Metro Jacksonville

I'm gonna just start using this thread to update changes to JIA's available routes.

After pulling out of UST (St Augustine) Frontier is now introducing 4 seasonal routes out of JAX. None of them are new routes but it's definitely an increase in capacity, options and will likely lead to more competitive pricing. All routes begin next spring to CIN, DEN, ORD and PHL.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/frontier-airlines-adds-new-jacksonville-flights

This brings JAX up to 8 Mainline Carriers + Silver Airways and 2 ULCCs.

I tend to fly with Southwest or Allegiant. What should I know ahead of time, if I were to book a flight with Frontier?

Quote from: jaxrox on November 30, 2017, 11:19:17 PM
I tend to fly with Southwest or Allegiant. What should I know ahead of time, if I were to book a flight with Frontier?

I have never flown Frontier so I can't tell ya from experience, but I'm sure it is much closer to Allegiant than Southwest. It's an ultra LCC like Allegiant and Spirit, very much no-frills and a la carte pricing, but as far as I know it doesn't have the reputation for safety concerns that Allegiant has had.

Does JIA offer direct flights to Seattle? If not is that something Jax will likely work on since Mayor Curry sent Amazon a proposal for HQ2? 

I'm sure JIA is constantly working on getting as many flights as it can, particularly in unserved markets. They've shown that they are frequently in contact with airlines but there's only so much they can do. They can't magically produce numbers that aren't there and they can't really subsidize airlines...at least not to that extent.

Anyway I havent checked the latest numbers but I'm pretty sure that even with a fully built out HQ2 with 50k Amazon employees in Jax there still wouldn't be enough demand for daily nonstops to SEA. Maybe they could work out some creative solution for some kind of infrequent nonstop service, but I'm really not holding my breath. JAX-LAX is much closer to being feasible.

Jax to Lax would be amazing.

JAX-LAX could happen again. It's JAX's largest market that isn't served (which considering LA is the number 2 market that isn't saying much). But, apparently JAX is LA's largest unserved market according to JAA about a month ago. Delta tried the route in the 2009 timeframe, but it failed-couldn't full the plane. They used a 737, which I believe is the smallest plane they'd put on the route (though now they might be able to use an A319 now that Northwest has long been integrated. There is also the decision on whether or not the LAX-JAX leg is a redeye like Delta tried. Personally, not a fan of a domestic red eye (the flight isn't long enough to me).

The only way I see a JAX-SEA route is if Delta does it (SEA a Delta hub and is one of their Pacific gateways) or Alaska enters the market. A Seattle destination alone wouldn't do it; there would have to be some connecting traffic. Though, there must not be a huge market in JAX for those connecting to smaller western cities, or Delta would try a JAX-SLC flight, which is a much larger Delta hub and a lot more logical for folks connecting out west.

I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

Quote from: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

It wouldn't really be-ATL has a direct to their hubs in ATL/NYC (both LGA AND JFK which are both hubs)/DTW/MSP as well as a nonstop to Boston. All have their place in the Network.

Quote from: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

Quote from: TimmyB on December 02, 2017, 08:00:58 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

It depends on the scheduling and how the hubs are banked.

Great video on how airlines schedule flights, which helps to explain pricing (especially flights to South America):

How Airlines Schedule Flights by Wendover Productions:
https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA (https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA)

Great Youtube channel btw^

Quote from: TimmyB on December 02, 2017, 08:00:58 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

I tend to agree. However, the only benefit would be if this was an early flight to SLC. Whenever I fly out west, I prefer the earliest flight possible that will have me on the ground before 11am west coast time. So, I have a much better chance getting to my destinations early if I'm already out west.

Quote from: Sonic101 on December 02, 2017, 09:52:00 PM

Quote from: TimmyB on December 02, 2017, 08:00:58 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

It depends on the scheduling and how the hubs are banked.

Great video on how airlines schedule flights, which helps to explain pricing (especially flights to South America):

How Airlines Schedule Flights by Wendover Productions:
https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA (https://youtu.be/dGXahSnA_oA)

Great Youtube channel btw^

Cool video!  I first realized that some airlines did this banking (didn't know it was called that!) when I flew to Australia in 2006.  It was impossible to fly from one city to another, other than this little two hour window.  ALL the planes left right then, which meant you couldn't get to your next stop early in the day.

Quote from: TimmyB on December 02, 2017, 08:00:58 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

Better flexibility. For example ATL to Portland OR has only 3 non stops and SLC to Portland has 6. Plus I am sure there are places served by SLC that you cannot fly to non stop from ATL. Example is several places in Idaho such as Twin Falls, Boise.

Quote from: TimmyB on December 02, 2017, 08:00:58 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on December 02, 2017, 02:28:56 PM
I believe a JAX SLC would work. I guess Delta doesn't want to rob ATL.

I'm not seeing the value, here.  What's the difference if I take a short JAX-ATL flight, followed by a long flight to ANY airport out west, or a long JAX-SLC followed by a short to ANY airport?  Either way, two flights, one long and one short.  I don't see how Delta (or any other airline) would say this would plug any holes.

Answered already, but many small/midsize airports are not serviced by Delta from Atlanta. Reno and Boise are great examples, which is only serviced seasonally from Atlanta and MSP. The only year-round service is from SLC, meaning it's a two stop itinerary. In addition, there might be only 1 flight from ATL in a day to some of those, versus 3-4 from SLC.

OK, those ideas make sense.  Thanks!

Quote from: jaxrox on November 30, 2017, 11:19:17 PM
I tend to fly with Southwest or Allegiant. What should I know ahead of time, if I were to book a flight with Frontier?

From what I understand, Frontier makes Spirit, Allegient, et al, look pretty damn good. Another poster on this forum, when visiting me last weekend, said this about Frontier: ´it was our worst nightmare, like flying in prison´ and ´would rather have taken a Greyhound bus from Cali to Jax´

I´m one of those who, when flying economy, doesn´t mind the difference between an ULCC, a LCC, or a regular old legacy carrier like DL UA AA....

BUT...the horror stories coming out of Frontier make me think: never, under any circumstances, fly them.

Wish I had better news, but I do trust this guys opinion (and I do work in the travel business - all my colleagues seem to say the same thing).

I flew Frontier back in August MCO-DEN for last minute work trip.   I had no issues, other than the slimline seats that many carriers are going to now days.  4 hrs in those seats is about all I can handle.   Other than that, knowing how an ULCC works I had no issues.  I did pay extra for the "works" which gives you a seat up front with a wider pitch and pays for your bags etc. 

It wasn't nearly as bad as I expect Allegiant to be.  Just my .02

I have a friend who flew Frontier from Fort Lauderdale to San Francisco area. No complaints and said he would do again. I believe domestic coach flights as it relates to service is not much different for all major airlines these days.

New Frontier routes

Jax to Austin, TX
Jax to Trenton, NJ

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/frontier-airlines-adds-flights-from-jacksonville-to-austin

I have never flown Frontier but hopefully we can get some competitive fares from other carriers.

Hey that Austin flight is intriguing! This is like the third iteration of that Trenton route.

Allegiant is adding non-stop routes to Louisville & Norfolk.

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180403/allegiant-adds-nonstop-flights-from-jacksonville-to-two-cities

I was on a long car ride so 2 hours ago I was staring at google in my phone and decided to search for "JIA new routes" and was pleasantly surprised to find the daily record article from one day ago. Never done that before. I should probably try that every few months and see if we keep getting service added. Maybe I can google some historic rehabs or infill into existence too...

Anyway, I'm glad I can always count on someone on MJ to update this thread if I'm ever incapacitated.

Louisville is a very nice add. And maybe when they finally move the nuclear carriers to Mayport some of the officers can fly down too.  ;D

Quote from: JaxAvondale on February 08, 2018, 11:57:30 PM
New Frontier routes

Jax to Austin, TX
Jax to Trenton, NJ

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/frontier-airlines-adds-flights-from-jacksonville-to-austin

I have never flown Frontier but hopefully we can get some competitive fares from other carriers.

I flew Frontier to San Diego from MCO two weeks ago. Very small seats and they literally charge for everything.  I probably won't fly them cross country again, but would do so for a shorter trip. You can save a lot of money if you don't have baggage, carry ons and willing to sit in cheaper seats.

There is very little chance that I would fly a low cost carrier across the country. Even Southwest is a bit tough to fly to California from Florida.

So, Allegiant is in the news, and it's not good at all...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/ (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/allegiant-air-the-budget-airline-flying-under-the-radar/)

QuoteFor the past seven months, we have been scrutinizing 'service difficulty reports' filed by Allegiant with the FAA. They are official, self-reported records of problems experienced by their aircraft. What we found raised some disturbing questions about the performance of their fleet. Between January 1st, 2016 and the end of last October, we found more than 100 serious mechanical incidents...

The article is worth a read in full and really highlights the culture at Allegiant and some failings of the FAA.

Yeah I did not see the 60 Minutes story but I've read a half dozen articles about it, and tbh these numbers haven't been a secret at all for the past year or so.

That said, I am mildly concerned about flying them in a few weeks. Not enough to not take the flight, but enough for me to express slight concern on a message board. Hope this post doesn't live on in infamy!!

As others have said, I dont have much of an issue with any of these ULCCs. I am skinny and not very tall so space is usually not a concern. And as a frequent traveler I am usually prepared with work/personal entertainment/sleep so amenities don't too much to me. My main concerns are delays/cancellations and whether the ULCC can accommodate me in such an event, as well as the bag and seat selection fees when they are necessary (half the time I don't need either). So far, I think I have taken a total of 7 flights on Spirit and Allegiant. Of those, 6 went smoothly. Only one flight, on Allegiant, was delayed and it was almost 4 hours late. Not good but could have been much worse. And was compensated with some snacks at the gate and a $75 voucher. 

As the Mad Dogs (MD-88s) come out of the fleet the numbers should improve.   There was a time I wouldn't put a family member or myself on Allegiant, but those days have passed.  I think the 60 Minutes piece is a hit piece as some don't like the success that Allegiant is having. If pilots were that concerned they wouldn't fly for them, they would take another job at another carrier.  There are more jobs than pilots.   

But as today proves even those with one of the best safety records (SWA) can have incidents.

Quote from: Gators312 on April 17, 2018, 05:43:48 PM
As the Mad Dogs (MD-88s) come out of the fleet the numbers should improve.   There was a time I wouldn't put a family member or myself on Allegiant, but those days have passed.  I think the 60 Minutes piece is a hit piece as some don't like the success that Allegiant is having. If pilots were that concerned they wouldn't fly for them, they would take another job at another carrier.  There are more jobs than pilots.   

But as today proves even those with one of the best safety records (SWA) can have incidents.

Allegiant actually has MD-80's which are even worse, but regardless of the age good maintence makes a big difference. For example, Delta has well over 100 MD-88s. I have ZERO concern flying on them (aside from no personal TVs on them!)

I don't have any issues flying Allegiant. However, it is tough to fly with them when you fly a lot and have perks with other carriers. I do miss the non-stop flights to New Orleans. Hopefully, we can get some better flights once MSY finishes their expansion.

Six new routes on Frontier out of JAX! Still mostly seasonal but nice nevertheless.

Buffalo, KC, Vegas, Milwaukee, MSP, STL (I think it's actually STL and not Mid America like Allegiant)

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/nation-now/frontier-airlines-adds-two-new-cities-as-part-of-9-route-expansion/465-9796f70f-7ce7-4e0f-beba-4b0969590656

BTW I survived my Allegiant flight last week.  ;D Flight was a tiny bit delayed but I'll take that every time lol.

Perfect timing with the KC route. That will come in handy during the NFL season.

It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 09, 2018, 03:36:40 PM
It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

To be fair, I think thats as sustainable as routes such as MCI, MKE and BUF can be.

Hopefully a west coast flight next. Would like to think LAX could be maintained year round.

LAX would be awesome.

Delta tried JAX-LAX about 8 years ago. Didn't work, which surprised me. It was a red eye back, which wasn't ideal IMO. The timing out was perfect (9:30 departure I believe).

I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

It's the sad reality of not being a hub of any kind. We are close to several hubs so it's unlikely we will ever attain even regional hub status (Silver Airline's aspirations notwithstanding). On the flipside, as an underserved midsized market (in FL especially!) we are able to attract these LCCs. Not just the big expansions of Frontier and Allegiant, but even Southwest and Jetblue back in the day were fairly early to our airport.

Regarding San Juan, I heard differently. In any case, those flights were often dirt cheap I am sad I never got to take advantage. Certainly our PR connection is growing so it could return someday soon.

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 01:16:59 AM
Delta tried JAX-LAX about 8 years ago. Didn't work, which surprised me. It was a red eye back, which wasn't ideal IMO. The timing out was perfect (9:30 departure I believe).

I actually prefer a red eye coming back from the West Coast but I sleep well on planes better than most people.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there's more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 11:37:02 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there's more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.

Oh no, really?

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 11:54:46 AM

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 11:37:02 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there's more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.

Oh no, really?

The point was that I don't see that changing in JAX unfortunately.

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 12:34:52 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 11:54:46 AM

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 11:37:02 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there's more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.

Oh no, really?

The point was that I don't see that changing in JAX unfortunately.

It will change Steve.  What it takes is a draw for more leisure flyers visiting Jacksonville.  When you are mostly business oriented you get business travelers.  The ones who's employer pays for the ticket no matter the cost.  If we get our beaches more attractive to leisure travelers, and an additional attraction or two, our air fares will come down and the passenger count will go up.  Simple.

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 01:16:59 AM
Delta tried JAX-LAX about 8 years ago. Didn't work, which surprised me. It was a red eye back, which wasn't ideal IMO. The timing out was perfect (9:30 departure I believe).

I'd imagine if that service is to return it'll be on an LCC with less than daily service. I believe JetBlue operate BUF-LAX 4x weekly.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 03:33:59 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 12:34:52 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 11:54:46 AM

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 11:37:02 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

Well, there's more to it then that. While the flight might be full, what was the price point? If they can utilize the aircraft in a different market with a higher fare average, then they will do that. Also, at times they keep a lower performing flight because of aircraft repositioning.

Oh no, really?

The point was that I don't see that changing in JAX unfortunately.

It will change Steve.  What it takes is a draw for more leisure flyers visiting Jacksonville.  When you are mostly business oriented you get business travelers.  The ones who's employer pays for the ticket no matter the cost.  If we get our beaches more attractive to leisure travelers, and an additional attraction or two, our air fares will come down and the passenger count will go up.  Simple.

Disagree - the thing that drives higher fares and more profitable routes that stick around are the business travelers, not the leisure ones. You might see an Allegiant or a Frontier try a JAX-California route, but I doubt it succeeds. With the major carriers, you get a fair number of people either paying for First Class, or willing to pay $750+ to fly Coach to California on short notice. Those people are less than 50% of the plane, but significantly more than 50% of the revenue of the flight. That is what keeps a flight going day in and day out. Business travelers also can't rely on a 2 or 4 day a week service - I'm never going to move my flight a day to take advantage of a nonstop.

While the major leisure destinations might be able to sustain on tons of leisure travelers (Orlando, Vegas, etc.), I don't see leisure travel helping JAX at all when it comes to longer distance flights - Las Vegas being an exception.

^This is true! As someone who has taken over 5 late notice flights this year, I can't rely on 2 or 4 day a week service. So, I end up flying American, Delta, or SW.

I don't fly all that often, but I am doing significantly more now that I am retired and I kind of see it as a glass half-full.  It matters little to me that I can't fly non-stop to all that many places from JAX.  It would be nice, but I realize that's never going to be the reality.  However, in a one-hour hop, I can be in ATL and fly to anywhere in the country in one more stop, and many international destinations as well.  For example, my main destination is GRR.  I can be there by 10:30 AM with a simple connection in Atlanta.  A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

Quote from: TimmyB on May 10, 2018, 09:48:47 PM
A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/yYXEQeTsoh2rS/giphy.gif)

Quote from: Steve on May 10, 2018, 06:39:05 PM

Disagree - the thing that drives higher fares and more profitable routes that stick around are the business travelers, not the leisure ones. You might see an Allegiant or a Frontier try a JAX-California route, but I doubt it succeeds. With the major carriers, you get a fair number of people either paying for First Class, or willing to pay $750+ to fly Coach to California on short notice. Those people are less than 50% of the plane, but significantly more than 50% of the revenue of the flight. That is what keeps a flight going day in and day out. Business travelers also can't rely on a 2 or 4 day a week service - I'm never going to move my flight a day to take advantage of a nonstop.

While the major leisure destinations might be able to sustain on tons of leisure travelers (Orlando, Vegas, etc.), I don't see leisure travel helping JAX at all when it comes to longer distance flights - Las Vegas being an exception.

Exactly. Airlines care about biz pax, not leisure travelers. There´s a reason leisure destinations always lag behind biz destinations when it comes to convenience flights. (It´s why Barcelona has 1/10th the flights Madrid does, despite having 32x the yearly passengers).

Airlines only care about first and biz class pax, and those pax willing to pay flex rates (ie, higher rates) on the cheap seats. So where a leisure traveler buys the cheapest available coach ticket at 250 a pop, a biz traveler may 750 for the same ticket solely because it´s flexible.

Leisure travelers have almost no clout when it comes to deciding routes, unfortunately...at least when we´re talking about DL/AA/UA (vs. the ULCCs).

Quote from: TimmyB on May 10, 2018, 09:48:47 PM
I don't fly all that often, but I am doing significantly more now that I am retired and I kind of see it as a glass half-full.  It matters little to me that I can't fly non-stop to all that many places from JAX.  It would be nice, but I realize that's never going to be the reality.  However, in a one-hour hop, I can be in ATL and fly to anywhere in the country in one more stop, and many international destinations as well.  For example, my main destination is GRR.  I can be there by 10:30 AM with a simple connection in Atlanta.  A non-stop would be great, but I can tell you, if it comes down to one stop with Delta versus a non-stop on an LCC, Delta will win every time with my money.

That's a fair perspective. From a business traveler's perspective, the non-stops can make a difference. I don't ever see one from JAX to Grand Rapids, but I get your point. As a Delta loyalist, that's usually what I end up doing - flight to ATL then I generally have decent availability to most places. However, a non-stop can however make the difference between spending 1-2 nights versus possibly not spending a night at all.

I'm a little biased, but from my perspective I'd love Delta to add Salt Lake City (their main western hub, because some smaller places out west are now two stop itineraries from here), and I'd love another crack at LAX, especially now that Delta has and is continuing to expand there, and would give better availability for Asia flights with Delta.

Unfortunately, I think we're a ways off from a Europe flight. If it happened, it would likely be British Airways or Virgin Atlantic to London, as JAX is a strong place for both American (BA Partner) and Delta (who owns 49% of Virgin). I think Frankfurt, despite the Deutsche Bank thing is going to be very hard. Deutsche is not doing well, and Lufthansa's partner is United, which doesn't have a great presence here.

Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now. 

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 03:03:54 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

I've said it before, so forgive my redundancy: I would guarantee that less than 30% of Americans know where the TPC is played.  They can name Sawgrass, they might even know Ponte Vedra Beach, but if you asked them what airport you'd fly into to get there, you'd get a blank stare.  For the life of me, I don't know why the Duval CVB has failed to capitalize on making Jacksonville the ultimate golf destination.  THAT'S where the tourism is going to be for this area: beaches and golf.  We don't need to compete with the kiddie playland that is Orlando and we will never have the cool of Miami Beach. 

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 03:03:54 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

Hmm, Steve and ben would be the two most knowledgeable posters about the airline/travel business, and honestly what they said was exactly what I have read about the industry in the past. So I would agree with them. You compared the number of trips taken, but what is the ticket cost comparison??

Leisure flying brings the LCCs, but not the legacy airlines. As I said in my other post, this is what happens when we are a medium-sized non-hub. We will see growth in LCCs but the rest will be a struggle.

BTW you mentioned Fort Myers...that airport is almost all LCCs and fairly seasonal. All four ULCCs are active there (Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country) and when you add in Southwest, JetBlue, West Jet and Air Canada Rouge it seems that most of the service is LCCs.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 11, 2018, 04:00:38 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 03:03:54 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now.

Hmm, Steve and ben would be the two most knowledgeable posters about the airline/travel business, and honestly what they said was exactly what I have read about the industry in the past. So I would agree with them. You compared the number of trips taken, but what is the ticket cost comparison??

Leisure flying brings the LCCs, but not the legacy airlines. As I said in my other post, this is what happens when we are a medium-sized non-hub. We will see growth in LCCs but the rest will be a struggle.

BTW you mentioned Fort Myers...that airport is almost all LCCs and fairly seasonal. All four ULCCs are active there (Spirit, Allegiant, Frontier and Sun Country) and when you add in Southwest, JetBlue, West Jet and Air Canada Rouge it seems that most of the service is LCCs.

It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 09, 2018, 03:36:40 PM
It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 11, 2018, 06:24:14 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 09, 2018, 03:36:40 PM
It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.

I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 08:40:19 PM

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 11, 2018, 06:24:14 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I used to fly in those days. Cannot be compared to toady as the airlines were very heavily regulated by the government. Both routes and fares were set. There was no competition. Then came deregulation and Peoples Airline out of NJ. Flying for the leisure traveler became a reality. But to compare today to the 60s and 70s in not even close.

I think we are all trying to say too many things and aren't stating them clearly. Sorry for that. I guess in my mind I was stuck on your first two posts which I responded to on the previous page. And everything you complained about in those two posts are the reality for LCCs and courting leisure travelers. Business travelers can buoy "underused" flights and help deliver non-seasonal, daily flight service.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 09, 2018, 03:36:40 PM
It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

If you want to deal with the facts, you might acknowledge that business travelers account for several times their share of airline revenue and  in some cases a majority of the profits despite, as you noted, averaging just 20% of the trips.

I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.

I used to fly in those days. Cannot be compared to toady as the airlines were very heavily regulated by the government. Both routes and fares were set. There was no competition. Then came deregulation and Peoples Airline out of NJ. Flying for the leisure traveler became a reality. But to compare today to the 60s and 70s in not even close.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 03:03:54 PM
Sorry folks, but you are misinformed. On average, trips in the US in 2017 were heavily leisure over business.  1779.7 million vs 466.2 million.  Leisure flying has a lot of clout.  Take our JAX for instance-it's always been considered a "business" airport.  Fares are higher and our passenger count stagnant.  We are smaller than many airports south of us due to the leisure travelers.  There are probably more direct flights out of Fort Meyers than Jax.  How do you think MCO, FLL and Palm Beach have surpassed JAX?  When JAX draws more tourists and seasonal visitors, our airport will boom.  In the 60s I had a friend living in the DC area who flew to JAX to visit Orlando, which was then using an air force base as their airport.  Disney came in and bam, look at Orlando now. 

I think you're missing my point here. Yes, there are more leisure travelers than business travelers (I'd like to see the source on your numbers because the numbers I've seen aren't nearly that extreme, but yes - there are more leisure travelers than business travelers).

Orlando is sort of the extreme example. I do acknowledge that if something anywhere near Disney-size opened in Jacksonville we'd see a huge expansion at JAX. Further, if load factors were overly high because of leisure growth then yes, some carrier would either expand a route or add one. Wasn't really the point I was making.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
It seems that everyone picks and chooses what they want to believe and go by what they feel rather than what is fact.  How did we get into which or what kind of carrier, or fares, or anything else for that matter other than to try and prove a point.  If you want to fly to LA or SFO or SLC, having regular nonstop service is preferable to connecting service.  Are you talking about JetBlue?  I'll fly JetBlue non stop to LAX.  Alaska Air?  The LCCs are competing and competing well.  Skip the semantics.  I thought we were talking flights and our ability to fly into and out of, JAX easily.  Ask anyone on JAA's board what we need to improve service here.  I'm only saying what they are saying.

I have no issue with flying Alaska or JetBlue (or any airline other than allegiant for that matter). Alaska really isn't a LCC, they were just more of a regional airline, but with the Virgin America acquisition they will be either #5 or #6 in america with JetBlue being the other one. JetBlue also isn't a LCC in the truest sense, but more of a regional carrier as well. With their Mint service they truly are competing against the big boys on those routes. For those based at a JetBlue Hub (BOS/JFK/FLL), they are a GREAT option.

Certainly, any carrier adding flights to JAX is a good thing, even if twice a week and seasonal. It isn't bad, so long as the airport authority grants them space commensurate with the flight frequency. In other words, don't give preferential gate access to a carrier for a route like that, because then another carrier might be hamstrung to add capacity/another route.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 10, 2018, 09:45:59 AM
I think Jacksonville gets slighted as far as routes are concerned.  Airlines will keep underused flights going in other markets, but will stop them in JAX.  I think if another airline had LAX flights, Delta would have kept them.  There are routes in other cities that are always near empty, but they continue.  JetBlue cancelled the JAX-San Juan flights even though the flights were full (according to friends).  Our time is coming....I hope.

For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route. It could have been something having to do with how the plane was utilized before/after the flight; maybe something didn't line up well and they were getting killed on that, and JAX-San Juan was the "innocent bystander in that".

Quote from: SnaketozI won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point.  How many seats and how many aircraft do you think would be needed to handle business traffic at JIA?  You are dealing with very old thinking.  Many, if not most, businesses of any size today have their own aircraft.  The lower ranking business travelers doing most of the flying are flying leisure class on airlines.  When I was in the military flying out of Imeson it seemed that business travelers ruled in Jacksonville, and indeed they did.  We are living in a different time now.  Imeson had nonstops to San Frnacisco, KC, St. Louis, most major and regional cities.  Charleston, SC, New Orleans, Cleveland.  Then we got the hub and spoke system.  The cities with the largest amount of travelers kept most of their routes, JAX didn't.  Say what you want about the LCCs, but they will bring the legacy carriers if they prosper.  Low cost carriers are perfect for JIA.  We are a relatively low wage area and more people will fly if the fares are low.  How many people do you know that drive to Orlando for cheaper fares?  Before we finally attracted Allegiant, people drove to Sanford for the fares, and nonstops.  Some of these LC airlines with the cheap seats will turn into Southwests and JetBlues.  Those two airlines that were once snickered at, are now two of the higher rated airlines in the country.  Same with Alaska Air.  The airlines don't care about a city, they care about butts in the seats.  If it's business in 1st class, great.  If not, they will gladly fly the tourists sweating the bag and carryon fees.  My family has had many members in the aviation community since the 40s.  From an airline captain, a city commissioner involved in the airports, to a secretary to the JAA.  Things have changed.  You can't bank on the business flyer if you want to build capacity.  It's all about profits.  They will cram as many people as possible on a plane and charge for air if they can.  The legacy hub and spoke is not helping Jacksonville, the LCCs will.

There's a few things I'll touch on here:

- Yes, many businesses have access to private planes. Very few own it themselves, because it's easier to work with someone else for upkeep/maintenance/etc. but I get your point. My company actually has their own plane. Now, I've never been in it and maybe never will. That's not because it isn't offered. The aircraft is flown based on Ownership/Executive need, so if there are empty seats (I want to say it holds 8) then they will email out the route it's flying and if you have a need to go there, then you can get a seat. The issue is our company has about 3,000 people, and about 100 (including me) have a legit need to travel on a frequent basis. I'm not based at our Mothership, so for me to have a need to travel somewhere where the plane happens to be going (at the exact times I need to be there mind you), Then it might make sense to drive 3 hours to our headquarters and then 3 hours home when I get back to take the flight. My point is a VERY small percentage of overall business travel is done on private planes compared to commercial. Most companies won't pay for even First Class unless it's an executive traveling (or if over a pond they may pay for Long Haul Business which is usually quite nice).

Fundamentally, I actually agree with much of your post. Yes, LCCs have a business model that works - if they didn't then they'd be out of business.  Southwest has made some very good business decisions that helped them a TON over the years (the biggest being their fuel hedges in the 2000s and their long term decision to fly one single aircraft - makes maintenance and scheduling MUCH easier.

I'd also agree that the industry hasn't been friendly overall to JAX. Through the airline consolidation, JAX did end up losing out on some routes - some of which were decisions outside of JAX. We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

One thing you said which I question is that you're implying that Nonstop is always better than a Connection, which most frequent business travelers may question (depending on the routing and length of a connection obviously). For me, I will stick with Delta 99% of the time, even to markets like Chicago and DFW where JAX has nonstops. Personally, I do it for the miles - I'm away from home a bit, which can suck, but having the miles to be able to take my family on vacation softens the blow. Also, while at the time allegiant had a non-stop from JAX-New Orleans, I took Delta as allegiant's maintenance record scared the He11 out of me. Also, the flight times didn't line up and I'd have to spend an extra night to boot. I'm sure you know that flight times are a huge component of a business traveler's decision. When I went to Boston a couple months ago, I took the non-stop on Delta up, but had to connect on the way down. The trip back was only offered as a non-stop as a 6AM departure. I had a morning meeting, so either I spent another night or I connected on the way home - easy decision.

It's not that I don't think Leisure Routes aren't good for JAX. I just question whether or not they end up sticking around for the long term, or do they change as the wind blows. The fact is, the business routes do have a higher PRASM than leisure routes - that can't really be disputed. Yes, increasing the tourism base will help, but in the end Business Traveler and their wallets are going to be preferred.

Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:31:29 AM
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

I actually found most of that quite interesting.  Looks like they are a very focused company with a great strategy and their employees actually like working for them.  What I don't get is the alliance with Air France.  Maybe it's their labor struggles but I came away from my flights (code-shared from Delta) with them as having some of the least customer oriented, least happy employees of any airline I've ever flown.

Quote from: TimmyB on May 14, 2018, 12:57:49 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:31:29 AM
Also, if anyone wants to know WAY more about airlines than most care to know:

http://s1.q4cdn.com/231238688/files/doc_presentations/2017/Delta-Air-Lines-Investor-Day_2017.pdf

While I'm most familiar with them, there's also a reason that they are the most profitable airline in America.

