Didn't see a separate thread for this, so I thought I'd make one.
JTA Considering Commuter Rail Between Jacksonville And St. Johns Countyhttps://news.wjct.org/post/jta-considering-commuter-rail-between-jacksonville-and-st-johns-county
QuoteThe Jacksonville Transportation Authority is considering building a commuter rail between St. Johns and Duval Counties.
During a St. Johns County Chamber of Commerce event last week, Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) CEO Nat Ford said he was in talks with St. Augustine leaders and others about creating a commuter rail, as was reported in The St. Augustine Record (https://www.staugustine.com/story/news/traffic/2021/03/30/st-johns-county-could-see-commuter-rail-deal-traffic-growth/7013200002/).
For context, here (https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/23708131/first-coast-commuter-rail-feasibility-study-jacksonville-) is the study from 2009 on commuter rail.
One thing that confuses me upfront is that JTA received $877k last year (https://www.masstransitmag.com/management/press-release/21202767/federal-transit-administration-fta-fta-awards-62-million-in-tod-planning-grants) to plan TOD at four stations along what seems to be the Southeast Corridor. Where did that money go?
QuoteJacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) in Florida will receive $877,068 in funding to plan for TOD at four stations in the initial phase of the proposed 38.4-mile First Coast commuter rail project in Northeast Florida.
Also, apparently six years ago, there was supposed to be another study (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/05/20/st-augustine-drivers-might-be-getting-a-cure-for.html) on commuter rail. What happened to that?
QuoteThe Jacksonville Transportation Authority is studying the viability of a commuter rail system on the Southeast corridor, between Downtown and St. Augustine.
The study, which will be completed this time next year, looks at potential ridership, the cost to build and operate the systems and where the stations would be. The study being conducted by Parsons Brinckerhoff costs $525,000
There's nothing in the gas tax list about commuter rail. There is some money for a PD&E Study to relocate the passenger rail station back downtown. It would be good to see additional money set aside to actually move the passenger rail station back downtown. In other words, let's do more than create 35% design plans.
As for commuter rail, we've been here before. I'm a rail fan but I don't think it makes sense to pursue on the FEC before addressing any potential intercity partnering opportunities with Brightline (same for Amtrak with the CSX A line). You piggyback off improvements made by intercity rail, not move on things before. That's how you get a 13.5 mile commuter rail line less than 1/2 the cost for Miami-Dade taxpayers than what Jax taxpayers are being asked to pay to convert the Skyway into the U2C:
QuoteIt will cost an estimated $345 million to build the necessary rail infrastructure, stations, park-and-ride facilities, maintenance depots and trains, according to a Feb. 18 memo from Aileen Bouclé, director of the Miami-Dade Transportation Planning Organization.
Once built, operations and maintenance are expected to cost $16 million a year.
Miami-Dade will ask for half the construction cost from the Federal Transit Administration's capital investment grant program.
QuoteThe plan, Ms. Bouclé wrote, also includes an expectation that the Florida Department of Transportation will contribute a quarter of the project cost. Miami-Dade intends to cover the remainder using funds generated by a local half-percent sales tax known as the half-penny, which county voters approved in 2002 to improve and expand transportation.
Half-penny funds will also cover the cost of the three-acre Aventura station, setting the county's estimated contribution toward the project's total construction at $162.25 million.
QuotePlans shown to investors included five stations between MiamiCentral and Aventura stations, including Wynwood, Design District, El Portal, North Miami and FIU Biscayne Bay Campus.
https://www.miamitodaynews.com/2021/03/23/after-345-million-buildout-brightline-to-run-new-intercity-rail/?fbclid=IwAR3BPmaRRvzc6CB7XYeZ087EioaNjPXmo_atEAQjKlersg2adyg84frIPZY
I'm not following that last claim.
a) [iirc] Skyway is proposed to cost $400million
b) Miami is spending ~$400M + perpetual operating costs
Miami-Dade is seeking funding assistance from FDOT and the FTA. Their local share of the $345 million project is $162.25 million. Jax taxpayers are being asked to fund 100% of the $379 million Skyway conversion project with the gas tax. Why not attempt to secure FDOT and FTA funding assistance?
I would bet that FDOT doesn't want to pay for clown cars. If it was light rail or a monorail or something, they would. But golf carts, no.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2021, 01:37:05 PM
Miami-Dade is seeking funding assistance from FDOT and the FTA. Their local share of the $345 million project is $162.25 million. Jax taxpayers are being asked to fund 100% of the $379 million Skyway conversion project with the gas tax. Why not attempt to secure FDOT and FTA funding assistance?
Sounds like you got your answer to that:
QuoteThe expectation is that the later phases of the U2C will proceed as a Public-Private Partnership (P3), which will require a dedicated funding source. The LOGT provides that dedicated funding source, unlike discretionary grants that must be applied for each year and are not guaranteed.
Quote from: Lostwave on April 16, 2021, 08:58:24 AM
I would bet that FDOT doesn't want to pay for clown cars. If it was light rail or a monorail or something, they would. But golf carts, no.
It's a cold day in hell when the FDOT is being more responsible about public transportation than you.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2021, 01:37:05 PM
Miami-Dade is seeking funding assistance from FDOT and the FTA. Their local share of the $345 million project is $162.25 million. Jax taxpayers are being asked to fund 100% of the $379 million Skyway conversion project with the gas tax. Why not attempt to secure FDOT and FTA funding assistance?
Ah, okay. So it's what the local govt would be looking at for cost, not total cost of project. Thank you.
^Yes, just looking at the local percentage and recommending that the LOGT only cover a local percentage for this U2C thing, and not the total cost as currently being proposed by JTA.
Morning, folks. Surprisingly big update.
JTA's board is voting this week on approving a contract for Transit Oriented Development planning around both the First Coast Flyer's Green Line stations... and commuter rail.
I got a hold of the bid documents for it, and within that, I found something incredibly interesting.
https://gis.jtafla.com/portal/apps/MapJournal/index.html?appid=9813461a3590462892bcd0cc13d26161
This is apparently a largely complete plan for commuter rail along the FEC corridor. It's very different from the last plan, back in 2009. Down from thirteen stations to just four, at the JRTC, Avenues Walk, Race Track Road, and King Street in St. Augustine. This time they've decided on a specific location for a vehicle maintenance facility, in St. Johns County along the big FEC branch instead of in "proximity to the downtown terminal."
It includes an operating plan:
(https://www.arcgis.com/sharing/rest/content/items/1e14682328644970bb3dcdcaf98d1e74/resources/CR%20Operating%20Plan-01__1579637290291__w1920.png)
They've downgraded from pursuing DMUs (despite the arrival of companies like Stadler and changes to FRA standards) to seven trainsets of a locomotive + two coaches akin to SunRail. The expected capital cost is $395 million, a substantial increase from the $172 million pricetag in 2009. Expected operating costs went from $14 million to $25 million.
Here are maps of the station plans (which I notice are from 2017), featuring longer platforms at the two termini:
(https://gis.jtafla.com/portal/sharing/rest/content/items/9813461a3590462892bcd0cc13d26161/resources/JTA%20Station%20Concepts_04-01-20_Page_1__1585865813519__w1920.jpg)
(https://gis.jtafla.com/portal/sharing/rest/content/items/9813461a3590462892bcd0cc13d26161/resources/JTA%20Station%20Concepts_04-01-20_Page_2__1585866435928__w1920.jpg)
(https://gis.jtafla.com/portal/sharing/rest/content/items/9813461a3590462892bcd0cc13d26161/resources/JTA%20Station%20Concepts_04-01-20_Page_3__1585866560720__w1920.jpg)
(https://gis.jtafla.com/portal/sharing/rest/content/items/9813461a3590462892bcd0cc13d26161/resources/JTA%20Station%20Concepts_04-01-20_Page_4__1585866221339__w1920.jpg)
Wow! Thanks for sharing
What's the projected ridership? I imagine those trainsets would be halfway empty at 30 minute headways. If they are down to 4 stations, definitely best to see how Brightline and/or Amtrak funding plays out over the next year or so. Potential sites in two (Jax and St. Augustine) locations would likely be included and locals could probably lobby for a third.
Btw, Gatlin has different plans for the Racetrack Road site. A shopping center and apartment complex. Construction starts this summer so the rail station is DOA:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/342579_standard.jpeg)
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/gatlin-buys-former-st-johns-dog-track-plans-dollar250-million-grand-cypress%3famp
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2021, 09:29:32 AM
What's the projected ridership? I imagine those trainsets would be halfway empty at 30 minute headways. If they are down to 4 stations, definitely best to see how Brightline and/or Amtrak funding plays out over the next year or so. Potential sites in two (Jax and St. Augustine) locations would likely be included and locals could probably lobby for a third.
It's not clear if they've gotten ridership projections yet, it looks like they might be asking the contract recipient for the TOD study to determine that as part of it. Essentially building the ridership around the stations.
The word I've gotten is that it is still planned to make this happen within the decade. My understanding is that they're trying to basically copy the Tri-Rail strategy, in which FDOT builds it as traffic mitigation for the $1 billion I-95 rebuild & widening that's expected to take over a decade. They say as much in the RFP:
QuoteThe proposed project would establish a 38.4-mile commuter rail corridor on Florida East Coast (FEC) Railway rail line from Downtown Jacksonville to St. Augustine in St. Johns County. The project is proposed as a maintenance of traffic (MOT)/mitigation strategy for several major projects expected to take place on I-95 in Southern Duval County and Northern St. Johns County.
To me, the design of the stations in Downtown and St. Augustine imply that they're where intercity trains would stop, since the inline stations are sized for just a single commuter train. And the newer report mentions that
QuoteVirgin Brightline owns the passenger rail rights to the corridor, representing considerable interest in bringing passenger rail to Northeast Florida.
Re: Gatlin, the rail plan is older, but looking at both your map and the Property Appraiser, if they can extend Big Cypress Drive through where that retention pond is and build the station a little further south, I don't see why it wouldn't fit within the remainder of the parcel that multifamily complex is planned for.
Yes-FDOT has been quiet lately on I95 both N and S of 295. They have moved to I10. I like this approach. Similar to I 77 south of Charlotte. Light rail versus an expensive Interstate upgrade.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 25, 2021, 06:24:00 PM
Re: Gatlin, the rail plan is older, but looking at both your map and the Property Appraiser, if they can extend Big Cypress Drive through where that retention pond is and build the station a little further south, I don't see why it wouldn't fit within the remainder of the parcel that multifamily complex is planned for.
Gatlin is supposed to break ground on the apartment complex this summer. JTA 's commuter rail dream is still 15 to 20 years out at best. The developer's skin the game is now. Unless JTA is prepared to buy the parcel from them now, it will be developed and flipped a few times before any type of passenger rail runs on the FEC.
Smart move decreasing the stops. It likely decreases the travel time by almost 10 minutes and decreases duplication with the Flyers.
^Also decreases the need for the project at all, depending on what happens with intercity rail along the corridor.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2021, 09:36:28 PM
^Also decreases the need for the project at all, depending on what happens with intercity rail along the corridor.
That's a pretty good point. The intercity service would likely not be more frequent than hourly service, so a filler commuter rail that leaves every hour in between the intercity service during rush hour could be useful. I don't think the need for half-hour frequency would be there at first though.
I'm imagining something like what Caltrans does with Amtrak where your commuter rail ticket works on the intercity trains as well as long as you board and alight at the right stations.
My fear regarding feasibility revolves around the following concerns:
1. There's no density either downtown or around any of these 4 stations to generate sufficient ridership to justify 30 minute peak and 60 minute non peak headways.
2. Sunrail has a lot more density, runs 30 minute peak and 60 minute non peak service and only generates around 5,000 riders a day (basically what the 2.5 mile Skyway was doing a few years ago). Metro Orlando is also significantly larger than Jax-St. Johns County-St. Augustine. Whatever traffic can be generated on the FEC will be much lower than what's been generated on Sunrail in Metro Orlando now.
3. $400 million for 4 stations, two or three of which could be included in a Brightline or Amtrak plan, reeks of duplicate services. One can easy make the argument that this would be just as wasteful local spending a similar amount on the U2C. It pains me to say that, since I'm a huge fan of rail, but I'm also trying to keep it real. For this particular corridor, we'd be better off piggybacking an intercity service (let them pay for the necessary track capacity needs) and throw in local money for an extra stop between DT Jax and St. Augustine.
4. Prior to the pandemic, Brightline operated 16 northbound and 16 southbound trains per day in South Florida. It will be difficult for a local commuter rail system to match anything similar to that if such a service materialized elsewhere. Since this commuter rail dream is so far out and includes so many variables that can make or break its feasibility, it would make sense locally to first address a corridor where duplicate services aren't possible and where a stronger, reliable transit link is also needed.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2021, 08:06:45 PM
Gatlin is supposed to break ground on the apartment complex this summer. JTA 's commuter rail dream is still 15 to 20 years out at best. The developer's skin the game is now. Unless JTA is prepared to buy the parcel from them now, it will be developed and flipped a few times before any type of passenger rail runs on the FEC.
I get that Gatlin is going to build, I'm saying that there's still room for the station even with the apartment going there.
As far as the overall concept, this all suggests to me that there's been a more calculated plan all along. This is why they asked for so little money in the gas tax. The idea is that JTA only needs to spend enough to get it shovel-ready and through most of the FRA-related hurdles. So the $800k they got from the feds to pay for this TOD study, plus the few million in the LOGT to plan out the JRTC terminal. I know from people I've talked to that they're working on getting the mixed-use project built on the St. Augustine end at W King.
So the plan is that once they've laid the groundwork over the next 3-5 years, FDOT takes over and integrates it as the traffic mitigation on the I-95 rebuild. It might still be a decade before you can board a train, but I don't think it'll be much longer than that. I'm shocked to learn that they actually really seem to be trying.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 25, 2021, 11:02:19 PM
I get that Gatlin is going to build, I'm saying that there's still room for the station even with the apartment going there.
I'm confused. Where? That's wetland to the south of the apartment complex property. It would be pretty difficult to gain approval to acquire environmentally sensitive land in the back of a residential area and fill it in for a train station parking lot.
QuoteAs far as the overall concept, this all suggests to me that there's been a more calculated plan all along. This is why they asked for so little money in the gas tax. The idea is that JTA only needs to spend enough to get it shovel-ready and through most of the FRA-related hurdles. So the $800k they got from the feds to pay for this TOD study, plus the few million in the LOGT to plan out the JRTC terminal. I know from people I've talked to that they're working on getting the mixed-use project built on the St. Augustine end at W King.
Unless they are willing to pay 100% of the construction costs and pay the railroad to be able to operate on those tracks, they'll have to follow the process for whatever type of federal or state funding assistance they'll need. Still pretty early in the game right now. Once they start and finish the PD&E study, where more detailed engineering and environmental analysis will be required, more information will be available concerning the project's feasibility.
QuoteSo the plan is that once they've laid the groundwork over the next 3-5 years, FDOT takes over and integrates it as the traffic mitigation on the I-95 rebuild. It might still be a decade before you can board a train, but I don't think it'll be much longer than that. I'm shocked to learn that they actually really seem to be trying.
I'd really, really, really be surprised if FDOT took over a commuter rail project on the FEC....or anywhere in Northeast Florida. Especially, FDOT District 2.
Much like Lofts in LaVilla, amd the SanMarco Publix, parking can be tucked under. The multifamily component isn't phase 1, correct?
From the article:
QuoteThe four-story "courtyard wrap-style" development will have a pool, clubhouse and gym. The building will be connected with indoor, climate-controlled hallways.
The multifamily developments will be built by Summit Contracting Group and designed by Group 4 Design. EnVision Design Engineering is the civil engineer.
The developer isn't waiting for something that may or may not happen 15 to 20 years down the road, that would likely be a big money loser for them. The timeliness are dramatically different but they already have financial skin in the game.
The issues discussed above with the Race Track station typify Jacksonville's lack of long range planning. By the time someone actually wants to do something, options are restricted or no longer available and/or it cost a fortune to retrieve a previously lost option.
Just a few years ago (see Better Jacksonville Plan), JTA/FDOT could have bought much more accessible properties of larger size (to allow for long term growth as the stations aren't that big compared to what I have seen elsewhere once this concept "matures") for much less dollars. No need to build right away if the need isn't there yet, but at least you have begun to build into a master plan and assure its feasibility for relatively small dollars compared to its full build out. If the land never gets used, they can always sell it, likely for a nice profit, so not much downside.
This is also why I think the City is making a big mistake to allow riverfront development Downtown. Once the land is developed, we will be forever precluded from meeting the needs of a larger city in the future. It makes no sense to not plan these big public works projects 10, 20 or even many more years in advance, especially when you are in a high growth area like we are. You can bet the interstate highways were mapped out in such a manner. As Lake points out, it takes up to 10 years just to engineer and fund what is finally agreed to.
^Unfortunately, JTA was provided $100 million in BJP money to do just that for a future rapid transit system. That opportunity was blown and now two decades later, we're still talking about concepts. Luckily they did acquire a few properties and build out a couple of sites that will work in the long term. Two that come to mind are the CR 220 park n ride lot adjacent to the CSX A line in Fleming Island and the transit station site at Avenues Walk, which is shown in the commuter rail concepts Marcus posted. On the other hand, anything drawn on someone else's property is nothing more than a conceptual dream.
JTA's board unanimously approved the TOD study contract.
Downtown Jacksonville didn't have the job base to support a heavy rail commuter line.
Take away 1/2 the works - which is what hybrid does - and it's gone in the opposite direction for such a thing
Jax would be smart to include a secondary route in this study: Downtown - Murray Hill - NAS - Orange Park
^This route likely makes more sense. Clay has traffic gridlock that the I-95 corridor will never have and there's no viable roadway based solution out there to resolve them north of Fleming Island. On the other hand, FEC appears to be much easier to work with than CSX. That's about the only reason why I can see the push to get something on the FEC up before the CSX A line.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2021, 01:25:41 PM
^This route likely makes more sense. Clay has traffic gridlock that the I-95 corridor will never have and there's no viable roadway based solution out there to resolve them north of Fleming Island. On the other hand, FEC appears to be much easier to work with than CSX. That's about the only reason why I can see the push to get something on the FEC up before the CSX A line.
Anecdotally, I have a friend who works for FEC after years at CSX. He says it's like night and day between the companies when it comes to these kinds of relationships.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2021, 12:09:20 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 25, 2021, 11:02:19 PM
I get that Gatlin is going to build, I'm saying that there's still room for the station even with the apartment going there.
I'm confused. Where? That's wetland to the south of the apartment complex property. It would be pretty difficult to gain approval to acquire environmentally sensitive land in the back of a residential area and fill it in for a train station parking lot.
I put together this concept, but I do now see that's a wetland. In which case, I'm not sure there's still an option for JTA along that section of the corridor. Unless they build it down at Nease High or up at maybe the Gate in Bayard, I think Racetrack might be beyond saving in terms of a station.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/833877455118794772/871815634688806932/Racetrack_Commuter_Concept.png?width=1074&height=583)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2021, 12:09:20 AM
I'd really, really, really be surprised if FDOT took over a commuter rail project on the FEC....or anywhere in Northeast Florida. Especially, FDOT District 2.
That seems to be the plan, whether it's truly doable is in Nat Ford's court, really.
Quote from: ralpho37 on August 02, 2021, 10:13:03 AM
Jax would be smart to include a secondary route in this study: Downtown - Murray Hill - NAS - Orange Park
The FEC has been the preferred corridor to launch commuter rail since 2013. The federal grant they're using for this study only includes these four specific stations on the FEC. My guess is that St. Augustine is considered a stronger terminal destination than Orange Park or Green Cove, plus the issues with the host railroads.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2021, 01:25:41 PM
^This route likely makes more sense. Clay has traffic gridlock that the I-95 corridor will never have and there's no viable roadway based solution out there to resolve them north of Fleming Island. On the other hand, FEC appears to be much easier to work with than CSX. That's about the only reason why I can see the push to get something on the FEC up before the CSX A line.
From JTA's standpoint, there's also the issue that if you're trying to fund this as highway mitigation, there's no highway project to piggyback off of in Clay County. It might be better in terms of being able to build your ridership, but that's not meaningful if you have no avenue to fund it in the first place. Although it's certainly be nice if whatever infrastructure bill package has enough funding that can be used to turn attention to the A-Line, whether that's through getting the FEC line done or being directed into the A-Line corridor.
I spoke to some friends who also have involvement with transit, and their big question was why it sounds like JTA is planning a SunRail-style service with bilevel coaches and a locomotive instead of something more akin to TexRail with Stadler DMUs. They're also going for low-level platforms, which seems strange if there are no existing stations mandating that standard. Unless they're getting used rolling stock for steep discounts, building the foundation for future, more rapid service seemed useful.
One thing I'm also worried about is the eventual cost. I know Lake's pointed out the utility in waiting for Brightline, but assuming that doesn't happen, JTA really needs to go all-in and have in-house rail development. They already know they want to spend the next twenty years building out a rail network, so bring the people in now instead of spending millions on consultants. We've already watched the price more than double in a decade, at this rate the actual built line will be a billion dollars, before you start looking at all the CSX lines to deal with.
Racetrack may not work as proposed but perhaps the area around the CR 210 overpass can be an alternative possibility?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 02, 2021, 03:10:18 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2021, 12:09:20 AM
I'd really, really, really be surprised if FDOT took over a commuter rail project on the FEC....or anywhere in Northeast Florida. Especially, FDOT District 2.
That seems to be the plan, whether it's truly doable is in Nat Ford's court, really.
FDOT calls their own shots. Totally opposite approach from the U2C, which they tried to fund totally with local dollars. With this one, they seem to want FDOT to take it over. I find it very hard to imagine the state wanting to fund this. The I-95 widenings start in 2023. If this were to be a mitigation project, it should have been funded and already underway by now. Considering they haven't done a PD&E yet (which takes a few years itself) chances are that the I-95 work will be largely complete before they ever break ground on this.
QuoteQuote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2021, 01:25:41 PM
^This route likely makes more sense. Clay has traffic gridlock that the I-95 corridor will never have and there's no viable roadway based solution out there to resolve them north of Fleming Island. On the other hand, FEC appears to be much easier to work with than CSX. That's about the only reason why I can see the push to get something on the FEC up before the CSX A line.
