I have often thought that Jax would benefit tremendously by having an expressway link from 1-295 on the Westside/Orange Park to Gainesville and I-75/Tampa.
If we had a quick way to Gainesville, it would be close to putting the assets of the University of Florida community including its researchers within the sphere of companies and other entities in Jax that could develop stronger partnerships for high tech research and manufacturing. UF's graduate schools would be more accessible to Jax's professional community allowing for more internships, continuing education, and graduate degree level jobs in Jax that need such programs in proximity for support. With all due respect to JU and UNF, Jax has always been criticized for lacking more varied and deeper graduate level programs to support more sophisticated and higher paying industries.
I have also noted many UF faculty living in proximity to Jax, the nearest "big city" to Gainesville, because of their desire to raise families with the greater opportunities afforded by a larger city. There are many commuters, both professors and students, between Jax and Gainesville. A stronger connection could further enhance the presence of highly educated citizens in Jax, another area where studies I have seen put us well below the national average. Such additions to the our community would be a community and economic boost to Jax as well as maybe help raise the level of expectations for what Jax can or should accomplish as a community (we need to start with higher expectations for ourselves before we can begin to achieve them).
Logistically, the link to I-75 would be a boon to the port and offer Jax-Tampa travellers an alternative and quicker route to Tampa bypassing Orlando. It also would offer another "escape" route to hurricane evacuations.
For all the reasons above, this route would also do a lot more to open up Clay County to job opportunities than any outer beltway around Jax. If such a link where successful, a cross link from it to I-95 in St. Johns County could eventually be built offering St. John's and Clay the benefits of both I-95 and I-75! That sure beats what's on the drawing boards now.
P.S. Such a corridor could also be a pathway for a future mass transit or intercity rail link.
There have been several plans floated for a Florida "WEST COAST" Freeway, running from JAX - Gainesville - Dunnellon - Tampa (More or Less). The last of these a toll road is actually built North out of Hillsboro County but stops around Dunnellon. Lack of funds, support, Politics, or "BRASS ONES" have kept it asleep for the present. I'm sure it could be a OBAMA shovel ready project if we pushed it.
Moreover, it could be a restoration of a rail route that followed the same path, and still sits on the ground over about 80% of the route. We would need to close three small gaps and rebuild the track on the balance to have a rail-highway corridor JAX-TAMPA.
The Rail Route is/was:
JACKSONVILLE - BALDWIN - MACCLENNY - INTACT
MACCLENNY - Lake Butler - Alachua (ABANDONED RIGHT-OF-WAY INTACT)
Alachua - Gainesville - INTACT
Gainesville - Archer (ABANDONED RIGHT -OF-WAY INTACT)
Archer - Dunnellon - Crystal River - INTACT
Dunnellon - Inverness - Brooksville (ABANDONED RIGHT - OF - WAY Planned for Trail project)
Brooksville - Tampa - INTACT
Something to think about!
OCKLAWAHA
If the proposed 301 bypass around Starke ever gets built, it would shave 10-15 minutes off the drive to Gainesville, making it possible to drive between the center of each city in just over an hour. The entire drive would be 60+ mph other than the Lawtey and Waldo speed traps. Unfortunately, there is strong local opposition to the bypass, as many Starke businesses claim their primary source of revenue is from drivers passing through town, and that any bypass would effectively kill the city.
http://www.us301starke.com/ (http://www.us301starke.com/)
There was an FDOT study several years ago that looked at new and upgraded highways criss-crossing the state....and it included the Tampa-Jax corridor.....thankfully Crist put the whole concept to bed as being too expensive and contributing to our sprawl problem.
That said, it is important that we protect the capacity of many of our rural highways...for example, look at what's happened to US 19 north of Tampa....now we are forced to spend $100 million each to convert intersections into overpasses/interchanges.
It is vital that US 301 be maintained as a route for freight and intercity travel...right now I can get to Tampa in about 3 hours going 301 to SR 326 to I-75....furthernmore, protect the capacity of 301 north of I-10 and then there is NO NEED for the northern outer beltway!
Since the Jax-Tampa route is only a concept, there's no way it could be "shovel ready" for the first Obama stimulus package, maybe if he has another one in year 4 or 5 ... "Shovel ready" means the final plans are complete, and if any right-of-way is needed, it is in hand. Concepts don't cut it.
However, I think I've seen a list of State "shovel ready" projects for the stimulus money, and it includes widening US301 between Baldwin and Callahan. Last time I was up there, they were working on adding lanes to A1A between Callahan and I-95. It's been awhile, so I don't know if they've finished that piece or not.
I think shovel ready is an awful reason to approve projects. I get using the money to expedite projects but each one on it's own merits please. I just wish we had one of those Mayors who wasn't using the shovel ready as an excuse not to ask. Again what is the worst that can happen they say no?
More often than not shovel ready means that all the studies have been done...and the project is feasible to move forward....which implies that it already had to pass the "stand on its own merit" test
They finshed the 4-lane project on A1A in Callahan Sometime ago. Its now 4 lane from about 4 miles ouside of Callahan, all the way to the atlantic ocean.
Great idea. I know I am biased but it could strengthen the relationship between Jax and its financial presence, and Gainesville and its academic and research capabilities.
Upgrades on US 301 seem at lot more prudent than a new highway especially when you consider the costs of ROW aquisition.
Per below, here comes the Outer Beltway Project again. I see this as another bad project, regardless of funding, for Northeast Florida. Far more urban sprawl and environmental destruction than ever created by I-295 and 9A and far less helpful than a wide range of alternative projects (such as the one initiating this thread). Further, it is not the panacea envisioned by its supporters. Rather, it will bring them a host of new and underfunded ills to their communities. It may even serve to de-emphasize what we have now by encouraging a speedier and more remote circumvention of the existing populated areas. When will we ever get off of this endless road building treadmill and learn to improve the quality of what we already have than to manufacture more low-quality quantities of our existing society?From the Florida Times Union: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-03-15/story/legislators_hope_to_get_outer_beltway_project_going
QuoteLegislators hope to get Outer Beltway project going
The $2 billion project linking I-95 with I-10 was delayed a year ago
One of the largest planned construction projects in Northeast Florida may finally be getting back on track.
The Florida Department of Transportation indefinitely delayed construction of the 46.5- mile First Coast Outer Beltway in April 2008 because of uncertainty about whether property taxes will be charged on land on which the beltway would be constructed.
Rep. Jennifer Carroll, R-Fleming Island, and Sen. Tony Hill, D-Jacksonville, introduced legislation that would exempt private companies from having to pay taxes in a public-private transportation partnership.
The state had planned to bring in a private company to finance, design, build and maintain the road because FDOT doesn’t have the money. This private company would recoup its money via tolls, making the beltway the first toll road in Northeast Florida in more than 20 years.
The road would cost about $2 billion and connect Interstate 95 in St. Johns County to Interstate 10 in Duval County.
Carroll said it’s unfair that FDOT can build a road on its own without paying taxes but a private company providing the same service would have to pay millions.
State agencies such as the FDOT are exempt from paying taxes on land they own, but it is it unclear if a private company would be charged property taxes in a public-private partnership. FDOT delayed the project because it didn’t expect any private companies to bid on if they faced property taxes.
Studies conducted by the state on the project have estimated that the beltway could generate 35,000 jobs, and it’s essential that the state moves forward, Carroll said.
Charles Baldwin , FDOT’s district secretary, said if the legislation becomes law the construction should begin within a year.
Although the recession might make private companies skittish about committing $2 billion, Baldwin insisted there is still significant interest in building the road. He points to recent deal FDOT made with a Spanish company to build three new lanes of Interstate 595 in Fort Lauderdale. The construction of those lanes is expected to cost about $1.8 billion.
Madrid based Actividades de Construccion & Servicios SA will operate and maintain that new road. But unlike the Outer Beltway, the state will set toll rates and pocket the revenue. The private company will make its money back from FDOT based on performance measures, such as how well it builds and maintains the lanes.
Baldwin said he still gets calls from companies around the globe that are interested in the Outer Beltway project.
“Our economy may be in the toilet, but there’s still money in the global economy to do this,†he said.
Jacksonville Councilman Art Graham, chairman of the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization, said the project would be a godsend to the area if it can be built soon because it would be an extra $2 billion in economic stimulus, which is roughly equal to the amount of money spent in the Better Jacksonville plan.
The organization has ranked the beltway as its top construction priority. Executive director Denise Bunnewith said Interstate 295 south of Interstate 10 is already congested and will likely get more congested without the beltway.
The new road would ease congestion in Clay and St. Johns counties while also attracting economic development to the area, Bunnewith said.
QuoteThe organization has ranked the beltway as its top construction priority. Executive director Denise Bunnewith said Interstate 295 south of Interstate 10 is already congested and will likely get more congested without the beltway.
The new road would ease congestion in Clay and St. Johns counties while also attracting economic development to the area, Bunnewith said.
That's the same thing used to justify I-295 and 9-A. A fool's gold!! They will soon have more congestion than they ever thought possible. A beltway has likely never cured congestion for good - only added to it over the long term. Once again, no common sense! How about spending the same $2 Billion on mass transit rail for the First Coast!Building this road is all about enriching developers and land owners. Nothing more and nothing less!
Quote from: stjr on March 15, 2009, 06:29:02 PM
Building this road is all about enriching developers and land owners. Nothing more and nothing less!
as Ms. Bunnewith said, it WILL alleviate existing congestion...those savings may be offset by additional traffic from future development....but the folks in Clay and St. Johns County would call that economic development!
Any excuse to get more Clay County drivers off 295 is a good thing, IMO. They are the single worst drivers in the state, well, this part at least.
The biggest benefit will be a desperately needed new river crossing for Green Cove Springs. The Shands Bridge is the scariest one I think I have ever driven on, only 2 lanes, no shoulders, and only river 5 feet from the passenger side.
If you want to see the future of what an outer beltway will bring to the table, visit Houston (I-610 and the Sam Houston Tollway).
It would be better if they kept the Shands and built a second bridge halfway between it and I-295. If traffic flow were really the major concern, that would have been the case, imo.
Other than that, the main purpose of this highway is to spread sprawl development to Clay and St. Johns. Everything else is secondary.
Quote from: stjr on March 15, 2009, 06:29:02 PM
Building this road is all about enriching developers and land owners. Nothing more and nothing less!
Quote from: thelakelander on March 16, 2009, 09:30:52 AM
Other than that, the main purpose of this highway is to spread sprawl development to Clay and St. Johns. Everything else is secondary.
Exactly - no effort has been made to find another way to alleviate existing congestion outside of building the beltway, so there's no way that can be the main reason.
I would think that with where we are economically that these types of projects would be pushed back.
I can see how a $2 billion privately funded road project can spur thousands of jobs in the road construction industry. However, its debateable if we're talking about this as a long term solution to congestion in Jacksonville.
QuoteThe biggest benefit will be a desperately needed new river crossing for Green Cove Springs. The Shands Bridge is the scariest one I think I have ever driven on, only 2 lanes, no shoulders, and only river 5 feet from the passenger side.
Then, maybe, you haven't been over the Chesapeake Bay bridge in Maryland connecting to it's Eastern Shore. Having a fear of heights, this narrow laned, 186' high, 4.3 mile bridge, with open side rails and buffeting winds is such a nightmare for people they even have paid drivers available to drive your car over! It gives me chills just recollecting my very careful drive over it a few years ago. Never again.
Here is its Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge
I think the worst I've ever driven on was the old bridge replaced in 2005 by the Arthur Ravenel Jr. Bridge in Charleston, SC.
Quote(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Grace_Memorial_Bridge_08-08-1929.jpg)
The first bridge to cross the lower Cooper River opened in 1929, eventually named the John P. Grace Memorial Bridge for former Charleston mayor John P. Grace, who spearheaded the project. The main span of the double cantilever truss bridge was the fifth longest in the world at 1,050 feet (320 m) and soared 150 feet (46 m) above the river. The main span of the second cantilever was the twelfth-longest in the world. The total length of the structure was about 2.7 miles (4.3 km). Following a 17 month construction at a cost of $6 million, it opened with a 3 day celebration that attracted visitors from around the globe. Engineers and critics proclaimed colorful descriptions of the unique structure, deeming it "the first roller-coaster bridge" and citing that "steep approaches, stupendous height, extremely narrow width, and a sharp curve at the dip conspire to excite and alarm the motorist." Privately owned originally, a 50-cent toll was charged for car and driver to cross. In 1943 the state of South Carolina purchased the bridge, and the tolls were lifted in 1946.
By the 1960s the Grace Memorial Bridge had become insufficient, with its two narrow 10-foot (3 m) lanes built for Ford Model A's and its steep grades of up to 6 percent. A new bridge was constructed alongside and parallel to it. Named for the then-South Carolina Highway Commissioner, the Silas N. Pearman Bridge opened in 1966 at cost of $15 million. Its three lanes, at a modern 12-foot (3.7 m) width, opened to northbound traffic while its older counterpart carried the southbound traffic into downtown Charleston. One lane was reversible on the Pearman bridge, which led to signs warning "Use lanes with green arrow" and "Do not use red X lane" on the bridge.
The two truss bridges had become functionally obsolete by 1979. Extensive metal deterioration caused by the lack of maintenance shortly after Grace Bridge's tolls were removed limited the capacity of the older Grace bridge to ten ton vehicles (later five tons), and the reversible lane on the Pearman was eliminated (it had been able to switch to three lanes northbound for rush hour traffic), making that lane southbound permanently, diverting all heavy trucks, buses, and recreational vehicles to that lane on the Pearman bridge. Neither of the bridges had emergency lanes, and the Pearman bridge had no median between the northbound and southbound lanes because of its reversible lane, and it was not until 2002 when flexible barriers were added to the Pearman bridge to prevent head-on collisions.
Furthermore, the vertical clearance above the river â€" once among the highest in the world â€" could no longer accommodate modern shipping vessels. Three of Charleston’s four shipping terminals are situated up the Cooper and Wando Rivers, and the limited bridge clearance excluded the access of ships that would otherwise be beneficial to the economy of South Carolina. Now that the old bridges are disassembled, the world’s largest modern container ships are able to access all terminals of the nation's fourth-largest container port.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ravenel_Jr._Bridge
Quote from: stjr on March 16, 2009, 11:46:40 AM
QuoteThe biggest benefit will be a desperately needed new river crossing for Green Cove Springs. The Shands Bridge is the scariest one I think I have ever driven on, only 2 lanes, no shoulders, and only river 5 feet from the passenger side.
Then, maybe, you haven't been over the Chesapeake Bay bridge in Maryland connecting to it's Eastern Shore. Having a fear of heights, this narrow laned, 186' high, 4.3 mile bridge, with open side rails and buffeting winds is such a nightmare for people they even have paid drivers available to drive your car over! It gives me chills just recollecting my very careful drive over it a few years ago. Never again.
Maybe I drove over it on some good days but I never had a problem with the Tunnel Bridge.
That Charleston bridge was a nightmare. I was terrified of it as a child.
Regarding the thread topic ... I certainly dreamed of a freeway between Jax and Gville many times. When I went to grad school at UF, I despised how a 70 mile trip could sometimes take 2 hours!
However, such a freeway would probably be worthless if it just followed the path of 301. As someone else said, you can already drive most of 301 at freeway speeds. Trust me. I regularly drove it at over 70mph, and you are perfectly fine as long as you respect the speed traps. Unless you are going to build a completely new route that shaves off even more distance (and that would be cost prohibitive) a new freeway wouldn't be a huge improvement. You could approximate intersate speeds much cheaper by putting in bypasses for Starke and Waldo.