I actually found most of that quite interesting.  Looks like they are a very focused company with a great strategy and their employees actually like working for them.  What I don't get is the alliance with Air France.  Maybe it's their labor struggles but I came away from my flights (code-shared from Delta) with them as having some of the least customer oriented, least happy employees of any airline I've ever flown.

That originated over time:

- Northwest Airlines and KLM (The Dutch Airline - KLM stands for something ridiculously long in Dutch) had an alliance back in the late 1980's, and actually considered Schiphol Airport (Amsterdam's airport) a hub.
- In 2004 KLM and Air France Merged
- In 2009-ish Northwest and Delta Merged

There's also some strategy there. The four largest airports in Europe are Heathrow in London, deGaulle in Paris, Schiphol in Amsterdam, and Frankfurt. Through their Joint Venture with Air France/KLM, Delta now can consider the #2 and #3 airports in Europe as Hubs and has a significant network of flights that Delta can ticket as a 1 or 2 stop itinerary. That's pretty powerful. They also have a Joint Venture and own 49% of Virgin Atlantic (with Sir Richard's company owning 51%). While not nearly as strong as the OneWorld alliance in London (which is AA and British Airways), that's still a significant presence.

But, all of that aside you're right in your comment. There is some significant risk with Air France especially right now. There is a LOT of labor unrest with Air France that I'm sure Delta wants resolved sooner rather than later.

Right on point, Steve.

Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route.

I was on a tour of the airport with the CEO of JAA at the time and he claimed the route had one of the highest passenger rates out of JAX, but I dont really have any true insight into this. What I do know is I was tracking this flight for a long time and the prices on off days were incredibly low. Like under $100 roundtrip, and this was available often. It was probably a combination of this plus the fact that the overall passenger count did not increase as much compared to their MCO-SJU route. Just a guess with no real knowledge on my part.

Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

Well thanks to Frontier we will soon  ;D And Allegiant has been flying to MidAmerica for some time  8)

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 14, 2018, 02:31:12 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
For JAX-San Juan, I heard the same thing so I'm not sure why they cancelled it. My guess is (no facts to back this up) is that JetBlue felt that the aircraft could be more profitable on another route. This is where the whole PRASM (Passenger Revenue per Available Seat Mile) thing come in. If say they felt that by operating the route out of Fort Lauderdale hub then they could charge per per person, on a shorter flight (less fuel), then they may have made that call. It may have not even been the JAX-San Juan route.

I was on a tour of the airport with the CEO of JAA at the time and he claimed the route had one of the highest passenger rates out of JAX, but I dont really have any true insight into this. What I do know is I was tracking this flight for a long time and the prices on off days were incredibly low. Like under $100 roundtrip, and this was available often. It was probably a combination of this plus the fact that the overall passenger count did not increase as much compared to their MCO-SJU route. Just a guess with no real knowledge on my part.

Obviously this all anecdotal, but if that was the pricing then that's pretty low. JAX-San Juan is about 1,290 miles flown through the air (each way). Let's say it was $50 Each Way. That works out to under $0.04/mile, WAY off what most airlines want.

As an example (and this was a VERY fast search), pricing Allegiant from Orlando to Fargo, North Dakota which is 1,510 miles through the air each way. The cheapest I can find going far out is $117 each way, or just under $0.08/mile.

For context, for each Elite Status tier of Delta's SkyMiles program, you have to qualify not only on miles (or segments) flown but also on Spend. Their Spend tiers are calculated based on $0.12/mile. In other words, if you don't average $0.12/mile you actually won't get status based on your flights in a year. With some exceptions, the only people that realistically do this are business travelers, because inevitably they book a trip either to some remote destination, they book something from time to time less than a week out, or they're booking First/Business Class.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 14, 2018, 02:31:12 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 11:23:32 AM
We no longer have a non-stop to St. Louis not because of JAX in any way, but it was a TWA Hub. When AA bought them, they dumped the hub - simple as that.

Well thanks to Frontier we will soon  ;D And Allegiant has been flying to MidAmerica for some time  8)

Touche....forgot about Allegiant's route.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 14, 2018, 02:35:48 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.

Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 14, 2018, 06:07:59 PM

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 14, 2018, 02:35:48 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 11, 2018, 08:40:19 PM
I won't acknowledge that, but what you say is true, to a point. 

Well, it's pretty black and white so you can research the facts. Wherever you got your stats on passenger numbers, see if they show revenue and profit as well. I got some numbers from some sources, but they differ a little from what you shared so it's probably more effective for you to find it yourself if you need convincing.

Bottom line though, if you are now just saying that leisure travel is helping Jax get more routes to more places, regardless of frequency or seasonality, yeah I definitely share your sentiments that this is a positive. Hence why I created this thread and why I eagerly post new routes lol.

Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Not sure anyone attacked. Disagreed, perhaps, but not attacked. I was curious your source because the stats that I've heard are about 50% leisure, 40% business, and 10% other (funerals, business/leisure mix, etc.). Those percentages and your numbers don't jive.

Either way, I never said that business was more people than leisure. Only that business passengers bring in more money than leisure for the large airlines.

Business flyers drive the legacy carriers, period.

Source: me, after working in the travel business for the past 5 plus years.

I work with, and talk to, decision makers at airlines ranging from Delta to Korean, Emirates to United. This isn´t bragging - just facts.

Of course, every model is different. Yeah, ULCCs and LCCs tend to rely more on leisure. And yeah, the ME3 don´t really care as long as they´re expanding their route network and gaining market share.

But DL/UA/AA makes route decisions - most of the time -based on those flying in the ´front of the plane´, especially with regards to domestic routes.

You´ll ALWAYS find exceptions to the rule - why else add flights to Augusta during the Masters. And of course places like MCO are exceptions too.

I´m just speaking from experience, and using facts ´from the horse´s mouths´.....

You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)

Quote from: chipwich on May 17, 2018, 04:51:04 PM
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)

Great news.  As I have been saying, if JAX/JIA is going to improve service, it will be this type of service.  Look for Southwest to be adding routes and additional flights soon.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 14, 2018, 06:07:59 PM
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Hope I wasnt making you feel attacked!! That wasnt my intention at all. It does appear from your source that your numbers are referring to all leisure travel vs all business travel in the US, not just flights. That may explain the slight discrepancy from Steve's expectations.
In any case, one of the legacy carriers a few years ago revealed in an audit that nearly 50% of profits came from front of cabin tickets. I'd have to dig a little to find which one.

Quote from: chipwich on May 17, 2018, 04:51:04 PM
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)

Nice! This one is just twice weekly and seasonal, but we'll take it wont we? Although as I've said many times it does seem they are quite fickle with these routes...almost like they toss a bunch of em out there to see what sticks and they dont hesitate to shut it down whenever they feel like it.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 17, 2018, 09:51:57 PM

Quote from: chipwich on May 17, 2018, 04:51:04 PM
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)

Great news.  As I have been saying, if JAX/JIA is going to improve service, it will be this type of service.  Look for Southwest to be adding routes and additional flights soon.

I really hope that SW adds some additional routes soon. Unless you are flying to Atlanta, most SW flights out of Jax aren't much of a deal.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 17, 2018, 10:31:34 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 14, 2018, 06:07:59 PM
Sorry for not citing my source.  I usually don't add them as more often than not the source will be attacked as not valid.  I've lived in Jacksonville for over 7 decades.  All my life I've heard Jacksonville lack of flights was due to JAX being a business first airport.  I've always heard that we need more flights from other than business type flyers.  As for the other posts, I've stayed with the title of this thread-JAX/JIA.  I gave examples of other airports success after attracting tourists.  So there you are, my source.  Now every millennial on here can denounce the data, while giving none of their own. https://www.statista.com/statistics/207103/forecasted-number-of-domestic-trips-in-the-us/

Hope I wasnt making you feel attacked!! That wasnt my intention at all. It does appear from your source that your numbers are referring to all leisure travel vs all business travel in the US, not just flights. That may explain the slight discrepancy from Steve's expectations.
In any case, one of the legacy carriers a few years ago revealed in an audit that nearly 50% of profits came from front of cabin tickets. I'd have to dig a little to find which one.

Quote from: chipwich on May 17, 2018, 04:51:04 PM
You can add San Antonio to Frontier's new destinations out of JIA.  They are really ramping up.  Hoping most of these destinations stick around.  Time will tell, I guess.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/frontier-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jia-to-san-antonio)

Nice! This one is just twice weekly and seasonal, but we'll take it wont we? Although as I've said many times it does seem they are quite fickle with these routes...almost like they toss a bunch of em out there to see what sticks and they dont hesitate to shut it down whenever they feel like it.

I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/22/jacksonville-airport-soars-in-april.html

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 18, 2018, 07:43:31 AM
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.

It's hard to tell if you're agitated...I do think you might be receiving our (or at least my) responses in a way in which they're not intended. I am not trying to attack your thoughts or your source, fyi, but I have trouble following your overall message. You were the one who complained about most of the new flights not being daily or year-round.  And you also surmised that Jacksonville gets treated poorly by the airlines in route-planning and service. From my pov, the subsequent replies to you were simply addressing those thoughts...that we will be looking at this type of seasonal non-daily flight growth for the near term and possible reasons why Jax struggles to get or keep the more desirable flights from the more mainstream carriers.

Anyway, that's all I really want to say anymore about that...I obviously am excited about any growth we see in Jax. (Otherwise I wouldn't google for news on it every few days lol) The outlook was quite bleak several years ago so imo to the degree that they had effect/influence, the folks at JAA have done a great job of luring the options we have now.

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 22, 2018, 09:38:24 AM
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/22/jacksonville-airport-soars-in-april.html

I saw that.....definitely a positive (and I don't think any of the routes that Frontier recently announced have started yet).

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 22, 2018, 10:24:35 AM

Quote from: Snaketoz on May 18, 2018, 07:43:31 AM
I tried to stay within the title of this thread, which is JAX/JIA.  I'm saying to get more flights, routes, airlines, seats coming and going from JAX we have to take what we can get.  Anyone with a brain knows that business class and 1st class passengers pay more, and are more profitable.  People won't buy business class seats on a non-existent flight.  These seasonal flights are tests.  If the flights to San Antonio are successful, they will be expanded and made year round.  The other airlines will compete on that route and you have better service.  I usually fly Delta or American.  Neither of those airlines are ready to try a JAX-San Antonio flight.  If Frontier is successful, they will complete.  I've been trying to say what JAX needs to improve service.  I would post something obvious and would start reading all kinds of stuff about profits, legacy vs lcc, Korean, Emirates, etc.  Everyone wants to be an expert.  Keep it simple.  It's all about profits.  If an airline can fly a route and make money, regardless of what class the passengers are flying, they will come.  Growing up in Jacksonville in the train era I'm aware that flying to many is new.  My parents never flew.  They drove or went by train.  When our air service improves with more non stops, more people will fly and more service will come.

It's hard to tell if you're agitated...I do think you might be receiving our (or at least my) responses in a way in which they're not intended. I am not trying to attack your thoughts or your source, fyi, but I have trouble following your overall message. You were the one who complained about most of the new flights not being daily or year-round.  And you also surmised that Jacksonville gets treated poorly by the airlines in route-planning and service. From my pov, the subsequent replies to you were simply addressing those thoughts...that we will be looking at this type of seasonal non-daily flight growth for the near term and possible reasons why Jax struggles to get or keep the more desirable flights from the more mainstream carriers.

Anyway, that's all I really want to say anymore about that...I obviously am excited about any growth we see in Jax. (Otherwise I wouldn't google for news on it every few days lol) The outlook was quite bleak several years ago so imo to the degree that they had effect/influence, the folks at JAA have done a great job of luring the options we have now.

I'm definitely not agitated, only posting a link to a bizjournal piece this morning.  I don't know how you have "trouble following my overall message".  My message is the message I have gotten from JAA board members in the past, and things I've heard from family members in the know.  As for the getting treated unfairly, Jacksonville has a storied past in that department.  In air routes, sports, and much more.  I think you do have trouble following my message.  You say I "complained" about Frontier's new flights.  I think you  might mean #32 where I said, "It's always great to hear of new flights out of JAX.  The only problem is all but the Las Vegas flights are just seasonal and not everyday."  Is that really complaining?  I have no problems with you posts.  I sometimes get a bit irritated with some on here (not you) who always seem to only post arguments to other's posts and who always want attributions to other's posts, but never give any for theirs.  If they don't like your post, they want a source.  If you give a source, they don't like the source.  PM, you are alright with me.  I've always been very interested in JAX aviation and I appreciate you starting this thread. Thanks!

(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0185/5092/products/persons-0106.png?v=1369544013)

I did some looking into the routes for Frontier, and here are some tidbits:

- When they bring on the new routes, they look to be keeping all of their routes at least for a while. Pretty impressive.

- Their aircraft utilization is actually pretty good....as long as they stay on schedule. Other than after the arrival from LAS (which arrives at 6AM - redeye), nothing stays on the ground for more than an hour except on Wednesday and Saturday (The two slowest days for flying).

- I do think that some of these routes are being done as an experiment to see if it can pick up demand. For example, the nonstops to Milwaukee and Cinci on Wednesday and Saturdays. Those flights are STUPID cheap, like $40 each way. I do wonder if this is a case if trying to get an asset into the air, and they will have short leashes if no one books or if they find a better route.

- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

- I had some time over lunch so I mapped the whole thing out (why not). The one thing I'm missing is I don't see where the plane comes from to support the departure to Milwaukee. Obviously it comes from somewhere but I was more curious how.

- Other than Wednesday and Saturday, they can definitely operate the whole schedule with 1 Gate. Even on Wednesday and Saturday, as long as they TUG a plane out after an arrival they can still operate with 1 Gate. I bring this up because anyone who wants JAX to add that long awaited Concourse B, keep wishing.

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 12:39:04 PM

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

Quote from: TimmyB on May 23, 2018, 01:32:12 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 12:39:04 PM

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

Other than the RJs, not too many planes with 3-2 seating other than the 100 year old MD-88/MD-90 jets that AA and Delta still has bouncing around.

(not counting widebody 767 and A330 birds that have a 2 seat section but rarely see JAX)

Quote from: TimmyB on May 23, 2018, 01:32:12 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 12:39:04 PM

...- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

A 3-3 aircraft.  Exactly why I and many others will look to them (and Southwest with 737's) last.  Not arguing that they won't be successful (I hope they WILL be) but with all of the reduction in enjoyment of the "flying experience" we've seen in the last couple of decades, the one thing I can control is having just my wife and myself in our row.  If that means I fly a smaller "regional jet", so be it.

It's been so long since I've posted...

Well I've been returning to FL from Northern CA (SF) more frequently these days to be closer to family, so my opinion on flying these particular [limited] transcon routes has developed.  I now regularly fly out of 4 FL airports:

JIA (always a connection so my selection of flight options varies widely now that I focus less on building and using mileage on 1-2 airlines, Delta which I predominantly used for many years flying for work on long haul flights whereby I almost exclusively flew business class, and United, which is hubbed at SFO, now I use a combo of checking deals with those airlines to seeing what Hopper 3rd party travel app can get me, and I've used Hopper to fly to and from JIA half a dozen times in the last 1-1.5 years now)

MCO (Orlando) - often it's just cheaper and has a direct non-stop flight, one of the only non-stops to the Bay Area, namely SFO or Oakland, in the state.  Having flown into Orlando and driven up on a couple occasions, I cannot recall whether it's a United flight, which I'm sure it is by chance, or a random Delta non-stop to non-traditional non-business destination, of which SFO has a few Delta routes like so.

Tampa - I have a sibling who lives here now, and Tampa just opened its first and only non-stop to SFO, a first in the morning with limited days running United flight, which has so far been inconvenient to me, leaving me to connect from there no differently as I would from JIA.

MIA - using Hopper, sometimes, actually on multiple occasions, the fastest and essentially tied with most of the numerous other connecting options for affordability is a two-stop American connection with the first stop being in MIA, and a second in Dallas.

So just the need to fly to FL at all from the Bay Area puts me on a lot of planes and in a lot of airports.  There really isn't much of a link between Bay Area and FL to speak of.  Hardly a business link, hardly a leisure link, hardly a transplant travel need as I exhibit in exceeding rarity as demonstrated by flight options, and as big of a hub for Asia travel as SFO is, it's not big enough or perhaps unique enough with LA and even some routes being covered by NYC/Newark and Houston/Dallas falling short of producing overall better and more numerous options for people like myself.

That being said, here are my observations, almost entirely qualitative and unsubstantiated by fact-checking, just to be sure and upfront.

FL as an entire state is either not viewed by airlines as a business-class paying business-traveler oriented state or just does not produce much business travel.  Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

The only flights I have *ever* taken into FL on a plane that was of a more obvious business-class pedigree, one in which the plane was at least A320/737 size and with all the modern features I'm accustomed to on many of my flights to destinations not in FL (typically to other cities seen as business destinations) and with a flight staff with obvious years in service and an undisputably "normal" to plus-sized business class with proper business class amenities and features for 2018 service is the MIA-DFW leg I take on occasion as part of my 3-leg American Airlines option to fly into or out of Jax.

I have never personally been on a flight into or out of JIA, MCO, or TPA that struck me as a flight deemed by the airline operating it (which in two out of three of these cases is not even the main airline that has its flag painted on it, it's often operated by a regional operator), as being valuable to its business travelers.

And the only non-stop I've ever flown into and out of FL from CA, that being into Orlando, which I might add I've ironically flown "on business" in business class as well as leisurely in a way to get to Jax, is hardly a business flight even if it tried.

Screaming kids and babies, lots of overweight people and rare fliers, families trying to stick together like glue in impossible situations, and a small, limited business class with amenities like "free movies" and overly reclining seats that were acceptable for transcon flights for only brief moment as I first started making these flights in 2010/2011 before Delta, the first big airline to merge and see benefits, overhauled all of its ttanscon flights in all the destinations I was flying to, to include lay-flats in business and screens in the backs of every seat (something to this day that does not exist in the non-updated non-stops between SFO and MCO).

Now, take what you will of the meaning of all of this but I seriously question the importance of business travel to FL from any destination or it would be reflected long ago already in its planes.  I've flown routes to NYC and DC and Boston and Chicago to JIA and business class was limited in size and in normal business class features and the planes were often regionals, still. My experience with flights out of Tampa and Orlando are similar.  Only in Miami have I witnessed or seen evidence otherwise for substantial business travel.

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

These are not the Southwest versions, and I'll be honest, I never question flying or get nervous about it unless I'm flying Southwest.  Sadly that's the best option for me to fly to OC or San Diego, but the sight of obvious maintenance oversights, like peeling paint, combined with the knowledge that shorter regional routes are flown by less experienced pilots, combined with the two-punch effect of paying the same as a larger airline but receiving no amenities and greatly reduced service throws me off kilter.

I can appreciate the big old leather sink in your chair seats that some of the MD-88s or smaller regional jets offer on flights into Jax, and I'm usually passed out before the plane even takes off, as a rule, so even on transcon flights with free movies for all (those are the flights from SF to any major city NOT in FL, hehe), I don't need the movies bc I'll be out like a light.  But realistically, the comforts of air travel and the planes have GREATLY improved just in the past decade let alone my lifetime (I remember flying United 727s out of Jax as a kid to visit family in Chicago, and Continental DC-10s to Newark to board A330 SAS flights, I believe none of those planes are in commercial service anywhere anymore).

But it's clear to me that airlines don't value FL as a whole so much, and so that's why you get a limited picture of flying if flying predominately into and out of that state.  There does NOT seem to be as much business travel and business travel implies corporations paying, hence why business class tickets are for exponentially more than economy class tickets and that difference isn't only covering a glass or two of Wente Estate wine and a meal with better seating, it truly is how flights become profitable and make up the difference.

If you find airlines including nicer/bigger, updated planes on routes with substantial business classes, then the effect of having enough people/companies paying for this lifts the experience of every traveler on that route up dramatically.

When you see big business hubs and no coincidence airline hubs such as Atl, DFW, Houston, Miami, Charlotte, DC, Chicago, Denver, etc etc pulling in most of the business and leaving scraps for other cities, I think it will be a slow steady grind for airports such as JIA to start reeling in subsequent business travel that will bring noticeable upgrades to all travelers.

Welcome back simms. People have been asking where you had gone.

Quote from: simms3 on May 23, 2018, 04:23:47 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

- If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

- I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 04:41:15 PM

Quote from: simms3 on May 23, 2018, 04:23:47 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

- If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

- I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven't been elite (I'm on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I'm flying to Miami or Charlotte.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on May 23, 2018, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 04:41:15 PM

Quote from: simms3 on May 23, 2018, 04:23:47 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

- If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

- I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven't been elite (I'm on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I'm flying to Miami or Charlotte.

In my experience, and using the anecdotal experience of clients who fly on a daily basis, it´s exceptionally easy to get upgraded on the way to the hub - those 45 min jumper flights, given the lack of people with status in a place like JAX. That said - what´s your upgrade percentage flying not TO the hub, but ex-hub? Try getting upgraded flying ATL to Tokyo, or hell, MIA to NYC. Slim to none...fat chance at best.

In other news, I still hate the living daylight out of Delta  ;D

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 12:39:04 PM
I did some looking into the routes for Frontier, and here are some tidbits:

- When they bring on the new routes, they look to be keeping all of their routes at least for a while. Pretty impressive.

- Their aircraft utilization is actually pretty good....as long as they stay on schedule. Other than after the arrival from LAS (which arrives at 6AM - redeye), nothing stays on the ground for more than an hour except on Wednesday and Saturday (The two slowest days for flying).

- I do think that some of these routes are being done as an experiment to see if it can pick up demand. For example, the nonstops to Milwaukee and Cinci on Wednesday and Saturdays. Those flights are STUPID cheap, like $40 each way. I do wonder if this is a case if trying to get an asset into the air, and they will have short leashes if no one books or if they find a better route.

- All of their flights use the same aircraft type (A320) which helps.

- I had some time over lunch so I mapped the whole thing out (why not). The one thing I'm missing is I don't see where the plane comes from to support the departure to Milwaukee. Obviously it comes from somewhere but I was more curious how.

- Other than Wednesday and Saturday, they can definitely operate the whole schedule with 1 Gate. Even on Wednesday and Saturday, as long as they TUG a plane out after an arrival they can still operate with 1 Gate. I bring this up because anyone who wants JAX to add that long awaited Concourse B, keep wishing.

In other words, they are trying to mimic the exact business model of the typical European ULCC, aka EasyJet, Vueling, RyanAir, etc (flying A320s only, stacking routes, minimizing time on the ground, hoping to god for no delays, etc).

Slightly unrelated, but I do wish the US gave consumers the same protections Europeans get for flight f-ups that are the fault of the airline. Was just delayed 2 hours flying Zurich to Barcelona on a ULCC (couldn´t pass up the 20 dollar tickets). So what happens next? We got 600 EUR in the mail!  8) I´d be more willing to fly airlines like Frontier in the States if I had these protections..

Totally unrelated: anyone fly Dubai Orlando (or reverse) on Emirates yet? I know the demand wasn´t strong enough to have the A380 fly it (bye bye shower-in-the-sky), and I think I read the flight is no longer daily, but this thing still operates right? On a 777?

Quote from: JaxAvondale on May 23, 2018, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 04:41:15 PM

Quote from: simms3 on May 23, 2018, 04:23:47 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

- If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

- I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven't been elite (I'm on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I'm flying to Miami or Charlotte.

Things have changed dramatically in a couple years. Delta has done an amazing job of better monitizig the FC Cabin. Big initiative of theirs....and coincidentally their profits of late have been off the charts.

Quote from: ben says on May 24, 2018, 04:17:25 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on May 23, 2018, 06:49:23 PM

Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 04:41:15 PM

Quote from: simms3 on May 23, 2018, 04:23:47 PM
Now I know for junior employees of companies it's common practice not to approve reimbursement of business class travel for flights under 2 or 3 hours, which would eliminate many of the 20-something's from being able to fly business on a JIA-ATL connection.  That being said, anyone who flies Delta regularly and books that connection in coach would routinely if not pretty much all the time get bumped up anyway, speaking from personal experience.

...................

On planes themselves, with 767s pretty long gone and thankfully 757s now too, my favorite plane to fly is an up updated 737 extended or even a new 737 extended, I can't tell the difference, followed closely by A320 equivalent.

Good to hear you back. I'm with you on most of your post except these two:

- If you get regularly upgraded on JAX-ATL, you must have some discriminating photos of someone high up on Delta. I'm a Platinum this year and was a Diamond in 2017, and even as a Diamond, my upgrade percentage was WELL short of 50%. In many cases, I was #1/2/3/4 on the list for 0 or 1 seat. I was even double digits on the list as a Diamond once. I also have a few Delta 360 friends and they give their upgrade percentages of ~ 50%.

- I personally disagree on the Delta 757's. They've lost their luster for me since the retrofit, but I'd still consider them the best single aisle plane Delta has, particularly up front, and the best non-lie flat plane in their Fleet.

I haven't been elite (I'm on American) on Delta since 2016 but my upgrade percentage from Jax to ATLANTA was over 50%. I have about the same upgrade percentage on American now whether I'm flying to Miami or Charlotte.

In my experience, and using the anecdotal experience of clients who fly on a daily basis, it´s exceptionally easy to get upgraded on the way to the hub - those 45 min jumper flights, given the lack of people with status in a place like JAX. That said - what´s your upgrade percentage flying not TO the hub, but ex-hub? Try getting upgraded flying ATL to Tokyo, or hell, MIA to NYC. Slim to none...fat chance at best.

In other news, I still hate the living daylight out of Delta  ;D

Excluding JAX-ATL or the inverse, my upgrade percentage was about 85% overall in 2017 as a Diamond, and that included transcons. This year as a Platinum it's about 50/50.

New non-stop Southwest flight to Dallas starting in January.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/business-in-brief-new-flights-to-dallas-jaa-wins-award

Thanks, although not much info there. So they are increasing their number of flights? There was already service between the two airports prior, although it may have just been several days a week and/or seasonal.

New lounge coming to Jax.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/06/new-vip-lounge-coming-to-a-first-coast-airport.html

Quote from: JaxAvondale on August 09, 2018, 09:22:35 AM
New lounge coming to Jax.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/06/new-vip-lounge-coming-to-a-first-coast-airport.html

Can't read the article. Which lounge?

Generic Lounge associated with Priority Pass. Surprised AA wouldn't consider an Admiral's Club.

Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.

Quote from: Steve on August 10, 2018, 08:46:32 AM
Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.

There have been some discussions with British Airways as recently as yesterday about a direct route.

They're looking to branch out into some smaller airports, and just added Nashville earlier this summer.

British Airways' concern is less about filling the Jacksonville-to-London flights, and more about Jacksonville not being a strong enough brand as a city to fill the London-to-Jacksonville flights.

Anyone have any idea how the JAX-YYZ Air Canada route has been doing? I took it last July and it was ok iirc.

Re: lounge, it sounds pretty generic but it's a start. Since our move I seldom fly out of Jax but it is still really nice to see the progress.

Quote from: KenFSU on August 10, 2018, 09:38:19 AM

Quote from: Steve on August 10, 2018, 08:46:32 AM
Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.

There have been some discussions with British Airways as recently as yesterday about a direct route.

They're looking to branch out into some smaller airports, and just added Nashville earlier this summer.

British Airways' concern is less about filling the Jacksonville-to-London flights, and more about Jacksonville not being a strong enough brand as a city to fill the London-to-Jacksonville flights.

Any leverage using "Medical destination" from UK/Europe? I know that it would not fill planes, but it could help sell the area.

Quote from: Steve on August 10, 2018, 08:46:32 AM
Actually in looking further, this will be part of "The Club" chain. Pleasantly surprised by that as they have a decent reputation. Normally you see them in International Airports, and a foreign carrier will contract with them. If the carrier operates one flight a day (example: Ethiad from Atlanta) it often doesn't make sense for them to open their own lounge.

Perhaps they're trying to use this as an extra incentive for a foreign carrier to try an Over the Pond route? By and large the Frontier/Allegiant/Southwest/Silver crowd don't usually have lounge access and Delta has their lounge.

This was my thought as well. I would be ecstatic for a direct flight to London. I would fly this route multiple times per year.

Spirit Airlines is coming to JAX...  Daily flights to O'Hare & Detroit starting 12/20.

https://www.nasdaq.com/press-release/jet-setting-to-jax-spirit-airlines-expands-florida-footprint-with-ultralow-fares-to-jacksonville-20180919-00567

Great news! I generally have clients combine/pro day training in Chicago. Hopefully, Spirit will add some direct flights to New Orleans soon.

Just consolidating comments to my thread  ;D

Quote from: KenFSU on September 19, 2018, 11:54:45 AM
They're replacing Silver.

I think I'll take Spirit over Silver. Not that I think the customer experience is much better at all, but Spirit at least has the capacity to ramp up operations if they see opportunity, and they have a robust international network. Silver is small potatoes with just a dozen or so destinations almost entirely in FL and the Bahamas. Now we have all the major ULCC, with Allegiant and Frontier already building sizable inroads at JIA.

Quote from: JAX_ASD on September 19, 2018, 01:49:40 PM
While both Florida-based airlines, their routes won't overlap. Spirit flew to Tampa with seasonal flights to Marsh Harbour. Spirit will fly daily to Chicago and Detroit.

Bummed to lose an "international" flight, but Spirit may be able to eventually add those and more if it makes sense. They'll be competing with AA, United and Frontier for the Chicago leg. Detroit was previously only serviced by Delta, I've purchased that flight three times before and usually not a good fare, so this should definitely be beneficial to the consumer.

I liked Silver when they were competitive in pricing at JAX to other domestic carriers and went non-stop to Florida locations that were long to drive to (Orlando, Tampa, Miami/Ft. Lauderdale). I remember years ago having $99 flights to FLL. The only down side was being on a prop plane is a much different expirence than a jet plane, but for that price and distance wasn't a big deal.

