Re-evaluating the Skyway

[stjr]

STJR everyone knows your against the skyway and everyone knows why your against the skyway... but you're at a forum where the majority of posters supports the skyway expansion whether it's before or after commuter rail lines are established and even if the original skyway plan is complete.

I once saw 2 people picketing and preaching the "good word" right in the middle of the red-light district in Amsterdam. You & Mtrain remind me of those people.

Shwaz, so, because I am outnumbered, I am wrong?  I don't think so.  Nor will I give up my advocacy as long as you and others don't give up yours.  This is a DISCUSSION board, last I checked, not a ONE WAY street.

You should also be aware that, as slanted as the discussion here may be for expanding the $ky-high-way, the discussion, amongst the public I know is fully the opposite.  Should MJ posters give up because, in the big scheme, they are possibly a tiny minority?  Maybe it is you and your brethren who are the "good word" people in Amsterdam! 

P.S. As previously stated, I think some proponents are not being realistic as to resources and political capital for the $ky-high-way.  Sorry to bust your bubble, but someone needs to be grounded here.

[Steve]

While I disagree with Stjr, that doesn't necessarily make me right, and him wrong.  I believe it to be right however

[Shwaz]

STJR everyone knows your against the skyway and everyone knows why your against the skyway... but you're at a forum where the majority of posters supports the skyway expansion whether it's before or after commuter rail lines are established and even if the original skyway plan is complete.

I once saw 2 people picketing and preaching the "good word" right in the middle of the red-light district in Amsterdam. You & Mtrain remind me of those people.

Shwaz, so, because I am outnumbered, I am wrong?  I don't think so.  Nor will I give up my advocacy as long as you and others don't give up yours.  This is a DISCUSSION board, last I checked, not a ONE WAY street.

You should also be aware that, as slanted as the discussion here may be for expanding the $ky-high-way, the discussion, amongst the public I know is fully the opposite.  Should MJ posters give up because, in the big scheme, they are possibly a tiny minority?  Maybe it is you and your brethren who are the "good word" people in Amsterdam! 

P.S. As previously stated, I think some proponents are not being realistic as to resources and political capital for the $ky-high-way.  Sorry to bust your bubble, but someone needs to be grounded here.

stjr - I'm not saying you're wrong or that out-n-about people aren't against skyway expansion... but this thread is about re-evaluating the skyway. The purpose of the discussion is to brain storm new cost effective lines, station's, operation etc. which is a subject that a lot of metro jax is well versed on. Your post's in this thread don't offer anything new... it's the same anti "$ky-highway" points you've been preaching forever and this imo isn't the right thread. Why not start an anti-skyway thread and keep your “not wrong” jargin there? You can post link's and articles of similar transit systems elsewhere that have failed miserably further proving your point.

I agree.   Masses of people agreeing on something doesnt make it right, Schwaz.  How else to explain the popularity of Brittney Spears, Debbie Gibson, Adam Ant, or Backstreet Boys?

[stjr]

stjr - I'm not saying you're wrong or that out-n-about people aren't against skyway expansion... but this thread is about re-evaluating the skyway. The purpose of the discussion is to brain storm new cost effective lines, station's, operation etc. which is a subject that a lot of metro jax is well versed on.

Any "reevaluation" of the $ky-high-way that does not consider putting it and us out of our collective misery is not a full reevaluation.  To presuppose that expansion is viable is not an evaluation, it's an ASSUMPTION.

While Ock does an admirable job of summing up the proponents position, all the "points" (or "fantasies") of many posters on this thread have been expressed numerous times elsewhere on MJ.  This thread amounts to a compendium of all those points.  There is nothing here that is ground breaking.  In fact, many of the posters points are so predictable, I provided you previously with a satirical $ky-high-way poll with a synopsis of all the proponents' standard "excuses" for expanding the system. 

Without statistics/input  from traffic polls, cost estimates, studies, demographics, construction designs, ALTERNATIVE SYSTEMS, demolition contractors, financial projections, rights of way, environmental, neighborhood and business district property owners, etc. no one can take any of these "ideas" to another level.  As such, this "discussion" is more like a stuck needle on a record player for those old enough to remember such things.

And, why would I want to have an "anti-thread"?  My goal is to talk with the heathens, the unconverted, not those who have already come to the good side!

[brainstormer]

Where do you live again stjr?  Because in my group of friends in my part of town, we all want it expanded and more usable.

[stjr]

Where do you live again stjr?  Because in my group of friends in my part of town, we all want it expanded and more usable.

I live in Duval County which makes me a stockholder in the $ky-high-way with all your fellow citizens.  As such, all our opinions count equally.

Here is Ock's suggestion for expansion: 



Which of these expansion areas do you live in?  Unless you live in one of the recent Downtown or Southbank projects, my guess is you very likely don't live in any of them.  If your friends are in the same situation, I can already see their enthusiasm diminishing.  Let them know that to make the $ky-high-way of greater use, everytime they go near Downtown, they need to transfer from their car to one of the terminal nodes and ride in from there.  Now provide your friends with a list of numerous transportation modes and solutions to "serve" them and the relative operating costs of these solutions to taxpayers.  Add that the higher the operating costs the less they will get in other City services due to the need to increase subsidies to the transit projects implemented.  If you fully inform them of the trade offs, my guess is that the $ky-high-way will be near the bottom of the list.  It's easy to want something when the cost of getting it or other alternatives are not considered. 

That's what's wrong today with our economy.  Let's buy the first thing we see and somehow the money to pay for it will drop from the sky. 

[Ocklawaha]

Skyway Wisdom from Moma Cass Elliot... Ahh To Be Back In The Day!