To me, the biggest problem is still the lack of options to cut through the suburbs. If you live several miles South of downtown (which is most people these days) you are faced with a no-win situation. Either you drive 70ish miles by fighting through Orange Park traffic and small country roads, or you drive 90ish miles and save maybe 10 minutes by doubling back to I-10 and 301.
My ideal situation would be to connect Collins road with I-295 and extend it all the way out to 301 (the right of way is all there - for now). That way you wouldn't have to chose between Blanding and needless extra miles. However, unless the city land-banked the surrounding properties as preservation land, it would just lead to more sprawling subdivisions anyway.
Copperfiend, I don't think stjr is talking about the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel (U.S. 13) connecting Norfolk to the southern tip of the Delmarva Peninsula. I think he's talking about the Bay Bridge (U.S. 50) connecting Annapolis to Maryland's Eastern Shore. My friends and I used to take that route all the time from DC to Dewey Beach, Delaware, and I knew plenty of people who were terrified to drive over that bridge.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge_2.jpg
Quote from: Traveller on March 16, 2009, 12:12:02 PM
Copperfiend, I don't think stjr is talking about the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel (U.S. 13) connecting Norfolk to the southern tip of the Delmarva Peninsula. I think he's talking about the Bay Bridge (U.S. 50) connecting Annapolis to Maryland's Eastern Shore. My friends and I used to take that route all the time from DC to Dewey Beach, Delaware, and I knew plenty of people who were terrified to drive over that bridge.
Correct, Traveller. Thanks for making it clear. Lake's Charleston bridge looks like a real contender also. I am glad I never had the "privilege" to challenge it.
It's a great ride over that monster north from Chas into Mt. Pleasant. Truly massive and awe-inspiring.
Isn't there an existing rail line from like Gainesville north to somewhere around the I-10/301 junction? Couldn't we do a rail line from downtown outwards down Beaver/I-10, then south to parallel 301 most of the way down? Or at least into whichever of those speed-trap towns are further south?
Why build freeway when there are existing rail lines?
Oh yea - this is the real world, where we work harder and not smarter. :D
The Bay Bridge - Annapolis, MD
(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/8337771.jpg)
The old John P. Grace Bridge - Charleston, SC.
(http://wildcabbage.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/two.jpg)
I think some portions of the rail line between Jax and Gainesville have been removed. Nevertheless, 301 is good enough for auto transit. If better transportation is desired between Jax and Gainesville, rail should be explored.
Quote from: Traveller on March 16, 2009, 12:12:02 PM
Copperfiend, I don't think stjr is talking about the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel (U.S. 13) connecting Norfolk to the southern tip of the Delmarva Peninsula. I think he's talking about the Bay Bridge (U.S. 50) connecting Annapolis to Maryland's Eastern Shore. My friends and I used to take that route all the time from DC to Dewey Beach, Delaware, and I knew plenty of people who were terrified to drive over that bridge.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Chesapeake_Bay_Bridge_2.jpg
My mistake
QuoteMy ideal situation would be to connect Collins road with I-295 and extend it all the way out to 301 (the right of way is all there - for now). That way you wouldn't have to chose between Blanding and needless extra miles. However, unless the city land-banked the surrounding properties as preservation land, it would just lead to more sprawling subdivisions anyway.
A new Collins/I295 interchange is currently under construction. However the idea to extend Collins to 301 may not be easily. Firstly, Cecil would be in direct conflict unless the road turned more to the south beyond Brannan-Chaffee. Secondly, the area south and west of Cecil is Jennings State Forest.
Extending Collins to Brannan-Chaffee would be a great idea though, and would aid with the limited connectivity of that area.
*** Correction: An overpass at Collins and I295 is under construction, however, it's being built with the anticipation of a full interchange to be started sometime in 2010. http://www.northfloridaroads.com/i295/projects/details.aspx?ProjectID=163
Yeah, extending Collins to 301 is just my ideal scenario. I know it won't happen. Although there's actually enough right-of-way between the Southern edge of Cecil and the Northern edge of Jennings State Forest. In fact, they already have roads running most of the way along the border. Then Collins could just swerve North or South to avoid Maxville. The biggest issue is that Oakleaf keeps expanding, and it's probably only a matter of time before they build something in the way.
But like you said, extending Collins at least to Brannan-Chaffee would be great. They seem to have preserved the right-of-way for it. If you're going to build an asinine outer-beltway collector in the middle of nowhere, you might as well implement as much of a grid as possible while you still can.
But doesn't Oaklead keep expanding into Clay County? I looked on Google and it looks like Collins could be extended past Oakleaf at least. But if my memory serves me correctly, there is some of power station at the end of Collins near Shindler.
There is a substation at that intersection, but there is still room for a new roadway to pass by it between the two existing sub-divisions. The only barrier I can see the the one residence that appears to be directly in line with the roadway.
Also, this extension would intersect Old Middleburg which would also contribute to the connectivity.
And if you really wanted to up the Westside connectivity, there's also enough room (if you get a little creative with power line easments) to extent Morse Ave at both ends, and have it run all the way from Roosevelt to Chaffee. It couldn't be a major arterial, but it could serve as a nice neighborhood through street.
But anyway, that's for another "conectivity" topic. One can only dream.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2777609377_dc50e4db06.jpg)
Y'all sound like whimps here... You didn't LIVE unless you crossed the ORIGINAL SHANDS BRIDGE! The new (current) one is a piece of cake. Oh and yes, the old wooden trestle barely one and a half lanes wide did have a high center span with WOOD side rails.
Cruise through that in your 52 studebaker and it was an adventure you'd never forget.
Another set of cool bridges were strung along US 17 at Doctors Lake, Black Creek, near Crescent Lake and another near Sanford. These massive big old bridges had a center swing span of steel. It sat on an island like pier with a long span on each end. They had a distinct music when you'd drive over them "clank - clank - ROAR - clank - clank" repeat... The center span of the one in Sanford is preserved in a roadside park where 17-92 crosses the St. Johns. (Funny, that's what the COJ SAID they would do with both the original Acosta AND part of the Fuller Warren --- not to worry, Sanford has us beat.)
A horrific "old-Shands like experience" was the long, James river bridge between Norfolk and Newport News, Virginia.
OCKLAWAHA
On another note: The State of Florida has lost some real landmark bridges to stupid planning.
(http://www.pl8.com/jax/acosta_bridge.jpg)
The old Acosta
(http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~putnamcofl/images/llcook_j170.jpg)
The Veterans Memorial in Palatka was stunning... Today it's a modernist hack job.
BRIDGE OF THE LIONS? If something much more isn't done, it's following the Veterans Memorial into a modern hack job...
We better gird up for the fight to save the GRAND AVENUE BRIDGE in Ortega, as I'm certain it will be one of the next to fall.
ALL IS NOT PROGRESS!
OCKLAWAHA
Maybe FDOT, Clay, and St. Johns should read this commentary on the future of far flung suburbs before spending $2 billion creating more of them. Think before you jump! :o [#2 on Time's World Changing Ideas]
And, read their #4 World Changing Idea on the future of interstates before building more:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4594.msg70175/topicseen.html#new
Quote
Time Magazine
Thursday, Mar. 12, 2009
Recycling the Suburbs
By Bryan Walsh
The American suburb as we know it is dying. The implosion began with the housing bust, which started in and has hit hardest the once vibrant neighborhoods outside the urban core. Shopping malls and big-box retail stores, the commercial anchors of the suburbs, are going dark â€" an estimated 148,000 stores closed last year, the most since 2001. But the shift is deeper than the economic downturn. Thanks to changing demographics, including a steady decline in the percentage of households with kids and a growing preference for urban amenities among Americans young and old, the suburban dream of the big house with the big lawn is vanishing. The Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech predicts that by 2025 there will be a surplus of 22 million large-lot homes (on one-sixth of an acre [675 sq m] or more) in the U.S.
Environmentalists will celebrate the demise of sprawling suburbs, which left the nation addicted to cars. But all the steel, concrete and asphalt that went into making the suburbs can't simply be tossed out in favor of something new, even if it's perfectly green. That would be worse. "As much as possible, we need to redirect development to existing communities and infrastructure," says Kaid Benfield, director of the smart-growth program at the Natural Resources Defense Council. "Otherwise, we're just eating up more land and natural resources."
The suburbs need to be remade, and just such a transformation is under way in regions that were known for some of the worst sprawl in the U.S. Communities as diverse as Lakewood, Colo., and Long Beach, Calif., have repurposed boarded-up malls as mixed-use developments with retail stores, offices and apartments. In auto-dependent suburbs that were built without a traditional center, shopping malls offer the chance to create downtowns without destroying existing infrastructure, by recycling what's known as underperforming asphalt. "All of these projects are developer-driven, because the market wants them," says Ellen Dunham-Jones, a co-author of the new book Retrofitting Suburbia.
Not every suburb will make it. The fringes of a suburb like Riverside in Southern California, where housing prices have fallen more than 20% since the bust began, could be too diffuse to thrive in a future where density is no longer taboo. It'll be the older inner suburbs like Tysons Corner, Va., that will have the mass transit, public space and economic gravity to thrive postrecession. Though creative cities will grow more attractive for empty-nest -retirees and young graduates alike, we won't all be moving to New York. Many Americans will still prefer the space of the suburbs â€" including the parking spaces. "People want to balance the privacy of the suburbs with more public and social areas," says Dunham-Jones. But the result will be a U.S. that is more sustainable â€" environmentally and economically.
Here is the link: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1884779_1884782_1884756,00.html
The Outer Beltway Project is already a project that will fail to meet expectations when finished. Here is another notch in that belt from today's Florida Times Union - the charging of tolls:QuoteIn 1988, Duval County voters approved a half-cent sales tax in order to wipe out all the toll roads in the county.
Tolls disappeared in 1989. But a generation later they may be making a comeback.
The Florida Department of Transportation is attempting to build the 46.5-mile beltway from Interstate 10 in Duval County to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County as a toll road. The First Coast Outer Beltway would go through Clay County and be used by about 30,000 cars a day.
Portions of the existing Chafee Road will become part of the beltway. But most of the rest needs to be built.
Transportation District Secretary Charles Baldwin said the road has to be tolled because the only way to construct the $2 billion project is with a public-private partnership.
The state plans to hire a company to build the road, and the company will then be in charge of maintaining the road and charging tolls.
It is not yet clear how many toll booths will be on the road or how much tolls will cost.
Fleming Island resident Mike Heemer said the road is a bad idea that will only benefit the landowners and businesses around the road.
Heemer concedes that constructing the road is supported by many in Clay County. But he said a lot of people aren’t aware that it will be a toll road.
“I call it the First Coast Outer Tollway,” he said.
Heemer is also dubious that people will want to travel on a toll road after it’s built and says the portion of the road from Green Cove Springs to St. Johns County won’t see a lot of vehicles.Pete Geiger, a resident of Penney Farms in Clay County, expressed concern that the Outer Beltway would end up discouraging the construction of other roads in the area. He worries that a contractor would insist on a no-compete clause that would lead to the state putting lights and stop signs on other roads so that cars would use the Outer Beltway.
The public needs to watch the project, Geiger said, to make sure it is done in a way beneficial to the community and not just to the private company building the road.
In a speech to the Clay County Chamber of Commerce last year, state Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos said public-private partnerships will be pursued for future projects because it will be the best way to do capital projects.
The interest in public-private partnerships comes during a time when the state of Florida is in a billion-dollar budget deficit, which means there may be less money flowing into the transportation department’s coffers. Denise Bunnewith , executive director of the First Coast Transportation Planning Organization, said tolls may be the only way to construct major projects in the future.
A poll taken by the planning organization last year found about 51 percent opposed to tolls.
Bunnewith said tolls are collected more efficiently now than 20 years ago. Electronic toll collections are now the norm in areas like Miami and Orlando, with cars being automatically charged when they drive through a toll collection terminal.
Short term there are no plans to toll any other roads in Northeast Florida. Baldwin said Florida 9B might end up as a public-private partnership, but that’s the only other road in Northeast Florida that might be tolled.
The first phase of construction of Florida 9B would go from U.S. 1 to Florida 9A and cost $170 million. The long-term plan is to connect Florida 9B to Interstate 95 before the road ends at County Road 2209 in St. Johns County. The cost of building the rest of the road is about $300 million.
Transportation department spokeswoman Gina Busscher said the state still hopes to get funding to build Florida 9B. But if that money doesn’t come, officials will look into a partnership.
See http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-03-23/story/tolls_making_a_comeback_in_this_region
I've heard that if the Outer Beltway doesn't have tolls, it won't get built. The state doesn't have the $2Billion needed.
Although a similar assessment could be made for a new highway connecting Jax with Tampa.
No new highways will be built in Florida without tolls....its the wave of the future and more popular as roads are at least theoretically paid for by user fees.
This has been the case now for over a decade (Central FL Greeneway, Suncoast Pkwy, Wekiva Pkwy, Polk Pkwy)....and for that matter, new lanes on existing highways such as I-95, I-595, and I-75 also will be tolled.
QuoteThe Outer Beltway Project is already a project that will fail to meet expectations when finished. Here is another notch in that belt from today's Florida Times Union - the charging of tolls:
That's not really new. I'm pretty sure the plan has been for it to be tolled since the beginning. That is how the PPP will work.
And to be honest, I would pay the tolls to keep from having to enter Blanding/295 every morning, and I'm sure I am not the only one.
I wonder if they will attempt to add tolls on the stretch in Duval County.
I dont mind tolls to pay off the loan required to build the road. The users of the road should shoulder most of the expense. My problem is the toll needs to go away the very minute the bill is paid. Open the gates and let the cars move freely. When the toll remains to simply generate income it becomes a tax on the users.
Eliminate the toll when the bill is paid!
Will the actual bill ever be paid? Like any other public service, toll roads typically don't make a profit, when you factor in annual maintenance costs.
Quote from: jandar on March 24, 2009, 10:12:13 AM
And to be honest, I would pay the tolls to keep from having to enter Blanding/295 every morning, and I'm sure I am not the only one.
You probably aren't the only one.
There were tolls on various roads and bridges throughout Jacksonville. The justification for the tolls is originally a good one. The state or feds will not fund it and we cannot or do not want to raise taxes for various reasons. If a road or bridge costs 100 mil to build then a toll is calculated to last for say 20 years or whatever it is expected to be. At some point that bill gets paid by the toll.
in this case, the private company builds and opertates the road....which may mean that tolls are fairly high in order to recoup the investment....but that's the catch-22....if tolls are too high, ridership (traffic volumes) will be lower...which means less revenue.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2009, 10:19:44 AM
I wonder if they will attempt to add tolls on the stretch in Duval County.
I'm betting that the part south of Cecil Commerce (new World Drive) will be....right now that's only planned as a 2-lane road....when they go to 4 lanes and make it an expressway, the tolls will appear.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 24, 2009, 10:51:29 AM
I dont mind tolls to pay off the loan required to build the road. The users of the road should shoulder most of the expense. My problem is the toll needs to go away the very minute the bill is paid. Open the gates and let the cars move freely. When the toll remains to simply generate income it becomes a tax on the users.
Eliminate the toll when the bill is paid!
Don't count on it. We had tolls long after JTA paid off bonds for its projects. And, we are still paying for those "paid off" bonds through the local option half-cent tax that was substituted for the tolls when they were voted out. I expect we will also pay the other half-cent local option sales taxes that was imposed for the Better Jax Plan long after its bonds are paid off. Government becomes addicted to these revenues like a drug addict to his next hit.