Recently though to go to any other location besides Tampa required way too many layovers in locations that weren't even in the direction of my destination that I found it wasn't worth it to fly Silver. I think Frontier has taken my prefered low-cost spot. Only really ever flew Spirit once out of Orlando so not much expirence with them yet.

I just took Spirit from FLL to New Orleans last week for $78 roundtrip. Since I was in New Orleans for only three days, I packed my clothes in a backpack to avoid paying carry-on bag fees. As long as it's a short trip and you pack light, they're a good deal.

I also just read this on News4Jax that JAX has had record breaking travelers and has sped up plans to build concourse B (which was torn down in 2009), add more parking and get more TSA scanners? I thought Concourse B was still a while from being needed since we are still a medium hub? I'm all for it, but I wasn't aware the scars of overexpansion had healed yet.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another (https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another)

Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2018, 02:35:47 PM
I just took Spirit from FLL to New Orleans last week for $78 roundtrip. Since I was in New Orleans for only three days, I packed my clothes in a backpack to avoid paying carry-on bag fees. As long as it's a short trip and you pack light, they're a good deal.

My last experience on Spirit was not great but that was my fault (with a splash of non-compassion from Spirit but hey that's part of the deal doing business with ULCCs). Anyway, my last ULCC experience was Frontier a month ago and that went very well. I even bought a special bag for it since I anticipate using ULCCs and Basic Economy on the legacy carriers plenty of times in the future.

Quote from: itsfantastic1 on September 19, 2018, 04:39:49 PM
I also just read this on News4Jax that JAX has had record breaking travelers and has sped up plans to build concourse B (which was torn down in 2009), add more parking and get more TSA scanners? I thought Concourse B was still a while from being needed since we are still a medium hub? I'm all for it, but I wasn't aware the scars of overexpansion had healed yet.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another (https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another)

Wow. Great news if true and yes, surprising.

QuoteConstruction is expected to begin within the next three years.

Quote from: itsfantastic1 on September 19, 2018, 04:39:49 PM
I also just read this on News4Jax that JAX has had record breaking travelers and has sped up plans to build concourse B (which was torn down in 2009), add more parking and get more TSA scanners? I thought Concourse B was still a while from being needed since we are still a medium hub? I'm all for it, but I wasn't aware the scars of overexpansion had healed yet.

https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another (https://www.news4jax.com/travel/jacksonville-international-airport-adding-airline-losing-another)

The parking thing surprises me the least. I'd park in the garage if it were available, but every time I show up (which is about every other week) I'm not confident that I won't be stuck on the roof of the garage. No point in parking there.

Not sure how they're going to expand the TSA checkpoints, except by getting rid of the small food court pre-Security.

The Concourse B thing surprises me the most. All of the recent expansion doesn't really necessitate a bunch of gates. For example, for all of those flights Frontier added, they are all a couple times a week-based on their schedule they should be able to service the schedule with 1 gate. Spirit shouldn't even need a dedicated gate with their two flights. Unless one of the majors wants to expand (which is possible-on busy days Delta does make efficient use of their four gates.

The parking is definitely becoming an issue. There hasn't been any surface packing available on my last few trips. I flew out yesterday and had to park on the 4th floor.

Good to hear JIA is looking into speeding up the concourse B, TSA and parking expansion. I fly regularly and have TSA pre check so the check point isn't that hard for me but JIA does need to expand TSA as those lines get congested regularly now. Even if the concourse B doesn't ever take shape the parking and TSA alone would be a great addition.

This airport is always ranked and talked highly among other airports and rightfully so, it is quick and easy to get in and out of, baggage is usually on time and smooth at least for Delta and compared to other Medium airports it is fairly high tech and clean.

If they do actually expand into concourse B it would be a Delta only concourse I assume. Jax has the largest Delta Medallion base in the country with flights all day so I could see a small new concourse with a new sky lounge built just for Delta.

Quote from: JaxVision on September 24, 2018, 11:21:32 AM
Good to hear JIA is looking into speeding up the concourse B, TSA and parking expansion. I fly regularly and have TSA pre check so the check point isn't that hard for me but JIA does need to expand TSA as those lines get congested regularly now. Even if the concourse B doesn't ever take shape the parking and TSA alone would be a great addition.

This airport is always ranked and talked highly among other airports and rightfully so, it is quick and easy to get in and out of, baggage is usually on time and smooth at least for Delta and compared to other Medium airports it is fairly high tech and clean.

If they do actually expand into concourse B it would be a Delta only concourse I assume. Jax has the largest Delta Medallion base in the country with flights all day so I could see a small new concourse with a new sky lounge built just for Delta.

I'd say Delta, American, or Southwest. All have about the same spread of passengers (though Delta is my preferred too). The first phase of Concourse B shows 6 gates based on the airport master plan. I know Delta uses 4, and I believe Southwest and AA use 4 as well (so someone might take 6 to get their own area.

The other issue with Delta taking it (though I'd assume this could be worked out) is the current lounge is adjacent to A. Generally Delta (or any airline) would like their lounge near their gates.

I'd be curious who the biggest is in terms of revenue. Southwest is the biggest in terms of seats, and Delta was the biggest in terms of revenue, but that was before the US Airways-AA Merger.

I see that Charleston just got a 2x/week British Airways direct...

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/charleston-airport-to-launch-nonstop-flights-to-london/article_4edaa636-c009-11e8-b80c-27f9947a444b.html

Quote from: ben says on October 19, 2018, 01:30:02 PM
I see that Charleston just got a 2x/week British Airways direct...

https://www.postandcourier.com/news/charleston-airport-to-launch-nonstop-flights-to-london/article_4edaa636-c009-11e8-b80c-27f9947a444b.html

Austin and New Orleans did as well.

Austin and New Orleans didn't surprise me. Austin has over 2M in the metro and has a major research university. New Orleans is a MUCH larger tourism city than Jacksonville.

Charleston on the other hand REALLY surprised me. I've been trying to see if the State of South Carolina threw money at BA to try the route. Pretty crazy since outside of Alaska Airlines' route to SEA, CHS doesn't have a route west of the Rockies yet has a London route.

Given that CHS is the largest airport in SC, that could be the case (Tampa just did that with Delta for an AMS route.)

I think it's unlikely that the State of Florida throws incentives at a airline for a route. Florida has the 12th and 14th busiest airports in the US. If incentives come, COJ will have to cough up.

Personally, I'd be fine with service west of the Rockies. We need to get on that.

New Orleans and Austin both make a lot of sense. The Charleston-LHR route shocks me but makes me hopeful for a JAX-LGW route soon.

I´d be shocked if this flight lasts...

Wonder if it has something to do with the fact they're trying to make money vs. taking delivery of empty planes from SCs Boeing plant. Its a stretch, but...

Quote from: ben says on October 20, 2018, 09:55:02 AM
I´d be shocked if this flight lasts...

Wonder if it has something to do with the fact they're trying to make money vs. taking delivery of empty planes from SCs Boeing plant. Its a stretch, but...

I agree that it's questionable how viable a route life this twice a week would last but it's no big surprise why they wouldn't consider a transatlantic flight to the region. It has a thriving economy with a regional population that's close to Jacksonville's metro population some 25 years ago. Charleston's emerging food and restaurant culture has certainly drawn praise nationally but it's history of supporting arts (like the yearly Spoleto festival) has been noted internationally for years. And not only could Charleston draw international visitors with their rich history, but combine that with the other historical sites in the region plus more affordable vacation spots from Savannah to Myrtle Beach with similar Florida-style weather makes the UK and Europe a great potentially untapped market to draw from - particularly to what could arguably be one of the most hassle-free international airports in North America.

I think part of the issue why many of us wonder why Jacksonville doesn't push for more international flights has to do with the insular nature of many people who travel. It must shock so many people all over the world how many Americans of substantial financial means do not have current passports. Maybe that mindset is quickly changing in Jacksonville but given how far behind we are in attracting more international investment and tourism it becomes more clear how a city such as Charleston could lap us in this regard.

Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on October 20, 2018, 02:33:56 PM
... the insular nature of many people who travel.

People who are traveling by their very nature of choosing to travel are the opposite of insular. 

I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.

Quote from: vicupstate on October 22, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2018, 11:34:34 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on October 22, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.

Quote from: Adam White on October 22, 2018, 11:46:21 AM

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2018, 11:34:34 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on October 22, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.

Codeshare with AA, guaranteed. It would be BA to DFW, then AA Metal on a ticket sold by BA.

To clarify my statement - this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market operated by BA by far.

https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/ (https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/)
"As part of the recruitment effort, the state Commerce Department allocated $1.3 million toward costs associated with the airline's launch in Charleston."

https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london (https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london)
"The Charleston International Airport is investing approximately $9 million to expand their kitchen, customs, and tarmac operations to support this and other long-haul destinations."

Quote from: jaxdan3 on October 22, 2018, 12:29:53 PM
https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/ (https://charlestonbusiness.com/news/aerospace/75385/)
"As part of the recruitment effort, the state Commerce Department allocated $1.3 million toward costs associated with the airline's launch in Charleston."

https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london (https://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/TheBattery/archives/2018/10/18/now-boarding-british-airways-non-stop-service-from-charleston-to-london)
"The Charleston International Airport is investing approximately $9 million to expand their kitchen, customs, and tarmac operations to support this and other long-haul destinations."

Well....that's interesting but to Vic's point, is not a direct route subsidy. Sounds like they're absorbing costs associated with BAs entry to the market. That's likely the $1.3M. The $9M is infrastructure, and the positive for the CHS folks is that this investment into their airport will survive even if BA decides to end the service. For example, while JAX has a Customs/Federal Inspection Station at the airport (entry is through gate C5), it would likely have to be expanded if it was regularly needed on a scheduled route.

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2018, 12:20:44 PM

Quote from: Adam White on October 22, 2018, 11:46:21 AM

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2018, 11:34:34 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on October 22, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.

Codeshare with AA, guaranteed. It would be BA to DFW, then AA Metal on a ticket sold by BA.

To clarify my statement - this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market operated by BA by far.

From what I can see, the smallest current markets served by BA transatlantic is New Orleans. Ottawa and Calgary are the smallest in Canada, and depending on what metrics you use might be considered smaller than NO? Not sure. But yeah Charleston is a good bit smaller than those.

Charleston is a hub, isn't it ? If I remember correctly, I flew through Charleston on my way to Jax from Germany.

So it would make sense for International carriers like BA to offer flights to Charleston if travelers could get to many others destinations via code share flights from there.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on October 22, 2018, 09:45:59 PM

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2018, 12:20:44 PM

Quote from: Adam White on October 22, 2018, 11:46:21 AM

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2018, 11:34:34 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on October 22, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
I can confirm the state of SC did NOT pay incentives to get the British Airways flight for Charleston.

Conde Nast has ranked Charleston as either #1 city in the US and/or the world for many years now. It gets its share of European visitors plus  Mercedes, Volvo and Boeing have all made large investments there.

Wow. I get the corporate base and tourism, but this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market for BA by far.

I don't know about that. I just checked their US routes and the first city they list is Abilene.

Codeshare with AA, guaranteed. It would be BA to DFW, then AA Metal on a ticket sold by BA.

To clarify my statement - this has the be the smallest Transatlantic market operated by BA by far.

From what I can see, the smallest current markets served by BA transatlantic is New Orleans. Ottawa and Calgary are the smallest in Canada, and depending on what metrics you use might be considered smaller than NO? Not sure. But yeah Charleston is a good bit smaller than those.

Sorry - my bad. Wasn't thinking about direct flights. Makes sense.

Quote from: Gunnar on October 23, 2018, 04:27:46 AM
Charleston is a hub, isn't it ? If I remember correctly, I flew through Charleston on my way to Jax from Germany.

So it would make sense for International carriers like BA to offer flights to Charleston if travelers could get to many others destinations via code share flights from there.

CHS isn't a hub (never has been, even in the older days). Maybe you're thinking of Charlotte?

Quote from: ben says on October 23, 2018, 11:08:28 AM

Quote from: Gunnar on October 23, 2018, 04:27:46 AM
Charleston is a hub, isn't it ? If I remember correctly, I flew through Charleston on my way to Jax from Germany.

So it would make sense for International carriers like BA to offer flights to Charleston if travelers could get to many others destinations via code share flights from there.

CHS isn't a hub (never has been, even in the older days). Maybe you're thinking of Charlotte?

In my recollection, Charleston is a hub of oppressive heat and humidity.

Interesting recollection of Charleston. I recall flying from Frankfurt to Charleston direct on World Airways circa 1984.

Quote from: blizz01 on October 24, 2018, 10:49:40 PM
Interesting recollection of Charleston. I recall flying from Frankfurt to Charleston direct on World Airways circa 1984.

According to the Mayor of Charleston, and the Charleston Airport Authority, this new British Airways flight will be the first scheduled transatlantic flight to operate from Charleston in the city/airport´s history.

That said - there was a time when the US airforce used CHS as a bit of a ´hub´, flying soldiers back between WW2 and the Korean War. But that was strictly for military use, not civilian. (Maybe they were doing this into the 80s and 90s as well, not sure.)

Yeah - I think you nailed it.  My family was returning from Rhein Main Air Force Base; I bet we flew into Charleston AFB.

Louisville just got American Airlines nonstop service to LAX. I'm a little jealous that's the route I want added the most.

Looks like the Louisville - LAX route came with about $3 million in incentives: https://www.courier-journal.com/story/travel/2018/10/25/american-airlines-adds-nonstop-flight-louisville-lax-los-angeles/1758859002/

The new JAA CEO looks to be Mark VanLoh, currently the head of the Tulsa Airport.

Tulsa's airport is interesting. They are American Airlines global maintenance hub, but other than that it's a smaller operation than JAX. I was hoping they pulled someone from an airport that had a history of adding some major routes. But, I don't know the guy and he could be a rock star.

I know its a little off subject but I came across this great pictorial article about JIA from 1960's-1990's.  A lot of the pics brought up great memories of the place.  It's hard to believe all of the direct/non-stop destinations that JAX used to serve. 

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html)

This is an old Airport Guide from the 80's.  Definitely more flights out west were available back then.  Get a load of the parking prices too!

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html)

Quote from: Steve on November 06, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
The new JAA CEO looks to be Mark VanLoh, currently the head of the Tulsa Airport.

Tulsa's airport is interesting. They are American Airlines global maintenance hub, but other than that it's a smaller operation than JAX. I was hoping they pulled someone from an airport that had a history of adding some major routes. But, I don't know the guy and he could be a rock star.

Maybe Jax is looking to become a maintenance hub for someone.

Quote from: Dolph1975 on November 06, 2018, 01:43:32 PM
I know its a little off subject but I came across this great pictorial article about JIA from 1960's-1990's.  A lot of the pics brought up great memories of the place.  It's hard to believe all of the direct/non-stop destinations that JAX used to serve. 

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html)

This is an old Airport Guide from the 80's.  Definitely more flights out west were available back then.  Get a load of the parking prices too!

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html)

Flying used to be a lot easier and way more enjoyable.  Prior to deregulation there were far more airlines with even more destinations.  The nice thing too was a ticket was good on any airline if they had space.  I remember flying from Oklahoma City to West Palm Beach many years ago and we got to the airport several hours early.  When we checked in at American Airline the agent told us there was a United flight that was boarding if we wanted to get our trip started 2 hours earlier.  We said yes and the American agent got us tickets on the United flight and away we went.  We just connected in Houston instead Dallas.

Even as recently as 10 years ago there were still lots of airlines compared to now.  TWA, America West, Northwest , US Air, Air South, Continental, AirTran, Value Jet, ATA, and countless others have been merged or went out of business.

Of course deregulation played a huge role but so did corporate greed, pilot strikes, air traffic controller strikes, and I'm sure abandoning the 55mph speed limit in 1994 even played a role.  Could you image driving to Tallahassee at a maximum speed of 55mph? It would take forever.

Quote from: Kerry on November 06, 2018, 02:19:40 PM

Quote from: Steve on November 06, 2018, 12:56:42 PM
The new JAA CEO looks to be Mark VanLoh, currently the head of the Tulsa Airport.

Tulsa's airport is interesting. They are American Airlines global maintenance hub, but other than that it's a smaller operation than JAX. I was hoping they pulled someone from an airport that had a history of adding some major routes. But, I don't know the guy and he could be a rock star.

Maybe Jax is looking to become a maintenance hub for someone.

It could play well for Cecil, certainly. that would be the ideal place for a maintenance hub for us compared to JAX.

Quote from: Kerry on November 06, 2018, 02:42:21 PM

Quote from: Dolph1975 on November 06, 2018, 01:43:32 PM
I know its a little off subject but I came across this great pictorial article about JIA from 1960's-1990's.  A lot of the pics brought up great memories of the place.  It's hard to believe all of the direct/non-stop destinations that JAX used to serve. 

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-history-1960s-1970s.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1970-1974.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-airport-1975-1979.html)
https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jacksonville-international-airport-history-1980s.html)

This is an old Airport Guide from the 80's.  Definitely more flights out west were available back then.  Get a load of the parking prices too!

https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html (https://www.sunshineskies.com/jax-airport-guide-1980.html)

Flying used to be a lot easier and way more enjoyable.  Prior to deregulation there were far more airlines with even more destinations.  The nice thing too was a ticket was good on any airline if they had space.  I remember flying from Oklahoma City to West Palm Beach many years ago and we got to the airport several hours early.  When we checked in at American Airline the agent told us there was a United flight that was boarding if we wanted to get our trip started 2 hours earlier.  We said yes and the American agent got us tickets on the United flight and away we went.  We just connected in Houston instead Dallas.

Even as recently as 10 years ago there were still lots of airlines compared to now.  TWA, America West, Northwest , US Air, Air South, Continental, AirTran, Value Jet, ATA, and countless others have been merged or went out of business.

Of course deregulation played a huge role but so did corporate greed, pilot strikes, air traffic controller strikes, and I'm sure abandoning the 55mph speed limit in 1994 even played a role.  Could you image driving to Tallahassee at a maximum speed of 55mph? It would take forever.

I think the low cost carriers and the overall market in general really created the pain. As an example: Right now a plane ticket from JAX to New York in January (60ish days out), and it's cold there. The cost is about $250. That same plane ticket in 1985? $250 or more. Air travel has come down in price dramatically, yet every other hard cost an airline incurs has increased many fold.

At one point in 2008 when oil was over $100/barrel, AA was losing $3M....a DAY. Obviously that was the extreme but the airlines in the 2000s (particularly the old legacy ones) had to figure out how to adapt. they adapted through market share and consolidation, which is why there's only three of the legacies left.

BTW, they still transfer passengers to other competitor airlines - it's called an Interline Agreement, and most airlines have it with one another (it also allows for baggage transfer between airlines). However today, they only usually use it in the case of Irregular Operations as an Interline Agreement is the least tied together method of airline cooperation.

If I had to take a guess at your scenario where you got moved to United.....I bet your original flight was oversold and that was an easy way to re-accommodate you without offering compensation. Obviously just a guess.

Inflation adjusted prices might be lower but airplanes today are orders of magnitude more efficient and hold more passengers, plus all the megers were supposed to drive down costs by eliminating overhead.  I don't think that last part worked.  Also, the closest direct flight from Jax is Atlanta.  You used to be able to fly to Tallahassee, Daytona Beach, Savannah, Tampa, and Orlando.  Gotta think the ease of car travel played a huge role there.

Of course, switching to hubs also played a role.

My United example was just an example.  I used to change airlines on a regular basis.

Quote from: Kerry on November 06, 2018, 08:59:57 PM
Inflation adjusted prices might be lower but airplanes today are orders of magnitude more efficient and hold more passengers, plus all the megers were supposed to drive down costs by eliminating overhead.  I don't think that last part worked.  Also, the closest direct flight from Jax is Atlanta.  You used to be able to fly to Tallahassee, Daytona Beach, Savannah, Tampa, and Orlando.  Gotta think the ease of car travel played a huge role there.

Of course, switching to hubs also played a role.

My United example was just an example.  I used to change airlines on a regular basis.

In terms of close flights, I think that's the result of security theatre that we all have to go through. It's faster and cheaper to drive.

It's not inflation adjusted pricing. It's lower forgetting about inflation.

Spirit has doubled their routes announcing JAX to Baltimore and Ft. Lauderdale starting on 2/14/2019.

Awesome! Not new routes but always good to have competition. I used to fly BN often between JAX-BWI and the route to South FL is getting pretty crowded now which is nice to see. That should open up a lot of cheap South American and Caribbean destinations from Jax.

Just took a look at the airport info and interesting to see that Spirit has announced the new routes before they've even begun service in Jax. Awesome...maybe they'll have even more by the time the first flight takes off lol.

Spirit's got even more plans for JAX.  Apparently Kansas City, Vegas, NYC, and Dallas are in the works as well...

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/new-nonstop-flights-coming-to-jacksonville/871610814 (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/new-nonstop-flights-coming-to-jacksonville/871610814)

I think Action News' story is a bit misleading - The link they provide to Spirit's website does highlight destinations such as Las Vegas, New York, Dallas and Kansas City. However, if you click through and try and purchase a fare, it's apparent that these are all connecting flights through one of the four cities Spirit has already announced. 

Frontier introducing thrice weekly service between JAX and RDU.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2019/01/07/frontier-airlines-boston-flights-included-8-route-rdu-expansion/2507600002/

Nice! Raleigh has some good international routes.

JAX broke their all time total passenger record in 2018 with almost 6.5 million total passengers, a 16% increase of almost 900,000 passengers. 

http://flyjacksonville.com/jetstream/jax-sets-new-record-for-annual-passenger-traffic/ (http://flyjacksonville.com/jetstream/jax-sets-new-record-for-annual-passenger-traffic/)

^Good news, and not surprising.

Good news! Although, I can barely find any available daily surface lot parking on my trips anymore.

Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

• Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
• A Mexican carrier
• Direct flight to the west coast
• CBP operating daily
• Transatlantic flight
• Concourse B open

Runway parallel to 14/32?

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 24, 2019, 06:50:04 PM
Good news! Although, I can barely find any available daily surface lot parking on my trips anymore.

I've never flown out of Jax during Christmas before until this season. It was the first time I've been to JAX where all of the parking was full, excluding the top level of the short term parking garage. Was running late to catch a flight, so I had to eat it and pay the higher daily rate since all the surface lots were full.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 24, 2019, 10:35:32 PM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

• Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
• A Mexican carrier
• Direct flight to the west coast
• CBP operating daily
• Transatlantic flight
• Concourse B open

I think the only of these we'll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we'll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 24, 2019, 10:44:12 PM
Runway parallel to 14/32?

Doubt it in the short term (less than 5 years). No real capacity need. If LHR can operate with 2 runways so can we.

Quote from: Steve on January 25, 2019, 06:57:38 AM

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 24, 2019, 10:35:32 PM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

• Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
• A Mexican carrier
• Direct flight to the west coast
• CBP operating daily
• Transatlantic flight
• Concourse B open

I think the only of these we'll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we'll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.

Thomas Cook could be a possibility as well.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 25, 2019, 09:44:56 AM

Quote from: Steve on January 25, 2019, 06:57:38 AM

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 24, 2019, 10:35:32 PM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

• Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
• A Mexican carrier
• Direct flight to the west coast
• CBP operating daily
• Transatlantic flight
• Concourse B open

I think the only of these we'll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we'll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.

Thomas Cook could be a possibility as well.

Didn't I read somewhere (perhaps on this thread) that British Airways had expressed interest in flying into JAX?

British Airways has expanded to lots of US cities - Austin, New Orleans, Charleston, and Nashville all have direct non-stop flights to London now.  Nashville is even getting upgrade to daily service.

BA could do it I suppose. I don't know that I see it, but I'm happy to be wrong.

Quote from: Dolph1975 on January 25, 2019, 10:18:35 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 25, 2019, 09:44:56 AM

Quote from: Steve on January 25, 2019, 06:57:38 AM

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 24, 2019, 10:35:32 PM
Yes, awesome and expected.

What are the next milestones for JIA now?

• Alaska Airlines...only major US carrier that doesn't fly here
• A Mexican carrier
• Direct flight to the west coast
• CBP operating daily
• Transatlantic flight
• Concourse B open

I think the only of these we'll see in the next year or two is the West coast and maybe a Mexico flight (which I guess would necessitate the CBP). Possibly the Concourse B opening in 3-4 years.

I think also we'll see the next garage (twin of the daily garage right next to it).

Transatlantic is going to be a WHILE unless a European LCC decides to come here (maybe like Norwegian). Pure aircraft range and capacity issue. If JAX was in the northeast it would be different.

Thomas Cook could be a possibility as well.

Didn't I read somewhere (perhaps on this thread) that British Airways had expressed interest in flying into JAX?

I think more accurately, JAX has expressed an interest in BA

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 24, 2019, 06:50:04 PM
Good news! Although, I can barely find any available daily surface lot parking on my trips anymore.

which is why they are now raising the price and paving the overflow lot

Quote from: Steve on January 25, 2019, 11:12:02 AM
I think more accurately, JAX has expressed an interest in BA

Seems if British Airways was ever going to come to Jax anytime soon, they would have done so when Jax was the headquarters for so many years of their North American "Flytel" reservations center  ;D.  Instead, nada - not one mention of them ever thinking of flying here during all that time.

We did get their Concorde once though for a charter flight!  Jax to London, return by the QE 2, if I recall correctly.

BA Concorde at JIA in 1989:

(https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/infiniteflight/uploads/default/original/2X/6/6f0415b2aa94cadfb510adef1eed1d5c646e4f4f.jpeg)
(https://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/infiniteflight/uploads/default/original/2X/4/45fcfe45d69a6bbf599dadd076eb7caac3bbfa9f.jpeg)

As of 5/1/19 Air Canada is leaving JIA ending the nonstop Toronto flight. A bit of a setback after a string of new flights and record passenger growth.

Was this flight seasonal and be back next year?

Quote from: jaxjags on February 24, 2019, 06:28:35 PM
Was this flight seasonal and be back next year?

It's been daily year round since 2017. I suppose it's possible to come back as seasonal next year.

I never got around to using that route but I rarely fly in the Star Alliance network.

Yea, not a positive. Curious the reason for the change, though almost always Load Factors of the flights play into it.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on February 24, 2019, 06:47:15 PM

Quote from: jaxjags on February 24, 2019, 06:28:35 PM
Was this flight seasonal and be back next year?

It's been daily year round since 2017. I suppose it's possible to come back as seasonal next year.

It wasn't daily in the beginning (I think twice a week?) but it may have increased to daily at some point.

Quote from: Steve on February 25, 2019, 08:54:37 AM
Yea, not a positive. Curious the reason for the change, though almost always Load Factors of the flights play into it.

I only flew it once and iirc it was quite empty. Like 25-50%.

Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)

This is good news

It seems the airport is doing very well. Kind of makes you wonder what Air Canada is thinking by cancelling Toronto.

Quote from: Dolph1975 on March 01, 2019, 09:06:05 AM
Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)

Man, 2022 until a development agreement is in place? Seems like a REALLY long time. I realize though Airport Construction is never fast due to red tape.

Quote from: Westside Guy on March 01, 2019, 10:57:44 AM
It seems the airport is doing very well. Kind of makes you wonder what Air Canada is thinking by cancelling Toronto.

If the load factors are low, it may have just been a bad fit. I feel like this route was catered to business travelers (timing and anecdotal research on price wasn't exactly leisure friendly), but business travelers tend to stay loyal to their airline and air alliance. Florida is dominated by Delta/SkyTeam and American/OneWorld. Every US airline has a region of the country where they are weak: United is the Southeast, Delta is Texas and bordering states, and American is the Pacific Northwest.

Delta is going after their weakness with a massive expansion in Austin, American is tightening their relationship with Alaska (based at SeaTac), but I can't figure out what United is doing int he southeast.

Quote from: Steve on March 01, 2019, 11:12:47 AM

Quote from: Dolph1975 on March 01, 2019, 09:06:05 AM
Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)

Man, 2022 until a development agreement is in place? Seems like a REALLY long time. I realize though Airport Construction is never fast due to red tape.

I'm reading it to state that they want Concourse B to be in place (operational, perhaps) by Dec 2022.  I could be wrong though.

Quote from: Dolph1975 on March 01, 2019, 12:54:55 PM

Quote from: Steve on March 01, 2019, 11:12:47 AM

Quote from: Dolph1975 on March 01, 2019, 09:06:05 AM
Concourse B coming soon....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/with-traffic-surging-jacksonville-international-airport-adding-3rd-concourse)

Man, 2022 until a development agreement is in place? Seems like a REALLY long time. I realize though Airport Construction is never fast due to red tape.

I'm reading it to state that they want Concourse B to be in place (operational, perhaps) by Dec 2022.  I could be wrong though.

That's how I read it too.. "The solicitation package says Concourse B will need to be in place by Dec. 16, 2022".

Yeah, seems like they want it open by end of 2022. That's pretty quick.

Yep, I'm a clown - misread it! They've had drawings done already for it, but I don't know how detailed the existing plans are. Perhaps they can just dust them off?

What's interesting is you mentioned United lacking a Southeast presence/strategy.

I wonder if JAX could make its longer term expansion plans part of trying to lure a United hub status. We're one of the few moderately size airport left in the SE without hub status, we'd be a short haul from major airports like Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte and their other hub in Houston. Plus Oscar Munoz CEO was a CSX guy...

It'd be interesting to see if United tries to compete in the SE with other airlines hubs or goes a different route of making a smaller SE airport "theirs."

Ultimately I don't think our numbers support it currently, but it'd be interesting none the less.

Also interesting from the article:

QuoteAccording to VanLoh, the JAA also plans to:

• Make its first launch from Jacksonville's Cecil Spaceport in April.
...
VanLoh said he's also developing strategies to provide direct flights to the West Coast.