Nobody can tell ya
There's only one song worth singing
They may try and sell ya
Cause it hangs them up to see someone like you
But you've gotta make your own kind of music
Sing your own special song
Make your own kind of music
Even if nobody else sings along
You're gonna be nowhere
The loneliest kind of lonely
It may be rough going
Just to do your thing's the hardest thing to do
But you've gotta make your own kind of music
Sing your own special song

OCKLAWAHA

[Coolyfett]

  Because in my group of friends in my part of town, we all want it expanded and more usable.

I hear ya. Sounds like you have progressive friends. Hopefully Jax will eventually get its act together on transit OPTIONS.

[Coolyfett]

I used to live in Five Point/Riverside area, that is/was ,my main reason for supporting the Skyway, of course if I lived in Julington Creek or Orange Park then I would be a skyway hater as well. The site is called METRO Jacksonville, but I guess the RURAL Jacksonville opinion can be expressed as well. If this site was highlighting the horse track on Normandy and lakes in Yulee, Id probably never have signed up for it. LUCKY, its about the Urban Core, the best part of any major metro city. Keyword METRO. Unfortunately I don't see city leadership seeing the importance of having another transit option beside the automobile anytime soon. I honestly don't expect another Skyway station to be built til 2039, by then Ill be 59 and probably wont even want to be in the metro area of any city......Id become a turtle.

[Ocklawaha]

Oh but I digress, to previous arguments. Some of you that continue to insist the Skyway come to your driveway before you justify it, you lack vision. In Mass Transit "MIX SELLS", and the Skyway as I propose it is only one of the many choices I'd like to introduce to our city over the next 20 years. Somewhere in that time, twill be my time to roll into the great carbarn of eternity and pull down the pole... But between now and then, Good Lord willing, I'm planning to make a lot of noise.

The Skyway is just a small center piece. Look at the commuter rail for example, I'm planning on moving to St. Augustine in a few weeks and when I do, oh my, I could ride into town on the JTA-FEC-Link and/or AMTRAK, and step off in the South Jacksonville station in order to go to the library, the landing or visit friends at The Strand, or catch a dinner at Ruth's Chris. No car involved, unless you count the Sun Bus, (St Augustine's booming and record breaking community transit system). Just me and 60,000 other folks a day rolling in from the South Side of the City to various points in town. JTA also plans links to STJTC the Beaches and JTB office areas, and these may well be LIGHT RAIL!

In fact, I have it on good authority that some of my railroad friends are spending some time with our Buddy's from DOT, and JTA. Just today the Governor was in town to sign off on JTA becoming regional.

The president is looking for shovel ready plans and we're deep in our Commuter Rail Study Already, the State could exempt AMTRAK/FEC from having to do a completely new study and fling open that door on a moments notice (IF WE'D JUST PUSH A BIT HARDER), this same service will almost hand us the Southside Commuter Rail line. The Skyway has some older plans and studies to the Stadium, Riverside, and Shands, I'll have to ask about San Marco, but that hole between the new Hilton and Parking Garage speaks volumes... Want free money to get a small part of this moving, JUST ASK! Part of our Skyway could be expanding about as fast as our Streetcar could. Streetcar is a very real study and I know a number of guys REALLY behind that effort too. For all the hell I dish out to COJ and JTA I wouldn't be here picking on them if I didn't love this City and the people that live here.

I can't tell you guys everything I know about this stuff as it might present a threat to some of our best friends. Just trust me when I tell you, screwed up as the recent HSR/FRA/AMTRAK thing was with COJ and JTA, that our Transit "Authority" is not DEAD, nor are they out of the game.


Doesn't look so naked now does it?

OCKLAWAHA

[Shwaz]

As such, this "discussion" is more like a stuck needle on a record player for those old enough to remember such things.

Why not let this group just spin it's wheels then? You obviously believe that majority of the city is behind you and against skyway expansion, that no one here discussing & re-evaluating the skyway can make a difference.
Why are you so hard up to change the minds of all these peons who pose no threat to your ideals?

[JeffreyS]

A great vision for what could be. I was hoping for the streetcar line to be on Riverside Ave. 

[stjr]

As such, this "discussion" is more like a stuck needle on a record player for those old enough to remember such things.

Why not let this group just spin it's wheels then? You obviously believe that majority of the city is behind you and against skyway expansion, that no one here discussing & re-evaluating the skyway can make a difference.
Why are you so hard up to change the minds of all these peons who pose no threat to your ideals?

Shwaz, look in the mirror. I ask you, "Why are you so hard up to change the minds of all these peons who pose no threat to your ideals?"   (Remember, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.)

Let me be clear, I don't begrudge those who advocate for the $ky-high-way's expansion, I just don't agree with them on the subject.

Why is this such an emotional "hot button" for some?  Shwaz, when you can't put on the table a coherent, factually based, and/or rational discussion to support your case and/or rebut mine, but rather resort to emotional pleas of "just go away and leave us alone if you don't agree with us", you are giving my case a big boost in the eyes of those who may remain undecided.  Thank you.  P.S. That also won't get you an "A" from a debate teacher.

[stjr]

A great vision for what could be. I was hoping for the streetcar line to be on Riverside Ave. 

Here is a novel idea:  Why not give JeffreyS and I what we both want? Run the STREETCARS everywhere there is YELLOW, i.e. in lieu of the $ky-high-way being expanded!  That would give the streetcar grid exponential flexibility in routing and great a toe hold for loops through San Marco, the Southbank, and maybe even St. Nicholas and Lakewood.  You would also get streetcars down "historic" Bay Street.  Now that would be a plan I could support. 

[thelakelander]

Would you have an isolated streetcar line on the Southbank or are you suggesting to build another river crossing?