Metro Jacksonville

Re-evaluating the Skyway

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The Skyway has been one of the biggest points of contention in Jacksonville transportation history. Many critics claim it is a bust that goes  from nowhere to nowhere .  This article takes a look at the Skyway from a different viewpoint.  One that reveals that expanding the system to make it more viable may not be as expensive as previously thought.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/918

I'm Originally From Jax and I'm moving back in 3 years. But have not lived in Jax from 25 years, I guess this means now that I'm somewhat of an outsider now. So, here my thought on extending the system. If they would just extend this thing to some places that matter... I.E. The sports complex, Metro park and San Marco. You would be surprised how fast ridership would go up. Every time I'm in Jax with someone new, I have to bring them on the skyway. Everyone Loves it and wishes they had one in their city! Jax HAS one, Just make it GO SOMEWHERES! Just my 2 cents!  ;D 

This by far is one of the best article I have read. I dont understand why these people in this city just dont get it. One point that really stands out is when they mention a quiet downtown. The only time downtown is happening besides the work week is a major holiday, sporting events etc. Expand the skyway and connect it to light rail people!!!!

It is indeed refreshing to know that the skyway was built to handle a lot more volume. Extending the length to denser population areas is a no-brainer. It should also compliment very well the commuter rail if that is ever built.

Great article, everyone! A lot of this is very encouraging not just for us but for the Skyway too. Great job. 8)

The article makes a compelling argument.  I think a expansion to the stadium makes a lot of sense, but I think it would totally ruin the Bay Street corridor.  Could the line be moved onto the Shipyards property?  If it could not, I would suggest using a Beaver Street route to the the Stadium instead.   

Not to sound redundant, but extending this system to the sports district is imperative.  When we have 10 Jags games in the fall, 60,000 people are Downtown.  These people cannot be continually herded back in their cars like cattle and pushed out after a game.  When the Jags play and hopefully win, especially a 1 p.m game, fans have to have an easy way to get dropped off in the core.  If Sleiman can make the improvements to the Landing he has talked about with the constructuion of his long awaited parking garage and Bay Street  ("E" Street) can add a little more (possibly a restaurant or two to go with the bars), Downtown, at least during the Fall can truly be a destination. 

In addition, a link would provide a direct connection between Metropolitan Park and Kids Kampus with the downtown core.  This would give downtown businesses a stronger chance to benefit from the isolated feastivals and cultural events that take place in that public space.

Terrific article Ennis and Bob!  One of the best I've read yet!  I see the most positive impact in extending to Sports District first, then Five Points for sure.  Those are two places that seem like no brainers.


FYI, there is a typo at the very end.  It says "Article be ..." instead of "Article by ..."  Just thought I'd throw that out there.  ;)

Since I first saw the Skyway I thought it odd that it started and ended in basically no mans lands. I feel the proposed yellow lines make for a good starting point. Extensions into Riverside, San Marco and the SportsDistrict would be a good start.

If the Skyway were to be extended to Atlantic Blvd/San Marco Square, would that necessitate building a multi-modal there for transfers on/off a possible future commuter rail line?  Would that be feasible?  Would that even be possible?

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As a Transportation Supervisor with Trailways Bus System, I joined with Jacksonville Journal Editor, the late George Harmon, in launching an all out attack on the Skyway plans as soon as they became public knowledge. The two of us were promoting a combination Light Rail and Heritage Streetcar system that would have been the first of it's kind in the country. Based on the San Diego experience of the same time period, and our ultimate investment in the Skyway, we could have built 32 miles of rail for the cost of 2.5 Skyway miles. Even former Mayor Jake Godbold, who pushed the Skyway project over the top, says we should have never have built it. Perhaps the only thing worse then building any unproved fixed transit system, is half-way building it.

In the case of the Skyway it seems the City and the original critics have swapped positions. As the wildly optimistic ridership projections of JTA began to crumble from 50,000 to 30,000, 17,000, 10,000 and finally 7,000 daily riders, to a reality of about 3,000. The Skyway came under the microscope of the press. Then the jokes started and the splashes made by the politicians bailing off this sinking ship could be heard in Washington DC. Indeed the City went into damage control mode, when international press attention was focused on the half built transit system. "A hotel wasn't built", "downturn in the economy," "downtown failed to develop", "we built parking garages", everyone on the inside had an excuse. Everyone on the outside couldn't resist one more swipe at Jacksonville. JTA lost it's credibility and its public voice and the vultures were already circling. Even the FTA in Washington, when speaking about the Skyway, claimed they didn't know where Jacksonville was. Today fear paralyzeses all party's, at a time when the worst thing we can do is sit on the Skyway as-is and hope for the best. This is done by a well meaning political machine that doesn't want to appear irresponsible for the stewardship of the City's limited budget. They feel they would appear irresponsible as the media has continued the attack. 

With the help of Council Woman Glorious Johnson, COJ and Mr. Mike Miller of JTA. Metro Jacksonville was alloweed unhindereded access to the Skyway, it's plant and it's people. We spoke with many suppliers of monorail systems and they can't understand why we couldn't expand for under $15 Million per mile.

At 10 miles of route construction, the Skyway - Monorail costs equal that of JTA'S super-bus, BRT plan. If for some reason the Skyway were to replace the current routes of the proposed BRT system, the cost would be about 1/2 of the JTA estimates for a BRT-Quick-Way system. Imagine - Monorail for less then the price of a bus.

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(BRT Quick-Way, is a bus system using grade separateded, sometimes elevated busways
and exclusive bus lanes - it has been shown to cost as much or more then Light Rail.
BRT Lite, is a bus system using some of the Quick-Way features at congestion points, otherwise it uses HOV lanes and signal priority - it's cost is about equal with commuter rail.)

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OCKLAWAHA
STILL OUT HERE!

glad to see you come around to support the Skyway Ock....but I have a question...

If we build a more expansive rail system to circulate through the urban core, it will likely be either streetcar or skyway, not both.

Working under this premise, which one do you support and why?

QuoteDOCTOR K
If the Skyway were to be extended to Atlantic Blvd/San Marco Square, would that necessitate building a multi-modal there for transfers on/off a possible future commuter rail line?  Would that be feasible?  Would that even be possible?

Sure is, in fact it would be about 1/2 of the purpose of heading down there. Commuter Rail to that location is also a no brainer, but so far the consultants have skipped it for Prudential Drive!?!? Put in this Skyway segment and a small multi-modal station and you get:

San Marco-San Jose finally have a way over the FEC railroad when it's blocked.
Easy access to downtown  (and other districts) from the trains to the South.
Easy access for pedestrians
quick highway access to Philips, SR13-San Jose-Hendricks, Atlantic, Beach
Access to southside bus routes
Access from downtown and hotels to San Marco Shopping experience
True intermodal hubs draw grants, and TOD.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quoteglad to see you come around to support the Skyway Ock....but I have a question...

If we build a more expansive rail system to circulate through the urban core, it will likely be either streetcar or skyway, not both.

Working under this premise, which one do you support and why?

I propose that since we already have the Skyway, that we expand on that - in as much as it fits the urban core and immediate surroundings. The drawback is the Skyway was never designed for longer distances and is a short haul - lower speed type vehicle. Even so it regains some time by using "air speed" rather then ground speed, and it has been tested at much higher speeds. Still I see it as the Master Downtown Distributor all along the upside down "T" of Bay Street and Hogan. Outside of the urban core, the Skyway becomes visual blight and would have a much harder time achieving any meaningful expansion. There are many areas where it could be expanded within the urbanized zones without much fuss.

Streetcar would not compete with the Skyway at all. In fact they would take different routes, and serve different sectors of the City. The streetcars can run down Water taking transfers off the Skyway at Newnan or Union Station. The streetcars can also reach up and touch Springfield, the Court House, Shand's, Gateway, or South into Riverside or Ortega. The Skyway would NEVER get into RAP or SPAR territory without a huge fight. Streetcars on the other hand would blend in. This is why I push a modified heritage streetcar system rather then a pure modern one. In the future if we want to go modern they both can run on the same railway. Streetcar or LRT also makes the most sense when talking about a long trunk line construction such as along Arlington Expressway to the Beaches, or JTB, or power line easements. 

In Transit MIX SELLS and the better the mix or matrix, the better the connections and ability to move about. I had much rather see 10 miles of streetcar and 5 of Skyway as a fully integrated system rather then 20 miles of either one or the other. Both systems would be huge tourist draws once they were built enough to function as transportation.  

OCKLAWAHA

I totally agree that the Skyway should be extended to the Sports Complex. I do agree that a Bay Street overhead route might be harmful to future progress on that street. Her is my solution. Bring that section down to street level. Go down Bay Street and make a left on A Philip Randolph. Go between the Arena and the Baseball stadium and place a station in that corner of the fairgrounda property.

The problem with bringing the skyway down to ground level on Bay is you would eliminate southbound pedestrian and automobile traffic to the riverfront/Hyatt from all streets north of Bay.  If you're south of Bay, you would be forced to make right-only turns on Bay.

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QuoteGatorShane
I totally agree that the Skyway should be extended to the Sports Complex. I do agree that a Bay Street overhead route might be harmful to future progress on that street. Her is my solution. Bring that section down to street level. Go down Bay Street and make a left on A Philip Randolph. Go between the Arena and the Baseball stadium and place a station in that corner of the fairgrounds property

Hello friend, sadly, the one major drawback of monorail is it doesn't allow for ANY at grade crossings. There is simply no way to get a car or a truck, even a pedestrian over this track even when sitting square on the ground. Take a good look at the photo above and you see how it overhangs the running rail on both sides. It "hugs" it's rail, and that hug could be as much as 2 feet wide on either side. So even if a roadway could be elevated to the top of the rail, you'll still have to deal with 2-3 foot wide running trenches on eachside penalty for falling in the crack? 440 volts of EXPOSED AC current! ZAP!


When we talk of the monorail being at ground level it will only work where there is NO CHANCE OF CROSSING IT, where it can be fenced, or where it can be controlled such as in a station.


People have so little concept of the power in those wires. Lakelander took a photo of a flexible contact lead that was simply huge (perhaps he'll post it). If you ever get the chance to tour a streetcar or monorail operations room and go into the transformer or switching room you'll never forget the electric air, the hum of the room, the hair on your arms, legs and head jumping up and standing on end. The smell of ozone. In the case of a power plant the turbines roar like a jet engine, and the entire building vibrates to their tune. If you like high horsepower autos, motorcycles, or machines of any kind, it will absolutely amaze you.


On the positive side, I don't think the Skyway has harmed the street-scape much on Bay where it currently runs. It is something of a novelty, as unique as EPCOT. There is also no reason why the stations have to look the same, or why they can't match the buildings around them. Without building all of that bridge structure and going with the economy of just the simple monorail beams, it will appear much smaller too. As for the sidewalk below, the beams give us a chance to canopy long segments of downtown sidewalk. A Teflon coated, washable canopy might even enhance the downtown street experience. Something else Lakelander and I discussed as we explored the system in the rain.

OCKLAWAHA

Excellent article guys!  I've been a fan of the skyway, despite the fact that I can rarely use it, since I moved to Jacksonville.  We have so much of the infrastructure in place it only makes sense to increase the number of destinations.  Because of this fact, it seems like expanding the skyway could possibly be the easiest and quickest improvement to our mass transit.  If we funded the expansion and started building now, couldn't we have it running in two years?  Economically it makes sense to me, and I'm betting that it would spur private development, something we need more of right now.  Let JTA know downtown residents want this to happen, and soon.

Gentlemen!

Let me add my voice to the growing chorus of praise.   This is an excellent article; highly persuasive, informative and presented with a clear and concise logic that seems irrefutable.  In light of this, only a fool would consider BRT (strike that - only a fool or the son of an oil and gasoline magnate!).

My only question is: How best to carry this agenda forward to success?  Where do we start and how can I help?

Just a minor detail, Can they change the color to Blue and Silver? The current color scheme is dated.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 17, 2008, 04:39:07 PM
The problem with bringing the skyway down to ground level on Bay is you would eliminate southbound pedestrian and automobile traffic to the riverfront/Hyatt from all streets north of Bay.  If you're south of Bay, you would be forced to make right-only turns on Bay.

I would love to see the Skyway expand to the stadium district. I don't know if what I'm thinking of is a good idea or not but think of this: Just suppose if there is a way to extend the monorail car but also let it run on only a single track instead of a dual track. May save money and Bay Street won't have to eliminate any of the lanes going to the sports complex. What do you think?

QuoteI would love to see the Skyway expand to the stadium district. I don't know if what I'm thinking of is a good idea or not but think of this: Just suppose if there is a way to extend the monorail car but also let it run on only a single track instead of a dual track. May save money and Bay Street won't have to eliminate any of the lanes going to the sports complex. What do you think?

Hey fellow supporter! The monorail cars/trains do operate on a single track. The double track iis n place to allow the line to reach the 30,000 passengers per hour-per direction (Transit rule of thumb). It also helps the traffic flow on the railroad as there is no need to "hold one train out" while another occupies the track space.
IMO - We COULD use single track on an extension to Talleyrand Port district, a couple of blocks north of Rosa Parks, perhaps west of Rosa Parks to Edward Waters College etc... Lighter traffic lines. The stadium trunk would be nearly impossible if we want the Skyway to play a roll in moving the crowd. I'm not convinced that we would lose any traffic lanes with a Skyway extension. Seems to work fine on the Jefferson Street - Central Station line.

Keep those ideas rolling in my friends. United we WIN.

OCKLAWAHA

Notice how all of the systems in this video use a simple beam, not an elevated highway. It would probably cost less to expand it to useful destinations than to tear it down.

http://www.youtube.com/v/TUoqeRADp4Q

Ock-- Thanks for the insight. I guess I never realized the problem with ground level monorail systems--Thanks!--Shane

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 17, 2008, 07:53:24 PM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/RobertsFIRSTbirthday025.jpg)

 

QuoteGatorShane
I totally agree that the Skyway should be extended to the Sports Complex. I do agree that a Bay Street overhead route might be harmful to future progress on that street. Her is my solution. Bring that section down to street level. Go down Bay Street and make a left on A Philip Randolph. Go between the Arena and the Baseball stadium and place a station in that corner of the fairgrounds property

Hello friend, sadly, the one major drawback of monorail is it doesn't allow for ANY at grade crossings. There is simply no way to get a car or a truck, even a pedestrian over this track even when sitting square on the ground. Take a good look at the photo above and you see how it overhangs the running rail on both sides. It "hugs" it's rail, and that hug could be as much as 2 feet wide on either side. So even if a roadway could be elevated to the top of the rail, you'll still have to deal with 2-3 foot wide running trenches on eachside penalty for falling in the crack? 440 volts of EXPOSED AC current! ZAP!


When we talk of the monorail being at ground level it will only work where there is NO CHANCE OF CROSSING IT, where it can be fenced, or where it can be controlled such as in a station.


People have so little concept of the power in those wires. Lakelander took a photo of a flexible contact lead that was simply huge (perhaps he'll post it). If you ever get the chance to tour a streetcar or monorail operations room and go into the transformer or switching room you'll never forget the electric air, the hum of the room, the hair on your arms, legs and head jumping up and standing on end. The smell of ozone. In the case of a power plant the turbines roar like a jet engine, and the entire building vibrates to their tune. If you like high horsepower autos, motorcycles, or machines of any kind, it will absolutely amaze you.


On the positive side, I don't think the Skyway has harmed the street-scape much on Bay where it currently runs. It is something of a novelty, as unique as EPCOT. There is also no reason why the stations have to look the same, or why they can't match the buildings around them. Without building all of that bridge structure and going with the economy of just the simple monorail beams, it will appear much smaller too. As for the sidewalk below, the beams give us a chance to canopy long segments of downtown sidewalk. A Teflon coated, washable canopy might even enhance the downtown street experience. Something else Lakelander and I discussed as we explored the system in the rain.

OCKLAWAHA

I feel like I am watching Mr Rogers!! Thats for the tour fellas! Good Stuff! Pretty cool man! All the extensions make sense! Even though Springfield isn't getting any love. The Eastline looks perfect! I didn't know they had such a high tech control room like that. All that stuff is in that little building across from the newspaper building? They plan to turn that building into a station? If so won't they have to build a new repair yard??

Quote from: vicupstate on October 17, 2008, 09:05:59 AM
The article makes a compelling argument.  I think a expansion to the stadium makes a lot of sense, but I think it would totally ruin the Bay Street corridor.  Could the line be moved onto the Shipyards property?  If it could not, I would suggest using a Beaver Street route to the the Stadium instead.   

OH NO!!! I don't like that! Tracks would be better on Bay Street.

On another note, what the heck is stopping them from letting vendors set up shop on some of the stations? Man that would be really really cool!!! A news/magazine stand, a coffee shop, hotdog-sausage guy, etc etc....Man you guys are really talking it up!!! Now more articles in TU & Folio would be great!!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 17, 2008, 07:53:24 PM
On the positive side, I don't think the Skyway has harmed the street-scape much on Bay where it currently runs. It is something of a novelty, as unique as EPCOT. There is also no reason why the stations have to look the same, or why they can't match the buildings around them. Without building all of that bridge structure and going with the economy of just the simple monorail beams, it will appear much smaller too. As for the sidewalk below, the beams give us a chance to canopy long segments of downtown sidewalk. A Teflon coated, washable canopy might even enhance the downtown street experience. Something else Lakelander and I discussed as we explored the system in the rain.[/color][/b]

Sounds like shaded side walks!!

Quote from: Coolyfett on October 19, 2008, 10:05:52 AM
I feel like I am watching Mr Rogers!! Thats for the tour fellas! Good Stuff! Pretty cool man! All the extensions make sense! Even though Springfield isn't getting any love. The Eastline looks perfect! I didn't know they had such a high tech control room like that. All that stuff is in that little building across from the newspaper building? They plan to turn that building into a station? If so won't they have to build a new repair yard??

The new station would be constructed next door to the O&M building.

Quote from: movedsouth on October 19, 2008, 07:16:53 PM

Can the current "Skyway" be extended using level track? Or is the technology limited to elevated tracks?

Lol, this has been addressed a dozen times in this thread and others. I'll respond now so our experts don't need to...

Skyway can be brought down lower to the ground, but it cannot have any at grade crossings. So, for visual or underpass/overpass purposes, it can be low or on the ground, but it would have to be shielded off from cars and definitely pedestrians.

Quote from: movedsouth on October 19, 2008, 07:16:53 PM
the key to an efficient urban transit system is as few transfers as possible. Expanding the skyway would be much better then adding "something else" (bus, streetcar, light rail).

I think the key is for transit to efficiently move people between high points of density and popular centralized destinations.  I can't think of one major city where transfers aren't required to get to various parts of the region.  As long as they are properly coordinated, transfers aren't a negative.  This is important, because the skyway is not set up to a regional wide transit system.   Its a downtown peoplemover.  The key element to its success is not extending it to Five Points, San Marco or the Stadium.  Its having a regional wide mass transit system that feeds riders into it. 

For example, Miami's Metromover attracts +30,000 riders a day because its connected to 94 miles of commuter and heavy rail, which directly connects downtown to the burbs and other inner city districts.

Couldn't an extension be funded through a special tax district like Jackson Square?

Yes, Alta, it CAN. In fact DART in Dallas with their 1.something BILLION dollar expansion is using this as part of the package. A google search for the Carolton or North Carolton DART station renderings will feed the skyway about 100 pounds of great ideas.

As for TRANSFERS (the other question) I agree with Lake, as a transit guy, mix and matrix is what makes a true great transit system. choice + choices + express + local + quality + green + headways + connections + connectivity + speed etc... It's not about not making the transfer, rather it's more about choosing which one you want to use, where you want to stop and your trip purpose. Example if your going to do a real wipe out on Christmas shopping and don't want to fight the parking lots at the mall. Let's say you live in Springfield and want to shop the Avenues:

TODAY: you catch JTA to Rosa Parks then head to the Avenues. 4 bus fares - correct change only - driver collects - bus runs every 40 minutes.

FUTURE:

you catch JTA to Rosa Parks - transfer to free Skyway to San Marco/Atlantic - transfer to commuter rail - off at Avenues Station - ride the free shuttle around the mall district. (*most scenic route)

or

you catch the Commuter Train at Liberty Street or Shands Station, transfer to the St. Augustine Line at Union Terminal - off at Avenues Station - ride the free shuttle around the mall district. (*by far the most room for packages or bikes)

or

you catch the streetcar and decide to go direct to Gateway and check it out first! Then ride it all the way to Union Terminal - from Gateway Mall - transfer at Union Terminal for the St. Augustine Commuter Rail - off at Avenues station - ride the free shuttle around the mall district. (* perhaps the more nostalgic and 2nd most room for packages - most fun)

or

JTA to Rosa Parks - Skyway to San Marco/Atlantic - Transfer to one of the San Jose/JTB/Avenues BRT TROLLEY BUS routes - off at Avenues  - ride the free shuttle around the mall district. (* not much room but fast and frequent - clean and silent.)

This is how it should work, oh and I left off the regular city bus and water-ferrys.  

OCKLAWAHA

We need to get rid of our city leadership.  They are so backwards on urban issues.

Quote from: alta on October 20, 2008, 01:16:32 AM
We need to get rid of our city leadership.  They are so backwards on urban issues.

If we do that, what will it matter? I think that our city leadership need to have better ideas on how to improve the city's urban core.

This has probably already been asked, but is there a mall area that is bikeable from Springfield?  And when I say mall area, really any kind of large scale shopping that has lots of different things to offer such as clothing, shoes, etc.  Then, maybe those outlying area malls aren't necessary to those living downtown.  I think better  public transportation is really important though, it just usually takes awhile to implement.  

Can you take a bike on the skyway?

Is there bus service from downtown to the beach?

michelle

The closet mall to Springfield is Gateway (www.gatewaytownctr.com (http://www.gatewaytownctr.com)).  Its not the Avenues, but you'll find stores that carry the basics.  You can get there by taking Main or Pearl, north to 44th Street.  Then head west on 44th until it dead ends at Gateway.  Its probably somewhere around a two mile trip.

QuoteCan you take a bike on the skyway?

I don't think so.

QuoteIs there bus service from downtown to the beach?

Yes.

QuoteCan you take a bike on the skyway?

Is there bus service from downtown to the beach?

michelle

Q-1 - I don't see why not. You CAN take a power chair, wheel chair, shopping cart or baby buggy onboard, they have special entry gates for these items that would work just fine for bikes too. Use the elevators to the boarding level and off you go. Since there are seats only on the ends of the cars, it shouldn't be a problem - though I think staying off at rush hour might be more user friendly.

Q-2 - Yes, 3 types really. You can ride the regular beach routes, or the newer beach flyers that use freeways (BH-50) and have limited stops. Lastly there is a regular MOTOR COACH service (not a bus) that JTA runs mornings and evenings that is really top shelf - Tour Bus Style - Beaches Express.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: jeh1980 on October 20, 2008, 02:59:42 AM

Quote from: alta on October 20, 2008, 01:16:32 AM
We need to get rid of our city leadership.  They are so backwards on urban issues.

If we do that, what will it matter? I think that our city leadership need to have better ideas on how to improve the city's urban core.

That's interesting. I think if enough of the LEADERS in office really wanted transit, transit would be in place already. Why would any of the leaders "naturally" want transit?

The LEADERS are the ones who wanted the Jaguars, of course any sports fan would approve but it took the Leaders wanting it for it to happen. Its been stated many times that Godbold was the "pusher" of the Skyway system. Whenever there is criticism for the Skyway we all look at Godbold and he "shrungs his shoulders" lol. The LEADERS have to want the Skyway to work for it to work. Pressure & promotion of the topic is going to help. Just swinging at JTA won't help I think city hall needs to take a few jabs as well. 

You are SO RIGHT, this time JTA is the hero of the hour and NOBODY IS WATCHING! The fact that it's never been finished, goes from no where to no where and they STILL manage to squeak out 2,000+ riders is mind numbing.