But, to persuade an airline to bring new nonstop service to JIA, the aviation authority must show it can provide 100 passengers a day every day of the year, he said.

"It's a big investment for an airline," VanLoh said. "Many times, it takes several years."

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 02, 2019, 09:53:54 AM
Also interesting from the article:

QuoteAccording to VanLoh, the JAA also plans to:

• Make its first launch from Jacksonville's Cecil Spaceport in April.
...
VanLoh said he's also developing strategies to provide direct flights to the West Coast.

But, to persuade an airline to bring new nonstop service to JIA, the aviation authority must show it can provide 100 passengers a day every day of the year, he said.

"It's a big investment for an airline," VanLoh said. "Many times, it takes several years."

Come on, LAX!

Quote from: JaxAvondale on March 02, 2019, 05:27:45 PM

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 02, 2019, 09:53:54 AM
Also interesting from the article:

QuoteAccording to VanLoh, the JAA also plans to:

• Make its first launch from Jacksonville's Cecil Spaceport in April.
...
VanLoh said he's also developing strategies to provide direct flights to the West Coast.

But, to persuade an airline to bring new nonstop service to JIA, the aviation authority must show it can provide 100 passengers a day every day of the year, he said.

"It's a big investment for an airline," VanLoh said. "Many times, it takes several years."

Come on, LAX!

At least PHX!

Would PHX count as west coast?? We already have nonstops to LAS which is farther west anyway.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 02, 2019, 09:38:58 PM
Would PHX count as west coast?? We already have nonstops to LAS which is farther west anyway.

Not west coast, but it would be another destination offering connections to the west.

PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work. 

Quote from: chipwich on March 03, 2019, 07:03:49 PM
PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work.

They could make it with a 737.  If they pulled in Daytona, Savannah, and Gainesville, they could easily make LA profitable.  There used to be flights from Daytona and Savannah to Jax.  Right now I just want a choice....PHX, SLC, LAS on DAL or AA, SFO.  It'll happen.

Quote from: chipwich on March 03, 2019, 07:03:49 PM
PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work. 

Exactly what I was thinking with Delta...or JAX-SLC with the same plane.

Quote from: Snaketoz on March 03, 2019, 09:45:39 PM

Quote from: chipwich on March 03, 2019, 07:03:49 PM
PHX would be an American flight.  Not sure they would gain that many connections over DFW.

Honestly, the most probable route to the West coast would be if Delta put in a new A220 for a JAX-LAX flight.  That plane would be uniquely well fit for the route as it small enough, efficient enough, and has the range needed for an LA flight.  Delta tried an LAX flight about 10 years ago on a 737 I think and it had trouble staying full.

The A220 with its ~120 seats vs ~160 seats of a 737 could make that flight work.

They could make it with a 737.  If they pulled in Daytona, Savannah, and Gainesville, they could easily make LA profitable.  There used to be flights from Daytona and Savannah to Jax.  Right now I just want a choice....PHX, SLC, LAS on DAL or AA, SFO.  It'll happen.

This is what Delta tried with a 737....and it failed.

Quote from: itsfantastic1 on March 01, 2019, 05:49:09 PM
What's interesting is you mentioned United lacking a Southeast presence/strategy.

I wonder if JAX could make its longer term expansion plans part of trying to lure a United hub status. We're one of the few moderately size airport left in the SE without hub status, we'd be a short haul from major airports like Miami, Orlando, Atlanta, Charlotte and their other hub in Houston. Plus Oscar Munoz CEO was a CSX guy...

It'd be interesting to see if United tries to compete in the SE with other airlines hubs or goes a different route of making a smaller SE airport "theirs."

Ultimately I don't think our numbers support it currently, but it'd be interesting none the less.

I've thought about this, but admittedly every time I do I chalk it up to wishful thinking. United has a very light presence in the southeast, and nearest hubs of Houston, Dulles, and O'Hare doesn't help things.

Conceivably, could they make JAX a focus city (small scale hub)? I suppose. I do think though Delta and American have done a good job with the market so I wouldn't bet on it.

Don't have high hopes for quality here (not a huge fan of PP lounges, unless we're talking Asia or Middle East), but still cool/good news for JIA.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-club-jax-opening-at-jacksonville-international-airport

Small update but as of tomorrow 5/1 the Frontier Vegas flight goes from late night/red eye to daytime flights.  Flight from JAX is 9:08AM-11:56AM and flight from Vegas is 1:35PM-8:53PM.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on April 30, 2019, 05:09:52 PM
Small update but as of tomorrow 5/1 the Frontier Vegas flight goes from late night/red eye to daytime flights.  Flight from JAX is 9:08AM-11:56AM and flight from Vegas is 1:35PM-8:53PM.

Interesting. Personally that would be my preference, but I feel like that flight did well at a redeye

These are welcomed changes to the schedule. I love the time on the Vegas to Jax flight. That is my optimal time for leaving Vegas.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on May 01, 2019, 10:27:57 AM
These are welcomed changes to the schedule. I love the time on the Vegas to Jax flight. That is my optimal time for leaving Vegas.

No argument from me-I'd prefer these times.

I do know there are those that can sleep anywhere and prefer redeye flights, and this was JAX's only one.

I did the Frontier Red Eye and it was miserable.  Not the carrier's fault by any means, I was terribly hungover on the way back. Also, on the way there, it was like a party plane as there are ZERO business passengers, all play.

It would be hard for me to be on a Frontier flight for that long given the benefits that I received with the major carriers.

No more Toronto flight.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/05/02/jacksonville-international-airport-loses-last.html

Yep.

But, JAA awarded the Concourse B Design to Jacobs:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaa-selects-jacobs-rsandh-inc-to-design-third-concourse-at-jacksonville-international-airport

Private Club has opened at JIA

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/the-club-jax-opens-at-jacksonville-international-airport (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/the-club-jax-opens-at-jacksonville-international-airport)

Also, looks like Brighton and Brooks Brothers are shrinking to make room for a restaurant.  I think this is a good idea, as often as I pass through JAX, I don't think I've ever seen anyone shopping in those stores. 

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-international-airport-plans-to-add-fast-casual-restaurant (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-international-airport-plans-to-add-fast-casual-restaurant)

I just noticed Charleston SC has a 6x weekly flight to Seattle. I know they have a 2x weekly seasonal with BA which I can understand for the peak of the year and on a limited frequency, but how the hell can they maintain a 6x weekly year round to Seattle and JAX has nothing to the West Coast!?

Quote from: minder on June 16, 2019, 07:35:08 AM
I just noticed Charleston SC has a 6x weekly flight to Seattle. I know they have a 2x weekly seasonal with BA which I can understand for the peak of the year and on a limited frequency, but how the hell can they maintain a 6x weekly year round to Seattle and JAX has nothing to the West Coast!?

There is a Boeing plant in Charleston, I'm not sure if Boeing subsidies the route but it's mainly used as a shuttle for their employees.

Yeah it has to be related to that. Boeing employs over 7000 in Charleston and over 80000 in Seattle. Take a look to see how many flights they have to Chicago. I think they have around 30000 employees there.

There are a lot of routes out there that operate for 1 or 2 specific reasons. For example, Cincinnati, which used to be Delta's #2 hub (and is nowhere near that today), still has one non-stop over the pond (to Paris). While I'm assuming they aren't flying empty planes on the passenger deck (Proctor and Gamble help this), a significant reason that flight still exists is cargo, as GE Aviation has a significant presence in both places.

8 Fortune 500 companies doesn't hurt either.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/05/17/latest-fortune-500-lists-8-cincinnati-companies/3704767002/

Quote from: Kerry on June 18, 2019, 03:58:14 PM
8 Fortune 500 companies doesn't hurt either.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2019/05/17/latest-fortune-500-lists-8-cincinnati-companies/3704767002/

Bingo. For it's size, Cinci has a lot of F500 companies. Now, a couple of them actually located to Cinci due to the Delta hub (no longer), but that's likely sustaining a lot of the flights.

Announced that Allegiant will begin seasonal service to Grand Rapids, MI this year.

I truly miss that Jax to New Orleans route on Allegiant.

Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on June 27, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.

Hopefully, that will be picked up by another carrier.  I can't see how you can make money on a JAX to Grand Rapids flight when JAX-LAX failed.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on June 27, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.

wow...very unfortunate

Quote from: jaxdan3 on June 27, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.

Wow. I flew that this past weekend and it was full.

The JetBlue thing MIGHT not be a direct Jacksonville issue, but more of their strategy in general (I'm not sure). In the last couple months, they've dumped all their flights from Washington Dulles, will be soon dumping their Houston Hobby flights, and now seem to be trying to compete with Delta/American/Amtrak Acela on the DC-NYC-Boston runs. Given that Reagan is very tightly controlled from a gate/slot/capacity overall perspective, the JAX route may have been an innocent bystander to their larger plan (which I don't completely know).

There also may have been some fare pressure given that they compete with AA on the JAX-DCA route, and DCA is a hub for AA.

Or...something else that IS related to the market here.

Could it be a seasonal cut just over the winter?

I think part of the issue was the timing. With DCA being slot-restricted jetBlue wasn't able to tweak the schedule significantly enough to make it conducive for a business traveler. I also think jetBlue's overall brand awareness in DC itself is much less significant than its competition.

Delta seems to have announced a flight to RDU.

Quote from: fhrathore on June 29, 2019, 10:05:20 PM
Delta seems to have announced a flight to RDU.

Yep, some positive news for JAX. Flight is through regional jet partner GoJet starting Sep 8th. Flight from JAX is 6am and flight from RDU is 8:30 pm.

Good call - I missed that announcement but you're right; it's definitely bookable starting 9/8. I never thought about this but it makes sense as RDU is a Focus City for Delta. In a couple dummy bookings that flight is also available for connections to certain places as well (example JAX-RDU-CVG).

Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Now, unless I REALLY need it you won't see me on it in the AM - 6AM Departure is ROUGH! Obviously a lot goes into route timing like gates, aircraft, crew, etc. but my lord.

Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2019, 10:58:40 AM
Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Delta and Jetblue seem to be in a real battle for JAX-BOS dominance.  Jetblue is dropping from 3/day to 2/day but upgauging those 2 flights from 100 seater E190s to 150 seat A320s so basically the same capacity as before. 

Quote from: jaxdan3 on July 01, 2019, 01:37:28 PM

Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2019, 10:58:40 AM
Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Delta and Jetblue seem to be in a real battle for JAX-BOS dominance.  Jetblue is dropping from 3/day to 2/day but upgauging those 2 flights from 100 seater E190s to 150 seat A320s so basically the same capacity as before. 

Yep, Boston seems like the east coast version of Seattle, where Delta and Alaska are going toe to toe.

Of course, Delta and Alaska were "engaged to be married" for lack of a better term as they were tight partners with rumors of a merger happening at any time. There never was a partnership between Delta and JetBlue.

Quote from: Steve on July 01, 2019, 10:58:40 AM
Good call - I missed that announcement but you're right; it's definitely bookable starting 9/8. I never thought about this but it makes sense as RDU is a Focus City for Delta. In a couple dummy bookings that flight is also available for connections to certain places as well (example JAX-RDU-CVG).

Delta is also going to 3x Daily on JAX-BOS, which is really nice as BOS is now officially a Delta Hub. In some dummy bookings, it presents some cheaper options for transatlantic flights.

Now, unless I REALLY need it you won't see me on it in the AM - 6AM Departure is ROUGH! Obviously a lot goes into route timing like gates, aircraft, crew, etc. but my lord.

JAX-BOS will be nice for my transatlantic flights during the second half of the year.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 28, 2019, 09:34:53 AM

Quote from: jaxdan3 on June 27, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.

Wow. I flew that this past weekend and it was full.

FLL/PBI/RSW all gain DCA frequency at the expense of JAX & CHS.   Their CCO left recently FWIW.

Quote from: Gators312 on July 03, 2019, 10:56:34 AM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 28, 2019, 09:34:53 AM

Quote from: jaxdan3 on June 27, 2019, 07:19:56 PM
Unfortunately another cut for JIA, on 10/27/19 Jetblue will be dropping the Jacksonville-D.C. Reagan National flight.

Wow. I flew that this past weekend and it was full.

FLL/PBI/RSW all gain DCA frequency at the expense of JAX & CHS.   Their CCO left recently FWIW.

Given that DCA is a pretty heavy business destination (tourism too, but business especially), I bet it was fare pressure that led to this getting the axe. I bet JetBlue could charge more for tickets from South Florida and get the fare. JetBlue may have filled the planes as a result of fare sales/deals leading up to departure.

Further, given that DCA is one of the few US airports that slot controlled, I'm sure they want to make every dime they can on the planes going in there.

Case in point, Delta used to do a Last Minute fare email. They sent it on Tuesdays for that upcoming weekend. I saw their JAX-LAX nonstop in there many times for $99 each way. Put it this way, if you see a route that is frequently offered as a last minute deal, expect it to be on the chopping block.

QuoteDelta used to do a Last Minute fare email.

USAir used to do that too. I got to see a lot of places cheap that way. Does ANY airline still do that?

You can through third party sites, and Delta still in concept has the email (I'm subscribed to it), but they haven't sent it in years. Probably not coincidental that they've been HUGELY profitable lately.

Quote from: vicupstate on July 03, 2019, 04:30:21 PM

QuoteDelta used to do a Last Minute fare email.

USAir used to do that too. I got to see a lot of places cheap that way. Does ANY airline still do that?

JetBlue has its flash sales quite regularly. I believe I have seen both United and AA email some out in the last year. I have never taken any though...always far too limited in options.

Southwest is dropping their Ft. Lauderdale and Dallas-Love field flights.  Now Jetblue is the last airline with a JAX-FLL flight as Spirit is also dropping that route.

Man! That stinks! I was going to start using the route more starting next month.

I wonder if any of these cuts are going to affect the need for the 3rd concourse...

Quote from: Dolph1975 on August 19, 2019, 05:14:04 AM
I wonder if any of these cuts are going to affect the need for the 3rd concourse...

As long as passenger numbers keep growing year over year I wouldn't worry about the 3rd concourse unless there is a major recession or terrorist attack before construction begins.  The Ft. Lauderdale route had too much capacity with 3 airlines and 7 flights a day, something had to give and JetBlue was the winner.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on August 19, 2019, 07:12:58 AM

Quote from: Dolph1975 on August 19, 2019, 05:14:04 AM
I wonder if any of these cuts are going to affect the need for the 3rd concourse...

As long as passenger numbers keep growing year over year I wouldn't worry about the 3rd concourse unless there is a major recession or terrorist attack before construction begins.  The Ft. Lauderdale route had too much capacity with 3 airlines and 7 flights a day, something had to give and JetBlue was the winner.

The Southwest issues may also be a medium term schedule reshuffling as part of the 737 MAX fiasco. I think originally the airlines thought this would only be a couple months but clearly that has not been the case. Or it's the reason above and JetBlue was just the victor.

But I agree that some flux in a route or two here isn't going to delay the new concourse.

JAX posted their July passenger numbers which were 651,238 compared to 590,821 last year.  The airport is on pace to break 7 million passengers for the fiscal year ending 9/30/19, and even higher for calendar year 2019.  The pace of growth is slowing a bit but even 10% year over year is still impressive.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on August 19, 2019, 02:40:18 PM
JAX posted their July passenger numbers which were 651,238 compared to 590,821 last year.  The airport is on pace to break 7 million passengers for the fiscal year ending 9/30/19, and even higher for calendar year 2019.  The pace of growth is slowing a bit but even 10% year over year is still impressive.

No doubt it is good, but to put in context, every major airport in Florida (and several of smaller ones) have been breaking passenger records for the last few years.

Consider this - 127 million people visited Florida in 2018 and 2019 is on pace for nearly 140 million. That compares to 81 million just 10 years ago.

Spirit's competition on the DTW - JAX route has really brought down Delta's prices. I was still surprised it was a packed flight when I took Delta a couple weeks ago.

Do not fret Southwest announced a lot of cuts:

Effective Jan. 6, Southwest will eliminate nonstop flights between the following cities:
Los Angeles-Cancun, Mexico
Los Angeles-Puerto Vallarta, Mexico
Los Angeles-Omaha, Nebraska
Los Angeles-Pittsburgh
Boston-Atlanta
Boston-Kansas City, Missouri
Boston-Milwaukee
Dallas Love Field-Oklahoma City
Dallas Love Field-Jacksonville, Florida
Dallas Love Field-San Francisco
Orlando, Florida-Oakland, California
Orlando-San Jose, California
Orlando-Sacramento, California
Fort Lauderdale, Florida-Jacksonville, Florida
New York LaGuardia-Orlando, Florida
Columbus, Ohio-Oakland, California
Austin, Texas-San Francisco

Quote from: Steve on August 19, 2019, 10:46:45 AM
The Southwest issues may also be a medium term schedule reshuffling as part of the 737 MAX fiasco. I think originally the airlines thought this would only be a couple months but clearly that has not been the case.

Agreed.  I have read that about 10% of Southwest planes are the 737 Max. There is a genuine shortfall of seats as a result. This has forced them, and other airlines such as American and United to a lesser degree, to eliminate flights for now.   Also, the 737 Max was ideal for certain routes so those routes may be the most vulnerable if other equipment can't fill the bill or is prioritized for other routes.

I have also read that older planes are "in demand" and being returned to service in some cases.

Routes with too much competition feeling the pinch.

Pending final approval it looks like JIA will be adding a BurgerFi and Southern Grounds as new food/drink options.

Good to see a local spot like Southern Grounds get a spot in the airport.  Having some local restaurants and/or retail shops get a foothold in the airport would be great in my opinion and an area JAX need to improve in. 

I'm hoping for some new routes in 2020.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/nonstop-flights-west-coast-europe-jacksonville-could-happen-by-2022/4B62EETV4JETVM627FSAFUW4CA/

Quote from: JaxAvondale on December 31, 2019, 08:24:38 PM
I'm hoping for some new routes in 2020.

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/nonstop-flights-west-coast-europe-jacksonville-could-happen-by-2022/4B62EETV4JETVM627FSAFUW4CA/

This could happen in the next couple years as Delta is supposed to induct the new Airbus A220-300 into service later this year. This airplane could serve JAX-west coast flights more efficiently than existing equipment can (since it has the right combination of size, range and fuel efficiency).

https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

I didn't fly much in the 4th quarter but the surface lots were always packed. The security lines generally move at a good pace.

Quote from: vicupstate on January 22, 2020, 09:41:34 AM
https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

Diatribe warning.....

Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run. The big boys don't change hubs and focus cities very often unless it's related to a merger.

Delta and American aren't a candidate for major growth here, with AA's hubs in Charlotte and Miami, and Delta's hub in Atlanta, Focus City in RDU, and they just declared war on AA in Miami an are starting what looks like rapid growth there.

To me, JAX's play should be with United as they don't have a hub or focus city in the Southeast (nearest ones are Houston and Dulles), and with CEO Oscar Munoz living here that COULD have been a plus (though he's stepping down now). But, the bigger issue is United's financials aren't in a state where they can realistically take on a network expansion like that. Can't really blame JAX for that not happening.

The gate expansion will come in handy, and I think there's more room to grow here.

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2020, 10:46:06 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on January 22, 2020, 09:41:34 AM
https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

Diatribe warning.....

Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run. The big boys don't change hubs and focus cities very often unless it's related to a merger.

Delta and American aren't a candidate for major growth here, with AA's hubs in Charlotte and Miami, and Delta's hub in Atlanta, Focus City in RDU, and they just declared war on AA in Miami an are starting what looks like rapid growth there.

To me, JAX's play should be with United as they don't have a hub or focus city in the Southeast (nearest ones are Houston and Dulles), and with CEO Oscar Munoz living here that COULD have been a plus (though he's stepping down now). But, the bigger issue is United's financials aren't in a state where they can realistically take on a network expansion like that. Can't really blame JAX for that not happening.

The gate expansion will come in handy, and I think there's more room to grow here.

Delta just declared war in Miami with AA? Really?! I fly out of MIA often and I don't see competitive pricing with Delta.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 22, 2020, 11:10:00 AM

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2020, 10:46:06 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on January 22, 2020, 09:41:34 AM
https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/ (https://upgradedpoints.com/fastest-growing-and-declining-us-airports-study-2020/)

I guess JIA is one thing the city has somehow managed to not mess up.

Diatribe warning.....

Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run. The big boys don't change hubs and focus cities very often unless it's related to a merger.

Delta and American aren't a candidate for major growth here, with AA's hubs in Charlotte and Miami, and Delta's hub in Atlanta, Focus City in RDU, and they just declared war on AA in Miami an are starting what looks like rapid growth there.

To me, JAX's play should be with United as they don't have a hub or focus city in the Southeast (nearest ones are Houston and Dulles), and with CEO Oscar Munoz living here that COULD have been a plus (though he's stepping down now). But, the bigger issue is United's financials aren't in a state where they can realistically take on a network expansion like that. Can't really blame JAX for that not happening.

The gate expansion will come in handy, and I think there's more room to grow here.

Delta just declared war in Miami with AA? Really?! I fly out of MIA often and I don't see competitive pricing with Delta.

Yes, very much so:

1. AA (of the big 3 US airlines, far and away the biggest to South America) and LATAM (#1 carrier in South America) were applying for a joint venture (tightest type of alliance between airlines). Chilean government kicked it back, and it was expected that AA and LATAM would tweak it and seek re-approval.
2. But, Delta announced a few months ago they were buying 20% of LATAM, LATAM would no longer seek Joint Venture status with AA, and LATAM is leaving OneWorld (their global alliance with AA)
3. Delta announced they will greatly expand their presence in Miami
4. First wave of expansion was announced last week. They'll now have over 40 non stops from MIA. At present, Delta's MIA presence isn't THAT much larger than their JAX presence). They're adding 5 new cities, including Orlando (Which they dropped prior to all this happening) and Tampa - no JAX unfortunately.

Related, AA announced a large Boston expansion, which is a Delta hub.

It will likely will take a few months to shake out when it comes to fares, but it's about to get real between these two.

Thanks for the explanation! I would love to see some Jax-Bos routes on AA. It would make for an easier trip to Europe.


I saw a survey from the JBJ requesting input on direct flights to Asia from Orlando. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 22, 2020, 01:20:43 PM
Thanks for the explanation! I would love to see some Jax-Bos routes on AA. It would make for an easier trip to Europe.


I saw a survey from the JBJ requesting input on direct flights to Asia from Orlando. It will be interesting to see how that shakes out.

I can definitely see that working, particularly service from Tokyo-Narita or Seoul-Incheon.

The bad thing is, I feel like the biggest thing standing in the way of a nonstop from JAX over the pond to Europe (aside from market size and geography) is Orlando. If you look at recent mid-sized cities to get a nonstop to Europe, they're markets that aren't two hours from a larger airport with already scheduled flights - Charleston and Indianapolis come to mind.

Additionally, while mid-sized cities Charleston and Indy are the largest cities in their state and great candidates to get state incentives. If I'm in the Florida State government and JAX comes to me for incentives to subsidize a route to London or Paris, I'm not inclined to support it. I'd rather use the incentives to launch from Orlando which has a much stronger likelihood of being able to sustain itself without the incentives, Jacksonville folks can drive the 2 hours, and oh BTW, Miami is now the #3 international gateway behind JFK and LAX.

My thought process was that you could get a JAX-LGW route on AA/BA or a Jax-Orly route with the expansion of B gate which would likely pull some southern/coastal GA money into FL. However, I agree becoming a focus city even on United would likely aid an international route in Jax.

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2020, 02:07:44 PM
The bad thing is, I feel like the biggest thing standing in the way of a nonstop from JAX over the pond to Europe (aside from market size and geography) is Orlando. If you look at recent mid-sized cities to get a nonstop to Europe, they're markets that aren't two hours from a larger airport with already scheduled flights - Charleston and Indianapolis come to mind.

Additionally, while mid-sized cities Charleston and Indy are the largest cities in their state and great candidates to get state incentives. If I'm in the Florida State government and JAX comes to me for incentives to subsidize a route to London or Paris, I'm not inclined to support it. I'd rather use the incentives to launch from Orlando which has a much stronger likelihood of being able to sustain itself without the incentives, Jacksonville folks can drive the 2 hours, and oh BTW, Miami is now the #3 international gateway behind JFK and LAX.

What about the relationship between Tampa and Orlando?  If Tampa has international flights and is closer to Orlando than Jax, it would seem at some point we could get our fair share.  I realize Tampa is a larger market but it has a good number of international flights (see below).  Couldn't we get at least one flight to London, Paris or Amsterdam :) ?

QuoteNonstop service from TPA - International cities:

*indicates seasonal service

Amsterdam    AMS    Delta*
Cancun    CUN    Delta*
Frankfurt    FRA    Lufthansa
Grand Cayman    GCM    Cayman Airways
Halifax    YHZ    Air Canada*
Hamilton    YHM    Swoop*
Havana    HAV    Southwest
London-Gatwick    LGW    British Airways, Norwegian
Montreal    YUL    Air Canada*
Nassau    NAS    Silver Airways
Ottawa    YOW    Air Canada*
Panama City    PTY    Copa
St. John's    YYT    Westjet*
Toronto    YYZ    Air Canada, Westjet
Winnipeg    YWG    Swoop*
Zurich    ZHR    Edelweiss Air

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 25, 2020, 04:00:19 PM

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2020, 02:07:44 PM
The bad thing is, I feel like the biggest thing standing in the way of a nonstop from JAX over the pond to Europe (aside from market size and geography) is Orlando. If you look at recent mid-sized cities to get a nonstop to Europe, they're markets that aren't two hours from a larger airport with already scheduled flights - Charleston and Indianapolis come to mind.

Additionally, while mid-sized cities Charleston and Indy are the largest cities in their state and great candidates to get state incentives. If I'm in the Florida State government and JAX comes to me for incentives to subsidize a route to London or Paris, I'm not inclined to support it. I'd rather use the incentives to launch from Orlando which has a much stronger likelihood of being able to sustain itself without the incentives, Jacksonville folks can drive the 2 hours, and oh BTW, Miami is now the #3 international gateway behind JFK and LAX.

What about the relationship between Tampa and Orlando?  If Tampa has international flights and is closer to Orlando than Jax, it would seem at some point we could get our fair share.  I realize Tampa is a larger market but it has a good number of international flights (see below).  Couldn't we get at least one flight to London, Paris or Amsterdam :) ?

QuoteNonstop service from TPA - International cities:

*indicates seasonal service

Amsterdam    AMS    Delta*
Cancun    CUN    Delta*
Frankfurt    FRA    Lufthansa
Grand Cayman    GCM    Cayman Airways
Halifax    YHZ    Air Canada*
Hamilton    YHM    Swoop*
Havana    HAV    Southwest
London-Gatwick    LGW    British Airways, Norwegian
Montreal    YUL    Air Canada*
Nassau    NAS    Silver Airways
Ottawa    YOW    Air Canada*
Panama City    PTY    Copa
St. John's    YYT    Westjet*
Toronto    YYZ    Air Canada, Westjet
Winnipeg    YWG    Swoop*
Zurich    ZHR    Edelweiss Air

You said it-size of the city. Jax is a smaller city AND a decent driving distance to Orlando. Not to say it won't happen. But, it doesn't help.

I have so many friends who drive to Orlando for both international and US flights.  They complain about the price of fares flying from JAX and the connections to both US and international cities.  That is the problem with getting more flights from JAX.  If you drive to Orlando, Orlando gets more flights!  Jacksonville loses!  I always fly from JAX because I know the airlines are looking at demand.  If you don't use JAX it looks as though JAX doesn't need those seats that MCO is filling.  Why drive a couple of hours, pay for gas, parking, and your time, only to hurt our chances of improving our air service?  If you fly, fly from home.  Help yourselves and our hopes for better service.

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2020, 10:46:06 AM
Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run.

Nashville's become a sort of red neck Vegas of the east.   It's it's own wonderful thing in many ways, too.  The result is a butt ton of O/D traffic disproportionate to the city's population.   Southwest Airlines already has a hub there.

As for driving to Orlando, I can understand doing it.  I don't want my grandma to have to switch planes when she comes and visits and MCO is the best choice for that.

As for cost, I'd be curious what their actual costs are.  A lot of people focus on certain aspects of pricing but not the total picture.    The problem I have with Orlando is that to fly out you either get a flight later in the day because you have 2 1/2 hr drive + 2 hours checkin before flight + 20 minutes remote parking or you get a hotel overnight.  For a noon flight I need to be in the car by 7am to make sure I don't get caught up in traffic in JAX.  And I'll probably hit some in Orlando.

Maybe they're lured by the pricing Frontier, Spirit and others provide.  When you start comparing apples to apples those prices aren't always so cheap.     They're good for some folks in some situations.  From my experience though a lot of folks aren't good at making sure they're comparing the same thing nor pricing in risk nor pricing in driving nor pricing in their time.


Question - Does anyone who drives to MCO.  Do you prefer to vear off of I95 onto I-4 and go through Orlando?  Or do you take I95 down to Cocoa and then FL528 straight across?

I tend to agree that flying out of MCO is a pain. However, I did take a direct flight to London (Gatwick) about a year ago and that was an easy trip with terrific flight times. I prefer to fly into Gatwick when possible because passport at Heathrow is awfully slow unless you have a Fast Pass.

I take 95 to I-4 then hop on 417 to get to 528.

Quote from: Snaketoz on January 26, 2020, 09:17:29 AM
I have so many friends who drive to Orlando for both international and US flights.  They complain about the price of fares flying from JAX and the connections to both US and international cities.  That is the problem with getting more flights from JAX.  If you drive to Orlando, Orlando gets more flights!  Jacksonville loses!  I always fly from JAX because I know the airlines are looking at demand.  If you don't use JAX it looks as though JAX doesn't need those seats that MCO is filling.  Why drive a couple of hours, pay for gas, parking, and your time, only to hurt our chances of improving our air service?  If you fly, fly from home.  Help yourselves and our hopes for better service.