Also, to say one will willingly pay the tolls when no one has an any idea of how much they will be is pointless. Everything has a value, and everyone has a point in which they would NOT pay the tolls. As already mentioned, the higher the tolls, the lower the traffic count. The lower the traffic, the more the toll charge needs to be. As some point, there may be so little traffic, the project is not worthy of our time. If this free market approach was properly applied throughout history, our whole transportation infrastructure and the issue of urban sprawl would look entirely different today. Surely, the car for every person would not exist.
QuoteGovernment becomes addicted to these revenues like a drug addict to his next hit.
This is precisely... exactly... my point.
there is a reason for keeping tolls in place....
once you've paid off construction, you still have maintenance costs....whch are on averaghe about 7% of capital costs per year....so every 13-14 years, you're paying for the road all over again.
Then you lower the toll accordingly or add the cost of maintenance of that road or bridge to the maintenance budget for other similar roads or bridges.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2009, 12:56:43 PM
there is a reason for keeping tolls in place....
once you've paid off construction, you still have maintenance costs....whch are on averaghe about 7% of capital costs per year....so every 13-14 years, you're paying for the road all over again.
One more reason for Rail? Lower O&M costs per-mile or some such I'd imagine.
O&M costs for transit are an ever higher percentage...although rail is better than bus
Quote from: cline on March 24, 2009, 08:56:48 AM
QuoteThe Outer Beltway Project is already a project that will fail to meet expectations when finished. Here is another notch in that belt from today's Florida Times Union - the charging of tolls:
That's not really new. I'm pretty sure the plan has been for it to be tolled since the beginning. That is how the PPP will work.
PPPs aren't working that well anymore, if ever they did:
QuoteCalifornia: Toll Road Revenue Continues to Decline
Orange County, California officials seek to expand toll road that continues to experience double-digit drop in demand.
The Federal Highway Administration reported that motorists drove 108 billion fewer miles last year, a 3.6 percent drop from 2007 levels. While significant, this reduction -- which has an impact on gasoline tax revenues -- is far less severe than the reduction in travel experienced by toll roads across the country.
The continued drop in toll road use on well regarded facilities like Orange County, California's 91 Express Lanes brings into question the long-term sustainability of tolling as a form of revenue collection compared to the more modern gasoline excise tax.
"Today, after five years of ownership, the 91 Express Lanes continues to create national and international interest as a successful model of contemporary toll road operation," the Orange County Transportation Authority 2008 Annual Report boasted. "Fiscal Year 2008 witnessed the start of the current economic downturn, and the state of the economy no doubt exerted an influence on the number of vehicle trips."
Those trips fell off 17 percent in 2008 as 40,000 motorists each week decided paying nearly $10 to take a ten-mile trip was no longer worth it. Traffic has continued to decline 14 percent so far for 2009, bringing traffic to levels not seen since 2005. As a result, the road's revenue fell to $39,636,000 last year and is down 12 percent in the current fiscal year. In contrast, federal gas tax revenue grew slightly in February from the previous month. Although very little is spent to collect the federal gas tax at the distributor level, the cost of tolling personnel and equipment cuts into 23.7 percent of the tolls collected from drivers, forcing drivers to pay an extra $8 million each year to maintain the same level of service.
Despite the recent poor performance, Orange County Transportation Authority officials are preparing to expand the tolled portion of SR 91 another ten miles into Riverside County.
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/27/2716.asp
QuoteOne of the reasons our roads and bridges are falling apart is public hostility to tax increases -- gasoline taxes in particular. This attitude, in turn, is largely the product of the generalized distrust of government that conservatives have stoked for decades.So we've starved the beast for years, and now the utterly predictable consequences have come to pass.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123310436361422253-email.html
Federal fuel taxes of 18 cents per gallon, haven't changed since 1993! An with less driving being done and inflation making the 18 cents tax, buy much less than in the past, it's no wonder we have a crumbling infrastructure!!
QuoteA 2003 Federation Highway Administration study found that 94% of federal roadway funding came from fuel taxes, 86.3% of state roadway funding came from fuel taxes, and 11.1% of local roadway funding came from fuel taxes.
The study found that altogether in the U.S., 69.6% of roadway funding ($79.6 billion) came from fuel taxes and 30.1% ($33.4 billion) from other funding sources. The other funding sources are most typically general tax revenue.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 24, 2009, 01:28:29 PM
O&M costs for transit are an ever higher percentage...although rail is better than bus
On the other hand capital costs per mile are typically significantly cheaper for transit.
I believe that a lot could be done by indexing the federal gas tax ( to adjust fo inflation), or to simply have it be a percentage of our gas price.
Back in 1993, when gas was about $1 per gallon, the 18 cent gas tax represented about 18% of the cost per gallon. Since then, the cost per gallon has doubled, so I guess that same 18% would translate to about 36 cents.
It's the kind of proactive thinking that has been lacking in government.
It seems they are always reacting to situations, rather than anticipating changes and planning accordingly.
QuoteA 2003 Federation Highway Administration study found that 94% of federal roadway funding came from fuel taxes, 86.3% of state roadway funding came from fuel taxes, and 11.1% of local roadway funding came from fuel taxes.
The study found that altogether in the U.S., 69.6% of roadway funding ($79.6 billion) came from fuel taxes and 30.1% ($33.4 billion) from other funding sources. The other funding sources are most typically general tax revenue.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_the_United_States
[/quote]
In other words, we taxpayers are subsidizing road building and developers who manufacture the urban sprawl such road building supports while demanding Amtrak and other mass transit attempt to pay its own way and allowing other growth-related and quality of life concerns such as adequate schools to be underfunded. We won't even talk about the endless destruction of natural lands needed to protect our air, water, and to commune from time to time with nature.
Bingo!
Quote from: stjr on March 25, 2009, 12:21:29 AM
In other words, we taxpayers are subsidizing road building and developers who manufacture the urban sprawl such road building supports while demanding Amtrak and other mass transit attempt to pay its own way and allowing other growth-related and quality of life concerns such as adequate schools to be underfunded. We won't even talk about the endless destruction of natural lands needed to protect our air, water, and to commune from time to time with nature.
Developers want to be subsidized by taxpayers, true.
But my point is that we as taxpayers are doing an exceedingly poor job at funding public infrastructure in general. Why else do we have a "crumbling infrastructure"? The crumbling infrastructure is directly related to very low tax revenues, because the effective gas tax has dropped from 18% in 1993, to only 9% now that gas is $2. And when gas was $4 per gallon last summer, the 18 cents tax we paid represented less than 5%.
No revenues, no bridge repairs, and you see collapsed bridges as the result.
QuoteFlorida Has 276 Structurally Deficient Bridges; Six In Central Florida
POSTED: Thursday, August 2, 2007
UPDATED: 8:45 am EDT August 3, 2007
Florida has 276 bridges -- including six in Central Florida -- that are considered structurally deficient, which is the same designation the Minnesota bridge had before it suddenly collapsed.
Those 276 bridges in Florida are on the same federal government list of structurally deficient bridges as the one in Minneapolis that fell into the Mississippi River during rush hour on Wednesday.
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/13808569/detail.html (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/13808569/detail.html)
I wonder how many existing bridges we could repair with the money it will take to build 9B? I believe the money is there. The issue may be on what it's being spent on.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2009, 01:12:47 AM
I wonder how many existing bridges we could repair with the money it will take to build 9B? I believe the money is there. The issue may be on what it's being spent on.
How about $470 million worth! That would possibly pay also for raising the Dames Point Bridge to 200 feet or higher so we could get cruise and mega-cargo ships into the all the existing port areas!Per the Times Union article posted above:
QuoteShort term there are no plans to toll any other roads in Northeast Florida. Baldwin said Florida 9B might end up as a public-private partnership, but that’s the only other road in Northeast Florida that might be tolled.
The first phase of construction of Florida 9B would go from U.S. 1 to Florida 9A and cost $170 million. The long-term plan is to connect Florida 9B to Interstate 95 before the road ends at County Road 2209 in St. Johns County. The cost of building the rest of the road is about $300 million.
Transportation department spokeswoman Gina Busscher said the state still hopes to get funding to build Florida 9B. But if that money doesn’t come, officials will look into a partnership.
There you go. So instead of rebuilding crumbling infrastructure, we're searching for ways to fund more sprawl producers.
Btw, here is what's proposed where 9B will meet I-95 and Race Track Road. This should help reduce traffic in the area. ::)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/498525713_wKJsQ-L.jpg)
That's sad.
Build an interchange at Racetrack and use the 9B funding elsewhere
Let's hope this hits a brick wall before it gets done:QuoteOn the Road: Jacksonville toll road gets approval of state legislature
Submitted by Larry Hannan on Fri, 05/08/2009 - 14:54.
The state legislature has passed a bill that will allow a private company to build the First Coast Outer Beltway.
The $1.8 billion road is too expensive for the Florida Department of Transportation to build, so the state agency is looking for a private company to partner with. That private company will build the road, and then collect tolls when construction is finished.
Plans to construct the road came to a halt last year because it was unclear if the private company would have to pay property taxes on the land the Outer Beltway would be on.
The legislation that passed earlier this month exempts the company from property taxes. Gov. Charlie Crist still has to sign this bill for it to become law.
Pitfalls still remain for this project. FDOT needs to choose a private partner, and opposition to the project remains in Clay County.
I'll be coming back next week with a story that examines what will happen now.
From: http://www.jacksonville.com/interact/blog/larry_hannan/2009-05-08/on_the_road_jacksonville_toll_road_gets_approval_of_state_legi
Quote from: Jason on March 25, 2009, 08:39:34 AM
Build an interchange at Racetrack
I support this post.
It'd sure help releave San Jose a good bit.
Shouldn't FDOT be afraid that a privately run highway will be operated and maintained so much better than the public ones that people will wonder why?
Wow, 7 OUT PARCELS in Bartram Commons!
Sonic?
Krystal?
What-A-Burger?
KFC?
Bojangles?
Arbys?
Pizza Hut?
AWESOME....
"Hey, wait a second, I just bought a place in Orangedale, World Golf Sprawledge"
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 09, 2009, 06:33:19 PM
Shouldn't FDOT be afraid that a privately run highway will be operated and maintained so much better than the public ones that people will wonder why?
Ask Metro Orlando residents.
This may shock some, but I'm not totally against the Outer Beltway. The number one reason to support at least the Eastern most leg, 295/9A - I-95 South, is for the benefit of our port access. Taken to the extreme check out what "Might" happen within 20-30 years, I-22, left off the Interstate Highway System but planned by MO., AR, TN, MS, AL, GA, FL since the mid 1960's is DONE from roughly Springfield MO - Birmingham. If it is ever completed it would enter the city on the far Northwest corner and most likely align with MLK/20TH st Expy.. If the Outer Beltway was completed around the NW side of the city, it would pull the trucks off as a bypass, and allow Port traffic to move on to 295 or MLK/20TH and the Port.
Consider most large mature ports have a choice of railroads and offer some close freeway access, while we can offer the latter we do not have a consistant Harbour-Side Expressway. Something that could take a truck from Blount Island to Talleyrand in minutes. The extension of 20TH/MLK as a full blown expressway from TALLEYRAND - to 295 would make sea to rail access much better. Considering that most of our Port does NOT have rail choice.
I don't like what the highway will do in the SW corner, as it will NOT relieve Clay - Jax traffic, it will spread more of the same until the next 50 miles looks like Arlington.
Perhaps the thing I'm MOST AGINST, is having this thing cut in on LEE FIELD in Green Cove's old Naval Air Station. Talk about a place where the Navy could return... Master Jet Base LEE FIELD has a ring to it. But it won't with a stupid highway cutting the approach to the runways so they would have to stay WWII length. I believe they are 8,000 ft. and 6,000 ft. (Any fly boys know without me digging it up?) Sure the chance is slim to none, but even a flicker of hope isn't worth trashing with a toll road. Besides as the urban area grows, the SW sector will need a quality business airport. Green Cove and Switzerland are the only ones around, and Switzerland looks like toast.
Now, to stop hijacking this thread and bring it back to the original thought, JAX - GAINESVILLE. Some thoughts:
Normandy or I-10 to 301 to Waldo to Gainesville is about as good as we could get even with a expressway.
The ONLY other route would be right down the middle of Blanding. You see there is a reason White House Field, Yellow Water, Cecil, Branon Field, Clay Bomb Range, State Forest, North Camp Blanding, and Camp Blanding are laid out end to end. It was 100% MILITARY LAND. The Navy swapped Camp Blanding for NAS with the Army, and the State got the forest in the deal. So unless you plan to blow away about 1/2 of everything down one side of Blanding, it's a no go. "THEY GOT TANKS AND LIVE FIRE OUT IN THEM WOODS!" They even have their own US ARMY RAILROAD some 15 miles or so.
You mention it could even have rail built on it someday.... The rail is already there and it's excellent track. 79 MPH. It runs, JAX - BALDWIN - STARKE - ALACHUA - GAINESVILLE, the Starke - Gainesville segment is good for about 45 MPH, but the speed could rise with traffic control signals (federal cap without em').
Bottom line for me?
Build the SE and NW segments of this road and scrap the rest for better CLAY - JAX access.
Rebuild Jacksonville Terminal as our Transportation Center, with no less then 8 tracks so we can be a TRUE TERMINAL and dispatch trains from our own facilities.
Get that AMTRAK - REGIONAL RDC car up and running 4x each way daily between Jax and Gainesville.
Somebody in Green Cove Chamber of Commerce, go grab John Mica by the pant leg and BEG to get that damn base back.
Johnny Boy if we simply MUST pour concrete, why not try something novel like FINISH the Commodore Point Freeway? How about just put some street lights up? Why can't I get on I-95 from your Stupid Kings Avenue parking garage heading South (you know toward St. Johns County where you live!). If you want to take a cold shot at redevelopment, ever heard of the Arlington Expressway? Matthews Bridge? Say, I've got an idea, why not connect the "Emerson Connector" so it connects something? Say, I-95 South, and Arlington Expressway on a REAL Emerson Connector? What would that do for University Johnny Boy? Must we live forever with an unfinished MLK/20TH and there is STILL no interchange in that idiotic CORNER in the middle of a freeway. Give Roosevelt the Arlington Expressway treatment... Wouldn't that help some? Oh yeah, my neighbors in Ortega would scream, can't have the high rollers unhappy... Jesus Johnny... Jesus is your answer! God knows you need all the help you can get.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: reednavy on May 09, 2009, 09:24:16 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 09, 2009, 06:33:19 PM
Shouldn't FDOT be afraid that a privately run highway will be operated and maintained so much better than the public ones that people will wonder why?
Ask Metro Orlando residents.
Yeah, I hate that Mickey Mouse Freeway System, CHA CHING! CHA CHING! Something like $7 bucks to go from I-4 to I-4... When the big sign says I-4 downtown is at a standstill. CHA-CHING! !@#**$!*(@)!&*@)(*!$&(*@%!^@)*@$_!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: reednavy on May 09, 2009, 09:24:16 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 09, 2009, 06:33:19 PM
Shouldn't FDOT be afraid that a privately run highway will be operated and maintained so much better than the public ones that people will wonder why?
Ask Metro Orlando residents.
sorry, but none of their toll roads are private
Quote from: tufsu1 link=topic=4269.msg77252#msg77252 date=1241929416
sorry, but none of their toll roads are private
/quote]
I know that, I was just sayin though. They're much better maintained than any section of I-4 is or will be.
Maybe this will happen w/ the Outer Beltway too?