OCKLAWAHA

Talk it up!! Maybe Ock & Lake can drop MORE knowledge!! Just doing my part lol.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/jacksonville/255575-why-not-skyway.html

Quote from: michelle on October 20, 2008, 11:41:27 AM

Can you take a bike on the skyway?
michelle

No Michelle you can not currently take bikes on the Skyway. There are meetings to change this however. JTA is using the tried and true "Safety and Liability concerns" as the reason why they are not allowed. And as already pointed out by Ocklawaha you can take everything but bikes on.

QuoteNo Michelle you can not currently take bikes on the Skyway. There are meetings to change this however. JTA is using the tried and true "Safety and Liability concerns" as the reason why they are not allowed. And as already pointed out by Ocklawaha you can take everything but bikes on.

They really don't think people are going to peddle down the track do they? These type of rules are long ago outdated and need to be trashed - they are anti green and anti-transit.  

OCKLAWAHA

I thought they were allowed.  That is stupid.  Bikes are allowed on most transit systems.  There are restrictions which are mainly during peak operating hours.  This would only increase ridership on the Skyway. 

alta, this is something as a group we CAN take to JTA. I'll keep you posted.  

OCKLAWAHA

JTA can't claim that they won't allow bikes on the Skyway because of overcrowding.

Out of curiousity, is there an actual demand for taking bikes on the Skyway?

I only ask this, because the system is so small. Couldn't anyone already on a bicycle get from Kings Ave to FCCJ/Convention Center faster than the actual train! ;)

Joe, even if that is so, as the system expands; and sooner or later Darwin will catch Jacksonville, then we'll need to have bikes on all transit forms. Including the river taxis. As you probably know, most systems allow buses in without questions. In Dallas I rode an LRV all the way to Plano in the rush hour with a Tex-Mex man hugging his upright bike on the stairs. He got off at each station, out of the way, and resumed the position as soon as the bell rang. They're adding center cars to their trains because we were like Sandines in a can.  

OCKLAWAHA

Now that BRT is back, what would the Skyway cost if we took it to Shands and Gateway Mall via Davis and other close in routes maybe including I-95 (but keeping on the surface streets where people live as much as possible). A direct link from Rosa Parks could work, or a new branch could run past the new Courthouse site and on north. What would that cost next to BRT? Can we price it? Someone get us the miles. If so I think we present that data:

"WE GOT EM BY THE GIZMO!"

So if we built Skyway instead of the high dollar BRT, and used streetcar and BRT lite to reach more of the community - for about the same bucks could we do this?

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/JacksonvilleNorthtransitideas.png)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 20, 2008, 05:42:45 PM
You are SO RIGHT, this time JTA is the hero of the hour and NOBODY IS WATCHING! The fact that it's never been finished, goes from no where to no where and they STILL manage to squeak out 2,000+ riders is mind numbing.

Haha, good point. 

As always, great article guys.  Thanks for again inspiring discussion on this issue and others like it.  I would love to see the Skyway succeed, but I can't help but feel pessimistic.  It seems to me like we have a hodgepodge of things that don't really fit together.  As stated in the article, the Skyway was built with state-of-the-art technology that could handle the needs of a 20-, 40-, or 60-mile long system.  Yet that system was attached to a method of transit that, as Ock says, was never designed for longer distances and is a short-haul.  Why pair the two together?  And as Lake has been saying for the longest time, the problem is that the Skyway is designed as a feeder system, only there is no wider transit system feeding it.  So is expansion the best option?  I realize the monitoring system could probably be applied to any future transit system and some kind of monitoring was required.  I also agree that expanding the Skyway would likely increase ridership.  That said, while I think the peak ridership would spike with a stadium expansion of the Skyway, I don't think the average daily usage would increase too substantially - certainly not substantially enough for the average local taxpayer who doesn't live/work downtown to want to support it.

Skyway expansion would fit nicely with a wider mass transit system.  Due to budget conditions that look like they're going to stick around for a while, Jacksonville may only get the opportunity for one big transit project.  While it's certainly good to discuss all options, I don't see Skyway expansion as an top option to address citywide transit needs.  Bring on the commuter rail!

QuoteAs stated in the article, the Skyway was built with state-of-the-art technology that could handle the needs of a 20-, 40-, or 60-mile long system.  Yet that system was attached to a method of transit that, as Ock says, was never designed for longer distances and is a short-haul.  Why pair the two together?  And as Lake has been saying for the longest time, the problem is that the Skyway is designed as a feeder system, only there is no wider transit system feeding it.  So is expansion the best option?

(http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/selectron/VegasMonorail_BR_2.jpg)
New version of our Monorail by Bombardier... oh yes we can!

While it's true it was never designed as a regional type monorail, it could easily reach a much larger market by serving the city in the downtown "Squeeze". Ever notice how all the roads converge on the river in nearly the same narrow spot? The Skyway could use that as it's calling card and radiate out like a hub and spokes system. This way not only would/could it connect all of the major downtown venues - it also could be a logical transit connector. As various forms of rapid transit stretch out from the core, Commuter rail North, Southeast and Southwest; Light Rail East to the beaches; streetcar in the historic districts and downtown - with some Light Rail running as well. The Skyway becomes the "hover over all modes starfish of transit".

(http://www.panynj.gov/airtrainnewark/images/history.necrender.jpg)
How Atlantic at San Marco and the FEC "should look", according to the gospel of OCK.

Well, at least that's how I see it in my crystal ball.  

OCKLAWAHA

How long before the current Skyway cars are expected to need to be replaced?

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2008, 11:57:09 AM
The Skyway could use that as it's calling card and radiate out like a hub and spokes system.  

So which comes first, Skyway expansion or commuter rail/street car/light rail?  Ideally they would all be done together, but I don't know if local politicians have the vision or the desire to figure out a way to convince local taxpayers to fund more than one of these projects.  Realistically, how do you see this being achieved?  I don't know how much funding is available, but if Peyton was able to push through the Jacksonville Journey, maybe there's more wiggle room than I thought.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2008, 11:57:09 AM
How Atlantic at San Marco and the FEC "should look", according to the gospel of OCK.

You and your crystal ball...I would love to go to Atlantic at San Marco and see that someday.  Scratch that, I would love to take the train to Atlantic at San Marco someday :)

QuoteSo which comes first, Skyway expansion or commuter rail/street car/light rail?  Ideally they would all be done together, but I don't know if local politicians have the vision or the desire to figure out a way to convince local taxpayers to fund more than one of these projects.  Realistically, how do you see this being achieved?  I don't know how much funding is available, but if Peyton was able to push through the Jacksonville Journey, maybe there's more wiggle room than I thought.

The City could certainly kick it into high gear with a bit of push, but JTA is really in the drivers seat when it comes to attracting funding. FTA funds don't go by City as much as by project, so a single city can have (and often does) many projects in the process at once. Our BRT, Commuter Rail and Streetcar studies are all the pre-requirements for getting REAL DOLLARS from Washington. The Citys can often leverage land assets, work already done, and various other creative units to match the grants. I studied grantsmanship, and found that in a single small town Oklahoma Project, I was able to raise over 1 Million dollars within 5-6 months through a whole bunch of sources. OKDOT - New Signs, Logan County - co-op on pavement - Kingfisher County (yes our tiny town sat on the line) beautification - OK Natural Resources for a lake - USDI pond program, etc, etc... so it just amounts to how creative and energized your grants people are.

We have the opportunity for another venture as well, but I own it. I'm willing to swap going under contract to CITY or JTA for the rights, but it involves electric transit and alternate fuels, and a method where our transit could be PRE-PAID. But Mr. Blaylock has not called me back...

OCKLAWAHA

At this point, it looks like concrete material is one of the main things needed for skyway expansion.  Perhaps we can get a Mayor in need of a legacy project to get his family business to donate some concrete for public use?

Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2008, 12:53:20 PM
At this point, it looks like concrete material is one of the main things needed for skyway expansion.  Perhaps we can get a Mayor in need of a legacy project to get his family business to donate some concrete for public use?

do you have someone in mind Lake  ;)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2008, 12:45:48 PM
But Mr. Blaylock has not called me back...

Has JTA given any response/reaction to your plans?  It seems like there's been a noticeable shift in JTA's thinking, but I don't know if that's actually true.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2008, 12:53:20 PM
At this point, it looks like concrete material is one of the main things needed for skyway expansion.  Perhaps we can get a Mayor in need of a legacy project to get his family business to donate some concrete for public use?

Ladies and gentlemen, the John Peyton Skyway!

Here is another image, how about this Mr. Jones? Gateway Mall Future? Where Light Rail meets Skyway - meets Bus!

(http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/MassTransit/SRT-Hope.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

At this point, it looks like concrete material is one of the main things needed for skyway expansion.  Perhaps we can get a Mayor in need of a legacy project to get his family business to donate some concrete for public use?
[/quote]

Ladies and gentlemen, the John Peyton Skyway!
[/quote]
The John Peyton Skyway. That very funny. Very funny  ::).

While we are naming things, shouldn't we also have the "Peyton-Duval County Courthouse?" ;D

Superb article yes!  Then if ridership is low because of a quiet downtown (and high attendance events point to this fact as the skyway is busy during football season, special events in metro park, coliseum etc.), then it makes sense to expand it out to increase ridership and profit dollars.  Infrastructure is already in place relative to the operational support aspects (operations center, etc.) which is high tech and has or is paying for itself and the skyway in a sense.  We can't rely on hoping that a busy downtown will one day sprout up and then the skyway is a success.  We must plan prudently and smartly to expand it and market/promote it metro wide in order to increase ridership and support profit increase.

Heights Unknown

I was in Jacksonville Monday for a funeral, Got on the Skyway and they had a new brochure effective Sept 2008.

The expansion down Bay Street needs to happen!!! Wow how could they miss all those spots. Just looking at the map now I see perfect locations for 3 stations

1. Main Street & Bay - Main Street Station - access to The Landing, The Florida Theater, The Yates Building, Suntrust, BOA Tower, Modis Building & Jacksonville Regional Chamber of Commerce.

2. Market & Bay - Riverfront Station - access to Court House Annex, County Courthouse, Hyatt Regency Hotel, Berkman Plazas & Police Memorial Building

3 Marsh & Bay - Shipyard Station - access to just Maxwell House right now.

Further east would put the Skyway right in the Sports Complex.

I really can't figure out why they would leave this section off, but build to the King Avenue Station. # 1 & 2 are way more important then what they are building at Kings Avenue Station. They need to finish it!

More skyway talk:

I overheard an interesting converstation on the Skyway during the Jazz Fest.  A group of suburbanites saying the following:

- Although they had lived in Jax for a few years, it was the first time they had used the Skyway.

- "I would ride it to work, if it went somewhere." This guy mentioned he worked at Fidelity on Riverside Avenue.

- It loses money because JTA gave up on it.  If anything they should at least extend it to the stadium.

- A constant apples to apples comparison with St. Louis light rail, Chicago's El and NYC's Subway.

I wonder if this is the general outlook towards the skyway in Jacksonville?

Quote from: thelakelander on May 25, 2009, 01:41:37 PM
More skyway talk:

I overheard an interesting converstation on the Skyway during the Jazz Fest.  A group of suburbanites saying the following:

- Although they had lived in Jax for a few years, it was the first time they had used the Skyway.

- "I would ride it to work, if it went somewhere." This guy mentioned he worked at Fidelity on Riverside Avenue.

- It loses money because JTA gave up on it.  If anything they should at least extend it to the stadium.

- A constant apples to apples comparison with St. Louis light rail, Chicago's El and NYC's Subway.

I wonder if this is the general outlook towards the skyway in Jacksonville?

Yes...
From a suburbanite.

Although it wasn't my first time on the skyway, (it was my first time to wait in line) there really is no reason to use it coming from a suburban area. If I have to drive 25 miles to a station, I might as well drive the .3 to my destination.

Of course it is Lake!  Haven't we been arguing for a couple years now that everyone wishes it connected the people with the destinations instead of just destination to parking garage.  I live in Springfield and so many of my neighbors work downtown, Riverside or on the Southbank.  Everyone of them in past conversations have said they would love to ride it to work everyday if they could.  We all would have taken it to Jazz Fest this past weekend if there was a station that came a little farther into Springfield.  As it is now, we drove because with the possibility of rain the 1 mile walk to Rosa Parks didn't sound like a good idea.  We would take it to RAM any day over driving, but we are forced to drive.  The "We would have..." examples are endless but as it sits now there is no access to where people live and other high volume destinations.

I rode it as well Sunday, and yes, I heard some crazytalk myself.  The problem is that the average person in Jacksonville doesn't understand two things:

1. Not a single mass transit system in America turns a profit.
2.  It is not practical to run the skyway to Normandy, the Avenues, or the Airport.

Last but certainly not least, the DAMN thing DOESN'T cost $90 Million a mile. To expand it would be somewhere close to a quality LRT system.

Also as a Monorail, we could use it's elevation to clear the downtown streets of many transit and private vehicles. All it needs is a link in San Marco with Amtrak Corridor Service on the FEC RR.

To the east it SHOULD go to the Stadium or at least Randolph, where it ought to connect with streetcars for Gateway Plaza and bus service into Arlington, Atlantic Blvd and Arlington Expressway. Planting another JTA parking garage at a new garage exit at the foot of the Matthews and Hart, (ONE WE COULD GET TO WITHOUT FLYING OVER A FREEWAY RAILING) Inbound Commuters could really use it.

North into Springfield perhaps above and west of Hogans Creek to Shands, and into Riverside to BCBS and Fidelity.

Plug this in to a new downtown FREE PARKING program for merchants, with time restriction. Transfer the parking meter fees to the garages throughout downtown using audited meter income block by block to make it fair. Garages with a much heavier use, next to former meter spots that were heavy sould pay more per month then the lost garage on the Southbank (for example). Consider this as a congestion pricing fee + 15% a month for Skyway and Streetcar.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: adamh0903 on May 25, 2009, 03:13:08 PM
Although it wasn't my first time on the skyway, (it was my first time to wait in line) there really is no reason to use it coming from a suburban area. If I have to drive 25 miles to a station, I might as well drive the .3 to my destination.

I really don't want to rehash all my objections again to the $ky-high-way here.  One can go read any of about a dozen or more threads on this boondoggle elsewhere to see all sides to this debate.

But, for expediency, I would like to emphasize the the point made in the quote above is exactly one I have made.  The proponents just don't want to hear this.

I will also add that the constant harping about the $ky-high-way not connecting the proper dots is for several reasons, the least of which is, due to it monster size and street killing abilities, you can't just take it anywhere and into any neighborhood.  As such, it isn't the BEST OPTION for connecting this city.  Financially, the proponents think they can have this and all the other mass transit options and don't see the political and financial trade-offs that make this dream most unlikely.  $ky-high-way proponents aren't interested in picking the very best options to the $ky-high-way and making those the future.  The also want to salvage this admitted pork barrel wreck at any expense claiming that our existing investment makes it qualify as one of the better options.  I and lot of others aren't buying it.  Let the discussion continue.....

Quote from: adamh0903 on May 25, 2009, 03:13:08 PM
Although it wasn't my first time on the skyway, (it was my first time to wait in line) there really is no reason to use it coming from a suburban area. If I have to drive 25 miles to a station, I might as well drive the .3 to my destination.

Quote from: stjr on May 26, 2009, 12:26:43 AM
But, for expediency, I would like to emphasize the the point made in the quote above is exactly one I have made.  The proponents just don't want to hear this.

Which is exactly what it's designed to do, it's a downtown "people mover" and NOT regional mass transit. The two cities that actually finished theirs have great ridership... But then they go somewhere. With us, if your not living by Hemming Plaza and traveling to the Omni, or Ruth's Chris, your SOL.

Quote from: stjr on May 26, 2009, 12:26:43 AM
I will also add that the constant harping about the $ky-high-way not connecting the proper dots is for several reasons, the least of which is, due to it monster size and street killing abilities, you can't just take it anywhere and into any neighborhood.  As such, it isn't the BEST OPTION for connecting this city.  Financially, the proponents think they can have this and all the other mass transit options and don't see the political and financial trade-offs that make this dream most unlikely.  $ky-high-way proponents aren't interested in picking the very best options to the $ky-high-way and making those the future.  The also want to salvage this admitted pork barrel wreck at any expense claiming that our existing investment makes it qualify as one of the better options.  I and lot of others aren't buying it.  Let the discussion continue.....

Monster size? No, the expanded sections should be as thin and sleek as the Walt Disney system, in fact based on some track adjustment, two trains per line Stadium-Atlantic Av San Marco, and Springfield - Jacksonville Terminal, a Riverside Line could duck in and out of Central Station between trains. This would equal 5 working trains daily, and the extensions could be single track.

Monorails are not street killers as they should be above the street.

Now is the time to finish it using our previous investment as leverage on Federal Stimulus money. Frankly like it or not, even hate it if you will, but THAT MONEY is going to be spent on a host of Transit projects, and I'd rather they be ours instead of Daytons, Orlandos, Fresno's, or Milwaukee's.  


OCKLAWAHA
The ORIGINAL Nemesis of the Skyway.

[/quote]

Quote from: adamh0903 on May 25, 2009, 03:13:08 PM
. If I have to drive 25 miles to a station, I might as well drive the .3 to my destination.

I used to drive from Flemming Island to the Convention Center, hop on the sky way and ride to Hemming Plaza to go to work at Ed Ball building. Reason, cost. Skyway was about $27a month and the preferred parking solution for my employer.

On a side note since I had to take the skyway if it ever broke down all I had to say to my boss was the skyway froze with us on it.....that worked out a handful of times that a group was late from lunch....Blame the Skyway.

Quote from: CrysG on May 26, 2009, 08:18:30 AM
On a side note since I had to take the skyway if it ever broke down all I had to say to my boss was the skyway froze with us on it.....that worked out a handful of times that a group was late from lunch....Blame the Skyway.

I love that one man, reminds me of working the USPS trucks in OKC. I lived about as far from town as you, in a little prairie community. Anytime I was late I'd tell our dumbass boss it was that darn morning freight train. ALWAYS WORKED! The stupid boss didn't know the railroad to our little town (joint Rock Island and Santa Fe) had been abandoned in 1932! This guy didn't even know the Rock Island had vanished in the early 1980's. They don't teach history anymore! LOL!  I guess my discription of it was enough to sell it to them.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on May 26, 2009, 12:26:43 AM

Quote from: adamh0903 on May 25, 2009, 03:13:08 PM
Although it wasn't my first time on the skyway, (it was my first time to wait in line) there really is no reason to use it coming from a suburban area. If I have to drive 25 miles to a station, I might as well drive the .3 to my destination.

I really don't want to rehash all my objections again to the $ky-high-way here.  One can go read any of about a dozen or more threads on this boondoggle elsewhere to see all sides to this debate.

But, for expediency, I would like to emphasize the the point made in the quote above is exactly one I have made.  The proponents just don't want to hear this.

I am a proponent, and I completely agree with the above.  I think some of your points are valid, but some are with the implementation, not the technology.  I'm still not sure why JTA built a roadway, then put a beam down the center of it, after they switched to the Monorail technology in 1994.  At that point, the only section that was built was from Central to Convention Center.  If they did it Disney Style, it would have been far cheaper.  This decision to me rests squarely on JTA's shoulders.  I also don't agree with an expansion without at least one rail based transit mode extending to the suburbs.  Once that happens, then I would endorse it.

QuoteI also don't agree with an expansion without at least one rail based transit mode extending to the suburbs.  Once that happens, then I would endorse it.

I've learned through discussion's on MetroJacksonville that the skyway is not the solution for long haul commuter traffic to & from the suburbs and that light-rail is the solution. However, I would still like to see some extensions added immediately.

The maintenance hub for the skyway  is in Riverside / Brooklyn. It's literally 1.5 miles to Fidelity or 5 points giving an option to the Riverside / Avondale neighborhood's. Many people who live in the neighborhood’s work & play downtown and imo would give an immediate boost to the daily rider number’s.

I would also like to see a stadium extension added because it’s easily the most requested stop. Jacksonvillian’s have been pining over this for years and if built they would obviously take advantage of the service. Even if only 10K people used it for Jag’s games alone it would increase ridership by 100K for the year. Charge more on game day and pay for the extension with the immediate revenue.

Quote from: Shwaz on May 26, 2009, 10:41:46 AM

Quote
Even if only 10K people used it for Jag’s games alone it would increase ridership by 100K for the year. Charge more on game day and pay for the extension with the immediate revenue.

That is what they do in Boston for Patriots game. You can take the rail out to Foxborough, but it is a flat fee of $20 or $25, not the standard fare.

^$20 a person?

Quotehat is what they do in Boston for Patriots game. You can take the rail out to Foxborough, but it is a flat fee of $20 or $25, not the standard fare.

That would be a little too steep for the skyway maybe more like $7 which is currently the JTA shuttle cost from the downtown lot's.

The JTA service from the burb's is only $12.

Lake / Ock was there ever an estimated cost for the stadium extension or is it just a cost per mile equation?

Hell they could probably get away with $5 gameday round trips to and from the stadium/sportsplex on that propsed extension.  People'd use it 'cause it'd be cheaper than parking in the $10 and $20 lots around the stadium area.  I'd do it!

I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

QuoteLimousines would be cheaper than the Skyway

The Florida Times-Union - Monday, January 6, 1997
Author: Ronald L. Littlepage, Times-Union columnist

No, you are not dreaming.

Yes, it is a nightmare.

The folks at the "we screwed up the roadways and the bus system, what can we do next?" Jacksonville Transportation Authority are making their plans for 1998.

At the top of the list is dumping more money down the rathole -- my apologies to rats everywhere -- popularly known as the Automated Riderless Express.

Never mind that most of the time the cars of the little train that couldn't, when it happens to be running, go back and forth empty.

Never mind that when the 2.5mile system is finally completed late this year, the official price tag will be $185 million of taxpayer money.

Go ahead and figure it out. That comes to almost $75 million per mile.

As has been pointed out before, it would have been cheaper to hire chauffeured limousines to carry the few people who ride the Skyway to their destinations.

From the beginning, the silly train has been billed as a "demonstration project," which is how the JTA got the federal government to ante up a pile of money so that people in places like Wyoming would help us folks in Jacksonville pay for the thing.

Now that the "demonstration" has proven to be a flop, you'd think that would be the end of it.

No.

The JTA is seriously considering further demonstrating its ability to screw up by spending $85 million more to extend the Skyway to Alltel Stadium .

This will get interesting.

Mayor John Delaney, who has appointed some of his buddies to the JTA board, prides himself on fulfilling campaign promises.

Some of us remember what he said about the Skyway when he was running for office in 1995.

He called it a "disaster" and a "turkey." His campaign literature said, "We're through building the people mover." He pledged not to put any more local money into the project.

Because the opposition of a mayor, particularly a popular one like Delaney, would likely end any talk of extending the Skyway , the question becomes: Will Delaney stick by his promises or will he undergo a conversion at the altar of the Skyway as his predecessor did once he was in office?

The JTA is pushing the Skyway extension to Alltel Stadium as a way to get fans to Jaguar games and as a shuttle for downtown workers, who the JTA hopes to entice to park there during the week.

Forget it.

For three years now, we've proven that fans can get to Jaguar games quite nicely, thank you.

As far as downtown workers, $85 million would hire a lot of limousine drivers.

Gee. Shuttle buses would be even cheaper.

I do believe a study would be needed for extending the skyway to the stadium.  If its ever done, a new plan should not include the overbuilding the structure and it should be dropped down to grade level, where possible (ex. between Marsh Street and A. Philip Randolph), to reduce costs.

^Agreed.

Also, I think a better case for a skyway extension could be made depending on what happens with the Shipyards.  I can't make the case for it now with the fact that you have to drive downtown to get it.  I only see it used for about 10 events a year right now.

I know some hasve suggessted it for the arena/ballpark stuff, but parking and traffic is not really a hassle for these.

QuoteI found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

This article is from 1997 and I thought in recent discussion's there were lower estimates and amusement park / private companies that offered bid's for cheaper extensions.