From JTA's standpoint, there's also the issue that if you're trying to fund this as highway mitigation, there's no highway project to piggyback off of in Clay County. It might be better in terms of being able to build your ridership, but that's not meaningful if you have no avenue to fund it in the first place. Although it's certainly be nice if whatever infrastructure bill package has enough funding that can be used to turn attention to the A-Line, whether that's through getting the FEC line done or being directed into the A-Line corridor.
I-95 is a FDOT project. They can (and likely will) widen the road without paying $400 million for a parallel rail project with low ridership. Not sure where FDOT would need JTA involved to widen the highway in St. Johns County. I also expect that Amtrak and Brightline will get money out of that infrastructure bill package before any rail construction money comes to JTA. So hopefully, either avenue will benefit NE Florida.
QuoteI spoke to some friends who also have involvement with transit, and their big question was why it sounds like JTA is planning a SunRail-style service with bilevel coaches and a locomotive instead of something more akin to TexRail with Stadler DMUs. They're also going for low-level platforms, which seems strange if there are no existing stations mandating that standard. Unless they're getting used rolling stock for steep discounts, building the foundation for future, more rapid service seemed useful.
The concept is so conceptual that I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point. Once they move into more advanced analysis, a lot of what's presented and assumed will change....and the cost will also go up.
I wonder if there is another option not being discussed here which is to bring the rail down the center or sides of the interstate. I have seen this elsewhere such as the Metro running down Interstate 66 in Northern Virginia outside DC. If we did long range planning for rail we would leave this possibility open on I-95 and maybe I-295. But around here, it is probably just a pipe dream.
(https://ggwash.org/images/posts/201601-272310.jpg)
Elsewhere:
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CB8N4A/a-choice-which-is-the-best-way-trains-and-people-have-to-make-choices-CB8N4A.jpg)
^Pipe dream. NE Florida's low population density doesn't support that option (DC Metro is heavy rail) and it would be a couple billion verses the $400 million project (I-95 basically parallels FEC, so existing rail would be preferred for commuter rail) being discussed now.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2021, 09:39:55 PM
Racetrack may not work as proposed but perhaps the area around the CR 210 overpass can be an alternative possibility?
Last I checked, that was currently planned for an industrial park (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/scannell-properties-proposes-st-johns-county-industrial-park).
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/332541_standard.jpeg?itok=ATbotrox)
I was thinking of a portion of the triangular track shaped by FEC, Old 210 and the 210 overpass. Right near the utilities facility. Anything planned there?
That industrial development may work as well if JTA believes in the project enough to buy a parcel from the developer, sooner rather then later.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2021, 12:36:05 PM
I was thinking of a portion of the triangular track shaped by FEC, Old 210 and the 210 overpass. Right near the utilities facility. Anything planned there?
Oh, that. On the master development plan that's all "light industrial/office/flex space" space (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/light-industrial-park-planned-in-twin-creeks), including a school bus depot (which the school district has already bought land for) and some workforce housing.
(https://images1.loopnet.com/i2/YJp9dcEBCjjCesY2WoS_IWGRmUy6pBvk2BGf-R3FDA4/116/County-Road-210-Beacon-Lake-Parkway-St-Johns-FL-Building-Photo-1-LargeHighDefinition.jpg)
So it's
possible they haven't secured tenants for the remaining flex space, and if JTA wanted to/could afford to, they could buy it for a more mixed-use development. It wouldn't be all that conveniently located compared to the rest of the development, or to Nocatee and Durbin where they might have hoped for the additional ridership from, but they
could.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 15, 2021, 08:27:10 PM
It wouldn't be all that conveniently located compared to the rest of the development, or to Nocatee and Durbin where they might have hoped for the additional ridership from, but they could.
Looking at the aerials, it would appear that 210 easily flows into Nocatee's 4 lane Valley Ridge Blvd. that cuts through the heart of Nocatee. It also appears that with what appears to be sizable FDOT retention ponds on the east side of US 1 at 210, an interchange between 210 and US 1 could be built a la the one between US 1 and Nocatee Parkway. If this was done, those on Race Track would have easy access to a station off 210 by traversing south on US 1. I am actually a bit surprised the interchange isn't already there and wonder if it is in a master FDOT plan somewhere. Anyone know?
If I remember correctly, FDOT has (had?) plans for a second phase at the new overpass connecting the two parts of 210. They would add ramps so US 1 traffic to/from the west wouldn't have to get caught at the RR crossing.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2021, 12:40:36 PM
That industrial development may work as well if JTA believes in the project enough to buy a parcel from the developer, sooner rather then later.
Received a response from JTA about this commuter rail plan for a future Jaxson article. At this point, this isn't a serious proposal. At this time the JTA is discussing the concept with stake holders to see if there is an interest to have formal discussions on the idea.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 19, 2021, 09:30:56 PM
Received a response from JTA about this commuter rail plan for a future Jaxson article. At this point, this isn't a serious proposal. At this time the JTA is discussing the concept with stake holders to see if there is an interest to have formal discussions on the idea.
So, JTA is having discussions to decide if they will have discussions? ::)
Here is the latest out today on JTA, commuter rail and TOD:
QuoteSomeday, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority would like to see commuter rail running between downtown Jacksonville and St. Augustine.
First, it wants to see if private-sector development would support such a project.
"We know we are looking at commuter rail," JTA CEO Nathaniel Ford Sr. told the Business Journal. "We see doing a study like this helps us with the development of the project and potential revenue to support the building of the station. When you look at the commuter rail operation, there's an opportunity for private investment to help support the operation and the construction of the operation."
To see what the potential is for such support, JTA is in the process of hiring WSP USA Inc. to study the feasibility of transit-oriented development along a potential 38-mile light rail corridor between downtown and St. Augustine.
The goal of the study, Ford said, is to identify development opportunities that would offset the cost of erecting commuter rail stations. Such opportunities, known as transit-oriented development, could include residential housing, retail and restaurants around the station.
While such development may not directly generate revenue for JTA, it could play a role in making the agency a more credible candidate when it applies for infrastructure funding from the Federal Transit Authority and other federal agencies.
JTA will pay WSP $1.21 million for the study, which would focus on four possible station locations: the northern terminus at the Prime Osbourne Convention Center; an 'Avenues Walk' location adjacent to Southside Boulevard and U.S. 1; a northern St. Johns County location near Race Track Road and U.S. 1; and the southern terminus on the outskirts of downtown St. Augustine at the intersection of U.S. 1 and King Street.
The authority owns the Avenues Walk Park-n-Ride facility along U.S. 1 as well as the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center but not property adjacent to the two other proposed stations. It does not plan to purchase property for the commuter rail project, which would run on track owned by Florida East Coast Railway.
Federal dollars are paying for 80% of the cost of the commuter rail study and a similar one looking at transit-oriented development around the First Coast Flyer Green Line, the bus rapid transit connector between the JTA headquarters and the Armsdale Park-n-Ride facility located near Interstate 295 in North Jacksonville.
Bus rapid transit, or BRT, is a system in which buses use dedicated lanes and premium terminals and have fewer stopes, providing some of the benefits of rail without the expense.
In its application for federal funding, JTA identified the Green Line as ripe for transit-oriented development because the route operates in multiple opportunity zones and "impacts a historically underserved area in terms of infrastructure improvements."
Although the 10-mile-long Green Line opened in 2014, this is the first time JTA has looked at what development could take place along the $33.2 million project.
"What we are trying to do is encourage development in and around BRT nodes, similar to what you would do around a rail station," Ford said.
JTA is negotiating with Renaissance Group to handle the $1.17 million Green Line study. The contracts with both WSP and Renaissance are slated to be signed this fall with the studies are scheduled to be completed in October 2022.
More information on transit-oriented development is also on the way. Ford said the agency should have a study on the potential for development around the Ultimate Urban Circulator project finalized by the end of September, providing context on transportation, residential housing and business opportunities along the proposed 10-mile network.
That study was funded by a $1 million grant from the FTA and conducted by WSP.
Ford said having studies in hand allows JTA to approach developers and encourage them to do projects along JTA's routes.
"We can't wait for the development community, in some cases, to understand the value of transportation infrastructure," Ford said. "The USDOT is providing transit authorities that funding that allows us to front-load some of that planning work and make it enticing. A lot of the planning work that a developer would have to do on their own dime, we're doing it."
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/09/20/jta-tod-study.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=ae&utm_content=ja&ana=e_ja_ae&j=25091811&senddate=2021-09-20
So... basically no progress. I thought they'd signed the contract for the study weeks ago.
Perhaps not the worst thing that they'll take a year to do it, the broader climate re: federal funding and Brightline's path to North Florida might be clearer by then.
I'm a little confused, though. If the development doesn't generate revenue for JTA, how would it offset the cost? Am I missing something there, or are they explaining it wrong?
It's been explained pretty extensively that the Race Track Road station as originally planned won't work, so I'm curious what alternative WSP will find.
It's also worth noting that if it ever happens, this would be the first commuter operation in the state to not operate on state-owned trackage. Curious how FEC and Brightline will respond to/accommodate that. Also unsure of how exactly they're going to manage operating from stations they don't own, in the case of Race Track Road and St. Augustine.
Re:U2C, I'm particularly curious to see just how supportive the market is going to be of investing around a transit system designed to be easily moved. Especially when they've only designed 30% of one portion of it, and are still picking the technologies that will make it work.
JTA just randomly claiming that they could open a rail service in three to five years, for some reason.
QuoteWhile it's probably going to take hundreds of millions from the federal government to make it a reality, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority says commuter rail service in Northeast Florida is more feasible than some might realize.
Speaking to the St. Augustine City Commission earlier this week, Jacksonville Transportation Authority Director of Economic Development Richard Clark said there could be service between Jacksonville and St. Augustine in three to five years.
The two most difficult parts, Clark said, were getting all the local governments aligned and getting the federal government to allocate the "north of $600 million" needed for the rail project in Northeast Florida.
"In a perfect world, you could have an operating train in three years," Clark told the Commission, while acknowledging that three to five years was a more realistic, although still optimistic, estimate.
While every budgeting process is dicey, what Clark said the project has going for it are: obvious need and a route that already has right of way.
"Construction is the easiest part," Clark said. "It's the quickest part. Laying track is a less than 12-month process."
As for the need, he said there are an estimated 40,000 commuters who drive into Duval County from St. Johns every day for work as well as15,000 going the opposite way.
St. Johns County is growing at a scorching pace with more than twice as many residents now as in 2000. There are numerous residential projects currently open and selling rapidly with more in the planning stages.
"We need to get way ahead of what traffic is coming our way," Clark said. "The most profound impact we can make is commuter rail."
JTA has hired WSP USA Inc. to study the feasibility of transit-oriented development along a potential 38-mile light rail corridor between downtown Jacksonville and St. Augustine.
St. Augustine City Manager John Regan said during the Commission meeting that Interstate 95 is "a slow-moving crisis" that isn't going to get better.
There are plans to expand the road by one more lane each way from World Golf Village to Jacksonville, but that will be the extent of potential expansion because of lack of right of way.
That's why city leaders are looking at adding a commuter rail station near the intersection of King Street and U.S. 1 in St. Augustine.
Later this summer, the commissioners will decide whether to create a new zoning designation called Mobility Oriented Development. And the owners of the property at that King Street-U.S. 1 intersection will apply to have it rezoned should the zoning designation be adopted. A rail station is part of the proposed redevelopment plan there.
But rail service plans routinely have been floated around and later discarded, mostly because of the high costs in establishing service.
Could this round be different?
St. Augustine Commissioner Nancy Sikes-Kline hopes so. She also serves on the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization, which is the independent regional transportation planning agency for Clay, Duval, Nassau and St. Johns counties.
She said the organization has gone through the financial feasibility study, and commuter rail service is slated to be developed in the period of 2036-2045. But she'd be glad to see it come together sooner.
"I'm grateful that JTA is making progress and that they're optimistic about the timeframe," she told the Business Journal. "But it did seem very optimistic to say three to five years when it's in the 2036-2045 timeframe. Not that it can't be moved up. Projects move around all the time.
"We'd love to have it tomorrow."
As Clark referred to, it's unclear exactly what kind of commitment and cooperation would be required of the various local governments. The St. Johns County government obviously would have to be heavily involved as would the government of St. Augustine.
Clark said a stop in the Race Track Road area — well outside the St. Augustine city limits — would be ideal for the St. Johns County segment of the project.
For the rail project to go forward, all Northeast Florida stakeholders must see it as beneficial.
"I think that would have to be supported among the (four-county) region," Sikes-Kline said. "Because you're competing against dollars on their projects as well, so everybody would have to agree that it was a priority."
For St. Johns County, Sikes-Kline said a commuter rail system would likely be used by tourists as well as residents going to and from work. That would help St. Augustine as it tries to encourage visitation without those people trying to park downtown, she said.
"We would encourage that because, ideally, they would be coming without cars," she said. "As you know, we have parking (issues). All desirable cities have parking problems. We have them, too."
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2022/06/29/commuter-rail-from-jax.html
Three to five years? Unless the $600 million has already been allocated then...that's a pipe dream that no one should tell the public. It only makes it worse, when five years arrive and nothing has been done.
In reality, construction alone would take a few years. I won't even get into the time needed to work out agreements with FEC, the various needed studies, design, permitting, etc.
How about we (central Florida) sell JTA our heavy rail trains and railcars so we can upgrade Sunrail to electric lightrail ;P It's been getting so hot down here recently they've been limiting Sunrail to ~35mph because they're worried about the tracks buckling.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 30, 2022, 10:44:50 AM
Three to five years? Unless the $600 million has already been allocated then...that's a pipe dream that no one should tell the public. It only makes it worse, when five years arrive and nothing has been done.
In reality, construction alone would take a few years. I won't even get into the time needed to work out agreements with FEC, the various needed studies, design, permitting, etc.
They should look at running rail down I-95 to avoid negotiation time with FEC :). It's been done elsewhere so why not? Maybe more expensive to build but they don't have to pay FEC for ROW forever and ever or deal with freight rail conflicts. Might do more to promote TOD and offer more station options too. If they reallocate the funds for the upcoming added lanes, they might even have a jump on some funding.
Who is "they"? JTA is the entity talking about bringing commuter rail. I-95 is FDOT. For FDOT to add rail in I-95, it would take decades to begin that conversation, do countless studies, and secure billions for its construction.....assuming it was remotely feasible. I struggle to believe that commuter rail, as previously proposed by JTA, would draw decent ridership. I struggle more to believe that FDOT will fund a complete reconstruction of an urban interstate highway with constrained ROW, to squeeze in a seldom used commuter rail line serving autocentric suburbia.
I attended the FDOT Rail & Transit planning session for this district a few months ago. One of the needs/strategies they mentioned was preserving highway ROW to accommodate rail in the future. Obviously I pointed out the I-95 widening that would concurrently eliminate any ROW that even could be used for rail. Their only real response was that they couldn't let a decade worth of planning go to waste. So that's where their priorities are in terms of that.
The FEC corridor pretty closely parallels I-95 anyway, so I don't think there's really much benefit to pursuing a highway ROW option in that case. Plus the FEC/US-1 corridor is arguably better suited for TOD, straighter for higher speeds, and has far fewer grade crossings compared to south Florida. At least according to JTA plenty of the ROW is wide enough for 4 tracks, which at some points (particularly stations) is necessary to support mixed services.
And remember, this isn't the FEC of 20-40 years ago who don't want to deal with passenger rail in any capacity. Miami-Dade and Broward are working on local services along this same corridor. In the end, it's really about the political will and constituency to have leaders that get it done. It's especially sad to see JTA make these claims when just last week in their new strategic plan they stated that they don't expect to get through PD&E and environmental review until fiscal year 2027. There's not even a local funding agreement yet, which SunRail had four years before they even started construction. I don't get how this article seems to completely ignore that the federal government won't just hand out half a billion dollars, there has to be a state and local skin in the game. Not to mention that JTA very publicly decided that the local funding they could have used from Jobs For Jax, they would instead spend on converting the Skyway into an elevated road. They clearly know what their priorities are, so I'm not sure why they would randomly make this claim.
https://youtu.be/iEUg9ymgrXk (https://youtu.be/iEUg9ymgrXk)
Interesting video on ridership vs. TOD and station location. Made me think of those stations in the middle of superhighways.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 01, 2022, 10:38:59 AM
https://youtu.be/iEUg9ymgrXk (https://youtu.be/iEUg9ymgrXk)
Interesting video on ridership vs. TOD and station location. Made me think of those stations in the middle of superhighways.
I just finished a study that ended up recommending stations in the middle of the highway. It was clearly understood that this would lead to fewer TOD opportunities, but the cost to build the line was substantially less when using existing highway ROW. From a big picture urban planning perspective it was disappointing, but the line can be built quicker this way, thereby providing options to avoid congestion sooner.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 01, 2022, 08:17:19 AM
Who is "they"? JTA is the entity talking about bringing commuter rail. I-95 is FDOT. For FDOT to add rail in I-95, it would take decades to begin that conversation, do countless studies, and secure billions for its construction.....assuming it was remotely feasible. I struggle to believe that commuter rail, as previously proposed by JTA, would draw decent ridership. I struggle more to believe that FDOT will fund a complete reconstruction of an urban interstate highway with constrained ROW, to squeeze in a seldom used commuter rail line serving autocentric suburbia.
I acknowledged the option tradeoffs to some degree so not suggesting a miracle solution, just making sure all options are considered before defaulting to one.
That said, it exemplifies our transit issues when the two agencies responsible for transportation in NE Florida don't work together well. Agency, government and political silos just lead to what we see everyday around here - poor planning, inconsistencies, inefficiencies, wasted taxpayer dollars and subpar results.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 01, 2022, 09:13:37 AM
I attended the FDOT Rail & Transit planning session for this district a few months ago. One of the needs/strategies they mentioned was preserving highway ROW to accommodate rail in the future. Obviously I pointed out the I-95 widening that would concurrently eliminate any ROW that even could be used for rail. Their only real response was that they couldn't let a decade worth of planning go to waste. So that's where their priorities are in terms of that.
This... ego that doesn't allow for backing up the bus when it might be the best thing to do. This is the same reason we have JTA pushing AV to salvage the wasteful Skyway. Admitting mistakes from the past is the first step to making a better future.
I have always envisioned a rail that runs parallel with Philips Highway starting in Downtown Jax then goes all the way to St. Johns County, then there would be a 2nd rail that runs parallel to JTB which starts where JTB and Phillips meet. The JTB connection would go all the way to beach connecting Downtown directly to the beach.
Gas is too expensive and I'm glad this idea is being discussed, fortunately there's already tracks that run parallel with Philips hwy!
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 01, 2022, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 01, 2022, 10:38:59 AM
https://youtu.be/iEUg9ymgrXk (https://youtu.be/iEUg9ymgrXk)
Interesting video on ridership vs. TOD and station location. Made me think of those stations in the middle of superhighways.
I just finished a study that ended up recommending stations in the middle of the highway. It was clearly understood that this would lead to fewer TOD opportunities, but the cost to build the line was substantially less when using existing highway ROW. From a big picture urban planning perspective it was disappointing, but the line can be built quicker this way, thereby providing options to avoid congestion sooner.
This is true if the only options are to use highway ROW vs a completely from-scratch greenfield route (like Brightline), or if it's for a light rail that can't share tracks with freight (like Orlando's proposed light rail 20 years ago), but those aren't the only options. In Jacksonville's case, utilizing the existing freight rail ROW is an even easier and more affordable option than highway ROW.
Quote from: JaGoaT on July 01, 2022, 02:04:04 PM
I have always envisioned a rail that runs parallel with Philips Highway starting in Downtown Jax then goes all the way to St. Johns County, then there would be a 2nd rail that runs parallel to JTB which starts where JTB and Phillips meet. The JTB connection would go all the way to beach connecting Downtown directly to the beach.
Gas is too expensive and I'm glad this idea is being discussed, fortunately there's already tracks that run parallel with Philips hwy!
This kind of used to exist. The Florida East Coast Railway once had a spur that went along Beach Boulevard from the existing mainline to the beach. I'd argue that it would make a lot more sense to take the two inner lanes from Beach Boulevard for bus-only lanes that could eventually add rails and also be light rail stations. Ottawa, Canada did this with the O-Train Confederation Line.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 01, 2022, 03:42:09 PM
In Jacksonville's case, utilizing the existing freight rail ROW is an even easier and more affordable option than highway ROW.
Is there an actual study comparing these two options to back up your conclusion?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 01, 2022, 04:20:45 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 01, 2022, 03:42:09 PM
In Jacksonville's case, utilizing the existing freight rail ROW is an even easier and more affordable option than highway ROW.
Is there an actual study comparing these two options to back up your conclusion?
the study that JTA has been doing assumes commuter rail would utilize the FEC tracks
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 01, 2022, 05:20:23 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 01, 2022, 04:20:45 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 01, 2022, 03:42:09 PM
In Jacksonville's case, utilizing the existing freight rail ROW is an even easier and more affordable option than highway ROW.
Is there an actual study comparing these two options to back up your conclusion?
the study that JTA has been doing assumes commuter rail would utilize the FEC tracks
So not a comparative study done jointly with FDOT regarding FEC vs. I-95 corridors? Thanks, but that is my point... lack of agency collaboration and looking at all options objectively. Left hand not coordinating with the right hand....
There's no need to do a study yo compare the feasibility of running "commuter rail service" on the FEC vs I-95. It would be a colossal waste of tax money and resources to invest in a commuter rail line, running in the middle of a highway, when an active railroad or rail ROW exists as a parallel facility. If we're going to build something from scratch, then we're likely looking at a different type of rail operation altogether (i.e. Brightline higher speed "intercity rail" running alongside the Beachline to connect to Orlando's airport. What JTA is proposing isn't that. Their service sounds like a less effective version of SunRail or Nashville's Music City Star.
Less effective because of station numbers and speed?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2022, 07:13:02 AM
There's no need to do a study yo compare the feasibility of running "commuter rail service" on the FEC vs I-95. It would be a colossal waste of tax money and resources to invest in a commuter rail line, running in the middle of a highway, when an active railroad or rail ROW exists as a parallel facility. If we're going to build something from scratch, then we're likely looking at a different type of rail operation altogether (i.e. Brightline higher speed "intercity rail" running alongside the Beachline to connect to Orlando's airport. What JTA is proposing isn't that. Their service sounds like a less effective version of SunRail or Nashville's Music City Star.