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/may/23/co-keep-alligator-alley-in-taxpayers-control/
I say keep the outer beltway and "add" a new super highway link to Gainesville; we really need the beltway, but come on, not all that many people commute on the highway between Jacksonville and Gainesville, or do they?
Heights Unknown
heights...why do you think we need another beltwaqy...is I-295 not good enough?
There are two public/private toll roads in SC. One is the Cross Island Connector in the affluent beach community of Hilton Head Island. The second is in Greenville, where I live, and is called the Southern Connector.
The Cross Island connector is significantly older and will save considerable time for the user. I haven't seen any recent news on it, but the last I saw, it was a very modest success/break-even situation. Keep in mind that the average HHI resident is probably at LEAST a millionaire.
The Southern Connector is of dubious use, and if truth be told, was built to add interstate frontage in Greenville County, which has had most of it's existing frontage used up. The road is configured in such a way that it saves litttle, if any time (but does provide more frontage than was minimally required).
When this road was first proposed, I nicknamed it the 'Waste of money connector". Financially, it has been a huge flop with under-usage from day 1. Tolls were later raised to add revenue, which had the obvious affect of reducing usage further. The road has eroded it's reserves (included in the original bond issue) substantially. Default on the bond is considered a matter of time at this point. The SC legislature has refused to bailout the private investors, which is one of the few 'bright' things that body has ever done, IMO.
http://www.nhalphaalumni.org/ (http://www.nhalphaalumni.org/)
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-120442462.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-120442462.html)
This article looks at these public/private toll roads nation-wide, and it should give HUGE PAUSE to anyone thinking of doing another one. Only 5 of 22 such roads were close to or exceeded their traffic projections.
http://www.denverpost.com/tollroads/ci_3876477 (http://www.denverpost.com/tollroads/ci_3876477)
Given the recent financial turmoil, I doubt any private interests will want to be involved with this project. This would have to be a fully public toll road to ever get built. I also would seriously question the ability of the toll to pay it's expected share of the costs, meaning a greater percentage of public infrastructure dollars required. Obviously that would mean less money for other projects.
Quote from: stjr on March 25, 2009, 01:26:17 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2009, 01:12:47 AM
I wonder how many existing bridges we could repair with the money it will take to build 9B? I believe the money is there. The issue may be on what it's being spent on.
How about $470 million worth! That would possibly pay also for raising the Dames Point Bridge to 200 feet or higher so we could get cruise and mega-cargo ships into the all the existing port areas!
and we're about to spend over $500 million on an interchange in Miami....that will probably be congested agin in less than 10 years!
http://www.miamiherald.com/486/story/1064339-p2.html
From what I've heard (a) there are several private (and foreign) investors interested in the Outer Beltway, and (b) if it isn't built privately, it won't be built at all - including completing the 4-lanes for Branan Field-Chaffee section beyond what is currently under construction. I am sure these investors will run the numbers, again, before submitting bids (or whatever it is) this year or next (whenever it is).
edited to fix unintended bolding
the portion of the roadway under construction is funded...but portions will be only a 4-lane arterial...and a small portion in Jax. will be built as a 2-lane expwy first (just like the Polk Pkwy) with the additional 2 lanes being built in about 5 years (or as part of the public-private-partnership).
While the idea of an interstate type road from Jax to Gville is good, why couldnt the road connect to the Sun Coast Pkwy, travel through Ocala, and then make a Beeline for Jax? To me this would be more sensible as Ocala is closer to the Turnpike as well. So residents could come from the entire west coast, and areas of interior Florida, and hop on the Sun Coast Pkwy and head through Ocala (which needs something like this) and head towards Jax with little or no stopping except maybe service plazas along the route with a stop in Palatka and maybe a few other cities. Just an idea.
Be ware strangers bearing gifts! This "bribe" of no local bridge only tolls to get public approval of the Outer Beltway stinks. More wasted $$$ promoting urban sprawl. Clay and St. Johns residents will rue the day they let this thing get built. It will destroy their quality of life.
If people want to live near their jobs, let them move closer to their employers, not spread the employers all over the place. It's that easy. People want to live in the country but have their jobs next door. That's a non sequitur.
Another Governor Charlie Crist cave in to developers and urban sprawl. If we need a new bridge to replace Shands, just build that. QuoteLocal drivers won’t pay toll over Shands Bridge after all
Many residents don't think the bridge needs to be replaced and don't see a need for the Beltway
By Larry Hannan Story updated at 7:19 AM on Thursday, Jun. 4, 2009
Motorists living near the Shands Bridge or who travel it locally will not pay a toll to get across the St. Johns River after all when the First Coast Outer Beltway is built.
The two-lane, 40-foot-high Shands Bridge will be torn down and replaced by a new six-lane, 65-foot-high bridge that will be part of the 46.5-mile toll road that will connect Interstate 10 in Duval County with Interstate 95 in St. Johns County. The new bridge will be just south of the existing Shands Bridge.
Residents along the planned roadway have complained about losing the Shands Bridge and having to pay a toll to cross its replacement.
“The Shands Bridge is a perfectly good bridge,†said Green Cove Springs resident Eugene Kirker. “Green Cove Springs residents will not benefit from this.â€
Larry Parks, director of planning for the Florida Department of Transportation, said those complaints have been heard, and the department told The Times-Union on Wednesday that local residents will not be assessed a toll provided they get on the beltway right before the bridge and get off at the first exit after.
The exit east of the bridge will be on Country Road 16A. The westbound exit will be on U.S. 17.
Cars will still need to have a transponder that will electronically note where they got on and off the beltway. In lieu of pay toll booths, the transponder is designed to electronically debit motorists.
Green Cove Springs resident Curt Kinder said it will be easier to accept the Outer Beltway with this change.
“Tolls could have ended up costing up to $1,000 a year, so this is good news,†Kinder said, although he still doubts the Outer Beltway will bring 35,000 new jobs to the area, as its supporters claim.
Clay County resident Mackey Everett didn’t see the point of building the beltway and wasn’t mollified when told he would not be charged to go over the bridge.
“No one around here wants the beltway,†Everett said. “And I don’t understand why we can’t keep the old Shands Bridge.â€
Parks said the existing span can’t handle the projected 30,000 or so cars that will use the beltway every day. About 12,500 cars a day go over the current bridge.
FDOT spokeswoman Gina Busscher said portions of the old bridge could remain standing to operate as a fishing pier.
It is not yet clear when construction on the beltway will begin. The process of hiring a private partner that will build and maintain the roadway has begun, but that will take at least a year.
The old bridge will remain open until the new one is built.
From: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-06-03/story/local_drivers_won’t_pay_toll_over_shands_bridge_after_all
Even with current traffic counts, that bridge is dangerous. The residents that say it is fine as is are idiots. No way to pull over and if an accident occurs, well, you're screwed.
I'm also not the biggest fan of one part being metal grating, wth happened?
Quote from: reednavy on June 04, 2009, 04:51:07 PM
Even with current traffic counts, that bridge is dangerous. The residents that say it is fine as is are idiots. No way to pull over and if an accident occurs, well, you're screwed.
I'm also not the biggest fan of one part being metal grating, wth happened?
I cringe every time I use that bridge with all the dump trucks on it now. It can be a death trap in most conditions, a nightmare in bad weather.
this is very interesting...the biggest potential profit for a private toll road builder is on the bridge...an now they are taking that opportunity away....unless of course FDOT partially funds the bridge construction since they would have had to replace the existing bridge soon anyway.
The grating is removable, so larger ships can get upriver from there. Don't know when the last time it was used though.
The through ("Bypass") traffic will still pay tolls on the bridge (and the whole route). The only free trips will be if you get on or off at both US 17 and SR 16 (just past SR 13). If you go beyond those points, you will pay a toll as if you had crossed the bridge.
sure...but those will be two heavily used interchanges...I'm betting that half of the fcuture bridge traffic could fall into this category.
Has anyone thought about how traffic will actually flow if this Beltway is built? Are there any traffic studies yet done to justify it or is it just a pie-in-the-sky pork barrel fantasy project?
Certainly, no one headed from I-10 eastbound to Jax, its port, or to I-95 north will use it. If you are coming on an interstate trip eastbound from beyond Lake City on I-10 and want to go to the most populous parts of south Florida, you would very likely chose I-75 and the Florida Turnpike. If you are coming north from south Florida and wish to travel I10 westbound, you would take the same route in reverse.
So where is the big generator of traffic between I-10 and I-95 south traffic? Daytona Beach, maybe Melbourne. For that, we need this grand project?
And, with the expansion of the port, and subsequent growth of the immediate Jax area as a distribution hub, we may have even less traffic passing down I-10 intoINTO Florida. Rather, it will radiate OUT from Jax proper.
So, please describe the typical traveler over the Outer Beltway other than local traffic generated by newly created urban sprawl? And, how many of these new local residents will either (a) move to an area where they have to pay a toll every time they want to travel on this thing or (b) make every effort to avoid the tolls by jamming the local non-toll roads forcing the counties and State to pay up to expand those roads?
I remember the great lengths Jax residents and truckers went through to avoid paying the 25 cent Fuller Warren (I-95) and Trout River (I-95) bridge tolls when we had them. People would exit I-95 and take Main Street or the Acosta Bridge through Downtown. Imagine what people will do to avoid even more expensive (in today's dollars) tolls on the Outer Beltway? Especially, when for many years to come they won't be motivated by NY City-style traffic issues to pay the tolls.
Need to replace the Shands Bridge? No problem. Just do that and be done with it. By the way, if they replace it, I think they should go to 8 lanes. 6 lanes is a patch job that will be requiring an expansion in less than 20 years. See the Buckman Bridge traffic issues before it was finally expanded. In fact, I think FDOT made a boneheaded move in not making 9A 8 lanes from day one all the way around. There will be far more traffic on this more traveled and densely populated segment, shortly, than on the western I-295 side which is already 8 lanes. The final killer will come with the port expansion traffic headed south on it to I-95. And these people know what they are doing when it comes to planning these things?
With it being totally paid for by the private contractor, who only gets paid back by toll revenues, I would bet any potential bidders will look at traffic projections - including the freebie provision - very closely, before submitting bids. If the numbers don't add up, they won't bid. If there aren't bids, there won't be a beltway. No way the state can afford this nearly 2 Billion Dollar project.
It will take some time to get the amount of development that cirrently uses the Buckman to use this new Shands Bridge. By the time this is done, gas prices will probably be outrageous again, and most people will just suck up the 50 cents or so to travel the only crossing for over 30 miles between Palatka and the Buckman.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 04, 2009, 10:08:19 PM
The grating is removable, so larger ships can get upriver from there. Don't know when the last time it was used though.
The gratign is a little ways east of the deepest part of the river, not near the main rise of the bridge, and is not wide enough.
Good points ... I am perplexed, without being as familiar with the bridge as you, it made sense when someone told it to me. Thanks for the info.
Quote from: reednavy on June 04, 2009, 11:25:49 PM
It will take some time to get the amount of development that cirrently uses the Buckman to use this new Shands Bridge. By the time this is done, gas prices will probably be outrageous again, and most people will just suck up the 50 cents or so to travel the only crossing for over 30 miles between Palatka and the Buckman.
I
f the local traffic on the bridge is exempt from tolls, the price of gas won't make a difference. What I was saying is people will jam the local roads to get to the immediate entry points on either side of the bridge to obtain the toll free passage the State is promising. Travelers will be working to avoid the tolls on the NON-bridge portions of the Outer Beltway by taking these local roads. And, I can bet you that it won't be a 50 cent toll for the non-bridge portions of the Outer Beltway. Probably, it will be several DOLLARS!
As to the entire Outer Beltway, if we have outrageous gas prices people will (a) make far less trips and (b) attempt to move closer in to the city to avoid driving 30 or 40 miles each way to work from the OUTER LIMITS, oops, OUTER BELTWAY. The corresponding reduction in revenues will financially doom the operator who didn't count on such high gas prices interfering with his traffic projections. It would be poetic justice. 8)
Quote from: vicupstate on May 25, 2009, 10:36:15 AM
There are two public/private toll roads in SC. One is the Cross Island Connector in the affluent beach community of Hilton Head Island. The second is in Greenville, where I live, and is called the Southern Connector.
The Cross Island connector is significantly older and will save considerable time for the user. I haven't seen any recent news on it, but the last I saw, it was a very modest success/break-even situation. Keep in mind that the average HHI resident is probably at LEAST a millionaire.
The Southern Connector is of dubious use, and if truth be told, was built to add interstate frontage in Greenville County, which has had most of it's existing frontage used up. The road is configured in such a way that it saves litttle, if any time (but does provide more frontage than was minimally required).
When this road was first proposed, I nicknamed it the 'Waste of money connector". Financially, it has been a huge flop with under-usage from day 1. Tolls were later raised to add revenue, which had the obvious affect of reducing usage further. The road has eroded it's reserves (included in the original bond issue) substantially. Default on the bond is considered a matter of time at this point. The SC legislature has refused to bailout the private investors, which is one of the few 'bright' things that body has ever done, IMO.
http://www.nhalphaalumni.org/ (http://www.nhalphaalumni.org/)
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-120442462.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-120442462.html)
This article looks at these public/private toll roads nation-wide, and it should give HUGE PAUSE to anyone thinking of doing another one. Only 5 of 22 such roads were close to or exceeded their traffic projections.
http://www.denverpost.com/tollroads/ci_3876477 (http://www.denverpost.com/tollroads/ci_3876477)
Given the recent financial turmoil, I doubt any private interests will want to be involved with this project. This would have to be a fully public toll road to ever get built. I also would seriously question the ability of the toll to pay it's expected share of the costs, meaning a greater percentage of public infrastructure dollars required. Obviously that would mean less money for other projects.
An update on the failure of the Southern Connector private toll highway, as well as NC's efforts for public/private toll roads.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/597/story/758183.html (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/597/story/758183.html)
Great link Vic. In many ways, the Outer Beltway looks like a carbon copy of the Southern Connector. Any idea on how much it cost to construct the 16-mile Southern Connector in Greenville?
Quote from: stjr on June 04, 2009, 10:46:03 PM
Need to replace the Shands Bridge? No problem. Just do that and be done with it. By the way, if they replace it, I think they should go to 8 lanes. 6 lanes is a patch job that will be requiring an expansion in less than 20 years. See the Buckman Bridge traffic issues before it was finally expanded. In fact, I think FDOT made a boneheaded move in not making 9A 8 lanes from day one all the way around. There will be far more traffic on this more traveled and densely populated segment, shortly, than on the western I-295 side which is already 8 lanes. The final killer will come with the port expansion traffic headed south on it to I-95. And these people know what they are doing when it comes to planning these things?
actually, the projections out to 2035 show only a need for 4 lanes...and that is all that was proposed as part of the PD&E study....so if they want to do 6 (or more), they'll need to update the study they just finioshed 2 years ago.
As for the contemplated toll...prior to yesterday, the bridge surcharge was supposed to be $1 for cars (more for trucks)....in addition to the tolls for the outer beltway itself
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 05, 2009, 09:02:02 AM
actually, the projections out to 2035 show only a need for 4 lanes...and that is all that was proposed as part of the PD&E study....so if they want to do 6 (or more), they'll need to update the study they just finioshed 2 years ago.
If, from what is being bandied about, the bridge itself will be the most traveled segment of the Outer Beltway and the studies can only determine enough traffic during its first 20 years or so to justify a 4 lane bridge, it certainly doesn't bode well for the traffic counts on the rest of the beltway. Governor Crist, remind me again, why are we building this thing? Clearly, not for traffic demand. Can you spell "U S S E N A T E"!?
well to be fair, it won't likely get built if a private company doesn't do it...and they will likely scrutinize the potential volumes and toll revenues very closely
1.5 mile roadway in Tampa for $600+ million....seems like a good deal to me!