MCO is definitely an tough dynamic to have nearby. Flights are unusually cheap as the disproportionate amount of leisure travelers drives fares down.

And as pointed out, the fare has to be MUCH cheaper, or you have a decent sized family going - as the drive, parking, etc. are usually the same if 1 person is flying or 5 people are flying.

Quote from: bl8jaxnative on January 26, 2020, 01:44:46 PM

Quote from: Steve on January 22, 2020, 10:46:06 AM
Very much so - though I'm jealous of Nashville as their growth (not mentioned in the article) is part of Delta making Nashville a "Focus City", where JAX's growth is mainly due to Low Cost Carriers. To me that makes Nashville's a little more secure in the long run.

Nashville's become a sort of red neck Vegas of the east.   It's it's own wonderful thing in many ways, too.  The result is a butt ton of O/D traffic disproportionate to the city's population.   Southwest Airlines already has a hub there.

As for driving to Orlando, I can understand doing it.  I don't want my grandma to have to switch planes when she comes and visits and MCO is the best choice for that.

As for cost, I'd be curious what their actual costs are.  A lot of people focus on certain aspects of pricing but not the total picture.    The problem I have with Orlando is that to fly out you either get a flight later in the day because you have 2 1/2 hr drive + 2 hours checkin before flight + 20 minutes remote parking or you get a hotel overnight.  For a noon flight I need to be in the car by 7am to make sure I don't get caught up in traffic in JAX.  And I'll probably hit some in Orlando.

Maybe they're lured by the pricing Frontier, Spirit and others provide.  When you start comparing apples to apples those prices aren't always so cheap.     They're good for some folks in some situations.  From my experience though a lot of folks aren't good at making sure they're comparing the same thing nor pricing in risk nor pricing in driving nor pricing in their time.


Question - Does anyone who drives to MCO.  Do you prefer to vear off of I95 onto I-4 and go through Orlando?  Or do you take I95 down to Cocoa and then FL528 straight across?

I fly out of JAX, MCO or TPA, depending on a lot of factors. Price (especially if buying for several people), if the flight is direct (I rather do a 3 hour direct flight than an 11 hour, 2 stop flight), and where I'm heading to the airport from or need to be the day after my return (I also work in Central Florida) all play an important role in my decision making process. I've mastered MCO now and I avoid checking bags, so for me it's pretty easy to get in and out of. Actually, these days, most airports are easy to get through. Atlanta is the one, I still avoid like a plague.

If traveling from JAX, I take I-95 to 417 to drop the vehicle off and then a shuttle via 528 to 436 and to the airport terminal. If the trip is for work, I park in the garage any airport terminal and expense it back to the company. Time is money to me, so driving to MCO to take a flight generally means I want a direct international flight and the JAX option means having to deal with long or multiple layovers. I rarely do it for price these days. Fares for the places I go in the US tend to be pretty competitive between the airports and when airfare is cheaper at the other airports, by the time you drive, pay for gas, parking, food, etc., things equal out.

Related to our airport:

- Apparently HMS won (again) the RFP to be the concessionaire at the airport
- Southern Grounds is opening in Concourse A - Right now there are three retail bays occupied by Brooks Brothers and Brighton. They're going down to 2 and Southern Grounds will take the remaining one. Opening later in 2020.
- Once Concourse B opens (looks like late 2022 at this point), BurgerFi will open in there.

Hey Steve - Southern Grounds is actually going right next to Gate A4, across from Ciao. The BurgerFi location was originally slated to go in one of the vacated retail spots you mentioned, but is now rolled into the Concourse B construction.

I welcome any place past security that offers more breakfast options.

Quote from: JAX_ASD on January 27, 2020, 03:19:47 PM
Hey Steve - Southern Grounds is actually going right next to Gate A4, across from Ciao. The BurgerFi location was originally slated to go in one of the vacated retail spots you mentioned, but is now rolled into the Concourse B construction.

Good to know-thanks!

Alaska Airlines is joining One World.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/13/alaska-airlines-american-partner-for-international-flights-from-west-coast.html


Interesting moves between Delta and American.

Interesting story link.  Is Jacksonville being considered? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/08/jetblue-founders-new-airline-breeze-to-boost-midsize-cities-service.html?__twitter_impression=true&recirc=taboolainternal

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 13, 2020, 08:36:06 PM
Interesting story link.  Is Jacksonville being considered? https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/08/jetblue-founders-new-airline-breeze-to-boost-midsize-cities-service.html?__twitter_impression=true&recirc=taboolainternal

If he's considering 500 city pairs and targeting mid-sized cities, there's no way JAX is NOT being considered at some level.

I do find this airline strategy interesting. Basically it's JetBlue but focused on Midsized cities. I'm assuming the competition will be Allegiant and Spirit?

Quote from: JaxAvondale on February 13, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
Alaska Airlines is joining One World.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/13/alaska-airlines-american-partner-for-international-flights-from-west-coast.html


Interesting moves between Delta and American.

Look at this as American firing back at Delta for Delta stealing American's South American Mistress, LATAM. Alaska was enjoying their time bouncing between dates but not putting on the ring. Looks like it's time for them to settle down!

American is definitely making their move and from a competition perspective it's fun to watch. AA's biggest challenge is profitability and streamlining their operations (still too many hiccups at this point). American in the northwest is like United in the southeast - nonexistent. The nonstop from SEA to Bangalore is clearly targeted at the tech community and could be a winner. The London addition also is targeted at Delta and could work very well considering their partnership with British Airways.

They do have to deal with some regulatory issues stemming from Alaska's purchase of Virgin America and those issues would likely prevent anything more than an alliance between the carriers - don't wait for an announcement that American is buying Alaska.

JAX should definitely look to see if there's opportunities there for them to take advantage of, but at this point SeaTac is bursting at the seams. Probably no more major expansion until they finish their terminal project (which I believe is slated to be early 2021).

Side note, I still don't get what United is doing in all of this. They've made ZERO play for the southeast, which is their biggest weakness the fastest growing part of the country. It makes no sense.

At the end of the day, I'm holding onto my Delta stock. Still room to go for them.

According to this Wikipedia entry, JAX does seem to be in the mix.  I also think that I have seen JAX mentioned in one other article regarding Breeze, but can't remember where.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeze_Airways

From the linked wiki

Quote
Breeze will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including;[11][5]

    Austin–Bergstrom International Airport
    Boston Logan International Airport
    Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
    Gary/Chicago International Airport
    Hartford Bradley Airport
    Hollywood Burbank Airport
    Lehigh Valley International Airport
    Jacksonville International Airport
    Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
    MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
    Milwaukee Mitchell International Airport
    Oakland International Airport
    Ontario International Airport
    Orlando Sanford International Airport
    Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
    Providence T.F. Green Airport
    Scranton International Airport
    Sarasota Bradenton International Airport
    Seattle-Tacoma Airport
    St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport

Where would we like to fly?
Where do we think they will fly?

Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 14, 2020, 04:28:40 PM
From the linked wiki

Quote
Breeze will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including;[11][5]

    Austin–Bergstrom International Airport
    Boston Logan International Airport
    Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
    Gary/Chicago International Airport
    Hartford Bradley Airport
    Hollywood Burbank Airport
    Lehigh Valley International Airport
    Jacksonville International Airport
    Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
    MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
    Milwaukee Mitchell International Airport
    Oakland International Airport
    Ontario International Airport
    Orlando Sanford International Airport
    Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
    Providence T.F. Green Airport
    Scranton International Airport
    Sarasota Bradenton International Airport
    Seattle-Tacoma Airport
    St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport

Where would we like to fly?
Where do we think they will fly?

Well...this is from the source that was cited in your quote from wiki:

QuotePossible city pairs include Seattle to Jacksonville or Hartford, or Austin to Boston, which Ozores says are "thinner routes that don't have direct service today."

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/all-of-the-details-we-have-on-david-neelemans-new-domestic-airline

So that's where they got Jax from, because of this one brief mention. And heck yes I'd take a nonstop to Seattle.

The thing is, this is based on the Airbus A220, which they're planning on buying. It's economics were actually designed around "long, thin, transcontinental routes. Said a different way: when Delta was running JAX-LAX, they used a 737-800. For them, that was about the smallest plane they had that could serve the route.....and it held 160 people.

The A220 can handle that range with no issues, and holds 109 people on Delta's config.

Personally, I don't see JAX-SEA in our future, but I'd love to be wrong!

A Jax to Ontario flight would be awesome. That is a good flight for people who want to drive to Vegas as well. Straight shot once you hop on I-15 leaving the airport.

I'd like to see cities such as Daytona, Pensacola, Gainesville, Savannah, Tallahassee, Panama City, etc., be routed thru JAX instead of CLT or ATL.  It would be preferable to those cities as well as JAX.  With the new concourse coming online about the same time as Breeze, it would work out well.

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 16, 2020, 09:04:52 AM
I'd like to see cities such as Daytona, Pensacola, Gainesville, Savannah, Tallahassee, Panama City, etc., be routed thru JAX instead of CLT or ATL.  It would be preferable to those cities as well as JAX.  With the new concourse coming online about the same time as Breeze, it would work out well.

There are places in the Pacific Northwest that have that type of service, but take all of the cities you mentioned and take a 0 off the population. The airlines don't do that anymore. Regional Jets have made that type of service obsolete unless the place is about 10% the size of Daytona and is many hours from another airport.

I agree.  I'm very familiar with Portland, OR (PDX)  There are many feeder flights on Dash aircraft from cities in the NW.  I think SLC is similar.

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 16, 2020, 10:46:24 AM
I agree.  I'm very familiar with Portland, OR (PDX)  There are many feeder flights on Dash aircraft from cities in the NW.  I think SLC is similar.

SLC has a ton of flights on CRJ-200's, which is a 50 seat all economy plane (and at present, the smallest thing that says Delta on the side of it). MSP has a good few as well.

Behind a paywall but JIA's Terminal B expansion has been put back on the shelf....

TAILSPIN: A drop in flights means a turbulent future for Jacksonville International Airport

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/04/03/jacksonville-international-airport-shelves-major.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline

Some highlights, that I don't think violate 'fair use' - due to coronavirus connecting, might be part of JBJ's free conornavirus coverage.

Quote
Almost all concessions have shut down, and hundreds of employees who relied on bustling terminals have been laid off. All capital expenditures have been cut — including plans for the long-awaited Concourse B. On a typical Monday, VanLoh said earlier this week, 12,000 or more passengers would have walked through the terminal at Jacksonville International Airport.

This past Monday, there was maybe 1,000.

Since March 20, more than 750 flights have been cancelled, including 101 flights scheduled for March 27.

...

The biggest hit: Construction of the highly-anticipated Concourse B is off the books. All planning work has been stopped, and construction will not begin this year.

"When we will we need those extra gates, it'll be years from now," VanLoh said. "We'll just put everything on hold and pull it off the shelf when it's time to start expanding again."

That time, though, is probably off in the distant future, however.

Disappointing!

I wonder if plane configurations change after this.  Maybe fewer and larger seats on planes - greater separation between them.  If it takes years for traffic to return, it won't hurt airlines too much to reduce seats on existing planes.  However, ticket prices may go up to cover the lower revenue yield.

If this type of seating becomes a permanent standard, planes may get larger to handle today's same number of passengers but with more expansive seating.  Then, airports may need fewer gates but must be redesigned to handle larger planes.

Of course, airlines could try putting up between seats those clear sneeze shields retailers are installing at cashiers.  Good luck with that  8)!

Will be interesting to see how this works out.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 09, 2020, 10:35:48 PM
I wonder if plane configurations change after this.  Maybe fewer and larger seats on planes - greater separation between them.  If it takes years for traffic to return, it won't hurt airlines too much to reduce seats on existing planes.  However, ticket prices may go up to cover the lower revenue yield.

If this type of seating becomes a permanent standard, planes may get larger to handle today's same number of passengers but with more expansive seating.  Then, airports may need fewer gates but must be redesigned to handle larger planes.

Of course, airlines could try putting up between seats those clear sneeze shields retailers are installing at cashiers.  Good luck with that  8)!

Will be interesting to see how this works out.

That would be a SIGNIFICANT change. If they did that, then fares would have to rise dramatically. Take a 737-900 (not the MAX). The thing holds about 180 people currently. The only way to reduce and create meaningful separation between people would be to take the existing seating config of 3-3 and make it 2-2 (basically the First Class config). You couldn't do 3-2 as I'd assume it would significantly throw the weight/balance off. Yes, there are planes today that have 3-2 seating, but they also are designed that way and balance the plane out in the cargo hold (and the cargo holds are designed to compensate)

That would be a loss of about 60 seats. Unless you're going to sell the plane with all First Class seats, then you'll never make money. As an example, the reason production is ending on the giant A380 is because the only way the plane is profitable is if nearly every seat is full, which really doesn't match with how airlines schedule flights. The whole program would have been a HUGE disaster for Airbus had Emirates not purchased almost 1/2 of the planes made.

My feeling is the big airlines are going to feel the hurt for longer than the smaller, leisure airlines. They already had rock bottom fares as they catered to leisure travelers, and those people will continue to travel. The big boys (Delta, United, American) cater to both leisure and business travelers, but it's the business traveler that makes the economics work for them. I think almost every business is going to at least question whether or not the existing travel budgets were worth it. Some will decide they are, some will try to pinch, and some will cut dramatically.

I think they will all figure out a way to be profitable again, bit it may be a WHILE.

Quote from: Steve on April 10, 2020, 09:20:32 AM
That would be a SIGNIFICANT change. If they did that, then fares would have to rise dramatically...

...My feeling is the big airlines are going to feel the hurt for longer than the smaller, leisure airlines. They already had rock bottom fares as they catered to leisure travelers, and those people will continue to travel. The big boys (Delta, United, American) cater to both leisure and business travelers, but it's the business traveler that makes the economics work for them. I think almost every business is going to at least question whether or not the existing travel budgets were worth it. Some will decide they are, some will try to pinch, and some will cut dramatically.

I think they will all figure out a way to be profitable again, bit it may be a WHILE.

Maybe flying goes back to the model, before deregulation, of the 1950's and 1960's where it is really a business, necessity and "luxury" audience mostly.  Those are the ones that would pay higher fares to travel supporting less dense seating.  Leisure travelers, domestically, will end up driving more and traveling longer distances less.  International travel will, once again, be a special event/luxury purchase and be greatly diminished.  The world will become the "bigger" place of old rather than the small one it has been in modern times.

The ultimate solution will be a cure/vaccine for COVID-19.  Then, this whole thing may become a memory to most like the Spanish Flu of 1918 and we return to our old habits.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 10, 2020, 11:29:36 AMMaybe flying goes back to the model, before deregulation, of the 1950's and 1960's where it is really a business, necessity and "luxury" audience mostly.  Those are the ones that would pay higher fares to travel supporting less dense seating.  Leisure travelers, domestically, will end up driving more and traveling longer distances less.  International travel will, once again, be a special event/luxury purchase and be greatly diminished.  The world will become the "bigger" place of old rather than the small one it has been in modern times.

If this happens, we'll be in a deep recession for for years to come. So many places across the globe have prospered from increased connectivity. Especially Florida's tourism industry.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 10, 2020, 11:38:08 AM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 10, 2020, 11:29:36 AMMaybe flying goes back to the model, before deregulation, of the 1950's and 1960's where it is really a business, necessity and "luxury" audience mostly.  Those are the ones that would pay higher fares to travel supporting less dense seating.  Leisure travelers, domestically, will end up driving more and traveling longer distances less.  International travel will, once again, be a special event/luxury purchase and be greatly diminished.  The world will become the "bigger" place of old rather than the small one it has been in modern times.

If this happens, we'll be in a deep recession for for years to come. So many places across the globe have prospered from increased connectivity. Especially Florida's tourism industry.

Correct. Aside from the point-to-point leisure airlines that cater almost exclusively to non-business travelers, business travel is what drives the industry. As part of this, companies will already be looking at the travel budgets and cutting. If the airlines respond with higher fares, then they will largely go away. Businesses already pay higher fares than leisure travelers, mostly because trying to plan a business trip 6 months in advance is just not possible. But in the age of videoconferencing and technology, there is a limit to what they will pay.

Look, this sucks, but are we really saying in a year or two we will still be mandating (both governments and us in our personal lives) 6' distancing? Heck no. I mean, are we going to cover every other seat in an arena or a stadium? Unlikely.

Plus, I mean let's say in the next year we have a vaccine for this. Are we going to guarantee that another coronavirus won't come out?

^ From what I am reading, airlines are preparing to dramatically cut the size of their fleets and corresponding capacity.  On this basis, any remaining higher paying customers, even in fewer numbers, will manage to fill the remaining capacity at high enough percentages to be profitable for the airlines.  The airline industry will just be much smaller than before.  Seems that is what JIA is anticipating by cancelling Concourse B. 

If fleets are substantially reduced by retiring older planes and cancelling orders for new ones and a virus cure then arrives, it may take years to rebuild the pre-virus business model back even if there is demand for it.

That I agree with. But, the plane is still the plane. The economics of the plane are designed around it's seating capacity. You dump 1/3 of the seats to spread people out and the plane itself won't fly.

A bit of good news for JIA: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/04/14/jacksonville-international-to-receive-28m-in.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline

Hopefully, the bailout from the airlines will open up some more routes as we move into a new normal.

I think we're going to see some contraction on routes more than we'll see new routes. For example, Delta launched their non-stop route to RDU. Unless the thing is just off the charts successful, I see that being dumped. I also think you'll see reduced frequencies for the non-mega hubs. In other words, JAX-ATL is likely safe for all or most of it's daily flights, but maybe JAX-MSP get the axe.

It likely depends on how fast the recovery is. The bailout coves most of the airlines through September.

I think it will be a long time before JAX gets back to where they were before the Covid-19 situation.  Sad, as the new expansion, hoped for new routes, and continued progress are now doubtful.

Quote from: Snaketoz on April 16, 2020, 10:05:30 AM
I think it will be a long time before JAX gets back to where they were before the Covid-19 situation.  Sad, as the new expansion, hoped for new routes, and continued progress are now doubtful.

Unfortunately, I agree. It might be a good idea to complete the architectural stuff so it's ready to roll at some point, but I don't see dirt being turned.

I would just like to see more routes into hubs. For instances, On American, Jax-Mia is very good but Jax-DCA or Jax-PHL could be better for routing purposes with the airlines. I think turning these planes around with the amount of cleaning that will be done may be a difficult tasks for the airlines. Therefore, re-thinking routes could be advantageous.

Orlando's airport received $171 million. It hit 50 million passengers in the past fiscal year. Now they expect to end up around 25 million passengers this year. It took the airport five years to recover from traffic lost in 2009 due to the recession. This pandemic on the airline industry is considered to be worse.

Jetblue is adding once daily service to Newark airport next month giving a JAX-EWR option other than United.

Three years seems too long to pause this project.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-international-airport-concourse-b-expansion-suspended-at-least-3-years

Quote from: JaxAvondale on June 22, 2020, 01:17:29 PM
Three years seems too long to pause this project.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-international-airport-concourse-b-expansion-suspended-at-least-3-years

not really - the airline industry is expecting it to take that long to return to 2019 levels

Yep. Plus, nothing really stops them from picking it back up if the industry rebounds quicker than expected.

American and Jet Blue partnership

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/in-a-twist-american-partners-with-jetblue-in-bid-for-new-york-and-boston.html

We need some Jax-Bos routes to make this work but I would definitely favor Jax-Bos-London over Jax-CLT-London.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on July 16, 2020, 09:27:46 AM
American and Jet Blue partnership

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/in-a-twist-american-partners-with-jetblue-in-bid-for-new-york-and-boston.html

We need some Jax-Bos routes to make this work but I would definitely favor Jax-Bos-London over Jax-CLT-London.

I think this makes sense

For New York the benefits are obvious: AA has been struggling in New York bad...to the point that pre-COVID they pulled a ton of their NY flights - leaving only enough to serve locals a bit and to maintain their strong partnership with British (AA/BA are far and away the leaders in the valuable JFK-LHR market). They've moved much of that NY operation to PHL where they have a very dominant position in that market. JetBlue is based on NY and has their largest (I think) hub at JFK, so this will enable JetBlue to basically be a domestic feeder network to AA's international flights, and further solidify their partnership with British.

Boston is interesting....JetBlue had been the most dominant airline there, but Delta has made a TON of inroads there, and recently upgraded BOS to officially be a hub for them. BOS is important to Delta pre-COVID as they can't grow their Transatlantic operation much more at JFK so what it appears they were working towards was adding a flight in BOS rather than adding a second or third flight to the same TATL destination out of JFK. That's a lot of info, but I'm sure exactly how this plays out. Perhaps this benefits JetBlue a bit as AA can then look to add TATL flights from BOS? British and Aer Lingus are both owned by the same parent company, and Aer Lingus has a VERY strong BOS operation due to the huge Irish population in Boston so there's a bit of a link between Aer Lingus and AA there.

Though I suppose the benefits at JFK alone are really powerful and worth it even if the Boston side of this deal ends up being very small.

In terms of the benefits for JAX, I'm still thinking pre-COVID as I don't really know how the air industry shakes out (I don't think anyone does). Pre-Covid I do think this could have sparked a good bit of competition on the JAX-JFK JAX-BOS flights as you have Delta and JetBlue both competing for the same people. United only flies to EWR from JAX (they actually have 0 flights at JFK) and as previously mentioned AA pulled their JAX-JFK flights somewhat recently.

Pre-Covid, I primarily flew OneWorld partners for the last few years. So, I haven't been in JFK or BOS in quite sometime. So, I do know AA/BA agreed to add more flights to/from London through Logan but Covid altered those plans.

As for Jax, hopefully, we see some competitive fares starting in the 2nd half of 2021.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on July 16, 2020, 09:27:46 AM
American and Jet Blue partnership

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/in-a-twist-american-partners-with-jetblue-in-bid-for-new-york-and-boston.html

We need some Jax-Bos routes to make this work but I would definitely favor Jax-Bos-London over Jax-CLT-London.

we do have direct JAX-BOS flights currently w/ Jet Blue - and the fares are quite good.

In fact, I am scheduled for a trip in a few weeks. Fingers crossed

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 17, 2020, 10:31:21 AM

Quote from: JaxAvondale on July 16, 2020, 09:27:46 AM
American and Jet Blue partnership

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/in-a-twist-american-partners-with-jetblue-in-bid-for-new-york-and-boston.html

We need some Jax-Bos routes to make this work but I would definitely favor Jax-Bos-London over Jax-CLT-London.

we do have direct JAX-BOS flights currently w/ Jet Blue - and the fares are quite good.

In fact, I am scheduled for a trip in a few weeks. Fingers crossed

I've made that flight many times. It's a godsend.

United adding dozens of flights to Florida but Jacksonville not among them.  It's Ft. Myers, Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando and Tampa.  Literally, left at the gate again!

QuoteUnited Airlines bets on Florida, adding dozens of flights on Nov. 6
The direct flights will take off from non-United hub cities

https://www.foxbusiness.com/industrials/united-airlines-bets-on-florida-adding-dozens-of-flights-on-nov-6 (https://www.foxbusiness.com/industrials/united-airlines-bets-on-florida-adding-dozens-of-flights-on-nov-6)

Today Jetblue announced new flights and cities like Charleston SC are getting a LAX flight and Richmond VA is getting flights to LAX and Las Vegas.  It's kinda pathetic that cities much smaller than JAX are able to get these flights.  I'm starting to think the management team at JAX needs a shakeup or something as we have lost so many more routes than we've gained the last 2 years.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on September 10, 2020, 10:01:19 AM
Today Jetblue announced new flights and cities like Charleston SC are getting a LAX flight and Richmond VA is getting flights to LAX and Las Vegas.  It's kinda pathetic that cities much smaller than JAX are able to get these flights.  I'm starting to think the management team at JAX needs a shakeup or something as we have lost so many more routes than we've gained the last 2 years.

There are a few differences here. Charleston is still a large tourist destination, which explains the LAX flight.

I mean, we were the second fastest growing airport in the country before the whole world got sick. Plus VanLoh hasn't been here that long.

That said, JAX-LAX is an interesting market. JetBlue is making LAX a Focus City, which I'm not sure I completely get to be honest (though their NYC strategy has worked). Delta tried this route now about 10 years ago and it simply didn't work. The flight times were good (not great), but they couldn't fill the plane. At all. Back when Delta did their "last minute deals" emails you could get this route for $99 each way almost every weekend.

I think the challenge JAX has is the complete lack of tourism compared to other places. I don't know how this plays into Richmond, but Charleston is Charleston. Until JAX can improve here, we are going to struggle.

I agree with the points you make Steve but the airlines have been taking larger risks lately trying to find anything to stick and we still aren't seeing new routes added.  All the other Florida cities (Tampa, Orlando, Ft. Meyers, Miami) have seen an increase in new routes over the last month or two.  I know Jacksonville doesn't have as much to do as those other cities but there's still golf, beaches, warm weather etc.

JAX is a business market. That business has not returned and may be awhile. As it is a business market, travelers prefer a 1 hour flight to ATL to get the best connection they need on business to LA. If on Delta, they actually get more points going through ATL and don't need to take a eye home if they don't want too.

Also remember Charleston business traffic has increased substantially due to Boeing. They now have three or four operations there, including and engine technology group. Requires technical type travel from the west coast.

As to Richmond, Jet Blue may be adding an alternative to Dulles and BWI.

Quote from: jaxdan3 on September 10, 2020, 10:01:19 AM
Today Jetblue announced new flights and cities like Charleston SC are getting a LAX flight and Richmond VA is getting flights to LAX and Las Vegas.  It's kinda pathetic that cities much smaller than JAX are able to get these flights.  I'm starting to think the management team at JAX needs a shakeup or something as we have lost so many more routes than we've gained the last 2 years.

Other points that may be in Richmond's favor are that (1) it is centrally located gateway to most of Virginia (e.g. Charlottesville/Univ. of Va., Blue Ridge/Shenandoah Valley, etc.) and maybe even West Virginia, aside from becoming an alternate airport to ever sprawling DC [Note that Amazon is about to put 25,000 employees in its Va. suburbs, only about 90 miles away, the distance from Jax to Daytona.], (2) other than DC and Norfolk, there isn't much until you hit Charlotte which is some distance away and (3) Richmond is a state capital which may bring in more national traffic for lobbying and/or other types of politicking.

Richmond also appears to have 7 or 8 Fortune 1,000 HQ's.  The largest ones include Altria (formerly Phillip Morris), Performance Food Group, CarMax and Dominion Energy, each $12 to $19 billion in size, and with the exception of Dominion, likely with extensive nationwide offices, plants and/or outlets (with the closing of relatively tiny Stein Mart, I can't think of any major Jax-based companies with such extensive nationwide footprints).  Add that it is home to two major and well regarded universities, Univ. of Richmond and Va. Commonwealth Univ.

Regarding businesses in Jax, one would think FIS/Fidelity/Black Knight and Fanatics, which have big operations/connections to Las Vegas and the LA or San Francisco area, would help support Jax getting these routes.  But, I am guessing these larger companies take advantage of their own or chartered corporate aircraft siphoning off potential commercial traffic one might otherwise expect to see.

The problem with the growth that had taken place pre covid, is that much of it was on existing routes where competition just became further squeezed, i.e 3 of the 4 spirit routes we got only last year have all since vanished and they were already on pre-served routes anyway (ORD, DTW, FLL). In terms of marquee routes that were added in recent times, YYZ is already gone. I expect passenger numbers would have been noticeably down next year regardless.

We lack the leisure amenities and the year round guaranteed warm weather of Central/South Florida, which is always going to work against us, however I don't get the defense of markets like Richmond or Charleston as if they are heavy hitters. They aren't and I just think their success is an indication of the level which the airport is at.

The lack of a West Coast route is a major concern, obviously. Hell, we don't even have Vegas anymore and looking at some of the markets with direct service to there just makes for depressing reading. Fargo, Shreveport, Peoria, if you are interested, and thats just some of the small markets I've heard of. Service to other major regional cities in the South East is also poor. Memphis, New Orleans, Birmingham, these aren't exactly easy places to drive to or via other public transit, i.e. Amtrak. In terms of hubs, Dallas being our third strongest suggests a lot of our passengers are heading west and given we are served by every major market in the North East, I'd wager a large number of the ATL connecting passengers are also heading west. That is another issue. Are we Jacksonville Airport or Atlanta South Airport? We are virtually a shuttle for ATL at this point based on the passenger numbers.

So yeah, I'd agree a shakeup is sorely needed, pandemic or not.

United's moves seem to be directed at leisure markets, which Jacksonville unfortunately has less to offer than Tampa, Orlando, SW and S. Fla.

Anyway, although leisure customers are important to airlines, their bread and butter has been business travel. While people aren't going to stop taking vacations and visiting relatives after the pandemic is over, the future of business travel is much more uncertain due to structural/fundamental shifts in the way people work. With JAX being more of a business destination that definitely puts more uncertainty around the airport's future growth.

That said, maybe it's not all bad... Although the general direction is probably for reduced business travel, perhaps in a twist there may be positives for JAX in the overall context. Businesses may be looking to move out of denser cities and onto places like Jacksonville. Teleworkers might look to moving out of expensive mega-cities like say the SF Bay region to smaller places like Jax and might need to occasionally fly back to HQ which might stimulate some travel demand. Anyway, just trying to find the silver lining here folks  ;D

Quote from: jaxjags on September 10, 2020, 12:34:35 PM
JAX is a business market. That business has not returned and may be awhile. As it is a business market, travelers prefer a 1 hour flight to ATL to get the best connection they need on business to LA. If on Delta, they actually get more points going through ATL and don't need to take a eye home if they don't want too.