Something that I think would help Jax make commuter rail more feasible would be to work with surrounding cities / counties. For example the city of Orlando is currently working on a plan to expand the Sunrail not only north and south, but east and west. We're working with the cities of Apopka, Zellwood and Deland. Also working with Universal and MCO to add additional stops at the airport and i-drive. Orlando would be providing most of the funding for the city expansions and Universal/MCO would contribute to their respective stations.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2022, 07:13:02 AM
There's no need to do a study yo compare the feasibility of running "commuter rail service" on the FEC vs I-95. It would be a colossal waste of tax money and resources to invest in a commuter rail line, running in the middle of a highway, when an active railroad or rail ROW exists as a parallel facility. If we're going to build something from scratch, then we're likely looking at a different type of rail operation altogether (i.e. Brightline higher speed "intercity rail" running alongside the Beachline to connect to Orlando's airport. What JTA is proposing isn't that. Their service sounds like a less effective version of SunRail or Nashville's Music City Star.
First, I have been assuming a new track would be laid in the FEC ROW for this. Second, the economics may depend on what lease payments FEC demands for said ROW. Lastly, I understand that "common sense" suggest you are right but there may be "hidden" issues (such as availability or suitability of land for supporting stations or other infrastructure along with TOD) or intangibles that arise with the FEC ROW that might make one want to take a closer look at the I-95 option. Until things become more specific, gradually narrowing down the options, I am only suggesting to keep an open mind :).
To your point, JTA may be promoting a pipe dream and the ultimate project may end up being entirely different requiring a whole different thought process. I am looking at this, not strictly in the context of JTA's world, but without a preconceived idea of the final solution, i.e. what ultimately makes the best result for all purposes.
It basically boils down to what they are trying to accomplish. Intercity rail, commuter rail, heavy rail, LRT, streetcar, etc? All operate very differently. Since we're talking about a connection between DT Jax and St. Augustine, I'm going to assume commuter rail, as mentioned in the title (plus all options previously listed outside of intercity rail, really don't make sense for a +40 mile long route).
Commuter rail is a type of operation that is intended to connect commuters to a central city from adjacent suburbs. This type of services typically operates on existing freight lines or lines that were previously used for freight. Jacksonville's commuter rail problem is that not many people are commuting to the central business district from the suburbs and the suburbs are piss poor in terms of density themselves. I question the expense of establishing commuter rail on the FEC, because I'm not really sold we have the ridership potential or land use policies in place to support the system. Not because of the cost or time to work out an agreement with the railroad (which I believe is 100% doable).
Anything on I-95 is even more autocentric and low density, which is the exact opposite conditions needed for a successful commuter rail line. So your cost goes up to construct the infrastructure (you're building a new rail line and a new highway) and your ridership potential drops dramatically (i.e. the system is now operating in complete autocentric suburbia).
I still believe the most feasible option for any type of rail service between Jax and St. Augustine is either the extension of Brightline on the FEC or Amtrak running a corridor service between Jax and Miami down the FEC. Both are forms of intercity rail, as opposed to commuter rail. However, with the right placement of stations and timing of headways, the local community could use such a system for commuting within NE Florida.
Your last paragraph makes sense to me. Is anyone listening to you?
Again, it would appear JTA and FDOT should partner on this solution. Do you seeing them doing that or trying to go their separate ways? Of course, there is likely only room on FEC's ROW for one agency or the other so that may force them into a partnership eventually :).
It would be ironic if not one, but two, of our designated transportation agencies get trumped by the private sector. Would further prove their inability and incompetence to take charge and vision the future.
FDOT has been discussing Amtrak expansion throughout Florida. I don't know if JTA has been involved.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on July 02, 2022, 10:59:27 AM
Something that I think would help Jax make commuter rail more feasible would be to work with surrounding cities / counties. For example the city of Orlando is currently working on a plan to expand the Sunrail not only north and south, but east and west. We're working with the cities of Apopka, Zellwood and Deland. Also working with Universal and MCO to add additional stops at the airport and i-drive. Orlando would be providing most of the funding for the city expansions and Universal/MCO would contribute to their respective stations.
One "downside" of consolidation is that there aren't a whole lot of other governments to work with. With this particular corridor, it's really just Jacksonville and St. Augustine, with St. Johns County in-between. There also aren't
major destinations like Universal or the Orange County Convention Center along the line to help pay for it. One possibility I've thought about somewhat is that if this rail project were to create affordable standardized designs for its rail stations, they could perhaps seek funding from places like the Northeast Florida Regional Airport or Nocatee's CDD for infill stations. Won't be anything to the scale of the Orlando area deals but any money would clearly help here. And NFRA would have a lot to gain from having the only direct rail connection to both downtowns.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2022, 01:34:10 PM
It basically boils down to what they are trying to accomplish. Intercity rail, commuter rail, heavy rail, LRT, streetcar, etc? All operate very differently. Since we're talking about a connection between DT Jax and St. Augustine, I'm going to assume commuter rail, as mentioned in the title (plus all options previously listed outside of intercity rail, really don't make sense for a +40 mile long route).
What do you mean the Express Select bus that runs 3 round trips a weekday isn't sufficient? ;D
Quote
Commuter rail is a type of operation that is intended to connect commuters to a central city from adjacent suburbs. This type of services typically operates on existing freight lines or lines that were previously used for freight. Jacksonville's commuter rail problem is that not many people are commuting to the central business district from the suburbs and the suburbs are piss poor in terms of density themselves. I question the expense of establishing commuter rail on the FEC, because I'm not really sold we have the ridership potential or land use policies in place to support the system. Not because of the cost or time to work out an agreement with the railroad (which I believe is 100% doable).
Like I said, little about the FEC at this point demonstrates a disinterest in supporting rail provided the capacity increases are paid for. But I do agree, there's not a whole lot to say in terms of current TOD along even the existing FCF Blue Line that covers a third of the route. The development coming up at Avenues Walk has potential, but isn't really designed around the station anyway and features plentiful parking. St. Augustine of all places has shown some promise with the recent rezoning of the proposed terminus there, but similar or better really needs to be expanded all along the corridor. And more importantly, there need to be useful transit connections once you arrive at the station, since odds are your destination won't be the station itself.
Quote
Anything on I-95 is even more autocentric and low density, which is the exact opposite conditions needed for a successful commuter rail line. So your cost goes up to construct the infrastructure (you're building a new rail line and a new highway) and your ridership potential drops dramatically (i.e. the system is now operating in complete autocentric suburbia).
One of the problems with California High Speed Rail is that in addition to being a railway project, it's also a
massive highway project in order to create the ROW needed for the rails and then build all of the grade separation bridges. If there was no other choice, then you do what you have to, but Jax is not in that position for any likely regional rail corridor.
An interesting microcosm of this debate is actually the First Coast Flyer Red Line. People have long said that a transit line should be built along JTB so that they can access the beach, because people tend to get in their car and drive on JTB to get to the beaches. But when it actually came time to build a transit line, JTA chose Beach Boulevard, because of how much more sense it makes to run a transit line along that instead of JTB.
Quote
I still believe the most feasible option for any type of rail service between Jax and St. Augustine is either the extension of Brightline on the FEC or Amtrak running a corridor service between Jax and Miami down the FEC. Both are forms of intercity rail, as opposed to commuter rail. However, with the right placement of stations and timing of headways, the local community could use such a system for commuting within NE Florida.
It's the easiest option, I suppose. A city of our size is certainly physically capable of building regional rail, the issue seems to be whether it is politically capable of doing so. And as I think you've said before, it doesn't appear JTA is taking it all that seriously. I look forward to when the presentation they gave in St. Augustine is publicly available, though.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 02, 2022, 11:43:04 PM
Again, it would appear JTA and FDOT should partner on this solution. Do you seeing them doing that or trying to go their separate ways? Of course, there is likely only room on FEC's ROW for one agency or the other so that may force them into a partnership eventually :).
It would be ironic if not one, but two, of our designated transportation agencies get trumped by the private sector. Would further prove their inability and incompetence to take charge and vision the future.
The great thing about trains is that you can actually fit quite a bit on them. They're incredibly efficient infrastructure, compared to highways. Two or three tracks in South Florida (with three or four at stations) is sufficient for Brightline intercity trains, FEC freight trains, and eventually regional rail trains. The Brightline-only tracks in Central Florida won't even be fully double-tracked from the beginning, yet will still play host to 32 trains a day. And that's with everything running locomotive hauled on diesel (or LNG). With the political will to electrify and move passengers onto electric trains like in California, Europe, and Asia, you can move even more people or freight. There's no reason the FEC in North Florida couldn't host frequent regional trains, express intercity trains, and still plenty of freight trains.
To conclude this incredibly long post, I'm sorry to inform you that the private sector likely won't choose to act without public guidance. Brightline has generally followed public demand for where it chooses to serve. Remember that local governments have paid for most of the stations Brightline uses or will use, including Miami, Orlando, Aventura, and Boca Raton. They also were heavily lobbied by Cocoa to buy land for a station there. Looking especially at the recent changes in Orlando, they have to be asked to operate here, and it's unclear current leadership is willing to make that ask. Elections have consequences, even for the free market.
BTW, interesting article comparing regional rail in New York with London/Paris/Berlin. Obviously night and day to here though the challenges the MTA (NYC's version of JTA) is dealing with on their commuter rail lines is noteworthy:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-06-23/how-to-turn-new-york-s-commuter-trains-into-a-regional-rail-network
The NY metro area's problems largely revolve around political and technical differences between the state governments and separate commuter railroads. By starting from scratch, Jax largely avoids that problem. From a compatibility standpoint, JTA would ideally be thinking from the start about accommodating both potential Brightline and Amtrak services, as well as not overly impacting FEC freight. I can go all day about the potential benefits of really well thinking out how this system could work, but I'll save you the earful.
Quote"...problems largely revolve around political and technical differences between the state governments and separate commuter railroads."
For us, this translates to JTA/COJ working with FDOT. From my experience, this is where our problems begin here, too, as I don't sense that collaboration is taking place at all, or least to the extent it should be. This bureaucratic silo-ing will result in years of delays (from that point in time when it really is ripe to move forward) in implementing any of the options discussed here along with all-but-assuring us a solution that is less than ideal.
JTA only has to worry about one state government, not three. That's a very important distinction compared to what MTA is dealing with.
But yes, FDOT has largely abdicated responsibility for non-roadway transportation planning, and like Brightline, expects municipalities to do the heavy lifting for them to simply pay the balance of when it's time to put shovels in the ground. I believe FDOT should be much more proactive like they were before Scott, but nonetheless the ball is really in JTA's court here. And JTA is absolutely absolutely missing the moment with the billions in funding for rail and transit set to be spent over the next 5 years. But again, they've shown what their priorities are.
I'd say that FDOT is ahead of JTA when it comes to rail of any kind, which is sad to say. FDOT has played a major role in both Tri-Rail and SunRail commuter rail systems. For Brightline to get to Tampa, that will also be FDOT playing the role of a major partner since that rail line will have to be down the I-4 corridor. For Amtrak to do what it intends to do, FDOT will have to be a significant partner. My hope is that JTA jumps on board with some of the momentum already happening around the state.
Right, FDOT is relatively decent when it comes to actually putting shovels in the ground and getting the train rolling, but generally they're not going to help you get to that point. Either the municipalities or Amtrak or Brightline have to be the ones to do the planning and lobbying work that actually gets you to the point where FDOT will really start helping. JTA and especially city leadership should be fighting like hell to get Brightline working on the remainder of the FEC and Amtrak their proposed Florida service, and pushing for a regional rail system connecting those two networks.
If we were on the ball, we'd be moving Amtrak back downtown, then go from there: potential additional Amtrak routes, Brightline, etc. Then we'd know what other rail needs we may have. This project seems like thinking in a silo and spending research money on an project that's unlikely to happen.
LOL, JTA planning "commuter AV's" to St. Augustine?
Lol a horse would get you there faster and a carriage would carry more people.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 08, 2022, 05:15:00 PM
LOL, JTA planning "commuter AV's" to St. Augustine?
You joke, but they
do want to run AVs as a circulator system in St. Augustine, which the city has included in its mobility plan. However, as recently as a year ago in an engineering report (https://smartnorthflorida.com/uploads/SMART-St-Augustine-Systems-Engineering-Report-_Final-SSt.pdf) the technology was declared "not mature enough for an early implementation phase."
Yet apparently JTA feels it
is mature enough for revenue service.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 08, 2022, 04:11:08 PM
If we were on the ball, we'd be moving Amtrak back downtown, then go from there: potential additional Amtrak routes, Brightline, etc. Then we'd know what other rail needs we may have. This project seems like thinking in a silo and spending research money on an project that's unlikely to happen.
JTA did include this in their Strategic Plan (https://www.jtafla.com/media/qurjxgoz/2022_0620_move2027_strategic_plan_v1-2.pdf):
QuoteIntegrated Passenger Rail Service
Bring together all rail service in Jacksonville to the Downtown rail terminal. Work with passenger railroads (e.g., Amtrak) to co-locate railroad service.
It's "scheduled for implementation" in FY26 and only shows a budget of $100k (not including the $3.4m that is officially just for JRTC terminal PD&E but they keep claiming is actually for the entire commuter rail corridor), and I haven't seen any evidence of them engaging Amtrak other than Amtrak updating their intercity proposal to include the station (which isn't necessarily JTA's doing). So yeah, issue of money not going where mouths are.
Last week, JTA gave another presentation to the St. Augustine City Commission about the proposed rail project, I've trimmed down to the relevant segment and uploaded it here:
https://youtu.be/zDQroqNWZV8
Thanks for sharing. Didn't realize 95 expansion was starting this year. Avenue Mall station needs more consideration than surface lot. Sure Racetrack will be the same. Not sure why the clown cars are part of this as if they are everywhere.
From the video, "we done decades of research on this." I feel like this perfectly describes Jacksonville projects. 2-3 decades of research and studies, followed by inaction or project that was funded on decades old data and ultimately gets budgetized into a failure.
Feature article now in the Times Union covering the future of commuter rail, mainly between Jacksonville and St. Augustine with stops at the current convention center/Union Station/JTA Intermodal Hub, the Avenues, Race Track Road and King Street at US 1. Comments from a wide range of transportation officials with JTA saying it possibly being be built out between 2030 and 2040.
QuoteHow about a commute by train between downtown Jacksonville and historic St. Augustine? It's possible
....As the Florida Department of Transportation embarks on a project to add a new northbound and southbound lane to Interstate 95 in Duval and St. Johns counties, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority says a dedicated commuter rail line between them is needed as well...
....Now a $1 million Federal Transit Administration grant is funding a commuter train development study. Additionally, $3.9 million is earmarked from the city's Local Option Gas Tax for JTA's Preliminary Engineering and National Environmental Policy Act study on a rail terminal next to its LaVilla headquarters. A preliminary engineering and environmental review is planned in 2025 or 2026....
....The JTA calls the commuter rail "an ideal mobility enhancement," the average rail commute time comparable to driving: an estimated 48 minutes from downtown Jacksonville to St. Augustine, trains running from 5 a.m. to just before 10 p.m. daily....
....Florida East Coast already has 100 feet of right of way on its freight line between Jacksonville and St. Augustine, mostly a single track with switches and some double track segments, JTA said.
"It is FEC's right-of-way and we have to work with them to be able to use it. But they have enough right-of-way for four lanes of traffic," Clark said. "... Tri-Rail and SunRail have encouraged us to do as much dedicated track as we possibly can to limit the cross-traffic of any other rail service.".....
.....Clark said the estimated 37 miles of track and commuter rail stops could come in 2030 to 2040. The estimated cost would come when the full planning, development and environmental study formulates a potential design and some "real numbers."
Final funding would have to be sought via a partnership between the JTA, local, state and federal stakeholders and "railroad partners," he said.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/business/transportation/2022/07/26/first-coast-commuter-rail-would-connect-jacksonville-st-augustine-florida/10095395002/
2040? I thought it was mentioned that it could happen within three to five years? We've been talking about this since at least 2005 or so. That's 25 to 35 years to go from concept to reality....
Let's hope Amtrak or Brightline can do something on the FEC years before 2030 to 2040.
The comment of final funding coming from "railroad partners" is interesting. The railroad isn't going to fund anything unless they are making money off of it. I wonder if they are investigating structuring this as some sort of PPP with FEC or Brightline.
With a timeline of 2030 to 2040, this would basically piggyback whatever Amtrak and Brightline would likely do prior to this. If either of those entities do something along the FEC, infrastructure enhancements would have to be included as a part of their project. For example, I'm pretty sure the Amtrak corridor service plan could likely include some funding assistance for at least two (DT Jax and St. Augustine) of the four identified commuter rail stations. Other than that, I don't expect a rail entity like FEC to fund anything. If anything, they'd want compensation to allow passenger rail to operate on their property.
Finally have the updated presentation link available. Includes some... imaginative renderings of what TOD at JRTC and King St. could look like. Also strangely drops the previously proposed maintenance facility site.
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43572ee892264d9aa1df6dc1c72e6a24
Didn't expect to have an update for this, but I guess there is one.
Saw this tweet (https://twitter.com/lawrenceluksha/status/1684345914649968640?s=20) from Larry Luksha on Twitter, and followed it to this (https://publicinput.com/y730760), an invite to community workshops on August 8th and 9th in Jacksonville and St. Augustine. Which then led me to this website (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/).
It appears the TOD study originally funded back in 2020 (https://www.transit.dot.gov/grants/grant-programs/fiscal-year-2020-transit-oriented-development-tod-planning-projects) is finally underway. Interestingly, they've started with fifteen "potential station areas," with 7 of them being "Identified Stations for TOD" and the rest being "Stations for Further Analysis. However, the FAQ (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/FCR_TOD_Study_FAQs.pdf) does note that "The grant requires this study to identify four stations for Phase I of the project." So presumably this would involve developing plans for the "identified stations" but then finalizing with four of those as "Phase I stations".
I spent some time few weeks ago doing a lot of analysis on the prospect of phasing a commuter rail program in a way that would support progressive implementation of the infrastructure over time (let me know if you want to see what I found), and looked at a lot of different options as far as funding sources and technologies involved, and frankly I found myself honestly coming around to thelakelander's perspective, that given the institutional, technological, and financial challenges involved, it would probably be most prudent to plan a system and take steps to provide for its future existence (getting it "shovel-ready," so to speak), but not go through the effort to build and operate it in the near future. With the funds we have available right now or soon, there is so, so much that could be accomplished within the city just by operating the infrastructure we already have to the extent it's supposed to be. Taking early steps like making sure that any of the suburban bus depots JTA constructs as part of decentralizing maintenance operations from Myrtle Avenue can also support rail depots, or actually securing the land for future rail stations, or running useful suburban bus operations (the Express Select is not that, yet), or actually hurrying up and getting the Prime Osborn redeveloped into an intercity (and future regional) train station, and even leveraging this TOD study to actually make the policy changes in zoning and land use and transportation investment required to support rail would all be more useful than trying to build a commuter rail line right this moment. And heck, maybe by doing the work to eventually make it possible, "eventually" will almost magically become "right now."
In related news, the news broke today (https://www.axios.com/local/raleigh/2023/07/26/raleigh-durham-commuter-rail-faces-bleak-funding-outlook) that Raleigh-Durham's proposed commuter rail system will not be supported for federal funding by the FTA.
On a concerning note, details (https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article277605488.html) of an FTA meeting for that project suggest that the Biden Administration is actively disinterested in funding new commuter rail projects, and instead is prioritizing funding bus rapid transit. This quote in particular strikes me as an alarming sign:
QuoteHutchinson told the gathering that the FTA will pay for half of qualifying BRT lines. He said federal officials like the lower cost of the bus-based systems and that they can more easily adapt to changes in commuting patterns, as a region grows and develops.
DC can't figure out what they want to do with train transit. Sad really. China laid more high speed rail in 10 years than the entire world while we debated the funding for a few select tracks.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 26, 2023, 11:39:59 PM
Didn't expect to have an update for this, but I guess there is one.
Saw this tweet (https://twitter.com/lawrenceluksha/status/1684345914649968640?s=20) from Larry Luksha on Twitter, and followed it to this (https://publicinput.com/y730760), an invite to community workshops on August 8th and 9th in Jacksonville and St. Augustine. Which then led me to this website (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/).
It appears the TOD study originally funded back in 2020 (https://www.transit.dot.gov/grants/grant-programs/fiscal-year-2020-transit-oriented-development-tod-planning-projects) is finally underway. Interestingly, they've started with fifteen "potential station areas," with 7 of them being "Identified Stations for TOD" and the rest being "Stations for Further Analysis. However, the FAQ (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/FCR_TOD_Study_FAQs.pdf) does note that "The grant requires this study to identify four stations for Phase I of the project." So presumably this would involve developing plans for the "identified stations" but then finalizing with four of those as "Phase I stations".
I spent some time few weeks ago doing a lot of analysis on the prospect of phasing a commuter rail program in a way that would support progressive implementation of the infrastructure over time (let me know if you want to see what I found), and looked at a lot of different options as far as funding sources and technologies involved, and frankly I found myself honestly coming around to thelakelander's perspective, that given the institutional, technological, and financial challenges involved, it would probably be most prudent to plan a system and take steps to provide for its future existence (getting it "shovel-ready," so to speak), but not go through the effort to build and operate it in the near future. With the funds we have available right now or soon, there is so, so much that could be accomplished within the city just by operating the infrastructure we already have to the extent it's supposed to be. Taking early steps like making sure that any of the suburban bus depots JTA constructs as part of decentralizing maintenance operations from Myrtle Avenue can also support rail depots, or actually securing the land for future rail stations, or running useful suburban bus operations (the Express Select is not that, yet), or actually hurrying up and getting the Prime Osborn redeveloped into an intercity (and future regional) train station, and even leveraging this TOD study to actually make the policy changes in zoning and land use and transportation investment required to support rail would all be more useful than trying to build a commuter rail line right this moment. And heck, maybe by doing the work to eventually make it possible, "eventually" will almost magically become "right now."