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jun/15/dot-i-4-connector-will-generate-14000-jobs/news-metro/
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 16, 2009, 08:10:25 AM
1.5 mile roadway in Tampa for $600+ million....seems like a good deal to me!
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jun/15/dot-i-4-connector-will-generate-14000-jobs/news-metro/
Whoa, not no, but hell no, send this back to the drawing board.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/687599705_XNjFq-L.jpg)
Thanks, Lake, for making this map available (from
http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/forum_docs/Pink_11x17_rev.pdf).
I think this map shows several things.
First, how contorted the Outer Beltway really is. It isn't a direct route for those desiring to make the entire loop from I-10 to I-95. In fact, it takes one miles out of the way, going way south and then back north. And, at its proposed 4 lanes it won't have very much capacity at any choke points to make it quicker than I-295 at 6 lanes. Add, that it will be toll road, and you can bet out-of-towners won't have much interest in it. Thus, the promise of relieving I-295 appears to be just that - a promise. (Hmmm...that's the term the Times Union just attributed in its recent editorial on 9B. I see a pattern here...)
Secondly, you can see how many currently undeveloped wetlands, forest, farms, and green belted areas the Beltway will be slicing through. Not to mention existing residential areas. It will wipe out much of the rural areas remaining in Clay and a goodly slice of St. Johns. By the way, don't forget the noise pollution. Stand within about one mile of I-295 to hear the traffic roar. I'm sure that will be attractive to area Clay and St. Johns residents over its 46 miles (or 92 square miles at 46 miles x 1 mile x 2 sides).
Third, the main beneficiaries, once again, appear to be proposed/planned/started DRI mega-developments hoping to bring in tens of thousands of new residents and all their added traffic and congestion, not to mention overcrowding of schools and overtaxing of police and fire. And, how will all this development further impact our fresh water supplies, the aquifer, and the river? It would be interesting to overlay the mega-developments on the map and see how the Beltway will service them.
Most importantly, especially for residents of St. Johns and Clay, is the wandering spin off roads, shown as yellow dashes, planned to feed into the Outer Beltway. These roads will carve up their respective counties with more sprawl and traffic. For the most part, I see lot's of roof tops and strip shopping, not the major job centers these counties are looking for to bring more tax revenue (which will be needed to subsidize all that urban sprawl!).
Looking at the interchanges, St. Johns will only have two local access ones (the third is I-95, a non-local route). The one closest to the river crossing, replacing the Shands Bridge, will now require entry to the bridge from a further eastward access point than that currently existing at SR 13. In other words, those driving SR13 will now have to travel east, enter the Beltway, and backtrack west to the bridge. The second interchange at proposed SR2209 appears to represent the only possible access point for industrial/commercial development but, if that is indeed the case, it will not be well connected with local/back roads to other parts of St. Johns county forcing workers to jam SR2209 or the Beltway.
On the Clay side, again, the Shands bridge access will be more remote for existing "downtown" GCS residents and those continuing from SR 16. In fact, it will route most bridge users around GCS rather than through it. Industrial/commercial development seems most likely at this exit or at the next mystery (unmarked by any cross road) exit in the middle of someone's currently rural land (wonder who owns this future "goldmine" being served with a private interstate exit?). The other exits in Clay appear to be closer to existing residential but perhaps could support some commercial development. (Does anyone know if Clay has a master land use plan for these interchanges?).
Also, in Clay, it shows a future College Drive extension. But, it is not shown connected across Black Creek to the existing section. What are the plans for a connection through this environmentally sensitive area? Why aren't they shown on the map? Or, is no actual connection planned despite the name given the new road?
Another important issue will be whether the interchanges built will be full interchanges or diamonds (half interchanges with the traffic jamming traffic lights)? If the latter, expect to see lots of "little" I-95/JTB, I-95/SR210, I-95/St. Augustine Road, Blanding/I-295, etc. type traffic patterns blossoming in Clay and St. Johns counties.
Finally, do Clay and St. Johns have any plans to increase their parks and preserved lands in these areas before they are completely built over? All this development needs to be served by a number of mega-green (over 100 acre) spaces but I never hear conversations on this topic to complement the accommodation of urban sprawl. If the Outer Beltway comes to fruition, these potential lands may become unaffordable. As such, they should be acquired prior to any further advancement of the Outer Beltway (heaven forbid!).
In the end, I don't see anything improving for current, or possible future, residents. Subject to a useful mass transit implementation, I fully expect 50 years from now our successors will be hearing the same broken record, but at a much louder volume, we hear today about inadequate roads, too much traffic, and overwhelmed infrastructure and resources.
stjr...........I agree with your post..........once more no vision and no planning! This seems to be a trait that is prevelant and I don't understand it unless the developers have more control on roads than is known?
As stated here many times, I am no fan of the Outer Beltway....but CS, please explain to me how there is no vision or planning here.
Whether we like the outcome or not, there has been over a decade of planning and studies (and more than 20 years for the part north of Blanding)....and I'm sure that the Clay folks will tell you they have a vision for the area.
Now a few notes to stjr's post:
Even though the official website still notes that this will be a 4-lane road, I understand that a good portion of the road may actually be designed (or even constructed) as 6 lanes....this includes the Shand bridge, which is likely to be the only potential "choke point".
As for noise, new or widened roads require significant noise analysis...I am sure that thi will mean noise walls along portions of the road, unless those in the affected areas don't want them.
Yes, the Clay folks have a vision with the Outer Beltway. Its just not a sustainable one, which they may not care that much about.
So the locally preferred "Pink" alternative provides no connection to 9B? That makes 9B even more useless!
Quote from: Jason on October 21, 2009, 10:34:54 AM
So the locally preferred "Pink" alternative provides no connection to 9B? That makes 9B even more useless!
Since there would be an interchange at the proposed CR2209, you would be able to connect to the 9B extension north of CR210. This assumes, of course, that the 9B extension is actually built.
Shands Bridge, I agree it needs to be rebuilt too narrow, no emergency lanes, but most of all, not nearly high enough. The height issue has killed transportation on the upper (South) St. Johns River, it has also killed off shipyard contracts that would have amounted to hundreds of jobs in Putnam County.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2777609377_dc50e4db06.jpg)
Part of the original span about 1/8 mile north of the current bridge on the west side.
For those who think we should keep it as it is, a sort of monument to 1950 technology, If you REALLY want nostalgia, you should have crossed the original. I don't remember what we called it, but it was a real white knuckle ride.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: cline on October 21, 2009, 10:48:45 AM
Quote from: Jason on October 21, 2009, 10:34:54 AM
So the locally preferred "Pink" alternative provides no connection to 9B? That makes 9B even more useless!
Since there would be an interchange at the proposed CR2209, you would be able to connect to the 9B extension north of CR210. This assumes, of course, that the 9B extension is actually built.
or just continue east to I-95 and then head north to connect with SR 9B....apparently, environmental approvals of the Outer Beltway came with the requirement for 8-laning of I-95 in northern St. Johns County.
Quoteor just continue east to I-95 and then head north to connect with SR 9B....apparently, environmental approvals of the Outer Beltway came with the requirement for 8-laning of I-95 in northern St. Johns County.
Yes, that would be another option and would probably be a quicker route as well.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2009, 08:16:23 AM
As stated here many times, I am no fan of the Outer Beltway....but CS, please explain to me how there is no vision or planning here.
Whether we like the outcome or not, there has been over a decade of planning and studies (and more than 20 years for the part north of Blanding)....and I'm sure that the Clay folks will tell you they have a vision for the area.
Tufsu, when they were "planning" this, what was their goal? Urban sprawl? Destruction of rural, agricultural, forested, and wetland areas? Further straining fresh water supplies? It sure isn't going to accomplish "traffic relief". What is this Clay County "vision" you speak of? And, does St. Johns have a "vision" of their own?
Were planners given the "option" to do nothing or to offer alternate ideas on how to spend an estimated $2 billion on the needs of North Florida, other than for an 8-interchange highway that loop-the-loops its way around? To invest the money in a full blown regional mass transit system, dredge our port ($600 million, a mere slice of this), improve existing roads, put land aside for preservation so these roads wouldn't be needed to fuel urban sprawl, hire more public safety employees, improve our education system, etc.? I didn't think so.
What kind of planning process do we have when the planners are told they only have one option to deliver?QuoteEven though the official website still notes that this will be a 4-lane road, I understand that a good portion of the road may actually be designed (or even constructed) as 6 lanes....this includes the Shand bridge, which is likely to be the only potential "choke point".
Tufsu, this comment, along with the missing explanation for the future of College Drive, the mystery exit, and the unanswered plan for connecting the Outer Beltway with a possible 9B extension indicates to me that the Outer Beltway is not fully planned, and, as CS alleges, is being designed "as we go". Feeding into this thinking would be any lack of clarity into whether interchanges are traffic light diamonds or full interchanges and any lack of master land use plans by Clay and St. Johns. QuoteAs for noise, new or widened roads require significant noise analysis...I am sure that thi will mean noise walls along portions of the road, unless those in the affected areas don't want them.
Tufsu, I thought that noise barriers (which, by the way, are ugly as sin) were only installed by FDOT in areas where development along the road preceded the PLANNING of the road way. Was this the policy? Has it changed? Even with noise barriers, I "hear" ( ;) ) they are not fully effective in reducing noise, particularly further from the road.
Quotethe unanswered plan for connecting the Outer Beltway with a possible 9B extension
Actually, the Outer Beltway will be connected to the 9B extension via two routes, I-95 and CR2209. It is not an unanswered plan, there are plans for it.
Quote from: stjr on October 21, 2009, 12:17:59 PM
Tufsu, when they were "planning" this, what was their goal? Urban sprawl? Destruction of rural, agricultural, forested, and wetland areas? Further straining fresh water supplies? It sure isn't going to accomplish "traffic relief". What is this Clay County "vision" you speak of? And, does St. Johns have a "vision" of their own?
Tufsu, I thought that noise barriers (which, by the way, are ugly as sin) were only installed by FDOT in areas where development along the road preceded the PLANNING of the road way. Was this the policy? Has it changed? Even with noise barriers, I "hear" ( ;) ) they are not fully effective in reducing noise, particularly further from the road.
I am sure the main goal for Clay County is economic development....they probably feel that having an expressway in their community will help attract potential employers.
As for noise walls, you are incorrect....generally noise walls exist where the volume of the roadway exceeds the Federal standards....what usually happens is that they get installed when a road is widened, thereby bringing more traffic closer to the adjacent development.
Finally, your issue with the $2 Billion is a good point....except that the road won't be funded directly with public taxpayer dollars....so the question is, would a private equity company be interested in building a mass transit system or dredging the river and recouping their investment through user fees?
Or perhaps you'd prefer we put some of that money towards extensions of the Skyway ;)
Quote from: cline on October 21, 2009, 12:52:49 PM
Actually, the Outer Beltway will be connected to the 9B extension via two routes, I-95 and CR2209. It is not an unanswered plan, there are plans for it.
Thanks, Cline, but my impression was that the connection would be an interstate level road. Is 2209 a local or interstate road? Currently, it appears as a local road. Also, in the drawing on FDOT's official site, shown in a previous post, 2209 connects far enough down on Race Track road from 9B as to not be a direct connection in my book. If this is wrong, FDOT needs to show us their real intentions.
Any traffic generated by the Outer Beltway via I-95 to 9B would seem to defeat a stated purpose of 9B and the Outer Beltway relieving I95 of traffic. Tens of thousands of new residents in middle Clay and St. Johns County will now want to transit north up an already overburdened I95 into South Jax. This just fuels my thoughts that building these roads actually makes the traffic worse, not better, even on existing roads, and that we are being sold an illusion of traffic improvements. An urban sprawl treadmill.
2209 is to be a 4-6 lane raised median roadway.
Quotemy impression was that the connection would be an interstate level road. Is 2209 a local or interstate road? Currently, it appears as a local road. Also, in the drawing on FDOT's official site, shown in a previous post, 2209 connects far enough down on Race Track road from 9B as to not be a direct connection in my book. If this is wrong, FDOT needs to show us their real intentions.
It appears as though the map on the previous page only shows the 9B extension to Race Track-this is not the complete extension. From what I have seen, the 9B extension will extend south of Race Track Road and terminate at CR2209. You are correct though, CR2209 is not functionally classified as an interstate. However, if one wanted to go from the Outer Beltway to 9B via only interstate roadways, you would take the Outer Beltway to its end at I-95 head north on I-95 and then get on 9B at the interchange of I-95 and 9B.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2009, 01:00:31 PM
As for noise walls, you are incorrect....generally noise walls exist where the volume of the roadway exceeds the Federal standards....what usually happens is that they get installed when a road is widened, thereby bringing more traffic closer to the adjacent development.
Tufsu, I recall Mandarin residents asking for noise barriers along I-295 and being told "no". What does it take to exceed Federal standards - a certain traffic level? too many decibels? The noise from I-295 can be easily heard a mile away in Mandarin and further when the air is cold and dense. The Buckman Bridge can be heard even further down the open St. Johns River.QuoteFinally, your issue with the $2 Billion is a good point....except that the road won't be funded directly with public taxpayer dollars....so the question is, would a private equity company be interested in building a mass transit system or dredging the river and recouping their investment through user fees?
Actually, I agree with your point. If government created a level playing field by not subsidizing any of these activities, fees/revenue would rise to a point where the private sector could/should pay for these projects.
But, as long as mass transit and ports get subsidies from various government entities, we end up with severe economic distortions that prevent these things from happening. I have no problem with government facilitating large scale community wide projects but question when that same government causes distorted priorities by its subsidies which the community fails to fully perceive the effect of.QuoteOr perhaps you'd prefer we put some of that money towards extensions of the Skyway ;)
Or, perhaps not! LOL.
Noise walls are installed based on noie volumes (decibels)...I'm sure the folks in Mandarin will get the walls when FDOT adds auxiliary lanes (8-laning) to I-295 between SR 13 and I-95....that's supposed to happen in about 5 years.
(http://www.gcspd.com/Welcome_files/image006.jpg)
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2009, 01:00:31 PM
Quote from: stjr on October 21, 2009, 12:17:59 PM
Tufsu, when they were "planning" this, what was their goal? Urban sprawl? Destruction of rural, agricultural, forested, and wetland areas? Further straining fresh water supplies? It sure isn't going to accomplish "traffic relief". What is this Clay County "vision" you speak of? And, does St. Johns have a "vision" of their own?
I am sure the main goal for Clay County is economic development....they probably feel that having an expressway in their community will help attract potential development.
If this is really what Clay County wants, then taking any of these alternatives over, around, through, or behind the former NAS LEE FIELD is really cutting off their nose to spite their face! Unlike most of the abandoned area airports, Branon Field, Fleming Island, Lake Butler, Switzerland, Paxon etc... Lee Field was built to stay. It has extremely heavy CONCRETE and asphalt runways, taxi ways and tarmac areas. Some new and large aircraft hangers have gone up on the south side so the old airport has life. Living off the end of the East West runway in St. Johns County, I can tell you either the Navy still uses it for TAG flying, or there is a all female nudist colony on the St. Johns side, because those P-3's are mighty low.