Add Shipyards, Convention center and Bay street town center to Stadium, Met Park, Wolfson Park,the Jacksonville Arena, Maxwell house, Police building, Hyatt,  Berkman I and  II   and they could come together to make this a useful extension.

Quote from: Shwaz on May 26, 2009, 12:25:27 PM

QuoteI found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

This article is from 1997 and I thought in recent discussion's there were lower estimates and amusement park / private companies that offered bid's for cheaper extensions.

This is why the idea would have to undergo a study before moving forward.  All we've had on site is "discussions."  To my knowledge, there have been no official bids sent to JTA to extend the skyway to the stadium this millennium. 

Quote from: thelakelander on May 26, 2009, 11:49:06 AM
I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

I'm almost positive that he made that up. He just took the $75 million per/mile figure and extrapolated it outward by the 1.1-1.2 miles necessary to reach the arena district.

Of course, this totally ignores the fact that the skyway's pricetag included the extremely expensive bridge crossing, the automated control center, the repair building, the re-build of the intial leg, the total over-engineering of the system, etc. etc. etc.

As Oklawaha and other's have pointed out, you could theoretically extend the skyway for as little as $15 million per mile, which is cheaper than most road widenings.

That being said, I really go back and forth on my opinion of the skyway. On one hand, I sometimes think that it would be a huge success if it only went somewhere (like San Marco, Riverside Ave, and the Stadium). On the other hand, I often feel like the technology is so medicore that the skyway couldn't even really cope with the high demand anyway. The system often feels overburdened the few times there is high demand during special events.

Keep in mind that the vehicles and all stations are designed to have two cars (I think it's two) in between the front and back cars now.

The main issue with the stations is the god awful turnstiles.  Most cities have addressed this through the use of transit cards of some sorts.  Not really practical in Jacksonville unless we connect it to something.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 26, 2009, 11:26:09 AM
^$20 a person?

I believe so. According to Wikipedia it is a freight line owned by CSX, and is only a commuter stop in Foxboro when used for Gillette Stadium events. From what I found on forums online, people said it is a bargain since parking will run upwards to $45 a game. I guess it just depends on how many people are in the car as to whether it is worth it.

This obviously would be high for here, but it shows charging a fee for a game day line is done elsewhere.

Quote from: Joe on May 26, 2009, 01:10:02 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 26, 2009, 11:49:06 AM
I found an old Ron Littlepage article that mentioned the cost would be $85 million, which is steep for a mile long extension.

I'm almost positive that he made that up. He just took the $75 million per/mile figure and extrapolated it outward by the 1.1-1.2 miles necessary to reach the arena district.

Of course, this totally ignores the fact that the skyway's pricetag included the extremely expensive bridge crossing, the automated control center, the repair building, the re-build of the intial leg, the total over-engineering of the system, etc. etc. etc.

As Oklawaha and other's have pointed out, you could theoretically extend the skyway for as little as $15 million per mile, which is cheaper than most road widenings.

That being said, I really go back and forth on my opinion of the skyway. On one hand, I sometimes think that it would be a huge success if it only went somewhere (like San Marco, Riverside Ave, and the Stadium). On the other hand, I often feel like the technology is so medicore that the skyway couldn't even really cope with the high demand anyway. The system often feels overburdened the few times there is high demand during special events.

I agree, but you would still need a study and a solid price estimate before breaking ground.

Quote from: Lucasjj on May 26, 2009, 01:13:39 PMThis obviously would be high for here, but it shows chariging a fee for a game day line is done elsewhere.

Its a good example and it would be a great way to generate extra income to reduce O&M costs.

QuoteThis is why the idea would have to undergo a study before moving forward.

Makes sense.

At $20 a person, I'll just pile a few family and friends in the car and pay the $25 to $30 parking fees near the stadium or walk for 30 minutes from a cheaper lot (i.e. that comes to $20 an hour for a short walk and a little exercise!).  Besides, what's wrong with the buses JTA has been running for 70% less!  Maybe a few more parking garages at the stadium/arena area would be a far more efficient use of investment capital than the $ky-high-way.  That, too, needs study.  We could connect them to Downtown for week day use with a street car line for a lot less hassle and costs with better results.

Even at $15 million a mile (A very speculative and probably unrealistically low number - heck, we will pay the consultants that much before even bidding the damn thing   :D ) and 10,000 riders a game (I doubt this could even be handled by the $ky-high-way in a 30 to 60 minute pregame or postgame crowd crunch), by the time you deduct maintenance and operations, it likely will just ramp up the current losses.  Don't forget, the support columns may wipe out a full lane of traffic to and from the stadium.  I am sure Wayne would love that "improvement".  And, the required "intersection" with the Hart Bridge ramps needs to be engineered as well as crossing Hogan's Creek.

Lastly, the question that $ky-high-way proponents continue to miss:  How does the greater Jax community benefit from this football fan fantasy ride?  Good luck selling it at the ballot box.

the problem with the JTA buses is that they aren't allowed to run them anymore...you can thank GWB and his administration for changing the rules such that public companies must let private suppliers offer the service first (at whatever cost they deem necessary).

Yes, I read that.  I wonder if that's what they are telling the mass transit TRAINS, STREETCARS, FERRIES, etc. in other cities that run game day shuttles?  What a joke.  Of course, I wonder if it would be cheaper with a private company.  I guess we may find out soon.  Maybe BO will revise the rule as part of supporting mass transit agencies.

P.S.  Another possible cost of the $ky-high-way is moving utilities (water, sewer, storm water, electric, gas, phone, fiber, etc. that interfere with column and station placements).  This, alone, could run into millions per Downtown mile.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2009, 06:28:49 PM
the problem with the JTA buses is that they aren't allowed to run them anymore...you can thank GWB and his administration for changing the rules such that public companies must let private suppliers offer the service first (at whatever cost they deem necessary).

thats sort of changed

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=7885

I would like to see the skyway extended to some of these places as well.  In a previous life I parked at Prime Osborne and rode the Skyway - tickets were included in the parking price.  I currently walk about 4 blocks to work, because I would have to back track to get to the Rosa Parks Station. 

If the FBC parking garage between Julia and Hogan was opened to the public and an elevated walkway built across Union Street to the Rosa Parks Platform that would make it very easy to ride the skyway to the government center. 

If that's not an option, i.e. if FBC is not agreeable, perhaps a city-owned garage built between Union and State with coffee shop, visitors center, etc. on the ground floor. 

It might not make a huge difference today, but when the courthouse is completed, all the court staff, public defender, state attorney, and law offices will move to this area and ridership could really increase.  Jurors for county and federal court could also be encouraged to use it.   

Quote from: civil42806 on May 26, 2009, 08:03:34 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2009, 06:28:49 PM
the problem with the JTA buses is that they aren't allowed to run them anymore...you can thank GWB and his administration for changing the rules such that public companies must let private suppliers offer the service first (at whatever cost they deem necessary).

thats sort of changed

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=7885

glad to see...maybe no private companies were interested

(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/jac-crossover-switch.jpg)

Quote from: stjr on May 26, 2009, 06:13:34 PM
At $20 a person, I'll just pile a few family and friends in the car and pay the $25 to $30 parking fees near the stadium or walk for 30 minutes from a cheaper lot (i.e. that comes to $20 an hour for a short walk and a little exercise!).  Besides, what's wrong with the buses JTA has been running for 70% less!  Maybe a few more parking garages at the stadium/arena area would be a far more efficient use of investment capital than the $ky-high-way.  That, too, needs study.  We could connect them to Downtown for week day use with a street car line for a lot less hassle and costs with better results.

Even at $15 million a mile (A very speculative and probably unrealistically low number - heck, we will pay the consultants that much before even bidding the damn thing   :D ) and 10,000 riders a game (I doubt this could even be handled by the $ky-high-way in a 30 to 60 minute pregame or postgame crowd crunch), by the time you deduct maintenance and operations, it likely will just ramp up the current losses.  Don't forget, the support columns may wipe out a full lane of traffic to and from the stadium.  I am sure Wayne would love that "improvement".  And, the required "intersection" with the Hart Bridge ramps needs to be engineered as well as crossing Hogan's Creek.

Lastly, the question that $ky-high-way proponents continue to miss:  How does the greater Jax community benefit from this football fan fantasy ride?  Good luck selling it at the ballot box.

Stjr, jump on "The Monorail Society" and check out the systems offered, look into the amusement park builders and check their prices (they built the Disney system, busiest Monorail in the World). Look up the subject of Monorail vs LRT, while I don't agree with 100% of it there is enough there to open some wide holes in the anti-Skyway argument.
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/MonoVs.html

I personally had a builder of concrete beam Monorails call me and nearly choke on the $30 Million a mile number I tossed out, to paraphrase him: "Robert that kind of number from these rail builders make me angry..."

$10 bucks per game, 10 times a year, and 10,000 riders per game, next come up with a number, certainly more modest for commuters daily: perhaps 2,000, next add in the income from the Baseball Grounds, Arena, Fair Grounds, Metropolitan Park, The Kids Corner or the budding Randolph restoration district. I believe this 1.5 mile extension would more then triple the annual ridership and with $10 (Football) or $5 (other) venue fares it would increase the income many times over.

Won't handle the traffic? I have talked with Bombardier and our own in house planner at JTA. The system is designed (with the unordered center cars) to handle 30,000 Passengers Per Direction Per Hour PPDPH. Certainly not a stadium full, but darn near 1/2 a stadium, with others arriving on bus shuttles or by car. Hey the rest of us can even wave to you as we watch you creep along Bay Street to the game... Don't worry, we'll hold your seat.

(https://www.royalcoachbuses.com/cw3/assets/product_full/P-12.JPG)

The bus rule HAS NOT CHANGED and it didn't come from GW. It was a court ruling not unlike another back in the 1970's that killed the JTA charter business. Back then schools could charter JTA to take the kids to the Cape or St. Augustine field trips. Same deal here, there are thousands of bus operators out there and we have a couple of heavy weights here in town. Expect JTA will lose this business after this year, they asked for and got a temporary deal for this year, but I doubt it will last. Yes the privates are interested, 3 or 4 are on record already. I'd cheer for Annett, in my opinion the best of the best. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/1020/annett/index.html

(http://z.about.com/d/goflorida/1/5/3/I/tampa_streetcars.JPG)
The old TECO slogan said it all, "Always A Car In Sight".

As for Streetcars, or Sky Cables, since they run on very close headways the order would exempt them as they would NOT be running charters, just regular schedules.  

OCKLAWAHA

(http://www.monorails.org/webpix%202/LVO23.jpg)

Compare this track view in Las Vegas with our overbuilt mess. Let's bust it out and get it done, stretching both dollars and track. Also note how the station is CONNECTED to the building and garage.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote$10 bucks per game, 10 times a year, and 10,000 riders per game, next come up with a number, certainly more modest for commuters daily: perhaps 2,000, next add in the income from the Baseball Grounds, Arena, Fair Grounds, Metropolitan Park, The Kids Corner or the budding Randolph restoration district. I believe this 1.5 mile extension would more then triple the annual ridership and with $10 (Football) or $5 (other) venue fares it would increase the income many times over.

Ock, I won't dismiss all your valiant efforts to support the continuation of the $ky-high-way because THEORETICALLY you may have some points.  However, I don't think they can survive REALITY.  Let's take the above estimates.  For $5 for an entire car, I can find lots of parking for the "other venues", so why would I pay that PER PERSON to take the City's amusement ride.  And, where will I park to get on it - in another lot charging $5.  There is ample parking for all events at the Arena/Sports complex except for the Jags, Florida/Georgia, or other sold out stadium events.  For those events, at about $25 for a car, I think I can find plenty of parking in decent walking distance.  For $7 a person, I can ride the current bus arrangement from the greater downtown stops with little hassle.  Why do we need another solution to the present arrangements that work fine?

As to 2,000 daily commuters for the extension, the ENTIRE system doesn't get that many riders with the last number discussed being 1,700 riders.  Why would this leg add that many during a weekday?  Keep in mind the over 90% traffic estimate misses by the "experts" on the EXISTING COMPLETED line.

Here is another question:  If you expand the system with the monorail configuration you advocate, is it compatible with the existing rail?  Or, do we need to rebuild the entire system over?  Also, are the cost estimates you keep proposing comparable situations to ours?  i.e. built through developed downtowns with lots of cross streets, sidewalks, close-in buildings, underground utilities, existing traffic lanes, rivers, highway overpasses, etc.?

Quote from: thelakelander on May 25, 2009, 01:41:37 PM
More skyway talk:

I overheard an interesting converstation on the Skyway during the Jazz Fest.  A group of suburbanites saying the following:

- Although they had lived in Jax for a few years, it was the first time they had used the Skyway.

- "I would ride it to work, if it went somewhere." This guy mentioned he worked at Fidelity on Riverside Avenue.

- It loses money because JTA gave up on it.  If anything they should at least extend it to the stadium.

- A constant apples to apples comparison with St. Louis light rail, Chicago's El and NYC's Subway.

I wonder if this is the general outlook towards the skyway in Jacksonville?

Man. Lake I used to say the same thing when I first got on this site, a lot of people from Jacksonville have never rode it. That would Change if Riverside, Springfield & San Marco Square had stations. Im telling you man. Jta should do it for those neighborhoods. As far as the Sports Complex, thats a no brainer. They need to finish the Skyway and then work out deals with the surrounding land with developers. No more SJTCs off of JTB, when you have that land by Jefferson Station waiting for something. The just need to finish it. Stop thinking small, and finish it.

Quote from: brainstormer on May 25, 2009, 03:47:03 PM
Of course it is Lake!  Haven't we been arguing for a couple years now that everyone wishes it connected the people with the destinations instead of just destination to parking garage.  I live in Springfield and so many of my neighbors work downtown, Riverside or on the Southbank.  Everyone of them in past conversations have said they would love to ride it to work everyday if they could.  We all would have taken it to Jazz Fest this past weekend if there was a station that came a little farther into Springfield.  As it is now, we drove because with the possibility of rain the 1 mile walk to Rosa Parks didn't sound like a good idea.  We would take it to RAM any day over driving, but we are forced to drive.  The "We would have..." examples are endless but as it sits now there is no access to where people live and other high volume destinations.

This is very true, I was never even interested in the Skyway until I started driving cabs, being that I lived in Riverside, I would catch fares from the area, many riverside residents went to San Marco, Downtown or Springfield a lot, I mean I would just do circles of those  4 areas during both rush hours. I never used the Fuller Warren, the Main Street and Acosta was the quickest way in and out of those spots, my fares would always say that "The Jta train needs to go here or there" Thats what got me curious in it in the first place. The last station was built in 2000, my first time riding it was 2007, so there you go.

QuoteFor $5 for an entire car, I can find lots of parking for the "other venues", so why would I pay that PER PERSON to take the City's amusement ride.  And, where will I park to get on it - in another lot charging $5.  There is ample parking for all events at the Arena/Sports complex except for the Jags, Florida/Georgia, or other sold out stadium events.  For those events, at about $25 for a car, I think I can find plenty of parking in decent walking distance.  For $7 a person, I can ride the current bus arrangement from the greater downtown stops with little hassle.  Why do we need another solution to the present arrangements that work fine?

There aren't many events that you can pay only $5... and not everybody going to the Jags games has a full car.

Say you park in the garages next to the arena for only $5 -  have you ever sat in traffic leaving those? If you're not lucky enough to be parked on the ground level I hope you packed a sandwich.

Personally I go to the Jag's games with just my dad, we park downtown (for free) and walk the 1.5-2 miles over for free. I would gladly pay $5 for the skyway vs. walking over in summer heat or pay $25-$30 to park .5 -1 mile away and be stuck in traffic after the game. I have had a parking pass a few times for the games and found I can walk back to my spot on Liberty and get home much sooner than parking at the stadium.

Even where I park for free around Liberty St. there are $10-$15 all around me. The lot's are for getting there early and tailgating not so much just a "parking spot." 

My thoughts - a Sports Complex extension would not generate riders for events in the Sports Complex, EXCEPT for Stadium events, as stated above.  I love the Skyway, and I wouldn't use it for a Suns Game or a concert, but I'd consider it for a Jaguar game.  However, this is 10 games a year, plus FL-GA, Gator Bowl, Monster Truck Rally, and let's throw in even two more random games.  This is 15 days a year.  I don't know if I can justify it for this.

This is why I think that the Shipyards discussion has to play into this somehow.  I think with something at the Shipyards that could potentially draw people, then it could be in the discusion.  Without that, I'm not sure that I can.

I wonder if the bars on Bay Street, Hyatt, Kids Kampus or Metropolitan Park would generate riders?  Anyway, I do agree that any talk of extending the skyway to the stadium will rely heavily on what goes up on the Shipyards site and takes the place of the county courthouse.

Quote from: Steve on May 27, 2009, 10:59:46 AM
My thoughts - a Sports Complex extension would not generate riders for events in the Sports Complex, EXCEPT for Stadium events, as stated above.

Let's not forget that we also have baseball games at the Baseball Grounds, concerts at the Veterans Memorial Arena, and (possibly) improvements to Kids Kampus that may bring new visitors to Metro Park. I think the hope is that by extending transportation to the sports complex, it would also generate additional development in the area. Many other cities have a lot of development surrounding these types of venues (see http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-mar-salvaging-the-big-idea-i-kids-kampus-flex-space). We should take advantage of all that opportunity.

I agree, it is all a part of it.  However, the most that the suns have ever gotten is 13,000.  The existing roads and parking handle that no problem.  Parking costs $5 a car.  I live in Orange Park (not really, just go with the example).  Why would I drive 20 miles to Kings Avenue or the Convention Center, to then use the Skyway?  My guess is that JTA would not give their parking away, so the cost to park plus Skyway fare would probably work out to close to the $5.

A lot of people attending the weekday games work downtown and head over straight from the office. I'm sure all most all of them would rather leave their car behing and travel with their group via skyway. I don't think it would be the same inflated charge like for the Jag's games... maybe $1 each way.

And:  15 events per year, plus the marginal numbers from the downtown-work crowd riding it over to the Baseball grounds, would mean *way* higher ridership numbers-per-year than what we've got now. 

I think we're starting to split the hairs too finely here.  The bottom line is ridership numbers, yes?  All of these implementations/wishful-thinking extensions will push that figure $ky-high, as stjr likes to say.  ;)

Quote from: Doctor_K on May 27, 2009, 01:28:10 PM
And:  15 events per year, plus the marginal numbers from the downtown-work crowd riding it over to the Baseball grounds, would mean *way* higher ridership numbers-per-year than what we've got now. 

I think we're starting to split the hairs too finely here.  The bottom line is ridership numbers, yes?  All of these implementations/wishful-thinking extensions will push that figure $ky-high, as stjr likes to say.  ;)

Exactly.

At 1700 riders per day / 620K per year @ .50 = $310,250
Jag's games estimate 100K fares per season @ $5 = $500,000

That seems to be a $ky-high increase in revenue too

Quote from: Steve on May 27, 2009, 01:13:51 PM
I agree, it is all a part of it.  However, the most that the suns have ever gotten is 13,000.  The existing roads and parking handle that no problem.  Parking costs $5 a car.  I live in Orange Park (not really, just go with the example).  Why would I drive 20 miles to Kings Avenue or the Convention Center, to then use the Skyway?  My guess is that JTA would not give their parking away, so the cost to park plus Skyway fare would probably work out to close to the $5.

That's what some people do with the Jags games currently. They load the buses at Kings Avenue and the Convention Center. If the skyway were to be extended to the stadium people would use it. I'd use it for sun's games as well. 

Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2009, 11:11:17 AM
I wonder if the bars on Bay Street, Hyatt, Kids Kampus or Metropolitan Park would generate riders?  Anyway, I do agree that any talk of extending the skyway to the stadium will rely heavily on what goes up on the Shipyards site and takes the place of the county courthouse.

Hyatt I am not so sure about, but the Riverfront District and Metro Park would get riders, Id also include the Friday Night and Saturday Night Suns games as well. Most Friday and Saturday night games were over 7000 in attendance, I never been on Thursday beer night, but was told it gets packed like Fri-Sat games. I don't know much about the Kid Kampus thing as far as night riders. East leg would connect Riverfront Distrist with Hemming Plaza and The Landing easily, they really should look into finishing that East Line.

Quote from: Steve on May 27, 2009, 01:13:51 PM
I agree, it is all a part of it.  However, the most that the suns have ever gotten is 13,000.  The existing roads and parking handle that no problem.  Parking costs $5 a car.  I live in Orange Park (not really, just go with the example).  Why would I drive 20 miles to Kings Avenue or the Convention Center, to then use the Skyway?  My guess is that JTA would not give their parking away, so the cost to park plus Skyway fare would probably work out to close to the $5.

Anyone coming from the far out skirts should just drive to the Complex, but people at Riverplace Station could benefit, also people after work could benefit. The Skyway is just AN option, shouldn't be THE option for every fan though.

^Even if all of those units had people, that is about 600 residential units.  Assuming 2.5 kids (which highrise condos don't get) that is 1500 people, or about .2% of Jacksonville.  Seems a bit expensive to me to build it for that.

Bottom line, it wouldn't make sense until we have at least one transit arm extending to a residential neighborhood.

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/241/453602638_7927f9c5a3.jpg)

Quote from: stjr on May 27, 2009, 01:03:13 AMOriginal Quote by Ocklawaha:

$10 bucks per game, 10 times a year, and 10,000 riders per game, next come up with a number, certainly more modest for commuters daily: perhaps 2,000, next add in the income from the Baseball Grounds, Arena, Fair Grounds, Metropolitan Park, The Kids Corner or the budding Randolph restoration district. I believe this 1.5 mile extension would more then triple the annual ridership and with $10 (Football) or $5 (other) venue fares it would increase the income many times over.

QuoteOck, I won't dismiss all your valiant efforts to support the continuation of the $ky-high-way because THEORETICALLY you may have some points.  However, I don't think they can survive REALITY.  Let's take the above estimates.  For $5 for an entire car, I can find lots of parking for the "other venues", so why would I pay that PER PERSON to take the City's amusement ride.  And, where will I park to get on it - in another lot charging $5.  There is ample parking for all events at the Arena/Sports complex except for the Jags, Florida/Georgia, or other sold out stadium events.  For those events, at about $25 for a car, I think I can find plenty of parking in decent walking distance.  For $7 a person, I can ride the current bus arrangement from the greater downtown stops with little hassle.  Why do we need another solution to the present arrangements that work fine?

STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

For those "Other" venues we would have to do a revenue test, an experiment to see if a $5.00 parking garage entry + Skyway coupons would attract riders. It's not so much the parking for the Suns or Concerts, etc... as it is the time and hassle that we could sell. Frankly $5.00 or even $3.00 beats the hell out of .50 cents. Another case of do the math and estimate the ridership with pilot program shuttles (such as a street with cones to seal it off to all but JTA shuttle buses then run the buses like the Skyway to test the market... BRT style).

QuoteAs to 2,000 daily commuters for the extension, the ENTIRE system doesn't get that many riders with the last number discussed being 1,700 riders.  Why would this leg add that many during a weekday?  Keep in mind the over 90% traffic estimate misses by the "experts" on the EXISTING COMPLETED line.

The original traffic estimates started at 60,000 riders per day, and changed to 30,000, then 17,000, then 10,000, then 5,000, and finally we hit almost 4,000 REAL riders a day at .35 cents a trip. Then we nearly doubled the fare and POOF, back to 1,700 a day for a net loss of about 300 in both ridership and revenue. But those original estimates were for a completed system, something we never even got 50% of. We simply have sent the Skyway out on a mission to run the race with one tennis shoe. I am confident that connections to buildings, shops, vendors, and a REAL marketing effort could more then double the Skyway ridership, and triple the income at the least.

QuoteHere is another question:  If you expand the system with the monorail configuration you advocate, is it compatible with the existing rail?  Or, do we need to rebuild the entire system over?  Also, are the cost estimates you keep proposing comparable situations to ours?  i.e. built through developed downtowns with lots of cross streets, sidewalks, close-in buildings, underground utilities, existing traffic lanes, rivers, highway overpasses, etc.?