Also remember Charleston business traffic has increased substantially due to Boeing. They now have three or four operations there, including and engine technology group. Requires technical type travel from the west coast.

As to Richmond, Jet Blue may be adding an alternative to Dulles and BWI.

   This is very true, I use to fly weekly through Atlanta for work.  My coworker who lived in Atlanta always complained that she didn't have enough segments to get the Diamond status.  Also one of the lovely ladies in the sky lounge once told me that there are more diamond medallion members on the Jax to Atl flight then any other on average.  I remember one year I was a only a Gold member and booked a day before.  I was last row middle seat but had a Diamond member next to me.  Crazy

New JD Power airport rankings were recently released. JIA is ranked #8 in medium size airports.

Cool? What other airports are defined as medium size?

Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 23, 2020, 01:29:03 PM
Cool? What other airports are defined as medium size?

They classify them as Mega, Large, and Medium Size

Top 10 for Medium is:
Indianapolis
Palm Beach
Southwest Florida
Albuquerque
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Cinci
Jax
Milwaukee
Ontario

The state of Florida did very well with Miami as #2 Mega, Orlando as #8 Mega, Tampa as #3 Large, and 3 in the top 10 of Medium. FTL is the only major state airport that did poorly, finishing at the lower end of the Large category.

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-north-america-airport-satisfaction-study

The state average should move up next year and in 2022 too. Orlando just partially opened their South Terminal expansion and it's quite impressive. The images I've seen inside the framing of the rest of the expansion look like it'll be very open and modern.

Unconfirmed, but a source I trust (READ: Facebook Friend) posted that Southwest is going to be offering daily flights from JAX-STL and JAX-DCA (Washington-Reagan).

I believe they'll have no competition with JAX-STL non-stop, but JAX-DCA is curious. DCA is a Slot-Controlled airport so slots (a takeoff or a landing; a roundtrip flight needs 2 slots) come at a premium, and I can't imagine JAX-DCA is a really premium route.

^Confirmed....via JAX Airport's official FB account.

Would have been great for me a year and a half ago, instead of having to fly into Baltimore, or stop in Atlanta. But alas.

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2020, 12:32:51 PM
Unconfirmed, but a source I trust (READ: Facebook Friend) posted that Southwest is going to be offering daily flights from JAX-STL and JAX-DCA (Washington-Reagan).

I believe they'll have no competition with JAX-STL non-stop, but JAX-DCA is curious. DCA is a Slot-Controlled airport so slots (a takeoff or a landing; a roundtrip flight needs 2 slots) come at a premium, and I can't imagine JAX-DCA is a really premium route.

JAX-DCA is an interesting route. I think it may work. Personally, I have to make multiple trips to DC next year.

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2020, 12:32:51 PM
Unconfirmed, but a source I trust (READ: Facebook Friend) posted that Southwest is going to be offering daily flights from JAX-STL and JAX-DCA (Washington-Reagan).

I believe they'll have no competition with JAX-STL non-stop, but JAX-DCA is curious. DCA is a Slot-Controlled airport so slots (a takeoff or a landing; a roundtrip flight needs 2 slots) come at a premium, and I can't imagine JAX-DCA is a really premium route.

New Orleans or Memphis would have made more sense than another DC route. St. Louis is good.

Quote from: JaxAvondale on December 10, 2020, 03:12:34 PM

Quote from: Steve on December 10, 2020, 12:32:51 PM
Unconfirmed, but a source I trust (READ: Facebook Friend) posted that Southwest is going to be offering daily flights from JAX-STL and JAX-DCA (Washington-Reagan).

I believe they'll have no competition with JAX-STL non-stop, but JAX-DCA is curious. DCA is a Slot-Controlled airport so slots (a takeoff or a landing; a roundtrip flight needs 2 slots) come at a premium, and I can't imagine JAX-DCA is a really premium route.

JAX-DCA is an interesting route. I think it may work. Personally, I have to make multiple trips to DC next year.

keep in mind that Jet Blue stopped flying the JAX-DCA route last year

^True, but it's still an AA hub. Not that this would stop Southwest by itself.

In thinking about it you bring up a good point. JetBlue left the market because they felt they could redeploy the slot to something more worthwhile. For the space that Southwest competes in, that might work for them.

Big news coming today! JAX-LAX is bookable on the Jetblue website with flights starting March 4th. 

Yep - that's a big deal. They are also adding JAX-RDU.

The RDU one surprised me as neither JAX nor RDU are big markets and Delta already has JAX-RDU. But, Delta's timing is awful - JAX-RDU is a 6AM departure, and RDU-JAX is late in the evening. It works ok for connections since RDU is now a Delta Focus City, but there's definitely an opportunity there to offer something during the day. Plus JetBlue is expanding at RDU too.

Obviously LAX is the coveted route that the Airport Authority has been targeting for a WHILE, and fits nicely with their expansion at LAX.

Looks like Delta and JetBlue are declaring war on each other:

- Delta upgraded BOS to a hub, a long time JetBlue Hub
- Delta is investing $1.9B of their own money on expanding and renovating their terminals at LAX, and JetBlue is expanding now
- Delta established the RDU focus city, and today JetBlue announces 6 new routes out of RDU: AUS, JAX, MCO, TPA, LAS, SFP
- Delta previously bought 20% of LATAM (#1 South American airline), forced a partnership divorce from them and AA and announced a major expansion at MIA (which has been an AA stronghold for a long time). Now JetBlue is expanding at MIA too with routes to LAX/JFK/EWR (Newark)/BOS

Interesting time for airlines (in a tenuous position) to fight a war between one another which will undoubtedly result in lower fares on those routes, though JetBlue and Delta are probably the two strongest airlines financially.

Go JAX!

Was a weekly user of the Delta LAX to JAX flight for about a year. It was a pretty dead route.

Just bought Jetblue direct to LAX flight for next spring, specifically for a San Diego trip.

The roundtrip price of a premium seat on this route, combined with a business class ticket on the Amtrak Surliner train to San Diego (which is a very nice ride).. is significantly cheaper with a basically comparable end to end travel time than a JAX-ATL-SAN Delta trip (Comfort +), even with accounting for queue times at Union Station in LA.  I doubt that pricing stays at these levels for too long.  Looking forward to loading up on bags of blue chips!!

More details here:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jetblue-to-start-nonstop-service-from-jacksonville-to-los-angeles

I really like the timing
Depart JAX 5PM - Arrive LAX 7:49PM
Depart LAX 8AM - Arrive JAX 3:33PM

The Delta flight was the opposite - AM departure from JAX, Redeye back from LAX.

I am a LITTLE concerned with the size of the plane - 162 seats, which for JetBlue is probably the smallest plane that they'd feel comfortable using on the route (they only have 1 smaller plane - seats 100 but the range makes it a little tight if there's Weather). I thought this might be a route Delta would try once their LAX renovations are complete as they have a 109 seat plane that could service the route fine range-wise.

For context Delta's flight that failed seated about 160 as well, which at the time was the smallest plane that could handle the range.

QuoteThe Delta flight was the opposite - AM departure from JAX, Redeye back from LAX.

I am very, very aware of how much that redeye SUCKED. I went straight from the airport and into the office for a 12 hour day. I have never been able to sleep on a plane, so yeah  :-[

This is great news! I definitely fly this route next year. The departure time out is very good.

Quote from: fieldafm on December 17, 2020, 11:51:55 AM

QuoteThe Delta flight was the opposite - AM departure from JAX, Redeye back from LAX.

I am very, very aware of how much that redeye SUCKED. I went straight from the airport and into the office for a 12 hour day. I have never been able to sleep on a plane, so yeah  :-[

SAME!

Personally, even I can knock myself out, the west to east domestic flight is too short for a redeye....it's 4.5 hours gate to gate!

Europe is fine where it's usually a minimum of 7, except for something like JFK-London.

Quote from: Steve on December 17, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
I am a LITTLE concerned with the size of the plane - 162 seats, which for JetBlue is probably the smallest plane that they'd feel comfortable using on the route (they only have 1 smaller plane - seats 100 but the range makes it a little tight if there's Weather). I thought this might be a route Delta would try once their LAX renovations are complete as they have a 109 seat plane that could service the route fine range-wise.

For context Delta's flight that failed seated about 160 as well, which at the time was the smallest plane that could handle the range.

Quote
"We worked 12 years to restore the JAX-LAX route since losing it as a result of the 2008 financial crisis," VanLoh said in the news release. "Not only is Los Angeles one of our largest unserved destinations, we are one of theirs as well. This is a huge win."

The good news is in the 12 years since the last direct flight, Jax has substantially more people.  I don't have figures in front of me but I would guess, at 1.5% growth per year, compounded, we might have at least 20 to 25% more persons eligible to fly this route.

While we have used mostly San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose or Seattle for a jumping off point for trips to Hawaii or Asia, LAX works too for many such destinations, so this isn't just about So. California access.

Quote from: fieldafm on December 17, 2020, 10:46:07 AM
Looking forward to loading up on bags of blue chips!!

Cost using points is really low - under 15,000 round trip

Also, Pop Corners for me!

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 17, 2020, 12:38:15 PM

Quote from: Steve on December 17, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
I am a LITTLE concerned with the size of the plane - 162 seats, which for JetBlue is probably the smallest plane that they'd feel comfortable using on the route (they only have 1 smaller plane - seats 100 but the range makes it a little tight if there's Weather). I thought this might be a route Delta would try once their LAX renovations are complete as they have a 109 seat plane that could service the route fine range-wise.

For context Delta's flight that failed seated about 160 as well, which at the time was the smallest plane that could handle the range.

Quote
"We worked 12 years to restore the JAX-LAX route since losing it as a result of the 2008 financial crisis," VanLoh said in the news release. "Not only is Los Angeles one of our largest unserved destinations, we are one of theirs as well. This is a huge win."

The good news is in the 12 years since the last direct flight, Jax has substantially more people.  I don't have figures in front of me but I would guess, at 1.5% growth per year, compounded, we might have at least 20 to 25% more persons eligible to fly this route.

While we have used mostly San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose or Seattle for a jumping off point for trips to Hawaii or Asia, LAX works too for many such destinations, so this isn't just about So. California access.

That would be true if Delta brought back direct JAX to LAX flights. JetBlue doesn't fly to the Pacific. Delta is still far superior for such trips from Jax. There is a superior direct slot from JAX to DTW that will then access the old Northwest Pacific flight slots (or a direct flight from ATL to Tokyo if you are shooting for a particular arrival time)... if one is desiring such a trip.

The old JAX to LAX Delta route was about 70% business travelers... and usually less than half full.  The Pacific leisure travelers didn't make much of an impact.  Most of the leisure travelers I talked to, were going to/from domestic destinations like PacNW or Las Vegas

More on Jet Blue's new flights

https://thepointsguy.com/news/jetblue-2021-routes-miami-key-west/?utm_source=TPG%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1829302&utm_usr=b871fa92df07c29a06b466b8ec549479d1e7cb2374ceea127df3695c1d152d6c&utm_msg=4ecb522f556241f592b016de464c3431&utm_date=2020-12-17

Long, long overdue. Great news for the city.

Quote from: fieldafm on December 17, 2020, 01:45:56 PM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 17, 2020, 12:38:15 PM

Quote from: Steve on December 17, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
I am a LITTLE concerned with the size of the plane - 162 seats, which for JetBlue is probably the smallest plane that they'd feel comfortable using on the route (they only have 1 smaller plane - seats 100 but the range makes it a little tight if there's Weather). I thought this might be a route Delta would try once their LAX renovations are complete as they have a 109 seat plane that could service the route fine range-wise.

For context Delta's flight that failed seated about 160 as well, which at the time was the smallest plane that could handle the range.

Quote


"We worked 12 years to restore the JAX-LAX route since losing it as a result of the 2008 financial crisis," VanLoh said in the news release. "Not only is Los Angeles one of our largest unserved destinations, we are one of theirs as well. This is a huge win."

The good news is in the 12 years since the last direct flight, Jax has substantially more people.  I don't have figures in front of me but I would guess, at 1.5% growth per year, compounded, we might have at least 20 to 25% more persons eligible to fly this route.

While we have used mostly San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose or Seattle for a jumping off point for trips to Hawaii or Asia, LAX works too for many such destinations, so this isn't just about So. California access.

That would be true if Delta brought back direct JAX to LAX flights. JetBlue doesn't fly to the Pacific. Delta is still far superior for such trips from Jax. There is a superior direct slot from JAX to DTW that will then access the old Northwest Pacific flight slots (or a direct flight from ATL to Tokyo if you are shooting for a particular arrival time)... if one is desiring such a trip.

The old JAX to LAX Delta route was about 70% business travelers... and usually less than half full.  The Pacific leisure travelers didn't make much of an impact.  Most of the leisure travelers I talked to, were going to/from domestic destinations like PacNW or Las Vegas

Understood, but their are circumstances where some will be willing to make such connections via Jet Blue.  Examples might include dollar savings, use of or gaining more points with Jet Blue or its partners, loyalty to Jet Blue over other airlines, better scheduling match for the traveler, seat availability, meeting up with others from other parts of the country, or wanting to spend one or more days in the LA area before traveling further.

I know that during certain times of the year, weather can also influence routing and cause concerns about making connecting flights (Atlanta seems to be a bottleneck every time a thunderstorm passes by.  I came back from a very long and on-time fight from Tokyo to ATL and had to wait for hours for the final leg to Jax for that reason. And, I have experienced DFW closing in the winter for ice storms.).

One thing I have learned in my travels is that there are endless variations to trip planning.

Regardless, I hope this flight holds up and leads to another one to the San Francisco area next.

Also, the pending JetBlue & American Airlines alliance should help this route.

Just curious, was the old Delta route the only JAX-LAX in history or were there previous attempts?

Sidebar - would be nice to get flights to PHX

Quote from: fhrathore on December 17, 2020, 08:13:54 PM
Just curious, was the old Delta route the only JAX-LAX in history or were there previous attempts?

Sidebar - would be nice to get flights to PHX

I believe so, yes.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/01/20/silver-airways-to-provide-nonstop-flights-from-jacksonville-to-greenville-spartanburg/

Weird. Whats the connection between Jacksonville and Greenville/Spartanburg? I'd have expected Memphis or Birmingham or New Orleans being attemped long before there.

Quote from: landfall on February 08, 2021, 06:50:26 PM
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/01/20/silver-airways-to-provide-nonstop-flights-from-jacksonville-to-greenville-spartanburg/

Weird. Whats the connection between Jacksonville and Greenville/Spartanburg? I'd have expected Memphis or Birmingham or New Orleans being attemped long before there.

I don't know.  Greenville is near Furman and Clemson Universities and not too far from Asheville.  Other than that...  both cities have an airport runway and available gates?  LOL.  Personally, I would drive this before I would fly given the end-to-end "airport experience" isn't all that much less than the drive time.

Here are the largest employers in the South Carolina Upstate that covers both cities.  See if you can connect many dots.

https://www.upstatescalliance.com/data-resources/major-employers/ (https://www.upstatescalliance.com/data-resources/major-employers/)

QuoteMAJOR EMPLOYERS
Largest Employers – All Sectors
Company
   
Employee Range  Line of Business

Prisma Health – Upstate    5000+    Healthcare system
State of South Carolina    5000+    State government
BMW
   5000+    Automobile manufacturer
Greenville County Schools    5000+    K-12 public education
Spartanburg Regional Healthcare System    5000+    Healthcare system
United States Government    5000+    Federal government
Michelin North America    5000+    Tire manufacturing
Wal-Mart    5000+    Retail stores and distribution
Clemson University    5000+    Public research university
Bon Secours St. Francis Health System    
2501 to 5000
   
Healthcare system
Milliken & Company    2501 to 5000    
Textiles, floor covering, performance materials, and specialty chemicals
AnMed Health    2501 to 5000    Healthcare system
GE Power    2501 to 5000    Power generation, energy delivery and water process technologies
Duke Energy Corp.    2501 to 5000    Utility provider
Bi-Lo    2501 to 5000    Retail grocery stores
Greenville County    
2501 to 5000
   County government and administration
ZF Transmissions Gray Court, LLC    2501 to 5000    Automatic transmissions manufacturer

Largest Employers – Manufacturing
Company Name    Employee Range     Line of Business

BMW    5000+    Automobile manufacturer
Michelin North America    5000+    Designs, manufactures, and sells tires for every type of vehicle
Milliken & Company    2501 to 5000    Textiles, floor covering, performance materials, and specialty chemicals manufacturers
GE Power    2501 to 5000    Gas turbine manufacturing
ZF Transmissions Gray Court LLC    1001 to 2500    8-speed automatic transmission manufacturing, as well as the world's first 9-speed automatic transmission
AFL    1001 to 2500    Electronic components and systems, wiring and cables
DAA Draexlmaier Automotive of America LLC    1001 to 2500    Interior parts, E-box, handbrake/gear cover, & main harnesses
Eaton Corp    1001 to 2500    Medium voltage assembly, power distribution, specialty transformer, industrial controls manufacturing
Electrolux    1001 to 2500    Top-freezer refrigerators and under-the counter refrigerators
Freightliner Custom Chassis Corporation    1000 to 2500    Manufactures chassis for RV, walk-in van, and busses
Magna International    1001 to 2500    Automotive body panels, car seating, and front and rear exterior components; assembles body systems
Nestle Prepared Foods Division    1001 to 2500    Frozen specialties
Robert Bosch, LLC    1001 to 2500    Gasoline systems and electronic automotive components
Sealed Air Corp.    1001 to 2500    Plastic bags and plastic film
Techtronic Industries Power Equipment (TTI)    1001 to 2500    Power-driven handtools
The Timken Company    1001 to 2500    Ball and roller bearings
BASF Corp    501 to 1000    Chemical and thermoplastic composites
BorgWarner Inc.    501 to 1000    Powertrain components and transfer cases for the automotive industry
Bosch Rexroth Corp    501 to 1000    Fluid power pumps and motors
SAGE Automotive Interiors    501 to 1000    Automotive textiles
Carolina Pride Foods, Inc    501 to 1000    Sausages and other prepared meats
E&I Engineering Corp. USA    501 to 1000    Electronic switchgears and busducts
First Quality Enterprises, Inc.    501 to 1000    Paper and tissue products, packaging printing
FUJIFILM Manufacturing USA, Inc.    501 to 1000    Photographic equipment and supplies
Glen Raven Custom Fabric, LLC    501 to 1000    Performance fabrics for solar protection
Grupo Antolin    501 to 1000    Automotive interior components
Honeywell    501 to 1000    Engine parts for military and civilian aircraft
House of Raeford Farms, Inc    501 to 1000    Poultry & turkey processing
Inman Mills    501 to 1000    Advanced yarns and fabrics
Itron    501 to 1000    Electricity meters including smart meters
JTEKT/Koyo Bearings North America LLC    501 to 1000    Nearings, driveline components, steering systems and machine tools primarily for automobile transmissions, torque converters and air conditioning compressors
Lear Corp.    501 to 1000    Automotive seating
Lonza    501 to 1000    Capsule manufacturing, liquid filled hard capsules manufacturing, and product development
Gestamp    501 to 100    Automotive metal stampings and welded assemblies
Mitsubishi Polyester Film, Inc.    501 to 1000    Silicone treated PET films
Nutra Manufacturing, Inc.    501 to 1000    Vitamin preparations and dietary supplements
Schneider Electric    501 to 1000    Motor control centers, enclosed drives and starters
Siemens Energy Management    501 to 1000    Electrical apparatus products, (panels, lighting, bus way, bus plus)
Sterilite Corp.    501 to 1000    Plastic houseware products
Yanfeng Automotive Interiors    501 to 1000    Automobile interior components (center consoles, door panels, instrument panels, & seats)

Largest Headquarters in the Upstate
Company    Employee Range    Line of Business    Type of Headquarters

BMW
   5000+    Automobile manufacturer    North American
Michelin North America
   5000+    
Designs, manufactures, and sells tires for every type of vehicle.
   
North American
Milliken & Company
   5000+    
Textiles, floor covering, performance materials, and specialty chemicals
   
International
GE Power
   2501 to 5000    
Gas turbine manufacturing plant and off-grid gas turbine validation facility; on-site inspection, repair, and engineering
   
Divisional
AFL
   1001 to 2500    
Electronic components and systems, wiring and cables.
   
International
American Services, Inc.
   1001 to 2500    
Multi-faceted provider for security, staffing and janitorial services
   
National
Draexlmaier Automotive of America, LLC
   1001 to 2500    
Automotive interior and plastic components
   
North American
Fluor Corp.
   1001 to 2500    
Engineering Services
   
Regional
SAGE Automotive Interiors
   1001 to 2500    
Develops and manufactures automotive bodycloth and headliners; headquarters
   
International
Spectrum    1001 to 2500    Cable company, customer service center    Regional
SYNNEX Corp.
   1001 to 2500    
Distribution of IT products and services
   
National; Divisional
Techtronic Industries Power Equipment (TTI)
   1001 to 2500    
Power-driven handtools
   
North American; Divisional
The Spinx Company, Inc.
   1001 to 2500    
Gas stations and convenience stores.
   
National
Verizon Wireless
   1001 to 2500    
Customer service and telesales divisions, headquarters
   Regional
Freightliner Custom Chassis
   501 to 1000    
Manufactures chassis for RV, walk-in van, commercial and school bus industries
   
North American; Divisional
FUJIFILM Manufacturing USA, Inc.
   501 to 1000    
Platemaking services
   
North American
Hamrick Mills, Inc.
   501 to 1000    
Greige Woven Fabrics
   National
Hubbell Lighting, Inc.
   501 to 1000    
Lighting manufacturers
   International
Inman Mills
   501 to 1000    
Advanced yarns and fabrics
   National
JTEKT/Koyo Bearings USA
   501 to 1000    
North American operational headquarters and KOYO bearing product technical center
   Divisional
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics    501 to 1000    Aerospace, defense, security and advanced technologies    Divisional
Mitsubishi Polyester Film Inc.
   501 to 1000    
Unsupported plastics film and sheet
   North American
Nutra Manufacturing, Inc.
   501 to 1000    
Pharmaceutical preparations
   National
Orian Rugs
   501 to 1000    
Carpets and rugs
   International
QS/1
   501 to 1000    
Healthcare and government software and services
   Divisional
ScanSource, Inc.
   501 to 1000    
Technology products and solutions
   International
Spartanburg Steel Products, Inc.
   501 to 1000    
High quality metal stampings, welded sub-assemblies and major body modules
   International
Yokahama Industries Americas, Inc.    501 to 1000    Automotive fluid handling components

No sure I get the drive versus flight time comment, especially as it relates to business travelers. 1 hour 40 minutes versus 5-6 hours is a good difference, especially since neither airport requires long check in times. Time is money for business travelers. Reasons - BMW, Michelin and several other large employers in the area. Also, I'm sure they looked at existing travel history for both cities.

My only concern is can they "steal" the existing Delta and American business travelers using ATL and CLT.

Quote from: jaxjags on February 11, 2021, 02:12:06 PM
No sure I get the drive versus flight time comment, especially as it relates to business travelers. 1 hour 40 minutes versus 5-6 hours is a good difference, especially since neither airport requires long check in times. Time is money for business travelers. Reasons - BMW, Michelin and several other large employers in the area. Also, I'm sure they looked at existing travel history for both cities.

My only concern is can they "steal" the existing Delta and American business travelers using ATL and CLT.

As noted, I said "personally."  I get the business case although if someone is not working all through the airport and flight, that might be less clear.  I have taken business trips where, for various reasons or based on the time of day, that wasn't as easy to pull off as one might expect.

That aside, I am figuring about a one hour drive to the airport and parking, one hour at least to arrive early and clear security, boarding, flight time and off-boarding of at least two hours, one hour to get out of the destination airport (and maybe a bit more if renting a car) and more time to drive to wherever at the destination I am staying.  And, all this assumes the flight runs on time.  This easily adds up to about the drive time or more. 

With driving, I can leave and return when I want, no car to park here or rent there, no luggage limits or extra charges, no concerns about late running or cancelled flights, no uncomfortable or tiny seats and likely able to travel at the same or less costs (especially if traveling with others in the car).  Of course, with COVID, no fellow passengers to deal with.

For personal travel, I have generally concluded I would rather drive if I am within about a day's drive (e.g. plus or minus 11 or 12 hours).  That covers much of the southeast and south to mid-Atlantic states based on my interstate speeds  ;D.

New Jacksonville-New Orleans flights coming. Curious to see how this flight does. Think it'll do well, no competition on the rail or road either.

QuoteSilver Airways announced April 6 it will offer nonstop flights from Jacksonville International Airport to Louis Armstrong New Orleans International Airport.

The service begins June 3 with fares starting at $79 until July 11, the airline said in a news release.

The fights are Thursday and Sunday departing Jacksonville at 11:35 a.m. and arriving in New Orleans at 1:05 p.m.

Flights will depart New Orleans at 1:45 p.m. and arrive in Jacksonville at 5:10 p.m.

"New Orleans is one of our most requested leisure destinations," Jacksonville Aviation Authority CEO Mark VanLoh said in the release.

In the past several months, Silver Airways added flights from Jacksonville to Tampa, Fort Lauderdale and Greenville-Spartanburg, South Carolina.

I'm hopeful this route will fare better than the Allegiant route. The additional gates at the MSY should help as well.

Jetblue is adding service from JAX to Laguardia starting in October, this is in addition to the existing JFK service.

Pretty disappointing that JAX didn't feature at all in Breeze initial plans. Hubs in Tampa, New Orleans and Charleston. Looks like their business plan is mainly unserved p2p routes between mid/smaller sized cities on reduced frequencies to keep them viable. MSY and CHS especially gained a lot of previously unserved routes out of it. With the population growth in Jacksonville I thought we would have had a shot. Wonder what put them off. Lack of leisure traffic? Silver adding a few routes recently?

Quote from: landfall on May 23, 2021, 06:01:53 AM
Pretty disappointing that JAX didn't feature at all in Breeze initial plans. Hubs in Tampa, New Orleans and Charleston. Looks like their business plan is mainly unserved p2p routes between mid/smaller sized cities on reduced frequencies to keep them viable. MSY and CHS especially gained a lot of previously unserved routes out of it. With the population growth in Jacksonville I thought we would have had a shot. Wonder what put them off. Lack of leisure traffic? Silver adding a few routes recently?

Their initial fleet is small, 13 planes according to their press release.  Once they start receiving their order of the new long range A220-300s I think JAX will have a good chance at being added.

Does anyone know how the JAX-LAX flights are doing?

Quote from: landfall on May 23, 2021, 06:01:53 AM
Pretty disappointing that JAX didn't feature at all in Breeze initial plans. Hubs in Tampa, New Orleans and Charleston. Looks like their business plan is mainly unserved p2p routes between mid/smaller sized cities on reduced frequencies to keep them viable. MSY and CHS especially gained a lot of previously unserved routes out of it. With the population growth in Jacksonville I thought we would have had a shot. Wonder what put them off. Lack of leisure traffic? Silver adding a few routes recently?

My theory I'm hoping is true is that Breeze Airlines is a front for JetBlue to slowly get rid of their old Embraer planes so they can replace them with new Airbus jets. The JFK-JAX flights were always busy but the most recent EWR-JAX flights I took were totally packed and a nice wider A320 for the flights would have been welcome.

As for the JAX-LAX flights they seemed to be doing ok with the special introductory airfares - not a ton of unsold seats for many flights I looked at. I really hope this run is successful enough for JetBlue to keep this year-round. I have friends wanting to head with me to LA for the Jags-Rams matchup this fall. 

American Airlines adding a daily nonstop to Austin starting September 8th.

Can't get enough non stop flights.

Keep them coming!



https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-to-austin-direct-flights-starting-in-september

Work on Concourse B moving forward again

QuoteJust over a year ago, the Jacksonville Aviation Authority hit the pause button on its plans for Concourse B — a multimillion-dollar project designed to deal with ever-growing passenger numbers.

With the number of travelers cratering as the Covd-19 pandemic took hold, that project became less necessary. Now, though, as fliers return to the sky, the $200 million project is back on track, with the engineering team of Jacobs and RS&H returning to the design process.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/07/19/concourse-b-back-on-track.html

Would love to see PHX, SLC, SEA, or PDX.

JAX-LaGuardia just announced 2X Daily by JetBlue as part of a massive JetBlue expansion at LGA. Only downside is JetBlue is leaving the Marine Air Terminal which was a nice convenience for those travelers.

And now Delta is dumping JAX-RDU. Not a shock there.

Personally I was more shocked when they announced the route.  Didn't realize there was a need.

San Juan, Puerto Rico (SJU) is back, this time on Frontier flying 3 times weekly starting November 1st.

I have regular business in San Juan so this route is very much appreciated. I just wish it was almost any other carrier besides Frontier.

Sun Country (Regional Airline based at MSP) announced they are expanding to JAX.

Your move, Alaska Airlines!  ;D

From what I can gather, Sun Country is a misfit airline.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/sun-country-airlines-to-begin-jacksonville-service-with-flights-to-minneapolis

More flights from JAX

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/11/18/allegiant-begins-nonstop-service-from-jacksonville-to-nashville-dc-area/

Earlier I read about yet another allegiant expansion, which includes a seasonal between Flint, MI and Jax. Surprising pairing.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 09, 2021, 12:04:28 PM
Earlier I read about yet another allegiant expansion, which includes a seasonal between Flint, MI and Jax. Surprising pairing.

Interesting... I mean obviously they wouldn't set up that route if there wasn't money to be made. Just seems like a really random destination pairing. I can't imagine many people from Jax are eager to visit Flint.

^ The article I read says these flights are targeted to spring breakers.  So they will be seasonal as a result.

I've flown in and out of Flint several times to get to Battle Creek. We pick airports based on what's cheapest each time.