The runways were WWII vintage and as I recall 5-6,000 feet, but the two main runways NE-SW, and N-S, could easily be stretched to 10 or 15,000 feet. (HINT: USN? MASTER JET BASE ANYONE?). Outside of the aircraft business and a rail car brake business, there is really nothing else that has ever taken root once the Navy pulled the plug.
Clay has moved with typical Florida Neanderthal blindness, when they took over the old Navy Mothball Fleet Base, across (North) from Lee Field. A Navy railroad served the NAS Lee Field, and about half way from US 17 to to the hanger area there is a large wye and junction. The old line crossed SR16 and fanned out along the docks where 200 ships once rode at dockside. Clay wanted to develop a "PORT" so the first thing they did was rip out all of the railroad, and put up a cute sign that is bound to attract steamship lines and barge companies from around the world. OCKLAWAHA
Ock ......I agree! This is only one reason that I say there is no plan and vision in Duval or St Johns. You have some sort of splinter system being considered and that boils down too a little here......a little there and the next thing you know we have concrete everywhere....along with the noise pollution (but those noise abatement bulkheads will control that right?) the strip malls, gas stations at every interchange and I have to ask why? From my view alot of what we are installing could be put on hold if we just went to a state wide rail system. There just does not IMO be a cohesive plan or vision that controls all of this. This is also why I say the so-called vision is basically made up as we move along! Then I look at new roads in the works, such as 9A and 9B supposedly to relieve congestion on 95 and say "What the Hell"? I see posts regarding the proposed Inner and Outer Beltways and think about just what we are going to be gaining.....more concrete and more development and start thinking about moving to a deserted Island......at least that way I could control just what takes place there....because I sure don't have a say in it here..........no representation for now or future generations!
The vision:
(http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/green/2009/04/15/albuquerque-sprawl.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2392/2460411535_2b679f3795.jpg)
The key will be getting Clay to understand economic development can happen in a more sustainable form instead of repeating the mistakes of Blanding and Fleming Island.
Most of the Branan Field corridor was designed to fix the flaws of Fleming Island.
Hell, even the WalMart off of Blanding is nicer than most you see (at least from the outside).
Many of the meetings I went to, Fleming Island was pointed at as what not to do.
The branan field master plan is still being worked off of and not forgotten.
http://clayedo.com/images/branan%20field%20master%20plan.pdf
If you notice, Oakleaf is not part of the Master Plan.
Granted, Clay has a ways to go, but they at least are thinking about it.
thanks for the link jandar....of course CS will still say they have no plan or vision!
tufsu1 as far as the City of Jacksonville is concerned .....I stand by my post...........no vision or plan. It is refreshing to see that other parts of Florida are taking into consideration urban sprawl, road planning and the like! I still would be more comfortable with something overseeing the continuity and interaction between the various agencies and not sure as to what would be the best way to do that. I look at what is trying to take place in the Orlando region but still have reservations about how that will come into being not only as a viable people moving system but something cost effective for the money it will cost!
To be real, the linked plan is really drawn at a 10,000 foot level and does nothing to ensure the integration of land uses and mixed use development, in a walkable fashion, at the pedestrian scale. From what's shown, it could be no different from another Oakleaf or Nocatee or in other words, master planned sprawl instead of piecemeal. Anyway, I hope I'm wrong for Clay County's sake.
QuoteI still would be more comfortable with something overseeing the continuity and interaction between the various agencies and not sure as to what would be the best way to do that.
In my opinion, the North Florida TPO is attempting to play this role. The major obstacle is that since the TPO is made up of stakeholders from various counties and cities, it becomes difficult to build consensus.
Cline.......I tend to agree with you! NFTPO is somewhat biased but it is transportation oriented and not urban oriented. Developers do their thing off of roads (Nocatee comes to mind for an example) and the original road was just a simple two lane that crossed a drawbridge heading into Jax Beach backside. Fancy new high rise bridge goes in and poof.........here comes Nocatee into life! Somehow with the proposed 9A and 9B extensions being pushed, makes me wonder just who owns that area and how do they plan to profit from our tax dollars putting those roads in? As far as I know .....there is no public/private enterprise being used.....just our tax dollars hard to work being used to profit others!
Lake,
http://www.claycountygov.com/Departments/Planning_Zoning/Plans_and_Amendments/Branan_Field_Plan/BRANAN%20FIELD%20LDRs.pdf
This includes such things as amount of parking spaces for food places, to signage, mandating reclaimed water use for irrigation, requiring that no more than 1% of external lighting goes beyond horizontal....
A quote from the PDF:
QuoteThe intent of the Branan Field Master Plan is to develop a pedestrian-friendly and walkable community. The strip shopping centers of other corridors in the County are geared to the automobile.
Oakleaf Town Center is in Duval County, and Oakleaf is not part of the Branan Field Plan.
Why not a 5 train daily, EACH WAY, "San Joaquin" style Florida Amtrak service from Jacksonville Terminal, Baldwin, Starke, Alachua, Gainesville? Sure would be a lot less money and after the coctail party, we could pour them on the train and send em back to school.
OCKLAWAHA
jandar, thanks for the link. Its good to see that has been included for future development in that section of Clay County.
I can't believe these posts....on the other hand,even tho "MJ" the roadway outlook is typically poor.
The Jax/Tampa concept went full speed ahead - for a time- during the Martinez administration.
The driver had always been Clay County/Braannon-Chaffee. And Reinhold.
The route proposal would have swung southwesterly across Black Creek and on toward the Gainesville area.
A series of public hearings were held...Gainesville and Micanopy area in militant-and very knowledgeable-opposition.
Palatka said "Yea!"....but all of a sudden we were no longer oriented towards "Tampa".
You would find the Gainesville region to be even more capable today in fighting back these decades old dreams of a different season.
Brannan/Chaffee "walkable" & "pedestrian friendly"
Certainly.The great Brannon/Chaffee sales job-all under the guise of "Growth Mangement"- will some day become clear.
'The more they spoke of their honor-the more we checked on our belongings'
Good job Planners & Consultants.
And the Clay county public workshop participants also said they wanted the place to be like Avondale.
(http://www.trainweb.org/canadianrailways/articles/graphics/rdc6135a.jpg)(http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/object3/467/105/n41528595791_5338.jpg)(http://novascotiarailwayheritage.com/Photo%20archive/Stewiacke-1990webJU.jpg)
(http://www.trainweb.org/ultradomes/trimet/1003e.jpg)
I keep hearing about this highway idea, just what we need another expressway up Black Creek... Besides a look at any of these photos should convince any of you that the highway is ALREADY THERE! Bet UF and Gainesville Transit and the COG, would completely get behind this idea.
OCKLAWAHA
To Brannon/Chaffee sector plan credit note there is right of way reserve concept for rail.
The perfect B/C sprawl storm was perfectly packaged.
in the Outer Beltway Dreamers thread stjr asks"'Bottom line,how do we kill the beltway for good?"
As I have noted, the legally binding "No Build" option quietly came and went, the beltway emerged as commom knowledge at exactly the time it is 'too late'.
With tongue in cheek,I suggest the way to 'kill' it:
Promote the old Jax/Tampa route with zeal and affection.....,and let the Gainesville area kill it.
Maybe not so tongue in cheek- seems diabolical enough to be worth some zeal.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 06, 2009, 12:31:54 AM
I keep hearing about this highway idea, just what we need another expressway up Black Creek... Besides a look at any of these photos should convince any of you that the highway is ALREADY THERE! Bet UF and Gainesville Transit and the COG, would completely get behind this idea.
Ock, a rail link from Gainesville to a US17/Roosevelt & I295 "station", a Downtown "station", and near the Airport would be a boon all. We get UF access and resources and the benefits of Gainesville residents visiting DT Jax, buying Jags tix, and boosting traffic at JIA to support more flights and Gainesville get's "big city" amenities and a real airport for travel. Extend the line down to Ocala and open some more doors. Tampa would be the brass ring.
By the way, what would you figure the travel time by such a train from DT Gainesville to I-295, DT Jax, and JIA would be?
Right now, the travel time would be about and hour and 45 minutes, maybe 2 with stops:
JACKSONVILLE
Baldwin
Starke
Alachua
GAINESVILLE
It's mainline all the way to Starke today, then a well maintained branchline through "dark territory" to Alachua, hence another branch (one time mainline of the ACL RR) that slowly degenerates as it moves south, finally vanishing into a right-of-way, a mile or so short of the Depot, which is across the street from the SWAMP! I really don't think the students would care much about the time and once up and running, there are several options using rebuilt track on current right -of- way, or if highly successful, on a new and direct path.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, no connection to Gainesville from the CSX leg running from Orange Park southbound? Could we lay some new tracks from US17 across Clay over to Camp Blanding and southwestward?
No, and your dealing with trail ridge, state forest, national conservation areas and the military. While far cheaper to build then any highway, cost per passenger mile might put it out of reach.
There is a rail trail from Waldo, straight as an arrow into Gainesville, passing within a city block or so of the airport terminal. Camp Blanding has a LARGE railroad system of it's own, but we'd never get access to it. Since the mid-east has started rattling the "world war" cage, the old base has come back to life. It's now a class 2 base, and regular army as well as other services are using the ranges and survival schools, and the POW school (which is NOT a nice place).
I see anything as coming through Baldwin, but we'd have three options down the, uh, track. All use either the current railroad lines, as I outlined, or:
JAX-Baldwin-Maxville-Lake Butler-Alachua-Gainesville (former ACL mainline), abandoned except for Alachua-Gainesville, but the grade is intact. It would use the current CSX west to Baldwin, the original of this line was our Baldwin Rail Trail.
JAX-Baldwin-Starke-Waldo-Gainesville. Abandoned between Waldo-Gainesville, reserved by a rail trail, the balance is CSX mainline.
OCKLAWAHA
so wait...if I use the logic that some are employing against HSR...why would I even pay a dime to take a train from Jax to Gainesville if the travel time is 30 minutes longer?
Good question. I certainly would not pay $60 round trip.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 07, 2009, 08:45:57 AM
so wait...if I use the logic that some are employing against HSR...why would I even pay a dime to take a train from Jax to Gainesville if the travel time is 30 minutes longer?
Oh, you've got me now tusfu1! Considering according to your wildest dreams and FDOT, Jacksonville will NEVER be connected to Gainesville. So we put 100,000 people in the city last weekend... how many do you think had to ride with someone else? Greyhound? Charters? A shuttle train service would make us an extension of the University of Florida. Not to mention it beats the hell out of walking, and I'm thinking in terms of commuter fares too. Next shuttle should be Tallahassee, so don't fret tusfu1. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 07, 2009, 11:37:05 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 07, 2009, 08:45:57 AM
so wait...if I use the logic that some are employing against HSR...why would I even pay a dime to take a train from Jax to Gainesville if the travel time is 30 minutes longer?
...Not to mention it beats the hell out of walking, and I'm thinking in terms of commuter fares too.... [/b]
The cost of a round trip rail ticket is probably far less than the speeding ticket you are sure to get in Waldo! :D
Not only Waldo, but Starke and Lawtey! Sounds like a plan to me fella's and I say go for it! I would like to see the constables for those parts of the world to radar,ladar or infrared a train......bet their till numbers go way down and then some and darn well worth it!
Recall attempts in the 1980's to swing a toll road from Brannon/Chaffee on in to G'Ville- G'Ville area killed it,for good reason.And they would do it again.The most ardent G'Ville enviros really chuckling at the recent profound 'surprise' of Jacksonvillians over the realization of the outer limits beltway.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/1914_ACL_FL.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/2158749956_8d0d777075.jpg)
Somebody bring the paint, I'll bring the shovels, this road is just waiting for us to reclaim it.
OCKLAWAHA
Not to beat a dead horse, but I will.
Clay and St. Johns, along with Jax and the State of Florida would benefit more from an enhanced connection from Jax to Gainesville, whether by road or rail, running through, or connecting to, their respective counties, than a wandering loop from I-10 to I-95 with nothing of consequence on either end or in the middle.
Stupid is as stupid does. Where is Forest Gump?! ::)
AMEN!
OCKLAWAHA
FYI...the state has been making gradual upgrades to US 301 from Ocala up to Jax....
This inludes the overpasses at SR 20 (complete) and SR 26 (under construction) in Alachua County....iwhich by the way, Sen. Dockery and the SunRail opponents claim are being done for the benefit of CSX.
There are also plans for a potential bypass of Starke.
TUFSU1, I'm thinking RAIL and only RAIL as our solution to both big school cities. With Rail as the anchor, urban development with intercity relationships would soar. FSU or UofF JAX? Totally possible if we'd just get with the program.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock.........I concur! There are obvious benefits for all if rail were to make the big Circle! Something along those lines makes lots of sense since any auto useage would be curtailed with other transportation options! Not to mention Carbon foot print reduction!
Rail would be great for student travel. Cheaper than air, no need to have a car at school, can carry more luggage to and from the dorm than by air, can "drink and drive" with no consequences, Mom and Dad don't have to worry about teenage driving on two lane rural roads at night or falling asleep at the wheel during a late night drive, etc. Students siblings and friends could do the same.
Faculty coming to the Jax airport or making "big city" day trips for conferences or presentations could productively work during the ride on the rails rather than lose 3 hours round trip having to drive.
Likewise, for visitors to UF from Jax.
I wonder what it would take to run a rail line from FEC to CSX connecting by running along side the existing Shands Bridge?
Engineering is pretty cut and dried since it is pretty shallow.....I would bet that a new bridge is not on the wish list of NTP.....if it were then it would be just a question of time before it would happen...........maybe someone can put a bug in their ears? New Bridge with rail capabilities!
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 18, 2009, 10:35:45 PM
FYI...the state has been making gradual upgrades to US 301 from Ocala up to Jax....
There are also plans for a potential bypass of Starke.
That bypass would kill any chance of Rail. That would cut the trip time down by 20 minutes at least.
However, if we could get a train into Gainesville, that could spark a streetcar line down University. University connects from the rail line west through downtown, through campus, down to University & 34th, which could become a great area for a student TOD. There is already a strong corridor of development along University, but this would push it way over the top. This would really put G-ville on the map. I would say this development alone is worth the advocacy for a rail line from J-Ville to G-Ville.
Gainesville could greatly benefit from street car rail down University.
Open a few parking lots/garages and students could park and get to class a whole lot easier.
Should supporting rail transit to/from/in Gainesville mean that the residents and businesses of Starke should continue to suffer the negative impacts of "external" traffic through their city?
Suffer.....? They seem to be doing just fine. Looks to me like they're capitalizing off the influx of people.
Yeah, despite the brutal traffic through Starke, it sure seems like 301 is kind of the lifeblood of their tax base.
I know they tried to build a bypass around Starke several years back, and local businesses had a fit because they feared Starke would die without the direct traffic supporting all the gas stations, fast food, etc.
Not so long ago, and not so far away, I present THE GULF COAST SPECIAL, in Gainesville, for your viewing pleasure. (http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/GainesvilleACLdepot.jpg)
1969, two years before Amtrak killed the train and about 2 decades short of abandonment of the through route to St. Petersburg and Tampa, via the center of the State.
stjr, I don't think the traffic is going to support your Shands Railroad Bridge, just not that much demand from WGV to Green Cove Springs! HEY! Maybe a SKYWAY! Just for the present, any Gainesville train would have to be a bit long in the schedule and a tad circuitous in it's route. The benefit is we pick up greater metropolitan Burnett's Lake and Alachua.
QuoteShould supporting rail transit to/from/in Gainesville mean that the residents and businesses of Starke should continue to suffer the negative impacts of "external" traffic through their city?