Expansion as I encourage will be 100% compatible with the current monorail system. The Cost estimates came from REAL vendors who know the system, and as we already OWN the right-of-ways, it is an easy build. Ever wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY. Ever wonder why the new Bay Street plan has a huge walk on the South Side of the Street? SKYWAY. Also as Lakelander proposed, taking it lower or even to ground level in certain places would make it much cheaper to build, just remember NOTHING can cross it's path when it's on the ground.

Hope this answers the questions.  

OCKLAWAHA

^Once you get east of Marsh Street (Maxwell even faces Marsh), there is no real reason to turn north until you reach Philip Randolph.  That's roughly a four block stretch that also gets you under the Hart Bridge ramps.  Dropping the thing down to grade level there would save a ton of money on infrastructure costs.

Thanks Lake, I hadn't even looked at Marsh on the map, but something with cool freeway back lighting, Neon or strobes would be more cool then all of South Beach... (Okay, well maybe not, but close).  

OCKLAWAHA

Question - while it might save money, if you bring it down to Grade Level, how does one get across the thing?  Let's say you brought it down to grade after Marsh St.  Do you just not get across after that?

Steve, there is NO safe way to cross a monorail track at grade level. The track could be at grade for a length or elevate 8' feet in order to clear a pedestrian crossing, higher for an auto underpass. The whole at grade segment would have to have a safety fence, which would then be hidden with either decorative walls or plantings. This is why early on I suggested doing this only at end point stations where the track could decend to a platform level that was the same platform used by buses or streetcars. This type of transfer is called a cross-platform-transfer. As soon as the trains cleared the station they would climb right up to normal height. But Lake has a great point about the Hart Expressway, it would make for a cheap and quick duck under.  

OCKLAWAHA

Once you pass Marsh, there is no reason to cross north, assuming an at-grade portion runs on the north side of Bay Street.  Maxwell House is a solid wall.

Even though I would like for the skyway to be extended, but you dont need to ride the skyway because you have to drive into downtwon to attend any event. When I go to the Jags game I park downtown and walk to the game. I would like not to even have to drive to far from my neighborhood, but we are no way near any possibilites like that. When have drive into town why park and ride the skyway when youre just a few miles from your destination. When I lived in ATL I never left my neighborhood to attend any events downtown.

^Even without commuter rail, if we had an Amtrak corridor service, you could park your car at the Avenues or Orange Park and take the train into downtown where you could then transfer to the Skyway.  Thus, why we have made enhanced Amtrak service a key priority in the establishment of rail transit in Jacksonville.

I agree all must come together and work as one. I am for it, but,,,

Quote from: thelakelander on May 27, 2009, 09:36:15 PM
^Even without commuter rail, if we had an Amtrak corridor service, you could park your car at the Avenues or Orange Park and take the train into downtown where you could then transfer to the Skyway.  Thus, why we have made enhanced Amtrak service a key priority in the establishment of rail transit in Jacksonville.

that assumes that there would be a stop at those places...OP seems likely, the Avenues does not

My motto is you never know if you don't push for it.  My bet is that the Southside/Northern St. Johns County has a higher population than places like Vero Beach, Palm Coast and Stuart.  In addition, the junction of Philips, I-95 and I-295 would be an accessible location for a significant number of local residents.

Speaking long distance intercity, currently South Florida already has over four stations, Polk County two, and metro Orlando four, while Jax has one isolated stop a good drive north of downtown.  As you know a corridor service is different from the operation Amtrak runs in Florida today and is more likely to be attractive towards everyday commuters.  If corridor service stops can be located at places shown in the images below, we should be able to make an argument for a few well placed satellite stations throughout the First Coast.

Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Corridor - Anaheim Stadium Station
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/467546949_cgf4p-M.jpg)

Amtrak Pacific Surfliner Corridor - Burbank Airport Station
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/467546956_QX6t4-M.jpg)

Amtrak Capitol Corridor - Oakland Coliseum Station
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7766-ntbraymer-flickr.jpg)

Amtrak Hiawatha Corridor - General Mitchell Airport Station (Milwaukee)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7714-moncrief_speaks-flickr.jpg)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 27, 2009, 06:29:44 PM
STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

Ock, I understand your point but I don't see it succeeding.  Also, I would rather take any available dollars and prioritize them for suburban rail, streetcars, and Amtrak connections than put them toward the $ky-high-way.  I know you think you can get ALL these things and, clearly, I don't.  Right now, not ONE of them is going to happen based on what we know so we are probably mostly arguing over pride. :)

QuoteFor those "Other" venues we would have to do a revenue test, an experiment to see if a $5.00 parking garage entry + Skyway coupons would attract riders. It's not so much the parking for the Suns or Concerts, etc... as it is the time and hassle that we could sell. Frankly $5.00 or even $3.00 beats the hell out of .50 cents. Another case of do the math and estimate the ridership with pilot program shuttles (such as a street with cones to seal it off to all but JTA shuttle buses then run the buses like the Skyway to test the market... BRT style).

We are close on this point.  I don't see how $5 will pay for BOTH running the $ky-high-way roundtrip AND will provide a parking space somewhere near it when we can't run the much cheaper buses for less than $7.  I also see little numerical demand for such a service.  A study would be definitive but I suspect it will come nowhere close to justifying this as a basis for expanding the $ky-high-way.

QuoteThe original traffic estimates started at 60,000 riders per day, and changed to 30,000, then 17,000, then 10,000, then 5,000, and finally we hit almost 4,000 REAL riders a day at .35 cents a trip. Then we nearly doubled the fare and POOF, back to 1,700 a day for a net loss of about 300 in both ridership and revenue. But those original estimates were for a completed system, something we never even got 50% of.

Sorry, Ock.  I think you are just wrong on this part.  The estimates you quote yourself ARE for the COMPLETE SYSTEM which is what NOW EXISTS.  These estimates didn't take into account any other additions.  If you were to expand the system, the estimates would need to be FAR FAR HIGHER than these!  With the EXPERTS OFF by OVER 95% last time around, I don't see how we could ever rely on such BACKFILLED projections in the future.  It will just set us up for an even bigger failure.

QuoteExpansion as I encourage will be 100% compatible with the current monorail system. The Cost estimates came from REAL vendors who know the system, and as we already OWN the right-of-ways, it is an easy build. Ever wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY. Ever wonder why the new Bay Street plan has a huge walk on the South Side of the Street? SKYWAY. Also as Lakelander proposed, taking it lower or even to ground level in certain places would make it much cheaper to build, just remember NOTHING can cross it's path when it's on the ground.

Not addressed:  Do the cost estimates include related costs of traffic and other studies, environmental, relocation of utilities, right of way, demolition, building one or more new stations, etc. or just the direct costs of the new rail and supports?  Keep in mind, these projects seem to NEVER come in at anything close to projected costs used to obligate the taxpayers!  I am, again, not convinced by your INFORMAL and UNGUARANTEED estimates from a contractor looking for work.

I may be the eternal skeptic on the $ky-high-way, but I think history fully supports me and I see nothing going forward that will change that.

(http://www.monorails.org/webpix%202/Inuyama30DK.jpg)
Inuyama Japan, ground level monorail station, how easy would this be to have a bus and/or rail platform on the other side?

Actually the Avenues Walk have space for a corridor station already within the plan. Amtrak, prefers the Cities to build and maintain the train stations as they do for the airlines. They will also introduce new stops in widely scattered urban area's such as ours. Remember in 60 odd miles around Orlando the trains stop at Deland, Sanford, Winter Park, Orlando, Kissimmee and there is a currently unused NEW station at Poinciana.

For Keith, the idea isn't to drive into the venue downtown but drive to the edge of downtown where one can avoid the frustration of sitting for 40 minutes on Bay Street or some other road. Ideally for the Skyway, we could head up the super-slab, exit and park, for a flat fee per car it would include our transportation to the stadium, ball park etc... As corridor rail comes on line, then it's park in Orange Park and ride downtown, transfer to the Skyway and exit at the venue.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on May 27, 2009, 11:15:50 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 27, 2009, 06:29:44 PM
STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

Ock, I understand your point but I don't see it succeeding.  Also, I would rather take any available dollars and prioritize them for suburban rail, streetcars, and Amtrak connections than put them toward the $ky-high-way.  I know you think you can get ALL these things and, clearly, I don't.  Right now, not ONE of them is going to happen based on what we know so we are probably mostly arguing over pride. :)

Amtrak can easily happen with public support from this city and state.  They have a ton of federal money coming their way.  The same goes for using the BJP $100 million to fund a starter local rail line.  Unfortunately, our leaders have not fully accepted transit as being an important element to enhancing Jacksonville's quality of living.  Hopefully, this sentiment will change with the Mayor's visioning process.  Because what you put on those isolated riverfront sites don't mean a hill of beans if you can't find a way to connect them.

Quote from: stjr on May 27, 2009, 11:15:50 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 27, 2009, 06:29:44 PM
STJR, Please understand I would NEVER have built the damn thing to start with, big mistake, HUGE! But we have an investment in a Federal Demonstration project that the current administration would probably fund under one of the stimulus packages. I'd rather they spend it here then in Bull Frog Nevada. (a real place BTW) So I'm NOT a big fan of the Skyway but have come to love it like my love for my own Confederate Heritage... So get this y'all, not a fan of the Skyway, but a professional at making these type of things work.

Ock, I understand your point but I don't see it succeeding.  Also, I would rather take any available dollars and prioritize them for suburban rail, streetcars, and Amtrak connections than put them toward the $ky-high-way.  I know you think you can get ALL these things and, clearly, I don't.  Right now, not ONE of them is going to happen based on what we know so we are probably mostly arguing over pride. :)

I think we make a good team, you see I've been doing this for 29 years! I know some things that are just around the curve and I want us to move into a command position, now that Orlando is silenced, Miami kicked, and Tampa hobbled... Now it's our turn, my plans may take another 20 years, which I might have left, you see...("They killed me in Vietnam and I didn't even know...") LOL!

Quote

QuoteFor those "Other" venues we would have to do a revenue test, an experiment to see if a $5.00 parking garage entry + Skyway coupons would attract riders. It's not so much the parking for the Suns or Concerts, etc... as it is the time and hassle that we could sell. Frankly $5.00 or even $3.00 beats the hell out of .50 cents. Another case of do the math and estimate the ridership with pilot program shuttles (such as a street with cones to seal it off to all but JTA shuttle buses then run the buses like the Skyway to test the market... BRT style).

We are close on this point.  I don't see how $5 will pay for BOTH running the $ky-high-way roundtrip AND will provide a parking space somewhere near it when we can't run the much cheaper buses for less than $7.  I also see little numerical demand for such a service.  A study would be definitive but I suspect it will come nowhere close to justifying this as a basis for expanding the $ky-high-way.

We would have to come up with creative marketing packages. Work with teams, concert promoters, the hotels, Landing, Amtrak etc... Another addition I'd like to see happen is Monorail "Conductors", uniformed men and women in the mold of the Jacksonville Ambassador program. Also a Monorail youth group based on the BSA - Rail Explorer Scouts.  

Quote

QuoteThe original traffic estimates started at 60,000 riders per day, and changed to 30,000, then 17,000, then 10,000, then 5,000, and finally we hit almost 4,000 REAL riders a day at .35 cents a trip. Then we nearly doubled the fare and POOF, back to 1,700 a day for a net loss of about 300 in both ridership and revenue. But those original estimates were for a completed system, something we never even got 50% of.

Sorry, Ock.  I think you are just wrong on this part.  The estimates you quote yourself ARE for the COMPLETE SYSTEM which is what NOW EXISTS.  These estimates didn't take into account any other additions.  If you were to expand the system, the estimates would need to be FAR FAR HIGHER than these!  With the EXPERTS OFF by OVER 95% last time around, I don't see how we could ever rely on such BACKFILLED projections in the future.  It will just set us up for an even bigger failure.

I believe we are both right and wrong here. I've got some of the original studies, reports even the bound plans. Looks like JTA was all over the board on this thing, but was it REALLY JTA? or was it UMTA feeding Godbold a bunch of sweet sounding crap. Some of the numbers show the entire 8 miles and others claim amazing numbers for the first 3,000 feet or so. Incredible.  

Quote

QuoteExpansion as I encourage will be 100% compatible with the current monorail system. The Cost estimates came from REAL vendors who know the system, and as we already OWN the right-of-ways, it is an easy build. Ever wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY. Ever wonder why the new Bay Street plan has a huge walk on the South Side of the Street? SKYWAY. Also as Lakelander proposed, taking it lower or even to ground level in certain places would make it much cheaper to build, just remember NOTHING can cross it's path when it's on the ground.

Not addressed:  Do the cost estimates include related costs of traffic and other studies, environmental, relocation of utilities, right of way, demolition, building one or more new stations, etc. or just the direct costs of the new rail and supports?  Keep in mind, these projects seem to NEVER come in at anything close to projected costs used to obligate the taxpayers!  I am, again, not convinced by your INFORMAL and UNGUARANTEED estimates from a contractor looking for work.

Certainly my estimates are for TRACK miles only. Stations should not be fully dumped on the tax payers but coop's with the corporations that benefit. There are several ways to skin this cat. For example, we could exempt any new office tower from parking space requirements in exchange for their station, employees or residents get a pass as part of the perks. For the most part the utilities are avoidable because the city has kept the Monorail zones fairly clean.


You may be the eternal skeptic on the Skyway, but you've met the eternal optimist my friend.

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteEver wonder why Riverside Avenue has that wide median? SKYWAY.

Not true, it was expanded for the I-95/Forest runoff to downtown. Check out Riverside south of forest, drastically smaller roadway.

I think our old hippie (Ock) mis-spoke, not so much the "median" in the middle of Riverside Ave. - between Forest and the Acosta Bridge - but the area on the west side of Riverside.  JTA and DOT bought and cleared the full first block, which gives plenty of room for a possible extension of the Skyway down to BCBS.

QuoteJTA and DOT bought and cleared the full first block, which gives plenty of room for a possible extension of the Skyway down to BCBS.

Details, details....BCBSF is located at 532 Riverside Avenue. The building is bordered by Rosselle, May, Edison, and Riverside. Forest is a block over, so the poor BCBSF patrons who would ride the people mover would have to walk an additional block from the station, since Edison is not the same as Forest. The actual walk is closer to 2 blocks since the entrance to BCBSF is closest to Rosselle. Or an employee with a car and garage access could always drive and stay dry from the comfort of the parking deck. Tough call....

BCBSF does have a parking lot for all contractors located on Riverside, between Forest and Dora. Its about the same nice 2 block walk as well.

So if the people mover stops at Forest and Riverside, it dumps people out to have to walk 1, 2, 3 or more to their places of work. Should be fun selling BCBSF on sponsoring the people mover solution, when the company has to cut another 50 million dollars in employees this year.

I think DOT owns about half the block on the south side of Forest - at least it is fenced off, and I think it has signs saying it is a DOT lot.  Shouldn't cost that much more* to buy the building that sandwich shop is in - and now you're at Edison - and, being really creative, JTA could lease space in the station back to the sandwich shop.

Oh, and failing that, it is a short block between Edison and Forest, especially if the station were on the south side of Forest, or a covered elevated walkway were built over Forest (if the station stays north).

But your point about the tough economic times as not good for asking for corporate buy-in to new expenditures, is a good one.

* not that much more - we are talking about gov't spending here ;)

Hey  guys, I was told by one of the Skyway bosses that the "median" was where the Right-of-Way's were located,  could it be the Skyway boss doesn't know? Oh well... At least the concept that we HAVE a right of way, ready to use is made public. It's there, like it or not, and it's clear sailing to complete these vital segments of the "Train to Nowhere". Let's get streetcar, commuter rail and a completed Skyway, certainly we won't be Disney in attractiveness, but we'll be hot on their tails with TOMORROW LAND Transit.  

OCKLAWAHA

The Skyway boss was wrong.  The land reserved is on the side facing Brooklyn.  However, there is no reason it could not go down the median if they really wanted to build it.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 30, 2009, 10:53:05 AM
The Skyway boss was wrong.  The land reserved is on the side facing Brooklyn.  However, there is no reason it could not go down the median if they really wanted to build it.

Except the median is too narrow for either street car tracks or skyway supports.  They'd have to rebuild the entire road, moving half the road over into the area set aside for transit.  Makes more sense just to build the transit on the Brooklyn side of the street.

Isn't that median at least 12' wide?  That should be more than enough for support columns.  Anyway, I do agree that if someone were to expand it down Riverside Ave, use the ROW already set aside for it.

There is no money or need for it, so why waste your time debating it? A bus trolley would be fine for now, if anyone would ride it. But the TU is about to go under, Haskell is not hiring, St. Joe ?, and BCBSF is getting ready to sell itself.

No need.

There really is no debate.  However, planning for things a decade in advance should be happening now, regardless of current economic conditions.  This is why its crazy that Jax had no representation at the HSR and intercity passenger rail workshop last week.  With a long range plan in hand, when the time for expansion comes on line, we can actually move forward with implementing something instead of spending an extra decade or two on more studies.

Quote^Even if all of those units had people, that is about 600 residential units.  Assuming 2.5 kids (which highrise condos don't get) that is 1500 people, or about .2% of Jacksonville.  Seems a bit expensive to me to build it for that.

Bottom line, it wouldn't make sense until we have at least one transit arm extending to a residential neighborhood.

Its a start, why did you hit me with the "bottom line" Steve? There are 3  neighborhoods I know that would be perfect for it. So what are we promoting here, Rail? or More Roads? Doesn't Jax have enough roads? Since Jacksonville has existed, how much has been invested in roads? Wasn't Friendship Fountain expensive? How about the Riverwalk (both banks), were those cheap? The Pier at JaX Beach?? Not everyone likes to fish, who cars about a fountain?, people can WALK in their suburban neighborhood, so why have all these things that cost money? They make Jacksonville a better place. More stations would make Jacksonville a better place, just like the other things I mentioned.

People say they don't support the Skyway, because it does not make tons of money? Does the Jacksonville Zoo or MOSH makes tons of money?? Will the Jacksonville Skyline look the same in 2039 as it looks in 2009? I doubt it, but when the people eventually get there (and they will) then the cost for expanding is way up. Its like the city of Jacksonville never plans for the future, they just play everyday by ear, its annoying.

Developer's credo:

PLANNING?  What's that?  Could you spell it?  Sounds expensive.  Is that some California wacko environmentalist-liberal-commie-yankee-al queda-united nations taking-over-the-world concept?  Or some other subversive movement?  Out to end life like we know it.   If nothing else, it's just too much work.  That land is my land.  Don't you tell me what to do with it.  This is the land of freedom and property rights - to do what you want without thinking or being considerate of the greater community or the future.  Everyone for themselves.  I ain't working with no one else.  Just leave me alone.  All about making big $$$ for my little 'ol self.  And, don't raise my freakin' taxes.  Who cares the consequences!  The future - that's the next generation's problem.  I don't believe in that 1 + 1 = 3 stuff, either!  Nothin' I do affects anyone else.  I live in a vacuum.  Society - I didn't ask to join it so not partipatin'.  Time to steam roll my neighbors and buy off some more politcos.  ;D

QuoteThe estimates you quote yourself ARE for the COMPLETE SYSTEM which is what NOW EXISTS.

The 8 Stations that exist are not the complete system. The system is incomplete. 8 stations for 3 lines??

Bottom line? To scrap it would probably cost more then to complete it.

Scrap it and we get zero return on our investment.

Scrap it and we'll end the subsidy for operations.

Scrap it and we'll have to cover the loss of dozens of hi-tech jobs.

Complete it and we'll be certain to increase it's usefulness.

Connect it to residential, other transit, garages, hospitals, sports, night spots and we'll see a surge in riders.

It will NEVER make money, but if it can recover 25% of it's operating costs it will have reached the national average for all transit systems. This does not include the possible income from leasing space to vendors and advertisers within the stations.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 30, 2009, 10:54:00 PM
Bottom line? To scrap it would probably cost more then to complete it.

Scrap it and we get zero return on our investment.

Scrap it and we'll end the subsidy for operations.

Scrap it and we'll have to cover the loss of dozens of hi-tech jobs.

Complete it and we'll be certain to increase it's usefulness.

Connect it to residential, other transit, garages, hospitals, sports, night spots and we'll see a surge in riders.

It will NEVER make money, but if it can recover 25% of it's operating costs it will have reached the national average for all transit systems. This does not include the possible income from leasing space to vendors and advertisers within the stations.  

OCKLAWAHA

I agree Ocklawaha; send the damn thing somewhere and to other places around the city and the metro, and then maybe, just maybe it will live up to its utmost potential.  As it is now it is not useful in no way, shape or form and is not living up to its intended use.  Send it to Riverside, Southside, San Marco, Sports Complex, Northside, Westside, and then we're talking steak and potatoes and not raiman noodles.

Heights Unknown

fine, you guys go ahead and plan. When the money and more importantly, IF THE MONEY AND BUILDINGS COME, we can re-evaluate the plans at that time.

Till then, I enjoy looking at the dirt patches along Riverside in the Brooklyn area.

mtrain, over in the Sail Jacksonville thread, you commented that the fireworks were "mediocre" - the important question is: did the fireworks make a profit?

Quote from: mtraininjax on May 31, 2009, 12:06:26 AM
fine, you guys go ahead and plan. When the money and more importantly, IF THE MONEY AND BUILDINGS COME, we can re-evaluate the plans at that time.

Till then, I enjoy looking at the dirt patches along Riverside in the Brooklyn area.

Hey MTrain, what other Florida metropolis can boast of natrual Florida or "Florida Forever" land in it's downtown core?  

Quote from: Charles Hunter on May 31, 2009, 07:32:05 AM
mtrain, over in the Sail Jacksonville thread, you commented that the fireworks were "mediocre" - the important question is: did the fireworks make a profit?

Oh God Charles, now some member of some good ol' boy political machine is gonig to figure out how to produce a hand held metering device for the fireworks shows. "Punch One Dollar to see the Hearts", "Punch Two Dollars to see the Happy Faces"... Here we go!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Coolyfett on May 30, 2009, 06:51:29 PM

QuoteThe estimates you quote yourself ARE for the COMPLETE SYSTEM which is what NOW EXISTS.

The 8 Stations that exist are not the complete system. The system is incomplete. 8 stations for 3 lines??

Sorry, Cooly.  We already debated this subject once and you are wrong.  I wish you proponents would stop repeating myths so often that you start to really believe them.  You are damaging your own position because you are undermining your own credibility with me and other taxpayers who are tired of being grossly mislead on the $ky-high-way.  Until you admit its weaknesses and have specific solutions to them, you are failing to persuade those who are more objective in viewing this subject.  The cycle of arguments the proponents are putting forth today are just a rehash of the thinking used to build the original COMPLETE system.  See below for a post from a prior MJ thread: 

Quote from: stjr on April 05, 2009, 09:55:36 PM
Ock:

QuoteY'all might like to know that the SKYWAY "COMPLETED" is now back on the city's radar.

Sorry, Ock.  I agree with all your other comments on rail but I disagree with you on this one.  For two reasons: (1) It's a rat hole to put more money down it and (2) do this, and you can count on losing the FRAGILE community support for fixed mass transit projects such as street cars, light rail, and suburban rail because this will give it all an even bigger BLACK EYE (not everyone has your passion for rail, ya' know).

The $ky-high-way IS a COMPLETE SYSTEM.  See below.  New comers to Jax are being sold a bill of goods not knowing we have been down this path before.  Extending the $ky-high-way is not the HIGHEST and BEST use of our LIMITED MASS TRANSIT dollars or worthy of growing our multi-million dollar annual subsidy by LOCAL taxpayers.  When everything else is done, you can come back and play with this toy some more  ;).  P.S. Any politician pushing this is committing political career suicide.

Quote
ABC NEWS
$200 Million Ride to Nowhere
Almost No One Is Riding $200 Million Skyway

By Charles Herman
J A C K S O N V I L L E, Fla., July 29, 2002

The 2.5-mile Jacksonville Automated Skyway Express is a model of efficiency. Completely automated and controlled from a central operation center, the Skyway makes eight stops throughout the northeastern Florida city that is split in two by the St. John's River.