Flint acts as Detroit's alternate airport. If you live on the north side of the metro, it can take just as long to get to Flint as DTW, with the added bonus of a smaller airport. Spirit used to have DTW-JAX flights, maybe FNT-JAX can be more successful with an LCC.

Quote from: Tacachale on December 09, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
I've flown in and out of Flint several times to get to Battle Creek. We pick airports based on what's cheapest each time.

Is this a nice destination for summer vacay? I've been trying to find a spot for summertime in UP/northern MI.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 10, 2021, 11:07:47 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on December 09, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
I've flown in and out of Flint several times to get to Battle Creek. We pick airports based on what's cheapest each time.

Is this a nice destination for summer vacay? I've been trying to find a spot for summertime in UP/northern MI.

Bellaire MI, Traverse City, Suttons Bay.

There's not too much to Battle Creek, unfortunately, but it's close to a lot of cool places. Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids are fun cities, especially if you like craft beer and cider. In the summer we also spend a lot of time around South Haven on Lake Michigan. We love Detroit, it's very underrated IMO. I've never been too far north in MI but my family raves about Traverse City and the area around that. Frankly in the summer I don't think you can go wrong anywhere on the Lale Michigan side.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 10, 2021, 11:07:47 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on December 09, 2021, 06:39:17 PM
I've flown in and out of Flint several times to get to Battle Creek. We pick airports based on what's cheapest each time.

Is this a nice destination for summer vacay? I've been trying to find a spot for summertime in UP/northern MI.

Traverse City area definitely.

Things to do: wineries (So. Many. Wineries and Vineyards), Sleeping Bear Dunes NL, Fishtown in Leland, Torch Lake is known for it's clarity, Bellaire is home to Shorts Brewing Co. Charlevoix and Petoskey are also great small towns, and the Tunnel of Trees near Petoskey is a destination for leaf peepers. Mackinac Island would make a great day trip from TC.

As far as the UP goes, you have to be the outdoorsy type because of its remoteness (Copper Harbor is the furthest town from an interstate in the 48), but the western half has a lot of natural beauty in the mountains. Tour boats for Pictured Rocks NL have to be booked months in advance. And the best mountain biking in the midwest can be found in the area. Marquette, Houghton, and Duluth are my 3 favorite towns in the US, but I love the outdoors.

Southwest Airlines will end the JAX-DCA route in "early June", 2022.

Seems to be Jacksonville is losing flights where a lot of other markets are holding steady or even adding. Heard that Southwest might be cutting DEN in addition to DCA. Anyone know why?

Florida-based Spirit Airlines is being acquired by Colorado-based Frontier Airlines (pending federal approval of the merger).
Interestingly, Frontier serves JAX but Spirit does not. Thoughts on how this may affect JAX? More flights? Fewer?

Looks like the Southwest JAX -DEN nonstop last day is June 4 according to their schedule.  JAX-DEN is also served nonstop by United and Frontier.  That likely had some bearing on their decision to end that route.  Somewhat disappointing though.  Sometimes I wonder why Southwest even serves JAX.  The number of nonstop cities from JAX they have dropped over the years is substantial. It would be nice if they added another western connection point such as Phoenix or perhaps return to Las Vegas, but both are highly unlikely.  It seems that they are aggressively expanding to new cities, and there are much more profitable opportunities in city pairs other than JAX.

I think there's a few things going on here:

1. DCA is a slot-controlled airport (only other ones in the US are LGA and JFK). Since demand would normally bring extra flights but they can't, the airlines will generally reuse DCA slots if they can charge more. If they can get $200 a seat for JAX-DCA but $250 for XXX-DCA, they're going to pull the flight every time.
2. Leisure travel is largely back and recovered. Business travel has not. JAX isn't a huge leisure airport like MCO others.
3. Southwest seems to be moving - slowly - towards a more traditional hub and spoke model. This likely will result in less non-stops on Southwest from JAX.
4. I do agree JAX seems to be allergic to crossing the Rockies. I'm personally annoyed by that after having to go to Boise last week - cool city but GIGANTIC pain to get to and from. Once SLC's construction is done and they're back to firing on all cylinders, the Admin folks at JAX needs to bring Delta a suitcase for a nonstop to SLC, or AA to PHX for the American folks.
5. Frontier/Spirit wasn't necessarily expected but noteworthy because of their combined size. I think it will be a wash for JAX personally.
6. I think what flights to and from JAX are today and even this summer may not be indicative of what 2023 and beyond looks like. I think it's going to take years for the industry to shake out.

If your into watching planes land, here is a recording from this week of a day's worth of planes from around the world, representing numerous global airlines and plane types, landing at London's Heathrow Airport in strong crosswinds resulting in numerous "fly arounds."  Comes complete with charming British-style commentary :).   Viewed live by several hundred thousand viewers!

QuoteWatch Planes Battle Storm Eunice At Heathrow

https://onemileatatime.com/news/storm-eunice-heathrow/

(https://cdn.onemileatatime.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/LHR-Go-Around.jpg?width=1980&auto_optimize=low&quality=75&height=600&aspect_ratio=33%3A10)

New Airline for JAX announcement at 9AM tomorrow from the airport authority.

Curious who - they already announced Sun Country. Spirit I wouldn't count since Frontier and them are merging (that would be a crappy announcement).

Assuming this is a REAL new airline, then I'd say it's either Alaska or WestJet (low cost Canada airline).

Aeroflot?  ;)

I'm guessing Breeze

Something a bit more international would be amazing....

Air Canada coming back?  Oops, they missed the winter season :).

It's Breeze, flights to Columbus, Hartford, Vegas, New Orleans, Norfolk, Providence, and Richmond. 

Yep. Forgot about Breeze. Interesting mix of markets. I don't think they all will end up working, but it's a shot.

Still tragically allergic to crossing the Rocky Mountains at JAX

Quote from: Steve on March 08, 2022, 07:56:25 AM
Yep. Forgot about Breeze. Interesting mix of markets. I don't think they all will end up working, but it's a shot.

Still tragically allergic to crossing the Rocky Mountains at JAX

Sounds about right since smaller airports like Richmond and Charleston got San Francisco and Savannah got LAX.

Breeze it is:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2022/03/08/breeze-airways-new-flights/9347904002/

Business Journal: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2022/03/08/jaa-breeze-airways.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=BN&utm_content=ja&ana=e_ja_BN&j=26950694&senddate=2022-03-08

Looks like the city will kick in $1 million for marketing.

Quote
The city is looking to commit $1 million to market seven new nonstop flights from Jacksonville International Airport to a range of cities, including Las Vegas — the top destination currently not served by the airport.

The cities that Breeze will serve from Jacksonville are Las Vegas; New Orleans; Columbus, Ohio; Providence, Rhode Island; Hartford, Connecticut; and Norfolk and Richmond, Virginia

"One single airline coming to town, announcing this many cities, it's never happened before," said Jacksonville Aviation Authority CEO Mark VanLoh. "...This was their biggest major city announcement they have ever done. And, trust me, there will be more."

Jacksonville Mayor Lenny Curry said he will introduce legislation that would see the city commit $1 million to market the Breeze routes to and from Jacksonville.

Could this be...an actual airline...not an imaginary one...is considering Jacksonville...as a FOCUS CITY?!?!

Great news for JAX but we really need to get those design plans up and running for Concourse B. My evening flight got seriously delayed because a mechanical issue that sidelined a plane in the morning had other planes scrambling for an open gate the rest of that day.

Concourse B plans are in design now....they're working. Personally I think they'd all agree it was a mistake to pause.

Breeze's model is more of the historic Southwest model - point to point routes versus more of a hub and spoke model.

This is fantastic news, it's all unserved or routes that are either low frequency or seasonal.

Quote from: Tacachale on December 11, 2021, 04:13:41 PM
There's not too much to Battle Creek, unfortunately, but it's close to a lot of cool places. Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids are fun cities, especially if you like craft beer and cider. In the summer we also spend a lot of time around South Haven on Lake Michigan. We love Detroit, it's very underrated IMO. I've never been too far north in MI but my family raves about Traverse City and the area around that. Frankly in the summer I don't think you can go wrong anywhere on the Lale Michigan side.

Thanks. I am quite fond of Detroit as well! The rest of Michigan is a puzzle to me though, because there are just soooo many small-midsized towns that get a ton of love. I don't really know how to break it down or take that first step of exploration. (I spent some time in St Joseph so have gotten a tiny taste)

JetBlue "suspending" the Jax/Newark route
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jetblue-flights-airline-to-cut-27-routes-this-summer/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=158770405&fbclid=IwAR309ssSs3UVyIL7yO7LvcYaCgrpAlDrHkY8xigUCbUC46kXR0_bwDHrbOU

Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 30, 2022, 04:10:14 PM
JetBlue "suspending" the Jax/Newark route
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jetblue-flights-airline-to-cut-27-routes-this-summer/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=158770405&fbclid=IwAR309ssSs3UVyIL7yO7LvcYaCgrpAlDrHkY8xigUCbUC46kXR0_bwDHrbOU

As much as the JAX/EWR suspension inconveniences me its totally understandable. There will probably be a lot of transition problems from the shutdown of Newark's shitty Terminal A. The suspensions should be temporary given the demand even with the additional flight from LaGuardia to JAX.

When they resume JetBlue flights it will hopefully be in the new Terminal One and passengers will no longer deal with the overcrowded conditions, lack of gates, subpar amenities, clusterfuck security backups, and constant flight delays that plagued the old 70's style terminal.

Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on March 31, 2022, 01:04:36 AM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 30, 2022, 04:10:14 PM
JetBlue "suspending" the Jax/Newark route
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jetblue-flights-airline-to-cut-27-routes-this-summer/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=158770405&fbclid=IwAR309ssSs3UVyIL7yO7LvcYaCgrpAlDrHkY8xigUCbUC46kXR0_bwDHrbOU

As much as the JAX/EWR suspension inconveniences me its totally understandable. There will probably be a lot of transition problems from the shutdown of Newark's shitty Terminal A. The suspensions should be temporary given the demand even with the additional flight from LaGuardia to JAX.

When they resume JetBlue flights it will hopefully be in the new Terminal One and passengers will no longer deal with the overcrowded conditions, lack of gates, subpar amenities, clusterfuck security backups, and constant flight delays that plagued the old 70's style terminal.

I saw on the news this weekend that all three NYC Metro airports are undergoing major renovation projects.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 31, 2022, 09:20:03 AM

Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on March 31, 2022, 01:04:36 AM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 30, 2022, 04:10:14 PM
JetBlue "suspending" the Jax/Newark route
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jetblue-flights-airline-to-cut-27-routes-this-summer/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=158770405&fbclid=IwAR309ssSs3UVyIL7yO7LvcYaCgrpAlDrHkY8xigUCbUC46kXR0_bwDHrbOU

As much as the JAX/EWR suspension inconveniences me its totally understandable. There will probably be a lot of transition problems from the shutdown of Newark's shitty Terminal A. The suspensions should be temporary given the demand even with the additional flight from LaGuardia to JAX.

When they resume JetBlue flights it will hopefully be in the new Terminal One and passengers will no longer deal with the overcrowded conditions, lack of gates, subpar amenities, clusterfuck security backups, and constant flight delays that plagued the old 70's style terminal.

I saw on the news this weekend that all three NYC Metro airports are undergoing major renovation projects.

Yes:

LGA: Full rebuild of the entire place end to end, on top of the existing airport. Terminal B (everyone but Delta) will be done later this year, Terminal C (Delta) in 2023/2024, though the major work will wrap before summer.

JFK: Demolish and rebuild Terminal 1 (bunch of Internal airlines, include Air France, Korean, Lufthansa, and Japan), which will take up the footprint of current Terminal 1 and 2 (Delta). Delta is consolidating in Terminal 4 (where they already are the largest airline), which will result in some airlines moving from 4 to 1. JetBlue is Building Terminal 6 (on the site of a formerly demolished terminal 6), which is really an addition on their Terminal 5. Terminal 7 will then be demolished, and the existing capacity will be absorbed by the Terminal 6 Expansion and the Terminal 8 (American/British) Expansion

EWR: Rebuild of Terminal A

To get an idea how out of date Terminal A at Newark airport is (and take a step back in time) if you arrive and get off at Terminal A (by taking a flight from any domestic airline not named United) and exit through the underground level that is the drop off and pick up for local and out of state busses and private parking operators.

You will see rows and rows of parking spaces that used to be short term and VIP parking. After the attacks of September 11th the airport closed off that entire section because the parking spaces were directly underneath the terminal and would be highly susceptible to car bomb attacks so it has remained totally abandoned and not repurposed in any way to this day.

In some of the corridors and hallways of this former garage, you can still see some tattered, weather-beaten old advertisements circa 2001. Its like a real creepy time capsule - and it will all be gone by this summer hopefully.

Good riddance!

I still think the old LGA took the cake for most outdated airport!

Breeze launching JAX-HPN (Westchester County, NY):

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breeze-airways-westchester-county-airport/

It's not really convenient if you're going to Manhattan, but if you're visiting people in Westchester or upstate it could be an option.


Another tidbit of note....they're launching HPN-MSY (New Orleans) via JAX. Probably the first time in a while JAX is being used as a scheduled stopover for a flight. I'm guessing they're trying to serve multiple markets with the same plane as the A220's they're using have transcontinental range.

Quote from: Steve on April 22, 2022, 09:24:52 AM
Breeze launching JAX-HPN (Westchester County, NY):

https://thepointsguy.com/news/breeze-airways-westchester-county-airport/

It's not really convenient if you're going to Manhattan, but if you're visiting people in Westchester or upstate it could be an option.


Another tidbit of note....they're launching HPN-MSY (New Orleans) via JAX. Probably the first time in a while JAX is being used as a scheduled stopover for a flight. I'm guessing they're trying to serve multiple markets with the same plane as the A220's they're using have transcontinental range.

Wow, very interesting on both fronts. Thanks for the info

"I saw on the news this weekend that all three NYC Metro airports are undergoing major renovation projects."

Does this have anything to do with Biden's infrastructure plan?

Interesting article on how the FAA's Jacksonville Control Center is #1 in the nation in traffic growth and how that is actually limiting airline flights into Florida.  Good news is the FAA is hiring here to add more controllers to help better the issue but more is needed, apparently.  Increase private jet traffic and Elon's rocket launches are adding to the problems (I recently had a relative fly here from Detroit and the plane was delayed by hours due to Florida airspace being closed for a Space X rocket launch,)

QuoteFlorida Flights Face Worst Delays in Years Thanks to Private Jets and Space Launches

(Bloomberg) -- For much of the pandemic, many U.S. travelers experienced delay-free flights as air traffic plummeted. With leisure travel roaring back, the skies are jamming up, nowhere more so than in Florida.

Thanks to private jet flights, space launches and severe weather, the Sunshine State is seeing its worst gridlock in years. Airline officials and federal regulators met this week in Florida to address the problem.

The increased delays are testing an aviation system that has faced Covid-19-related upheavals for both airline employees and federal air-traffic controllers for more than two years. Carriers including JetBlue Airways Corp., Spirit Airlines Inc. and Frontier Airlines, hungry to grow after years of red ink, are having to reduce Florida flights this summer despite growing demand.

The air-traffic system is essentially out of practice responding to peaks in demand, said John Hansman, an aerospace professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who has researched delays and the air-traffic system.

"I wouldn't be surprised if, as traffic levels come up and also as we move into the convective season in other parts of the country, that you might see a similar increase in delays" in other regions, Hansman said.

The disruptions in Florida have left thousands of passengers scrambling for alternate flights or paying for extra hotel stays and meals. JetBlue canceled flights at the both the start and conclusion of a trip to Florida for Beth Powell of West Virginia, who was traveling from Washington, D.C., to Fort Myers, with her husband and two children, she said in an interview.

"We got it on both ends," Powell said.

Even with some airlines expecting to temper Florida growth plans, aviation groups told the Federal Aviation Administration during two days of "productive" meetings Tuesday and Wednesday that "demand will continue to increase past 2019 levels," the FAA said in an emailed statement.

Data from the FAA's Jacksonville Center, which oversees flights that cross over the northern half of Florida, show that the area has seen more traffic growth this year than any such facility in the country.

Total flights handled by all of the FAA's 22 air-traffic centers in the U.S. were down 7% in the first three months this year compared to the same period in 2019. By contrast, Jacksonville Center recorded a 5% increase.

The facility reported 8,935 delays that lasted more than 543,000 minutes -- the cumulative equivalent of more than a year -- in March alone. That's the third-highest number of delays at any FAA Center since 2017 and the most since the start of the pandemic, according to FAA data. Delays have been elevated in the region since October.

Charter operations and private flights are driving the bulk of the flight increase. At Palm Beach International Airport, private and charter flights in March jumped 65% to 12,239, compared to 7,412 in 2019.

Private jet traffic picked up during the pandemic as consumers avoided packed commercial jets, said Peter Maestrales, chief executive officer of charter broker Airstream Jets.

"Palm Beach was typically a pretty quiet airport," Maestrales said. "Now it's unbelievable the departure delays, and just the amount of aircraft parked on the tarmac out there."

Controllers have also had to contend with thunderstorms, nearby military flights and rocket launches. The FAA must close hundreds of miles during a launch from Cape Canaveral, where Elon Musk's SpaceX has launched ten of its Falcon 9 missiles. There have been 17 launches in total from the complex this year so far, on pace for the most in decades.

"The combination of these factors leaves little margin for the system to absorb flight delays," the FAA said in an emailed statement.

The agency will develop a "playbook" similar to what it uses in the more congested New York skies to help airlines plan for delays and it will encourage the use of alternate flight routes as a way to limit disruptions.

The FAA also said it will boost the authorized staffing levels at Jacksonville Center. It currently has a relatively low level of fully certified controllers, but is within guidelines, according to FAA data. It can take years to train new controllers.

The agency also asked airlines and other aviation groups to provide more advance warning of expected traffic growth, it said.

"It's simply that their traffic control is an unsustainable thing," Frontier Chief Executive Officer Barry Biffle said on an April 28 conference call. "We're really excited that the FAA is stepping in knee deep on this."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/florida-flights-face-worst-delays-134026976.html

Quote from: MusicMan on April 26, 2022, 08:44:58 AM
"I saw on the news this weekend that all three NYC Metro airports are undergoing major renovation projects."

Does this have anything to do with Biden's infrastructure plan?

Zero. All three were in work in some way prior to Biden (and in some cases Trump) taking office.

That FAA southeastern ATC is is actually located over in Hilliard.

Quote from: SirJax on May 05, 2022, 09:39:46 PM
That FAA southeastern ATC is is actually located over in Hilliard.

True. But the FAA identifies it as the "Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center" with an address in Hilliard, Florida.

^Literally, I don't think ANY of the ATC Centers are actually in the cities they're named for except Miami:

Jacksonville is in Hilliard
Atlanta is in Hampton
DC is in Leesburg, VA
NYC is out on Long Island next to the Islip airport
Boston is in Nashua, NH

JetBlue's JAX-LAX hit the can:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/jetblue-route-cuts-nyc-florida/

To me it was an odd route to begin with. JetBlue isn't hugely competitive as an LAX hub, and I felt like they were a ways away from being competitive there.

Quote from: Steve on August 15, 2022, 09:21:58 AM
JetBlue's JAX-LAX hit the can:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/jetblue-route-cuts-nyc-florida/

To me it was an odd route to begin with. JetBlue isn't hugely competitive as an LAX hub, and I felt like they were a ways away from being competitive there.

I think the Newark flight was also axed.

Quote from: Snaketoz on August 15, 2022, 07:52:57 PM

Quote from: Steve on August 15, 2022, 09:21:58 AM
JetBlue's JAX-LAX hit the can:

https://thepointsguy.com/news/jetblue-route-cuts-nyc-florida/

To me it was an odd route to begin with. JetBlue isn't hugely competitive as an LAX hub, and I felt like they were a ways away from being competitive there.

I think the Newark flight was also axed.

Yep. I think the EWR stuff may also be related to them divesting gates at EWR as a potential condition of the Spirit Merger.

Side note....I have no idea what JetBlue is doing. Why they'd want to expand significantly at Newark makes zero sense, given their massive presence at JFK. JFK and EWR serve similar purposes - both are a bit from Manhattan, both are international capable, etc. Every other airline either has a significant presence at one or the other; no one has a significant presence at both. LGA is different as there are a couple airlines that have hubs at both LGA and either JFK or EWR (Delta and American come to mind). That and the desperation to buy Spirit, an airline that really doesn't harmonize well with them is mind boggling.

Quote from: Steve on August 16, 2022, 08:58:09 AM
That and the desperation to buy Spirit, an airline that really doesn't harmonize well with them is mind boggling.

The Spirit purchase is simply about Airbus aircraft and pilots. Spirit has 181 Airbus 320 Family aircraft and another 130 on order.  JetBlue is an all Airbus fleet and Airbus' 320 order book is sold out through 2026-2027.

Yeah the JetBlue delays have been maddening. And many have not been weather related. It was things like not having available gates or pilots maxing out their hours of flight time. But what's really messed up is the JFK transfers to American Airlines flights. AA is in a different terminal but the Airtrain is no use because its far and they have to go through security again so a minor delay is really problematic for passengers. Numerous times getting off at JFK have we been asked to make room for panicked travelers desperate to make the shuttle to take them to the AA gates.

A shame to lose those Newark and LAX flights. Those Newark flights were always full and with a lot of Southern Californians considering moving to Florida losing that non-stop will be a missed opportunity. I'm hopeful Breeze and possibly Avelo will see this and capitalize with West coast flights of their own.

Breeze has announced new non stops from Jax to Las Vegas.

QuoteThe Las Vegas flight leaves at 9:50 a.m. and arrives at 11:50 a.m. Flights from Las Vegas leave at 12:30 p.m. and arrive at 8 p.m. Fares will be as low as $122.

Help me out here.  The flight from Jax to LV is 4 hours (adjusting for the 2 hour time zone differential).  But the return flights are 5.5 hours?  How can that be if they are nonstop.  Usually, east bound flights are shorter due to prevailing tail winds, to boot.

The raw flight time from Jax to Vegas is 5 hours.  The return trip is about 4.5 hours.

Looks like Breeze is going to be the next to try the JAX-LAX route that no one can seem to make work:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/feb/14/breeze-airlines-launching-nonstop-service-from-jacksonville-to-los-angeles/

Delta tried it about a decade ago, and JetBlue just tried it recently. No luck for them.

Breeze Airlines should have no problem having success with these flights. The issue with the JAX-LAX flights offered by JetBlue wasn't demand but because of the pilot shortage right after the pandemic had them reevaluate flights and they made a lot more money selling Mint premium level seats for their flights out of their traditional hubs in New York, Boston, Ft. Lauderdale, and Orlando.

Breeze Airways shouldn't have that issue. Hopefully this will open the door for non-stop JAX-SFO flights in the future.

JAX-PHX too.

Does anyone know what aircraft will be used for the LA flight?

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 14, 2023, 07:32:00 PM
Does anyone know what aircraft will be used for the LA flight?

Airbus A220-300

Quote from: jaxdan3 on February 14, 2023, 08:44:12 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 14, 2023, 07:32:00 PM
Does anyone know what aircraft will be used for the LA flight?

Airbus A220-300

The A220 is a home run for airlines in that market. Since the regional jets are at the edge of range for a flight like that, most airlines have to run a plane that's about 150 seats, which makes the economics tough. The A220-100 (at least in Delta's config) seats 108, and can make the flight with ease.

Now, I hadn't heard the reason JetBlue dumped JAX-LAX - the pilot thing absolutely could be the reason.

In terms of routes I want to see JAX get, tops on my list would be Delta running a JAX-SLC flight. They likely won't add while SLC is a little gate constrained (they're at a weird phase in their airport rebuilt and are using bus gates for some flights), but this would be REALLY nice for west coast connections.

Completely unrelated to the new flights, but related to JAX and Delta: Two of the SkyClub employees told me that Delta is going to be moving their gates to the new Concourse B once completed. Not sure if they plan to take all 6 gates (which would be a +2 from today) or split it with someone that needs 1-2 gates, but noteworthy.

They also said they'll be building a new SkyClub in that concourse too, which is awesome for Delta folks.

Maybe if Breeze is sticking around for the long haul (lol) they take the other two?

A new SkyClub sounds like it'd be real nice, especially if it's conveniently placed near Delta-specific gates. With the security area expansion the existing SkyClub looks like it'll be in kind of an awkward position anyway.

I believe American is slated to take four of the gates in Concourse B.

Quote from: JAX_ASD on February 15, 2023, 12:15:38 PM
I believe American is slated to take four of the gates in Concourse B.

If that's the case then one of our sources is wrong haha!

Concourse B will be 6 gates. Delta has 4 now, and I believe AA has 4 as well down Concourse C.

Steve, your tact impresses me.

Quote from: Steve on February 15, 2023, 07:50:26 AM

Quote from: jaxdan3 on February 14, 2023, 08:44:12 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 14, 2023, 07:32:00 PM
Does anyone know what aircraft will be used for the LA flight?

Airbus A220-300

The A220 is a home run for airlines in that market. Since the regional jets are at the edge of range for a flight like that, most airlines have to run a plane that's about 150 seats, which makes the economics tough. The A220-100 (at least in Delta's config) seats 108, and can make the flight with ease.

Now, I hadn't heard the reason JetBlue dumped JAX-LAX - the pilot thing absolutely could be the reason.

In terms of routes I want to see JAX get, tops on my list would be Delta running a JAX-SLC flight. They likely won't add while SLC is a little gate constrained (they're at a weird phase in their airport rebuilt and are using bus gates for some flights), but this would be REALLY nice for west coast connections.

The JetBlue LAX direct was just as empty as the previous Delta flight, of which I flew almost weekly (the red-eye return absolutely sucked on both routes).   

Now that the route has failed with two different carries, I have to agree that the SLC direct would be the best option for Delta fliers out of Jax looking to connect to the West Coast.  Although, there are so many West Coast combos/connectors out of direct flights from Jax to ATL and Detroit (the old Northwest routes), that I have to believe that a direct Jax to SLC is low on the priority list.  When flying to the West Coast now, I'm using the Detroit route to avoid the scourge that ATL has become since the pandemic started (not that it was previously a cake walk where you never missed connecting flights before the pandemic).

A little double-speak but I could also see Delta taking over the entire new concourse with an expanded Delta Sky Club and adding at least 6-8 more direct flights to existing hubs in NYC, SLC, Minneapolis and Detroit. 

My late stepfather, a former Northwest and Delta pilot, is likely rolling in his grave with how much Delta's pilots pay has increased since he was forced to retire at age 60.  He would have loved to bank 5 more years of good earnings (now the FAA is even considering raising the retirement age again to 67). The pilot shortage thing is a real problem for airlines right now.

Quote from: fieldafm on February 15, 2023, 03:25:04 PM

Quote from: Steve on February 15, 2023, 07:50:26 AM

Quote from: jaxdan3 on February 14, 2023, 08:44:12 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 14, 2023, 07:32:00 PM
Does anyone know what aircraft will be used for the LA flight?

Airbus A220-300

The A220 is a home run for airlines in that market. Since the regional jets are at the edge of range for a flight like that, most airlines have to run a plane that's about 150 seats, which makes the economics tough. The A220-100 (at least in Delta's config) seats 108, and can make the flight with ease.

Now, I hadn't heard the reason JetBlue dumped JAX-LAX - the pilot thing absolutely could be the reason.

In terms of routes I want to see JAX get, tops on my list would be Delta running a JAX-SLC flight. They likely won't add while SLC is a little gate constrained (they're at a weird phase in their airport rebuilt and are using bus gates for some flights), but this would be REALLY nice for west coast connections.

The JetBlue LAX direct was just as empty as the previous Delta flight, of which I flew almost weekly (the red-eye return absolutely sucked on both routes).   

Now that the route has failed with two different carries, I have to agree that the SLC direct would be the best option for Delta fliers out of Jax looking to connect to the West Coast.  Although, there are so many West Coast combos/connectors out of direct flights from Jax to ATL and Detroit (the old Northwest routes), that I have to believe that a direct Jax to SLC is low on the priority list.  When flying to the West Coast now, I'm using the Detroit route to avoid the scourge that ATL has become since the pandemic started (not that it was previously a cake walk where you never missed connecting flights before the pandemic).

A little double-speak but I could also see Delta taking over the entire new concourse with an expanded Delta Sky Club and adding at least 6-8 more direct flights to existing hubs in NYC, SLC, Minneapolis and Detroit. 

My late stepfather, a former Northwest and Delta pilot, is likely rolling in his grave with how much Delta's pilots pay has increased since he was forced to retire at age 60.  He would have loved to bank 5 more years of good earnings (now the FAA is even considering raising the retirement age again to 67). The pilot shortage thing is a real problem for airlines right now.

I'd love to see Delta take all 6 gates for sure! The timing would line up nicely as SLC's construction will be largely complete in late 2024. Delta did just re-up their lease with SLC so they aren't going anywhere.

Where the SLC connection would be super nice is with mid-sized cities on the west coast. A perfect example is Boise, where they have no ATL directs from there, and we only have DTW and Seasonally, MSP. Thus, it's a two-stop itinerary.

Quote from: fieldafm on February 15, 2023, 03:25:04 PM

Quote from: Steve on February 15, 2023, 07:50:26 AM

Quote from: jaxdan3 on February 14, 2023, 08:44:12 PM

Quote from: Snaketoz on February 14, 2023, 07:32:00 PM
Does anyone know what aircraft will be used for the LA flight?

Airbus A220-300

The A220 is a home run for airlines in that market. Since the regional jets are at the edge of range for a flight like that, most airlines have to run a plane that's about 150 seats, which makes the economics tough. The A220-100 (at least in Delta's config) seats 108, and can make the flight with ease.