Wow, seeing so many stops in St Augustine is a pleasant surprise. Add a few more local stops and you could easily get a nice urban rail system. More stops should be added in Jacksonville as well... Emerson, University, Sunbeam/Shad (or both), and Greenland. That probably turns this into regional/suburban rail instead of commuter rail, but it makes more sense imo.
As for focusing on increased bus service vs
commuter regional rail... I still think train service would be more beneficial. It brings investment that a bus never will. The zoning changes still have to happen, but that's the easy part.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 27, 2023, 12:38:43 PM
In related news, the news broke today (https://www.axios.com/local/raleigh/2023/07/26/raleigh-durham-commuter-rail-faces-bleak-funding-outlook) that Raleigh-Durham's proposed commuter rail system will not be supported for federal funding by the FTA.
On a concerning note, details (https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article277605488.html) of an FTA meeting for that project suggest that the Biden Administration is actively disinterested in funding new commuter rail projects, and instead is prioritizing funding bus rapid transit. This quote in particular strikes me as an alarming sign:
QuoteHutchinson told the gathering that the FTA will pay for half of qualifying BRT lines. He said federal officials like the lower cost of the bus-based systems and that they can more easily adapt to changes in commuting patterns, as a region grows and develops.
To be fair, pure commuter rail systems really are a waste of money in 2023. All day regional rail just makes a lot more sense... JTA should be aware of this before applying for any federal funding. Anything less than 30 minute frequencies off-peak is not worth the hassle.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on July 27, 2023, 01:03:44 PM
DC can't figure out what they want to do with train transit. Sad really. China laid more high speed rail in 10 years than the entire world while we debated the funding for a few select tracks.
They spread the money too thin. I understand that may be the "equitable" thing to do, but you have to start somewhere first. The California HSR project should've been fully funded years ago... the costs are only going to keep rising. Just get it done.
^Anything with stops at Emerson, University, JTB, Baymeadows, etc. is better off being LRT. We're not getting 30 minutes headways on the FEC or anything else than that, with the amount of freight movement on that line. Jax and St. Augustine couldn't support it anyway. Still makes sense for the state to simply partner up with Amtrak or Brightline for a corridor service linking Florida's major metropolitan areas.
Marcus,
Thanks for sharing this!
Quote from: thelakelander on July 28, 2023, 01:45:03 PM
^Anything with stops at Emerson, University, JTB, Baymeadows, etc. is better off being LRT. We're not getting 30 minutes headways on the FEC or anything else than that, with the amount of freight movement on that line. Jax and St. Augustine couldn't support it anyway. Still makes sense for the state to simply partner up with Amtrak or Brightline for a corridor service linking Florida's major metropolitan areas.
On this note, it'd be a great first step for Mayor Deegan on transportation to push for a meeting with the passenger railroads, start getting a sense of what a North Florida intercity program might look like. In both cases the tracks already exist so it's really a question of the improvements and stations needed. And North Florida at least should be a lot less complicated than Tampa. Perhaps that might entail applying for one of the federal planning grants.
Intercity would have to connect with another major metropolitan area in the state. So we'd be talking about something like a Jax to Miami on the FEC or a Jax to Orlando on the CSX A line. Then its just a matter of getting stations along each of those corridors (i.e. like Fleming Island, Green Cove, Downtown, St. Augustine, etc.) and also using what we already have (i.e Palatka, our Amshack, etc.).
Yes, of course. Frankly I still wonder why the curve in Cocoa for Miami-Orlando service doesn't appear designed to accommodate a northern extension, unless I just can't see how the connection works.
There's really so much room for city leadership here (and of course on so many other issues), I really hope the Deegan admin can see that.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 28, 2023, 06:50:55 PM
Yes, of course. Frankly I still wonder why the curve in Cocoa for Miami-Orlando service doesn't appear designed to accommodate a northern extension, unless I just can't see how the connection works.
There's really so much room for city leadership here (and of course on so many other issues), I really hope the Deegan admin can see that.
Honestly, I don't think a Jacksonville extension was ever intended based on the current design. I'm not an engineer so I won't pretend to be one. However, If I was going to head north using the existing ROW out of Orlando, I would look at two options:
- Flyover at 407 Challenger-Memorial Pkwy heading NE until the I-95 area, then head east to just to connect with FEC south of Space Coast Regional Airport
- Roughly 5-8 miles before the "Cocoa Curve", head NE crossing Grissom Pkwy and cutting between Warehouse (or industrial space on the west) and Space X assembly site on the east.
JTA's latest on commuter rail. At least 10 years out. Why so long after so many studies and years talking about it so far?
QuoteUpdates on First Coast Commuter Rail project coming Aug. 8 & 9
Project will make travel from Jacksonville to St. Augustine easier
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. – The plan to make it easier to get from downtown Jacksonville to St. Augustine is in the works.
Last year, JTA unveiled a proposal to build a commuter rail service, known as the First Coast commuter rail.
Public presentations will be held next month to let people weigh in on this proposed project. This will give people the chance to take a look at the project for themselves and see what it has to offer.
There will be a presentation on the proposed Duval County stations from, 5-7 p.m. on Tuesday, Aug. 8 in the Jacksonville Transportation Authority board room at 100 LaVilla Center Dr.
The presentation on the proposed St. Johns County stations will be from 4:30-6:30 p.m. Wednesday, Aug. 9 at 75 King St., St. Augustine, Alcazar Room, City Hall.
JTA said the goal is to cut travel time down and account for the fact that Northeast Florida's population continues to boom.
People would drive into one of the four rail stations, hop on the commuter rail, and get to their destination.
Census data showed roughly 54,000 workers travel back and forth between Duval and St. Johns counties every day. JTA said having the commuter rail could ease a lot of the congestion on I-95 and U.S. 1.
There would be 4 stops:
The Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center in Downtown Jacksonville
Avenues Walk
Racetrack Road in St. Johns County
King Street in Downtown St. Augustine
If this goes through, JTA expects the travel time from King Street to the JRTC would be 48 minutes. That's the length of the full ride.
The tentative hours of operation would be from 5 a.m. to 9:43 p.m.
This entire project would take about 10 years to complete. To learn more, click here.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2023/07/28/updates-on-first-coast-commuter-rail-project-coming-aug-8-9/
Simple answer is that even after all this time they're not actually that far along. There's a lot more work that needs to be done to get a regional rail system to the point of federal funding, and even then you run a lot of risk in doing so.
JTA has essentially "slow-rolled" a lot of these studies that require tangible state and federal support, where they need tens of millions of dollars to actually conduct the relevant detailed planning studies needed to seek federal funding, not the single digit millions they've considered or spent before. I suppose at least some of this is not their fault, that's a lot of money to risk on studies, but at the same time they've had a number of opportunities to make regional rail a real priority and have instead chosen other projects to elevate, first BRT and now the U2C.
In light of the recent failure of Raleigh-Durham's effort and some discussions I'm having with folks in Baltimore about restoring the Red Line light rail Larry Hogan killed, there's a palpable concern about the need to bring competitive projects if you're starting from scratch (or close to it) and not in one of the biggest metro areas or demonstrating a serious commitment to building ridership. Like almost anything else in Jacksonville, there's a real need for city leadership in developing mobility options throughout the region and the city has largely been silent or close to it on that.
That would also mean being prepared with local funding that could then be matched by FDOT and the Federal Transit Administration. We really just haven't had those conversations yet, and we absolutely have to if we want to make any of these ideas happen, especially before the infrastructure bill expires.
What are the overall estimated capital costs and daily ridership numbers? How do those compare to running Amtrak (or Brightline) down the FEC as a Pacific Surfliner style service? I have a strong feeling the JTA project would cost more, generate lower ridership and be more difficult to launch. JTA wouldn't be in control of the purse strings, so I can understand why it wouldn't be in favor of other options that can deliver similar services.
^ They haven't produced an actual breakdown of either since 2009. They've given a topline number, $400 million in 2020 and $600 million last year (where that cost increase came from, who knows). Meanwhile the work (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43572ee892264d9aa1df6dc1c72e6a24) they've shown focuses instead on how many people do or could soon live and work around the line, not how many of those people would be likely to actually ride the train. Maybe someone could ask at this event, but I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was like on the website (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/FCR_TOD_Study_FAQs.pdf), that another study is required to determine that and this is just covering TOD.
The issue is that you need at least $100 million in this day and age (probably more) to actually really plan out a modern rail project. Doing all the required analysis, selecting and buying sites, track engineering, calculating costs, all of that. Raleigh-Durham spent $157 million (https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/orange-county/article262106007.html) designing a light rail project that Duke University decided to push to kill before their more recent commuter rail attempt. Brightline's spending $32 million (https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/florida-receives-15-875-million-engineering-grant-for-brightline-route/) just for preliminary engineering for the Orlando-Tampa expansion, which is already based on a plan that had previous design work. It takes a lot of work just to reach the point of asking for money to build something.
As far as intercity, the cost now in theory entails either Brightline continuing to expand double track from Cocoa to Jacksonville, which also might mean building a new connector to the now-existing Orlando line, or Amtrak making improvements to the A-Line between DeLand to allow for new corridor trains. Of course, one of those options has a clearer path in this state than the other. My random guess is that Brightline would cost more because the FEC seems to demand more double tracking and the expansion would require adding Positive Train Control, which Amtrak's line already has. But it would mean hourly (or close to it) service instead of a handful of times per day like Amtrak would. Either is going to require some amount of public support, and that will also mean political support.
Probably the fastest way to encourage one of these railroads would be to do what they asked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_3EJCiIvlQ) for governments to do a few months ago: figure out how to get the environmental review and permitting work done and then essentially just hand them the project to build.
I mean, it's not like they don't have the money. How much is JTA spending on the U2C project that will never happen?
It's all about priorities.
$500M+ when it's all said & done. They say $400M now... No shot this thing isn't $100M over budget if they actually do it.
Jax and JTA have always had access to money to pull off a starter rail system of any type. It simply hasn't been a priority and it isn't now. This AV thing is costing us a lot more than most types of proven rail systems.
The first session for Duval County's stations was tonight (https://www.jtafcrtod.com) at the JRTC from 5 to 7. Any attendees?
Tomorrow's St. Johns County session is at St. Augustine City Hall from 4:30 to 6:30.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 08, 2023, 06:30:18 PM
The first session for Duval County's stations was tonight (https://www.jtafcrtod.com) at the JRTC from 5 to 7. Any attendees?
Tomorrow's St. Johns County session is at St. Augustine City Hall from 4:30 to 6:30.
Yes, I attended.
Where to start...if you're one of these little transit nerds like so many of us are on here, then you're dying inside at some of the questions from the general public. Very easy to pull the wool over people's eyes.
There was a small crowd of *young* people that gathered afterwards with one of the general team. VERY knowledgeable and just schooling the crap out of JTA. I was blown away - I kind of figured maybe one or two were members on here. I handed out my business cards and asked them to reach out to grab beers, coffee or lunch. Made me optimistic.
But as all things in Jax, the best, smartest people with the most common sense ideas and having the awareness of what's successful beyond our borders are the absolute furthest from the levers of power and decision making.
Aside from the fact that I'd personally rather see JTA pursue an intown system of at-grade but largely separated ROW for light rail or street cars (I basically would love to see Charlotte's LYNX just replicated here) *before* pursuing systems that will not generate ridership numbers and may cost JTA political capital for building something actually useful later, my easiest problems to pick were on the real estate side since that is what I do for a living.
Take two of the Duval transit stops: Baymeadows/Old Kings and Avenues Walk area.
Baymeadows
I know a family member of the company that owns the shopping center that they want to replace with high-density mixed use around the transit stop. I'm pretty sure they have not had discussions with this group, which is thankfully local.
Avenues Walk
This guy went on and on about this stop, showing examples in other cities (notably Halcyon in Atlanta). I call Avenues Walk a little crater because you have to climb a mountain and then descend into a little crater surrounded by highways, rail and wetlands. The speaker envisioned "a couple hundred thousand square feet of office" and then in the same sentence called it a future employment center.
But he described a Halcyon like development without telling us how he would do the following:
1. Get rid of the Walmart (or at least work with Walmart to partner with a bigger time developer to incorporate into a higher density development)
2. Talk to the recent buyer of the other retail center and vacant land (which has some of the vacant land up for sale right now)
3. Get rid of the brand new suburban gated garden apartments and suburban townhomes just built to incorporate all of that land into a high density, walkable TOD style development
On that note, I actually heard about this through NEFBA. I am a member and part of a subcommittee there that is actually looking at the TOD bill. I will say, the members from the development community within NEFBA are different from forum contributors on this website, or members of ULI. There is a woeful ignorance towards transit, urban infill for the most part, or TOD type stuff. But we are looking at the TOD bill in this subcommittee, and the head of the subcommittee works for a local real estate company that has real estate right basically there at Avenues Walk and I know for a fact that JTA has not had any discussions with his company about their big plans for the area there. I find that hilarious.
Someone else asked if JTA were going to work with whatever other agencies to ensure sidewalks are put in around Southside Blvd there because otherwise how do you use the station and walk around over there.
No discussion about St Johns County or St Augustine, just focused on Duval (3 stops including Prime Osborn).
I asked if they had considered light rail at all, and the speaker basically said "I don't know, maybe there are other potentially better systems out there but we only focused on the commuter rail." For solid deeper questions, as there were a few, the speaker basically said "I don't know."
And with all of the BS "studies" and presentations we are overloaded with in this town, they asked us to put different color stickers for "good, ok, bad" opinions on the presentation boards in the back.
Quote from: simms3 on August 09, 2023, 07:44:44 AM
Where to start...if you're one of these little transit nerds like so many of us are on here, then you're dying inside at some of the questions from the general public. Very easy to pull the wool over people's eyes.
People in general know little about transit and know even less about the architecture of what makes transit work. Makes it hard when you have to hope that your transit agency knows what it's doing.
Quote from: simms3 on August 09, 2023, 07:44:44 AM
There was a small crowd of *young* people that gathered afterwards with one of the general team. VERY knowledgeable and just schooling the crap out of JTA. I was blown away - I kind of figured maybe one or two were members on here. I handed out my business cards and asked them to reach out to grab beers, coffee or lunch. Made me optimistic.
But as all things in Jax, the best, smartest people with the most common sense ideas and having the awareness of what's successful beyond our borders are the absolute furthest from the levers of power and decision making.
That's quite exciting! I remember being pretty much alone at things like JTA's U2C events or FDOT's highway expansion events, so to hear that someone else is in that fight is encouraging.
Quote from: simms3 on August 09, 2023, 07:44:44 AM
Aside from the fact that I'd personally rather see JTA pursue an intown system of at-grade but largely separated ROW for light rail or street cars (I basically would love to see Charlotte's LYNX just replicated here) *before* pursuing systems that will not generate ridership numbers and may cost JTA political capital for building something actually useful later, my easiest problems to pick were on the real estate side since that is what I do for a living.
It definitely could make sense to build a web of light rail (or even automated light metro) along the major arterials like Atlantic/Arlington, Beach, Southside, perhaps Normandy or 103rd. My take from a transit infrastructure standpoint has been for a while that any rail transit system in Jacksonville needs to have a focus on speed to be competitive with driving. Especially if people have to make bus or ReadiRide connections in order to reach their final destination, reducing the time spent on those trunk lines is incredibly important. Obviously there has been a stance for a while that commuter rail is practical because of its ability to utilize existing rail corridors, which there aren't many of that would be particularly suitable for light rail, aside from the S-Line. Of course, if we simply used the billions of dollars FDOT is spending on highway expansion for transit instead we could basically do whatever.
Quote from: simms3 on August 09, 2023, 07:44:44 AM
Take two of the Duval transit stops: Baymeadows/Old Kings and Avenues Walk area.
Baymeadows
I know a family member of the company that owns the shopping center that they want to replace with high-density mixed use around the transit stop. I'm pretty sure they have not had discussions with this group, which is thankfully local.
It's silly, but it seems like this study isn't really meant to actually make the land deals for TOD. It's meant to set the policies that would then be used to govern that TOD. But of course, their slow-rolling of actually making this happen is exactly why Race Track Road appears to no longer be an option. JTA historically has always been slow on real estate (see: BJP right of way funding).
Quote from: simms3 on August 09, 2023, 07:44:44 AM
Avenues Walk
This guy went on and on about this stop, showing examples in other cities (notably Halcyon in Atlanta). I call Avenues Walk a little crater because you have to climb a mountain and then descend into a little crater surrounded by highways, rail and wetlands. The speaker envisioned "a couple hundred thousand square feet of office" and then in the same sentence called it a future employment center.
But he described a Halcyon like development without telling us how he would do the following:
1. Get rid of the Walmart (or at least work with Walmart to partner with a bigger time developer to incorporate into a higher density development)
2. Talk to the recent buyer of the other retail center and vacant land (which has some of the vacant land up for sale right now)
3. Get rid of the brand new suburban gated garden apartments and suburban townhomes just built to incorporate all of that land into a high density, walkable TOD style development
That sounds odd. It sounds like they're talking about this site as it was over a decade ago instead of what it is now. I also don't understand where they think the demand for several hundred thousand square feet of office space is coming from. Downtown is having a hard time building more now, why would so much more of that space go to the suburbs?
Quote from: simms3 on August 09, 2023, 07:44:44 AM
On that note, I actually heard about this through NEFBA. I am a member and part of a subcommittee there that is actually looking at the TOD bill. I will say, the members from the development community within NEFBA are different from forum contributors on this website, or members of ULI. There is a woeful ignorance towards transit, urban infill for the most part, or TOD type stuff. But we are looking at the TOD bill in this subcommittee, and the head of the subcommittee works for a local real estate company that has real estate right basically there at Avenues Walk and I know for a fact that JTA has not had any discussions with his company about their big plans for the area there. I find that hilarious.
Someone else asked if JTA were going to work with whatever other agencies to ensure sidewalks are put in around Southside Blvd there because otherwise how do you use the station and walk around over there.
JTA is the one saying that this rail system is going to take a decade to build (because they're slow-rolling it in favor of projects they're more interested in). I'm sure you're well aware that the market isn't going to wait that long if it doesn't have to. But yeah, good luck getting FDOT to agree to slow down Phillips Hwy and Southside Blvd in order to support walkability in that area.
Quote from: simms3 on August 09, 2023, 07:44:44 AM
No discussion about St Johns County or St Augustine, just focused on Duval (3 stops including Prime Osborn).
I asked if they had considered light rail at all, and the speaker basically said "I don't know, maybe there are other potentially better systems out there but we only focused on the commuter rail." For solid deeper questions, as there were a few, the speaker basically said "I don't know."
And with all of the BS "studies" and presentations we are overloaded with in this town, they asked us to put different color stickers for "good, ok, bad" opinions on the presentation boards in the back.
To be fair, yesterday's session was specifically dedicated to Duval County's stations, not St. Johns County's. That's today. This TOD study is specifically about station sites for commuter rail along the FEC, the federal funding for it stipulates that. It's annoying that it doesn't sound like they have the technical side for anything about the actual rail system, but that's because they haven't seriously engaged in that because they're spending millions on "Testing and Learning" instead.
My "hot take" here is that there's really nothing keeping the city from building its own transit lines that it owns and simply allowing JTA to operate them. Philadelphia used to do it and might even do so again with their proposed Roosevelt Boulevard Subway. Use CIP and TPO funds to do the studies, use the LOGT or other taxes to fund the local share of construction, and simply sign an operating agreement with JTA when all is said and done. No nonsense schemes, no clout-gathering for authority executives, just a completed transit line they put drivers on.
As far as light rail, probably the most helpful thing in the short term would be to push for light rail to be included on the Long Range Transportation Plan update next year. I think a lot of these corridors are already currently included as BRT, but they'll need to be updated anyway to account for current and proposed transportation patterns. A focus on land use/zoning should help make the case for heavier transit. If the TPO can avoid doing the nonsense they did in 2019 and making half the LRTP about autonomous vehicles then there's a lot of room to make a real transportation plan that doesn't spend 94% of its funds on road expansion.
Regarding the thought of including Light Rail, and not U2C, in the upcoming Long Range Transportation Plan, the TPO just held the first meeting of the citizens Steering Committee to guide the LRTP. This group will meet about a half-dozen times over the year-long process, and review information provided by the consultant (Atkins). It sure would be great if some of the smart people from here would get involved.
Contact Marci Larson: mlarson@northfloridatpo.com [pet peeve, government agency using "com" instead of "gov" but I digress]
I assume the focus on commuter rail over any other mode is because the tracks are already there but I definitely think it'd be worth looking into light rail and automated light metro.
Commuter rail (which really should be all day regional rail) with a few stops to St Augustine makes sense, but a more local service terminating at Avenues has a market as well imo. I wish JTA was prioritizing this over the U2C...
I don't know where to start....
1. I've long said that Jax would be better off working with Amtrak or Brightline for an intercity passenger rail connection, instead of JTA doing commuter rail. JTA has no experience, our zoning is a mess, people here don't even know what true TOD is, and commuter rail will generate low ridership. Go intercity and coordinate such a project to have a few additional NE Florida stops included. Locally, it will cost taxpayers less while still offering similar commuting and economic development benefits. The big difference will likely be not having a need for an additional tax revenue stream locally (that JTA will likely want to control).
2. The U2C really clouds the local discussion around investing in a starter streetcar or LRT line. Both of which can be accomplished with the same local money we're spending on the U2C. They also serve different roles, yet we're positioning autonomous vehicles to serve the role of streetcar/LRT, etc. Grave mistake that we should have learned from our Skyway experience. From this perspective, there's no reason to blame FDOT or some outside agency. We have to resources to get this started locally. We just don't have the political will power.
3. Regarding any type of fixed transit investment in NE Florida, we've finally entered a period of time where political allyship may be feasible between local and federal priorities. This is a general window where Jax should strike while the planets are aligned. If we force this U2C thing over having these discussions, we're likely living a generational mistake in the making.
4. Oh yeah......what's the point of studying TOD again? What has changed since 2008 about TOD that makes it any different than what its been since the late 19th century?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 02:39:23 PM
1. I've long said that Jax would be better off working with Amtrak or Brightline for an intercity passenger rail connection, instead of JTA doing commuter rail. JTA has no experience, our zoning is a mess, people here don't even know what true TOD is, and commuter rail will generate low ridership. Go intercity and coordinate such a project to have a few additional NE Florida stops included. Locally, it will cost taxpayers less while still offering similar commuting and economic development benefits. The big difference will likely be not having a need for an additional tax revenue stream locally (that JTA will likely want to control).