The only problem: hardly anyone rides it.

"It's strictly a waste of money from beginning to end," decried longtime Jacksonville critic Marvin Edwards. He blames the builder and supporter of the Skyway, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA).

"They lied about ridership projections," explained Edwards. "They said 56,000 a day at first, then dropped that to 30,000, then last it was 18,000 to 19,000."

Currently, the Skyway sees 3,000 riders per day who pay 35 cents a trip. In fiscal 2001, the Skyway brought in $513,694 in revenue but its expenses were $3.5 million.

Fights for Funding

The Skyway was first proposed back in 1971. It took more than a decade before the funding federal, state and local could be secured to start construction. At the time, the goal was mainly for development so the Skyway to connect the downtown core with parking facilities away from downtown.

The Jacksonville Skyway was part of three demonstration projects to see if "people-mover" systems could stimulate business expansion in downtown centers. Detroit and Miami received federal funds for similar projects.

Some officials within the Department of Transportation's Federal Transit Authority questioned the ridership projections for the Jacksonville Skyway.

In an interview with ABCNEWS' John Martin in 1994, Federal Transit Administration official Gordon Linton said, "We and this department, this administration and previous administrations, have not supported it."

Nevertheless, Congress eventually provided more than half the funds for the $182 million Skyway.

In 1987 construction began on the first 0.7-mile portion of the system.

"It was mainly for political reasons, not transportation reasons," explained former Rep. Bob Carr, who chaired the committee that approved funding for transportation projects in the early 1990s. "Like so many projects, they get a camel's nose under the tent and then it gets very very difficult to stop them."

Few Riders From the Start

In 1989 the first section was completed and opened to the public. Jacksonville's transit leaders projected more than 10,000 people would ride the Skyway a day on this 0.7-mile starter section.

Instead, only 1,200 rode the Skyway.

In 1993 Transit Authority member Miles Francis defended the system to ABCNEWS. "Until this thing is finished, there's no way to measure its performance or its potential."

Now it's finished and the Jacksonville Transit Authority is still waiting for the riders to come.

Open for Business

In November 2000, the complete Skyway opened to the public. Nearly two years later, with ridership at an average of 3,000 a day, the Skyway has not met even the projections for the starter section.

"No one will argue with the fact that ridership is not where we would like it to be," admitted Steve Arrington, director of engineering with the Jacksonville Transit Authority. He says the lack of riders is attributed to economic recessions in downtown Jacksonville in the early 1990s that led to a decrease in development in the area.

"Any number of things predicted to occur that didn't occur development-wise has an effect," he added. "Fuel prices, parking prices."

Arrington still believes in the Skyway and expects to reach its ridership goals. "You don't build a system like this or a roadway for the next four years," said Arrington. "You try to built it for the next 20 to 30 years."

Riding an empty car from one station to another, critic Edwards disagreed. "This really is a public rip-off and a total waste of money that could have gone for something not quite as fancy, but a lot more practical."

ABCNEWS' Jeffrey Kofman contributed to this story.

See:  http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4566.30.html#quickreply

Sorry, Ock, I just couldn't let you go unchallenged on this one. My responses in RED:

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 30, 2009, 10:54:00 PM
Bottom line? To scrap it would probably cost more then to complete it.  Really?  Care to back that up with a study?  It defies common sense to say this when we know that a loss of millions of dollars a year to operate it currently will grow further if it is expanded.  The costs to scrap it equals the cost of a wrecking ball less the proceeds from selling recycled concrete!


Scrap it and we get zero return on our investment. Zero return is better than a NEGATIVE return.  Not only is it hardly used but it costs lots more to subsidize than almost any alternative mode of transport.

Scrap it and we'll end the subsidy for operations.  Who is subsidizing operations?  The taxpayers, and local ones at that.  This kind of thinking is what makes government so inefficient in the eyes of the taxpayers and undermines support for projects that genuinely could do a much better job.


Scrap it and we'll have to cover the loss of dozens of hi-tech jobs. Replace it with a better and more successful project and those jobs will come back in even bigger numbers while Jax traffic and our environment will be better than ever.  Not to mention that higher return on investment we are all looking for.

Complete it and we'll be certain to increase it's usefulness. That's not saying very much since it is almost completely useless now. 


Connect it to residential, other transit, garages, hospitals, sports, night spots and we'll see a surge in riders.
Where is the comparison to other options?  You have offered many yourself and you know they are all better than the $ky-high-way since you have admitted if it didn't already exist you would never promote it.  JTA has said for over 25 years that a "SURGE in riders" was coming and we are still waiting.  It's not a rider-friendly system.  It's hard to access versus street level, it is hard to locate due to its size and technology, and it will thus never be convenient to the average rider.  Street level transit is far superior and that is what you should be putting at the top of the list.


It will NEVER make money, but if it can recover 25% of it's operating costs it will have reached the national average for all transit systems. This does not include the possible income from leasing space to vendors and advertisers within the stations.   I am not advocating a mass transit system that makes money, just one that serves far more people for a lot less in losses.  Anything, just about, will beat the $ky-high-way numbers and everyone involved knows it.  Let's not make this a case of the "emperor's new clothes" where no one wants to admit our dirty little secret:  The $ky-high-way is a huge pork barrel project failure and a blight on the City of Jacksonville that is costing the taxpayers dearly when such money could be used to run a much more successful solution.  P.S. The extra income from station leases and advertising is a wash since any alternative system would have the same opportunities.  This is grabbing at straws.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, I am with you on most of your subjects but I think you are blinded by the light on this one.  I know you say you were against it originally and I suggest you go back and revisit that position again.  Remember, my assertion is that any energy and resources put in promoting the $ky-high-way will undermine all else that you advocate for.  There simply are NOT ENOUGH RESOURCES or POLITICAL CAPITAL to grant all your wishes.  The $ky-high-way is the sick limb on the tree.  Prune it or the whole tree may die.

Jacksonville would be a better city if the Skyway system had more stations, its really too bad it is not finished.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/SydneyMonorail1_gobeirne.jpg/800px-SydneyMonorail1_gobeirne.jpg)
SYDNEY

Quote from: stjr on May 31, 2009, 01:43:26 PM
In an interview with ABCNEWS' John Martin in 1994, Federal Transit Administration official Gordon Linton said, "We and this department, this administration and previous administrations, have not supported it."

Nevertheless, Congress eventually provided more than half the funds for the $182 million Skyway.

In 1987 construction began on the first 0.7-mile portion of the system.

Talk about a stretch, the Federal Government is out and out lying to us through smoke and mirrors. UMTA = Urban Mass Transit Administration of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT then change the name to the FTA = FEDERAL TRANSIT ADMINISTRATION, then claim you had NOTHING to do with it. Now THIS is funny!

QuoteA Brief History of UMTA's Downtown People Mover Program

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1966, Congress created the Urban Mass Transportation Administration (UMTA) and gave it responsibility for the development of new types of transit systems. UMTA funded a variety of research and development projects during its first few years and then in late 1970 let a contract to West Virginia University for construction of the first automated people mover in the U.S. In 1971, UMTA funded four companies at $1.5 million each to set up a demonstration of their automated guideway transit (AGT) development results at a transportation exposition, called TRANSPO '72. It was held at the Dulles International Airport near Washington, D.C. One of the objectives of  TRANSPO '72 was to try to stimulate cities around the nation to get interested in ordering one of these four systems which had been developed with federal funds.. While a few systems were ordered for airports and zoos, as of 18 months later, no urban area had ordered an AGT system. This was quite disappointing to UMTA and Congress.

A little later, the Downtown People Mover (DPM) program was initiated by a recommendation from the Office of Technology Assessment, an agency of the U.S. Congress. On September 10, 1974, the Transportation Subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Appropriations requested an assessment of Personal Rapid Transit and other new systems. Mr. Clark Henderson (of the Stanford Research Institute) chaired the OTA Panel on Current Developments in the United States. This panel reported: "With $200 million invested in Automated Guideway Transit installations, it is unfortunate that there is no such installation in a city to ascertain feasibility. There should be a concerted effort by the Federal government, municipalities, and the transportation industry to initiate a first urban application promptly." A key finding in the OTA report to Congress stated: An urban demonstration project for Shuttle Loop Transit (SLT) appears justified."

In addition, Congressional pressure was increased on UMTA to show some positive results from their research and development expenditures. So, in 1975 UMTA announced its Downtown People Mover Program and sponsored a nationwide competition among the cities, offering them the federal funds needed to design and build such a system. Since UMTA was prepared to pay most of the costs of planning and building these systems as part of  its demonstration program, the response from the cities was almost overwhelming.

In 1976, after receiving and  reviewing 68 letters of interest and 35 full proposals and making on-site inspections of the top 15 cities, UMTA selected proposals from Los Angeles, St. Paul, Minnesota, Cleveland and Houston. It also concluded that Miami, Detroit and Baltimore would be permitted to develop DPMs if they could do so with existing grant committments. In 1997, the U.S. House of Representatives and the Senate Appropriations Conference Committee told UMTA to include Baltimore, Indianapolis, Jacksonville and St. Louis as part of the program. UMTA also added Norfolk, Virginia to the program. Cleveland and Houston were the first to withdraw from the program. Later, St. Paul also withdrew after its voters did not approve their project.

In August of 1980, the General Accounting Office issued a report entitled Better Justification Needed for Automated People Mover Demonstration Projects. Projects currently planned at that time were estimated to cost the federal government about $675 million. The GAO report stated that UMTA had not shown why each of the planning projects was needed to meet program objectives. They noted that UMTA officials believed that multiple projects were necessary to (a) assure that at least one project would be implemented, (b) test different technologies (even though only technologies successfully operating elsewhere were to be used), (c) minimize the risk of failure to meet project expectations (the people mover concept for downtown use could be discredited), and (d) reflect local differences such as climate and economic conditions that might affect project results.  GAO recommended that the U.S. Secretary of Transportation direct UMTA to identify the need for each of the planned projects and seek further guidance from the Congress. The DOT responded that the four projects that were added by Congress were not needed to meet program objectives but that four of the five projects not added by Congress were necessary to meet program objectives and that each would make a unique contribution toward meeting the program's objectives.

All four of the projects initially selected by UMTA later withdrew from the DPM program but Miami and Detroit stayed the course and eventually built DPMs. Both have had a stormy history but both are still in operation in 2007. The Miami system has been extended and planning for extending the Detroit system is underway.  Current developments in downtown Detroit are having some positive effects on the utility of the Detroit Mover. Additional information on both the Miami and Detroit systems is available on-line. Later, Jacksonville built a downtown people mover system and it has recently been upgraded and extended.

To assist the cities in planning DPM systems, UMTA developed a manual called Planning for Downtown People Movers to assist the the cities that wished to undertake a DPM planning effort. A draft of the manual was published in April of 1979 as part of the Transportation Systems Center's Urban and Regional Research Series under report number DOT-TSC-UM-917-PP-79-8. It was well-done and would be useful today as a guide for DPM planning studies.

Today, there are few who regard UMTA's DPM program as having been a "success". However, it should be noted that there were a great many cities that showed interest in the program, most probably motivated by the prospect of "free" federal money but also by the hope that they might be able to actually do something positive about the congestion and parking problems in their often ailing downtowns.

QuoteIn 1989 the first section was completed and opened to the public. Jacksonville's transit
("AUTHORITY" LOL) leaders projected more than 10,000 people would ride the Skyway a day on this 0.7-mile starter section.

Instead, only 1,200 rode the Skyway.

In 1993 Transit Authority member Miles Francis defended the system to ABCNEWS. "Until this thing is finished, there's no way to measure its performance or its potential."

In November 2000, the complete Skyway opened to the public. Nearly two years later, with ridership at an average of 3,000 a day, the Skyway has not met even the projections for the starter section.


Now it's finished and the Jacksonville Transit Authority is still waiting for the riders to come.

Sorry ABC, CBS, STJR and everyone else, until we can board and get off in SHANDS and the STADIUM it is NOT FINISHED.

In yet another phase: Further extensions were called for and supported (at least back in the day) to ST VINCENTS and SAN MARCO SQUARE. There was also a line on their future route map into Durkeeville.  

Quote"No one will argue with the fact that ridership is not where we would like it to be," admitted Steve Arrington, director of engineering with the Jacksonville Transit Authority. He says the lack of riders is attributed to economic recessions in downtown Jacksonville in the early 1990s that led to a decrease in development in the area.

"Any number of things predicted to occur that didn't occur development-wise has an effect," he added. "Fuel prices, parking prices."

Arrington still believes in the Skyway and expects to reach its ridership goals. "You don't build a system like this or a roadway for the next four years," said Arrington. "You try to built it for the next 20 to 30 years."

Things such as millions of dollars of subsidized parking spaces built by the city, or mandated by the city that went to directly undermine the Skyway projections. I will agree with Steve Arrington that from the time it was planned until it was completed the whole face of downtown retail dried up and thousands of square feet of previously owned or leased space went vacant. Again, parking, either metered or garaged played a huge roll in this. Jacksonville and the Skyway is another classic case of the "Duck shooting the hunter..." Can't say I didn't tell them so.

(http://images.nycsubway.org/i30000/img_30379.jpg)
SEATTLE

My point is and remains, that we can fix it to a degree, (unknown without serious study), at which a decision needs to be made. Finish it or take it down, or? Perhaps finish the San Marco, Riverside, Bay Street and Rosa Parks lines to the nearest safe downgrade ramp and convert the entire thing - AGAIN - this time to streetcar.  

OCKLAWAHA

STJR everyone knows your against the skyway and everyone knows why your against the skyway... but you're at a forum where the majority of posters supports the skyway expansion whether it's before or after commuter rail lines are established and even if the original skyway plan is complete.

I once saw 2 people picketing and preaching the "good word" right in the middle of the red-light district in Amsterdam. You & Mtrain remind me of those people.

I just think that you can take any transit form that is not a wild success, and come up with reasons to kill it.  Should we always do that?

Quote from: Shwaz on June 01, 2009, 10:01:16 AM
STJR everyone knows your against the skyway and everyone knows why your against the skyway... but you're at a forum where the majority of posters supports the skyway expansion whether it's before or after commuter rail lines are established and even if the original skyway plan is complete.

I once saw 2 people picketing and preaching the "good word" right in the middle of the red-light district in Amsterdam. You & Mtrain remind me of those people.

Shwaz, so, because I am outnumbered, I am wrong?  I don't think so.  Nor will I give up my advocacy as long as you and others don't give up yours.  This is a DISCUSSION board, last I checked, not a ONE WAY street.

You should also be aware that, as slanted as the discussion here may be for expanding the $ky-high-way, the discussion, amongst the public I know is fully the opposite.  Should MJ posters give up because, in the big scheme, they are possibly a tiny minority?  Maybe it is you and your brethren who are the "good word" people in Amsterdam!  :D

P.S. As previously stated, I think some proponents are not being realistic as to resources and political capital for the $ky-high-way.  Sorry to bust your bubble, but someone needs to be grounded here.

While I disagree with Stjr, that doesn't necessarily make me right, and him wrong.  I believe it to be right however :)

Quote from: stjr on June 01, 2009, 01:20:48 PM

Quote from: Shwaz on June 01, 2009, 10:01:16 AM
STJR everyone knows your against the skyway and everyone knows why your against the skyway... but you're at a forum where the majority of posters supports the skyway expansion whether it's before or after commuter rail lines are established and even if the original skyway plan is complete.

I once saw 2 people picketing and preaching the "good word" right in the middle of the red-light district in Amsterdam. You & Mtrain remind me of those people.

Shwaz, so, because I am outnumbered, I am wrong?  I don't think so.  Nor will I give up my advocacy as long as you and others don't give up yours.  This is a DISCUSSION board, last I checked, not a ONE WAY street.

You should also be aware that, as slanted as the discussion here may be for expanding the $ky-high-way, the discussion, amongst the public I know is fully the opposite.  Should MJ posters give up because, in the big scheme, they are possibly a tiny minority?  Maybe it is you and your brethren who are the "good word" people in Amsterdam!  :D

P.S. As previously stated, I think some proponents are not being realistic as to resources and political capital for the $ky-high-way.  Sorry to bust your bubble, but someone needs to be grounded here.

stjr - I'm not saying you're wrong or that out-n-about people aren't against skyway expansion... but this thread is about re-evaluating the skyway. The purpose of the discussion is to brain storm new cost effective lines, station's, operation etc. which is a subject that a lot of metro jax is well versed on. Your post's in this thread don't offer anything new... it's the same anti "$ky-highway" points you've been preaching forever and this imo isn't the right thread. Why not start an anti-skyway thread and keep your “not wrong” jargin there? You can post link's and articles of similar transit systems elsewhere that have failed miserably further proving your point.

QuoteI agree.   Masses of people agreeing on something doesnt make it right, Schwaz.  How else to explain the popularity of Brittney Spears, Debbie Gibson, Adam Ant, or Backstreet Boys?

:D

Quote from: Shwaz on June 01, 2009, 03:35:29 PM
stjr - I'm not saying you're wrong or that out-n-about people aren't against skyway expansion... but this thread is about re-evaluating the skyway. The purpose of the discussion is to brain storm new cost effective lines, station's, operation etc. which is a subject that a lot of metro jax is well versed on.

Any "reevaluation" of the $ky-high-way that does not consider putting it and us out of our collective misery is not a full reevaluation.  To presuppose that expansion is viable is not an evaluation, it's an ASSUMPTION.

While Ock does an admirable job of summing up the proponents position, all the "points" (or "fantasies") of many posters on this thread have been expressed numerous times elsewhere on MJ.  This thread amounts to a compendium of all those points.  There is nothing here that is ground breaking.  In fact, many of the posters points are so predictable, I provided you previously with a satirical $ky-high-way poll with a synopsis of all the proponents' standard "excuses" for expanding the system. 

Without statistics/input  from traffic polls, cost estimates, studies, demographics, construction designs, ALTERNATIVE SYSTEMS, demolition contractors, financial projections, rights of way, environmental, neighborhood and business district property owners, etc. no one can take any of these "ideas" to another level.  As such, this "discussion" is more like a stuck needle on a record player for those old enough to remember such things.

And, why would I want to have an "anti-thread"?  My goal is to talk with the heathens, the unconverted, not those who have already come to the good side! ;D

Where do you live again stjr?  Because in my group of friends in my part of town, we all want it expanded and more usable.

Quote from: brainstormer on June 01, 2009, 06:13:30 PM
Where do you live again stjr?  Because in my group of friends in my part of town, we all want it expanded and more usable.

I live in Duval County which makes me a stockholder in the $ky-high-way with all your fellow citizens.  As such, all our opinions count equally.

Here is Ock's suggestion for expansion: 

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7071-skyway-map-2.jpg)

Which of these expansion areas do you live in?  Unless you live in one of the recent Downtown or Southbank projects, my guess is you very likely don't live in any of them.  If your friends are in the same situation, I can already see their enthusiasm diminishing.  Let them know that to make the $ky-high-way of greater use, everytime they go near Downtown, they need to transfer from their car to one of the terminal nodes and ride in from there.  Now provide your friends with a list of numerous transportation modes and solutions to "serve" them and the relative operating costs of these solutions to taxpayers.  Add that the higher the operating costs the less they will get in other City services due to the need to increase subsidies to the transit projects implemented.  If you fully inform them of the trade offs, my guess is that the $ky-high-way will be near the bottom of the list.  It's easy to want something when the cost of getting it or other alternatives are not considered. 

That's what's wrong today with our economy.  Let's buy the first thing we see and somehow the money to pay for it will drop from the sky. 

Skyway Wisdom from Moma Cass Elliot... Ahh To Be Back In The Day!

Nobody can tell ya
There's only one song worth singing
They may try and sell ya
Cause it hangs them up to see someone like you
But you've gotta make your own kind of music
Sing your own special song
Make your own kind of music
Even if nobody else sings along
You're gonna be nowhere
The loneliest kind of lonely
It may be rough going
Just to do your thing's the hardest thing to do
But you've gotta make your own kind of music
Sing your own special song

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: brainstormer on June 01, 2009, 06:13:30 PM
  Because in my group of friends in my part of town, we all want it expanded and more usable.

I hear ya. Sounds like you have progressive friends. Hopefully Jax will eventually get its act together on transit OPTIONS.

I used to live in Five Point/Riverside area, that is/was ,my main reason for supporting the Skyway, of course if I lived in Julington Creek or Orange Park then I would be a skyway hater as well. The site is called METRO Jacksonville, but I guess the RURAL Jacksonville opinion can be expressed as well. If this site was highlighting the horse track on Normandy and lakes in Yulee, Id probably never have signed up for it. LUCKY, its about the Urban Core, the best part of any major metro city. Keyword METRO. Unfortunately I don't see city leadership seeing the importance of having another transit option beside the automobile anytime soon. I honestly don't expect another Skyway station to be built til 2039, by then Ill be 59 and probably wont even want to be in the metro area of any city......Id become a turtle.  :-\

Oh but I digress, to previous arguments. Some of you that continue to insist the Skyway come to your driveway before you justify it, you lack vision. In Mass Transit "MIX SELLS", and the Skyway as I propose it is only one of the many choices I'd like to introduce to our city over the next 20 years. Somewhere in that time, twill be my time to roll into the great carbarn of eternity and pull down the pole... But between now and then, Good Lord willing, I'm planning to make a lot of noise.

The Skyway is just a small center piece. Look at the commuter rail for example, I'm planning on moving to St. Augustine in a few weeks and when I do, oh my, I could ride into town on the JTA-FEC-Link and/or AMTRAK, and step off in the South Jacksonville station in order to go to the library, the landing or visit friends at The Strand, or catch a dinner at Ruth's Chris. No car involved, unless you count the Sun Bus, (St Augustine's booming and record breaking community transit system). Just me and 60,000 other folks a day rolling in from the South Side of the City to various points in town. JTA also plans links to STJTC the Beaches and JTB office areas, and these may well be LIGHT RAIL!

In fact, I have it on good authority that some of my railroad friends are spending some time with our Buddy's from DOT, and JTA. Just today the Governor was in town to sign off on JTA becoming regional.

The president is looking for shovel ready plans and we're deep in our Commuter Rail Study Already, the State could exempt AMTRAK/FEC from having to do a completely new study and fling open that door on a moments notice (IF WE'D JUST PUSH A BIT HARDER), this same service will almost hand us the Southside Commuter Rail line. The Skyway has some older plans and studies to the Stadium, Riverside, and Shands, I'll have to ask about San Marco, but that hole between the new Hilton and Parking Garage speaks volumes... Want free money to get a small part of this moving, JUST ASK! Part of our Skyway could be expanding about as fast as our Streetcar could. Streetcar is a very real study and I know a number of guys REALLY behind that effort too. For all the hell I dish out to COJ and JTA I wouldn't be here picking on them if I didn't love this City and the people that live here.

I can't tell you guys everything I know about this stuff as it might present a threat to some of our best friends. Just trust me when I tell you, screwed up as the recent HSR/FRA/AMTRAK thing was with COJ and JTA, that our Transit "Authority" is not DEAD, nor are they out of the game.  

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2429/3588050148_c69696cb28.jpg)
Doesn't look so naked now does it?

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteAs such, this "discussion" is more like a stuck needle on a record player for those old enough to remember such things.

Why not let this group just spin it's wheels then? You obviously believe that majority of the city is behind you and against skyway expansion, that no one here discussing & re-evaluating the skyway can make a difference.
Why are you so hard up to change the minds of all these peons who pose no threat to your ideals?

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2429/3588050148_c69696cb28.jpg)
A great vision for what could be. I was hoping for the streetcar line to be on Riverside Ave.  :D

Quote from: Shwaz on June 02, 2009, 09:36:50 AM

QuoteAs such, this "discussion" is more like a stuck needle on a record player for those old enough to remember such things.

