made reference to a long term plan on one hand.  And, on this hand the need for small private sector growth?  Explain what you think of these two ideals more fully, and how or if they work together.

[thelakelander]

Developmental wise, the city needs to follow the 2000 downtown master plan 100%, with no exceptions for any future projects, both public and private.  The city also needs to proper address the future locations of projects like the courthouse, convention center and transportation center.  

Regardless of financial conditions, identify the new locations/plans and create a graphic master plan for the downtown core.  This plan should show projects like bikeways, the convention center and two way street converstions in their proper place along with how the community wishes to see the surrounding area ultimately developed.  As new projects come online, they should fit properly into the master plan.



For example, Lakeland's master plan identifies existing buildings and parkings, while suggesting locations for new infill buildings, garages, parks and streetscape improvements.  All new projects going into downtown must abide by the plan's concepts regardless of use.