As I've said before, I don't disagree at this point. This remains really a leadership challenge in terms of being able to set our own transportation policy. If Donna Deegan and Ron Salem came out tomorrow and said that they wanted to bring Brightline to Jacksonville "before this decade is out," that would be a little ambitious but absolutely doable. It would mean investing in getting the JRTC station built and likely helping Brightline get the required corridor development work done, and potentially seeking a federal grant of some kind for the likely $1 billion+ that reconstructing the FEC from Cocoa to Jacksonville would cost, but the money is absolutely there, as you've said it's the decision-making that isn't.
Likewise with Amtrak and the A-Line corridor we can decide tomorrow to get the local governments into a room and propose an interlocal agreement to split the cost of a few trainsets for a corridor service. It would be hard, and FDOT would almost certainly push back, but the decision-making isn't even there to try.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 02:39:23 PM
2. The U2C really clouds the local discussion around investing in a starter streetcar or LRT line. Both of which can be accomplished with the same local money we're spending on the U2C. They also serve different roles, yet we're positioning autonomous vehicles to serve the role of streetcar/LRT, etc. Grave mistake that we should have learned from our Skyway experience. From this perspective, there's no reason to blame FDOT or some outside agency. We have to resources to get this started locally. We just don't have the political will power.
It's been said before here that one of the many central problems with the U2C as a project is that it wasn't undertaken as a transportation project in order to solve a mobility need, but instead as an innovation project in order to heap credibility and praise upon its backers for their providence. This op-ed (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/opinion/2021/05/15/guest-column-jobs-jax-investment-city/5081601001/) from two years ago was a demonstration of what they think will come of this. We have a problem already created by a previous generation of JTA leadership chasing a non-optimal technology for personal glory, and this generation has chosen to repeat that mistake and call us delusional for pointing that out.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 02:39:23 PM
3. Regarding any type of fixed transit investment in NE Florida, we've finally entered a period of time where political allyship may be feasible between local and federal priorities. This is a general window where Jax should strike while the planets are aligned. If we force this U2C thing over having these discussions, we're likely living a generational mistake in the making.
Pretty much. Similarly to downtown development, we're currently watching the opportunity pass by because we can't get our crap together enough to seize it.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 02:39:23 PM
4. Oh yeah......what's the point of studying TOD again? What has changed since 2008 about TOD that makes it any different than what its been since the late 19th century?
I would understand if this was work that directly contributed to uniquely enabling TOD where it wasn't possible before, either by marketing to developers or guiding the policy changes to support TOD, but these studies never actually seem to do that. And it's unclear why we need to spend like $2 million in order to explain to our own city council why they shouldn't mandate car-only development around a train station they would be funding. St. Augustine didn't need a $2 million study to create their Mobility Oriented Development zoning (although they did late in the process add some unnecessary limitations for aesthetic purposes). And it was a developer realizing they had a property with high potential who pushed for that zoning to exist in the first place. I can't say I understand.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2023, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 02:39:23 PM
4. Oh yeah......what's the point of studying TOD again? What has changed since 2008 about TOD that makes it any different than what its been since the late 19th century?
I would understand if this was work that directly contributed to uniquely enabling TOD where it wasn't possible before, either by marketing to developers or guiding the policy changes to support TOD, but these studies never actually seem to do that. And it's unclear why we need to spend like $2 million in order to explain to our own city council why they shouldn't mandate car-only development around a train station they would be funding. St. Augustine didn't need a $2 million study to create their Mobility Oriented Development zoning (although they did late in the process add some unnecessary limitations for aesthetic purposes). And it was a developer realizing they had a property with high potential who pushed for that zoning to exist in the first place. I can't say I understand.
What I like about the story is that the property owner (Broudy) is really someone who's latched on to the idea and helped spearhead the whole thing, including the new zoning category (which is created *just* for his property, at this point). What I like even more is that he's a multi-generational native who takes pride in his hometown and wants to contribute to its greatness. I'll make a plug for my own roots and family history in the area, but we had the ice plant ;D which is now quite a destination, and I hope someday I'll get to try to use that clout to push through one of my own plans, God willing.
More on Broudy's development partner:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/apr/12/nineoaks-development-is-making-its-mark-as-a-multiservice-developer/
I think they have a best-in-class team that includes the best attorney to hire to do anything in St. Augustine, etc.
I can't find where St. Augustine paid $2M for a study to create the new zoning category and push this deal, however, I wouldn't be surprised if they did something. I know they latched on to the JTA study as language from that study was woven into basically all PR surrounding this.
What these "studies" do is arm the "defense", which in this case is Broudy, his team, and St. Augustine commissioners who are for this proposal, "against" the rest of the constituents, who are crabby patties beyond all crabbiness. It's like the mandatory traffic studies that areas, particularly St. Johns County, require to the utmost degree to even have a chance at approvals.
Don't hate the messenger here, and I'm beating a dead horse with this, but Marcus a lot of your gripes are really against an overall NIMBY attitude across the region and especially in St. Augustine. It's partially ignorance and apathy that requires this sort of stupid education about what seems to be commonsense and is common practice in most other large cities/metros, but a lot of it really is an animosity towards anything that could be construed as growth, densification, "metro" / regional connectivity as in any "metro area". Especially in St. Augustine where people go to retire, they don't want "big city" Jacksonville growth overtaking the "quaint feel" of the area, and they hate the tourists now, who butter the whole area's bread.
Just read Steve Cottrill's columns in the St. Augustine Record. It's a disaster, but that's the prevailing attitude. I think he's even had one on this very plan.
There will be only one spot, at this spot, for the MOD, nevertheless, the citizens of St. Augustine are fighting this thing pretty hard because his proposal will rise to 70', which is outrageous to the locals (90% of whom are transplants in the last 3 decades with average age of 65+).
There is a deal somewhere else in the city under way that wanted 4 stories and a variance. My understanding is that even the best of attorneys focused on St. Augustine would not take it on because of the insane political challenges to exceed 3 stories. So they are making do with 3 stories.
35' is the strictly enforced height limit not only in St. Augustine Beach (where they no longer want hotels because they claim the Embassy Suites was a bait and switch that ruined the whole area ::) ::) it's like the only nice hotel there), but it is enforced in St. Augustine proper as well, which is why nearly all of the new hotels are 3 stories and despite insane demand to cater to tourism there, everything is still pretty low-scale.
It's so insane. The people that I know working on the deal are from out of town and due to my familiarity with them, they have imparted some thoughts on our area to me that in some ways align with the dead horse I always beat on these boards.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2023, 06:57:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 02:39:23 PM
1. I've long said that Jax would be better off working with Amtrak or Brightline for an intercity passenger rail connection, instead of JTA doing commuter rail. JTA has no experience, our zoning is a mess, people here don't even know what true TOD is, and commuter rail will generate low ridership. Go intercity and coordinate such a project to have a few additional NE Florida stops included. Locally, it will cost taxpayers less while still offering similar commuting and economic development benefits. The big difference will likely be not having a need for an additional tax revenue stream locally (that JTA will likely want to control).
As I've said before, I don't disagree at this point. This remains really a leadership challenge in terms of being able to set our own transportation policy. If Donna Deegan and Ron Salem came out tomorrow and said that they wanted to bring Brightline to Jacksonville "before this decade is out," that would be a little ambitious but absolutely doable. It would mean investing in getting the JRTC station built and likely helping Brightline get the required corridor development work done, and potentially seeking a federal grant of some kind for the likely $1 billion+ that reconstructing the FEC from Cocoa to Jacksonville would cost, but the money is absolutely there, as you've said it's the decision-making that isn't.
Likewise with Amtrak and the A-Line corridor we can decide tomorrow to get the local governments into a room and propose an interlocal agreement to split the cost of a few trainsets for a corridor service. It would be hard, and FDOT would almost certainly push back, but the decision-making isn't even there to try.
My recommendation would be to start small. We'd need to take the initiative to invest in ourselves for the future we want to see. What we'd do at the local level is assist in (or fund 100%) moving the Amtrak station back downtown (or have the station opened downtown as a second station). That immediately introduces intercity rail back to downtown (adjacent to the JRTC) and we don't have to come up with billions to do that. Many cities across the state have already done this. So the precedence is there.
The connectivity with the JRTC also immediately helps boost all other local transit services in the region......even as far as Palatka. By the same token, we should go ahead and replace the raggedy Skyway rolling stock and open that Brooklyn station, JTA claimed it would do years ago. Try piling all our "TOD" opportunities around our existing fixed transit stations for a change, instead of continuing to waste money studying to the oblivion. These are the little things that make local mass transit more efficient and effective, that help build local support for larger projects.
When the time comes for intercity rail expansion, locally our role would be to become aggressive supporters (like Miami, Orlando and Tampa were in the early 2000s with high speed rail.....while we were playing with legos in St. Augustine) and lobby for additional regional station sites and service times that can also align with our regional commuting characteristics, regardless of whether it's Amtrak or Brightline. In the end, we'd be served by intercity rail that also doubles as a regional commuter rail option (which is essentially corridor services that Amtrak currently offers in various regions across the country.
Brightline seems to be the only viable option in my opinion. They own the rights to make it happen already. Let them get their full operation up and running next year, and then they can have a serious conversation with FEC. Start with three major stops and then revisit with future stop options like they did with Boca and Aventura. Crossing the bridge is a major hurdle, that thing isn't getting any younger. Brightline is going to want housing attached (like WPB and Miami) to its stations in St Aug and I could see a San Marco station. If BL does go forward, this won't be TriRail, it'll be a fancier more premium train, if you haven't rode it yet, it's an awesome experience. FEC has a lot of land in San Marco and St Augustine. The newer CE O of FEC wants more track and high speeds, if BL wants to pay for it, I'm sure Mexico will be more than willing. Perfect scenario is when Orlando is finished BL buys FEC back from Grupo.
^BL is a major reason if I'm COJ, I wouldn't give up Prime Osborn land for a UF campus or anything else. That large piece of rail frontage is a TOD real estate nugget. We don't need a JTA study to tell us that or lay it out.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 08:48:18 PM
My recommendation would be to start small. We'd need to take the initiative to invest in ourselves for the future we want to see. What we'd do at the local level is assist in (or fund 100%) moving the Amtrak station back downtown (or have the station opened downtown as a second station). That immediately introduces intercity rail back to downtown (adjacent to the JRTC) and we don't have to come up with billions to do that. Many cities across the state have already done this. So the precedence is there.
The connectivity with the JRTC also immediately helps boost all other local transit services in the region......even as far as Palatka. By the same token, we should go ahead and replace the raggedy Skyway rolling stock and open that Brooklyn station, JTA claimed it would do years ago. Try piling all our "TOD" opportunities around our existing fixed transit stations for a change, instead of continuing to waste money studying to the oblivion. These are the little things that make local mass transit more efficient and effective, that help build local support for larger projects.
When the time comes for intercity rail expansion, locally our role would be to become aggressive supporters (like Miami, Orlando and Tampa were in the early 2000s with high speed rail.....while we were playing with legos in St. Augustine) and lobby for additional regional station sites and service times that can also align with our regional commuting characteristics, regardless of whether it's Amtrak or Brightline. In the end, we'd be served by intercity rail that also doubles as a regional commuter rail option (which is essentially corridor services that Amtrak currently offers in various regions across the country.
You can start small while having big goals, especially when the big goals require that small start anyway. No matter what the JRTC rail station needs to be built, which would need to be built to accommodate Brightline in the future anyway, and the TOD focus is a policy change more than a construction change. You can make your goal Brightline Jacksonville while knowing that there are a lot of building blocks to make that happen. That does assume one is actually serious about making those changes though.
Also from a PR standpoint it sounds better to say we plan to have Brightline in 7 years compared to JTA's proposal taking maybe 10(?) years. If the city can spend over $130 million on a hotel that wasn't officially a Four Seasons until a few weeks ago, it can invest in supporting a rail project that likely only has one potential intercity user.
Unfortunately it seems anything with JTA is going to require some form of showdown, whether that's unilaterally reallocating the LOGT funding to the city's transportation priorities or demanding resignations and a board that will formally move on. I don't know what the appetite is for that. JTA's board members themselves (Ari Jolly if I recall) have proclaimed that they're deep in sunk cost fallacy. I worry somewhat recalling that Ron Salem was one of those who explicitly said we had to simply trust that Nat Ford would figure things out.
If we are willing to make that choice, then it should be pretty straightforward from there to re-assess the obviously sandbagged and pretty much speculative Technology Options (https://www.jtafla.com/media/w0rezike/technical-memorandum-iii-skyway-technology-options-evaluation-final-april-2017.pdf) memo, pick a technology that
works and apply the funds we already have available to it, which can of course include new vehicles and connecting to Brooklyn. It'll be a shame that this is being done six years after it should have been, but alas.
Quote from: Pottsburg on August 09, 2023, 09:26:11 PM
Brightline seems to be the only viable option in my opinion. They own the rights to make it happen already. Let them get their full operation up and running next year, and then they can have a serious conversation with FEC. Start with three major stops and then revisit with future stop options like they did with Boca and Aventura. Crossing the bridge is a major hurdle, that thing isn't getting any younger. Brightline is going to want housing attached (like WPB and Miami) to its stations in St Aug and I could see a San Marco station. If BL does go forward, this won't be TriRail, it'll be a fancier more premium train, if you haven't rode it yet, it's an awesome experience. FEC has a lot of land in San Marco and St Augustine. The newer CE O of FEC wants more track and high speeds, if BL wants to pay for it, I'm sure Mexico will be more than willing. Perfect scenario is when Orlando is finished BL buys FEC back from Grupo.
At the end of the day Brightline is arguably more straightforward than Amtrak, because they already have all the agreements and plenty of practice in terms of what needs to be done to make a corridor service happen in FL. I would argue that there's not much of anything foreclosing us from approaching them and figuring out what is needed to get the ball rolling. We already know some of the pieces right now, and odds are their answers aren't going to be things that are unheard of (e.g. RAISE and CRISI support, environmental review work, LRTP inclusion, perhaps Corridor ID, etc).
Within a few weeks service to Orlando should be open, and by the end of this year they have a good chance of breaking ground in Vegas, followed by the completion of their environmental updates for Tampa, which FDOT expects to lead to a Federal State Partnership application next year, which means that by around 2027, they should be close to wrapping construction out west and well underway to Tampa, which is exactly when we should be poised to make our own FSP request and potentially start construction on the FEC either late that year or the following. That might not mean that we exactly complete things by 2030, but it'd have been close enough to have made the enterprise worthwhile. Although if, say, we've already started work on the JRTC station by 2025/6, and all St. Augustine needs is a platform, that becomes even simpler.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 09, 2023, 09:55:39 PM
^BL is a major reason if I'm COJ, I wouldn't give up Prime Osborn land for a UF campus or anything else. That large piece of rail frontage is a TOD real estate nugget. We don't need a JTA study to tell us that or lay it out.
It would be an all-time unforced error to let go of that site for anything but an incentive. Ironically I think we actually get two TOD studies on that site at this point (U2C and this), plus the LaVilla master plan.
Anyway, it looks like they uploaded both the Duval (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230808_JTA_First_Coast_Commuter_Rail_Workshop_2_Duval_County.pdf) and St. Johns (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230809_JTA_FCCR_Public_Workshop_2_St_Johns_County.pdf) presentations to the study website. Did anyone here attend the St. Johns session?
My first impression is definitely that this gives very little thought to the already-extant plants for most of these areas. Other than basically completely giving up on stuff like the Broudy site in St. Augustine (because it's basically out of the authority's hands, of course), it feels almost haphazard.
As part of the effort to bring BrightLine here, besides working with the North Florida TPO on board, we also need to get the Daytona Beach ("River to Sea") TPO on board. The R2S TPO actually touches the NFTPO at the St. Johns/Flagler County Line. A coalition of MPO/TPOs in SE Florida worked to bring BrightLine to fruition.
^Good point. A few years ago, they were on board and excited at the prospect of being tied to Jax and Miami by BrightLine, Amtrak and anything else. I haven't followed them recently though.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2023, 11:28:32 PM
Anyway, it looks like they uploaded both the Duval (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230808_JTA_First_Coast_Commuter_Rail_Workshop_2_Duval_County.pdf) and St. Johns (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230809_JTA_FCCR_Public_Workshop_2_St_Johns_County.pdf) presentations to the study website. Did anyone here attend the St. Johns session?
Thanks for sharing! This basically answers why most commuter rail related technical and/or timeline questions can't be answered. Outside of having updated graphics, I'm not sure what this really accomplishes. Since there's no real plan or timeline for implementation, no one should expect an adjacent property owner to commit to redeveloping anything illustrated in that particular fashion.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 10, 2023, 07:19:17 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2023, 11:28:32 PM
Anyway, it looks like they uploaded both the Duval (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230808_JTA_First_Coast_Commuter_Rail_Workshop_2_Duval_County.pdf) and St. Johns (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230809_JTA_FCCR_Public_Workshop_2_St_Johns_County.pdf) presentations to the study website. Did anyone here attend the St. Johns session?
Thanks for sharing! This basically answers why most commuter rail related technical and/or timeline questions can't be answered. Outside of having updated graphics, I'm not sure what this really accomplishes. Since there's no real plan or timeline for implementation, no one should expect an adjacent property owner to commit to redeveloping anything illustrated in that particular fashion.
In looking at that master plan, which is what they presented at the JRTC - THAT's what cost $2M? I saw another master plan for an area of town, and I think that one cost either $400K or $600K. It was actually a little more robust than this one in that it included artist's renderings done for the plan, not done previously by the client and thrown in for inclusion.
We are all in the wrong line of work...
Not to diminish other people's work - there were some graphics in there that I could tell whoever was tasked with doing them, it was a bit tedious. But this study is basically:
A recent aerial picture of LaVilla and Avenues Walk apartments - $500 or so
A picture gathering trip to Atlanta (or maybe hiring Atl photographer there) - $1,000
Google Earth - free
Renderings/pictures found on the web - free, maybe some required artistic use purchases, so call it $2,500
Graphic designer + high end graphic design tools - $100K? I don't know, more? Less?
Travel + time for interviews of various parties - $10K?
Salary of the people involved in writing the study - $100K x 2?
And this assumes this is the only study/product the graphic designer and two people do in a year, but in reality they are probably doing many for many clients, and they probably borrow plenty of language from other studies if it fits the bill for this one too.
I just don't understand how these things balloon to $2M, and who is pocketing that?? We all need to figure this out for our own good...
Not sure if this has been shared on the board here, though based on some of the ideas already flagged, it looks like some members may already be aware of it:
https://ventureoutjax.com/ (https://ventureoutjax.com/)
QuoteThe City of Jacksonville Transportation Planning Division, which focuses on transportation policy, long-range planning, and project development, is undertaking an outreach effort to identify transportation infrastructure and safety issues throughout Jacksonville. These can range from fixing sidewalks and addressing flooding issues, to potentially identifying new roadways.
This website will allow you to provide feedback to the Transportation Planning Division that will help to identify problems and issues and guide resources to address these issues that residents of the City of Jacksonville are facing in their day-to-day travel. Please visit the interactive map and leave us your thoughts.
There's an ability to map ideas and, once they are vetted and approved (which in my experience has taken several days), other contributors can like and comment on those ideas. The topic of this thread and others could be a great addition to the feedback they are collecting.
Agree on River to Sea. Think COJ/NFTPO can launch the effort and loop them in as things move forward. But someone has to fire that starting gun.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 10, 2023, 07:19:17 AM
Thanks for sharing! This basically answers why most commuter rail related technical and/or timeline questions can't be answered. Outside of having updated graphics, I'm not sure what this really accomplishes. Since there's no real plan or timeline for implementation, no one should expect an adjacent property owner to commit to redeveloping anything illustrated in that particular fashion.
As I said, this is piecemeal wheel-spinning. This isn't what it looks like if you're serious about moving a rail project forward, and JTA knows that because they put serious effort into anything but rail.
Quote from: simms3 on August 10, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
In looking at that master plan, which is what they presented at the JRTC - THAT's what cost $2M? I saw another master plan for an area of town, and I think that one cost either $400K or $600K. It was actually a little more robust than this one in that it included artist's renderings done for the plan, not done previously by the client and thrown in for inclusion.
We are all in the wrong line of work...
Not to diminish other people's work - there were some graphics in there that I could tell whoever was tasked with doing them, it was a bit tedious. But this study is basically:
A recent aerial picture of LaVilla and Avenues Walk apartments - $500 or so
A picture gathering trip to Atlanta (or maybe hiring Atl photographer there) - $1,000
Google Earth - free
Renderings/pictures found on the web - free, maybe some required artistic use purchases, so call it $2,500
Graphic designer + high end graphic design tools - $100K? I don't know, more? Less?
Travel + time for interviews of various parties - $10K?
Salary of the people involved in writing the study - $100K x 2?
And this assumes this is the only study/product the graphic designer and two people do in a year, but in reality they are probably doing many for many clients, and they probably borrow plenty of language from other studies if it fits the bill for this one too.
I just don't understand how these things balloon to $2M, and who is pocketing that?? We all need to figure this out for our own good...
I've wondered wistfully a few times looking at JTA's RFPs if I should start a consulting firm. Not today, I guess.
This study is perhaps a little less than $2 million, but probably not less than $1 million. The original FTA grant was about $900k and there's usually a local share required, which is probably why it took so long to actually start the study.
This is a WSP study, so they would be the ones getting paid with this funding. But I'm sure that there is no relevance in the fact that Nat Ford's wife is an executive at WSP (https://www.wsp.com/en-us/profiles/jannet-walker-ford).
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on August 10, 2023, 10:13:01 AM
Not sure if this has been shared on the board here, though based on some of the ideas already flagged, it looks like some members may already be aware of it:
https://ventureoutjax.com/ (https://ventureoutjax.com/)
QuoteThe City of Jacksonville Transportation Planning Division, which focuses on transportation policy, long-range planning, and project development, is undertaking an outreach effort to identify transportation infrastructure and safety issues throughout Jacksonville. These can range from fixing sidewalks and addressing flooding issues, to potentially identifying new roadways.