Why not let this group just spin it's wheels then? You obviously believe that majority of the city is behind you and against skyway expansion, that no one here discussing & re-evaluating the skyway can make a difference.
Why are you so hard up to change the minds of all these peons who pose no threat to your ideals?

Shwaz, look in the mirror. I ask you, "Why are you so hard up to change the minds of all these peons who pose no threat to your ideals?"   (Remember, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.)

Let me be clear, I don't begrudge those who advocate for the $ky-high-way's expansion, I just don't agree with them on the subject.

Why is this such an emotional "hot button" for some?  Shwaz, when you can't put on the table a coherent, factually based, and/or rational discussion to support your case and/or rebut mine, but rather resort to emotional pleas of "just go away and leave us alone if you don't agree with us", you are giving my case a big boost in the eyes of those who may remain undecided.  Thank you.  P.S. That also won't get you an "A" from a debate teacher.

Quote from: JeffreyS on June 02, 2009, 10:24:16 PM
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2429/3588050148_c69696cb28.jpg)
A great vision for what could be. I was hoping for the streetcar line to be on Riverside Ave.  :D

Here is a novel idea:  Why not give JeffreyS and I what we both want? Run the STREETCARS everywhere there is YELLOW, i.e. in lieu of the $ky-high-way being expanded!  That would give the streetcar grid exponential flexibility in routing and great a toe hold for loops through San Marco, the Southbank, and maybe even St. Nicholas and Lakewood.  You would also get streetcars down "historic" Bay Street.  Now that would be a plan I could support. 

Would you have an isolated streetcar line on the Southbank or are you suggesting to build another river crossing?

QuoteThat also won't get you an "A" from a debate teacher.

I am guessing a debate teacher would object to debaters using derogotory terms like $ky-high-way when more appropriate and correct terms are available.

Rehashing the same used up points won't get you an "A" either... in fact you'd be thrown off the team as you haven't swayed single MJ poster  :D

Quote from: stjr on May 26, 2009, 12:26:43 AM

Quote from: adamh0903 on May 25, 2009, 03:13:08 PM
Although it wasn't my first time on the skyway, (it was my first time to wait in line) there really is no reason to use it coming from a suburban area. If I have to drive 25 miles to a station, I might as well drive the .3 to my destination.

I really don't want to rehash all my objections again to the $ky-high-way here.  One can go read any of about a dozen or more threads on this boondoggle elsewhere to see all sides to this debate.

You pretty much summed up my entire point on page six with your own words.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2429/3588050148_c69696cb28.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on June 03, 2009, 07:59:40 AM
Would you have an isolated streetcar line on the Southbank or are you suggesting to build another river crossing?

I don't see it as a necessity to build a river crossing although if we ever abandon the $ky-high-way, we could reuse that real estate again.  Interestingly, the old Acosta Bridge was three lanes and I was always told the middle lane originally was a streetcar line.  Maybe you or Ock could verify this.  It would be history repeating itself if that came to pass again.

Having an "isolated" streetcar line on the Southbank would be fine if it is designed to loop through San Marco and, maybe, reach to St. Nicholas, Emerson, Hendricks, St. Augustine Road, and/or University Blvd. West/Lakewood areas.  I believe you and Ock have already highlighted smaller starter lines in other cities that have been successes.

So, Lake, what, if any, objections would one have to replace Ock's proposed extension of the $ky-high-way with streetcar lines?

Ohh the SkyWay...
I remember when they opened it, i was a youngster and it looked like the greatest thing ever. After living in DC and Chicago the skyway didn't look all that awesome. It would be great to have an "L" or train transit..but realistically i don't think it would be greatly appreciated or used. Maybe if they extended it to just the urban areas (i.e. Shands, 5 points, and further into San Marco) and use the rest of the money to improve the bus system. I think if the bus system was quicker, ran more often and longer people wouldn't be so reluctant to ride.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/3590000075_3a41a75c70.jpg)
Jacksonville Convention Center Station, 2021?

Quote from: stjr on June 03, 2009, 05:14:00 PM
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2429/3588050148_c69696cb28.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on June 03, 2009, 07:59:40 AM
Would you have an isolated streetcar line on the Southbank or are you suggesting to build another river crossing?

I don't see it as a necessity to build a river crossing although if we ever abandon the $ky-high-way, we could reuse that real estate again.  Interestingly, the old Acosta Bridge was three lanes and I was always told the middle lane originally was a streetcar line.  Maybe you or Ock could verify this.  It would be history repeating itself if that came to pass again.

The "Duval Bridge Company" operated a double track route over the original Acosta Bridge, seems few if any other historians in town remember that Mayor Jake? promised us to save the center towers and span to go on permanent display in a nearby park. It would have been an outstanding bow to history not just Jacksonville but the entire State. I understand it's somewhere off shore today and I'd STILL like to drag it back home! Damn them! They have done this over by the Swannee River crossing at Chiefland and again as a fishing pier in Sanford on old 17-92 (well worth the stops if you dig old stuff). In my older photos the Duval bridge tracks stop about 20' feet from the Jacksonville Traction rails on Riverside?? Weird, a toll booth stood between them. My guess is the photo was likely before the streetcar connection was built as the South Jacksonville Muni operated single ended cars AND double enders. The single enders would not have ever entered into a dead end track, as unless you LOVE lightning strikes... Ain't no way I'm PUSHING that trolley pole along the wire, (it's always trailing or pulled). If the photo dates after the traction era, then it begs a question of when the tolls came off??

QuoteHaving an "isolated" streetcar line on the Southbank would be fine if it is designed to loop through San Marco and, maybe, reach to St. Nicholas, Emerson, Hendricks, St. Augustine Road, and/or University Blvd. West/Lakewood areas.  I believe you and Ock have already highlighted smaller starter lines in other cities that have been successes.[/b]

So, Lake, what, if any, objections would one have to replace Ock's proposed extension of the $ky-high-way with streetcar lines?

SAN MARCO EXTENSION:
The reason we cannot extend the Skyway with streetcar in the Southbank is it would require two transfers within a mile for passengers on Commuter Rail or Regional/Intercity Rail who embark or disembark at San Marco Station, (a station that would be placed west of the tracks right at Atlantic and the Florida East Coast). Passengers need the ability to step off the train and onto the Skyway for the downtown trip. Nothing wrong with also having a Southside Streetcar Line, and BRT connections coming out of the same station... But Southside is not optimum for streetcar in the close in areas of San Marco-Downtown, due to two crossings of the Florida East Coast Railway Mainline. Until we spring for two highway underpasses, which will be below river level, totally doable however for perhaps twice the price of your $kyway!

There are REASONS why I now support those 3 extensions on a system I have fought for at least 10 years:

RIVERSIDE AVENUE:
Skyway "central" is already positioned to move down Riverside and the right of way is already owned and preserved by the City. Riverside is not streetcar friendly as both the grades, traffic, multiple merging and exit lanes and freeway speeds would play more to a bus, or trolley bus which has a bit of emergency radial mobility. So we take the Skyway at least to Forrest and connect it to other modes, ideally we tie the new insurance/financial buildings to the system and use the Skyway, Streetcar, BRT, Bus connecting area as an excuse to recycle and save Annie Lytle.

STADUIM EXTENSION:
Any new convention center on the city waterfront Courthouse/Hyatt/Landing area is going to need a direct link to Transportation Center and the Skyway is more then 1/2 way there. In fact even if it just extends the few blocks to Hyatt/Courthouse blocks it would do wonders for city connectivity. The Skyway has an almost unique ability (streetcars too but perhaps a slightly lesser degree) of punching right through the heart of a building like a convention center. Witness Disney's Atrium Hotel/Monorail. Finish it 3/4 of the way to the stadium is just as crazy, when we'd be in easy striking distance of the Randolph/Arena/Stadium/Park/Ball Field district. Imagine the ease of mobility the conventioneer's would report home after a trip to our city.

"Incredible, they had this monorail to the transportation center and another line to the Southside station where we caught the train to St. Augustine. Then these historic streetcars go down along the waterfront to the Landing and this quaint little 5-Points place, or North into the really old homes and shops in Springfield. Going from Amtrak to the monorail was a snap, we went through a tunnel, into this amazing old station, then up and out... streetcars, monorails, buses, freeways, God they even have WATER BUSES..."  (Report to CEO's in DCA/BNA/MSY or LAX circa...2021)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on June 03, 2009, 05:14:00 PM
Having an "isolated" streetcar line on the Southbank would be fine if it is designed to loop through San Marco and, maybe, reach to St. Nicholas, Emerson, Hendricks, St. Augustine Road, and/or University Blvd. West/Lakewood areas.  I believe you and Ock have already highlighted smaller starter lines in other cities that have been successes.[/b]

So, Lake, what, if any, objections would one have to replace Ock's proposed extension of the $ky-high-way with streetcar lines?

I'm not a big fan of isolating transit components.  In this particular case, a skyway extension to Atlantic, would be cheaper and more efficient because the system already ties riders in with downtown and the terminal.  An extension of a few hundred feet, half of which could be dropped to ground level, would be significantly cheaper than building an isolated duplicate streetcar line from scratch.  In addition, that streetcar line would most likely have to be grade separated with the FEC mainline (more money) and it would require duplicate O&M operations (more money).  So unless, the skyway was abandoned and a separate mass transit system was built using the support infrastructure, I would be opposed.  Then if this were done, you would still need this particular corridor to construct a transit bridge to get you over the FEC tracks. 

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 03, 2009, 07:00:04 PM
So, Lake, what, if any, objections would one have to replace Ock's proposed extension of the $ky-high-way with streetcar lines?

QuoteSAN MARCO EXTENSION:
The reason we cannot extend the Skyway with streetcar in the Southbank is it would require two transfers within a mile for passengers on Commuter Rail or Regional/Intercity Rail who embark or disembark at San Marco Station, (a station that would be placed west of the tracks right at Atlantic and the Florida East Coast). Passengers need the ability to step off the train and onto the Skyway for the downtown trip.

Why do Commuter Rail passengers have to disembark in San Marco?  Why can't they ride the rails on FEC over their bridge and get off directly at a Downtown station like the planned intermodal facility?  By the way, in your San Marco transfer scenario, the $ky-high-way requires two transfers, one to it at your San Marco station and one to another mode once Dowtown.  Why doesn't that bother you?  Commuter Rail can take you direct to the intermodal facility and would thus involve only one intermodal transfer Downtown.

QuoteNothing wrong with also having a Southside Streetcar Line, and BRT connections coming out of the same station... But Southside is not optimum for streetcar in the close in areas of San Marco-Downtown, due to two crossings of the Florida East Coast Railway Mainline. Until we spring for two highway underpasses, which will be below river level, totally doable however for perhaps twice the price of your $kyway!

Why can't the streetcars go up and over.  This may be cheaper than going under.  And, I can't believe it would cost anywhere near what the far bigger $ky-high-way would cost.  Consider, too, that the entire rest of the streetcar system is at grade and the $ky-high-way is entirely, or almost entirely, elevated making the system costs far more as well.

QuoteThere are REASONS why I now support those 3 extensions on a system I have fought for at least 10 years:

RIVERSIDE AVENUE:
Skyway "central" is already positioned to move down Riverside and the right of way is already owned and preserved by the City. Riverside is not streetcar friendly as both the grades, traffic, multiple merging and exit lanes and freeway speeds would play more to a bus, or trolley bus which has a bit of emergency radial mobility. So we take the Skyway at least to Forrest and connect it to other modes, ideally we tie the new insurance/financial buildings to the system and use the Skyway, Streetcar, BRT, Bus connecting area as an excuse to recycle and save Annie Lytle.

Ock, why so complicated here?  First, the Streetcars could use the very same right of way you claim is reserved for the $ky-high-way.  And, Riverside Avenue does not have "freeway speeds" or the complexity of traffic you protray to my knowledge.  Based on your own posted pictures of streetcars elsewhere, I don't see the widened Riverside Avenue as anything but streetcar friendly.  And, no reason streetcars can't connect to BRT's or buses if needed.  What advantage is there in introducing another mode of transit with the $ky-high-way when you are more than covered by less expensive, more flexible, and more street friendly and accessible options?

QuoteSTADUIM EXTENSION:
Any new convention center on the city waterfront Courthouse/Hyatt/Landing area is going to need a direct link to Transportation Center and the Skyway is more then 1/2 way there. In fact even if it just extends the few blocks to Hyatt/Courthouse blocks it would do wonders for city connectivity. The Skyway has an almost unique ability (streetcars too but perhaps a slightly lesser degree) of punching right through the heart of a building like a convention center. Witness Disney's Atrium Hotel/Monorail. Finish it 3/4 of the way to the stadium is just as crazy, when we'd be in easy striking distance of the Randolph/Arena/Stadium/Park/Ball Field district. Imagine the ease of mobility the conventioneer's would report home after a trip to our city.

Ock, your own proposal shows streetcars far more networked throughout Downtown and the urban grid than the $ky-high-way.  Why wouldn't riders prefer the most networked option that provides the most convenience, efficiency, and flexibility?  The $ky-high-way is limited to a straight line travel through town for the most part.

In the end, an extensively networked and COMPLETE STREETCAR system can literally run circles around the $ky-high-way system, with or without an expansion, in my opinion.  That's my story and I'm stickin' with it. ;)

Quote from: thelakelander on June 03, 2009, 07:44:58 PM
I'm not a big fan of isolating transit components.  In this particular case, a skyway extension to Atlantic, would be cheaper and more efficient because the system already ties riders in with downtown and the terminal.  An extension of a few hundred feet, half of which could be dropped to ground level, would be significantly cheaper than building an isolated duplicate streetcar line from scratch.  In addition, that streetcar line would most likely have to be grade separated with the FEC mainline (more money) and it would require duplicate O&M operations (more money).  So unless, the skyway was abandoned and a separate mass transit system was built using the support infrastructure, I would be opposed.  Then if this were done, you would still need this particular corridor to construct a transit bridge to get you over the FEC tracks. 

A Phase I streetcar system for the south side of the river would be to mainly service the higher density intra-sectional traffic on that side.  If someone wants to cross the river, they can take the existing $ky-high-way, a river taxi, a bus, walk, bike, or take any eventual substitute for the $ky-high-way if it's abandoned (such as a streetcar connection!).

As I said in my last post to Ock, Commuter Rail should plow on through to the intermodal facility downtown.  So, for what purpose would one want to expand the $ky-high-way to Atlantic's crossing the FEC?  What's there that is going to generate traffic or serve as a destination?  Nothing that I know of.  This expansion appears to me to be a complete waste even if you were to believe in the $ky-high-way model.

QuoteWhy can't the streetcars go up and over.  This may be cheaper than going under.  And, I can't believe it would cost anywhere near what the far bigger $ky-high-way would cost.  Consider, too, that the entire rest of the streetcar system is at grade and the $ky-high-way is entirely, or almost entirely, elevated making the system costs far more as well.

I can't tell if you're asking for my opinion on Ock's map or responding to Ock.  So here's my take on the image shown.

San Marco Extension

As said earlier, this is one where the skyway would be cheaper, because its an already established system.

The cost of a streetcar bridge would be about the same as building a skyway bridge over the FEC, assuming you used the same ROW mentioned for extending the skyway down to Atlantic Blvd.  You'll pay more than twice as much for a Hendricks overpass (destroying a few historic structures in the process) and an overpass would not be feasible at the San Marco Blvd crossing (the Acosta overpass is in the way).  Once we put the overpass issue aside, you would not need to purchase new skyway cars or expand the existing O&M center.  Put a streetcar on the Southbank and you'll have to add these things to the cost as well.


Riverside Avenue

As for the rest of Ock's diagram, I would send a streetcar down Riverside Ave, south of Forest or Oak south of Margaret.  There are too many major employment, medical, retail and cultural destinations along that corridor to ignore.  


Downtown

Instead of having three east/west streetcar lines or a mega couplet downtown, I would eliminate one or two of those lines and spend the money saved on extending direct connections to nearby urban neighborhoods like Durkeeville, Sugar Hill and Avondale.  We'll get more bang for our buck by getting transit into areas where more residents live instead of a dominate focus on the Northbank.


Stadium Extension

This is something that should probably be studied.  I could go either way on this one.  However, I do like the idea of having a streetcar line directly through the heart of the Cathedral District (Duval Street), as opposed to Bay Street.

QuoteIn the end, an extensively networked and COMPLETE STREETCAR system can literally run circles around the $ky-high-way system, with or without an expansion, in my opinion.  That's my story and I'm stickin' with it.

I believe a mix will work best.  Neither will efficiently tie in the burbs and their support will be needed for any form of mass transit expansion.

Quote from: stjr on June 03, 2009, 08:13:49 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 03, 2009, 07:44:58 PM
I'm not a big fan of isolating transit components.  In this particular case, a skyway extension to Atlantic, would be cheaper and more efficient because the system already ties riders in with downtown and the terminal.  An extension of a few hundred feet, half of which could be dropped to ground level, would be significantly cheaper than building an isolated duplicate streetcar line from scratch.  In addition, that streetcar line would most likely have to be grade separated with the FEC mainline (more money) and it would require duplicate O&M operations (more money).  So unless, the skyway was abandoned and a separate mass transit system was built using the support infrastructure, I would be opposed.  Then if this were done, you would still need this particular corridor to construct a transit bridge to get you over the FEC tracks. 

A Phase I streetcar system for the south side of the river would be to mainly service the higher density intra-sectional traffic on that side.  If someone wants to cross the river, they can take the existing $ky-high-way, a river taxi, a bus, walk, bike, or take any eventual substitute for the $ky-high-way if it's abandoned (such as a streetcar connection!).

Can you show the route that is in your head.  I'm highly interested to see where it would cross the FEC.

QuoteSo, for what purpose would one want to expand the $ky-high-way to Atlantic's crossing the FEC?  What's there that is going to generate traffic or serve as a destination?  Nothing that I know of.  This expansion appears to me to be a complete waste even if you were to believe in the $ky-high-way model. [/b]

San Marco Square and the Hendricks Avenue Strip would be the purpose and the traffic generators.  With the FEC crossing in place, one could easily work or live downtown and get to San Marco Square to eat or shop without the use of a car.  San Marco residents could use that location to get to downtown offices, nightlife and cultural destinations without the use of a car or being subject to heavy train traffic.  It would also be a nice point to tie the downtown network in with buses coming in from Atlantic and Beach Blvds.

Quote from: Omarvelous09 on June 03, 2009, 06:04:05 PM
Ohh the SkyWay...
I remember when they opened it, i was a youngster and it looked like the greatest thing ever. After living in DC and Chicago the skyway didn't look all that awesome. It would be great to have an "L" or train transit..but realistically i don't think it would be greatly appreciated or used. Maybe if they extended it to just the urban areas (i.e. Shands, 5 points, and further into San Marco) and use the rest of the money to improve the bus system. I think if the bus system was quicker, ran more often and longer people wouldn't be so reluctant to ride.

Welcome to the discussion, you are 100% right of course, if the times (called headways) were closer the bus system would be much more usable. In streetcar days our city had 8 minute headways, today's buses run 30-45 minute headways, (if your lucky).

The beauty of expanding the Skyway just to some basic logical terminals, and   streetcars and rail service, is we can redeploy the buses to operate more like our classical lost transit. If we had Commuter and Regional Amtrak Rail, plus a good sized streetcar network and finished our Skyway to some logical terminals, we could retire dozens of bus route miles that are now spent running from downtown to whatever community that local bus serves. We take those same buses and now run them from the nearest Rapid Transit Station to the local community, and we could double or triple the service with almost no effort. Wouldn't 20 minute headways beat the heck out of what we now have?

You get it my friend! Rock on.  

OCKLAWAHA

(http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/sydney.jpg)
A simple single beam monorail is quick, cheap and easy to build.

Quote from: stjr on June 03, 2009, 07:58:33 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 03, 2009, 07:00:04 PM
So, Lake, what, if any, objections would one have to replace Ock's proposed extension of the $ky-high-way with streetcar lines?

QuoteSAN MARCO EXTENSION:
The reason we cannot extend the Skyway with streetcar in the Southbank is it would require two transfers within a mile for passengers on Commuter Rail or Regional/Intercity Rail who embark or disembark at San Marco Station, (a station that would be placed west of the tracks right at Atlantic and the Florida East Coast). Passengers need the ability to step off the train and onto the Skyway for the downtown trip.

Why do Commuter Rail passengers have to disembark in San Marco?  Why can't they ride the rails on FEC over their bridge and get off directly at a Downtown station like the planned intermodal facility?  By the way, in your San Marco transfer scenario, the $ky-high-way requires two transfers, one to it at your San Marco station and one to another mode once Dowtown.  Why doesn't that bother you?  Commuter Rail can take you direct to the intermodal facility and would thus involve only one intermodal transfer Downtown.

Why would we force the South Jacksonville, St. Johns and St. Augustine passengers to ride across the river when we'd have stations at Avenues, Bay Meadows, JTB, University, South Jacksonville (San Marco) and across the river into Jacksonville Terminal. That would be the rail or transit equal to the JTA super garage that sits by the new Hilton with no entry or exit, unless you drive downtown and double back. Why would 4,000 Baptist Hospital workers want to ride past work and then change to ride back again? Ditto for the other 9,000 or so in the "Baptist - Atena - Pru" Corner.  BTW, SOUTH JACKSONVILLE had an FEC station from prior to Henry Flagler until about 1968, like near twin Yukon (NAS JAX) across the river on the CSX (former ACL) both locations are still on the timetables. It makes little sense to skip this stop by train, when Atlantic is the gateway to South Bank, San Marco, St. Nicholas, San Jose, Hogan and even the beaches via bus. Every Student at JU or FCCJ Beaches Campus, living south of the border would be using that station. Knowing San Marco, we'd even see a detailed reconstruction of the original gingerbread clapboard station I remember.  

QuoteNothing wrong with also having a Southside Streetcar Line, and BRT connections coming out of the same station... But Southside is not optimum for streetcar in the close in areas of San Marco-Downtown, due to two crossings of the Florida East Coast Railway Mainline. Until we spring for two highway underpasses, which will be below river level, totally doable however for perhaps twice the price of your $kyway!

Why can't the streetcars go up and over.  This may be cheaper than going under.  And, I can't believe it would cost anywhere near what the far bigger $ky-high-way would cost.  Consider, too, that the entire rest of the streetcar system is at grade and the $ky-high-way is entirely, or almost entirely, elevated making the system costs far more as well.

(http://www.oerm.org/pages/laurel_and_hardy.jpg)
Okay, STJR, we did it your way, Ooh, "That's Another Fine Mess You've Gotten Us Into!"

The Skyway TRAIN weighs in at right at 30,000 pounds, the older tiny 4 wheel streetcars of Jacksonville weighed in at about 25,000 pounds (so far so good on your economic bridge), however a 1970's vintage TTC - UTDC (Bombardier) streetcar - LIGHTER then LRT, weighs in at 82,000 pounds. I doubt the Skyway bridges would support them and also doubt a heavy girder, complex bridge over the FEC would be cheaper, as you've then either got to get over or under I-95, even with a 6% grade I don't think you'd have room to do it. Which takes us back under the FEC. The Skyway can and should be single beam monorail and THAT would be far cheaper then a mile long bridge and approaches, to clear both FEC tracks at 23.6 feet height.

(http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/maglev_wreck.jpg)
Just because the Skyway is over the traffic is no excuse to drive your truck down the track as this German found out.

QuoteThere are REASONS why I now support those 3 extensions on a system I have fought for at least 10 years:

RIVERSIDE AVENUE:
Skyway "central" carbarn and operations is already positioned to move the line down Riverside, and the right of way is already owned and preserved by the City. North Riverside is not streetcar friendly as both the grades, traffic, multiple merging and exit lanes and freeway speeds would play more to a bus, or trolley bus which has a bit of emergency radial mobility. So we take the Skyway at least to Forrest and connect it to other modes, ideally we tie the new insurance/financial buildings to the system and use the Skyway, Streetcar, BRT, Bus connecting area as an excuse to recycle and save Annie Lytle.