In case you've missed it, the Army Base being upgraded to a training center and operated full time has created a mini-boom in Starke. Starke would be the junction point of any train to Gainesville today and would probably feel an increase of traffic as better access would allow soldiers to come into town or go to the "big city". Quite a few new hotels are within walking distance of the depot, which is STILL in use, albeit for freight service only. OCKLAWAHA
I agree that Starke definitely benefits from the through traffic, but there still are some negative impacts....these should be the primary issues in whether or not a bypass should be supported.
The issue of a train to/from/in Gainesville should not be much of a factor.
We are past the days when dotted lines could be drawn across wide swaths of area in the 'planning' and 'promotion' of vast roadways.
Just because a given acreage or parcel is 'undeveloped' does not mean that it is up for grabs ot unspoken assumptions.
The greatest aspect of 'NIMBY' is in the fact the great number of 'B'- backyards so to speak.We have in fact 'grown',and the liberal dose of 'B' is testimony.
Earlier attempts at a Jax/Tampa route during the Martinez administration were skillfully fought back by Gainesville area interests. (Some would say "activist",or my favorite: "Extremist").
Jacksonville is likely one of the last regions to wring it's neck with a beltway.
Now,even around Starke we see an increase in persons who have selected the area for acreage,recreational farming.The woods are full of such folks,just as seen in the earlier Gainesville experience.
And then there are state and regional planning initiatives,such as the "O2O' project-an abitious conservation/recreation plan linking Ocala National Forest with Osceola National Forest.It's like one big game of chess.Recall the long established Clay County beltway location dream was modified due to subsequent conservation lands purchases.The list is endless.
As a practical matter, exisiting major arterial function shopuld be guarded.Tough to do due to local political pressures....Blanding Blvd. a perfect poster child.
Quote from: north miami on November 23, 2009, 01:30:06 PM
Jacksonville is likely one of the last regions to wring it's neck with a beltway.
Don't tell that to the folks in Orlando who are just finishing their beltway....or those in the Tampa Bay area studying a "beltway" east of I-75
.............note: "one of the last"-
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 20, 2009, 11:30:00 AM
stjr, I don't think the traffic is going to support your Shands Railroad Bridge, just not that much demand from WGV to Green Cove Springs!
Ock, just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting such a bridge for WGV to Green Cove, but rather as a link in Jax-I-295/I-95/US1/Mandarin-Gainesville-Tampa, as opposed to Jax-Baldwin-Gainesville-Tampa. Connecting through the Jax southside would bring on a much greater population and be of more value to them than the alternate would be to those residents who are already closer to US301 and I-10/I-75. It would also be attractive to those in St. Augustine/St. Johns County and Clay County and offer them an incentive and solace to give up on the Outer Beltway through their counties.
(http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wtsp/images/2010/proposed-rail-line.jpg)
Re: High Speed Rail: I think the route from Tampa northward should go direct to Jax, not follow I-75 to I-10 as shown. We will just create another bypass of Jax between Tampa and Atlanta and delete a golden chance to greatly improve our connections with Tampa, Atlanta, AND Gainesville. Jax leaders should not let the interstate route history repeat itself to the detriment of our economy and get out in front of this while they can.
Outer Beltway push continues. Note quote citing it's needed for economic development with the usual bone toss of an ephemeral promise of relieving traffic on some other road. Translation: Build the road so developers can get rich. Reality: Developers get rich and traffic problems explode, don't disappear. Urban sprawl machine at full speed. Environment and greenscape sacrificed.QuoteNortheast Florida residents getting update on beltway
Plans are moving forward, but specifics are still not decided.
* By Larry Hannan
* Story updated at 3:48 AM on Saturday, Feb. 20, 2010
If everything goes according to plan, the First Coast Outer Beltway from Interstate 10 in Duval County to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County could be built and open to the public sometime in 2015.
That's the best-case scenario that assumes a private contractor will want to build it, gets it done on time and the project doesn't get bogged down in permitting issues.
Considering the state wants a private contractor to spend at least $1.8 billion of its own money to build and maintain the toll road and that the St. Johns Water Management District has several concerns about the project, delays seem likely.
In the next two weeks, people will get a chance to look at the Outer Beltway plans when the Florida Department of Transportation holds four public meetings in Clay, Duval and St. Johns counties to discuss the project and seek public comment.
Cecil Commerce Parkway, Branan Field Road and Baxley Road will be part of the Beltway when it's finished. But Project Manager Brandi Vittur said there are multiple alternatives for how the roadway could be built. All will be shown and discussed during the public meetings.
The Transportation Department says the road could end at I-95 between County Road 210 and International Golf Parkway. But it is also considering ending it at the future Florida 9B, which is farther north on I-95.
The state has planned to build a new, 65-foot bridge near the existing Shands Bridge south of Green Cove Springs because the existing bridge is too low. But it hasn't ruled out building the beltway's bridge north of Green Cove Springs.
Because of concerns about damaging the Bayard Point Conservation area, the Transportation Department has come up with several ways the road could run west of the St. Johns River. The plan is being examined by staff from the St. Johns Water Management District, which must grant a permit to the project before it proceeds, spokeswoman Teresa Monson said.
Clay Commissioner Doug Conkey said he expects the road to be built south of Green Cove Springs and connect to I-95 between County Road 210 and International Golf Parkway. The Clay and St. Johns county commissions have both said they prefer that be the option.
Getting the beltway built is essential to creating economic development in Clay County, and it will also help ease congestion on other roads like Blanding Boulevard, Conkey said.
After the public meetings, the Transportation Department will study whether it's feasible for a private contractor to build the Outer Beltway and make a profit by operating it as a toll road during the next 40 to 50 years. The state doesn't have the money to build the road and wants to hire a private firm to build and maintain it while charging a yet-to-be-determined toll to recoup its investment.
If it's determined money can be made in the deal, the Transportation Department will go forward. The study should be complete by this summer, Project Manager Jim Knight said.
Officials also will likely face questions on why the road needs to be tolled. At several previous meeting Clay residents criticized the plan to toll the road.
Middleburg resident Joseph Demers said he would probably attend one of the meetings.
"We definitely need this road, but I don't want to have to pay a toll to go to the grocery store," he said, while adding that he hoped to learn more about how the tolling would work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Beltway options â€" Florida Department of Transportation officials want citizen feeback on whether the First Coast Outer Beltway should have a bridge over the St. Johns River north or south of Green Cove Springs. They also want feedback on where the road should meet with I-95 in St. Johns County. (Note: In the paper, the half dozen or so option maps were published but not included on the T-U web site.)
Giving input
The Outer Beltway will be discussed at four meetings in the next two weeks. Information on the project can be found at www.sjrbridge.com. People wishing to comment on the project can speak at the meeting or e-mail Brandi Vittur at brandi.vittur@dot.state.fl.us.
The public meeting times are:
- Monday, Feb. 22 World Golf Village Renaissance Resort 500 S. Legacy Trail St. Augustine Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, Feb. 25 St. Johns Community College Thrasher Horne Conference Center 283 College Drive Orange Park Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Tuesday, March 2 Clay County Fairgrounds 2496 W. Florida 16 Green Cove Springs Doors open: 3 p.m. Presentation: 4:30 p.m. with a repeat at 7 p.m.
- Thursday, March 4 Cecil Conference Center 12541 Lake Newman St. Jacksonville Doors open: 4:30 p.m. Presentation: 6:30 p.m.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-02-20/story/northeast_florida_residents_getting_update_on_beltway
More development in Clay = hardship for us in Duval County, especially Mandarin, Yukon, and vicinity.
Push the bridge north of Green Cove Springs, not south. This would alleviate traffic in clay/duval congestion areas.
BTW Reed, more development, if it keeps residents in county for work is a good thing for Duval. most people in Clay commute daily, if they stayed in county, it would help Duval's traffic issues, just like building a bridge around Fleming Island over to I95 through fruit cove would help Mandarin traffic from St Johns County residents as well.
Quote from: jandar on February 20, 2010, 05:16:01 PM
Push the bridge north of Green Cove Springs, not south. This would alleviate traffic in clay/duval congestion areas.
BTW Reed, more development, if it keeps residents in county for work is a good thing for Duval. most people in Clay commute daily, if they stayed in county, it would help Duval's traffic issues, just like building a bridge around Fleming Island over to I95 through fruit cove would help Mandarin traffic from St Johns County residents as well.
Jandar, this logic is what feeds the cancer of urban sprawl. Let's build interstates through and around every county in the country so any job can go anywhere.
Most people moved to Clay and St. Johns to work in Jax, not those counties. Put jobs in those counties, and the next wave will repeat your logic and demand to live and work in even further outlying counties rather than commute to Clay and St. Johns. Then those outlying counties will want their own interstate highways. Where does it end? When everything is paved over and developed?
If people in St. Johns and Clay want to live near where most jobs are, they should move into existing developed areas in Duval closer to existing work or accept the commute they bargained for by moving so far out. We need to accept that some areas and counties need to forever remain rural and green, not suburban/urban and asphalt/concrete. If someone moves to a rural county, they should accept that lifestyle, not try and change it into something else that destroys the very thing that attracted them in the first place.
The Hibernia - Greenbriar bridge is about 1/2 way between the Buckman and the Shand's. Stjr, I think we all agree that SPRAWL that Jandar is promoting would be a disaster. I think I understand his viewpoint though, for any kid in love with a city, that city will be or should be, "the biggest", "the best," "the most"... etc. I think Jacksonville is the best city of opportunity in the USA, but that shouldn't blind us to it's faults, rather, we should fight all the harder to make it even better.
OCKLAWAHA
Excuse me? WTF am I promoting sprawl?
Hell F*** no. But unlike the idiots on this board they think that everyone wants to live on a rail line or in a city with buses every where, there will always be a suburb next to a city. Guess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM. I love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.
Forcing the bridge around hibernia would alleviate existing traffic. You want to bitch about clay traffic being bad? Guess what, its duval and st johns traffic as well on 295. Get over it.
Adding the bridge opens a new route. Its the same ole issues from everyone in Duval (and Im 4th generation westsider so eff off). Block clay traffic, keep them in county for daring to have a yard with room and not build on top of each other. Eff them for wanting to have a much better (by a long shot) school system for their kids.
No, instead, you think development is bad. Its only bad when it is out of control. It's going to happen eventually, why not control it? Stop being an ostrich.
Building the beltway south of Green Cove opens land for suburbs, building it north of Green Cove doesn't. Its that simple.
BTW, if not for all of those workers that commute from St Johns and Clay, there would not be half the higher tech higher ed jobs that Jacksonville loves to boast about. Go ask your co-workers. A good 25-40% depending upon the industry work in Jax and live in Clay/St Johns/Baker/Nassau or farther out.
There will always be alternate routes for going places. I don't touch I95 or I295 when I go to St Augustine. I take SR 16 over. If I go to Starke/Gainesville, I take SR16. If I go to Orlando/Mt Dora, I sometimes take US17. To get into Jax, I have to take Blanding, US17 or Chaffee. There is no other route. Two of those routes are overcrowded.
Now, instead of working with Clay and St Johns Counties, you insist on being an arrogant big brother and state how dare they build an outerbeltway and not consult us? I say go for it. Duval has been shitting on Clay and St Johns for too long.
Quote from: jandar on February 21, 2010, 10:51:14 AM
Guess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM. I love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.
Maybe the connection hasn't been made, but the more dense and sustainable areas of town we have, the more rural areas we have left over.
Quote from: stephendare on February 21, 2010, 11:22:52 AM
Its not about whether or not you would prefer to use a train or a road, but whether or not there is a good enough reason for all of us to pitch in and build a huge highway
Not that I am in favor of the Outer Beltway....but you do know that it wouldn't be built with tax dollars, right?
If the road is built, it wll be funded with private capital...and that outlay will be repaid over years (with profit) by users of the roadway.
Ignoring other sprawl costs (which admittedly may be high), taxpayers would actually pay less because we wouldn't be paying for replacement of the Shandfs Bridge.
Here are my problems with the proposed PPP aspect of the Outer Beltway.
1. A similar privately funded road project just failed in South Carolina. Who will be responsible for the road and its continued maintenance if the PPP fails?
2. If the road is a success, who will pay for the upgrading of the infrastructure needed to feed drivers into it? After all, nothing in life is "free".
3. Last but not least, if this thing is a needed as people claim it is and money is to be made, it would have been built by now. Because no one from the private sector is jumping to finance this thing, something tells me its not all peaches and cream and some of the initial estimates were perhaps.......cooked. Thus again, when it fails, who will be responsible for it? If it falls on the back of the taxpayer, is this something we want to see our money spent on instead of addressing real priorities?
Quote from: jandar on February 21, 2010, 10:51:14 AM
Excuse me? WTF am I promoting sprawl?
In a word, yes. Jandar, your attitude is exactly the problem. You say you don't support urban sprawl but then you turn around and advocate for exactly what causes it. Cussing out everyone who disagrees with you sure isn't going to make for a convincing argument, whatever your position, to boot.Quote... unlike the idiots on this board they think that everyone wants to live on a rail line or in a city with buses every where, there will always be a suburb next to a city.
This isn't about a suburb next to a city, its about suburbs next to suburbs next to still more suburbs - and where does it all end? Rail comes up when it becomes impossible or unsustainable to keep building roads like the Outer Beltway. Many feel we are now at that point. You are RESPECTFULLY entitled to your opinion.QuoteGuess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM.
Gun shots and loud music? You think Clay and St. Johns are immune? You think all 800+ square miles of Duval County have those problems? You are just highlighting how desperate you are to justify your position with a nonsense argument like this.QuoteI love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.
You want stars, no light pollution, and some wild animals. How long do you think that will be available to you when an interstate beltway comes through your neck of the woods? Not long. Just check anywhere around I-295 and see your future. (P.S. Not much creates more light pollution than road and interchange lighting.)QuoteForcing the bridge around hibernia would alleviate existing traffic. You want to bitch about clay traffic being bad? Guess what, its duval and st johns traffic as well on 295. Get over it.
Jandar, why the persecution complex? The Outer Beltway goes through three counties. Opposition comes from all three. Clay does appear to be the head cheerleader for this road which puts them front and center. Opponents claim Clay and those supporting this road in Duval and St. Johns are clinging to false promises and hopes regarding its benefits. Existing Clay traffic issues aren't being ignored. Some of us believe that mass transit is the far better solution.
The Outer Beltway relieving existing traffic is a red herring. It really won't for long, if ever, improve traffic anywhere. In short order, it will make traffic in all three counties far worse as more development pops up along its path. As you note, just look to I-295 for proof. It sure hasn't done much to relieve traffic, just created more of it through support of increased sprawl.QuoteAdding the bridge opens a new route. Its the same ole issues from everyone in Duval (and Im 4th generation westsider so eff off). Block clay traffic, keep them in county for daring to have a yard with room and not build on top of each other. Eff them for wanting to have a much better (by a long shot) school system for their kids.
No one is trying to block Clay traffic. 30+ years ago, no one in Clay was blocked. Clay traffic is blocked because Clay has over promoted sprawl in its county. The Outer Beltway is just more of the same. Want to unblock traffic jams? Don't build more roads, build more mass transit. We are near the limit on roads. That is part of the point here. It's time to do something different. Road building just perpetuates the existing problems.
This isn't about Clay schools unless you are interested in talking about how overcrowded they will become when they can't keep up with development brought by the Outer Beltway.QuoteNo, instead, you think development is bad. Its only bad when it is out of control. It's going to happen eventually, why not control it? Stop being an ostrich.