This website will allow you to provide feedback to the Transportation Planning Division that will help to identify problems and issues and guide resources to address these issues that residents of the City of Jacksonville are facing in their day-to-day travel. Please visit the interactive map and leave us your thoughts.
There's an ability to map ideas and, once they are vetted and approved (which in my experience has taken several days), other contributors can like and comment on those ideas. The topic of this thread and others could be a great addition to the feedback they are collecting.
Whoops, just added a lot of things to that map. Hopefully they don't reject them. Surely if the main website says that one can propose entire new roads then one can also suggest transit elements. If the city's paying via various taxes then they have the right to also say what transit they want.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 10, 2023, 03:33:34 PM
Whoops, just added a lot of things to that map. Hopefully they don't reject them. Surely if the main website says that one can propose entire new roads then one can also suggest transit elements. If the city's paying via various taxes then they have the right to also say what transit they want.
;D I think it's more a review to ensure they aren't getting trolled or allowing anything inappropriate. As long you refrained from the most explicit version of how bleeping wasteful the U2C is, I think your comments will make it through!
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 10, 2023, 03:33:34 PM
Quote from: simms3 on August 10, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
In looking at that master plan, which is what they presented at the JRTC - THAT's what cost $2M? I saw another master plan for an area of town, and I think that one cost either $400K or $600K. It was actually a little more robust than this one in that it included artist's renderings done for the plan, not done previously by the client and thrown in for inclusion.
We are all in the wrong line of work...
Not to diminish other people's work - there were some graphics in there that I could tell whoever was tasked with doing them, it was a bit tedious. But this study is basically:
A recent aerial picture of LaVilla and Avenues Walk apartments - $500 or so
A picture gathering trip to Atlanta (or maybe hiring Atl photographer there) - $1,000
Google Earth - free
Renderings/pictures found on the web - free, maybe some required artistic use purchases, so call it $2,500
Graphic designer + high end graphic design tools - $100K? I don't know, more? Less?
Travel + time for interviews of various parties - $10K?
Salary of the people involved in writing the study - $100K x 2?
And this assumes this is the only study/product the graphic designer and two people do in a year, but in reality they are probably doing many for many clients, and they probably borrow plenty of language from other studies if it fits the bill for this one too.
I just don't understand how these things balloon to $2M, and who is pocketing that?? We all need to figure this out for our own good...
I've wondered wistfully a few times looking at JTA's RFPs if I should start a consulting firm. Not today, I guess.
This study is perhaps a little less than $2 million, but probably not less than $1 million. The original FTA grant was about $900k and there's usually a local share required, which is probably why it took so long to actually start the study.
This is a WSP study, so they would be the ones getting paid with this funding. But I'm sure that there is no relevance in the fact that Nat Ford's wife is an executive at WSP (https://www.wsp.com/en-us/profiles/jannet-walker-ford).
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! UGH UGH UGH we are a Republican run New Orleans or Chicago. Same corruption, same hiding under the local favored political party. Absolutely out of control...
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2023, 11:28:32 PM
Anyway, it looks like they uploaded both the Duval (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230808_JTA_First_Coast_Commuter_Rail_Workshop_2_Duval_County.pdf) and St. Johns (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230809_JTA_FCCR_Public_Workshop_2_St_Johns_County.pdf) presentations to the study website. Did anyone here attend the St. Johns session?
My first impression is definitely that this gives very little thought to the already-extant plants for most of these areas. Other than basically completely giving up on stuff like the Broudy site in St. Augustine (because it's basically out of the authority's hands, of course), it feels almost haphazard.
Taking a deeper dive...
To speak generally, the fact that they had to highlight that this plan isn't actually about planning a railroad comes off as admitting that they're wasting everyone's time, especially by then showing a timeline that demonstrates they've been spinning wheels for over three decades now.
The JRTC plan just seems like a rehash of what was already done for the U2C TOD study, and before that the LaVilla master plan. We already know what needs to happen there.
Baymeadows has the chance to be interesting, I'm curious whether they'd actually suggest redirecting buses (including the Flyer) to this location. It makes sense to acknowledge that the existing retail centers are underutilized, though it's weird that this completely ignores everything to the east of the railway between it and Phillips. There's still a remarkable amount of parking in the design. The proposal to redevelop that shopping center is fine, but of course if the actual rail project is so far out it doesn't really inspire actually doing anything.
The Avenues Walk concept is pretty much based on just getting rid of the existing retail. Not saying that's a bad idea, but I don't see where the pull would be on JTA or WSP's part to make that happen. Curious that they went so far as coming up with phasing. The proposal here suggests nearly 600,000 square feet of office space, which... for who? And in a practical sense, all the development is pretty far from the actual rail station. While that's not necessarily disqualifying it demands some high-quality connectivity to be meaningful. Also there's a ton of parking, including a straight-up 500-space garage, which seems to defeat the point of being built around a regional rail station.
The 210 idea seems to answer the question of what they'd do now that Racetrack is out of the running (because they're obviously not going to redevelop a brand-new shopping center). But of course the problem there is that the area there is largely spoken for already. I wonder how they expect to "leverage the school board owned parcel" when that's been planned for a bus depot for some time now. I recall the closest parcel being proposed for workforce housing, although that will be at the end of a stub road once St. Johns County eliminates the road crossing. In a sense it feels like these studies just work too slow to actually make a meaningful impact unless you're downtown Jacksonville where just nothing happens.
Palencia has been proposed for a while, but at this point a lot of the development has already happened to the east, and to the west it's either preserve or industrial land. I don't know how they think the River Water Management District is going to let them use that northern parcel. I'm not opposed to the southern stuff but it seems like a lot to have to likely remediate that land in order to redevelop.
It seems like they knew there wasn't much to say about King St because it's already done what a study like this would be supposed to precipitate by rezoning and having a developer prepared to redevelop the site. Honestly their renderings are nicer than what it looks like the final proposal will be, but that's almost certainly St. Augustine's fault for demanding a massive garage and adding a bunch of zoning limitations.
I like that the idea of extending further down the FEC is in here with the SR 312 station. Expanding Dobbs Rd sounds like a good idea, though potentially costly from an infrastructure standpoint. Most of that land isn't very utilized so there's some opportunity, but I'd bet the low density housing to the southwest is going to be a real pain about actually building anything.
But of course, this plan makes no progress on actually constructing a rail line on any useful timeframe, so why does any of this matter?
Quote from: simms3 on August 10, 2023, 04:26:41 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 10, 2023, 03:33:34 PM
Quote from: simms3 on August 10, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
In looking at that master plan, which is what they presented at the JRTC - THAT's what cost $2M? I saw another master plan for an area of town, and I think that one cost either $400K or $600K. It was actually a little more robust than this one in that it included artist's renderings done for the plan, not done previously by the client and thrown in for inclusion.
We are all in the wrong line of work...
Not to diminish other people's work - there were some graphics in there that I could tell whoever was tasked with doing them, it was a bit tedious. But this study is basically:
A recent aerial picture of LaVilla and Avenues Walk apartments - $500 or so
A picture gathering trip to Atlanta (or maybe hiring Atl photographer there) - $1,000
Google Earth - free
Renderings/pictures found on the web - free, maybe some required artistic use purchases, so call it $2,500
Graphic designer + high end graphic design tools - $100K? I don't know, more? Less?
Travel + time for interviews of various parties - $10K?
Salary of the people involved in writing the study - $100K x 2?
And this assumes this is the only study/product the graphic designer and two people do in a year, but in reality they are probably doing many for many clients, and they probably borrow plenty of language from other studies if it fits the bill for this one too.
I just don't understand how these things balloon to $2M, and who is pocketing that?? We all need to figure this out for our own good...
I've wondered wistfully a few times looking at JTA's RFPs if I should start a consulting firm. Not today, I guess.
This study is perhaps a little less than $2 million, but probably not less than $1 million. The original FTA grant was about $900k and there's usually a local share required, which is probably why it took so long to actually start the study.
This is a WSP study, so they would be the ones getting paid with this funding. But I'm sure that there is no relevance in the fact that Nat Ford's wife is an executive at WSP (https://www.wsp.com/en-us/profiles/jannet-walker-ford).
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! UGH UGH UGH we are a Republican run New Orleans or Chicago. Same corruption, same hiding under the local favored political party. Absolutely out of control...
LOL....what?!
For real though, I'm failing to see why this would be more than a $150k to $200k study. Doing this study in general is very questionable because nothing tangible is going to come of it. However, anything close to $1 million is reprehensible.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 10, 2023, 09:42:10 PM
For real though, I'm failing to see why this would be more than a $150k to $200k study. Doing this study in general is very questionable because nothing tangible is going to come of it. However, anything close to $1 million is reprehensible.
Somehow San Francisco only needed $350k from that same federal funding pool to plan TOD at nine existing BART stations, and Madison only needed $290k for TOD planning along a BRT line. At the same time other places have requested more over the years too. I have no idea why the three TOD studies JTA has done so far (U2C, Flyer Green Line, and this) have all required about a million in federal funding each. I certainly don't get the impression that they really did anything to make the Artea project happen (aside from already owning the land), as they claim, and the KIPP project on Golfair has pretty far pre-dated the Green Line study. Despite the obvious opportunity at Gateway Mall and the work they already did planning MobilityWorks, little has actually come of any of that. I mean the Green Line study isn't even technically done yet, and the BRT line has been in operation for nearly 8 years now.
Had a random thought today, maybe someone else has had it before. Looking at OpenRailwayMap, it occurred to me that the line CSX currently uses to access Yulee, the one that passes through Brentwood Golf Course, is... well, a thing.
I wonder if perhaps instead, any future northern regional rail line should use that line so that the S-Line can be used for light rail instead. LRT would have the benefit of allowing limited street-running to make connections and a much less substantial infrastructure compared to mainline regional rail trains, especially along the S-Line. It also means not having to figure out a way through the JTA Myrtle Avenue campus in order to reach the JRTC, although it appears that may be set for some form of reconstruction in the future anyway.
Although the CSX line reaches less direct urbanized areas, it'd still pass by Gateway Mall, where you could potentially extend the light rail to for a connection. Looking at the 2009 study that line isn't even mentioned aside from appearing on maps, and I'm not sure why.
Quote from: simms3 on August 10, 2023, 09:10:40 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 10, 2023, 07:19:17 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2023, 11:28:32 PM
Anyway, it looks like they uploaded both the Duval (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230808_JTA_First_Coast_Commuter_Rail_Workshop_2_Duval_County.pdf) and St. Johns (https://www.jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/230809_JTA_FCCR_Public_Workshop_2_St_Johns_County.pdf) presentations to the study website. Did anyone here attend the St. Johns session?
Thanks for sharing! This basically answers why most commuter rail related technical and/or timeline questions can't be answered. Outside of having updated graphics, I'm not sure what this really accomplishes. Since there's no real plan or timeline for implementation, no one should expect an adjacent property owner to commit to redeveloping anything illustrated in that particular fashion.
In looking at that master plan, which is what they presented at the JRTC - THAT's what cost $2M? I saw another master plan for an area of town, and I think that one cost either $400K or $600K. It was actually a little more robust than this one in that it included artist's renderings done for the plan, not done previously by the client and thrown in for inclusion.
We are all in the wrong line of work...
Not to diminish other people's work - there were some graphics in there that I could tell whoever was tasked with doing them, it was a bit tedious. But this study is basically:
A recent aerial picture of LaVilla and Avenues Walk apartments - $500 or so
A picture gathering trip to Atlanta (or maybe hiring Atl photographer there) - $1,000
Google Earth - free
Renderings/pictures found on the web - free, maybe some required artistic use purchases, so call it $2,500
Graphic designer + high end graphic design tools - $100K? I don't know, more? Less?
Travel + time for interviews of various parties - $10K?
Salary of the people involved in writing the study - $100K x 2?
And this assumes this is the only study/product the graphic designer and two people do in a year, but in reality they are probably doing many for many clients, and they probably borrow plenty of language from other studies if it fits the bill for this one too.
I just don't understand how these things balloon to $2M, and who is pocketing that?? We all need to figure this out for our own good...
Can we say Racket!!
Seriously, I'm an architect at heart but in Information Technology by profession. I do photography as a hobby. I graduated from Florida A&M University with a degree in Computer Science and minor in Mathematical Science. Needless to say, I'd be willing to get Jax all the info needed for $50K ;D
Well there's an update... kind of.
1) JTA is planning on talking to the "railroad folks." Mentions wanting to run to the airport and Amtrak and the airport so I assume there will be talks with CSX as well as FEC.
2) Wants to provide an alternative to I-95 given all the planned construction.
3) Peluso doesn't want it to just be a shuttle for St Johns County residents and wants it to benefit Jacksonville as well, which maybe is where the light rail mention is coming from?
4) 100 feet ROW along the FEC, enough for four tracks.
5) More studies need to be completed (even though this corridor was already studied a decade ago??).
JTA looking at light rail possibilities that go beyond intercity travel (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/10/19/jta-looking-beyond-proposed-route-on-light-rail.html)
Hard to really take any of this seriously when they haven't even talked to FEC/CSX yet but... at least it's something?
I find it ironic the I-95 expansion is used a reason for looking into rail... why not just put all that money towards a rail system instead? One more lane doesn't work. With 100 feet of ROW, you have enough to build dedicated tracks for just passenger use. I would hope JTA would pursue something with decent frequencies (30 minutes at worst, preferably 15) 7 days a week to provide a true alternative to taking I-95.
It honestly sounds like you could have some type of service between Jacksonville and St Augustine in 5 years if JTA/Jacksonville made this a priority. I know it won't happen but kinda crazy to see how more feasible projects are getting ignored for the U2C.
Feels like we're getting led on some more. Maybe JTA needs a distraction from growing unrest over the U2C. News outlets are always mixing up what exactly "light rail" is, it sounds like they've done that here.
I think FDOT was pretty clear that they weren't really interested in trying to do commuter rail as I-95 mitigation the way they did with Tri-Rail. Perhaps they don't expect traffic to be bad enough to justify doing so (although that calls into question the necessity of the widening in the first place). But it's JTA themselves telling St. Augustine that commuter rail would be a decade away anyway, by which a lot of the I-95 work would already be done.
Dedicated passenger tracks would be interesting, but it'd also substantially increase the cost which it doesn't seem anyone has a real interest in paying locally anyway. FrontRunner in Utah is a good comparison for what that could be, but Utah is a lot more willing to spend on mass transit than Florida is.
Also worth noting that the "project under MobilityWorks 2.0" that Greer Johnson Gillis mentions has about $3.4 million in funding from the gas tax. Obviously that is not enough to do anything of use. And this comes after the millions that have been trickled into rail development for about three decades now. If anything, it sounds like they're basically starting over with how vague this all sounds. That or they haven't actually really done any of this work until now.
In a nutshell, as lakelander has said, this project continues to lack both guidance and urgency that would actually deliver a rail service on any useful timeframe. And why wouldn't it? JTA doesn't want to build rail systems. They want, as they've demonstrated with what they've asked for substantial funding for, to build self-driving car networks.
All a bunch of hot air. We're no closer to commuter rail or any other form of rail-based transit than we were in the early 2000s. Unfortunately, anything done back then is now out of date and will have to be done over again, whenever we really do get serious about putting the money where our mouths are at.
This ended up under the radar, but I thought I'd note that WSP did complete their final report on the Commuter Rail TOD study back in December (but didn't upload it to their site until March):
https://jtafcrtod.com/pdfs/24.3.1_JTA_FCCR_TOD_Report_&_Appendix.pdf
Just got done flipping through the TOD document. In general, there's a lot of visioning on private property that's not available for TOD redevelopment to serve a commuter rail system that doesn't exist and that also doesn't have a real committed timeline for implementation. This doesn't appear to be getting us anywhere closer than we were in 2008. All I see is millions spent on studies but we're still at ground zero and attempting to blow hundreds of millions in something that was never included in any of the previous visioning efforts. Here are a few archived gems from back then:
2007 - 2025 Rapid Transit System
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-system-map.jpg)
2008 - Jacksonville Streetcar Study
(https://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/images/transit/jta-streetcar-study/streetcarrreport090808_page_01.jpg)
2008 - JTA Commuter Rail Study
(https://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/images/transit/jta-potential-rail-stations---august-2008/jta-final-station03.png)
2009 - JTA Transit Initiatives
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JTA-BRT-Alternatives/i-HMLxpxp/2/CVPxQstsxchd5hHkn4G3vCNz48sZ69vsn5zZjXkFK/O/JTA%20Master%20Plan.jpg)
2010 - 2030 Urban Core Vision Plan
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Urban-Issues/Urban-Core-Vision-Plan/i-rLmcPrs/0/DDNzbBMWR5f4rt8XcCL26CnrhcpQXwqK3HQPdXrbJ/X2/0736_UC%2BFinal%2BVision%2BLow%2BRes_Page_084-X2.jpg)
The Bold City or the The City of Studies. I've said this before to you Lake but your hard drive is probably somewhat sad to look when you piece it all together lol.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2024, 09:37:15 AM
The Bold City or the The City of Studies. I've said this before to you Lake but your hard drive is probably somewhat sad to look when you piece it all together lol.
Lake's hard drive is an incredibly valuable resource for our fair city ;)
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2024, 09:37:15 AM
The Bold City or the The City of Studies. I've said this before to you Lake but your hard drive is probably somewhat sad to look when you piece it all together lol.
The old hard drive has turned me into a realist when it comes to downtown revitalization and transit talk in this town. I can smell BS a hundred miles away with some of the projects being pushed around now, like the U2C. It's like the Skyway 2.0 process all over again. I wish more people would make it a priority to learn local history before attempting to come up with "innovative" solutions. We'd save taxpayers hundreds of millions and decades of lost time, in the process.
What's the point of a TOD study for a rail system that doesn't exist and likely never will? Last time I checked, we an Amtrak Station (despite not being in the best location) and eight Skyway stations. Figure out how to do real TOD around them before worrying about something that JTA doesn't have the capacity to bring to fruition. Having public meetings to show people what can be built on Walmart's property, without engaging Walmart, is a waste of everyone's time.
Some more TOD blast from the past.....
(https://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/images/development/jackson-square-at-san-marco/jacksonsquare-jta3.jpg)
(https://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/images/development/jackson-square-at-san-marco/jacksonsquare-jta1.jpg)
Some TOD babble from 16 years ago. Some apartments did eventually get built. However, the T in TOD became A, as in Automobile oriented development.
Yeah I just don't get the point of this study. It'd be different if JTA/the city were actually pledging money to this instead of whatever the U2C is, but that's not the case...
As I said last year, it's unclear what the value of these studies are other than to say that commuter rail is being studied. It's clear from JTA's actions that this is not something they are taking seriously. There are things you do if you are seriously working to develop a rail system, and JTA is not doing those things, because instead they are spending hundreds of millions on the complete opposite of a rail system. Their decision three years ago to ask for $3.4 million for rail studies from the gas tax and one hundred eleven times that for the U2C makes their priorities clear.
As Lake says, these are not properties JTA owns, and even the study notes that they would all require rezoning to do anything with, which JTA has no power to enact. The report also notes some of the issues associated with the complete lack of a timeline for implementation: the developer of the King Street site moving forward with their own plans, which meant no real study was conducted there; and the shopping center development at Race Track Road forcing them to relocate a proposed station to CR210 (which also has future development plans, including proposals to eliminate the grade crossing there).
So yeah, JTA gave a million dollars (plus local match) to Nat Ford's wife's company to spit out a 500 page study that they can point to as proof that they are studying commuter rail. And that's all passenger rail will keep being until someone important decides to care otherwise.
I've been following this site since 2010. Every local politician should be forced to read all articles on here, including the old MJ site. Given Deegan's sensibility, I thinks she is paying attention to what is on here. As for JTA, Nat Ford has to go before any progress on anything is going to happen? Do we get him until he retires?
This is the one area of the TOD report that can probably be utilized since the city is interested in LaVilla and bringing rail back to the old terminal.
EDIT: The actual train station is labeled as a food hall and market. There's a shared use path running adjacent to the rail ROW and the new commuter rail station is a block west of the old terminal. Need a lot more coordination with stuff like this.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/JTA-Commuter-Rail-Jacksonville-Terminal-TOD-Plan/i-qP73SbC/0/CZSHwq7RbvXvkZNX7qdtn2G9V3pkzGxGpLxsG7TCt/X2/24.3.1_JTA_FCCR_TOD_Report_JACKSONVILLE%20TERMINAL%20STATION%20AREA%20PLAN%20ONLY_Page_14-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/JTA-Commuter-Rail-Jacksonville-Terminal-TOD-Plan/i-dZN3X9x/0/rPf6zDhTg4VnxHc4BhXf8Xt8MhHbvDTKmCqRjJ2H/X2/24.3.1_JTA_FCCR_TOD_Report_JACKSONVILLE%20TERMINAL%20STATION%20AREA%20PLAN%20ONLY_Page_17-X2.jpg)
One question I do have about it is that they didn't acknowledge the previous 2004 Amtrak plan, the 2019 CRISI grant track improvement plans, the 2019 DIA LaVilla Neighborhood Development Strategy Plan and future consideration for Brightline's needs.
Article on CRISI grant, which will include 7 miles of track infrastructure improvements:
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2019/06/07/feds-award-grant-to-ease-san-marco-train-delays/4960080007/
Amtrak 2008
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/i-xBbqCNG/0/CfKV5LwfWvTHgQXwwR4QwTvspTCDVwcC95b6njP3d/X2/Amtrak%20Design%20Drawings_022704_Page_06-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/JRTC-Amtrak-Station-Plans-and/i-RF8RFB8/0/DLrBr53vXsK9S72ChtxSxGMnqQtZKzkHFvd2JNgZX/X2/Amtrak%20Design%20Drawings_022704_Page_08-X2.jpg)
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on May 08, 2024, 02:04:01 PM
As for JTA, Nat Ford has to go before any progress on anything is going to happen? Do we get him until he retires?
The man is getting paid to do almost nothing. I doubt he leaves without being kicked out.
Maybe we can write a letter to Mayor Deegan along with a petition to prioritize the First Coast Commuter Rail over the U2C program. It might make sense strategically to not be outright against the U2C but employ a softer approach to suggest that the FCCR might serve more people and promote growth, etc. which may serve as a catalyst for future light rail expansion.