Ock, why so complicated here?  First, the Streetcars could use the very same right of way you claim is reserved for the $ky-high-way.  And, Riverside Avenue does not have "freeway speeds" or the complexity of traffic you protray to my knowledge.  Based on your own posted pictures of streetcars elsewhere, I don't see the widened Riverside Avenue as anything but streetcar friendly.  And, no reason streetcars can't connect to BRT's or buses if needed.  What advantage is there in introducing another mode of transit with the $ky-high-way when you are more than covered by less expensive, more flexible, and more street friendly and accessible options?

(http://www.siffblog.com/Wreck%2520-%2520Lloyd,%2520Haro%204-thumb.jpg)
Harold never could get the hang of that merging traffic on the Acosta!

The bridge on Riverside Avenue has very fast traffic in spite of the posted speeds, just look at the scars on the Jersey Barriers, their are ramps on and off of Water, Jefferson, Broad, Bay, Riverside and the Acosta. That's 6 merging roadways on top or bottom of a bridge. Bridges leave no room for error and neither do streetcars when they are in mixed traffic. 8% downgrade, 35 mph, Toyota = 1,900 pounds, Streetcar 86,000 pounds, trolley bus can swerve, streetcar can't... end of consideration for use. Do the math. Further how do you get the streetcar to Riverside without that bridge? Can't use Park either for two reasons, though somewhat easier to solve, they don't need to be addressed at all:

(http://www.seattlepi.com/dayart/20071030/450streetcar_49172_traffic.jpg)
"Hey white car dude? Get the HELL out of the way!"

1. Park/Lee Street Viaduct (PROPERLY CALLED THE LEE STREET VIADUCT) will have to come down and be raised to expand the passenger train terminal. Otherwise the whole yard will have to be put in a concrete tub (costing many times the bridge) to prevent flooding and a safety violation (which I am filing) with the FRA to prevent building rail platforms in a flood zone.

2. Even if Park is used as it appears on some JTA maps, the turn Northeast toward Riverside Ave cannot be effected until you reach a wide enough road - Forrest. The other roads to the Northeast are narrow and quite below the grade of Park Street involving about a 10% grade for perhaps 100' each.

3. This leaves me solid in the camp of the old MYRTLE AVE SUBWAY, Myrtle would pull Brooklyn developers West, infill would explode between the streetcar/Interstate and the Skyway/River. It also sets the stage to serve a very nice section of Durkeeville in the future.

Quote

QuoteSTADUIM EXTENSION:
Any new convention center on the city waterfront Courthouse/Hyatt/Landing area is going to need a direct link to Transportation Center and the Skyway is more then 1/2 way there. In fact even if it just extends the few blocks to Hyatt/Courthouse blocks it would do wonders for city connectivity. The Skyway has an almost unique ability (streetcars too but perhaps a slightly lesser degree) of punching right through the heart of a building like a convention center. Witness Disney's Atrium Hotel/Monorail. Finish it 3/4 of the way to the stadium is just as crazy, when we'd be in easy striking distance of the Randolph/Arena/Stadium/Park/Ball Field district. Imagine the ease of mobility the conventioneer's would report home after a trip to our city.

Ock, your own proposal shows streetcars far more networked throughout Downtown and the urban grid than the $ky-high-way.  Why wouldn't riders prefer the most networked option that provides the most convenience, efficiency, and flexibility?  The $ky-high-way is limited to a straight line travel through town for the most part.

In the end, an extensively networked and COMPLETE STREETCAR system can literally run circles around the $ky-high-way system, with or without an expansion, in my opinion.  That's my story and I'm stickin' with it. ;)

The Convention goers, will prefer which ever mode suits their purpose, The Skyway for a quick trip to a game or to the depot. The Streetcar to the Landing or 5-points or Park and King, The Commuter or regional rail from San Marco to St. Augustine, The JTA BRT to the Beaches, Amtrak or the Airlines to Orlando and MICKEY, Water Taxi to Ruth's Chris, and they'll take home thousands of rave reviews, stories and photos that we couldn't buy with all the money in the world. THE VERY NATURE OF GOOD TRANSIT IS "PRO CHOICE!"

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3194/2922746704_46664861ba.jpg)
Ooh Multi-Modal monorail and streetcars and buses. Oh My.

Actually what you saw was a hybrid of mine and JTA's consultants study, I favor a DUVAL - Lee - Water/Independence - Newnan - Beaver - Randolph - Duval, figure "8" in the core with extensions up Randolph to private right of way to Gateway. Also along Bay from Lee - Myrtle - Forrest - Riverside - 5-Points, Park/King - St. Vincents, and a Newnan - 1St - Main - 8Th - Blvd to the "S" line (The "S" would be a multi-modal station / as I would build in San Marco / Randolph / Annie Lytle).
Skyway, bus, train, streetcar, water craft would be seamless.

Since ALL Skyway Equipment rolls into Brooklyn Car barns and the switch as well as the stub for the spur is sitting there, we could use single beam, even some on the ground beam to get the Skyway down to Forrest. It would be great if we could prevail on the business community to get it on into Annie Lytle and do a REAL TOD out of it. Something unlike any city in the world. A MONORAIL station with vintage streetcars and modern buses in a station dating to the very early 1900's. UNREAL. Proximity to the full interchange at Forrest as well as the ramps at Park and I-95 would make it great for BRT as well. We're not asking to build the Santa Fe here, simply a mile to connect our lives PAST-PRESENT and FUTURE and create a monument to transit creativity world wide.  

THAT'S MY STORY AND I'LL FIGHT FOR IT TILL I ROLL THAT LAST MILE!  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 04, 2009, 12:53:23 AM
STJR: So, Lake, what, if any, objections would one have to replace Ock's proposed extension of the $ky-high-way with streetcar lines?

OCK: SAN MARCO EXTENSION:
The reason we cannot extend the Skyway with streetcar in the Southbank is it would require two transfers within a mile for passengers on Commuter Rail or Regional/Intercity Rail who embark or disembark at San Marco Station, (a station that would be placed west of the tracks right at Atlantic and the Florida East Coast). Passengers need the ability to step off the train and onto the Skyway for the downtown trip.

STJR: Why do Commuter Rail passengers have to disembark in San Marco?  Why can't they ride the rails on FEC over their bridge and get off directly at a Downtown station like the planned intermodal facility?  By the way, in your San Marco transfer scenario, the $ky-high-way requires two transfers, one to it at your San Marco station and one to another mode once Dowtown.  Why doesn't that bother you?  Commuter Rail can take you direct to the intermodal facility and would thus involve only one intermodal transfer Downtown.

OCK: Why would we force the South Jacksonville, St. Johns and St. Augustine passengers to ride across the river when we'd have stations at Avenues, Bay Meadows, JTB, University, South Jacksonville (San Marco) and across the river into Jacksonville Terminal. That would be the rail or transit equal to the JTA super garage that sits by the new Hilton with no entry or exit, unless you drive downtown and double back. Why would 4,000 Baptist Hospital workers want to ride past work and then change to ride back again? Ditto for the other 9,000 or so in the "Baptist - Atena - Pru" Corner.  BTW, SOUTH JACKSONVILLE had an FEC station from prior to Henry Flagler until about 1968, like near twin Yukon (NAS JAX) across the river on the CSX (former ACL) both locations are still on the timetables. It makes little sense to skip this stop by train, when Atlantic is the gateway to South Bank, San Marco, St. Nicholas, San Jose, Hogan and even the beaches via bus. Every Student at JU or FCCJ Beaches Campus, living south of the border would be using that station. Knowing San Marco, we'd even see a detailed reconstruction of the original gingerbread clapboard station I remember.

Ock, let me clarify my original response here.  What I was intending to say was why would people from the suburbs that are headed Downtown on a Commuter Rail disembark onto the $ky-high-way at a San Marco station when they could just stay on the Commuter Rail to the Downtown station?  I posed this question in response to your initial first quoted response above referencing two transfers, one of them being a transfer in San Marco.  I certainly would support a San Marco station at Atlantic and the FEC crossing for Commuter Rail but, again, I see no value to this same area being reached by a $ky-high-way expansion from the current Kings Road station.

QuoteOCK: Nothing wrong with also having a Southside Streetcar Line, and BRT connections coming out of the same station... But Southside is not optimum for streetcar in the close in areas of San Marco-Downtown, due to two crossings of the Florida East Coast Railway Mainline. Until we spring for two highway underpasses, which will be below river level, totally doable however for perhaps twice the price of your $kyway!

STJR: Why can't the streetcars go up and over.  This may be cheaper than going under.  And, I can't believe it would cost anywhere near what the far bigger $ky-high-way would cost.  Consider, too, that the entire rest of the streetcar system is at grade and the $ky-high-way is entirely, or almost entirely, elevated making the system costs far more as well.

OCK: The Skyway TRAIN weighs in at right at 30,000 pounds, the older tiny 4 wheel streetcars of Jacksonville weighed in at about 25,000 pounds (so far so good on your economic bridge), however a 1970's vintage TTC - UTDC (Bombardier) streetcar - LIGHTER then LRT, weighs in at 82,000 pounds. I doubt the Skyway bridges would support them and also doubt a heavy girder, complex bridge over the FEC would be cheaper, as you've then either got to get over or under I-95, even with a 6% grade I don't think you'd have room to do it. Which takes us back under the FEC. The Skyway can and should be single beam monorail and THAT would be far cheaper then a mile long bridge and approaches, to clear both FEC tracks at 23.6 feet height.

So now we are pushing for the $ky-high-way because it makes a good River and FEC Rail crossover device?  I can't believe engineers can't find a way to out maneuver this with streetcars!  First, regarding weight, I can't say you wrong, but common sense doesn't allow me to say you are right, that a streetcar HAS to weigh more than the $ky-high-way!  I would have to hear multiple opinions on that one to subscribe to this.  I would also think that advances in materials technologies since the 1970's era would very likely produce a dramatically different weight than what you cited.

As to street cars crossing the FEC, I appreciate your concerns but, again, somewhere on the Southbank, I would think we could find a way to make a streetcar cost and grade-wise effectively cross the FEC rails.  How about at the same spot you suggest that the $ky-high-way crosses them, alongside Kings Road?

QuoteOCK: There are REASONS why I now support those 3 extensions on a system I have fought for at least 10 years:

RIVERSIDE AVENUE:
Skyway "central" carbarn and operations is already positioned to move the line down Riverside, and the right of way is already owned and preserved by the City. North Riverside is not streetcar friendly as both the grades, traffic, multiple merging and exit lanes and freeway speeds would play more to a bus, or trolley bus which has a bit of emergency radial mobility. So we take the Skyway at least to Forrest and connect it to other modes, ideally we tie the new insurance/financial buildings to the system and use the Skyway, Streetcar, BRT, Bus connecting area as an excuse to recycle and save Annie Lytle.

STJR: Ock, why so complicated here?  First, the Streetcars could use the very same right of way you claim is reserved for the $ky-high-way.  And, Riverside Avenue does not have "freeway speeds" or the complexity of traffic you protray to my knowledge.  Based on your own posted pictures of streetcars elsewhere, I don't see the widened Riverside Avenue as anything but streetcar friendly.  And, no reason streetcars can't connect to BRT's or buses if needed.  What advantage is there in introducing another mode of transit with the $ky-high-way when you are more than covered by less expensive, more flexible, and more street friendly and accessible options?

OCK: The bridge on Riverside Avenue has very fast traffic in spite of the posted speeds, just look at the scars on the Jersey Barriers, their are ramps on and off of Water, Jefferson, Broad, Bay, Riverside and the Acosta. That's 6 merging roadways on top or bottom of a bridge. Bridges leave no room for error and neither do streetcars when they are in mixed traffic. 8% downgrade, 35 mph, Toyota = 1,900 pounds, Streetcar 86,000 pounds, trolley bus can swerve, streetcar can't... end of consideration for use. Do the math. Further how do you get the streetcar to Riverside without that bridge? Can't use Park either for two reasons, though somewhat easier to solve, they don't need to be addressed at all:

1. Park/Lee Street Viaduct (PROPERLY CALLED THE LEE STREET VIADUCT) will have to come down and be raised to expand the passenger train terminal. Otherwise the whole yard will have to be put in a concrete tub (costing many times the bridge) to prevent flooding and a safety violation (which I am filing) with the FRA to prevent building rail platforms in a flood zone.

2. Even if Park is used as it appears on some JTA maps, the turn Northeast toward Riverside Ave cannot be effected until you reach a wide enough road - Forrest. The other roads to the Northeast are narrow and quite below the grade of Park Street involving about a 10% grade for perhaps 100' each.

3. This leaves me solid in the camp of the old MYRTLE AVE SUBWAY, Myrtle would pull Brooklyn developers West, infill would explode between the streetcar/Interstate and the Skyway/River. It also sets the stage to serve a very nice section of Durkeeville in the future.

Ock, no problem with Myrtle Avenue.  But, a second route would be from the area near Water and Jefferson over the Federal Reserve Bank parking lot and the FEC tracks using a streetcar ONLY bridge.  This bridge would come down on Magnolia Street behind the $ky-high-way barn.  It could then proceed back to Riverside Avenue down Leila Street or Stonewall Street (which street could also feed it, or complete a loop, to Park Street). This avoids all the bridge clutter and Park Street issues you refer to.

QuoteOCK: STADUIM EXTENSION:
Any new convention center on the city waterfront Courthouse/Hyatt/Landing area is going to need a direct link to Transportation Center and the Skyway is more then 1/2 way there. In fact even if it just extends the few blocks to Hyatt/Courthouse blocks it would do wonders for city connectivity. The Skyway has an almost unique ability (streetcars too but perhaps a slightly lesser degree) of punching right through the heart of a building like a convention center. Witness Disney's Atrium Hotel/Monorail. Finish it 3/4 of the way to the stadium is just as crazy, when we'd be in easy striking distance of the Randolph/Arena/Stadium/Park/Ball Field district. Imagine the ease of mobility the conventioneer's would report home after a trip to our city.

STJR: Ock, your own proposal shows streetcars far more networked throughout Downtown and the urban grid than the $ky-high-way.  Why wouldn't riders prefer the most networked option that provides the most convenience, efficiency, and flexibility?  The $ky-high-way is limited to a straight line travel through town for the most part.

In the end, an extensively networked and COMPLETE STREETCAR system can literally run circles around the $ky-high-way system, with or without an expansion, in my opinion.  That's my story and I'm stickin' with it. ;)

OCK: The Convention goers, will prefer which ever mode suits their purpose, The Skyway for a quick trip to a game or to the depot. The Streetcar to the Landing or 5-points or Park and King, The Commuter or regional rail from San Marco to St. Augustine, The JTA BRT to the Beaches, Amtrak or the Airlines to Orlando and MICKEY, Water Taxi to Ruth's Chris, and they'll take home thousands of rave reviews, stories and photos that we couldn't buy with all the money in the world. THE VERY NATURE OF GOOD TRANSIT IS "PRO CHOICE!"

Ock, I just don't see why we need to parallel build the $ky-high-way with Streetcars or Commuter Rail.  Either of these latter options can service any expansion areas of the $ky-high-way better and they offer more options to travel to, or connect with, with less hassle and more convenience and accessibility.  It is for these reasons, I am pushing the demise of the $ky-high-way.

Lake and Ock, if the solution pictured below could be implemented, streetcars could easily cross the FEC rails.  Any reason this won't work?

(http://www.translationdirectory.com/images_articles/wikipedia/railroads/Railroad_crossing_at_grade_also_known_as_a_diamond.jpg)

Quote from: stjr on June 04, 2009, 11:58:30 PM
Ock, let me clarify my original response here.  What I was intending to say was why would people from the suburbs that are headed Downtown on a Commuter Rail disembark onto the $ky-high-way at a San Marco station when they could just stay on the Commuter Rail to the Downtown station?  I posed this question in response to your initial first quoted response above referencing two transfers, one of them being a transfer in San Marco.  I certainly would support a San Marco station at Atlantic and the FEC crossing for Commuter Rail but, again, I see no value to this same area being reached by a $ky-high-way expansion from the current Kings Road station.

I think perhaps it's time to tell you I think you see no value because you don't want to see a value in it? The value is, just in the "Baptist-Pru" corner of the Southbank, there are 9,000 employees. That many employees is more then equal to the population of many of our surrounding communities. That doesn't include the thousands more scattered from the new Hilton to the Prudential Building, Riverplace etc... ALL of these folks would be able to get off a northbound Amtrak/Regional/Commute train at the new SOUTH JACKSONVILLE (railroad name for San Marco at Atlantic) STATION. Walk across a platform and get on a ground level Skyway train that would whisk them north, then gain altitude, swing over the tracks and into HILTON STATION... KINGS AVENUE....RIVERPLACE.... SAN MARCO STATION.... or if they desire, on to CENTRAL, HEMMING, ROSA PARKS, BOA, HYATT/CONVENTION CENTER, BERKMAN, SHIPYARDS, RANDOLPH, STADIUM/PARKS. Only one ticket and no transfer needed for ticketed passengers. This Skyway link would be much cheaper then trying to engineer a streetcar crossing over or under the FEC.

Going over is a matter of distance on part of your look idea. Streetcars can handle short grades of up to 12% but a 6-8% grade (6%= a 6' foot climb for every 100 feet of travel) is about all one would desire for good operations. Not a problem you say? The reason the JTA PCT'S failed in San Marco is that the railroad is ALWAYS blocked with transfer freight trains. People got fired as they couldn't depend on the schedules to get back from lunch. A bridge for a 80,000 pound streetcar is a hell of a lot more money then one for a 30,000 pound single beam MONORAIL. In fact the whole extension could probably be built cheaper then your bridge. Consider the cost of the Kernan/Beach overpass, talk about $ky High... No engineer can figure it out? Did you know the City of South Jacksonville sued to have that underpass or overpass built in 1924? TRUE. The freeway sealed it's fate, it's just a no go.  

Quote from: stjr on June 04, 2009, 11:58:30 PM
So now we are pushing for the $ky-high-way because it makes a good River and FEC Rail crossover device?  I can't believe engineers can't find a way to out maneuver this with streetcars!  First, regarding weight, I can't say you wrong, but common sense doesn't allow me to say you are right, that a streetcar HAS to weigh more than the $ky-high-way!  I would have to hear multiple opinions on that one to subscribe to this.  I would also think that advances in materials technologies since the 1970's era would very likely produce a dramatically different weight than what you cited.

As to street cars crossing the FEC, I appreciate your concerns but, again, somewhere on the Southbank, I would think we could find a way to make a streetcar cost and grade-wise effectively cross the FEC rails.  How about at the same spot you suggest that the $ky-high-way crosses them, alongside Kings Road?

Man, you now doubt any facts I print? What is the point in this long discussion if you start tossing out this and that based on your own transit experience? Try these:
http://www.lightrail.com/carspecpages/toronto/alrv.htm  (LOOK UP THE WEIGHT add PASSENGER CAP)
http://www.mata.org/186specs.htm (Original Jacksonville type TURTLEBACK CAR weighs EMPTY 42,000 pounds )
http://www.lightrail.com/carspecpages/mbta/mbtatype8.htm (NEW BREDA STREETCARS add PASSENGER CAP)

If you still disagree, I can point you to entire catalogs of equipment...

Beyond that your latest photo post shows a classic railroad diamond, why would this at grade crossing work any better then JTA's PCT did? It would still have to wait on the train all the time, meaning no schedule regularity at all. The FEC trains are transfers on this segment and do NOT run on a regular schedule... (Oh I know, so go ahead and call them over at Bowden Yard).  

Quote from: stjr on June 04, 2009, 11:58:30 PMOck, no problem with Myrtle Avenue.  But, a second route would be from the area near Water and Jefferson over the Federal Reserve Bank parking lot and the FEC tracks using a streetcar ONLY bridge.  This bridge would come down on Magnolia Street behind the $ky-high-way barn.  It could then proceed back to Riverside Avenue down Leila Street or Stonewall Street (which street could also feed it, or complete a loop, to Park Street). This avoids all the bridge clutter and Park Street issues you refer to.

Sorry, but again weight and bulk would make for an expensive and LONG bridge that would have to clear the back fence at the FED at 23.6 feet and maintain this all the way to Magnolia. Also putting streetcar in a narrow street is bad karma man.
So you build your city block and a half long bridge, but the Skyway is already perched right in front of the TU and is already over the railroad yards and the Fed. So again for less then your streetcar bridge, we could get a single beam monorail all the way to Forest Street. The Skyway BTW is on the ground in front of the TU and the switch to Forest is no more then 6' feet or so high. It would be no more costly to build the Skyway on this segment either, both would come in very close and I am trying to get the streetcars beyond that railroad WITHOUT building a DAMN Thing! Duck under Myrtle as God Intended it back in 1919.

Quote from: stjr on June 04, 2009, 11:58:30 PMOck, I just don't see why we need to parallel build the $ky-high-way with Streetcars or Commuter Rail.  Either of these latter options can service any expansion areas of the $ky-high-way better and they offer more options to travel to, or connect with, with less hassle and more convenience and accessibility.  It is for these reasons, I am pushing the demise of the $ky-high-way.

NONE of the systems I have drawn would parallel, and each would use it's strongest points to vie for traffic. For example the Government is going to shut down the shuttle buses to the games. Skyways, won't be effected because by their nature they run automated and are trains. The Skyway down Bay is a straight shot and SPECIAL trains coming in from parking need not stop at all stations. Did you know our Skyway trains have been tested to 50 MPH? TRUE? (Okay, call Steve Arrington at JTA and ask). Now the streetcar to the stadium in ALL of my drawings uses a BEAVER/DUVAL route through the Cathedral District. Streetcars can't be bumped off the stadium shuttles because everyone knows our streetcars run on 5 minute headways on Weekends... Let some private bus operator try that trick. So we'd be feeding the stadium from the air (Skyway) the unused Beaver Street alignment over Hogans Creek or the JTA "TROLLEY" station by the Arena, which by the way would get REAL TROLLEYS! Meanwhile streetcars would come rolling down Randolph from Gateway Plaza. Water taxi's could serve the end of Randolph or the Shipyards docks... Just add private buses such as the highly rated Annett Lines (look them up too). We'd make NFL history as the FIRST CITY with streetcar, ship, monorail, bus and auto access and the media we would get would bring us fun things like SUPERBOWLS... and BIG CONVENTIONS... and maybe even the NBA, NL, AL, NHL, etc...

(Oh that last part IS OPINION so don't try and prove we can't do it.)  Sorry if I'm a bit harsh tonight, blame it on heavy medical tests starting early tomorrow morning somewhere in the Southside... If I'm still alive at 10 or 11am I'll jump back on.
Someone get me a barf bag. UCK!  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on June 05, 2009, 12:32:16 AM
Lake and Ock, if the solution pictured below could be implemented, streetcars could easily cross the FEC rails.  Any reason this won't work?

(http://www.translationdirectory.com/images_articles/wikipedia/railroads/Railroad_crossing_at_grade_also_known_as_a_diamond.jpg)

The FEC is too busy for an at-grade railroad crossing.  Your streetcar system would be totally unreliable due to frequent blockage by freight trains coming in and out of Bowden Yard.  This type of crossing would be an option for a seldom used freight line.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2009, 01:43:13 AM

Quote from: stjr on June 05, 2009, 12:32:16 AM
Lake and Ock, if the solution pictured below could be implemented, streetcars could easily cross the FEC rails.  Any reason this won't work?

(http://www.translationdirectory.com/images_articles/wikipedia/railroads/Railroad_crossing_at_grade_also_known_as_a_diamond.jpg)

The FEC is too busy for an at-grade railroad crossing.  Your streetcar system would be totally unreliable due to frequent blockage by freight trains coming in and out of Bowden Yard.  This type of crossing would be an option for a seldom used freight line.

QuoteOCK: Beyond that your latest photo post shows a classic railroad diamond, why would this at grade crossing work any better then JTA's PCT did? It would still have to wait on the train all the time, meaning no schedule regularity at all. The FEC trains are transfers on this segment and do NOT run on a regular schedule... (Oh I know, so go ahead and call them over at Bowden Yard).