Development is out of control so it is bad. We agree. Controlled development? You are dreaming. Florida and its local jurisdictions, including Clay, Duval, and St. Johns, have never controlled development and there is no sign that change is in sight. Those woods behind you will one day be rezoned for residential tract housing or commercial complexes to feed into that beltway you support and no one will be able to stop it. Your only chance to control development is to not feed the beast by building roads such as the Outer Beltway.QuoteBuilding the beltway south of Green Cove opens land for suburbs, building it north of Green Cove doesn't. Its that simple.
The Outer Beltway will open land for suburbs everywhere inside of it and a good bit outside (by at least several miles) of its pathway. The road will be dozens of miles long and encompass far more than just Green Cove Springs and cross through three counties. So, it's not so simple.QuoteBTW, if not for all of those workers that commute from St Johns and Clay, there would not be half the higher tech higher ed jobs that Jacksonville loves to boast about. Go ask your co-workers. A good 25-40% depending upon the industry work in Jax and live in Clay/St Johns/Baker/Nassau or farther out.
People that work in Jax and live in St. Johns and Clay are able to do so because we subsidize and support them with projects like I-295, I-95, 9B, JTB, and other major roads. Without those roads, people would be demanding to live closer in to avoid the traffic on the original rural 2 lane roads long since replaced. I would also suggest that none of your subjects would be living in Clay and St. Johns if Jax didn't create the jobs, not the other way around.QuoteThere will always be alternate routes for going places. I don't touch I95 or I295 when I go to St Augustine. I take SR 16 over. If I go to Starke/Gainesville, I take SR16. If I go to Orlando/Mt Dora, I sometimes take US17. To get into Jax, I have to take Blanding, US17 or Chaffee. There is no other route. Two of those routes are overcrowded.
Transportation is built based on how we collectively move about, not you, yourself, alone. No one is going to build a road or transportation system to suit just you. If you don't like traffic on I-95 and I-295, why don't you use those alternate routes you say you have and stop complaining.QuoteNow, instead of working with Clay and St Johns Counties, you insist on being an arrogant big brother and state how dare they build an outerbeltway and not consult us? I say go for it. Duval has been shitting on Clay and St Johns for too long.
No one is being arrogant or dumping on your home county. If anything, we are trying to support the way of life you claim to have and love. The environment, traffic, and other sprawl issues don't stop at county lines or other political boundaries. Everyone in NE Florida is in this together. You are acting as if you are living on an island, immune from all that goes around you. Sorry, that just isn't so.
My bet is, if the Outer Beltway gets built and ruins your "rural" lifestyle, as I predict, you will be the first to move out of Clay. Was the Westside's development in connection with the building of I-295 a factor in why you left the Westside after 4 generations in pursuit of "rural" Clay County?
Tufsu, as to the road being privately built, it doesn't matter who pays for the road. The fact is, if it gets built, more road congestion will follow it soon after and all taxpayers will be asked to pay for that creating a taxpayer subsidy for the Outer Beltway's consequences. And, additional taxpayer subsidies for the ensuing urban sprawl development (such as utility and storm water infrastructure, feeder roads, schools, police, fire, courts, public services, etc.) won't be coming from the road builders, the developers, or solely all those new neighbors surrounding Jandar.
When does it stop? That's a good question. This is essentially our third loop.
1. Edgewood/Cassat & University
2. I-295/9A
3. Outer Beltway?
Does anyone have the estimated costs for the following?
1. Tolls. Greenville's South Connector is struggling with $2 tolls. What will be the Outer Beltways?
2. Connector streets. Who pays for all of these new roads planned to tie into Outer Beltway interchanges, such as the 218 bypass?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/First-Coast-Outer-Beltway/CSplanrdpink04/793865240_cyVGa-L.jpg)
Quote from: stephendare on February 21, 2010, 02:56:28 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 21, 2010, 02:37:28 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 21, 2010, 11:22:52 AM
Its not about whether or not you would prefer to use a train or a road, but whether or not there is a good enough reason for all of us to pitch in and build a huge highway
Not that I am in favor of the Outer Beltway....but you do know that it wouldn't be built with tax dollars, right?
If the road is built, it wll be funded with private capital...and that outlay will be repaid over years (with profit) by users of the roadway.
Ignoring other sprawl costs (which admittedly may be high), taxpayers would actually pay less because we wouldn't be paying for replacement of the Shandfs Bridge.
TUFSU.
what a bunch of naive nonsense.
this from your vast transportation knowledge?
as to your questions Lake...
the info. I've seen says that tolls will be around $0.20 per mile...which means travelling the whole 45+ mile length will cost about $10 (with a $1 surcharge for the river crossing).
any future new road (such as 218 extneion in Clay or CR 2209 extension in St. Johns) that could connect with the Outer Beltway would be funded by developers or local tax dollars (or a combination of both).
Lake, your sample interchange highlights another issue and expense. This interchange is typical of the built "on the cheap" diamond intersections favored by FDOT and JTA, complete with traffic congesting traffic lights.
As it has inevitably happened everywhere else, when the cheaply built interchange needs major upgrades (added lanes, longer turn lanes, flyovers, more land, etc.) upon traffic buildup over time, who pays for the tens and hundreds of millions for this? Toll payers/road operator? Or taxpayers?
Also, for non-ez-pay users, how are tolls collected at the exits? Is room and expense needed for manned toll booths?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 21, 2010, 08:32:31 PM
as to your questions Lake...
the info. I've seen says that tolls will be around $0.20 per mile...which means travelling the whole 45+ mile length will cost about $10 (with a $1 surcharge for the river crossing).
any future new road (such as 218 extneion in Clay or CR 2209 extension in St. Johns) that could connect with the Outer Beltway would be funded by developers or local tax dollars (or a combination of both).
Jax taxpayers revolted over 25 cent tolls. I can't imagine how conservative, anti-tax Clay county will react to $10 to $11 tolls.
Tufsu, so how will interchange costs be allocated between the Beltway and the taxpayer owners of the connecting roads? If, as you say, the Beltway is truly not at expense to taxpayers, ALL interchange costs should be paid by the Beltway operator since there would be no interchange without the Beltway.
Quote from: jandar on February 21, 2010, 10:51:14 AM
Excuse me? WTF am I promoting sprawl?
Hell F*** no. But unlike the idiots on this board they think that everyone wants to live on a rail line or in a city with buses every where, there will always be a suburb next to a city. Guess what? I enjoy not hearing a freakin gunshot or some punk blasting his stereo at 2AM. I love being able to sit in my backyard and see some stars and not light pollution. I love the fact that I come home and have to chase boars off of my property or get rid of a dead rabbit that died on my doorstep.
Forcing the bridge around hibernia would alleviate existing traffic. You want to bitch about clay traffic being bad? Guess what, its duval and st johns traffic as well on 295. Get over it.
Adding the bridge opens a new route. Its the same ole issues from everyone in Duval (and Im 4th generation westsider so eff off). Block clay traffic, keep them in county for daring to have a yard with room and not build on top of each other. Eff them for wanting to have a much better (by a long shot) school system for their kids.
No, instead, you think development is bad. Its only bad when it is out of control. It's going to happen eventually, why not control it? Stop being an ostrich.
Building the beltway south of Green Cove opens land for suburbs, building it north of Green Cove doesn't. Its that simple.
BTW, if not for all of those workers that commute from St Johns and Clay, there would not be half the higher tech higher ed jobs that Jacksonville loves to boast about. Go ask your co-workers. A good 25-40% depending upon the industry work in Jax and live in Clay/St Johns/Baker/Nassau or farther out.
There will always be alternate routes for going places. I don't touch I95 or I295 when I go to St Augustine. I take SR 16 over. If I go to Starke/Gainesville, I take SR16. If I go to Orlando/Mt Dora, I sometimes take US17. To get into Jax, I have to take Blanding, US17 or Chaffee. There is no other route. Two of those routes are overcrowded.
Now, instead of working with Clay and St Johns Counties, you insist on being an arrogant big brother and state how dare they build an outerbeltway and not consult us? I say go for it. Duval has been shitting on Clay and St Johns for too long.
Brother I completely understand about wanting to live in a place with room to spread your legs. I grew up in a place where we had to drive half an hour to get to the nearest "city" which only had about 30,000 people in it. But you have to understand that how we plan out these roads and such sets the stage for how the land will be used in the future. If we criss cross Clay and St. Johns with these highways eventually that open space you talk about will be filled in a way that destroys the lifestyle you are talking about.
Look at Southern California as an example. All this area that was once a desert is miles and miles of suburbs and freeways. When my parents lived in the Inland Empire area (East of LA around San Bernadino/Riverside) they would drive a couple of hours to work in terrible traffic despite all of the expressways built with 6 lanes each way. The air quality was awful, and there was very little wildlife like you talk about. What little remaining green space there was constantly in danger of being developed or catching fire, and in fact the orange groves directly behind their house became more houses shortly after they moved away. Even though they were in a suburban area there were still the issues with crime and noise pollution that you'd find in a city. Then there was always a drought in effect due to everyone wanting to grow a green lawn in the middle of a desert and have their own little slice of green to call their own. We do not want Clay and St. Johns counties to turn into Southern California's endless suburbs. Believe me it's miserable.
It's not that Duval county is trying to thumb their noses at Clay or St. Johns counties. It's a matter of how can we make NE Florida a better place to live and work as a whole. If we plan out the basic foundations of our communities such as roadways in a smart and sustainable way, we can improve the quality of life for city folks and country folks and those in between for years to come.
That said I say either we streamline 301 or build rail to better connect the Jax to Gainesville for just the reasons already stated. No need to reinvent the wheel. Then abandon the outer beltway idea in its current form except maybe the parts where Cecil is connected to I-10 and the part where the Shands bridge is rebuilt. Then we focus on promoting smart urban infill and improving transportation
within the city and existing suburbs. I am self-professed country bumpkin living in Riverside (in Jax not CA) and loving it...which goes to show that living in an urban environment does not have to mean sacrificing quality of life.
Quote from: stjr on February 21, 2010, 09:00:21 PM
Tufsu, so how will interchange costs be allocated between the Beltway and the taxpayer owners of the connecting roads? If, as you say, the Beltway is truly not at expense to taxpayers, ALL interchange costs should be paid by the Beltway operator since there would be no interchange without the Beltway.[/b]
yes...all interchanges to existing roads will be built with the beltway...where future roads are planned, the ROW for the interchanges will be acquired and most likely overpasses built w/ the beltway.
Check out the Suncoast Pkwy in Pasco County (Ridge Rd overpass) for an example
Quote from: stjr on February 21, 2010, 08:52:42 PM
Lake, your sample interchange highlights another issue and expense. This interchange is typical of the built "on the cheap" diamond intersections favored by FDOT and JTA, complete with traffic congesting traffic lights.
actually the example Lake showed is of a single point urban interchnage (SPUI)...these are actually more expensive than typical diamond interchanges to construct, but take up less ROW and are more efficient as all movements converge on one traffic signal.
Many of the Southside, Beach, and 9A interchanges in Jax. are this type.
^Tufsu, nonetheless, still with traffic lights and a lot cheaper than a full interchange without need for lights. Again, how are interchanges paid for, now and when they need to be upgraded later?
Quote from: stjr on February 21, 2010, 11:07:36 PM
^Tufsu, nonetheless, still with traffic lights and a lot cheaper than a full interchange without need for lights. Again, how are interchanges paid for, now and when they need to be upgraded later?
as things stand now, interchanges are most often funded by the public through gas taxes....of course there are examples (St. Augustine Rd and IGP) of interchanges that are funded by other sources.
in the Outer Beltway, the interchanges would be funded up front by the operator...my guess is that future improvements to those interchanges that affect the ramps would be done by the road operator (as the other toll roads in the state are)....improvements to the "intersecting" roadways would be the responsibility of someone else.
Gentlemen............I keep coming back to WTF? Why is not FDOT operating in a manner that is conducive to overall sprawl inhibiting? Roads, just for the sake of roads, seems to me, IMHO, just concrete, concrete and more concrete! There does not appear to any Department anywhere which takes this into consideration.....I would rather enhance what we have before we start building anew more roads...........what the heck happened to a mass transit system that would start taking the place of roads? For what we spend on interchanges and crossings we could have something world class but we seem more inclinced to put down more asphalt which I don't think is the long term answer!
Just to keep this thread current, posting this article below. Also, see thread on this article at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7991.msg140615/topicseen.html#newQuoteCrist says Beltway moving forward in campaign-style speech
Posted: March 25, 2010 - 6:51pm
By Larry Hannan
Charlie Crist has been popular for much of his political career.
But on Wednesday, Florida's governor - in danger of being rejected by his own political party - got applause in Jacksonville for promising something most people hate: road construction.
In an address that sounded more like a campaign speech than a construction announcement, Crist said work on the First Coast Outer Beltway from Interstate 10 in Duval County to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County will be expedited. The state will begin meeting with private contractors next month to solicit bids on the $1.8 billion project.
The state hopes a private contractor will build the roadway and recoup the money through tolls, creating the first Northeast Florida toll road in a generation.
Although Crist said it was too early to determine when construction might begin, he touted the Outer Beltway as an innovative public-private project that was needed in a down economy.
"This is a chance for government to reach out to the free enterprise system and encourage innovation," he said.
Having drawn the ire of the some Republicans for his support for the federal stimulus, the governor made the announcement in front of a new overpass being built at Plantation Oaks Boulevard over Branan Field Road at the border between Clay and Duval counties.
The $8.2 million project is being paid for with federal stimulus money.
Recent polls have Crist trailing former House Speaker Marco Rubio in the Republican U.S. Senate primary by 20 points or more. GOP activists have blasted the governor for not being conservative enough.
During the construction announcement, and another speech earlier in the day to the Clay County Chamber of Commerce, Crist repeatedly referred to himself as a conservative who idolized Ronald Reagan and believed in getting government off of people's backs.
He also touted the fact the economy has gotten better and urged a Times-Union reporter to mention that homes sales are increasing in Florida.
The Outer Beltway is a model of his philosophy, Crist said, because government is "empowering" the private sector to do something.
However, it remains unclear if a private company exists that wants to pay $1.8 billion. The state lacks the money to build the road itself.
State Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos said companies would find the project attractive. She couldn't say to who might be interested until the state started talking to individual companies.
Clay Commission Chairman Travis Cummings said the road would bring economic development to the region and praised the decision to build it as a public-private partnership.
"In a better economic climate the approaches of the past might have worked," he said. "But right now we need innovation."
http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2010-03-25/story/crist-says-beltway-moving-forward-campaign-style-speech
QuoteAlthough Crist said it was too early to determine when construction might begin, he touted the Outer Beltway as an innovative public-private project that was needed in a down economy.
D
id it ever to occur to Charlie that by the time this baby gets going, the economy may have already bounced back? What would he say the reason for building it then would be?QuoteState Transportation Secretary Stephanie Kopelousos said companies would find the project attractive. She couldn't say to who might be interested until the state started talking to individual companies.
Great example of political double talk that says nothing. She's so sure but she hasn't even spoken to anyone who might know? Dream, baby, dream.QuoteClay Commission Chairman Travis Cummings said the road would bring economic development to the region and praised the decision to build it as a public-private partnership.
Economic development. Urban sprawl. Be careful what you wish for.
"Did it ever to occur to Charlie that by the time this baby gets going, the economy may have already bounced back? What would he say the reason for building it then would be?"
Isn't this the case for almost all stimulus programs Rep or Dem? Doing nothing allows the economy to bounce back faster on it's own.
As many may deduce, and as has been published regarding this reason for this staggering harbinger of wreckless corruption -- evacuation route.