Commuter Rail's Return?

[thelakelander]

Lol a horse would get you there faster and a carriage would carry more people.

[marcuscnelson]

LOL, JTA planning "commuter AV's" to St. Augustine?

You joke, but they do want to run AVs as a circulator system in St. Augustine, which the city has included in its mobility plan. However, as recently as a year ago in an engineering report the technology was declared "not mature enough for an early implementation phase."

Yet apparently JTA feels it is mature enough for revenue service.

[marcuscnelson]

If we were on the ball, we'd be moving Amtrak back downtown, then go from there: potential additional Amtrak routes, Brightline, etc. Then we'd know what other rail needs we may have. This project seems like thinking in a silo and spending research money on an project that's unlikely to happen.

JTA did include this in their Strategic Plan:

Integrated Passenger Rail Service

Bring together all rail service in Jacksonville to the Downtown rail terminal. Work with passenger railroads (e.g., Amtrak) to co-locate railroad service.

It's "scheduled for implementation" in FY26 and only shows a budget of $100k (not including the $3.4m that is officially just for JRTC terminal PD&E but they keep claiming is actually for the entire commuter rail corridor), and I haven't seen any evidence of them engaging Amtrak other than Amtrak updating their intercity proposal to include the station (which isn't necessarily JTA's doing). So yeah, issue of money not going where mouths are.

[marcuscnelson]

Last week, JTA gave another presentation to the St. Augustine City Commission about the proposed rail project, I've trimmed down to the relevant segment and uploaded it here:

https://youtu.be/zDQroqNWZV8

[jcjohnpaint]

Thanks for sharing. Didn't realize 95 expansion was starting this year. Avenue Mall station needs more consideration than surface lot. Sure Racetrack will be the same. Not sure why the clown cars are part of this as if they are everywhere.

[jaxjaguar]

From the video, "we done decades of research on this." I feel like this perfectly describes Jacksonville projects. 2-3 decades of research and studies, followed by inaction or project that was funded on decades old data and ultimately gets budgetized into a failure.

[jaxlongtimer]

Feature article now in the Times Union covering the future of commuter rail, mainly between Jacksonville and St. Augustine with stops at the current convention center/Union Station/JTA Intermodal Hub, the Avenues, Race Track Road and King Street at US 1.  Comments from a wide range of transportation officials with JTA saying it possibly being be built out between 2030 and 2040.

How about a commute by train between downtown Jacksonville and historic St. Augustine? It's possible

....As the Florida Department of Transportation embarks on a project to add a new northbound and southbound lane to Interstate 95 in Duval and St. Johns counties, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority says a dedicated commuter rail line between them is needed as well...

....Now a $1 million Federal Transit Administration grant is funding a commuter train development study. Additionally, $3.9 million is earmarked from the city's Local Option Gas Tax for JTA's Preliminary Engineering and National Environmental Policy Act study on a rail terminal next to its LaVilla headquarters. A preliminary engineering and environmental review is planned in 2025 or 2026....

....The JTA calls the commuter rail "an ideal mobility enhancement," the average rail commute time comparable to driving: an estimated 48 minutes from downtown Jacksonville to St. Augustine, trains running from 5 a.m. to just before 10 p.m. daily....

....Florida East Coast already has 100 feet of right of way on its freight line between Jacksonville and St. Augustine, mostly a single track with switches and some double track segments, JTA said.

"It is FEC's right-of-way and we have to work with them to be able to use it. But they have enough right-of-way for four lanes of traffic," Clark said. "... Tri-Rail and SunRail have encouraged us to do as much dedicated track as we possibly can to limit the cross-traffic of any other rail service.".....

.....Clark said the estimated 37 miles of track and commuter rail stops could come in 2030 to 2040. The estimated cost would come when the full planning, development and environmental study formulates a potential design and some "real numbers."

Final funding would have to be sought via a partnership between the JTA, local, state and federal stakeholders and "railroad partners," he said.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/business/transportation/2022/07/26/first-coast-commuter-rail-would-connect-jacksonville-st-augustine-florida/10095395002/

[thelakelander]

2040? I thought it was mentioned that it could happen within three to five years? We've been talking about this since at least 2005 or so. That's 25 to 35 years to go from concept to reality....

Let's hope Amtrak or Brightline can do something on the FEC years before 2030 to 2040.

[acme54321]

The comment of final funding coming from "railroad partners" is interesting.  The railroad isn't going to fund anything unless they are making money off of it.  I wonder if they are investigating structuring this as some sort of PPP with FEC or Brightline.

[thelakelander]

With a timeline of 2030 to 2040, this would basically piggyback whatever Amtrak and Brightline would likely do prior to this. If either of those entities do something along the FEC, infrastructure enhancements would have to be included as a part of their project. For example, I'm pretty sure the Amtrak corridor service plan could likely include some funding assistance for at least two (DT Jax and St. Augustine) of the four identified commuter rail stations. Other than that, I don't expect a rail entity like FEC to fund anything. If anything, they'd want compensation to allow passenger rail to operate on their property.

[marcuscnelson]

Finally have the updated presentation link available. Includes some... imaginative renderings of what TOD at JRTC and King St. could look like. Also strangely drops the previously proposed maintenance facility site.

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/43572ee892264d9aa1df6dc1c72e6a24

[marcuscnelson]

Didn't expect to have an update for this, but I guess there is one.

Saw this tweet from Larry Luksha on Twitter, and followed it to this, an invite to community workshops on August 8th and 9th in Jacksonville and St. Augustine. Which then led me to this website.