Now, I hadn't heard the reason JetBlue dumped JAX-LAX - the pilot thing absolutely could be the reason.

In terms of routes I want to see JAX get, tops on my list would be Delta running a JAX-SLC flight. They likely won't add while SLC is a little gate constrained (they're at a weird phase in their airport rebuilt and are using bus gates for some flights), but this would be REALLY nice for west coast connections.

The JetBlue LAX direct was just as empty as the previous Delta flight, of which I flew almost weekly (the red-eye return absolutely sucked on both routes).   

Now that the route has failed with two different carries, I have to agree that the SLC direct would be the best option for Delta fliers out of Jax looking to connect to the West Coast.  Although, there are so many West Coast combos/connectors out of direct flights from Jax to ATL and Detroit (the old Northwest routes), that I have to believe that a direct Jax to SLC is low on the priority list.  When flying to the West Coast now, I'm using the Detroit route to avoid the scourge that ATL has become since the pandemic started (not that it was previously a cake walk where you never missed connecting flights before the pandemic).

A little double-speak but I could also see Delta taking over the entire new concourse with an expanded Delta Sky Club and adding at least 6-8 more direct flights to existing hubs in NYC, SLC, Minneapolis and Detroit. 

My late stepfather, a former Northwest and Delta pilot, is likely rolling in his grave with how much Delta's pilots pay has increased since he was forced to retire at age 60.  He would have loved to bank 5 more years of good earnings (now the FAA is even considering raising the retirement age again to 67). The pilot shortage thing is a real problem for airlines right now.

Would love a direct to SLC.  Also wished we had more direct flights to Denver. Heading to Snowbird/Alta next weekend but as usual, gotta make the stop in ATL first

Southwest, United and Frontier all have nonstop service to Denver. United's are daily.

I'd also like a SLC flight.  I once travelled to Eugene, Or and had to fly 2 stop, the second thru SLC.  A very efficient airport.

Quote from: JAX_ASD on February 16, 2023, 01:52:13 PM
Southwest, United and Frontier all have nonstop service to Denver. United's are daily.

Yeah but Delta is my preferred airline. I've flown the United route to Denver a few times and don't mind United. Timing matters though and only having one time per-day for that airline is a bummer as sometimes it just doesn't work. 

St Augustine Airport (NEFL Regional Airport) potentially taking another shot at commercial service with a low cost carrier. Indications are it would be Avelo Airlines.

https://historiccity.com/2023/staugustine/news/a-new-low-cost-airline-wants-to-bring-passenger-service-to-st-augustine-141207

Hm...

QuoteThe Airport Authority received a grant for $700,000 from the U.S. Department of Transportation and a promise for $300,000 from the St Johns County Visitors and Convention Bureau to facilitate air service to Charlotte, North Carolina.  However, that money has not been spent because no airline has come forward to provide that service yet. It was thought that American Airlines would step forward because it has a hub in Charlotte.

"The grant is still active; it's just that no one is using it," Wuellner said.

That's apparently unrelated from

QuoteThe agenda documents show that the carrier is interested in a total of nine flights per week between St Augustine and New Haven, Connecticut; Wilmington, Delaware; and Raleigh/Durham, North Carolina.

I don't think St Augustine is a great market for a start-up airline.  Too many well healed people with enough money to take a legacy carrier.  I'm not well healed, but I'm leary of them as well.  Give me Delta anyday.

^ It's been discussed here before but this area doesn't really seem all that suited for more than one metro area passenger airport. Especially in a couple years once Concourse B is built and airlines like Avelo have space in the existing concourses, what's really going to be the point of a secondary airport with fewer amenities and worse access to most of the region? Even if they spend however much money building a road all the way to I-95, I'm not convinced that people would prefer flying into NFRA vs JAX. It seems like we'd be much better served finding better ways to get people from the airport to downtown and then to St. Augustine, whether that's bus/coach at first or rail later.

Definitely agree. This metro needs to grow a bit more, IMO.

I'd argue more than a bit. There probably needs to be another half million residents in the southern half or so of the metro area (say, St. Johns County, south Duval, maybe a bit of Flagler or Putnam) before having a real commercial operation that isn't constantly being propped up by these grants or with short-term attempts. Less than that and it seems hard-pressed to bother vs just flying into JAX.

I agree. A bit would fall between 500k and 1 million. Even with that, JAX is a small airport that is pretty easy to get in and out. It has a lot of room for expansion.

Welp, so much for those new Avelo Airline flights coming to St. Augustine. Looks like those flights are heading to Orlando instead.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/aviation-board-executive-director-of-airport-in-st-augustine/77-221a0ff9-39af-4492-a03d-cc1f0238d367

I would have loved for NE Florida Regional Airport to have gotten those flights. It's one of the fastest growing regions in the country with an established and increasingly popular tourism sector. The infrastructure is already in place. Most of the destinations were new to the area and wouldn't cannibalize existing JAX routes and there was promotionally money just sitting there to promote it from the failed attempts at gaining American Airline flights.

I get that fans of this thread would rather JAX got these flights instead, but let's say the subsidies were not enough to warrant the St. Augustine service long-term, they could just transfer all those flights or the flights with the most demand over the JAX just like what Frontier Airlines did when they got out of St. Augustine. Plus Concourse B in JAX would be closer to completion making it easier to take in more of those flights by that time.

Truly a blown opportunity. Whether that alone was enough to warrant a long-time airport director to lose his job is another thing. 

UST is in a tough spot. If travelers in the southern catchment of UST's potential market want want super cheap discount airfares to just about every conceivable destination they can drive to Sanford in under 90 minutes, while those in the north are really close to JAX.

Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on March 10, 2023, 03:16:40 PM
Welp, so much for those new Avelo Airline flights coming to St. Augustine. Looks like those flights are heading to Orlando instead.

That last line in the article was really poorly worded. UST may not get the service and Avelo indeed announced more flights to Orlando, but they didn't just "announce(d) this week that its new Florida city will be Orlando... not St. Augustine." They had previously announced flights to Orlando and have now added more.

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 13, 2023, 07:08:29 AM

Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on March 10, 2023, 03:16:40 PM
Welp, so much for those new Avelo Airline flights coming to St. Augustine. Looks like those flights are heading to Orlando instead.

That last line in the article was really poorly worded. UST may not get the service and Avelo indeed announced more flights to Orlando, but they didn't just "announce(d) this week that its new Florida city will be Orlando... not St. Augustine." They had previously announced flights to Orlando and have now added more.

Avelo announced today that they're preparing to move on from St. Augustine (bolded for emphasis).

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/03/16/avelo-airlines-not-close-to-deal-with-st-augustine.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_28&cx_artPos=1#cxrecs_s

QuoteAlthough St. Johns County Airport Authority board members have expressed some amount of interest in having Avelo Airlines start commercial service, there's no imminent agreement, according to the airline.

In a statement released this week, Avelo said it is very interested in flying through Northeast Florida Regional Airport but said that the recent board decision not to accept a contract presented last month jeopardizes future business.

At the special Feb. 27 Airport Authority meeting, board members expressed concerns over an agreement negotiated by Executive Director Ed Wuellner, who had orchestrated agreements with other airlines in recent years.

They voted to have board member Dennis Clarke work with attorney Chad Roberts on reviewing the details of the deal.

But not much progress has been made, according to Avelo.

"Unfortunately, the airport's Board of Directors rejected the previously agreed terms between Avelo and the airport," the airline's statement said. "Currently, we have not received a new proposal from the airport authority to review.

"As such, Avelo is preparing to move forward announcing other markets in St. Augustine's place. However, Avelo remains interested in serving the St. Augustine community in the future and we are ready to evaluate the airport's proposal when it is ready. To suggest we are close or have started negotiating again, is a stretch."

Avelo had been ready to announce a total of nine flights per week between St. Augustine and the following destinations: New Haven, Connecticut; Wilmington, Delaware; and Raleigh/Durham, North Carolina.

Since declining to authorize the deal with Avelo, the Airport Authority relieved Wuellner of his duties. Wuellner, who has worked at the airport for almost three decades, has a contract that runs into June.

Avelo was back in the news about a proposal for service at the St Aug airport, and then this came out. New service to Daytona Beach. If they are still seriously considering NEFRA then that's gonna be a lot of destinations in close proximity

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0HDYAHi5Dx3zsV434kgXSaAzq9snWQQU6CYaq3A6Vk6VJtJXofSmrKQjV9EZ1Po7vl&id=100044272337453&mibextid=qC1gEa

And now Melbourne Airport as well.

https://www.wesh.com/article/avelo-airlines-flights-melbourne-airport/43532624

Things aren't going well at Breeze. They just announced they're suspending 26 routes after Labor Day, including:

JAX-LAX
JAX-ORF (Norfolk)
JAX-PIT
JAX-RDU
JAX-CMH (Columbus, OH)

Unfortunately, not surprised, especially about LAX. That is a REALLY tough one to make work. I think the challenge is no one is ever happy about the flight time and there's nowhere near enough demand for 2X Daily.

Interesting stuff here:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/may/26/mark-vanloh-airport-growth-capital-projects-and-a-possible-london-flight/

- He confirmed what the folks working in the Delta SkyClub mentioned about a new lounge for Delta here.
- We're apparently the largest East Coast city without a London non-stop. Great if we can make it happen of course.
- Seems like the FAA is holding up the Concourse B construction. I was wondering why they hadn't started yet. I knew they green lit the steel for it.

No doubt a London route would be big but I don't think a major carrier would pick that route up. Tough when Delta has daily flights out of Atlanta, American daily flights  out of Charlotte and Virgin, Bristish Airways, AirFrance and Norse daily flights out of Orlando. 

It would need to be a discount/niche airline. I would think Norse would be a good one for Jax.

Quote from: Jagsdrew on May 26, 2023, 09:32:18 AM
No doubt a London route would be big but I don't think a major carrier would pick that route up. Tough when Delta has daily flights out of Atlanta, American daily flights  out of Charlotte and Virgin, Bristish Airways, AirFrance and Norse daily flights out of Orlando. 

It would need to be a discount/niche airline. I would think Norse would be a good one for Jax.

Could not echo this more. I bet there are several "viable" routes now. Being so close to large airports, with airlines that love hub & spoke, makes a point to point model for them out of JAX seem unlikely. Then it's a discount airline coming in, not only trying to establish a new route, but also trying to take away FF customers with some simple pleasures they have from status or a CC or whatever. Just makes it that much harder I feel like personally... Delta & AA love shuttling passengers from JAX.

Quote from: Jax_Developer on May 26, 2023, 09:45:02 AM
Could not echo this more. I bet there are several "viable" routes now. Being so close to large airports, with airlines that love hub & spoke, makes a point to point model for them out of JAX seem unlikely. Then it's a discount airline coming in, not only trying to establish a new route, but also trying to take away FF customers with some simple pleasures they have from status or a CC or whatever. Just makes it that much harder I feel like personally... Delta & AA love shuttling passengers from JAX.

Also, if a London route is established from a lesser known carrier, expect to land at Gatwick.

American Airlines will fly nonstop to Phoenix starting on November 5, according to the airport. Service is on an A320.

^That's a nice get. PHX is a big west coast hub for AA.

I've been waiting for Delta to announce SLC, though with SLC still a construction mess that may be a factor.

^SLC? Outside to University of Utah and the Morman church, what else is out there that would keep that route alive?

Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2023, 11:58:16 AM
^SLC? Outside to University of Utah and the Morman church, what else is out there that would keep that route alive?

Just people connecting, mainly. It's a big hub out west for Delta so it really helps for more mid-sized cities. For example, Delta doesn't have a nonstop from Boise to Atlanta, and with only 1-2 a day from Jacksonville to MSP and DTW, it means going from Jacksonville to Boise is a 2 stop trip.

Now I recognize there aren't many people going to Boise, but even for big cities that do have flights from Atlanta having Salt Lake City as an option is really nice.

Quote from: JAX_ASD on June 26, 2023, 11:32:41 AM
American Airlines will fly nonstop to Phoenix starting on November 5, according to the airport. Service is on an A320.

Times are perfect IMO!

The flight will depart Phoenix at 5 p.m. MST, landing in Jacksonville at 10:01 p.m. EST.
The return flight will depart Jacksonville at 8 a.m. EST, arriving at Phoenix at 9:37 a.m. MST.

This is perfect for working a half day out west then flying home or flying out first thing from JAX and working a half day out there.....even if your final isn't PHX. That flight is great for connections.

Prediction - AA will have no issues fill the plane as long as competitively priced.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jun/26/american-airlines-to-offer-nonstop-service-from-jacksonville-to-phoenix/

Quote from: Steve on June 26, 2023, 12:12:48 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2023, 11:58:16 AM
^SLC? Outside to University of Utah and the Morman church, what else is out there that would keep that route alive?

Just people connecting, mainly. It's a big hub out west for Delta so it really helps for more mid-sized cities. For example, Delta doesn't have a nonstop from Boise to Atlanta, and with only 1-2 a day from Jacksonville to MSP and DTW, it means going from Jacksonville to Boise is a 2 stop trip.

Now I recognize there aren't many people going to Boise, but even for big cities that do have flights from Atlanta having Salt Lake City as an option is really nice.

Gotcha. My nephew is a redshirt freshman Utes DB. I flew out there last year to visit. The airport is a good sized hub (even the part that is already complete). Very nice but be prepared to get your exercise walking through it lol.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2023, 11:58:16 AM
^SLC? Outside to University of Utah and the Morman church, what else is out there that would keep that route alive?

A few (10 or 12?) years ago, I flew thru ATL to SLC and rented a car to visit Grand Teton and Yellowstone. OK, that sort of trip won't sustain a route, but it does provide another reason to go to Salt Flats City (the Lake is drying up).

If you want to get to Lake Tahoe, the best option is to fly into Reno and make the 1 hour drive from there. Flying Delta, I had to stop in Atlanta and SLC. 2 stops for a domestic flight suuucks. But, sometimes unavoidable. Also flew to SLC earlier this Winter because, well, one does not miss a ski season where snowfall records are being shattered. If you like the outdoors, there are a million things to do year-round in the surrounding areas of SLC. So yes, there's much more to do there besides Mormons and the University of Utah.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 26, 2023, 02:32:42 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on June 26, 2023, 11:58:16 AM
^SLC? Outside to University of Utah and the Morman church, what else is out there that would keep that route alive?

A few (10 or 12?) years ago, I flew thru ATL to SLC and rented a car to visit Grand Teton and Yellowstone. OK, that sort of trip won't sustain a route, but it does provide another reason to go to Salt Flats City (the Lake is drying up).

I did this exact same trip around the same time or so!  The drive was as wonderful as the destination, going by Bear Lake and taking in Jackson Hole, Ogden, Logan and a national forest or two along the way.

I don't mind driving several hours in places like that (hard to beat the western US for dramatic landscapes - especially for us native flatlanders in Florida) and it gives you a lot more options on airports.

P.S. San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose or Sacramento are not too bad a drive to Lake Tahoe.  Again, scenic routes exist to make it extra pleasant.

Great news:  American has announced daily non-stop service to Phoenix beginning in Nov. 2023.  Also Breeze has announced service to Providence, RI.

Garage design contract to RS&H.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/jul/25/jaa-board-to-vote-on-parking-garage-design-contract-to-rsh/

A second Southern Grounds location opened this week pre-security at the airport. Much larger than the one in Concourse A: https://flickr.com/photos/jaxairport/albums/72177720310017445

Daily Record article today about the various retail updates ongoing at the airport.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/08/new-jacksonville-international-airport-offerings-bring-rebalance-local-flavor/

The JIA Community Redevelopment Area is being sunset after 30 years.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/aug/22/city-council-votes-to-terminate-jacksonville-international-airport-cra/

Here's the scoreboard, I guess:

QuoteThe board also published its 2023 End of Term Report summarizing the history and accomplishments of the CRA and outlining how the blight conditions in place three decades ago are remediated and how the goals of the CRA plan have been met.

Publicly funded projects within the CRA completed include construction of the JIA South Access Road, the Interstate 95/Airport Road Interchange project and the widening of North Main Street and Duval Road.

Private development completed in the CRA cited in the report includes the expansion of Coach Leatherware, Majestic Realty Company, the development of several hotels, the River City Marketplace retail center, substantial growth within the Jacksonville International Tradeport and Amazon.com opening.

The report notes that the taxable value of land within the CRA boundary increased from $214.19 million in the 1995-96 tax year to $1.86 billion in 2022-23 and that a total of $173.1 million in tax increment revenue has been collected for use in meeting the CRA plan goals.

An update on attempts to bring a London flight to JAX:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/nov/13/direct-jax-london-flights-in-discussion-for-more-than-five-years/

Doesn't sound like anything will happen until someone puts money up on the table.

Does anyone know who put money on the table in Charleston SC. I could see a combo of state funds, tourism councils and possibly Boeing but would be curious to know their approach.

Quote from: jaxjags on November 13, 2023, 02:58:51 PM
Does anyone know who put money on the table in Charleston SC. I could see a combo of state funds, tourism councils and possibly Boeing but would be curious to know their approach.

I don't see the state providing substantial funds, with several airports in Florida already providing direct service to Europe.

Doesn't the owner of the local football team also own a football (soccer) team in the UK? Maybe he has a few dollars waiting to be used.

Quote from: jaxjags on November 13, 2023, 02:58:51 PM
Does anyone know who put money on the table in Charleston SC. I could see a combo of state funds, tourism councils and possibly Boeing but would be curious to know their approach.

That is a seasonal route. The issue is and always will be Gate Tolls at LHR.. that airport is very unique worldwide for how expensive (& difficult) it is to secure gates there. Could always try to utilize Gatwick but that becomes even more of a stretch. The problem for JIA will always be the proximity of ATL & MCO. We are extremely unique (in a bad way) for modern flight planning.

Permits now under review for Concourse B.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2023/dec/26/building-permit-in-review-for-concourse-b-at-jacksonville-international-airport/

I wonder if JAA has a master plan for beyond Concourse B.  Going from 20 current gates to a max of 10 more (6 now and up to 4 more later per the article) will last a while but what then?  Seems the concourses A and C would have to be extended but wonder how close they can come to the runways.  I suppose another terminal could also be built one day... seems lots of airports have more than one nowadays.

(https://media.yourobserver.com/img/photos/2023/12/20/Concourse_B_VJ5bVFV_t1100.jpeg?31a214c4405663fd4bc7e33e8c8cedcc07d61559)

I've seen a full buildout map showing A and C extended and two wings added to B

Yes, from this Jaxson article (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/jacksonville-international-airports-expansion-plans) a few years ago:

(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-International-Airport/i-r4Sjtsp/0/44467296/L/Sect%201_Executive%20Summary_pgm_Page_436-L.jpg)

Breeze Airlines launching JAX-SAN Service twice a week on May 1. Not sure when we've ever had a non-stop to San Diego.

Quote from: Steve on January 09, 2024, 03:20:34 PM
Breeze Airlines launching JAX-SAN Service twice a week on May 1. Not sure when we've ever had a non-stop to San Diego.

Probably counting on Navy traffic

JAX sets new passenger record with 7.4 million passengers in 2023, surpassing 2019

QuoteA record number of passengers traveled through Jacksonville International Airport in 2023, with 7,446,084 people arriving or departing from the facility.

The Jacksonville Aviation Authority announced Jan. 24 that the traffic rose 13% from 2022, surpassing the record of 7,186,639 set in 2019.

In 2020, the coronavirus pandemic limited travel and traffic fell to 2.85 million. It rebounded to 5.04 million in 2021, 6.57 million in 2022 and 7.45 million in 2023.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/jan/26/jacksonville-international-airport-sets-passenger-traffic-record/

That number should continue to rise with the construction of Concourse B. Here's to more nonstop flights (and hopefully a London route)!

A London route would be nice but not sure how likely it is considering JAX couldn't keep a Toronto flight and Los Angeles is just a seasonal route... I'm more shocked there's no direct routes to the Caribbean (excluding SJU). I'd have to imagine a route to Cancun, Punta Cana, or Montego Bay could be successful, especially in high season. I know you can currently get there via ATL/CLT/FLL/MIA currently but a lot of time would be saved with a direct flight.

Airport and city officials broke ground this morning on the $340 million Concourse B:

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/05/10/concourse-b-2026-arrival.html

American Airlines will use 5 of the 6 gates when the new concourse opens in 2026.

Great to see this one finally break ground. I look forward to its completion and any new airport amenities that come along with it.

FYI, the entire center area past TSA has closed for construction of Concourse B. This includes The Club lounge which has also closed.

Bad news for Priority Pass members

Quote from: jaxdan3 on August 09, 2024, 07:04:01 AM
FYI, the entire center area past TSA has closed for construction of Concourse B. This includes The Club lounge which has also closed.

Wow: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/aug/08/jacksonville-international-airport-food-court-permanently-closed/

Surprised they wouldn't move The Club even temporarily. Leaving Delta as the only available lounge for two years seems like a misstep.

I'm not sure where else they'd put the Club. There's literally zero space there.

Plus this isn't exactly new news. This expansion plan was the plan the entire time, and when they built out The Club everyone involved knew that area would get ripped out.

Building out a temporary space for them to operate would likely be VERY cost prohibitive, since you need the food prep space, bar, plumbing for bathrooms, etc.

Isn't there only room for one new lounge in Concourse B (which would presumably be an Admirals Club)? If The Club was going away this whole time were they planning to go away for good?

Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2024, 03:41:25 PM
Isn't there only room for one new lounge in Concourse B (which would presumably be an Admirals Club)? If The Club was going away this whole time were they planning to go away for good?

No, the two lounges will be right at the entrance of Concourse B, upstairs from basically where the food court is now. One will be The Club, the other will be a relocated and expanded Delta SkyClub (JAA has confirmed both of them). Space-wise, it's basically at the confluence of all three concourses so easy access to all three.

AA nor JAA has announced an Admiral's Club. Remember, while they're going to take 5 gates, it's a net increase of 1 (they have 4 now).

Quote from: marcuscnelson on May 10, 2024, 11:32:18 AM
Airport and city officials broke ground this morning on the $340 million Concourse B:

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2024/05/10/concourse-b-2026-arrival.html

American Airlines will use 5 of the 6 gates when the new concourse opens in 2026.

Just wanted to note that the actual (vs. ceremonial) concourse B groundbreaking took place a couple weeks ago when they finally started tearing up the old ramp pavement where the previous concourse B used to be. The JAA claims the project will wrap up in 16 months or less. Personally, I'm a bit skeptical of this timeline but I guess we'll see.

If there's any project they need to speed up...it's the new garage! Going to be very painful during construction.

The garage should be underway soon. Last week, there were sign/barricades on the parking lot, announcing its closure in a week or two.

JIA will be a true international airport once again with nonstop service to Toronto starting next year

QuoteFive years after Air Canada bid adieu to Jacksonville, the airline is returning to Jacksonville International Airport with nonstop service to Toronto Pearson International Airport.

In a Sept. 12 release, JIA announced that the new Air Canada Express route would launch on May 22, 2025. According to the Air Canada website, that flight is from Toronto.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/news/2024/sep/12/air-canada-returning-to-jacksonville-with-nonstop-service-to-toronto/

JetBlue dropping Jax- Ft. Laurderdale flights.  In today's world, I find it quicker to drive this connection, myself.  Haven't figured the demand for this flight unless transferring in Ft. Lauderdale to other destinations.  Miami makes more sense given the greater number of international connections there and added travel time due to traffic between FTL and MIA.

QuoteJetBlue cuts more unprofitable routes, tweaks Europe flights

....JetBlue said it will cut flights from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, to Jacksonville, Florida; from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport to Austin, Texas; Houston, Texas; Miami; and Milwaukee, Wisconsin; and from Westchester, N.Y. and Milwaukee. It will also end service to San Jose, California....

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/12/04/jetblue-cuts-routes-europe-flights.html

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 04, 2024, 11:42:02 PM
JetBlue dropping Jax- Ft. Laurderdale flights.  In today's world, I find it quicker to drive this connection, myself.  Haven't figured the demand for this flight unless transferring in Ft. Lauderdale to other destinations.  Miami makes more since given the greater number of international connections there and added travel time due to traffic between FTL and MIA.

QuoteJetBlue cuts more unprofitable routes, tweaks Europe flights

....JetBlue said it will cut flights from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, to Jacksonville, Florida; from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport to Austin, Texas; Houston, Texas; Miami; and Milwaukee, Wisconsin; and from Westchester, N.Y. and Milwaukee. It will also end service to San Jose, California....

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/12/04/jetblue-cuts-routes-europe-flights.html

To your point, since MIA is an American hub and also gateway for a lot of international carriers air makes sense to there.

I think the rest of Florida is probably best served by rail. Even if Jax-Ft. Lauderdale was 4 hours, it would be worth it and WAY easier than flying.

As Brightline expands it would be nice for some friendly competition between them and Amtrak.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 04, 2024, 11:42:02 PM
JetBlue dropping Jax- Ft. Laurderdale flights.  In today's world, I find it quicker to drive this connection, myself.  Haven't figured the demand for this flight unless transferring in Ft. Lauderdale to other destinations.  Miami makes more since given the greater number of international connections there and added travel time due to traffic between FTL and MIA.

QuoteJetBlue cuts more unprofitable routes, tweaks Europe flights

....JetBlue said it will cut flights from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, to Jacksonville, Florida; from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport to Austin, Texas; Houston, Texas; Miami; and Milwaukee, Wisconsin; and from Westchester, N.Y. and Milwaukee. It will also end service to San Jose, California....

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/12/04/jetblue-cuts-routes-europe-flights.html

I'm sure that flight is only there because FLL is a hub for Jet Blue. Jet Blue has a limited presence at MIA and has a lot of domestic flights from PBI, but no international. There are direct Jet Blue flights from FLL to Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Nassau, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Ecuador, Cancun, Costa Rica, and Colombia. Jax must have not had enough people flying to those places to continue the direct flight.

Well I mean JetBlue has been steadily reducing flights at FLL.....but JetBlue is now the third carrier to not make JAX-FLL work. My point was more about that market in general.

Quote from: CityLife on December 05, 2024, 09:50:00 AM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on December 04, 2024, 11:42:02 PM
JetBlue dropping Jax- Ft. Laurderdale flights.  In today's world, I find it quicker to drive this connection, myself.  Haven't figured the demand for this flight unless transferring in Ft. Lauderdale to other destinations.  Miami makes more since given the greater number of international connections there and added travel time due to traffic between FTL and MIA.

QuoteJetBlue cuts more unprofitable routes, tweaks Europe flights

....JetBlue said it will cut flights from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, to Jacksonville, Florida; from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport to Austin, Texas; Houston, Texas; Miami; and Milwaukee, Wisconsin; and from Westchester, N.Y. and Milwaukee. It will also end service to San Jose, California....

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/12/04/jetblue-cuts-routes-europe-flights.html

I'm sure that flight is only there because FLL is a hub for Jet Blue. Jet Blue has a limited presence at MIA and has a lot of domestic flights from PBI, but no international. There are direct Jet Blue flights from FLL to Puerto Rico, Jamaica, Nassau, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Ecuador, Cancun, Costa Rica, and Colombia. Jax must have not had enough people flying to those places to continue the direct flight.

JetBlue used to be our go-to out of JAX, but since COVID, even their Northeast destinations increasingly required connections through FLL. E.g., you might get one direct flight option to BOS and 2 that connect via FLL. This seems likely to severely limit possible end destinations for JetBlue out of JAX.

25 years ago, FLL was the south Florida hub for Southwest and they had 7 roundtrip flights a day between JAX and FLL.  I just checked for flights from JAX to FLL and, after removing JetBlue, didn't find a single nonstop on any airline.  Quite a change over time.

With a former employer, we used to do the JAX-FLL for quick day meetings with clients in South Florida.  It was pretty convenient for that purpose.

Now, I just noticed that FLL is a Spirit hub. If Spirit circles the drain like is expected, then I think we could see a reshuffling of that market.

This new plane might bode well at some point for JIA to attract more international flights from further away, such as Europe.

QuoteHow the Airbus A321XLR is changing the air map of the world

.....The new flight to Nashville from Dublin is possible with a new, longer-range plane from Airbus: the A321XLR, or "Extra Long Range."

The derivative of the popular A321neo that debuted in 2017 can fly further than any other single-aisle plane on the market. Airbus also says it burns 30% less fuel per seat than previous-generation aircraft.

"It allows us to go to cities that we would not be able to take the risk on with a wide-body," said Reid Moody, chief strategy and planning officer at Aer Lingus, referring to the twin-aisle aircraft such as the Airbus A330 or Boeing 787 that are common on transatlantic flights....

https://www.cnn.com/travel/airbus-a321xlr-single-aisle-plane-transatlantic/index.html

Some good things for JAX:

1. Getting TSA's Touchless ID in the Spring: https://www.travelandleisure.com/tsa-touchless-id-coming-to-more-airports-11881930 . If you haven't used it, total game changer at the big hubs like ATL and JFK.
2. Return of The Club JAX and a (badly needed) larger Delta SkyClub coming. Both will be at the base of the Concourse B Extension so easy access to all gates.
3. AA is taking either 5 or 6 of the 6 new gates in Concourse B which is moving along and is supposed to open by the end of 2026. Now, unless they're planning on making JAX a Focus City (which I'd be shocked by), this is a net increase of 1 or 2 gates (they have 4 today). Curious who else picks up gates since even if AA takes all 6, that leaves 4 more not immediately spoken for.
4. New Garage is taking shape (thank God). Will be finished sometime in 2026. Of note, it's not so much a third garage, but it's going to be, in practice, an expansion on the existing garage. I should have taken pics when I was there Thursday, but you can see how the existing daily garage ramp structure will connect to both the existing and new garage.

^ Used Touchless ID on Monday in Salt Lake City - tried to use yesterday in Dallas but the "bouncer" wouldn't allow since it wasn't on my boarding pass