Hmmm... Lake and Ock, why, then, doesn't that same FEC freight schedule serve as an obstacle for Commuter Rail proposed to operate on these same tracks?  As to streetcars, if they ran in a continuous loop (no schedule other than a target of x minutes in headways) all day long, what would be the big deal if they wait 5 minutes for a train to pass?  After all, buses (and ambulances for Baptist Hospital) face this same issue and I don't see us giving up on them.  As an aside, I haven't observed FEC trains actually stopping at these crossings with any regularity like they do at the Stockton Street crossings.

QuoteOCK: Sorry if I'm a bit harsh tonight, blame it on heavy medical tests starting early tomorrow morning somewhere in the Southside... If I'm still alive at 10 or 11am I'll jump back on.

Ock, I have a thick skin.  I can take a healthy discussion.  Speaking of healthy, your personal health is far more important than any discussions here and should be a reminder of keeping things in perspective.  Good luck with your tests and hope all goes well.  See ya' back soon.

Quote from: stjr on June 05, 2009, 02:05:45 AM
Hmmm... Lake and Ock, why, then, doesn't that same FEC freight schedule serve as an obstacle for Commuter Rail proposed to operate on these same tracks?

Because the actual FEC line would have to be upgraded and expanded to increase track capacity.  In other words, additional track running parallel to the FEC would need to be installed.  This is one of the main reasons we should push for an Amtrak expansion between Jax and Miami.  By doing that, Amtrak would cover a significant portion of the extra track infrastructure for passenger rail, thus reducing the local need to do this.

(http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/hudson-rail/images/1-train.jpg)
An example of increasing track capacity would be 3 or 4 tracks instead of the two currently in place.  Not adding more at-grade crossings.

QuoteAs to streetcars, if they ran in a continuous loop (no schedule other than a target of x minutes in headways) all day long, what would be the big deal if they wait 5 minutes for a train to pass?  After all, buses (and ambulances for Baptist Hospital) face this same issue and I don't see us giving up on them.  As an aside, I haven't observed FEC trains actually stopping at these crossings with any regularity like they do at the Stockton Street crossings.

Ock can provide his answer, but I've already stated that I'm not a fan of isolated transit components or loops.  Duplication means extra money spent in one neighborhood at the expense of another.  Whatever we should do should tie in nicely with the rest of an regional integrated transit system.  I don't think a streetcar loop around San Marco, that does not connect with any other form of rail, makes any kind of sense.  I also do not believe that FEC would ever go for allowing two streetcar at-grade crossings on their main line. 

The old PCT San Marco Trolley operated on that premise - no published schedule, just the goal of a bus every X minutes.  But with the FEC blocking the San Marco, Prudential, and Hendricks crossings for more than 5 minutes at a time (and yes, they do park there sometimes), schedule reliability was shot to hell, as Ock said.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2009, 07:10:21 AM
Because the actual FEC line would have to be upgraded and expanded to increase track capacity.  In other words, additional track running parallel to the FEC would need to be installed. 

Lake, adding the extra track to FEC would require expansion or rebuilding of its St. Johns River bridge, would it not?  This would be a huge project.  Also, does FEC have enough right of way through San Marco and Downtown to accommodate 3 or 4 tracks?

By the way, the Mayor was on WJCT/NPR 89.9 this morning saying the City does not have any plans to expand the $ky-high-way.  When it comes to mass transit, they believe there are better options.  And, Shwaz, I guess I am not the lone crier in Amsterdam you make me out to be.  :)

Mayor Peyton is on a roll with me: Likes JEA and Shipyards in public hands, working on reigning in police-fire pensions, and now on same page regarding the $ky-high-way.  Now, if we could just stop that Courthouse.....   

QuoteLake, adding the extra track to FEC would require expansion or rebuilding of its St. Johns River bridge, would it not?  This would be a huge project.  Also, does FEC have enough right of way through San Marco and Downtown to accommodate 3 or 4 tracks?

Yes, commuter rail will be a big investment, but cheaper than streetcar or skyway per mile.  It will reduce in cost if Amtrak brings service to the FEC, because Amtrak will fund a portion of the infrastructure needs.  Also, passenger trains will not require an expansion of the St. Johns River bridge and the FEC ROW is 100'.  That's more than enough for additional track. 

QuoteBy the way, the Mayor was on WJCT/NPR 89.9 this morning saying the City does not have any plans to expand the $ky-high-way.  When it comes to mass transit, they believe there are better options.  And, Shwaz, I guess I am not the lone crier in Amsterdam you make me out to be.   

Too bad for you he can't be mayor forever...

Quote from: Omarvelous09 on June 03, 2009, 06:04:05 PM
Ohh the SkyWay...
I remember when they opened it, i was a youngster and it looked like the greatest thing ever. After living in DC and Chicago the skyway didn't look all that awesome. It would be great to have an "L" or train transit..but realistically i don't think it would be greatly appreciated or used. Maybe if they extended it to just the urban areas (i.e. Shands, 5 points, and further into San Marco) and use the rest of the money to improve the bus system. I think if the bus system was quicker, ran more often and longer people wouldn't be so reluctant to ride.

JTA should bring the Skyway to Riverside, San Marco & Springfield and then stop there. They could run all the (southside, northside & westside) buses to each terminal station, instead of bringing them downtown. The buses would have less ground to cover and routes would be ran quicker.

On another note, its lame when people can not communicate on a thread using "fake lawyer" lingo. Just speak regular American English. I know there are a lot lawyers that hang on the site, but some of you are not lawyers lol so stop, you make yourself look corny lol.

I have a dumb question, those Hilton Hotels are they very far from Kings Avenue Station?? When they were building them they didn't look that far away. Just curious. Wondering if those are the only set of hotels near a transit station besides whats close to Riverplace Station.

This topic is interesting, few of my friends here in GA complain about Atlanta not having enough transit...they got 38 stations up here and they are always saying Chicago this, New York that, Their complaints are funny, they may not realize how other cities want more transit options as well. Jacksonville doesn't have to do everything at once, but pick a line and start something. East, Riverside or San Marco.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 03, 2009, 09:02:13 PM

We take those same buses and now run them from the nearest Rapid Transit Station to the local community, and we could double or triple the service with almost no effort. Wouldn't 20 minute headways beat the heck out of what we now have?

You get it my friend! Rock on. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

LOL is there an echo in here lol?? Ock I don't think you are a kook, someone emailed me a link to what General Motors, Firestone Tires and Co did to tram organizations across the country, how they got that law passed where Tram companies and Electric companies could not be under the same umbrella. They got convicted and only had to pay a 1 dollar fine. As a society we are still paying for that crime of greed. I remember you mentioning it a while back, I kinda thought you were fabricating that story....sadly it really did happen. Wonder what problems we wouldn't have if not for scam. 

Am visiting Atlanta for a few days... bought a 3 day MARTA pass and am attempting to use public transit the entire stay.  MARTA is great but have put more than a few miles on my feet!

(http://204.169.52.42/history/images/m3857.jpg)

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 06, 2009, 12:51:40 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 03, 2009, 09:02:13 PM

We take those same buses and now run them from the nearest Rapid Transit Station to the local community, and we could double or triple the service with almost no effort. Wouldn't 20 minute headways beat the heck out of what we now have?

You get it my friend! Rock on. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

LOL is there an echo in here lol?? Ock I don't think you are a kook, someone emailed me a link to what General Motors, Firestone Tires and Co did to tram organizations across the country, how they got that law passed where Tram companies and Electric companies could not be under the same umbrella. They got convicted and only had to pay a 1 dollar fine. As a society we are still paying for that crime of greed. I remember you mentioning it a while back, I kinda thought you were fabricating that story....sadly it really did happen. Wonder what problems we wouldn't have if not for scam. 

Your right my friend, no good deed goes unpunished! HA! Actually a few of the OIL, TIRE, and GM boys got more then a slap. The infamous photo I posted once that shows a flaming streetcar while two of the highway good ol' boys exchanging a huge check, standing in front of the fire. Both of those boys got prison time. If memory serves me they went up on conspiracy charges in Ohio and the big tire man got 15 years. California also filed and won legal action in it's own cases, but the fines were something like $5,000 per official. Meanwhile they trashed 1,200 miles of interurban (today's LRT) that blanketed the Los Angeles basin. They also got the YELLOW CARS of downtown Los Angeles, a huge narrow gauge system of electric trolleys that looked similar to the San Francisco Cable Cars.

Our own local "incentive" was GM gave us a "exclusive" new type of parts and distribution center, in exchange for selling our streetcars to their Motor Transit Company, which was owned by NATIONAL CITY LINES, owned by the conspirators.  Down in Tampa, nearly 10 years to the day, the streetcars quit rolling and the company actually didn't sell to conspiracy... BUT...Every city councilman got a brand new LaSalle (a sister of Cadillac) Automobile from GM.

The highway lobby was dirty then, and the courts proved it. They are no cleaner today, witness Gate, FDOT, TRI-RAIL, Sunrail, Skyway etc... We even have enemys of public transportation on this site, just follow the money.

OCKLAWAHA

(http://www.phillytrolley.org/2748rip/2006-01-21_pcc2748.jpg)

THE GREAT TRANSIT CONSPIRACY:

By the later years of the 1910s, demand for automobiles was basically flat. Ford’s Model T, first produced in 1908, had basically saturated the market (it would continue to be produced unitl 1927, by which time advances in technology made it obsolete). 1 There had been nothing in the automotive market to really fire the imagination since the introduction of the Ford-Edison partnership that promised an affordable battery-powered electric car, and public “recharge stations” to run them with. Henry Ford and Thomas Edison even went so far as to purchase Detroit Electric, a maker of battery-powered automobiles. This remarkable development captured the imagination of the popular press at the time, and with it, the attention of the public, and the executives of General Motors.

http://www.streetcarpress.com/essays/great_trillion-dollar_swindle.html

OCKLAWAHA

I never could understand why people in Jacksonville hate rail so much? Starting to think it is an american hatred for trains. 8 Stations for 1.3 million people. Maybe America needs higher gas prices again, to get the train snowball rolling.

QuoteI'm Originally From Jax and I'm moving back in 3 years. But have not lived in Jax from 25 years, I guess this means now that I'm somewhat of an outsider now. So, here my thought on extending the system. If they would just extend this thing to some places that matter... I.E. The sports complex, Metro park and San Marco. You would be surprised how fast ridership would go up. Every time I'm in Jax with someone new, I have to bring them on the skyway. Everyone Loves it and wishes they had one in their city! Jax HAS one, Just make it GO SOMEWHERES! Just my 2 cents!

Hemming Plaza
FSCJ
Main Library
Mosh
Friendship Park
Hilton Hotels
Covention Center
Treaty Oak Park
The Landing?
Times Union Center?


All these places are connected by the Skyway. Did I leave anything off?

It would great if the SPorts Complex, Five Points & San Marco square was on the list.

^the strand
the Penisular
Mortons
Ruth's Chris
River City Brewing
Sherwoods
Baptist Hospital
Prudential
The omni
AT&T building
Sun Trust Building
Gulf life tower
BOA tower
Modis Building
2 park and ride locations
The Westin (south bank is that right?)

Quote
If they would just extend this thing to some places that matter... I.E. The sports complex, Metro park and San Marco. You would be surprised how fast ridership would go up. Every time I'm in Jax with someone new, I have to bring them on the skyway. Everyone Loves it and wishes they had one in their city! Jax HAS one, Just make it GO SOMEWHERES! Just my 2 cents!

Amen and heck yes! 
1. Down to Everbank/Fidelity
2. Extend to Jackson Square, after
3. Extend to San Marco Square/Atlantic Blvd.
4. Down Bay Street w/ a stop near the Mark's strip/Berkman, then A. Phillip Randolph & the Sports complex.

Hell, just extending the thing down Bay Street to the stadium/complex would quintuple the ridership numbers in one year.

Blow it up and be done with it

Quote from: civil42806 on July 02, 2009, 08:52:39 AM
Blow it up and be done with it

I couldn't agree more!  It is a blight, expensive to build, not easy to use, and leads some folk to believe that Jacksonvillites are anti-rail when really we are anti-Skyway. 

Quote from: lindab on July 02, 2009, 10:18:37 AM

Quote from: civil42806 on July 02, 2009, 08:52:39 AM
Blow it up and be done with it

I couldn't agree more!  It is a blight, expensive to build, not easy to use, and leads some folk to believe that Jacksonvillites are anti-rail when really we are anti-Skyway. 

minor point...its ALREADY BUILT!

We could dismantle it and use it all to build up the offshore reefs, then it would have more ridership from car to car in fish than it ever had in people! :-)

Quote from: civil42806 on July 02, 2009, 08:52:39 AM
Blow it up and be done with it

The only problem with that is since this thing was almost entireley built with federal money, if we demolish it, we have to pay back all the federal money which is hundreds of millions of dollars. So, as you can see, this is not an option. Hopefully it will be built out and we can grow into it.

Try to remember the most expensive part is done. 

Quote from: Dapperdan on July 02, 2009, 01:46:20 PM

Quote from: civil42806 on July 02, 2009, 08:52:39 AM
Blow it up and be done with it

The only problem with that is since this thing was almost entirely built with federal money, if we demolish it, we have to pay back all the federal money which is hundreds of millions of dollars. So, as you can see, this is not an option. Hopefully it will be built out and we can grow into it.

Just because the Fed's paid most of it doesn't mean it has to stand forever. At some point, it could be torn down.  We are going on over 20 to 25 years of this fiasco.  Enough is enough.  It was a Federal experiment that failed and we should not have to continue it on.  I am sure Corrine Brown and other politico's could unwind any such obligations if they even really exist (I have never heard this pay back position from official sources).  Further, it may be cheaper to pay off any such debt than have us locals pay $4 to $5 million a year in subsidies and suffer the indignity of its blight on Downtown.  And, I agree with others, the $ky-high-way has played a major role in turning Jax citizens off of rail mass transit.  That is perhaps its biggest "cost".

Ironic, that a city that is so relentlessly efficient in tearing down its beautiful historic structures and history wouldn't have the fortitude to tear down its real white elephant!

Two questions are raised at this juncture:

1.  Why are detractors so hell-bent on taking this thing down?
2.  If it ever comes to pass that it's extended, to actual destinations, and the ridership does indeed increase, would the detractors still be hell-bent on tearing it down?

Quote from: Doctor_K on July 09, 2009, 12:35:56 PM
Two questions are raised at this juncture:

1.  Why are detractors so hellbent on taking this thing down?
2.  If it ever comes to pass that it's extended, to actual destinations, and the ridership does indeed increase, would the detractors still be hellbent on tearing it down?

Dr. K, to answer your questions, you must first appreciate the long and sordid history of manipulation, lies, misstatements, contrived studies, overestimates, political arm twisting, hollow promises, wishful thinking, misplaced hopes, etc. that were used to get the $ky-high-way pork barrel project WRONGFULLY built to begin with.  This same folly of a process was AGAIN utilized to EXPAND it once before only to again FAIL miserably.

Now, once you understand this history, you can appreciate that any and all arguments and processes currently proferred today for yet ANOTHER extension have ALL been previously made to get us into the hell hole mess already built.  So, why should we fall in the same trap a third time?  Cost and traffic estimates for potential extensions will once again prove to be pure speculations designed to get said extensions built at any cost and will defy all common sense and reality.  Once extended, these extension advocates will be nowhere to be found and the taxpayers will be hung with more decades of multimillion dollar subsidies of an enlarged albatross no one really wants to keep.

Dr. K, the real question you should be asking is why are the proponents so hellbent on not only saving the $ky-high-way, but making the problem worse by expanding it?  Don't miss my point that a dollar spent on the $ky-high-way is a dollar or more taken from other mass transit projects.  The $ky-high-way has also served to drain all the political capital of other mass transit projects from this community.  A true lover of mass transit would desire a prioritization of funding for those projects that give us the most bang for the buck.  In other threads, we have long ago established that the $ky-high-way system ranks at the bottom of cost effectiveness.  There is only one answer to all these questions:  Get over it and move on.

QuoteDr. K, the real question you should be asking is why are the proponents so hellbent on not only saving the $ky-high-way, but making the problem worse by expanding it?

The Skyway, in its current state, is pretty much going to be relegated to failure for its entire existence.  However, I don't think tearing it down is the answer.  If the Skyway were expanded AND integrated into a comprehensive transit system it could be very successful.  Right now it is somewhat isolated.  If it could be tied into another system (streecar, for example), I think that it would be quite a benefit to our city.  Especially if it was extended to the stadium.   

Quote from: stjr on July 09, 2009, 12:22:48 PM
Just because the Fed's paid most of it doesn't mean it has to stand forever. At some point, it could be torn down.  We are going on over 20 to 25 years of this fiasco.  Enough is enough.  It was a Federal experiment that failed and we should not have to continue it on.  I am sure Corrine Brown and other politico's could unwind any such obligations if they even really exist (I have never heard this pay back position from official sources).  Further, it may be cheaper to pay off any such debt than have us locals pay $4 to $5 million a year in subsidies and suffer the indignity of its blight on Downtown.  And, I agree with others, the $ky-high-way has played a major role in turning Jax citizens off of rail mass transit.  That is perhaps its biggest "cost".

Except that there are very few "local" dollars being spent on the Skyway....funding for operations and maintenance comes from State and Federal funding formulas....so even if the thing is torn down, the money gets spent anyway....BY/FOR ANOTHER CITY!

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 09, 2009, 01:56:13 PM

Quote from: stjr on July 09, 2009, 12:22:48 PM
Just because the Fed's paid most of it doesn't mean it has to stand forever. At some point, it could be torn down.  We are going on over 20 to 25 years of this fiasco.  Enough is enough.  It was a Federal experiment that failed and we should not have to continue it on.  I am sure Corrine Brown and other politico's could unwind any such obligations if they even really exist (I have never heard this pay back position from official sources).  Further, it may be cheaper to pay off any such debt than have us locals pay $4 to $5 million a year in subsidies and suffer the indignity of its blight on Downtown.  And, I agree with others, the $ky-high-way has played a major role in turning Jax citizens off of rail mass transit.  That is perhaps its biggest "cost".

Except that there are very few "local" dollars being spent on the Skyway....funding for operations and maintenance comes from State and Federal funding formulas....so even if the thing is torn down, the money gets spent anyway....BY/FOR ANOTHER CITY!

Tufsu, two thoughts:  One, can you cite a source for the formula and/or specific origin of the subsidies showing local versus outside funding you refer to, and two, can you address the question of whether that same outside money could be redirected to subsidizing other, more cost effective, mass transit projects in Jax rather than be redirected elsewhere?

Thanks.

Stjr:
I'll redirect the question in a similar vain back to you. 

If we can establish a rail network, as has been proposed/seen on other threads within this forum, that included the Skyway into the overall network and thus made it instantly relevant, would you still want to tear it down?

Stjr...transit operations funds come from many sources...and can be spent in many ways...so yes, the $ being spent on the Skyway could be shifted to other mass transit like buses, light rail, streetcar, etc.

Just remember that we have to find the capital money to build the new systems first.

If we tear the Skyway down, we owe the Feds all their money back.

I don't think we should tear the skyway down, I think we should improve on what's already there, i.e., refurbish and overhaul the existing system and then expand it to other areas, but do this in a smart way taking into consideration what is really needed transportation-wise around Jacksonville and also complement the skyway with the existing JTA transportation bus system.  Don't agree with tearing down and rebuilding...to me that's a waste of money, time, etc.

Heights Unknown

The Skyway is to be closed on Saturdays, to run weekdays only starting in September  :-\

QuoteA series of changes is on the way for transportation service in Jacksonville.


The Jacksonville Transportation Authority has unveiled tentative changes to bus routes in Jacksonville that will keep larger buses out of residential neighborhoods. It also wants to discontinue Skyway service on Saturday.


Under the plans what would take effect on Sept. 7, service with the bigger, 40-seat buses that are about 35 feet long will be scaled back, and smaller, 20-seat shuttles that are about 25 feet long will be introduced into about a half-dozen neighborhoods. The smaller buses also provide para-transit service, usually called JTA Connexion.


The Skyway schedule would be cut to weekdays only because of low ridership.


These plans are tentative and could be changed. JTA will conduct two public meetings today  at the FCCJ downtown campus to get feedback.


The Times-Union spoke to JTA service planning manager Kent Stover  and JTA spokesman Mike Miller about the proposed changes.


What is JTA planning to do?


JTA will introduce shuttle service to the areas around Cecil Commerce Parkway, the Northside, Orange Park, Mandarin, Broward Road, and Southside and the Beaches. These shuttles will remain in specific neighborhoods and not go from one part of the city to another, like the larger buses do now.


One shuttle was previously introduced in 2008, in Arlington, and that has been a success. So JTA is moving forward with more shuttles.


What if a person wants to take a bus from the Beaches to Mandarin?


You will need to take the larger buses. However, each of the smaller shuttle buses will have a connection point that will allow you to get on the bigger buses. For example, the Broward Road shuttle will let people out at the Highlands Square Shopping Center on Dunn Avenue, where you can get on larger buses that will take you to other parts of town.


How much will these shuttles cost and when will they be running?


The shuttles cost the same as the regular buses: A regular fare is $1; senior citizens ride for free. You can also purchase a monthly pass for $40, a weekly pass for $12 and several discount booklets. For an extra 50 cents, you can call ahead and the bus will deviate from its route to take you to another location, assuming it’s not too far off of the existing route. You must call JTA at least two hours before getting on the bus for this to happen.


Will any existing bus routes change?


Six existing routes will see modifications. Most of these modifications will keep the bus routes out of residential neighborhoods. For example the B-6 route on the Westside now ends at the FCCJ Cecil Center. Because a shuttle will be operating in that area as of Sept. 7, the B-6 route will now end at Old Middleburg Road and 103rd St.


Other routes that will see modifications are the AR-3 in Arlington, NS-2 and NS-14 on the Northside and the SS-6 and SS-8 on the Southside. All the modifications will be detailed at today’s public meetings.


What about the Skyway?


The Skyway will stop operating on Saturdays after Sept. 5, except during special events. The people mover now runs from 1-7 p.m. on Saturdays, but JTA has decided to discontinue Saturday service because of low ridership. It does not run on Sundays and now will operate only on weekdays from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m.


How can people give feedback on this before Sept. 7?


JTA will be taking feedback at today’s meetings. If the community opposes any part of this plan, JTA will look into making changes before Sept. 7. People who cannot attend these meetings can also contact JTA by calling 630-3153 or by e-mailing Kent Stover at kstover@jtafla.com.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-07-22/story/jta_bus_shuttles_coming_for_neighborhoods

Another step to making the Skyway successful?

btw...maybe JTA could do some upgrades to their bus system if the fares wasn't so low....I mean, I paid $1 per ride and $48 per month for a transit pass in Philly in 1991!

Sorry but there is no way you can make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.  Terminate this abomination and lets move on.  I have no objection to properly managed mass transit, but this isn't it.  Please spare me the rail discussions, this website has turned into a train fetish site.

You would be amazed to find out what you can do with pig ears.  You may not want to read the site tomorrow.  The front page article will feature a pretty impressive Jacksonville related rail update.

Welcome, newbie.

I would not mind scrapping the Skyway in favor of developing better transit, but what happens if we do get rid of it?  It is my understanding that the federal government would not take to kindly to us eliminating the Skyway.  Is it not true that the feds would be reluctant to send future funding to our mass transit if we went ahead an killed the Skyway?  I remember reading about this in the Times-Union...

Yes it's true. We would also have to pay the feds back their investment in building it. After, like the Big Dig, they paid for most of it.

oh btw regarding the current "not allowed" status of bikes on the monorail.
just walk it up the escalator/ or ride the elevator.
ignore the empty booming voice from the ghost town 'portico'
roll on and claim ignorance when the JTA badged individual greets you at your stop with an assistant holding cuffs.
This was my most recent experience riding the confounded contraption over the river from SanMarco to Sprringfield.
Oh?
wait.  hold it a tic.
that's right - it doesn't go to either of those places. hmm