It appears the TOD study originally funded back in 2020 is finally underway. Interestingly, they've started with fifteen "potential station areas," with 7 of them being "Identified Stations for TOD" and the rest being "Stations for Further Analysis. However, the FAQ does note that "The grant requires this study to identify four stations for Phase I of the project." So presumably this would involve developing plans for the "identified stations" but then finalizing with four of those as "Phase I stations".

I spent some time few weeks ago doing a lot of analysis on the prospect of phasing a commuter rail program in a way that would support progressive implementation of the infrastructure over time (let me know if you want to see what I found), and looked at a lot of different options as far as funding sources and technologies involved, and frankly I found myself honestly coming around to thelakelander's perspective, that given the institutional, technological, and financial challenges involved, it would probably be most prudent to plan a system and take steps to provide for its future existence (getting it "shovel-ready," so to speak), but not go through the effort to build and operate it in the near future. With the funds we have available right now or soon, there is so, so much that could be accomplished within the city just by operating the infrastructure we already have to the extent it's supposed to be. Taking early steps like making sure that any of the suburban bus depots JTA constructs as part of decentralizing maintenance operations from Myrtle Avenue can also support rail depots, or actually securing the land for future rail stations, or running useful suburban bus operations (the Express Select is not that, yet), or actually hurrying up and getting the Prime Osborn redeveloped into an intercity (and future regional) train station, and even leveraging this TOD study to actually make the policy changes in zoning and land use and transportation investment required to support rail would all be more useful than trying to build a commuter rail line right this moment. And heck, maybe by doing the work to eventually make it possible, "eventually" will almost magically become "right now."

[marcuscnelson]

In related news, the news broke today that Raleigh-Durham's proposed commuter rail system will not be supported for federal funding by the FTA.

On a concerning note, details of an FTA meeting for that project suggest that the Biden Administration is actively disinterested in funding new commuter rail projects, and instead is prioritizing funding bus rapid transit. This quote in particular strikes me as an alarming sign:

Hutchinson told the gathering that the FTA will pay for half of qualifying BRT lines. He said federal officials like the lower cost of the bus-based systems and that they can more easily adapt to changes in commuting patterns, as a region grows and develops.

[Jax_Developer]

DC can't figure out what they want to do with train transit. Sad really. China laid more high speed rail in 10 years than the entire world while we debated the funding for a few select tracks.

[iMarvin]

Didn't expect to have an update for this, but I guess there is one.

Saw this tweet from Larry Luksha on Twitter, and followed it to this, an invite to community workshops on August 8th and 9th in Jacksonville and St. Augustine. Which then led me to this website.

It appears the TOD study originally funded back in 2020 is finally underway. Interestingly, they've started with fifteen "potential station areas," with 7 of them being "Identified Stations for TOD" and the rest being "Stations for Further Analysis. However, the FAQ does note that "The grant requires this study to identify four stations for Phase I of the project." So presumably this would involve developing plans for the "identified stations" but then finalizing with four of those as "Phase I stations".

I spent some time few weeks ago doing a lot of analysis on the prospect of phasing a commuter rail program in a way that would support progressive implementation of the infrastructure over time (let me know if you want to see what I found), and looked at a lot of different options as far as funding sources and technologies involved, and frankly I found myself honestly coming around to thelakelander's perspective, that given the institutional, technological, and financial challenges involved, it would probably be most prudent to plan a system and take steps to provide for its future existence (getting it "shovel-ready," so to speak), but not go through the effort to build and operate it in the near future. With the funds we have available right now or soon, there is so, so much that could be accomplished within the city just by operating the infrastructure we already have to the extent it's supposed to be. Taking early steps like making sure that any of the suburban bus depots JTA constructs as part of decentralizing maintenance operations from Myrtle Avenue can also support rail depots, or actually securing the land for future rail stations, or running useful suburban bus operations (the Express Select is not that, yet), or actually hurrying up and getting the Prime Osborn redeveloped into an intercity (and future regional) train station, and even leveraging this TOD study to actually make the policy changes in zoning and land use and transportation investment required to support rail would all be more useful than trying to build a commuter rail line right this moment. And heck, maybe by doing the work to eventually make it possible, "eventually" will almost magically become "right now."

Wow, seeing so many stops in St Augustine is a pleasant surprise. Add a few more local stops and you could easily get a nice urban rail system. More stops should be added in Jacksonville as well... Emerson, University, Sunbeam/Shad (or both), and Greenland. That probably turns this into regional/suburban rail instead of commuter rail, but it makes more sense imo.

As for focusing on increased bus service vs commuter regional rail... I still think train service would be more beneficial. It brings investment that a bus never will. The zoning changes still have to happen, but that's the easy part.

In related news, the news broke today that Raleigh-Durham's proposed commuter rail system will not be supported for federal funding by the FTA.

On a concerning note, details of an FTA meeting for that project suggest that the Biden Administration is actively disinterested in funding new commuter rail projects, and instead is prioritizing funding bus rapid transit. This quote in particular strikes me as an alarming sign:

Hutchinson told the gathering that the FTA will pay for half of qualifying BRT lines. He said federal officials like the lower cost of the bus-based systems and that they can more easily adapt to changes in commuting patterns, as a region grows and develops.

To be fair, pure commuter rail systems really are a waste of money in 2023. All day regional rail just makes a lot more sense... JTA should be aware of this before applying for any federal funding. Anything less than 30 minute frequencies off-peak is not worth the hassle.

DC can't figure out what they want to do with train transit. Sad really. China laid more high speed rail in 10 years than the entire world while we debated the funding for a few select tracks.

They spread the money too thin. I understand that may be the "equitable" thing to do, but you have to start somewhere first. The California HSR project should've been fully funded years ago...  the costs are only going to keep rising. Just get it done.