Here's an example that I pulled from ChatGPT that could serve as a baseline; I could revise it but I'm not really sure how effective it would be:
(I wanted to have it as a spoiler, but I don't know how to do that.)
Quote[/size]
Prioritizing First Coast Commuter Rail as a Concept Project: A Catalyst for Future Light Rail Projects in Jacksonville
Jacksonville, FL, is at a pivotal juncture in its transportation landscape, featuring initiatives like the U2C autonomous vehicle project and the established Skyway monorail system. Amidst these endeavors, the concept of the First Coast Commuter Rail emerges as a compelling alternative that warrants prioritization as a proof of concept and a catalyst for future light rail projects in the city.
Jacksonville's commitment to transportation innovation is evident through various initiatives, including the U2C autonomous vehicle project and the longstanding Skyway monorail system. However, a critical examination reveals the potential of the First Coast Commuter Rail as a transformative solution, albeit in its conceptual stage, that addresses key challenges while also paving the way for future light rail developments.
Despite the estimated $400 million cost of the U2C autonomous vehicle project, the First Coast Commuter Rail holds promise in enhancing regional connectivity at a potentially lower cost. Serving an estimated 52,000 commuters, with expectations of growth, the commuter rail offers a cost-effective and scalable solution compared to the substantial investment required for autonomous vehicles.
Even as a concept project, the First Coast Commuter Rail enjoys considerable community support and public trust, rooted in the potential benefits it offers in terms of reliability, safety, and environmental sustainability. Building upon this existing support fosters a positive perception of public transit, encouraging greater ridership and laying the groundwork for future light rail projects that can further enhance connectivity and accessibility.
Commuter rail systems like the envisioned First Coast Commuter Rail contribute significantly to environmental sustainability by promoting mass transit use and reducing individual vehicle emissions. Although in the conceptual stage, the scalability of rail-based solutions makes them a cost-effective and sustainable option for long-term transit planning. This scalability extends to future light rail projects, leveraging the infrastructure and experience gained from the commuter rail concept.
Prioritizing the First Coast Commuter Rail as a concept project serves as a catalyst for future light rail developments in Jacksonville. The successful implementation and operation of the commuter rail can demonstrate the feasibility and benefits of rail-based transit, garnering support for expanding light rail networks to serve additional corridors, neighborhoods, and commuter routes within the city.
In conclusion, the concept of the First Coast Commuter Rail emerges as a strategic priority and catalyst for future light rail projects in Jacksonville. By prioritizing it as a proof of concept and leveraging its potential benefits in enhancing regional connectivity, fostering community support, and promoting environmental sustainability, the city can lay the groundwork for a comprehensive and efficient transit network that includes both commuter rail and light rail solutions.
While innovation remains crucial, strategic decision-making should prioritize solutions with demonstrated success and tangible benefits. The First Coast Commuter Rail, even in its conceptual stage, represents a transformative opportunity to elevate Jacksonville's transportation system and pave the way for a future of interconnected and sustainable transit options for its residents and visitors.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2024, 09:41:57 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2024, 09:37:15 AM
The Bold City or the The City of Studies. I've said this before to you Lake but your hard drive is probably somewhat sad to look when you piece it all together lol.
Lake's hard drive is an incredibly valuable resource for our fair city ;)
Quote from: thelakelander on May 08, 2024, 11:42:39 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 08, 2024, 09:37:15 AM
The Bold City or the The City of Studies. I've said this before to you Lake but your hard drive is probably somewhat sad to look when you piece it all together lol.
The old hard drive has turned me into a realist when it comes to downtown revitalization and transit talk in this town. I can smell BS a hundred miles away with some of the projects being pushed around now, like the U2C. It's like the Skyway 2.0 process all over again. I wish more people would make it a priority to learn local history before attempting to come up with "innovative" solutions. We'd save taxpayers hundreds of millions and decades of lost time, in the process.
I hope we as a city can learn from the resources already put together in the past for something better in the future. JTA needs a strong leader.
Here we might go again.
Just opened a virtual live stream of today's JTA board workshop and meeting (still ongoing) and caught the end of what appears to be an 11-slide presentation on a Jacobs-Deloitte study of "First Coast Regional Rail Service". I was late so couldn't catch what exactly they discussed, but I did hear Nat Ford remarking that this would be perhaps a decade away, presumably preferring the discussion that followed about Phase III U2C expansion studies.
I would certainly like to see what exactly was proposed. I suspect this probably focused on Downtown to St. Augustine as we've seen before, but interesting to have a newer study of it.
Maybe they will include the slide deck when they post the meeting minutes. It doesn't appear they post full agenda packages prior to the meeting.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 22, 2026, 02:09:42 PM
Here we might go again.
Just opened a virtual live stream of today's JTA board workshop and meeting (still ongoing) and caught the end of what appears to be an 11-slide presentation on a Jacobs-Deloitte study of "First Coast Regional Rail Service". I was late so couldn't catch what exactly they discussed, but I did hear Nat Ford remarking that this would be perhaps a decade away, presumably preferring the discussion that followed about Phase III U2C expansion studies.
I would certainly like to see what exactly was proposed. I suspect this probably focused on Downtown to St. Augustine as we've seen before, but interesting to have a newer study of it.
We've been talkin for 20 years. We're no closer to anything now than we were in 2005 related to commuter rail....other than pissing the S-Line ROW away with a shared use path.
Does UF owning the Prime Osborne preclude us from getting commuter rail in that spot downtown again? It would be a real shame if so.
I have kind of resigned myself to the fact that we just are not going to get commuter rail. I think things like Emerald Trail are the only "transit oriented" development that has enough steam and funding to actually happen.
thelakelander can answer more fully, but no, UF owning the old terminal building does not preclude bringing commuter (or any other) rail downtown. The "train station" with the boarding/alighting platforms would be adjacent to the tracks (plus appropriate sidings) that cross the St. Johns River on the FECRR bridge. As I recall from seeing conceptual plans years ago, there would be an elevated and enclosed pedestrian bridge or concourse connecting the platforms with the historic Union Terminal building.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 23, 2026, 11:33:32 AM
thelakelander can answer more fully, but no, UF owning the old terminal building does not preclude bringing commuter (or any other) rail downtown. The "train station" with the boarding/alighting platforms would be adjacent to the tracks (plus appropriate sidings) that cross the St. Johns River on the FECRR bridge. As I recall from seeing conceptual plans years ago, there would be an elevated and enclosed pedestrian bridge or concourse connecting the platforms with the historic Union Terminal building.
That can be found here:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/amtraks-plans-for-downtown20-years-ago/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/amtraks-plans-for-downtown20-years-ago/)
The best use for the current main terminal building would be that of a mixed used/hotel/food and beverage concept that would serve UF, an adjacent train station and the LaVilla neighborhood at large.
Like many of these:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/rehabilitated-urban-passenger-rail-stations/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/rehabilitated-urban-passenger-rail-stations/)
Quote from: thelakelander on January 22, 2026, 08:52:54 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 22, 2026, 02:09:42 PM
Here we might go again.
Just opened a virtual live stream of today's JTA board workshop and meeting (still ongoing) and caught the end of what appears to be an 11-slide presentation on a Jacobs-Deloitte study of "First Coast Regional Rail Service". I was late so couldn't catch what exactly they discussed, but I did hear Nat Ford remarking that this would be perhaps a decade away, presumably preferring the discussion that followed about Phase III U2C expansion studies.
I would certainly like to see what exactly was proposed. I suspect this probably focused on Downtown to St. Augustine as we've seen before, but interesting to have a newer study of it.
We've been talkin for 20 years. We're no closer to anything now than we were in 2005 related to commuter rail....other than pissing the S-Line ROW away with a shared use path.
And yes, talk of commuter rail is completely pointless. JTA has unfettered access to burn through taxpayer money and redistribute that wealth to a series of privately-owned subcontractors (including Nat Ford's own wife) via the U2C boondoggle that will eventually blow up in irrelevance once Waymo, Tesla and the like figure out their own autonomous technology (which is light years ahead of Beep- JTA's tit sucking pickpocket).
Jax's biggest opportunity is bringing intercity rail back Downtown by 1) relocating Amtrak in the short term and 2) working with Brightline in the longer term
Quote from: fieldafm on January 23, 2026, 12:54:29 PMJax's biggest opportunity is bringing intercity rail back Downtown by 1) relocating Amtrak in the short term and 2) working with Brightline in the longer term
^This. I have below zero on the Fahrenheit scale level of confidence that Jax will ever see commuter rail implemented by JTA in my lifetime. Even if you remove JTA from the discussion, I'd question the demand and feasibility of a traditional commuter rail system carrying people from low density sprawl (with half of the people staying in spots like Northern St. Johns being too scared to come into the city) to a CBD that's hemorrhaging its daytime office employment population. More in more, its seeming like some form of intercity rail with the frequency of traditional commuter rail makes more sense.
As far as this goes, the administration's focus is on returning Amtrak to the Downtown station. It's moving along, and will open the door for other options in the future. I'd like to see the commuter rail stuff included in the long range planning, as it can help guide land use planning we're doing on the route. The tracks are mostly in place and have been for 120+ years, and the studies have been done — might as well use them.
What has been the tangible progress on this administration's goal of getting Amtrak downtown again? Is that something we could reasonably see occur before the end of a 2nd Deegan term? I hope that is true, but this is first I am hearing of it being a priority for the administration.
Is the City of Jacksonville transferring ownership and control of the old Union Terminal building to University of Florida? I worry about the possibilities with an outside university owning and controlling one of the most important buildings in our city.
Great point.
Quote from: Jankelope on January 28, 2026, 09:46:09 AM
What has been the tangible progress on this administration's goal of getting Amtrak downtown again? Is that something we could reasonably see occur before the end of a 2nd Deegan term? I hope that is true, but this is first I am hearing of it being a priority for the administration.
Not too much to say yet, but I can talk about where we're at a bit. The City brought together all the stakeholders and sought and won a Build America Bureau grant for $1.25 million in 2024 for capacity building, to fund planning and staff. Currently working on plans for the buildings and other nearby property, which is a bit easier as it's partly a matter of just updating existing plans from years ago. The current idea is that UF will own the terminal building itself, with other outbuildings as necessary, but that's all early. UF has been hugely supportive as have the other stakeholders.
Not sure what can be shared yet or what stage the project is currently in, but do you have any sense of when this might be announced publicly and what the overall timeline of the project looks like? This is really exciting news.
As for the scope of the work, I understand the main terminal would be managed by UF, but I'm curious what type of rail this is envisioned to be. Would it function as intercity rail, regional rail, or something more localized and focused on moving Jacksonville residents around?
Personally, I'd much rather hop on a train and use my bike for my daily commute than sit in traffic. I know this might be a stretch, but I'm also hopeful the hours of operation(HOO) would be robust enough—especially on weekends + gamedays—to offer a real alternative to driving and even cut into some of the Uber/Lyft demand for bar patrons getting home after a drink.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 28, 2026, 06:01:32 PM
Quote from: Jankelope on January 28, 2026, 09:46:09 AM
What has been the tangible progress on this administration's goal of getting Amtrak downtown again? Is that something we could reasonably see occur before the end of a 2nd Deegan term? I hope that is true, but this is first I am hearing of it being a priority for the administration.
Not too much to say yet, but I can talk about where we're at a bit. The City brought together all the stakeholders and sought and won a Build America Bureau grant for $1.25 million in 2024 for capacity building, to fund planning and staff. Currently working on plans for the buildings and other nearby property, which is a bit easier as it's partly a matter of just updating existing plans from years ago. The current idea is that UF will own the terminal building itself, with other outbuildings as necessary, but that's all early. UF has been hugely supportive as have the other stakeholders.
It has already been about a year now since City Council approved (https://jaxcityc.legistar.com/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=7087695&GUID=BBB8B89E-3EE0-44B2-AD13-2A171344E680) a matching $250,000 in in-kind work to total $1.5 million on that grant. Given that this is focused around a single site and not any kind of linear corridor, and as you mention this is partly just updating existing plans, how long is the rail-related portion itself meant to take?
I see from here (https://jaxcityc.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=13662767&GUID=ED4FFA71-B4BA-49C7-879E-F2AC35697FE9) a "Planning and Design" phase that would take about 18 months, which if you started last January would mean a "Amtrak Recommencing Operations at Prime Osborn" report among others by this summer, which would already be the halfway point of the grant. Is that when we can expect something?
And I understand it's not necessarily your direct responsibility Bill, but for the mention of having "brought together all the stakeholders" it seems somewhat concerning that there are still a number of disparate projects with unclear levels of cooperation, collaboration, or commitment, including the JTA JRTC project (https://jtamobilityworks2.com/jrtc-rail-terminal/) that the city's own LOGT is also funding, the continually vague state of the commuter rail program they keep throwing study money at (including the city's sales tax that funds JTA), Amtrak's planned $12 million investment (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/statefactsheets/FLORIDA25.pdf) into the existing Jacksonville station by FY2028, and the state's role in the Corridor ID program (https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/e1f1bd55cfad489a859cc8905d0dad16#ref-n-VTTSG7) that includes Jacksonville.
That's before you look back at all the other studies that have already repeatedly discussed this area, including JTA's U2C TOD plan that already has a focus on the JRTC and the LaVilla Neighborhood Development Strategy (https://issuu.com/gai-csg/docs/pl_lavilla_neighborhood_development_strategy_2019-) that we now see foresaw an academic campus on this site alongside a train station. I'm just not sure what exactly is making this particular "LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project" a clear shift in delivering tangible progress towards a new station as opposed to yet another of
many opaque studies. I would think the goal of capacity building would be putting the city in a position to actually coordinate these moving parts so that there aren't so many different projects all clashing with each other, but that doesn't actually seem to be the objective here, which is confusing.
When it comes to anything rail related and JTA, we can wrap fish with the product as that's a more effective use of the print than anything it says since the actual rail companies haven't really been partners. Unfortunately commuter rail is hot air in this town more so than anything actually moving forward.
The LaVilla Neighborhood Development Study wasn't done with much real community engagement and needs to be revisited altogther when it comes to some of the recommendations (i.e. ignored LaVilla's "main street", called for a park at Davis and Union...one of the most high traffic sites in the neighborhood) and inaccurate market assumptions (i.e. claimed no market for retail, yet Riverside Avenue is booming and the Pearl District is proving opposite) made. I assisted the LaVilla community in blowing many of its recommendations up, one being the heritage trail, which somehow the consultant found a way to exclude the heart of the neighborhood and its cultural heritage story, in favor of dreams about having a bike trail run down State Street (i.e. I bet FDOT was never truly engaged because there's no way in hell District 2 would have been on board as conservative as it is amongst the districts statewide). Once we blew up these recommendations, we then worked with the DIA to create a new trail designed with the LaVilla descendant community's lead, which should be installed along a different path this spring.
My understanding is Amtrak plans to keep its existing Jacksonville station. The downtown station would be a second one added. South Florida, Lakeland-Winter Haven and the Orlando area are Florida MSAs with more than one Amtrak station, so the precedence is there and the more stations we have in the region, the more of a chance for intercity rail to provide some of the same benefits of commuter rail without having to wait decades for JTA to figure it out. The State is probably the biggest barrier to expanding Amtrak's offerings, but that's something that can quickly change, depending on who replaces DeSantis when his term is up.
QuoteI'm just not sure what exactly is making this particular "LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project" a clear shift in delivering tangible progress towards a new station as opposed to yet another of many opaque studies. I would think the goal of capacity building would be putting the city in a position to actually coordinate these moving parts so that there aren't so many different projects all clashing with each other, but that doesn't actually seem to be the objective here, which is confusing.
I had the opportunity to sit in the room during the discussions that ultimately resulted in Jax going after and successfully getting the Build America Grant grant.
With JTA, DIA, FRA, FTA, Amtrak, etc. at the table, the feds came to the conclusion that we didn't have a real plan for returning rail back to downtown and they suggested we go after this grant if we wanted to lay the foundation for getting federal support in bringing rail back to downtown.
I see this actual first step as breaking down the silos and ending up with a single vision and plan that also addresses the logistics, design, cost estimates, etc. of the train station, rail support operations and associated infrastructure.
Much of the properties surrounding the station already have development plans underway, so incorporating the context/market as it exists now, which would also include Brooklyn, a part of the Rail Yard District and the Emerald Trail's McCoys Creek project.
Most important, doing this plan allows us to actually go after rail funding and not JTA spoon-feeding people more commuter rail bs with FEC not really being at the table.
Here's a thought... If UF finally gets up to 20,000+ on their Jax campus, what about a starter line from Jax to Gainesville? Is that feasible? It might make up for the lack of a straight line interstate connection. UF, Shands, the sports events, etc. might create a good bit of traffic and Jax airport, beaches and metro area might appeal to Alachua area residents for vacations, day trips/getaways and long distance connections.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2026, 08:40:03 PM
When it comes to anything rail related and JTA, we can wrap fish with the product as that's a more effective use of the print than anything it says since the actual rail companies haven't really been partners. Unfortunately commuter rail is hot air in this town more so than anything actually moving forward.
I certainly agree, it just strikes me as odd that we are then still paying them millions of our tax dollars to continue doing that while also separately doing this other effort. Are we going to complete this $1.5 million LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project and then
also spend $3.4 million on... something else? Is there a reason that the City, with its commitment to building its own capacity for this project cannot say that it would like to instead spend its funding raised through its taxes on something that furthers that built capacity? That seems like a pertinent question for having all the stakeholders together.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2026, 08:40:03 PM
The LaVilla Neighborhood Development Study wasn't done with much real community engagement and needs to be revisited altogther when it comes to some of the recommendations (i.e. ignored LaVilla's "main street", called for a park at Davis and Union...one of the most high traffic sites in the neighborhood) and inaccurate market assumptions (i.e. claimed no market for retail, yet Riverside Avenue is booming and the Pearl District is proving opposite) made. I assisted the LaVilla community in blowing many of its recommendations up, one being the heritage trail, which somehow the consultant found a way to exclude the heart of the neighborhood and its cultural heritage story, in favor of dreams about having a bike trail run down State Street (i.e. I bet FDOT was never truly engaged because there's no way in hell District 2 would have been on board as conservative as it is amongst the districts statewide). Once we blew up these recommendations, we then worked with the DIA to create a new trail designed with the LaVilla descendant community's lead, which should be installed along a different path this spring.
Now this is good to hear. It's unfortunate then that we spent that effort going in the wrong direction and now have to redo that work, so I hope then that the point of building the capacity is that capacity being able to do these things
correctly so that we're not having to revisit them just a few years later.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2026, 08:40:03 PM
My understanding is Amtrak plans to keep its existing Jacksonville station. The downtown station would be a second one added. South Florida, Lakeland-Winter Haven and the Orlando area are Florida MSAs with more than one Amtrak station, so the precedence is there and the more stations we have in the region, the more of a chance for intercity rail to provide some of the same benefits of commuter rail without having to wait decades for JTA to figure it out. The State is probably the biggest barrier to expanding Amtrak's offerings, but that's something that can quickly change, depending on who replaces DeSantis when his term is up.
Speaking of South Florida given this news, do we know yet then that Amtrak would actually agree to occupy a completed station, given that it would likely add operational complexity for them (trains continuing down the A-Line will have to back into the station like in Tampa since that area connects to the FEC)? Amtrak notably chose to abandon plans to use the station built at Miami's airport for similar operational reasons, while citing they would be open to running state-supported routes there.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2026, 08:40:03 PM
QuoteI'm just not sure what exactly is making this particular "LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project" a clear shift in delivering tangible progress towards a new station as opposed to yet another of many opaque studies. I would think the goal of capacity building would be putting the city in a position to actually coordinate these moving parts so that there aren't so many different projects all clashing with each other, but that doesn't actually seem to be the objective here, which is confusing.
I had the opportunity to sit in the room during the discussions that ultimately resulted in Jax going after and successfully getting the Build America Grant grant.
With JTA, DIA, FRA, FTA, Amtrak, etc. at the table, the feds came to the conclusion that we didn't have a real plan for returning rail back to downtown and they suggested we go after this grant if we wanted to lay the foundation for getting federal support in bringing rail back to downtown.
I see this actual first step as breaking down the silos and ending up with a single vision and plan that also addresses the logistics, design, cost estimates, etc. of the train station, rail support operations and associated infrastructure.
Much of the properties surrounding the station already have development plans underway, so incorporating the context/market as it exists now, which would also include Brooklyn, a part of the Rail Yard District and the Emerald Trail's McCoys Creek project.
Most important, doing this plan allows us to actually go after rail funding and not JTA spoon-feeding people more commuter rail bs with FEC not really being at the table.
I can easily believe that the parties involved did not have a plan for rail. I have no problem believing that, or that this grant could
potentially change that. What worries me is the opaqueness in whether this grant
actually represents the city turning over a new leaf on completing such a plan.
As far as I can tell from out here right now, the silos still seem to exist, this one merely joining them. This grant is already a third of the way through its lifespan, and it's not immediately clear what that means. I see from the council legislation that there is supposed to be a full-time Program Manager, part-time Planner/Engineer, and an engaged consultant on this project. Have those people been hired? What are they doing, in terms of "working on plans for the buildings and other nearby property"? Are all the deliverables mentioned in the Work Plan underway? Will they be complete in the next six months if this is to remain on-schedule? And then is this all still a totally separate effort from what JTA and FDOT are seemingly also doing involving the prospect of rail in Jacksonville?
This all remains very confusing and unfortunate when places like Cocoa and Stuart, which are not the nation's tenth largest cities and currently have no passenger rail stations at all, are somehow both perfectly capable of finding enough capacity to throw their hats into the ring for the five billion dollar pot (https://railroads.dot.gov/partnership-program) of passenger rail money available until next week. The IIJA has just about run its course after
five years and all we seem to have to show for it are this grant and whatever its output is, the U2C Neighborhood Extensions planning grant, the
second First Coast Flyer Green Line TOD planning grant, $100,000 to have deputies stand at railroad crossings, and whatever road projects it might have funded. There was time to make four JTA Board appointments but seemingly no time to make sure those people would secure the agency's cooperation with the city on these matters, which is why we're even having to separately build capacity in the first place. That all concerns me about the status of this project and what that will actually mean for building a train station Downtown.
I doubt it. There's no rail line between Jax and Gainesville and no density either. The cost of the Skyway would be peanuts in comparison but the Skyway would likely still generate more ridership. With that said, UF won't have anywhere near 20k in LaVilla for decades.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 29, 2026, 11:34:02 PM
Here's a thought... If UF finally gets up to 20,000+ on their Jax campus, what about a starter line from Jax to Gainesville? Is that feasible? It might make up for the lack of a straight line interstate connection. UF, Shands, the sports events, etc. might create a good bit of traffic and Jax airport, beaches and metro area might appeal to Alachua area residents for vacations, day trips/getaways and long distance connections.
That wouldn't be a starter line. The S-Line is CSX's main freight corridor through the state since the A-Line was partly sold to accommodate SunRail. Even if you could add enough capacity there to also accommodate passenger rail without impacting freight service (an expensive prospect already), you'd then need to restore, but really greenfield construct, thirteen miles of rail line from Waldo along SR-24 (including right past a runway, which might no longer be considered acceptable by FAA clearance rules) to actually reach University Avenue in Gainesville, at which point you're still a mile and a half across town from the university itself. That's not to say it shouldn't happen, just that it'd be a very expensive project to do.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 29, 2026, 11:57:02 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 29, 2026, 11:34:02 PM
Here's a thought... If UF finally gets up to 20,000+ on their Jax campus, what about a starter line from Jax to Gainesville? Is that feasible? It might make up for the lack of a straight line interstate connection. UF, Shands, the sports events, etc. might create a good bit of traffic and Jax airport, beaches and metro area might appeal to Alachua area residents for vacations, day trips/getaways and long distance connections.
That wouldn't be a starter line. The S-Line is CSX's main freight corridor through the state since the A-Line was partly sold to accommodate SunRail. Even if you could add enough capacity there to also accommodate passenger rail without impacting freight service (an expensive prospect already), you'd then need to restore, but really greenfield construct, thirteen miles of rail line from Waldo along SR-24 (including right past a runway, which might no longer be considered acceptable by FAA clearance rules) to actually reach University Avenue in Gainesville, at which point you're still a mile and a half across town from the university itself. That's not to say it shouldn't happen, just that it'd be a very expensive project to do.
Points noted, Marcus, and thanks for the reply. Compared to Brightline's investment, it would seem the improvements required would not be that significant for the possible advantages gained. Having a fast commute to UF/Gainesville, to me, would do wonders for the economy and vibrancy of Jacksonville (and Gainesville). Having the State's premier university tied closer to Jax than any other City should be a great driver on top of UF's planned community in Downtown Jax. It could even expand/accelerate UF's plans for Jax. And, don't underestimate adding Shands to our already deep medical community. Not many cities in the world could boast of easy access to so many premier medical institutions.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 29, 2026, 11:46:22 PM
I certainly agree, it just strikes me as odd that we are then still paying them millions of our tax dollars to continue doing that while also separately doing this other effort. Are we going to complete this $1.5 million LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project and then also spend $3.4 million on... something else? Is there a reason that the City, with its commitment to building its own capacity for this project cannot say that it would like to instead spend its funding raised through its taxes on something that furthers that built capacity? That seems like a pertinent question for having all the stakeholders together.
I can't speak for the foolishness with questionable spending locally in the past. Hopefully, this project helps break down the silos between local agencies that have resulted in millions being spent on useless counterproductive studies that are never implemented.
QuoteNow this is good to hear. It's unfortunate then that we spent that effort going in the wrong direction and now have to redo that work, so I hope then that the point of building the capacity is that capacity being able to do these things correctly so that we're not having to revisit them just a few years later.
Its fortunate that the community finally stood up. If what was done this round, had been done in the 1980s and 1990s, most of LaVilla and Brooklyn would still be there. I'm optimistic about things moving forward when it comes to the neighborhood.
QuoteSpeaking of South Florida given this news, do we know yet then that Amtrak would actually agree to occupy a completed station, given that it would likely add operational complexity for them (trains continuing down the A-Line will have to back into the station like in Tampa since that area connects to the FEC)? Amtrak notably chose to abandon plans to use the station built at Miami's airport for similar operational reasons, while citing they would be open to running state-supported routes there.
Amtrak was in the room. This study is supposed to be the start to figuring these things out. The focus on actual real rail operational issues and logistics is something the local play play studies I said were a waste, never attempted to address.
QuoteI can easily believe that the parties involved did not have a plan for rail. I have no problem believing that, or that this grant could potentially change that. What worries me is the opaqueness in whether this grant actually represents the city turning over a new leaf on completing such a plan.
As far as I can tell from out here right now, the silos still seem to exist, this one merely joining them. This grant is already a third of the way through its lifespan, and it's not immediately clear what that means. I see from the council legislation that there is supposed to be a full-time Program Manager, part-time Planner/Engineer, and an engaged consultant on this project. Have those people been hired? What are they doing, in terms of "working on plans for the buildings and other nearby property"? Are all the deliverables mentioned in the Work Plan underway? Will they be complete in the next six months if this is to remain on-schedule? And then is this all still a totally separate effort from what JTA and FDOT are seemingly also doing involving the prospect of rail in Jacksonville?
I don't know what the status is on the administration side of things at COJ but I can say the biggest difference here is that the mayor actually cares. Just as important, the feds who we want money from said that this is the route to go with them, given we had no real plan. That meeting I mentioned was the first time many of these players had actually been in the same room and that was only because the mayor's office put it together. Previous administrations cared less.
QuoteThis all remains very confusing and unfortunate when places like Cocoa and Stuart, which are not the nation's tenth largest cities and currently have no passenger rail stations at all, are somehow both perfectly capable of finding enough capacity to throw their hats into the ring for the five billion dollar pot (https://railroads.dot.gov/partnership-program) of passenger rail money available until next week. The IIJA has just about run its course after five years and all we seem to have to show for it are this grant and whatever its output is, the U2C Neighborhood Extensions planning grant, the second First Coast Flyer Green Line TOD planning grant, and whatever road projects it might have funded. There was time to make four JTA Board appointments but seemingly no time to make sure those people would secure the agency's cooperation with the city on these matters, which is why we're even having to separately build capacity in the first place. That all concerns me about the status of this project and what that will actually mean for building a train station Downtown.
Both Cocoa and Stuart had done some legwork associated with Brightline. They are ahead of us. We've done nothing but sell the public wolf tickets over the last two decades, so Jax isn't really in position.
But the best thing here is that we don't need JTA to lead to get intercity rail back downtown. So some progress can be made while the battle of local politics around that animal works itself out.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 30, 2026, 12:06:50 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 29, 2026, 11:57:02 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 29, 2026, 11:34:02 PM
Here's a thought... If UF finally gets up to 20,000+ on their Jax campus, what about a starter line from Jax to Gainesville? Is that feasible? It might make up for the lack of a straight line interstate connection. UF, Shands, the sports events, etc. might create a good bit of traffic and Jax airport, beaches and metro area might appeal to Alachua area residents for vacations, day trips/getaways and long distance connections.
That wouldn't be a starter line. The S-Line is CSX's main freight corridor through the state since the A-Line was partly sold to accommodate SunRail. Even if you could add enough capacity there to also accommodate passenger rail without impacting freight service (an expensive prospect already), you'd then need to restore, but really greenfield construct, thirteen miles of rail line from Waldo along SR-24 (including right past a runway, which might no longer be considered acceptable by FAA clearance rules) to actually reach University Avenue in Gainesville, at which point you're still a mile and a half across town from the university itself. That's not to say it shouldn't happen, just that it'd be a very expensive project to do.
Points noted, Marcus, and thanks for the reply. Compared to Brightline's investment, it would seem the improvements required would not be that significant for the possible advantages gained. Having a fast commute to UF/Gainesville, to me, would do wonders for the economy and vibrancy of Jacksonville (and Gainesville). Having the State's premier university tied closer to Jax than any other City should be a great driver on top of UF's planned community in Downtown Jax. It could even expand/accelerate UF's plans for Jax. And, don't underestimate adding Shands to our already deep medical community. Not many cities in the world could boast of easy access to so many premier medical institutions.
Brightline's investments were much easier to make between Orlando and Miami to connect 10 million people living in those MSAs and serve millions of tourist moving between those regions. Even with all of that, they are still taking a big financial risk. Jax is a backwater in comparison and Gainesville is rural compared to Jax. Spending billions on a commuter rail line between Jax and Gainesville would be political suicide. This is a connection where a bus, similar to the Denver to Boulder express bus route from Union Station, would be the more cost effective solution.
^ An hourly or even bi-hourly direct bus from the center of campus to the JRTC would be pretty good. I remember taking Greyhound while at UF and having a four hour layover in Lake City. Wouldn't recommend it.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2026, 12:13:20 AM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 29, 2026, 11:46:22 PM
I certainly agree, it just strikes me as odd that we are then still paying them millions of our tax dollars to continue doing that while also separately doing this other effort. Are we going to complete this $1.5 million LaVilla Transit Innovation and Equity Project and then also spend $3.4 million on... something else? Is there a reason that the City, with its commitment to building its own capacity for this project cannot say that it would like to instead spend its funding raised through its taxes on something that furthers that built capacity? That seems like a pertinent question for having all the stakeholders together.
I can't speak for the foolishness with questionable spending locally in the past. Hopefully, this project helps break down the silos between local agencies that have resulted in millions being spent on useless counterproductive studies that are never implemented.
I certainly hope so as well. But there are things that actually have to happen to break down those silos and after a year of with unclear progress on that I'm concerned.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2026, 12:13:20 AM
QuoteI can easily believe that the parties involved did not have a plan for rail. I have no problem believing that, or that this grant could potentially change that. What worries me is the opaqueness in whether this grant actually represents the city turning over a new leaf on completing such a plan.
As far as I can tell from out here right now, the silos still seem to exist, this one merely joining them. This grant is already a third of the way through its lifespan, and it's not immediately clear what that means. I see from the council legislation that there is supposed to be a full-time Program Manager, part-time Planner/Engineer, and an engaged consultant on this project. Have those people been hired? What are they doing, in terms of "working on plans for the buildings and other nearby property"? Are all the deliverables mentioned in the Work Plan underway? Will they be complete in the next six months if this is to remain on-schedule? And then is this all still a totally separate effort from what JTA and FDOT are seemingly also doing involving the prospect of rail in Jacksonville?
I don't know what the status is on the administration side of things at COJ but I can say the biggest difference here is that the mayor actually cares. Just as important, the feds who we want money from said that this is the route to go with them, given we had no real plan. That meeting I mentioned was the first time many of these players had actually been in the same room and that was only because the mayor's office put it together. Previous administrations cared less.
There is a difference between doing more and doing enough. I can respect the idea that this Mayor cares, but I can also look at her record on transportation over the last two and a half years and feel some concern about what happens when the rubber meets the road. Even if the feds pointed us down this road, there's nothing really keeping this from ending up as yet another study that doesn't produce a real plan but our own ability to not be Classic Jacksonville. And in this particular policy area, in some unfortunate ways, this Mayor has been Classic Jacksonville, even if getting the grant is a departure from the norm.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2026, 12:13:20 AM
QuoteThis all remains very confusing and unfortunate when places like Cocoa and Stuart, which are not the nation's tenth largest cities and currently have no passenger rail stations at all, are somehow both perfectly capable of finding enough capacity to throw their hats into the ring for the five billion dollar pot (https://railroads.dot.gov/partnership-program) of passenger rail money available until next week. The IIJA has just about run its course after five years and all we seem to have to show for it are this grant and whatever its output is, the U2C Neighborhood Extensions planning grant, the second First Coast Flyer Green Line TOD planning grant, and whatever road projects it might have funded. There was time to make four JTA Board appointments but seemingly no time to make sure those people would secure the agency's cooperation with the city on these matters, which is why we're even having to separately build capacity in the first place. That all concerns me about the status of this project and what that will actually mean for building a train station Downtown.
Both Cocoa and Stuart had done some legwork associated with Brightline. They are ahead of us. We've done nothing but sell the public wolf tickets over the last two decades, so Jax isn't really in position.
But the best thing here is that we don't need JTA to lead to get intercity rail back downtown. So some progress can be made while the battle of local politics around that animal works itself out.
I admit that I'm sure I'm not embedded in what exactly the institutional puzzle of our regional transportation policy is meant to look like. So I just find it difficult from out here to believe that we are somehow going to simultaneously stand steadfast by JTA leadership as visionaries and fund their separate efforts to pretend to work on rail projects while justifying their tech company cosplay and appoint board members who won't interfere with any of those plans, while
also building an entirely separate rail project management apparatus outside of that (which is already a third of the way through its limited budget and timescale) capable of delivering a publicly funded intercity rail station on any reasonable timeframe while having already largely missed the multiple federal funding opportunities and seemingly having to proceed outside the obvious remaining pipeline for projects. And this is on top of already trying to move ahead with a university campus project on that same site that will eventually require us to also figure out what we are going to do with the convention center, while we are also seemingly already flailing with whether we're even going to have a science museum.
I'm not saying we can't land that plane, but it would require a level of public administrative competence on transportation policy that I'm already unsure is present. Because if we already have to build a rail project management apparatus separate from the public transit agency for political reasons I think it bodes poorly for the ability to cohesively or coherently move regional transportation policy forward. That simply isn't breaking down a silo, it's building another one that maybe might do its job this time. And again, I know it's not your fault or Bill's fault that is the case, but I'm worried this isn't a tenable model if we are intentionally not even trying to use other city funds explicitly meant for a downtown rail terminal for political reasons because those interests are at odds with these interests.
If I were Amtrak, how much sense does it make to add service to this new off-mainline station that the city is having to try and make happen without the support of its own transit agency which is duplicating labor? They've already turned it down in a city where they
did have the transit agency's support! They can be in the room the whole time, that doesn't mean they'll sign the lease at the end. That worries me. The opaqueness of the progress on this grant worries me.
QuoteIf I were Amtrak, how much sense does it make to add service to this new off-mainline station that the city is having to try and make happen without the support of its own transit agency which is duplicating labor?
Totally understandable about being worried.
However, one could also make an argument that JTA has already done enough for Amtrak by investing in the JRTC across the street. That move was more important than any study they can do around commuter rail or the U2C. Plus Amtrak is already operating in town. Would a station in LaVilla that is adjacent to the JRTC, TOD and surrounded by UF' graduate campus result in more riders to their existing service? Could being across the proposed Semiconductor Institute assist Amtrak in riding the wave of momentum to secure some partnerships and prestige that would otherwise not be present for them? Will a day come where Amtrak's existing intercity lines are split along the CSX-A and FEC corridors between Jax and Miami? All these are questions that need to be answered. They are also all things that are much easier to overcome with something already in operation than us hoping that JTA will come around and accomplish anything rail-related regionally. But we can't get to answering them or positioning ourselves for implementation without starting somewhere.
JTA can't even get the basics right. Some of the things we're talking about are out of their league right now. Happy to see there are some political leaders speaking out.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2026/01/30/jacksonville-city-council-member-calls-for-withholding-jta-funding-over-paratransit-changes-makes-no-sense-to-me/
Quote from: thelakelander on January 30, 2026, 08:54:31 AM
QuoteIf I were Amtrak, how much sense does it make to add service to this new off-mainline station that the city is having to try and make happen without the support of its own transit agency which is duplicating labor?
Totally understandable about being worried.
However, one could also make an argument that JTA has already done enough for Amtrak by investing in the JRTC across the street. That move was more important than any study they can do around commuter rail or the U2C. Plus Amtrak is already operating in town. Would a station in LaVilla that is adjacent to the JRTC, TOD and surrounded by UF' graduate campus result in more riders to their existing service? Could being across the proposed Semiconductor Institute assist Amtrak in riding the wave of momentum to secure some partnerships and prestige that would otherwise not be present for them? Will a day come where Amtrak's existing intercity lines are split along the CSX-A and FEC corridors between Jax and Miami? All these are questions that need to be answered. They are also all things that are much easier to overcome with something already in operation than us hoping that JTA will come around and accomplish anything rail-related regionally. But we can't get to answering them or positioning ourselves for implementation without starting somewhere.
There's a saying in German transportation planning:
Organisation vor Elektronik vor Beton. Organization before Electronics before Concrete. I'm not sure how you build a coherent plan for regional transportation without deciding first what JTA's role in that will be. Either fully taking rail out of their hands for others to handle (including the financial decision-making) or reforming the agency so that it actually does that work instead of whatever it's been doing. If it were clearer what exactly the city has spent the last year doing itself, and this Mayor not so publicly committed to backing JTA's present course of action, I would feel more confidence in whether that was going to happen. I think for Amtrak it's already a risk to consider new stations in Florida, especially any that add operational complexity like having to reverse into the station, after essentially three Governors in a row who have been hostile to passenger rail and no indication the next one won't be either. They already said no to Miami for those reasons after years at the table, and that station is directly connected to existing regional rail, metro, a major international airport, and now a new soccer stadium and surrounding development.
As I said earlier, I think a clear step in the right direction would be whatever this new capacity in the city is, moving to actually consolidate rail planning efforts into one better-funded pipeline that makes an effort to meet deadlines instead of being an additional silo among many. That was a basic step in Cocoa and Stuart, even if multiple hands touched their station projects (and even changed hands in the latter's case) the buck clearly stopped with someone. We have to actually decide if we are going to have one $5 million rail program (even if operating along multiple tracks) or a $1.5 million and $3.4 million program that do a bunch of the same things independently of each other because we don't want to hurt JTA's feelings. It's not unheard of for a city to be leading the Corridor ID process, Chattanooga is doing exactly that with the Sunbelt-Atlantic Compact (https://www.sunbeltatlanticrailroad.com). FDOT doesn't appear to have made any tangible progress in about a year and a half on the Jacksonville corridor, I don't see why the city can't pick up that ball if it is really looking to build long-term capacity for once the $1.5 million from this grant runs out (which also directly positions seeking federal funding through federal rail programs beyond the rather vague pipeline suggested in this grant's work plan).
Furthermore, it would help to clarify a lot of what we're discussing right now for there to actually be a page on the city website, or its own website, for what is even happening with this grant-funded project. Chattanooga has managed that, JTA technically has, surely we can too in order to demonstrate how this is different from every other study that's already been done on this.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on January 30, 2026, 12:45:26 PM
There's a saying in German transportation planning: Organisation vor Elektronik vor Beton. Organization before Electronics before Concrete. I'm not sure how you build a coherent plan for regional transportation without deciding first what JTA's role in that will be. Either fully taking rail out of their hands for others to handle (including the financial decision-making) or reforming the agency so that it actually does that work instead of whatever it's been doing. If it were clearer what exactly the city has spent the last year doing itself, and this Mayor not so publicly committed to backing JTA's present course of action, I would feel more confidence in whether that was going to happen.
In this case (bringing existing intercity rail back to the downtown train station), I'd argue JTA should have a seat at the table, which they do, but its not necessary for them to lead the project.
QuoteI think for Amtrak it's already a risk to consider new stations in Florida, especially any that add operational complexity like having to reverse into the station, after essentially three Governors in a row who have been hostile to passenger rail and no indication the next one won't be either. They already said no to Miami for those reasons after years at the table, and that station is directly connected to existing regional rail, metro, a major international airport, and now a new soccer stadium and surrounding development.
We'll have to get through this $1.25 million study to really be able to answer these questions. Addressing rail operations, both freight and passenger, are an important part of the study's scope.
QuoteAs I said earlier, I think a clear step in the right direction would be whatever this new capacity in the city is, moving to actually consolidate rail planning efforts into one better-funded pipeline that makes an effort to meet deadlines instead of being an additional silo among many.
This may be a step in moving in this direction. I agree that the silos must be broken. I remember when Lakeland built its new (current) Amtrak station in downtown to face Lake Mirror Park and major city investments being made there. The city led that project (and financially invested in it), not the local transit agency so there's some precedence there with intercity rail.
QuoteThat was a basic step in Cocoa and Stuart, even if multiple hands touched their station projects (and even changed hands in the latter's case) the buck clearly stopped with someone. We have to actually decide if we are going to have one $5 million rail program (even if operating along multiple tracks) or a $1.5 million and $3.4 million program that do a bunch of the same things independently of each other because we don't want to hurt JTA's feelings. It's not unheard of for a city to be leading the Corridor ID process, Chattanooga is doing exactly that with the Sunbelt-Atlantic Compact (https://www.sunbeltatlanticrailroad.com). FDOT doesn't appear to have made any tangible progress in about a year and a half on the Jacksonville corridor, I don't see why the city can't pick up that ball if it is really looking to build long-term capacity for once the $1.5 million from this grant runs out (which also directly positions seeking federal funding through federal rail programs beyond the rather vague pipeline suggested in this grant's work plan).
This is a project that addresses the return of passenger rail at a facility (at the time, owned by COJ) and what needs to be done to allow that to happen in a rail bottleneck through the urban core. I'll have to dig back up the RFP I saw last summer, but I didn't see an issue of why it couldn't move forward.
QuoteFurthermore, it would help to clarify a lot of what we're discussing right now for there to actually be a page on the city website, or its own website, for what is even happening with this grant-funded project. Chattanooga has managed that, JTA technically has, surely we can too in order to demonstrate how this is different from every other study that's already been done on this.
Hopefully, they'll get one up. As of now, I don't think COJ has even elected a consultant.
Ennis has said a lot of what I would, but I want to add, I don't blame Marcus (or anyone) for healthy skepticism on projects like this, especially given the boneheaded decisions of the past and the fact that there isn't a lot we can talk about just yet. But as the one in the administration who originally pushed to make this a priority, I've been impressed with the work put in so far.
There's a lot of work that needs to be done here by a lot of parties, and some things have evolved since we started (mostly for the better). I do want to say that (1) the administration is committed to making progress on the station, as am I personally, and (2) it absolutely wouldn't be even the spark of a concept of a plan if it wasn't the mayor driving it. That's not a knock on any other person or agency, it's just a complex situation with a lot of distinct stakeholders, and it needed someone to take the reins and coordinate between everyone. Fortunately, we have the mayor we have.
Marcus, let's get lunch or a drink some time. I'd definitely love to hear more of your feedback on the station.